The All-In Cost of Car Dependency 2022: How Driving Wrecks Your Finances (Without You Noticing)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มี.ค. 2022
- How much does it really cost to own and drive a car as your primary mode of transportation? Are the costs of driving an electric car competitive with driving an internal combustion engine powered vehicle, once you factor in all the different expenses? Regardless of what you drive, the costs go far beyond just what you use in gas or electricity every day.
Gas prices are grabbing the headlines in 2022, but the costs of insurance, maintenance, and licensing and registration are significant too. This video will look at the true cost of driving, and how people misunderstand those costs when they're making the decision to drive on a day-to-day basis, or decisions on housing location or vehicle replacement on a macro time scale.
Other CityNerd Videos referenced:
- Mexico City-Queretaro High Speed Rail Race: • High Speed Rail vs. Ca...
- Toronto-Montreal High Speed Rail Race: • High Speed Rail vs. Ai...
- Dallas-Houston High Speed Rail Race: • High Speed Rail vs. Ai...
- Los Angeles-San Francisco High Speed Rail Race: • High Speed Rail vs. Ai...
- Portland Bike vs Bus vs Car Race: • Bike vs. Bus vs. Car i...
Resources:
- US Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Expenditure Survey
www.bls.gov/cex/home.htm
- NYC Vision Zero View vzv.nyc/
- Externalities of Driving graphic from jonathan_maus/sta...
- "Average Car Payment | Loan Statistics 2022" by Jenn Jones for Lending Tree, available at www.lendingtree.com/auto/debt...
- Edmunds.com depreciation infographic www.edmunds.com/car-buying/ho...
- "Car Insurance Calculator: Estimate the Cost of Car Insurance for You" by Mandy Sleight for MoneyGeek, available at www.moneygeek.com/insurance/a...
- "EVs Offer Big Savings Over Traditional Gas-Powered Cars" by Benjamin Preston for Consumer Reports, available at www.consumerreports.org/hybri...
- "How Much Should I Spend on a Car?" by Kat Tretina for Investopedia, available at www.investopedia.com/how-much...
Image Credits:
- Atlanta traffic for title Video by citi-flix from Pixabay
- LA traffic Video by Ronald Brown from Pixabay
- Shell gas prices CC BY-SA 3.0 us, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Montreal traffic videos Video by German Korb: www.pexels.com/video/footage-...
- Suburban sprawl By David Shankbone - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- LA Traffic Video by RODNAE Productions: www.pexels.com/video/drone-fo...
- Honda Dealership By Bassetts Honda - www.honda.wales, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Jiffy Lube By Ildar Sagdejev (Specious) - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Elephant car wash By Joe Mabel, CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
- Les Schwab Attribution-NonCommercial 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC 2.0)
www.flickr.com/photos/heyskin..."
- Gas station Video by German Korb: www.pexels.com/video/eye-leve...
- Police flashers Video by Kindel Media: www.pexels.com/video/video-of...
- Thumbnail (GMC Sierra) By Kevauto - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Music:
CityNerd background: Caipirinha in Hawaii by Carmen María and Edu Espinal (TH-cam music library)
Twitter: @nerd4cities
Instagram: @nerd4cities
Contact: nerd4cities@gmail.com - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I really hope we get part 2 of this video. This one being monetary, the other one being - as you alluded to - externalities.
The whole thing about sprawl ruining cities financially might also make a good related video.
From my professional experience, it's extremely hard to quantify externalities, not because they're unmeasurable, but they are often too damaging and too costly to be suitable for any CBA. Take for example the risk of death, bicycles and pedestrians can't kill others simply by moving, but cars can easily take one's life away, which is already more than $10 millions in federal calculations. Occupancy to road damages ratio by private cars are so bad that state's agencies often just ignore it to receive federal loans. The system is purposefully built to hide the true costs from everyone, so it's more than an individual problem, it's a social calamity.
@@tonysoviet3692 Sure, but given that CityNerd is someone with both a background in accounting and an interest in this sort of stuff, I for one would be really interested in what he has to say on the subject.
@@Taladar2003 Regarding the effects of sprawl, StrongTowns and City Beautiful are channels to look at, because they get into it in a big way. It turns out sprawl, and *especially* turning building space into parking space can really wreck municipal finances.
Yeah, my original idea was to do the whole thing in one video, but it quickly became clear that it was going to be waaaayyyyyy too long of a video. 12-15 minutes is about as much of me blathering on and on as I expect anyone to bother listening to.
This really illustrates how wrong it is to build car-dependent residential areas by default. It forces everybody, even those with low incomes, to spend huge amounts of money up-front just to function on a basic level.
Great work as always!
I think you're needed at the Eastern Front right now, bud.
intended, suburbs(car ones) are designed to not be accessible to minorities, or the intentional intent was
@@applesyrupgaming But now minorities live there so it’s okay right?
all by design
It gets even more insane in developing countries where they build social housing flats with many parking spots. If you are too poor to afford a house, you still have to afford a car? How?
I work in personal bankruptcy and after learning about the alternatives to car dependency, it breaks my heart to see people list their vehicle expenses upwards of $1,000.00/month between registration, maintenance, gas, insurance, parking costs, etc.
OMG, that is more than most people salaries here. We don't need a car to live here, but without one, life is tough from underfunded mass transit despite a lot of options, one has to choose, packed on overcrowded bus, ride a motorbike and get wet, or most expensive option and time to spend in traffic jam, cars. This is universal problem, we don't want to get to that point of absolute car dependencies, but out cities are developed into freeways and stroad hellscape.
Thanks to this channels and many others coming out to say how this madness need to stop.
While $1,000/month is a huge expense, have you tried to live the life without a car? In many areas of the country, can you really say it's practical?
@@ASmithee67 which is why cities should be designed so that you CAN live without owning a car. Yet people insist on designing cities that make it nearly impossible to live without one...
@@ASmithee67 Yes, and yes.
There are places where a car is essential. There are other places where it's a burden. And some places where it could go either way.
After many years of owning a car, I'm now living without one. I chose my neighborhood carefully, it's a mixed income neighborhood in a nice part of my city just outside downtown. After 2 years of not needing to drive my car anywhere, I got rid of it.
Today reminded me once again, what a good decision that was. I needed to go for some medical testing, I used a hide hail service. Coming home, I paid $12 for someone else to drive crowded urban streets and highways through a snowstorm, while I sat in the back. I didn't have to clear the snow off in a parking lot, didn't have to worry about skidding while changing lanes, didn't have to worry about kicking accumulated snow out of the wheel wells. [I did give the driver a larger than usual tip.] Considering I'm NOT paying $300 a month (gas, insurance, maintenance) for my 14 year old car, I'm happy.
That's an insane amount!
Great video! A few years back a coworker was bragging about "driving for free" now that their car was paid off. Even after I pointed out that only one cost of driving had been eliminated they insisted driving was now free since they no longer had to make a monthly payment. The fact at least four costs remained was totally ignored by this college educated person. No wonder our society is held hostage by the automobile.
Keep up the good work!
I ditch the car in 2020 and I still get laugh at I ride a bicycle work is a mile away Walmart is 2.5 miles away
I have kept complete records on my automobile since 1969. Every windshield wiper blade, every bottle of fuel injector cleaner and everything else. So I know that automobiles are very expensive. I did a financial class a few years ago at church and people could not believe that using my actual figures it cost $2 per mile to drive my car. Now my cost per Mile would be decreased because I don't spend my days driving around. On the other hand I bought the car used, did some of the maintenance myself, and live in an area where my insurance is cheap. But generally I have found it ranges from difficult to impossible to convince people how much they're spending on their automobiles. I believe that is their business but I think they would be much better able to manage their finances if they were realistic about what an automobile costs. I pointed out how it's always said that a person's biggest cost is their home. However since that is an appreciating asset and their automobile is depreciating, and they will own a large number of automobiles normally during their lifetime, the car wins by a mile so to speak.
I’ll think my car costs around 1,5-2€/km (a bit More than your calculations) because I barely use it, as I prefer using the bicycle. But I need a car as I am living in the countryside, so the financial decision to drive only gas counts. And that’s around 0,20€/km, so around $0.35/mile with European gas prices.
A $2 mile, at that!
@@sebastianr1204 Whould be Car-sharing of sharing your car an option?
A friend of mine once said that having a car, is like having a dumb son/daughter in Harvard...
@@sebastianr1204 "so in the final decision to drive only gas counts."
That's the logical flaw the video mentions at the start.
Wether you * need * to use a car or not; that is the amount it costs per km of driving. For you it might be worth the cost, but that doesn't change the formula.
The fact that I got two car commercials during this video is hilarious.
I got a car insurance and gas station commercial.
