My guess is if the women of Joseph Smiths time could be interviewed they would tell much the same story of coercion, manipulation, justification, sexual impropriety, emotional and physical intimidation and grooming by Joseph and his inner circle, both men and women. But since it happened 180 years ago, none is left to interview and the few records and journals we do have have been in the possession of the church so can't be trusted to tell everything. We know the church has a history of hiding, destroying and editing its own history to whitewash it. The stuff we do have is damning enough, just think about the stuff the church won't let come to light.
I agree with one of the first things she said in the interview. Do you believe everything you hear/read on the internet? Your last sentence is baloney. Lots of proof of unhappy/angry/ax to grind people saying stuff, But that doesn’t make it true.
same with high demand extended families with a narcissistic matriarch or patriarch, which are basically family cults. really powerful stuff, so glad they are speaking out
I have never seen this couple, but I am super loving this "hippy nerd marries corporate jock, then they take down evil empire and live happily ever after vibes." It's probably just cause she chose glasses. Anyway, good job toppling the evil empire!
I hate the term “underage women” when they’re children. 14 is not an adult in any way, shape or form. I see this term being used to soften the blow when reporting crimes of grooming and SA because….why?!?
@@HomeFromFarAway “underage girls” I’m sure is not censored if “underage women” is allowed. They are purposefully saying underage women (which doesn’t exist) instead of saying child. This is not a censorship issue, it’s a culprit-sympathiser problem. It’s like when people say “evasion” instead of “fraud” because the culprit is rich. The simple fact is it sounds less bad.
@@jessilovely yeah. I do agree, I am just currently annoyed with the algorithm deleting comments that are benign while still allowing all the troll-farms to spew their ߧ
I’m only about 50 minutes in but I just had an aha moment. I never considered we evolved to feel dissatisfied so we didn’t die. As humans, we HAVE to feel uncomfortable in order to survive so that feeling isn’t me not being good enough, unhappy, or whatever lies I tell myself. I’m SUPPOSED to feel that way. That’s beautiful.
Eh...you're not supposed to feel inadequate, though. You're supposed to be able to identify what in life needs effort and improvement, but those are often environmental factors, or mentalities, sometimes physical health situations, but feeling inadequate isn't that same thing. Feelings of personal inadequacy are more often than not a biproduct of abuse or neglect and are warning signs of a need to seek guidance related to those feelings. We are all good enough, regardless of the fact that we all have room to improve. No one is perfect and we should strive for progress rather than perfection. We should focus on what we have the power to change and learn to live with an accept the things outside our power. Take care of yourself. :)
@@Honey_Daddy yeah, that tracks too haha. Fortunately, I have two therapists - one of which is licensed in EMDR. It’s been life changing. I appreciate your comment ❤️❤️❤️
@@abracadanielle9647 :) I'm very happy to hear that you're getting therapy. I'm a firm believer that everyone should get therapy, no matter how happy, successful, or generally mentally healthy they are. It shouldn't be something that people feel is for people who are struggling, and it should be something those who are struggling should feel comfortable trying. It's been good for everyone I know who has given it an honest try, myself included. I sincerely help you're getting something out of it. Therapy is a gradual process, but we don't get skilled at anything in a one hour sitting and working through past issues is tougher than learning a skill because we've spent a lifetime "practicing the incorrect way", so to speak. I hope you always feel adequate. I don't know you, and you may be able to call to mind a number of things that could lead you to question if you truly are. I certainly can when I introspect. That said, I can guarantee that the people who know and love you can list off that says that you're an amazing and beautiful person, and we are our worst critics. Trust the words of those people who care about you as much as you'd trust them to have your back when you need it. Life is far too short not to see what a wonderful person you are and love yourself for being that person. :)
The dude seems like a real narcissist calling people losers seems like he needs to eat some more humble pie not everyone gets the type of education you got
My mother was a single mom raising us in a rural area. She was brave enough to demand to be excommunicated when she finally, after temple work and living the doctrine to the "T", decided it wasn't right for her. I am not sure why she left. She didn't leave loudly. But she was brave enough to accept nothing less than an excommunication, despite other advise and options. Maybe people can leave loudly when they have a spouse or others to leave with. My mother left alone. She was a convert, years prior. Maybe that helped. But she did a brave thing alone.
