the shelf analogy is genius. that we come across something that doesn't sit right with us so we shrug and put it on a shelf. repeat till there is too much on the shelf and it collapses. such a useful way to look at it! great lesson.
Two things Ireally loved about this interview... First, acknowleding that forgivness isn't necessary for healing. It's often irked me when people insist that it is needed and I've just never believed it was always appropriate or necessary for everybody. This idea has always felt quite solid to me but it was still nice to hear that being affirmed. Second, I loved Sarah's willingness to accept that it wasn't ALL bad and that makes perfect sense when knowing that so much of the cult's teachings were taken from preexisting ideas. My narcissitic step-father essentially talked me into taking an intro seminar into what felt wrong to me after the very first day of three (EST). I was blessed with an emotionally intelligent mother who had told me before going in that if I felt the need, I could call her. My response was that I'd be fine but I did indeed call her because Ifelt some ideas I'd heard were wrong, felt it in my core but I was too young to know what to do with that feeling and it was stressful because I wanted to go along/understand. My mother essentially told me that what she does with things like that is take what's good of it and leave the rest behind, which IMMEDIATELY gave me a sense of relief and it became a mantra or way to navigate my entire life thereafter.
Incredible poem. Thank you. I think I'll have to listen to it many times for its levels and insights to unfold for me. The clothesline analogy is heart wrenching.
Another extremely frightening reminder of we as individuals can become so indctrined & highly manipulated Well done & thank goodness this woman became aware & "jumped ship" so to speak Great to listen to your expertise re- narcissistic abuse The power & control dynamics & finally ending with a wonderful therapy session Brilliant interview & yes "That beautiful poem " Great heartlifting words Thank you both
Wow. Sobbing after your poem. Thank you Sarah for sharing your truths. I wish you peace and comfort, and the whole happy sunlit future you have described. ❤
I think perhaps for those who are away from the narcissistic relationship feeling they are not enough, they are very much open to having another one, until they can come out of the relationship feeling empowered and stronger. Sadder but wiser; in time the sadder can turn to joy - hang on hard to the wiser!
Hi Dr. Ramani. I’m sure you’ve heard Nicki Clyne has now disavowed Keith Raniere. I would love to see you secure an interview/conversation with her, fresh out of her “fog”.
Im sending this to my Daughter!! I have not been able to put my own recovery in WORDS.😊🫶 I had the same vision of the clothesline as I began the 4 th step in recovery. From Parents , Narcissistic Father, Husband , Cult leader and then substance . We get to share our Healing like Sarah said with those around us , ahead of us and behind us ( the next generation!!) Yay!! Thank You looking forward to seeing Sarah at the Collective Trauma Summit 2023 !! 😘💦🤌 💜💥🤛🙌🦋 55:5 🙏
Loved this. I’ve been absolutely obsessed with this case because I feel that I’ve been in something similar, but writ small. It wasn’t a cult or an official group/company, but just a friend group. It had a leader - very charismatic, very oddball, and definitely someone who seemed to like testing boundaries to see what you’d allow or protest. Very much a verbal exhibitionist, talked about sex a lot, was very flirty with all the women, all that. I eventually realized that he was sexually involved with all the women in our group of friends, after he had turned that kind of sexualized attention on me. I knew he was a “ladies’ man” already, but I believed there was a line he respected when it came to his female friends. No such like existed, and once things became sexual, he was very aloof, communicating about what was happening with us was like pulling teeth, etc. Long story short, I had a lot of issues I’d never worked through, C-PTSD from past traumas (he had a knack for “recruiting” people with trauma or difficult pasts into our group, by the by), so I decided to do an IOP to address some addictions I had and mental health problems that had long been glossed over. As part of this, I had to distance myself from him at least during treatment, since he was usually the ringleader of gatherings that involved drinking, pot, psilocybin, etc. I had to keep away from all that. Once I finished my program, I found that he had completely discarded me. After I sent him the message saying I needed a break for a little while, I never heard another word from him. Completely vanished, no explanation, no goodbye. 6 years of friendship (and a few sexually intimate times, even), completely flushed just because I asked for some time away. That was almost 6 years ago and it still plagues me. Hearing about this case, it was crazy to me how many similarities there were between Keith Raniere and my ex friend. Following this case has brought some healing to me in my own situation. I admire Sarah so much for how she handled all this; I have never judged her or other nxians for being drawn in. These were good people wanting to do good and improve theirs and others’ lives, and they were exploited by a narcissistic con man. It takes such a brave person to be a whistleblower in such a high control group. She’s a badass and someone I’d be proud to know. Thanks for featuring her story, Dr. Ramani!