The super financially crippling element is when you live semi rural and you have to work urban. You can't drive into the city but you can't get public transit in the rural, so you have to pay for a car, insurance, parking AND a rail season ticket, but you can't afford to move because housing in the city is really expensive and the mortgage lender won't take into account that you'll save thousands by not travelling
That's the real cost. The cost to get to where the jobs are.
99% of American cities don't have rail transit.
There is no such thing as “car dependency”. Cars are what keep you from being dependent on anyone or anything else for transportation.
@@Vettel2011 As you drive on your government roads and curse the government not fixing potholes or the government not plowing roads in time, and park your car in government-subsidized parking spaces...
Sure, "not dependent", lol.
Oh, and parents then having to waste their lives driving their kids around, because the kids are dependent on someone with a car to get around their car-oriented suburbs...
@@mindstalk that’s why teens are allowed to drive at age 16 to begin with
As someone who has moved into the US on April, this is so very true.
In 10 years in Germany, my cost of transportation was the ticket for the entire public system in the area (not just the city) and that cost about the same (I was in one of the most expensive cities in Germany) than the gas of a new hybrid car (and I latter got a tax break for living far away from work, so it ended up being almost free, but even without that).
So when I tell people that they are "Oh, so it is no so different!".
I am sorry, what? What do you mean it is not so different? I have spent hours finding a decent second hand car and they all cost at least 15-20k (by decent meaning that the car is less than 10 years old and less than a 100k miles. Most cars I found are either >150k miles and/or >20 years for around $10k).
So, did you get your car for free?? Because for me it would have represented a huge cost on my monthly budget (I ended up buying a motorcycle).
On top of that is the insurance! Which here in the US is crazy expensive! How are insurances so expensive in a place in which everybody needs one?? Where is that famous "free market will create competition"??
And then finally, there is the gas.
But that is not all! You also have repairs! I have never had to pay when the metro broke down, but my coworker had to pay $5k the other day for a shift problem that his insurance didn't cover because it was not due to an accident.
When I was thinking about buying a car, a third of my monthly budget was allocated into "car stuff". But then you talk to Americans and most of them do not even realize how much they are really paying.
Same with healthcare, by the way. Yes, I pay directly $50 for the insurance, but the company is paying $450, that means that my health insurance costs $500, which is around five times as much as what my contribution to healthcare costed in Finland, for example. But somehow, Americans do not see those $500 as a tax, because in their head a tax and an insurance are two different things, but that is only true when the insurance is for something that you can realistically give up (like I can give up my insurance for mountain expeditions, or however it is called in English, that would cover my rescue in the mountains, because going to the mountains is not a matter of life or death to me, so I can skip that for a few months if I am strapped for money).
If I were to include transportation in the calculation of taxes (since in Germany and Finland I most ly pay them via taxes), I pay way more "taxes" in the US than I paid back in Europe.
Also very important: You pay for the road that you are driving, and the fact that so many people drive mean that either the government spends a lot of taxes on it, or they are shit. And at least in my city in the US, it seems that we have a combination of both. That cost is also a tax that raises up of people driving everywhere and for everything in massive pick up trucks.
This is correct. The real tax is higher in the US, it's just not called tax but it's costs that you HAVE to pay anyway so it might as well be.
Why did you move to the US after living a better life in Germany and Finland?
Used cars were a lot cheaper a few years ago. It would not be unrealistic to have paid between $3-5k for an "acceptable" vehicle. As the used and new car market get inflated in price, people are stuck with $300/mo+ payments if they want to get anything.
I agree with you on pretty much everything. We seem to ignore added costs of living because they are not taxes, and because of this we feel that it is an optional payment that we choose to give.
@@AwesomeTea I was very lucky to get a decent vehicle for $5k with no down payment last year. Despite that, it's 20 years old, has 215k miles, and I end up paying well over $6k a year on it. It's insanity. I'd so rather spend $400 a month on public transport and be able to get everywhere I need to (tho I imagine it wouldn't even be that expensive in western European nations).
Also really curious why you moved to the US after 10 years in Germany/Finland? We just spent 2 years in Germany for work and now we’re back and feel trapped bc we have no other option than to pay up, and I’m also frustrated by the costs 😔
America: Land of the free except when you need to get somewhere.
I woke up to real freedom of living when I moved to Germany. I'm back now in the US but I loved every minute of it. I lived in Mainz. Hoping to go back to Germany or The Netherlands as an expat.
When I talk to the average American they say "how can you be free if you need to take a train or bus?" or "I'm free to travel wherever I want with my car". I blame it mainly to ignorance and the fact they simply haven't experienced real commuting freedoms.
I think people need to understand that the costs for driving depend on where you live and how much you use. This whole "You need a car to go anywhere" mindset that has become so common in an American and even Canadian society only increases our reliance on fossil fuels (which of course, doesn't make the environmental situation any better) and shuts down public transit ideas. People who prefer to drive rather than take transit say they do it because transit in their area sucks. Unbeknownst to them, them adding to the idea that only a car-centric society is possible is part of the problem. The car companies profit, freight companies profit by having control of the rails, and public transit and the environment suffers.
People tend to forget that trains united the country first BEFORE highways did. And the size of this country is no excuse for wanting better unifying transit, cause look at China
You're exactly right. It's a snake-eating-its-own-tail situation. Why do you drive so much? Because transit sucks. Why does transit suck? Because there's no funding/demand for it. Why is there no funding/demand for it? Because everyone just drives everywhere. Why does everyone drive everywhere? Because transit sucks. and on, and on it goes.
Certain cities in Europe like Paris and Berlin have decided to just break the cycle by force, which I'm pretty sure is what it's going to take. The only problem is that governments in Europe tend to have more ability to make unilateral decisions when they have majority power.
I think both of you are missing the point that the infrastructure to go carless it's just not there. And its not even bikes im talking abt. I can't even leave my small sliver of a suburb w/o risking my life bc the only way out is a road infested with cars with no sidewalks. Also hi Avery. Your point is good, and it would be ideal, but it just isn't as easy.
@@Bizcachita That's exactly the point. The infrastructure isn't there *because* going carless isn't an option *because* the infrastructure isn't there. It's a snake eating its own tail.
Did I see you on Stampylonghead's channel? We watch the same stuff.
@@PalmelaHanderson oh¡ ty that makes more sense now 🐍
They do have a point in that most of the benefits of walkable/bikable design only kicks in when it's good enough that people start opting out of car ownership.
I've been waiting decades for this tipping point to happen
@@CityNerd I gave up waiting and moved to Germany to a small village on the Swiss French border. Bought a super cheap used car for the rare occasions I just can't go by public transit but right now I'm averaging about 600 miles by car per year.
I still can't use a bike 2 seasons out of the year. Others may be able to bike in the snow, but the plowing here is only good enough to keep one lane on the side streets open and during the summer I have a medical condition that makes me prone to fainting in the heat. I don't even walk when it's hot and humid (Milwaukee.) It's an impractical way to get my groceries home, and the only other thing I regularly go to is doctor appointments, and I need to be able to do that even if it's hot outside. The closest bus stop is too far for my medical condition. I have to have the car and the sunk costs mean that even in nice weather adding $5 to get to the doctor and back on the bus instead of just using a little of the gas in my car that's already there is an added expense that doesn't work for me.
I bought my first car from a fully able bodied friend who was living on the blue line in Chicago and worked downtown. He thought he could live carless. The car took my 4.5 hours daily of bus commuting down to a good paying suburban job to 50 minutes. He lived less than six months before he bought a replacement car, for all the things he couldn't do even in Chicago without a car at the ready. It would be reasonable to make it so we need our cars less often, but I doubt that compromise will be made.
@@CityNerd we'll be dead before it does
The sad part is it's used as an excuse to not even start the process.
I happened upon this by accident. I'm a Brit and have visited the US three times. I was absolutely staggered by the hypermobility of your culture. Everyone seemed to be in motion and the sight of a freeway is just beyond belief. How do you all earn a a living, work, look after your kids, and things if you are all busy driving from A to B as fast as you can and then back from B to A as fast as you can? The first thing I saw as my plane came in to land was an eight-lane highway, right in the middle of a city, Philadelphia! People are pretty car-fixated in the UK, too, but we have nothing on you Americans. One thing is certain - it won't be for much longer.
The car helps speed things up
@@user-td7xf3gz4l not if everyone uses one. They're a fundamentally inefficient use of space and are their own Achilles heel in large quantities.
Good don't come here again
@@user-td7xf3gz4l that's the funniest thing I heard all day! Cars are a huge time suck most of the time. The only time someone can go fast in a car without hitting traffic is probably between 10pm and 5am. At least in my city.
@@deathlarsen7502 Americans, they love freedom so much they don't want anyone with a different view in their country!