This is an inspiring and intense story. I almost didn't listen because of the weirdness of the NXIVM cult. The last few minutes summarize the lessons for ex-Mormons as well as non-Mormons "When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly".
Omg James Walberg watch The Vow! It's sooo good. Oddly relatable because the whole movement tags onto the toxic positivity, self improvement zeitgeist of the last 10 years.
Sarah and Nippy are amazing! I loved this podcast. It always amazes me how there are such parallels between Mormonism and other cults/high demand religions but its hard to see until the rose glasses are gone. Sarah - write that book!
These two are marriage goals. Such a great team and power couple. You can sense the mutual admiration and respect. Never undermining each other, always building each other up and building on what the other is saying. So wonderful and refreshing to see. They have been through hell together and came out stronger than ever.
I've said it a thousand times. The difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult ALWAYS has strings attached. It mimics spirituality in order to gain resources of some sort. Genuine religions are actually quite good for people imo. Lots of folks crave true spirituality. An example of a debatable "religion" as I've defined it would be Buddhism. Buddha didn't want money or resources unless you offered them. He never asked. His whole goal was to teach people why they were miserable and how they could escape the traps laid out by the world, but with no strings attached. He wanted enlightenment and freedom. No strings attached whatsoever. That would be a true religion.
That’s True, Yet the Dalai Lama got a million bucks from the Brofman sisters to meet with Keith Rainer, the head of NEXVIM in order to make people say see even the Dalai Lama thinks he is ok. He even gave him some sort of ceremonial long white sash.
Um religions have huge strings attached in the form of your eternal life either in heaven or hell etc. they indoctrinate from childhood through the family structure so it’s woven deep into each generation. It’s simply a matter of how controlling and demanding they are. How much they punish members for leaving etc.
Possibly. I am no longer convinced that saying religion is positive. It’s not just love. If religion was just love and kindness….it wouldn’t be considered a religion. Just love people and do good. Sans the institution.
I get a kick out of apologists who claim John Dehlin is a cult leader. Yet somehow if I don't donate to Mormon Stories, my eternal salvation isn't on the line, and if I quit watching I don't risk losing my wife, family and community. He's not telling me what to wear, what to eat/drink and even says that moving on with our lives when we no longer find Mormon Stories valuable in our lives is a healthy form of progression. That is _sooo_ culty :)
Reminds me of that one time I asked a staff at the loving hut restaurant where their church is and he pointed at his heart and said it is there. Then he pointed to his head and said the knowledge is there. They are so lovely people. The food is very cheap and delicious and they never tried to get anything more out of us as regular customers.
A quote I try to live by is this, "keep an open mind to everything but attach yourself to nothing". Because we are learning everyday, and move in and out of theories or ideas that resonate with us, we have to leave room to move on or develop different or new philosophies. If we get "stuck" we will surely drown and limit the experience of our souls journey. Something I have learned, is we are what we are seeking, a journey to rejoin our higher self and be a part of the collective or the universe. Drops of water that desire to return to the ocean we all came from, once our story or play has ended. 💫❤💫❤💫❤
Ive watched so many of these cult shows and have always wondered how people get hood winked into these cults. Its just dawned on me, im not religiously vulnerable, but i could have easily been hood winked into this type of cult because we all want to learn new skills, develop and grow.
I think it’s incredible what they’ve accomplished in helping to take down this disgusting abusive organization. However, I also picked up on a lot of misogynistic language and attitudes coming from Nippy- and classist crap. I sincerely hope he can deconstruct those very destructive ideas.
Well I'm glad I set myself strait. During this entire episode, I thought Sarah was going to speak at a THRIVE / Le-vel (multi-level marketing scheme) event. I was under the impression that Carah sold products for the company and was a top-tier leader. During the entire episode, I was banging my head against the wall thinking the hosts and guests were all drawing ties between NXIVM and Mormonism, yet not seeing the similarities between the two and multi-level marketing schemes. As you may be aware, these "businesses" operate in ways so similar to faith based groups and cults and they tragically plague the Mormon community. Now that I know "your" Thrive and "their" Thrive are totally different, I'd love to hear a podcast about the link between MLMs and the Mormon community. And I'm super glad to respect you all again. I was sad during the two hours that I lost it.