You need to interview Susan Dones who was another NXVIM survivor. She has better insight into Nancy Salzman that shows she is not remorseful. Nancy from my understanding has yet to apologize to anyone she hurt. I never heard her take responsibility for the harm to her daughter in the Vow. Former members have said Nancy was continuing to do EM’s while waiting sentencing which the judge told her she was forbidden to do. I did feel sad for her when watching the Vow but now believed she was continuing the con. She is an expert in NLP. Seriously, talk to Susan Dones.
Thank you. I was in a cover group for a widely known, ever still operating cult. They exploited my vulnerabilities and disseminated propoganda. I love your poem, Sarah. I used to write poetry. I can relate. I lost my innocence, I lost a decade of my life. Coming out of denial is painful. Your children are very lucky ❤ Thank you
Also, although Sarah 'recruited' these followers who are still in the cult, at some point it becomes the individual's responsibility to do what is right for his or herself. In Recovery, there is only so long we can blame our parents for our current life problems. At adulthood, the problem becomes our own to deal with and recover from.
My own disclaimer for some comic relief prior to watching this video: This comment should not be used as a substitute for contacting real land owners while wondering where to go next when a company you works for is into exploring for oil and/or for fresh groundwater sources to do the same. Instead individual companies interested in maybe exploring oil in Alberta Canada too for the first time or to do more of the same should instead seek counselling from their own real estate brokers and one or more of Daniel Smith's offices - if you can ever get through to a real person there too. Like when while using Dos using one of Dr. Ramani's videos to rework into a fake one with those weird white spaces around her head while you are looking for women having a hard time on the family farm home quarter after her hubby could no longer work the farm. While Daniel Smith gets to ride an imaginary tractor on political propaganda from the 1950's around our province as if that is proof all of us women are being treated as equals too. Today I just got reminded again by one of the men who benefited most in the oil patch that equality for all women has already been achieved in our province. I can let him have his own opinion. While he is keeping his own cell phone only in his hip pocket always waiting for the next call from the oil patch too.
the shelf analogy is genius. that we come across something that doesn't sit right with us so we shrug and put it on a shelf. repeat till there is too much on the shelf and it collapses. such a useful way to look at it! great lesson.
I think getting an education on different types of narcissists is really important.🙏🏻
Thank u.❤
Two things Ireally loved about this interview...
First, acknowleding that forgivness isn't necessary for healing. It's often irked me when people insist that it is needed and I've just never believed it was always appropriate or necessary for everybody. This idea has always felt quite solid to me but it was still nice to hear that being affirmed.
Second, I loved Sarah's willingness to accept that it wasn't ALL bad and that makes perfect sense when knowing that so much of the cult's teachings were taken from preexisting ideas. My narcissitic step-father essentially talked me into taking an intro seminar into what felt wrong to me after the very first day of three (EST). I was blessed with an emotionally intelligent mother who had told me before going in that if I felt the need, I could call her. My response was that I'd be fine but I did indeed call her because Ifelt some ideas I'd heard were wrong, felt it in my core but I was too young to know what to do with that feeling and it was stressful because I wanted to go along/understand. My mother essentially told me that what she does with things like that is take what's good of it and leave the rest behind, which IMMEDIATELY gave me a sense of relief and it became a mantra or way to navigate my entire life thereafter.
Incredible poem. Thank you. I think I'll have to listen to it many times for its levels and insights to unfold for me. The clothesline analogy is heart wrenching.
So insightful. This was an amazing episode. Thank you both 🙏
Another extremely frightening reminder of we as individuals can become so indctrined & highly manipulated
Well done & thank goodness this woman became aware & "jumped ship" so to speak
Great to listen to your expertise re- narcissistic abuse
The power & control dynamics
& finally ending with a wonderful therapy session
Brilliant interview & yes "That beautiful poem "
Great heartlifting words
Thank you both
Wow. Sobbing after your poem. Thank you Sarah for sharing your truths. I wish you peace and comfort, and the whole happy sunlit future you have described. ❤
I think perhaps for those who are away from the narcissistic relationship feeling they are not enough, they are very much open to having another one, until they can come out of the relationship feeling empowered and stronger. Sadder but wiser; in time the sadder can turn to joy - hang on hard to the wiser!
Thank you. Watching from Alaska.
Thank you both.
Great interview. I liked marks too. I would be very interested in hearing more about nxivm.
Hi Dr. Ramani. I’m sure you’ve heard Nicki Clyne has now disavowed Keith Raniere. I would love to see you secure an interview/conversation with her, fresh out of her “fog”.
Yes, that would be a good one.❤
Or let her heal. That poor girl needs some time.
@marshmallowlol lipops
LOL
That poor girl who helped destroy lives.