I’ve never driven and am 39. If you calculate the cash I’ve saved it seems pretty crazy. It’s also forced me to love taking on average 17,000 steps a day and loving being active. Car free is amazing
I Lived in LA for 6 years, and a skateboard was my transportation everywhere, other than walking. Grocery - 2 blocks away. Dentist - 1 mile, doctor - 1.5 miles, work - 1 mile, pharmacy - block away, etc etc. It can be done.
Lucky
There's also the extra time it takes to get to places.
@@MrPAULONEAL In London there's little time saving by having a car. I do loose time travelling by train but if I calculate the hours I've lost vs the money I've saved, it's quite insane
@@ManchurianCounterweight 20 minutes drive just to get to the first store!! Country living is not as charming as it seems on paper. I would love to ditch my car and move.
I lived for a number of years in NYC after college. I would get asked by friends back home how I could afford living in such an expensive city working entry-level-type jobs? The answer was pretty much: My High Rent + Metrocard = Your Rent + Your Car(s)
Interesting comparison
My wife lived in NYC about 18 years ago and her rent was about 4,500 per month. My house cost us 1,200 per month and I have not had a car payment in years. Not everyone drives an expensive high end car. I usually get about 16 out of my cars. Cars are expensive if you want them to be. NYC is expensive. I have lots of friends who live there and their cost of housing is insane.
@@mtadams2009 I don't know if you meant $4500 split between roommates or $4500 by herself, but even today you can definitely find an NYC apartment for a fraction of that cost. The cost of housing in NYC is insane, yes, but it's definitely not a requirement to pay that much.
@@joshs5843 That was what she paid. Sharing an apartment with others is fine when you are young is fine but as you get older and have a family it’s no go. I guess her apartment cost is like the numbers he is giving to own a car way over the top. I have never paid the numbers he is giving but then again I repair my own and never buy new. Now with the pandemic who knows everything has gone off the rails. I myself would rather die than live in a city so having a car is a necessity.
@@mtadams2009 18 years ago I lived in a 3 bedroom penthouse apartment with a wrap-around terrace on the Upper West Side in Manhattan (albeit in a kind of crappy building) for $3600 (split three ways with roommates). It was a prime location just a block from the subway and 2 blocks from Central Park. $4500 must have been an amazing apartment back then. Lots of apples-to-oranges comparisons in your response: I'm talking about costs when you're young and starting out...you're talking about costs when you're established with a family. I'm also guessing your $1200 house is a mortgage payment you've been locked into for years. My $1200 rent + Metrocard (I forget what they cost back then, but I could get it pre-taxed through my paycheck) is well inline with what my friends were paying for their $700-ish apartments (without roommates) + $200 car payment + $100 insurance + gas + oil changes + maintenance (back in 2004).
I really appreciate your takes on car free/car light living. You don't have to live in New York City to avoid owning a car, but you absolutely do have to be creative/willing to suffer for the bit of not owning a car in almost every city in the US.
I'd love a video highlighting tips/tricks of living without a car, or a top ten of "unexpectedly" car-free ready cities in the US. Everyone knows you can live without a car in NYC, Chicago and San Francisco - I'd love to see some love for smaller scale cities that still make living without a car easy
Many micro-urban college cities. Champaign-Urbana is great!
I lived near downtown Cincinnati without a car for years, mostly to the horror of friends and coworkers. It can definitely be done in medium sized cities, but the viable areas to live will be very limited. Most public transit in America is "spoke and wheel" so you better live where the spokes combine. It definitely feels like the choice is live in a high density area for much higher rent but little transit cost. Or live in a cheaper area and buy a car.
It depends on a lot of factors - but in many occupations, not having a car would make it either impractical or take far too long to get to work. If you work from home or somewhere near limited public transportation in most areas, you might be fine... but the rest of the time, it's going to be impractical to take a bus to downtown, transfer, and then take another bus, totaling to an hour of commute instead of 10 minutes.
Another way it's tougher (outside of cities!) is for shopping - the way Americans tend to shop for food especially, where it's buying for a week or more at a time, really needs a car. If in a city or right next to some grocery stores that could change to buying for a day or two at a time, but that's something that I think is a lot tougher in most areas. Everywhere I've lived in the US, it's taken at least 20 minutes of walking to go to the closest grocery store. Which I'm able to do, but it's definitely a lot less convenient than stopping 1/week on the way back from work and buying a bunch all at once. But I also work outside of the reach of public transport, so it's basically a necessity to have a car :/
@@jamesedghill3726 Doesn't that mean you gave up most of the car cost savings via higher housing costs and other cost of living items?
Yes I’d like to know some smaller cities than New York City Chicago and San Francisco and Seattle that you doesn’t have to have a car in to get around.
these videos and my planning classes in uni have fully blackpilled me against cars, tbh. I dont drive anyways (Im blind) but seeing how bad they really are and seeing how the sausage is TRULY made for car centric enviroments have turned me more passionate about transit advocacy than I ever thought possible.
I don’t understand how people who are shelling out the money to pay their bills can be in such denial about the full costs of owning a car. I always feel like I’m getting off easy with my 2012 paid for small Toyota vehicle that gets decent gas mileage and is relatively dependable. But the $800 I spent for new brakes a few months ago sobered me up, as did the $80-90 oil changes. I paid the same amount for my brakes last year for new tires and an alignment. I also paid over $1500 for air conditioner repair for one of my adult children’s cars that is twice as old as mine because they needed to get back-and-forth to work during the hottest summer on record while living in the south. I am making it my business to be car free by the time I retire. I’m not afraid to live without a car. I spent a good part of my life growing up without one in a large city with good transportation. I didn’t drive or own a car until I was in my 20s and I’m over the money pit and the sitting in traffic.
I am a CPA in 3 US states. Thank you for describing the true costs of vehicle ownership, especially through the lens of income inequality
These hidden costs of driving are true of car-centric societies everywhere. Driving a car here in Dubai costs the equivalent of thousands of Dollars, albeit slightly less in fuel costs since fuel is cheaper than a lot of other places. When I lived in Barcelona, all it took was a €100 bicycle and nearly €100 in public transport tickets to get around. I was there for 4 whole months. Other times, I would just walk around because of how insanely compact the entire city was.
There's something very freeing with being able to get around with whatever means of transport you choose. That feeling has never escaped me and I hope many other cities learn to give everyone equal access to all forms of transport.
Having an accounting background really is a game changer in many aspects in life. I'm super grateful to have a little bit of experience and I'm glad you're sharing the good word of line by line expenses and estimates 👍
I feel like it is a bit of a superpower. People make fun of our nerdy ways but like my boss used to say, "If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense"
As an accounting student/math nerd that doesn't want to drive, this video feels like it was made for me lol I love this kind of research
as a bicycle commuter it takes me ten minutes to cycle two miles a car it takes two minutes is eight minutes worth the cost of a car of witch I do not own
"I'm 100% sure I'd get called an elitist for even suggesting... car-free living in a challenging environment."
Yeah, no joke. Every time I tell ppl I live in the Phoenix metro area w/o a car on a salary of $25,000/yr, someone accuses me of lying. Easier for a lot of folks to think we're being dishonest than to acknowledge some of us can't afford a car, let alone that if you're able to afford a car you're not really income-burdened. And yet, literally everywhere in this city I could possibly want to go, I can access by bus or bike for a total cost of less than $200/yr; there's absolutely no way the marginal time penalty of using those modes compared to driving offsets the savings.
Just do the math, ppl! It ain't hard!
Unfortunately, I live in an area where freezing cold temps and snowstorms are frequent. Bicycling 60 miles round trip is just out of the question for me, given my state of health. I had an important medical appointment that coincided with a snow emergency and couldn't be postponed. I couldn't even drive my little Honda Civic that day. I was forced to hitch a ride on my neighbor's big SUV.
Is the tram in Phoenix useful at all?
I used it once to go from the airport to downtown. But didn't feel a lot of locals made use of it
Or you could just live in a car, use a gym membership for showers, and eat mainly canned foods, and that's even cheaper.
@@kb_100 Rode it every day for 4 years pre-COVID, & now I ride it about once or twice a week in the work-from-home era. It was packed every day before, & in 2022 it's now back to just about as packed as it was then. What's especially good is that b/c it keeps the same headway b/w AM & PM peak & runs 4 AM to 1 AM Mon-Sat, you can very easily do nonstandard commute times or mid-day appointments & errands. As a result, if you travel mid-day you'll see lots of folks riding the train, even if it's not strictly speaking at full capacity.
@@lightdark00 in Phoenix that would actually be more expensive than simply renting an apartment within walking distance of transit. You'd spend a *huge* amount of money on gas to keep the car on during the night to run the AC so you don't die of heat stroke when the evening low temperature is almost 100 Fahrenheit. There isn't a significant rent hike for transit proximity here, mostly b/c the locals haven't figured out it's such a good deal, but also b/c unlike a lot of our peer cities our housing production rate has mostly kept up with demand, at least until about 2 years ago.