That is such a great connection! I know MLMs rope you into their programs using the same tactics described early on in this video. It would be interesting to have an episode that breaks down these tactics and manipulation techniques line by line. This issue is sooo much broader than just “cults.”
I was in the jehovah's witness from age 11 to my 40ish tryed taking my life at 14 only just stoped I'm 53 now lots of meds glad I'm in England it would cost a fortune but I'm getting help now its hurt me for life
Not sure what he means, big/fit/takes charge/leader? I think people have different meanings for saying alpha male/female. That said, when someone self IDs as Alpha, it kind of is off putting. A leader is recognized by those around them, not self proclaimed. It's a statement of superiority.
When I was 11 my mom was going to join a cult and take me n my little brother… (leaving my dad n older brother behind) I called my grandma and all her family came down from hrs away and got her to change her mind.. she was in deep depression and as an 11 year old o tho it sounded to good to be true and ratted her out lol
I love Nippy, Sarah, Mark, and Bonnie! Bonnie was so brave to leave without singing anything! Ranerie always said,"women will change the world". He was right about that!🙏🏻💜
After watching this documentary and seeing how Keith Raniere used women to groom and condition other women, it made me think about how Elizabeth Durfee and other "Mothers in Israel" recruited women to join Joseph in spiritual wifery. I don't find it a coincidence that the Relief Society was organized when polygamy was the most public and prominent.
Oaks not being embarrassed by telling a lie that can immediately be refuted with evidence by multiple people. “Shifter?” Tell people who have always believed they’d be with their loved ones after this life-most humans who believe there’s an afterlife believe that-that, no, God will separate them UNLESS they submit to a ritual the leader has invented, and which subsequent leaders will monetize by requiring a hefty fee.
I just recently watched the 2020 Starz documentary series ‘Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult’, which is a documentary of India Oxenberg’s life while an active member in NXIVM.
I think being religious is not all bad for all people. but I think as you call High Demand DOES produce guilt even for people who were not raised in that level of strictness. I was raised as a liberal Jew and I realized at a very early age that I had a spiritual connection, belief in "God" that was not being addressed by Reform Judaism. As I became more observant (but never fully) I started feeling guilty that I wasn't doing enough of the things that were demanded in the Old Testament that we follow.I've always been the middle of the road kind of person and like balance in beliefs. I have a friend who became orthodox and so I began to feel guilty. It's been about 30 years now and I'm finally okay with who I am in my mid-50s. I like the idea of the protection of a high power and I believe it. But I think that sense of divine in the universe is so much broader than any religion. Even Judaism that believes that God does not have a form, Orthodoxy believes it's so strongly that we can't write the word G oh d. I know my spiritual connection is strong without orthoxy, I experience it all the time everyday. I believe God is loving. We are called The chosen people because we were the group of people that said yes to Moses when he shared what God had told him. We don't believe in proselytizing because as a people we were persecuted throughout history. I have always questioned and and Judaism encourages it. I have always believed the Bible was written by people who were inspired and historically accurate in many ways. I also believe that it can be interpreted in a modern way. I have always loved comparing religions! My dad followed the guru in wild world before that guru went to Oregon. I was never involved in it myself but it was hard for me when he was. I was 10 and my parents were divorced. He always used beliefs and ideas to manipulate. He's toxic and now I'm a licensed therapist/advocate. I was a wreck in my teens and twenties from major emotional abuse but I made lemonade in a lot of ways but there are always scars. Sometimes I'm surprised at how healthy I am taking into account, my childhood traumas.
You are correct about God being loving. He loves us more then we can understand. Its our belief systems and/or guilt that get in our way of fully connecting with Him. I had a lot of guilt in my younger years too, but through a series of experiences over time I came to understand that He is loving, patient, encouraging, and nurturing of us despite our weaknesses, sins or things we see as lacking in ourselves.