Im sending this to my Daughter!! I have not been able to put my own recovery in WORDS.😊🫶 I had the same vision of the clothesline as I began the 4 th step in recovery. From Parents , Narcissistic Father, Husband , Cult leader and then substance . We get to share our Healing like Sarah said with those around us , ahead of us and behind us ( the next generation!!) Yay!! Thank You looking forward to seeing Sarah at the Collective Trauma Summit 2023 !! 😘💦🤌
💜💥🤛🙌🦋 55:5 🙏
I hade to go write a poem, this is beautiful thank you Sarah and Dr. Ramani
Amazing episode! Thank you so much.
Thank you, the podcast is amazing 🙌🏾💐
Loved this. I’ve been absolutely obsessed with this case because I feel that I’ve been in something similar, but writ small. It wasn’t a cult or an official group/company, but just a friend group. It had a leader - very charismatic, very oddball, and definitely someone who seemed to like testing boundaries to see what you’d allow or protest. Very much a verbal exhibitionist, talked about sex a lot, was very flirty with all the women, all that.
I eventually realized that he was sexually involved with all the women in our group of friends, after he had turned that kind of sexualized attention on me. I knew he was a “ladies’ man” already, but I believed there was a line he respected when it came to his female friends. No such like existed, and once things became sexual, he was very aloof, communicating about what was happening with us was like pulling teeth, etc.
Long story short, I had a lot of issues I’d never worked through, C-PTSD from past traumas (he had a knack for “recruiting” people with trauma or difficult pasts into our group, by the by), so I decided to do an IOP to address some addictions I had and mental health problems that had long been glossed over. As part of this, I had to distance myself from him at least during treatment, since he was usually the ringleader of gatherings that involved drinking, pot, psilocybin, etc. I had to keep away from all that.
Once I finished my program, I found that he had completely discarded me. After I sent him the message saying I needed a break for a little while, I never heard another word from him. Completely vanished, no explanation, no goodbye. 6 years of friendship (and a few sexually intimate times, even), completely flushed just because I asked for some time away.
That was almost 6 years ago and it still plagues me. Hearing about this case, it was crazy to me how many similarities there were between Keith Raniere and my ex friend. Following this case has brought some healing to me in my own situation.
I admire Sarah so much for how she handled all this; I have never judged her or other nxians for being drawn in. These were good people wanting to do good and improve theirs and others’ lives, and they were exploited by a narcissistic con man. It takes such a brave person to be a whistleblower in such a high control group. She’s a badass and someone I’d be proud to know.
Thanks for featuring her story, Dr. Ramani!
You need to interview Susan Dones who was another NXVIM survivor. She has better insight into Nancy Salzman that shows she is not remorseful. Nancy from my understanding has yet to apologize to anyone she hurt. I never heard her take responsibility for the harm to her daughter in the Vow. Former members have said Nancy was continuing to do EM’s while waiting sentencing which the judge told her she was forbidden to do. I did feel sad for her when watching the Vow but now believed she was continuing the con. She is an expert in NLP. Seriously, talk to Susan Dones.
How to explain that in the court: coersive control?
Thank you so much Saran and dr Ramani
Thank you. I was in a cover group for a widely known, ever still operating cult. They exploited my vulnerabilities and disseminated propoganda.
I love your poem, Sarah.
I used to write poetry.
I can relate. I lost my innocence, I lost a decade of my life. Coming out of denial is painful.
Your children are very lucky
❤
Thank you
Loss of inocence...yes
Also, although Sarah 'recruited' these followers who are still in the cult, at some point it becomes the individual's responsibility to do what is right for his or herself. In Recovery, there is only so long we can blame our parents for our current life problems. At adulthood, the problem becomes our own to deal with and recover from.
TRUE!
Many things can be true at the same time. Yes. And this person abused you.
Jness sounds like the French word for youth, "Jeunesse".
WOW
My own disclaimer for some comic relief prior to watching this video: This comment should not be used as a substitute for contacting real land owners while wondering where to go next when a company you works for is into exploring for oil and/or for fresh groundwater sources to do the same. Instead individual companies interested in maybe exploring oil in Alberta Canada too for the first time or to do more of the same should instead seek counselling from their own real estate brokers and one or more of Daniel Smith's offices - if you can ever get through to a real person there too. Like when while using Dos using one of Dr. Ramani's videos to rework into a fake one with those weird white spaces around her head while you are looking for women having a hard time on the family farm home quarter after her hubby could no longer work the farm. While Daniel Smith gets to ride an imaginary tractor on political propaganda from the 1950's around our province as if that is proof all of us women are being treated as equals too. Today I just got reminded again by one of the men who benefited most in the oil patch that equality for all women has already been achieved in our province. I can let him have his own opinion. While he is keeping his own cell phone only in his hip pocket always waiting for the next call from the oil patch too.
Even educated people get suck in to narcs
Why are we stopping for these narrations? Makes for an absurd listen.