I would definitely be interested in a calculation of cost for subsidies that the US gives to oil companies to keep the price of fuel artificially low. Furthermore, how much those costs factor into the overall value of driving shown against those who don't drive at all. Oil subsidies and maintenance of auto infrastructure costs could be an additional convincing point on how much could be put towards alternative transportation methods. Also, it could be fun to calculate what the cost of driving would be if car owners had to pay for the actual cost of fuel and road maintenance fully, without non-driving taxpayer assistance.
Nearly everyone lives in a car-dependant (or at least car-owning) household, hipster islands notwithstanding, so I wouldn't get too indignant about subsidizing drivers; it wouldn't be a large increase.
What subsidies to the oil industry are you talking about, or are you just talking out of your a$$?
The biggest single subsidy to the oil companies is indirect: In 1986, President Reagan announced that henceforth, the US Navy would escort and protect oil tankers transiting the Persian Gulf, even if the tanker is flying under a foreign flag. The US Navy keeps the oil routes safe from terrorism or attack by Iran. Otherwise the first time terrorists would blow up a supertanker, the price of oil would skyrocket.
You’re on the same wavelength as me and these are all excellent points/topics. Thanks for bringing them to attention. Ignore the ignorant naysayers.
Not true, well over half of all Americans live in a large metro area. Additionally 1 out 5 Americans lives in the Northeast corridor area in cities with excellent public transportation alternatives. Not to mention people that can't drive or don't drive out of choice.
First time I've watched one of your videos.
I've always had multiple issues with vehicles. Since I was old enough to drive (1976-77) Ive probably had 25 cars, vans or trucks. Plus one moped, one motorcycle, one scooter and now my first e-bike.
Through our my working life I was in the lowest 20 percent quintile. And the cost of owning a vehicle (always used) helped keep me poor.
Thanks for the thought provoking viewpoint.
Should read "throughout"
25 cars, a motorcycle, a moped, a scooter, and an ebike? Did you even take any single one of those vehicles in for a pre-purchase inspection? That’s like 1-2 vehicle switches per year if spread out evenly on the course of 46 years
Absolute legend! The more people are using alternative modes of transportation, the more us tradespeople can get in, do our job and get out without wasting a whole lot of time in traffic, which will translate in cheaper overall services and prices for everybody!
This is well timed for me, I'm in the UK and considering replacing my car with an e-bike and trailer. :)
consider pedelecs (that's what we call them in Germany - Electric cargo bikes). been thinking about getting one for ages, they aren't for free but, you can do soooooo much with them.
I live in the UK and have just bought an e-bike for my 4 mile trip to work. It's quicker, more fun, and a hell of a lot cheaper! Considering getting rid of my car as it's just an expensive paper weight now.
@@matthewcornfield2150 true, the fun part is so underestimated!
@@sangokudbz79 Especially overtaking stationary queues of vehicles hehe
I mean, you drop 2gs or so out right and save a shit ton afterward. I would do it in a heartbeat if my current circumstances permitted me.
This video is absolutely on point. I live in a central area of a largely unwalkable city in Canada, and while I pay more up-front for my housing costs, I am able not to own a car, which more than offsets it. I also don't have kids, which maybe makes it easier for me than for some, but I do wish more people would consider the hidden costs of driving, even just to themselves.
I so get that, god bless middle of the shelf public transport in Europe - I have two toddlers, but living with (almost) not a car is actually an option. A lot depends on your mindset however, you need to be the kind of person that chooses to overcome some difficulties (waiting 10 min for a bus mostly, also dealing with kid unfriendly everywhere is a big part i.e getting screamed at by bus drivers coz you dare to take a 12 inch balance bike literally on a stroller). but what I have come to realize more and more is that it's so much a cultural thing rather than only a supply and demand calculation. while my small town in Germany (50k) has adequate public transport most places (15 min frequencies on most routes, 30 mins for more suburban areas at least in peak hours 6-9 am and 12-6pm) we still have that mixture of stigma and unwillingness of people to see this as a valid option for their transportation needs. but hey, we do have a huge BMW plant 60 miles away (plus so much more suppliers to the automotive sector) so there's something, guess that part is not just a coincidence...
What city?
@@benashworth1674 Calgary (population 1.3 million, for anyone not familiar with it). It's got a decent transit system as Canadian cities go, but living without a car in most parts of the city will probably cause most people a bit of pain.
I've done the same thing, but in a small college town (~20k people) in the USA. I have plenty of shops, restaurants, and even doctor's offices in a short walking distance and can reach anywhere in town in 15 minutes by bike. I can easily walk/bike to work on the college campus.
My major issue is the lack of interesting things to do and not having a nearby big city with good public transit. I was planning to move to NYC/Jersey City and just bite the bullet with the high living costs just to experience an actual city.
"I also don't have kids, which maybe makes it easier for me than for some"
I've recently moved to an area where we don't need a car BECAUSE I have kids. It was depressing to seem them sit around the house all day while in the suburban desert. Now they're surrounded by other kids, can walk/train/bus anywhere by themselves, etc.
My rule of thumb when it comes to driving expense:
Every time my vehicle leaves the home's driveway, it costs me five-dollars, even if it is for a three mile trip to a local grocer.
I factor in the fuel; wear-and-tear of the vehicle which factors in the tires, brakes, and other mechanical parts subject to wear in the vehicle that will require replacement in the life of the vehicle; the exposure of hazards on the road; and shortening the interval when the next oil change is needed.
There also are opportunity costs: time spent paying attention to car issues (starting with all the initial shopping around for a vehicle up to figuring out the final disposal), plus alternative uses for the money that could be saved by being car-free.
Car free... perhaps
Vehicle free... not really.
Rural areas = NO public transportation.
Bicycles/E-Bikes= BIG risk being killed or
maimed.
Horse & Buggy= expenses ( buggy cost,
horse cost, food, medical, time, buggy
upkeep, etc.)
To have the freedom of mobility, you lose
the freedom to retain all of your earned
income, Plain And Simple. CB
Now do the opportunity cost of having to navigate transit systems which are 3-4x slower than an equivalent distant car commute, the opportunity cost of having to find a place to rent or buy in a place /with/ good transit that most likely means paying far more in housing than you otherwise would. You can't just go "well our cities were planned poorly!" because the whole point of a systemic issue is that it's out of the hands of the individual when planning. As it stands, you've got the choice between paying $3k a month for a studio apartment in a neighborhood close to work (if you're lucky enough to even work at a place with any sort of housing nearby, that is), or paying half that to drive 20-30 miles each way in many places.
With how things currently are in America, living car-free /is/ the luxury option - you need to be well off to even afford to do it. Whereas one can buy a 4-5k beater (as I did in 2019) and have access to many, much cheaper, housing options all for the cost of a time commute and gasoline.
Yeah, but for some people, they like working on their cars
@@mikeydude750which city are you referring to? I'm in Phoenix. An exemplar of sprawl. One can still save money going car free. The opportunity cost of transit is much lower if you can use the time in transit for reading or writing. An impossible task behind the wheel of a beater
@@lesterroberts1628 I used to live in Orange County and didn't have a car for a year. I had to take the bus to get around and it turned what would have been a 20-30 minute drive into a 2+ hour bus+train ride each way. I had to put up with it because my license was suspended due to some unpaid tickets, but the moment the suspension was lifted and I got all of those issues resolved, I tried my hardest to get back into a cheap car again because I had almost no time left in the day.
In Europe the main challenge is called "but the car is there and I need it anyway" - which means - as you mention - you pay everything upfront and suddently other options look expensive. You cannot be without a car and the static cost of having a car is high. So you want to use it.
In Germany we call this the "Eh Da"-component, "Das Auto ist eh da" - 'the car is just there'. And with Germany moving more and more to single family homes for those who afford it - it becomes more and more American.
In the US in NYC I lived with the public transit, Amtrak, air travel and for the cars I just rented one when I needed one to travel outside. At the end of the day all the rental car bills were way less than owning a car would have been.
This is precisely why it's so important to design infrastructure to compensate for this. Not Just Bikes did a great video about how this works in the Netherlands, for example: th-cam.com/video/c1l75QqRR48/w-d-xo.html
Driving a Volkswagen UP in the Netherlands is alot cheaper than public transport though. Even with all the costs of the car..... so ye. Only problem is in big cities regarding traffic.
We had 2 Car in Germany. Now I sold the big one. Only 1 small car left and this is enough. We have a trainstation in Town to go to the BigCity and I ride bicycle in my town. The Car is just in case and we refuel the car may be 3x a year. Many people love the Car and pay a lot for this - but this is stupid.