Hhaving multiple sexual partners as women who are below you in a power structure is not ethical non monogamy. That is unithiol because of the power structure whether or not they say they're okay with the multiple partners aspect. Also, they would get in serious trouble for having multiple partners of their own, also unethical
I so LOVE when you all come together! Mormon Stories, A Little Bit Culty and Scientology: Fair Game are my Top 3 podcasts. Thank you all for teaching and sharing your personal experiences with us! Take care.
When I watched the programs: Going Clear and The Vow, I am able to see Mormonism with so much clarity. So many parallels to the LDS church. This episode has reinforced my conviction to be outspoken about the negative and harmful parts of the LDS faith. This episode has been valuable to the peace in my heart and my personal strength. Mormonism tries so hard to be a “nice” cult and it breaks my heart because the LDS faith is harmful to many. And that the Q15 have so much power and money and influence….makes those walls feel impenetrable.
I love this nippy Guy. The way he talks about defending his family and protecting his family what Great character just the way a man should be with his wife and children!
I was wondering why you were spending so much time with these fine folk, but now I understand--you want them to point out to Mormons how their religion is a cult just like the one they were involved in. So brave of them to come forward publicly to warn others of the danger of believing/following another human being.
Dudes out on a limb giving testimony to the world about how he failed protecting his wife. The man has major issues . If you have a preconceived notion on how to act in his situation and you haven’t been in his situation, then you would be considered an asshole . Because that’s what you sound like.
The role of shame in controlling people should never be underestimated. When I realized I was transgender, one of the biggest hurdles for me was "Wow, how did I ignore that?" Like there were thoughts and feelings completely erased from my perception because they connected to something I had been taught to feel shame about, without even identifying the feeling of shame because it had been associated with those thoughts for so long. In authoritarian groups, that shame plays a similar role in getting people to ignore their guts and censor their feelings -- if the group is controlling you and it makes you feel bad, that feeling is BAD and based on "Life Problems'" or some other problem IN you and your feelings. And conveniently enough, the group and its hyper-controlling rules are posed as the solution to the shame they're intentionally amplifying. It restricts people's ability to think about the harm a cult is doing to them, because it's always a problem IN them and feels shameful to even examine outside cult thought-rules.
I wonder about that too, because someone close to me that isn't practicing Mormonism anymore (was raised in it and like 6th generation) has been drawn to this "philosophical" group that just screams cultish to me.
@@kulaniwarner7262 do you have any evidence or study to back up your theory that the conditioning of high demand religions don't make you more susceptible? I get that anyone can be susceptible, but there is evidence that people in crisis, and transition, or people who lack a support system are more susceptible, are you sure high demand religions don't make a difference?
@@FatherVampire Well I agree to a point, they are almost the same thing. Very close. I think most TBM's that fallow the channel would disagree. I'm not sure if high demand religion and cult are the same thing, but I'm also not sure that they aren't the same thing 🤪
Tell your child(ren) every day to take care of themselves. Teach your children what they need each day that will take care of them. And of course how to take care for others just as well. That way new generations will hopefully like themselves better and be happy.
Wow! Thank you Sarah and Nippy for sharing your story and being brave to speak out! You have allowed the truth to come out and for so many to see all the manipulations and sex abuse! Thank you John for pointing out the similarities with mormonism and Joseph Smith!
Such an interesting podcast! Nearly 3 hours flew by so quickly. I’ll be watching The Vow next because I am so intrigued by this. Thank you Sarah & Nippy for sharing your story. And John, you are a great host!
Amazing! I think we all have a "hero's journey", or "dark night of the soul", so to speak, and we learn hard lessons sometimes, but this was part of the journey in order to help others, either avoid the trap, or have support when escaping. Thank all of you and your missions to inform, help and support others! ❤💫❤💫❤💫
Thanks for being voices of warning. This happens to BILLIONS of people around the world every day and a BIG THANKS to John and the team at Mormon Stories for another great episode. Feelings of loss of community are actually loss of what we thought we had and not the reality of what we were actually experiencing. BTW....is there a chance the you guys could change the name of the podcast to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stories"? Just asking the question. 🤣
I read & learn about a lot of crazy stuff. During the process of learning about NXIVM, I had nightmares on a regular basis. I had to take breaks from it.