@@PAUL-uz9lq then your not really a German. Every time me as a Dutch person goes to German. It's like an instant switch to huge big ass expensive cars. Like cars are super cheap in Germany to operate I guess. It's like every German driving big ass cars.
@@HermanWillems I'm german and I had a fast, black AUDI with big RH Wheels, leather sports seats and I sold it in 2006. Then I traveled in Asia, Australia and had allways rentalcars. I saw the world and sucsess people living a basic life in major cities. They have a lot of money and they invest in bussines, real estate, land, stockmarket but own a old Holden or Toyota. Car is not important. This change my opinion a lot and feelings about luxury Cars. In Germany is nearly in every Town a Trainstation. So if you need transport to go bit further, just use the Train and its ok. For short distance is Velocycling the best (ok, only in summer).
I know you were erring on the side of being a bit conservative with the costs here (e.g. not mentioning opportunity cost of the upfront capital, or interest in the case of a loan) but one interesting cost that a lot of people don't think of is how car ownership increases your housing cost. For many people it's invisible, but having a garage, or a larger garage for 2 cars, will add to your rent. For those living in cities, where you might be able to find apartments with 0/1/2 parking spots, it's much more noticeable. Where I live, if an apartment comes with a car park it's expected to add approx $50-80k AUD to the purchase cost of that apartment.
Yeah, I sort of mentioned this when I talked about possible wanting off-street parking to keep your car from being broken into...but I didn't quantify it. Secure parking spaces cost money!
True. In Seattle, living in downtown with a car will cost around $300+/mo. just to park it in a “secure” facility, sometimes part of the apartment complex itself.
Many (almost all) US cities have parking minimums when building. Parking spaces cost between 20k - 80k per spot. It's not uncommon that you need 1 spot per bedroom in residential buildings. So everyone in that building is paying for that extra cost in their rent, even if they don't have a car!
In the case of renting, you should weigh the cost of the parking spot against the cost of living in a place with better access to public transportation. In the case of owning, neither the parking spot nor the presumably more expensive house in a convenient location can be considered a depreciation expense. It's not immediately obvious to me how these cash flows would shake out.
For personal finance, one can find ways to be more efficient than the societal average. In fact, the viewers of a video on this topic probably already are. Transit being less expensive than driving is a no brainer but there are many legitimate cases for driving and many ways to do it frugally.
My 20 year-old son recommended your videos. They are great! Thank you 🙂. Very interesting and factually informative. He has decided to never drive. While I would like him to at least experience driving, I will support his decision. 👍🏻
Some of your critics can't seem to grasp the point that if even a portion of the populace were able to have a reliable mass transit system available for even some of their transportation needs (most namely commuting) that there would be positive outputs for everyone, including drivers. Less cars on the road means less congestion, less noise, less pollution, fewer accidents, lower insurance rates, and hello, *less demand and hence lower prices for gasoline.*
And yes folks, people could still have cars, but with the primary reason for needing them somewhat curbed, pretty much every car related cost except depreciation and registration would go down, and even that would hurt somewhat less because cars would last longer.
Alas, until Americans start to have concern for how dedicated vehicle ownership shackles both their immediate and long term financial well being, and until city design makes mass transit options more viable, the status quo isn't going to get any better.
You really stated that up clearly. I totally agree
Just did the math, my car costs me on average $760 CAD per month including loan, insurance and gas. Note that this ONLY includes driving to and from work 5 days per week. My job is in a small rural town so unfortunately public transit is not an option. I am hoping to move to a bigger city and convert my job to a WFH position.
EBikes can be a great option depending on the mileage you need to cover. 15-20 miles is a sweet spot.
@@marcchapman6812 it's only 6.5 miles, but 95% of it is on a busy highway or rough and dusty gravel service roads... and then there would be other issues in winter when it becomes -35°C outside
@@1waydago -35°? No problem just bike faster :P /s
Don't forget to divide out the down payment. Don't forget maintenance, including everything you spend on your car from tires, oil changes, down to the air freshener. If you're lucky you've never had to take it to the mechanic, but if you save money on an older car eventually you'll have to. CV joints and such do eventually fail.
@@NozomuYume yeah that's my point, I didn't factor in any maintenance/upkeep and it's still a ridiculous amount to spend when compared to public transit or cycling
I can tell each and every one of the naysayers: once you've had the privilege of being able to safely and comfortably get around by bike and public transit, these costs savings are just the cherry on top. I personally would even be willing to pay extra if it meant I'd never have to commute by car. There's nothing quite as refreshing as taking a bikeride home after a hard day of studying or work.
You know there’s also the intangible cost of a car. You sometimes receive more stress by concentrating on driving and have heavy traffic and bicycling and or traveling by foot you’re more relaxed it helps keep fit if we’re sitting in the car for 40 minutes or more commuting you’re not exercising and your blood pressure might go up.
That's a whole other topic, but I'm totally with ya
@@CityNerd oh yeah I was on full tangent mode
I live in North Carolina and riding a bike home in 95 degree summer weather, with a 72 degree dew point, after busting my ass at some serf job all day does not sound refreshing to me.
Not in the brutal Midwestern weather 😭
I like your pacing and your data-driven approach. Keep up the good work!
Just found your channel, big fan of this genre of educational videos, it really shows the need and an actual desire for US citizens to start to change how we approach the way we design or environments
thank you for your insight as usual!! i've been having the same discussions w/ ppl for years as i live car-free in a pretty car-dependent city in MI. i pay $35/mo for a monthly bus pass and hoof it the rest of the way. making ~$15/hr and less in years past, idk how i would've lived as comfortably as i do had i accepted the narrative that a car is necessary! some ppl act like it's an affront to god that i don't drive, some are just curious and balk when they hear how cheap it is but act like they could never go carless. some may have not been able to having families and other specific needs, but i've never had another adult coworker who doesn't drive so i'm not convinced not ONE of them could change their lifestyle. as i've made more, i've been able to be intentional in where i live and work to make my commute easier (23 min walk, 6 min bus ride now :) ), but luckily my disability didn't keep me from making the way worse commutes i had when i was 10 yrs younger living in the burbs making $8/hr. ANYWAY, now when ppl press me on not driving i'll just show them this video as food for thought.
That's pretty awesome. What irks me is that you and others like you still end up paying, with your time!
I'm willing to bet a 20 minute car ride probably takes you 60-80 minutes?
Your commute on the bus would be shorter and faster if it wasn't for urban sprawl.
People constantly underestimate ALL the costs of car ownership. The fact that so much of the direct cost is camouflaged is part of the problem. The so-called "external" costs are an even larger part of the problem because they're even more camouflaged. Pro tip: It's ALL direct/internal cost. TANSTAAFL! YOU are paying for ALL of it! If you weren't, your taxes and insurance would be lower. If the IRS (not exactly known for their generosity) says your direct cost is 56 cents per mile, you can rest assured that the real direct cost is significantly higher.
Oh my goodness please please PLEASE make a video on tips and tricks for how to live car free!! I would love to have something like that to send to everyone! I live car free in a moderately suburban area and the money I save is incredible. I could literally not afford to live here with a car. Thank you for your hard work with these videos!!
I really enjoyed your video and your mellow disposition
I'm in my 30's and have never owned a car. I'll normally bike around town but I'll catch the bus if the weather's bad or I'm taking my daughter somewhere. It can require a little more time and planning to get places but the savings mean i don't have to work as much. I paid off my student loans in my 20's and bought a house and now i live both rent and car free and it shocks people that i only work 15-20 hours per week and can still pay the bills and build a savings
welcome to... things that never happened
Well done.
@@ScReamOut93for a majority of Canadians and Americans?
absolutely; it’s sad! ):
@@micosstar
I agree,
but for the majority of europeans too. the wanna be green bike lifestyle bullshit is nothing but fake media. you cant live without a car. And people don't.
The only exception is someone with low education living in main cities who can take the bus to their work in a grocery store or something like that.
As soon as you work for some kind of industry, big company etc you have a car. And even if you could theoretically. Live became dangerous with all the cultural enrichment. You wouldn't want to even if you could.
Let's see if I can hit all the costs before you start.
1) Cost of vehicle / depreciation,
2) my sanity,
3) Gas,
4) Insurance,
5) road cost not covered by gas tax,
5) my sanity.
6) accidental death and dismemberment above the rate of alternative transportation,
6) Did I mention my sanity?,
7) Parking infrastructure required for car usage,
8) Fueling infrastructure subsidies
9) Fuel subsidies
10) Atlanta existing in its current traffic based nightmare inducing form.
11) Parking infrastructure beyond what is necessary for event parking.