I'm familiar with this story and really appreciate sarah being so willing to share. John one thing I did want to call out very early on. You said that we could call what Keith reneerie? Does ethical non monogamy and no you absolutely cannot. anyone who's familiar with the story knows that he was lying to those women and cheating that is far from ethical.
This was very helpful for me. I began my escaped from evangelical church 25 yrs ago. The similarities of this chat, Mormonism, JW. and even political parties. etc, etc are vivid. I will order your book tomorrow. Wish we could meet.
These two are courageous. I admire them. Recovering from this kind of abuse leading to mental and spiritual injury is difficult. That goodness they have each other as well as support from others. They are doing an adorable service to others with their choice to go public as they heal. I thank them.
The truly weird thing is that Nicky Clyne and other women are still out there making apologist arguments for Raniere. It's surreal to me. But thank you Sarah and Nippy for your time and truth.
Listening to Nippy Ames, about how he never fully bought in because those preaching were less successful than him reminds me so much of John C. Bennett, who was way more successful than those who were trying to control him within the church...
Love hearing from Sarah and Nippy! Their podcast is great but I also enjoy when they are the ones interviewed. It’s honestly inspiring watching their lives change for the better when they dealt with so much. They over came so much together and it’s amazing to see.
John, you said something in this podcast that may change my life. You said if we seek happiness we will always be disappointed. I have been chasing ‘happiness’ for years. I would be happy if this or this or this happened. I have heard live in the moment said a million different ways but the way you said this absolutely clicked. I am not not have I ever been Mormon (or deeply involved in any religion, really) but I want to say that I love your show and your words have impacted my life. ❤
I went to college (and still live in) Albany NY. My good friend in college lived in the same neighborhood as Raniere and all she knew was that they were weird. It wasn’t until after he was arrested that we learned how horrible it was- cults aren’t just “crazy people”- that’s putting a non-serious label on dangerous manipulative leaders AND blames victims. It was a crazy time when they were busted especially in my college community
With no Morman connection, I really didn't find this story as interesting or compelling as others that are more focussed on why I watch Morman Stories. Did not feel comfortable watching it. Usually find all your interviews helpful and fascinating.
Being able to feel shame and embarrasment is a symptom of empathy, I think. You see how something you did looks from an outside perspective and how it affects other people, and it makes you feel bad. Its never ok to shame others, especially not kids, but it is healthy and important to experience those feelings every now and then. And it is horrifying that we in society admire people who act without showing remorse or shame or embarrasment. Edit: I see shame being discussed in different ways throughout. Just want to make it clear that my comment was aimed at the description of how they saw Keith in the very start of the video.
Leaving the way they did is quite courageous. Yeah, they are profiting (net negative or positive?) and they could have been covering their butt, but actions past and present will settle that. Seems like a challenging path that they chose.
I watched just the first episode of the vow last night. I didn’t really understand the whole idea behind NXIVM..I wonder where I can find a good thorough explanation of it but the footage they put in the show from it was fascinating like it looked really good for all those people. They all looked really happy in it and I just wonder like how allllll those people are now and it collapsed…that is so traumatizing. They experienced all that growth, community, they were sooo invested in it and in themselves and all those leaders validated them all the time.
I really enjoy these interviews, but I have one request. Will the interviewer please, please stop asking leading questions and repeating himself until the guests give him the answer he wants. It comes across as incredibly patronizing. The guests can speak to their own experiences, the interviewer can speak to his. Do not invite people on to your show and then try to put words in their mouths. I’ve seen this in many of these interviews.
@@mormonstories I can go back through and look for a time stamp, but it’s always along the lines of, “And that means,” or “And that means what,” asked 2 or 3 times while the guest gets confused as to what you are trying to get them to say. They can tell us themselves what their experiences mean to them. If you have an interpretation of what it means to you, why not present it as such?
I'm so glad I listened all the way to the end, the gratitude and the healing that was evident in that last 5 or 10 minutes of conversation was just so moving. When Sarah said every time she saw the scar it motivated her to fight, it took my breath away. They are so brave and wonderful for sharing this with us. And thank you Dr. John, as always, your heart and insights and questions were right on the money. So real and loving. WONDERFUL episode!!
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“When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly” ~Sarah and Nippy. LOVE!!!
This was amazing
Thank you for sharing that quote I know some one that needs to hear that 🙏🏻
My guess is if the women of Joseph Smiths time could be interviewed they would tell much the same story of coercion, manipulation, justification, sexual impropriety, emotional and physical intimidation and grooming by Joseph and his inner circle, both men and women. But since it happened 180 years ago, none is left to interview and the few records and journals we do have have been in the possession of the church so can't be trusted to tell everything. We know the church has a history of hiding, destroying and editing its own history to whitewash it. The stuff we do have is damning enough, just think about the stuff the church won't let come to light.
I agree with one of the first things she said in the interview. Do you believe everything you hear/read on the internet? Your last sentence is baloney. Lots of proof of unhappy/angry/ax to grind people saying stuff, But that doesn’t make it true.
@@shanejensen8484 but it is true. Look on the LDS web sights and then look at the CES letter that was compiled from the church’s website.
100%! Having grown up Mormon, I explain to people who ask about Mormonism that Joseph Smith was basically a David Koresh like cult leader.
Please read Wife Number 19 by Ann-Eliza-Young. I'ts written by the 19 wife of Brigham Young who divorced him. Amazing book.
Men who call themselves “ Alpha males “ give me the ick lol
Glad I'm not the only one. I immediately got the ick when he referred to himself as an alpha male. 🤢
An alpha male with a snore 😂🤣
4:01.......9:05.........16:09......19:00 etc etc 🤧😉
but he seems a good guy, genuine.
“High demand organizations do not encourage emotional intimacy in marriages because they want you married to the organization, not to each other.”
same with high demand extended families with a narcissistic matriarch or patriarch, which are basically family cults. really powerful stuff, so glad they are speaking out
@@LinNoOneso true
Underaged women are not women. They are underaged girls, or ….children. The word you are looking for is children.
Agreed.
I have never seen this couple, but I am super loving this "hippy nerd marries corporate jock, then they take down evil empire and live happily ever after vibes." It's probably just cause she chose glasses. Anyway, good job toppling the evil empire!
she was a high level salesperson for NXIVM. She was one of the most successful at bringing other people in and getting commissions.
@@killercd7682 hope she has taken up a mission to getting people out!
Why does that guy pull up his nose so close to his mic?🤧🤧🤧🤢🤮
He lost me when he referred to himself as "Alpha"
I hate the term “underage women” when they’re children. 14 is not an adult in any way, shape or form. I see this term being used to soften the blow when reporting crimes of grooming and SA because….why?!?
because the AI and algorithm censor those words
@@HomeFromFarAway “underage girls” I’m sure is not censored if “underage women” is allowed. They are purposefully saying underage women (which doesn’t exist) instead of saying child. This is not a censorship issue, it’s a culprit-sympathiser problem. It’s like when people say “evasion” instead of “fraud” because the culprit is rich. The simple fact is it sounds less bad.
@@jessilovely yeah. I do agree, I am just currently annoyed with the algorithm deleting comments that are benign while still allowing all the troll-farms to spew their ߧ
@@HomeFromFarAway lmao I know right? Welcome to the new fucked up social media version of censored free speech 🙄
I’m only about 50 minutes in but I just had an aha moment. I never considered we evolved to feel dissatisfied so we didn’t die. As humans, we HAVE to feel uncomfortable in order to survive so that feeling isn’t me not being good enough, unhappy, or whatever lies I tell myself. I’m SUPPOSED to feel that way. That’s beautiful.