11) Something about sanity.... *shrugs*
12) gyms or medical costs with the lower physical activity
@@Maverickgouda Good catch!
Adding all of those expenses up and turning them into a cost-per-year really makes joining a car club seem a lot more financially sensible, as long as you have easy access to a rental location. And on top of the financial benefits, there's also the hassles you avoid like maintenance, storage, risk of theft, etc.
Great channel, just discovered it today, love channels like this and Not Just Bikes
Thanks for quantifying these costs. I do drive my 10 year old BMW (2x per week, about 12 miles per trip) but otherwise walk, bike and take transit (to work). The car is a ridiculous expense and it would be cheaper for me to just take an Uber but... PSYCHOLOGY!
I always think of Steve Carrell in The 40 Year-Old Virgin, and how one of the defining characteristics of his comically terrible love life is the fact that he doesn't have a car. I think that is an idea that's really, really deeply embedded in the American psyche.
@@CityNerd This is huge. I'm in the social sciences, and aiming to tie active transit/community interests/civic engagement into my research (via perceptions of safety of bike commuters along routes in my micro-urban city of Champaign-Urbana) and I keep wanting to do some research on high-earning individuals who choose to forego car ownerships and how that plays into their societal image.
ppl with lower income also pay more for their vehicles in the form of higher interest payments and longer loan periods.... 10 yr loans are ridiculous since you end up paying so much interest, but, it lowers the monthly amount, which as you say is the focus
This is usually the case, but not always.
A disturbing trend has been occurring for years where used car dealers are intentionally buying up as much of the stock as they can afford, driving up the cost of the used car market as a whole. Then "financing" them at absurd rates to people with less than stellar credit. Exasperating the problem for the lower quintile incomes for sure.
Yes, and generally most affordable used cars ,up front, are domestic. Which, are much more expensive to own due to sub standard components, workmanship, and materials. Moreover, they tend to depreciate at an alarming rate. The increased cost of a Toyota, Honda ect is offset in decreased maintaince costs.
There's another cost which I think you missed - you need 3x5m of space to park the average car when you are at home. The cost of that extra real estate will vary depending on where you live, in some places it could be significant. If you build a garage then you have depreciation of the walls and roof as well. If you park on the street, that cost is being subsidised by your local government. The same applies where you work, for everyone who has access to "free" parking paid by their employer.
Another great video! Thanks.
I'm a car guy, gear head, what ever you wanna call it. I love cars and working on cars. I can tell you most people don't maintain their cars because they never account for the cost of maintenance. I've always bought used cars cash and then fixed everything wrong with the car, because I like having a "new" vehicle. I've never experienced deprecation as a result. All the maintenance done by myself is still less then any financing the average person spends. After buying a car for 5k and spending another 5k on fixing the car, I can have ~10 years with no major repairs. ALL that said. I'm thinking about an ebike for daily commuting. Keep the cars for long trips and enjoyable driving.
I was thinking that too. People don't consider repair costs because they don't actually maintain/repair until their car stops working. Poor people just buy/lease a crap car until it doesn't work anymore.
Yeah, all the numbers I'm citing are averages. If you're clever with what you buy, how well you negotiate buying AND selling, and how you maintain your vehicles, you're going to do a lot better than average.
My father was a car enthusiast as well, but by the age of 52 he came to the same conclusions, he decided to purchase an ebike and modified it to allow for 30-60 mile long trips during our bike trails. I think there's real money to be made with making American infrastructure more walkable better for our kids, elderly and less of a hassle having more people on the road driving. It all begins with zoning policy's being changed.
As a UK person, the first time I stayed with some US friends who lived in Orange County, I asked how close it was for the shops....they said...oh, not that far. So I started walking (as I would do in the UK) to the nearest shops. Not far, is correct in a car, just not walking!
A lot of US suburban life is very suited to e-cargo bikes.
After years of happily tinkering with air-cooled VWs and E30 BMWs, I switched to motorcycle-only in 2018. Ironically, the developments that allowed me to do this were Uber and Zipcar; if either, let alone both, went OOB then I would probably have to break down and buy a car.
2 years ago I calculated the total cost of owning and using my car for the previous 5 years including all the expenses that are often forgotten about. It was a 10 year old car that I bought cash so nothing fancy. The result was way more than I thought and a significant percentage of my income. Then I moved to a city where it is doable to live without a car. The inconveniences are really minor compared to the fortune I am saving. If I ever find myself in a situation where I would have to buy a car again, well that would really suck. To me, owning a car (unless you have to) is a luxury for wealthy people that don’t mind throwing money around. It’s fine if you do but that money could be spent so much better elsewhere.
I'd like to see a video about the many ways in which the cost of driving is subsidized.
Whenever people advocate for change, they always ask "how are you going to pay for that" while ignoring how we currently pay for whatever the new thing is seeking to replace.
@@johnnyCahuenga only 19 gallons of gasoline from one 44 gallon barrel of crude oil that's how we're paying for it. Won't be there forever!
Thank you so much for this video! This is really important work.
Unmentioned: tolls. Of course, they are highly variable from place to place and driver to driver, but will factor into annual expenses even for a lot of people who only venture into toll roads a few times a year. When I lived in New Jersey and worked in CT, I'm sure they cost me more than gas.
Yeah, bloody tolls everywhere in Florida. As a tourist, forced to purchase a week's pass to cover our holiday period.
I live in the suburbs of Houston with my wife and young daughter. We have a single family home with 2 vehicles, have a 60 mile a day commute round trip, and I would class myself in the 4th quintile of income. We had an opportunity to move to outskirts of Milan, Italy for a couple of years and decided to live close to the job, buy a bike each, one annual metro pass, and use car sharing for in city trips and car rental for out of city trips. The cost savings were massive, 80% reduction at least... But it did require more planning, hassle, and time. Now we're back in Houston and back to a 2 car, drive everywhere situation. I wish there was a public transport option but it is nonexistent, I researched bus services, park and ride, car share etc. No options exist that doesn't result in at least doubling the commute time...
That's the realistic issue with American cities. They've been re-fitted to be so car-centric that moving indirectly through transit will always be somewhat slower. This wasn't really the case back when cars were less common, but as they've grown cities have widened and sprawled so much. That being said, the Netherlands provides a good blueprint for how to re-fit that car-centric design into a more public transit and bike friendly system, provided enough drivers are willing to listen.
I had similar issues living in South Florida where I have owned many different well-used cars and had also gone without owning a car for many long and short periods of time over the course of 40 years. If I was lucky enough to live a couple of blocks from a major road, there would be a fairly regular bus that I could take up and down that road to get most of my day-to-day needs met. But if I had to get off that route and take another route, then my travel time basically doubled for two routes and sometimes tripled if I had to take 3 different buses. I had a job that required 3 buses and over a mile of walking each way to drop my toddler at daycare and travel to work. Drive time would have been about 30-40 minutes each way, but my daily commute on public transportation was around an hour and a half each way. If I missed a bus, I had to hoof it to the day care at top speed across two busy streets and then another 5 blocks away to get my child before closing time (and a Very Large late fee for every 5 minutes past closing time.) Most days I left the house around 6:30 AM to get to work before my start time of 9:00 and got home between 6 and 6:30 PM. By the time I got home, I was so exhausted that I sometimes fell asleep before my child did - which was NoT acceptable to me at all. Don't believe it when people say poor people are just too lazy to support themselves.
@@nanszoo3092 I'm sorry to hear your story, coming from a poor background myself, I can definitely say that poor certainly does not mean lazy. Fortunately, I was born and raised in the UK, where back then education was free (still is somewhat for lower income families), and managed to get a degree without drowning in debt... For all the good things my new home in the US has to offer there are some massive shortcomings, exponentially more when struggling financially...
I love how you address viewer comments in videos
Your videos are absolutely incredible. Thank you.
Thanks for the appreciation!
The comment in the intro mentioned depreciation. I think it's important to remember that the pandemic has really upended the depreciation calculation. Used car prices are much higher than they "should" be. I've seen cars from 3-5 years ago still going for essentially what they were new. And all the old advice was to figure you should lose about half the value of the car by 5 years in, and we're just not seeing that right now. I don't think it changes the general outcome: car ownership is more expensive than renting when you need it or using public transit. But I think it does add an interesting wrinkle these last couple years.