Eh...you're not supposed to feel inadequate, though. You're supposed to be able to identify what in life needs effort and improvement, but those are often environmental factors, or mentalities, sometimes physical health situations, but feeling inadequate isn't that same thing. Feelings of personal inadequacy are more often than not a biproduct of abuse or neglect and are warning signs of a need to seek guidance related to those feelings. We are all good enough, regardless of the fact that we all have room to improve. No one is perfect and we should strive for progress rather than perfection. We should focus on what we have the power to change and learn to live with an accept the things outside our power. Take care of yourself. :)
@@Honey_Daddy yeah, that tracks too haha. Fortunately, I have two therapists - one of which is licensed in EMDR. It’s been life changing. I appreciate your comment ❤️❤️❤️
@@abracadanielle9647 :) I'm very happy to hear that you're getting therapy. I'm a firm believer that everyone should get therapy, no matter how happy, successful, or generally mentally healthy they are. It shouldn't be something that people feel is for people who are struggling, and it should be something those who are struggling should feel comfortable trying. It's been good for everyone I know who has given it an honest try, myself included. I sincerely help you're getting something out of it. Therapy is a gradual process, but we don't get skilled at anything in a one hour sitting and working through past issues is tougher than learning a skill because we've spent a lifetime "practicing the incorrect way", so to speak. I hope you always feel adequate. I don't know you, and you may be able to call to mind a number of things that could lead you to question if you truly are. I certainly can when I introspect. That said, I can guarantee that the people who know and love you can list off that says that you're an amazing and beautiful person, and we are our worst critics. Trust the words of those people who care about you as much as you'd trust them to have your back when you need it. Life is far too short not to see what a wonderful person you are and love yourself for being that person. :)
@@Honey_Daddy this comment is what I needed to hear today. Thank you so much ❤️
Same here!
The dude seems like a real narcissist calling people losers seems like he needs to eat some more humble pie not everyone gets the type of education you got
My mother was a single mom raising us in a rural area. She was brave enough to demand to be excommunicated when she finally, after temple work and living the doctrine to the "T", decided it wasn't right for her. I am not sure why she left. She didn't leave loudly. But she was brave enough to accept nothing less than an excommunication, despite other advise and options. Maybe people can leave loudly when they have a spouse or others to leave with. My mother left alone. She was a convert, years prior. Maybe that helped. But she did a brave thing alone.
This is an inspiring and intense story. I almost didn't listen because of the weirdness of the NXIVM cult. The last few minutes summarize the lessons for ex-Mormons as well as non-Mormons "When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly".
Omg James Walberg watch The Vow! It's sooo good. Oddly relatable because the whole movement tags onto the toxic positivity, self improvement zeitgeist of the last 10 years.
@@melaniemarrone9521 Those are great words. Sadly, as we are all becoming more and more dumbed down we forget that words can be great and inspiring.
Sarah and Nippy are amazing! I loved this podcast. It always amazes me how there are such parallels between Mormonism and other cults/high demand religions but its hard to see until the rose glasses are gone. Sarah - write that book!
These two are marriage goals. Such a great team and power couple. You can sense the mutual admiration and respect. Never undermining each other, always building each other up and building on what the other is saying. So wonderful and refreshing to see. They have been through hell together and came out stronger than ever.
I've said it a thousand times. The difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult ALWAYS has strings attached. It mimics spirituality in order to gain resources of some sort. Genuine religions are actually quite good for people imo. Lots of folks crave true spirituality. An example of a debatable "religion" as I've defined it would be Buddhism. Buddha didn't want money or resources unless you offered them. He never asked. His whole goal was to teach people why they were miserable and how they could escape the traps laid out by the world, but with no strings attached. He wanted enlightenment and freedom. No strings attached whatsoever. That would be a true religion.
That’s True, Yet the Dalai Lama got a million bucks from the Brofman sisters to meet with Keith Rainer, the head of NEXVIM in order to make people say see even the Dalai Lama thinks he is ok. He even gave him some sort of ceremonial long white sash.
Um religions have huge strings attached in the form of your eternal life either in heaven or hell etc. they indoctrinate from childhood through the family structure so it’s woven deep into each generation. It’s simply a matter of how controlling and demanding they are. How much they punish members for leaving etc.
Possibly. I am no longer convinced that saying religion is positive. It’s not just love. If religion was just love and kindness….it wouldn’t be considered a religion. Just love people and do good. Sans the institution.