Everything is wonky the last couple years. Do we want to plan based on the assumption the next 15 years will be like the last two?
while correct, I don't think this makes it any better. first of all, these pandemic years need not be considered a standard, thus basing calculations on them is probably kind of a reach.
second, this agrevates a crucial problem of car centricity mentioned in the video even more so. the fact that a certain percentage of the population is basically cut off from transportation, as those people relied on cheapish used cars to fulfill their transportation needs in car centric everywhere (or being hit by a car while walking). for illustration purposes consider me - I am a student, luckily from a reasonably well off family, so this issue maybe does not apply to me 100%, but I buy used cars for 60% of their original value (around 15k euros for my last, so let's say 20k$), and even 10% more would be something I feel in my balance. I don't know what I'd do, if I needed a car and could not afford 2000$ more to pay off (whether in loans or upfront). but this is an issue millions of people all around the world are facing.
given the higher costs of new cares, the replacement cost is the relatively just as high, youre not gaining much
@@JogBird "Entertainingly", it's hit used cars more than new in a lot of ways. Enough stories about flipping cars for a profit, vs. the usual (and cited) instant loss.
It's a short term transient thing though.
It's going to make the BLS data really interesting when it starts to come available! People are going to be netting more on their trade0-in, but paying more for used cars, so....maybe a wash in the aggregate?
"Most households, in fact 80% of them are not in the middle quintile".
Math checks out 🤣 this is the dry humor I tune in for every week.
I had to double check my calculations
Clear, concise, to the point with analysis based on facts. New subscriber out of it.
I think this might be your best video yet. Absolutely fantastic.
Side note, paying off my car, switching to a per mile insurance and working from home has probably already saved me 10's of thousands of dollars.
CityNerd, thank you for another banger! You should make a video on how much it’ll cost for public or alternative transportation if you haven’t done so already.
Thanks for your on point analysis. I’m always eager to help people see how their $ is wasted on cars, when there are alternatives. Of course, the caveat is whether alternatives exist at all, and how difficult it will be to transition to a non-car USA.
I love these videos you are making. Never can have enough city and transit TH-camrs, and your videos are all over my front page now. Also random thing, but your voice reminds me so much of this other TH-camr you suck at cooking. Anywho, thanks for these informative and insightful videos
Set the onion to 375°
Thanks for making this and pointing out the costs to people who do not seem to notice the microeconomics of driving. I'd like to see a follow up on all the externalities of a car based culture showing the macro impact too.
I moved from Illinois to Florida a few years ago and one additional cost that I had in Illinois and sometimes have in Florida not noted in your video is tolls. I know there are ways to move from point a to point b in both states without paying a toll but must people just get on the tollway. If you look at I 294 which runs west of Chicago it is always crowded. During peak periods not only are they paying tolls but they are using a lot more gas as they crawl along in heavy traffic.
Oh good point -- I totally forgot tolls!
we don't have TOLL roads. Why are there toll roads. Why can't the government not just build proper infrastructure and pay that from taxes. I think you americans have too low taxes. Pay more! And get nice roads like us.
@@HermanWillems The idea of toll roads is for bonds to be issued to pay for the construction and then only the tollway users pay back the bond holders avoiding the need for local government to rise taxes on everyone. Sounds like a good idea (only users of the road pay for the road) but what happens is that when the bonds are paid off you would think the road would change to a freeway. What really happens is the tolls never go away. So as a user of tollway A I could be funding tollway B ( a road I may never use) once the bonds for tollway A are paid off. This is the problem I have with tollways - they never revert back to freeways but become a funding source for additional tollways in other locations.
Doesn’t help that the gps already tries to route you through the interstate highways, you literally gotta touch the phone while driving to tell the GPS to not route you onto the interstate, I wish the train was every hour rather than every 2 hours on my line, then I would have taken that instead
@@HermanWillems Hi, welcome to Illinois, where the politicians are all criminals, the pocket book is always short, and despite having one of the highest tax burdens per person in the nation, the infrastructure is a dumpster fire.
Clearly you aren't from around these parts. Toll roads are just the beginning. Also, the reason toll roads are a thing is because they are the most heavily used roads which require the most upkeep, and tolls make sure that the people who use them the most pay the lion's share of the cost of their upkeep.
The fact that most people only calculate the short-term costs and not hidden investments is used by the German railway. They offer the BahnCard. For ~230€ you get 50% off on every train ticket and for 57€ you get 25% off. Makes you feel that the trip was less expensive and was made to compete against cars.
Thank you for this tedious explanation of proper accounting!! 🙏🏼 🙏🏼
Excellent walk thru the numbers.
It's true that for Americans this is not easy to understand, since owning a car is pretty much mandatory over there. When you live in a city which design allows you to live car-free, this makes much more sense, since you can actually decide to not own a car and move around by other less expensive means.
Yeah, i used to live in a small city for a few years and i was looking at max 20-30 minutes to get anywhere in the city, even in winter. Trying to use a car took 15-25 assuming you could find parking. With any real traffic and bad parking, that 15-25 could be a couple hours.
Where i live now, i can reach 6 decent-sized cities within an hour using a car and anything i might need for living and my job (usually a consultant but just running a small job shop rn) within 12 minutes. Public transport comes once every 30 minutes 5-7 and 16-18 with 3 times per day outside that. Your average grocery trip would be close to 2 hours long and getting to the closest city takes 4.5 hours assuming you get lucky with schedules.
@@angrydragonslayer I live in Santiago, Chile, which is not an ideal urbanist city by any means but at least I can get to a grocery shop by walking 2 minutes, and if I need to go anywhere else, transit/metro is very frequent. Its still a very car centric city but at least Im not forced into it
@@Monkeybone_ i'm not denying that
What i'm saying is that not all places you can live is a city
Three points:
1. It sounds like depreciation would be even worse with inflation!
2. If you live in an urban area, you can shop in places without parking, and avoid subsidizing it.
3. Many people have parking space that they rent out (in a condo for example). You can actually MAKE money by skipping the car.
Considering transit and the occasional Uber, I think I make at least $1000 per year on transportation.
Inflation increases the value of the car by a proportionate amount, so it cancels in real terms (used car driven inflation probably means owning a car is temporarily profitable)
That's not how inflation works. High enough inflation would actually erase nominal depreciation completely. Even these days, someone with a mostly depreciated vehicle has seen the value of their car rise significantly.
Regarding point 2: You're still subsidizing it, because where you work or live is getting taxed more to cover the costs of maintaining it.
@@bopete3204 You're getting inflation on a depreciating asset. As for Uber, it's cheap as hell if you're taking it five times a year.
#2 you can do regardless of if you own a car.
Really interesting how you included the depreciation of the cost of the car into your analysis!
Finally got to watch this. Thanks for the details.
And, Yay! for Portland making driving difficult for many desirable areas.
Love this so much! We bike 95% of the time here in London, Canada (yeah, I know, Fake London haha) and only drive 5% of the time.
We save SO much that we're well on our way to retiring early! Obviously there are a lot of other factors but people really don't seem to understand how much driving costs them.
Edit: ebikes! Specifically the Ride1Up 500 Step-Thru and Biktrix Swift Step-Thru. Gotta fight that urban sprawl somehow!
See, you can even do it in Fake London! A true success story.
Hey Ben! I'm subscribed to your channel and I'm looking forward to more videos from you! Glad to see you're still alive.
@@CityNerd Weird thing: I grew up around in Jason's (NotJustBikes) neighborhood, so if you need footage in London, hit me up!
@@MatthewHoHiWorld Wow, small world! I'm still alive and well - just dealing with a bunch of life stuff which took a big chunk of time!
I'll be getting back to posting videos in the coming months :)
Exactly. By ditching the car, and remaining car less, not only was I able to travel more but also retire early. I have an Aventon Aventure ebike which works well for my circumstances.
Thank you so much for this video! I have a hard time getting my argument across and I’ve search for the average annual cost of a car just this week, and found 11000$ (can). There was no explanation, so I didn’t know where that came from.
Great video on the cost of car ownership. I'm currently doing DoorDash and it highlights the point that you made. Not only am I using more fuel, tires and brakes wear out, oil changes become more frequent. So in a per mile cost basis, it's not just the 19 cents per mile that count. Once has to add the cents per mile cost for tires, brakes, and eventually a new car.
Also an accountant who loves city planning. Appreciate your analysis!
Im from switzerland and my family never owned a car. Not because we couldn't afford it but bc we never needet it. Those few times we needed to transport anything we would rent a truck or someting like that. But in any other case I can get to almost every little town or village in switzerland by public transport.
Geneva was lovely when I visited, especially having trams available to get everywhere. Meanwhile, Florida can only get a "high-speed" intercity train built by a *private* company (Brightline) to its major 1+ million cities. I hate my state.
@@AssBlasster At least having bright line train is something better than nothing. And bright line is very new and clean train and has well-built stations and many positive things about it. It’s not everything but it’s a start
I’m really glad you’ve touched on this. People really do think gas and monthly premiums are all that the cost is. In fact, we subsidize driving as a society. So when car drivers are upset at tax dollars going to transit they don’t use, which is flawed thinking for many reasons, but especially because we spend lots of money pay for these negative externalities of driving and frankly I’m tired of it. If people had to pay the full cost of ownership, most people wouldn’t be able to afford a car. Which is probably for the best.
Love this. My wife is starting a new job and we thought about buying a second car. The math here tracks exactly with what I added up getting a second car would actually cost. I bought an electric folding scooter and a bus pass. 15-30 cents a day in electric, a 215 bucks up front for the scooter, and 91 bucks a month for a Bus pass. 300 the first month and 100 every month after that. Worst case I need an inner tube for 6 bucks or a tire for 20. Otherwise these things kind of just run. It's wild the costs of a car vs anything else.
The biggest drawback of most American cities is that you need a car to get around. You can have one if you want one and can afford one, but YOU SHOULDN'T NEED A CAR to get a round. That's ridiculous! I'm 42 now and I've never owned a car. I have never ever needed to have one. Just rent when I need it otherwise public transit works great.
Had to thumbs up from the title. I’m guilty of ranting about the finances of personal vehicles regularly. The average expenses for cars can be thousands more per year than alternate modes and yet I come across stats for American finances like majority don’t have a $1k emergency fund or 40% don’t have $400 in the bank.
Fascinating. Really should look at the whole picture! This is exactly why I have never bought a vehicle over 5000 dollars. If it loses 50% of it's value it's not decimating to my finances. Also 45mpg, do my own maintenance BUT repairs I do have to take it to the shop. Repairs are my biggest cost. My transportation costs over the last 3 years are around $400/month!!! But only like 140 of that is fuel....
The biggest issue with these things is that people in general have no clue about their spending or personal finances. I really hope an educational videos like this is eye opening to them. :)
Never owned a car and never will because I always thought it's way too expensive to get around.
My annual transportation costs are: 50-100€ for bike maintenance (paid 400€ for it 15 years ago and it gets a full service package at my local bike shop every year plus spare parts if necessary), up to 800€ for public transportation (depending a lot on weather), up to 1200€ for long distance train rides (depending on the number of trips). A really expensive year may come up to 2000€ but that is the exception, usually it is maybe 1200-1500€ a year.
I probably should add the costs for decent shoes because I walk a lot in addition to biking and taking public transport. Oh, and that one time investment in a really fancy umbrella, that's just invaluable when walking in rain. And while we're at it, since I don't have a car I bought a shopping trolley to transport my groceries. Very low maintenance costs, though.
Nobody can ever convince me that owning a car is not just a money sink. Really sucks if you have to have one because there's no viable alternative.
Would you date a man without a car?
same here. Bought my bicycle 15 years ago for 500$, costs me 30$/year for maintenance in local shop.
@@SlugSage yeah. Why not?
I like what you said about the cost of financing and the "bliss" that comes after the final payment. I finished paying off a car this year. The feeling was great, until I remembered that I missed out on like 20,000 dollars, little by little, over four years. I live in suburban Texas, where you definitely need a car. It's actually an insane predicament.
I always buy and sell my cars used on Facebook marketplace, it saves a lot of money by cutting out the scamming dealerships.
But I really wish I didn’t need to own a car at all
Love this video. Would be *really* interested in the external costs too, the infrastructure and results of manufacturing and replacing so many cars, etc. but it gets complex fast of course. It is an excellent counterpoint to bring up whenever someone claims building public transit is too expensive though.
Couple of other, uh, fun things to try and look at with an accountant's eye are the costs of moving (ever hear the "don't like it here? too expensive? well move to the yukon" etc?) and the cost of owning vs renting... boy that gets complex quick.
As it happens, I love tedious explanations about proper accounting.
Great vid.
I love love love living in a city where I don't have to have a car. My annual [public] transportation cost is about $350, which is less than my monthly payment on my last car, not including insurance and everything else.
You don't have to worry about car crashes either, and you don't have to be stressed out about driving.
Lol my train monthly pass was $320 per month.... In 2008!
@Blood Bath and Beyond - Pop Goes Metal Covers: I am oh-so-happy I have never lived in whatever city you did in 2008.
Do you have a video about how you got into urban planning? You mentioned you were in accounting before, and I'm curious about the path you took (no personal stake at all, obviously).
I live in a teeny tiny beach town so despite my desire to be completely car free it's not a possibility...it could be if we had regular trains like Europe does but alas we do not. That being said I do hope to move closer to the more populus area (I'm on the outskirts now) and switch to biking as my primary mode of transportation. Excellent video and keep spreading the truth, people need to understand these things more.
Ran across your channel a few weeks ago. Loved watching these incredibly insightful, well researched films. What makes them entertaining is your tone of voice. Love your work. Quick question on your 'all-in-cost' of cars: We are an American family living in a market town 25 miles west of central London. We have been here for 20+ years and have stayed here in part because of many of the points you discuss in your films. But the cost of moving a family of 5 on the train, then across town on the Underground is considerably more expensive than driving them. The congestion charge has changed the maths but until public transport can match the scalability of cars when measured per person, I wonder how we ever solve this problem.
New college student here: I chose my campus for its location downtown in a walkable area but I still depend on cars to get to the other nearby city where my family and friends are. And although the downtown is walkable, it very quickly switches to car dependent Infrastructure. As much as I don’t want to have to own a car, it still feels like a necessity and even an expectation for someone my age which is insane to me! I’d have to give up my entire net worth (everything I saved throughout a highschool job) to afford a car now.
Great breakdown! I never really got into the "cost of transport" comparison stuff until I got an electric car and then suddenly started seeing the horrible math people do on comparing cost of ownership between electric and gasoline vehicles. Before that I really hadn't had any clue how badly most people underestimate what their cars cost them.
It takes up such a colossal,enormous ,gigantic portion of your income. Its slice size on the financial pie seems skewed.
@@waltonsmith7210 IT'S SOO MUCH MONEY!!. I live in LA , don't have a car, and people look at me like I'm crazy. And it's like why the hell would I ever subject myself to a car in this city? Y'all have lost your damn minds. All of the money that I am able to save each month would be gone if I bought a car. So it's no fucking wonder folks here are broke and struggling. I saved money for a car before I moved here, I really don't intend on using it . Not to mention folks keep smashing car windows on my street. I walk to the grocery store and see shattered glass on the ground, and I am just like "again?😑" I'm not doing this with y'all. I am taking the bus.
Another point. Singapore. Singapore is a tiny island and it has to use smart spatial planning to some degree to build up infrastructure. When I stayed there about 3 months ago, it shocked me as to how feasible it was to not own a car there. I could literally roll out of bed and go to the local supermarket for supplies. There were convenience stores, shops, restaurants, service businesses everywhere, one of the best MRT and bus networks on the planet, and swathes of publically sold and constructed housing everywhere. Sure, it has its issues, it still does have a large car culture, but it also is heavily penalised. Cars are taxed at a rate of 100%, and are capped as well, meaning that each year only a certain amount of cars are allowed on their roads. For reference, a Toyota Corolla there costs $186,000, whereas an MRT trip to and from work every day will set you back only $5. It's absolutely absurd and I wish my city was more like that. I mean, second highest life expectancy in the world? I wonder why!
Keep speaking the truth! Thanks for this video.
I would be interested in more info about how you made the switch from Accountant to Planner/Engineer! I've been very curious how one becomes a Planner/Engineer.
I grew up around the aviation world, where everything is measured in cost per hour of operation, and unsurprisingly, there's a good amount of fixed costs involved even if you aren't using the aircraft.
I also run into this a fair bit with friends who try and talk me into going to an event and they always try and play the "oh, but it's just $50 for the weekend!" card, and I wind up giving them an amount closer to the $500-750 range as the actual cost. Get some weird expressions when you point out the cost of the hotel, food and snacks for the day, and then money to spend in the dealer's den at said event. So many reply with "oh, you don't have to get a hotel room, you live nearby!" Yeah, I've done the walk home thing after being on your feet for 12 hours, day one is bad enough, day two and your legs are screaming at you. A 15 minute walk feels more like two hours with 20lb weights on each of your feet at the end of those days... Or you're leaving early because you have a 45 minute bus to catch afterwards, and you don't want to keep your hosts up half the night.
Loved that you featured Portland google maps in this one!
I live in a large metro of the US with a terrible transit system. Thankfully my particular area is decently walkable but if I want to go elsewhere in the city, I have to drive so I have a car. This video made me really examine all the costs that go into my car ownership and examine the fact that I tell myself proudly that I save money because I rarely drive it. sure, I save on that gas + wear and tear, but the other flat costs I have (parking spot at my building, insurance, registration) are still just as expensive!
Honestly never really thought of this, I have my full Drivers licence but havent pulled the trigger on a car yet because I can still function and work without one and I save so much money to use for wealth building
Invest your excess finances not used to run a private vehicle and you will likely save ~$1m over a 40 year working lifetime.