I get a kick out of apologists who claim John Dehlin is a cult leader. Yet somehow if I don't donate to Mormon Stories, my eternal salvation isn't on the line, and if I quit watching I don't risk losing my wife, family and community. He's not telling me what to wear, what to eat/drink and even says that moving on with our lives when we no longer find Mormon Stories valuable in our lives is a healthy form of progression. That is _sooo_ culty :)
Reminds me of that one time I asked a staff at the loving hut restaurant where their church is and he pointed at his heart and said it is there. Then he pointed to his head and said the knowledge is there. They are so lovely people. The food is very cheap and delicious and they never tried to get anything more out of us as regular customers.
Lauren Salsman: “This thing will take you to the next level.” Sarah, “Wait, what I’ve been doing for 12 years isn’t enough?” Bingo, Second Anointing!
A quote I try to live by is this, "keep an open mind to everything but attach yourself to nothing". Because we are learning everyday, and move in and out of theories or ideas that resonate with us, we have to leave room to move on or develop different or new philosophies. If we get "stuck" we will surely drown and limit the experience of our souls journey. Something I have learned, is we are what we are seeking, a journey to rejoin our higher self and be a part of the collective or the universe. Drops of water that desire to return to the ocean we all came from, once our story or play has ended. 💫❤💫❤💫❤
Ive watched so many of these cult shows and have always wondered how people get hood winked into these cults.
Its just dawned on me, im not religiously vulnerable, but i could have easily been hood winked into this type of cult because we all want to learn new skills, develop and grow.
Nippy podrías alejar el micrófono para aorberte los mocos?? Gracias
I seriously teared up soooo much during this. You two are such brilliant, emotionally intelligent and beautiful people.
This was soooooo helpful to this ex-Mormon! Thank you so much to all of those involved.
I think it’s incredible what they’ve accomplished in helping to take down this disgusting abusive organization. However, I also picked up on a lot of misogynistic language and attitudes coming from Nippy- and classist crap. I sincerely hope he can deconstruct those very destructive ideas.
Well I'm glad I set myself strait. During this entire episode, I thought Sarah was going to speak at a THRIVE / Le-vel (multi-level marketing scheme) event. I was under the impression that Carah sold products for the company and was a top-tier leader. During the entire episode, I was banging my head against the wall thinking the hosts and guests were all drawing ties between NXIVM and Mormonism, yet not seeing the similarities between the two and multi-level marketing schemes. As you may be aware, these "businesses" operate in ways so similar to faith based groups and cults and they tragically plague the Mormon community. Now that I know "your" Thrive and "their" Thrive are totally different, I'd love to hear a podcast about the link between MLMs and the Mormon community. And I'm super glad to respect you all again. I was sad during the two hours that I lost it.
Sorry for the confusion Jennifer!
That is such a great connection! I know MLMs rope you into their programs using the same tactics described early on in this video. It would be interesting to have an episode that breaks down these tactics and manipulation techniques line by line. This issue is sooo much broader than just “cults.”
Loved her on the NXIVM documentary, can't wait! Best wishes for healing to her and her husband
What is that?
Super gross when people snort snot in the microphone. 😫
Mic mute button.
I was in the jehovah's witness from age 11 to my 40ish tryed taking my life at 14 only just stoped I'm 53 now lots of meds glad I'm in England it would cost a fortune but I'm getting help now its hurt me for life
lol, this guy thinks he's an "alpha male".
Anyone who has to say so...
Not sure what he means, big/fit/takes charge/leader? I think people have different meanings for saying alpha male/female. That said, when someone self IDs as Alpha, it kind of is off putting. A leader is recognized by those around them, not self proclaimed. It's a statement of superiority.
When I was 11 my mom was going to join a cult and take me n my little brother… (leaving my dad n older brother behind) I called my grandma and all her family came down from hrs away and got her to change her mind.. she was in deep depression and as an 11 year old o tho it sounded to good to be true and ratted her out lol
Wow good for you 👏👏👏
I love Nippy, Sarah, Mark, and Bonnie! Bonnie was so brave to leave without singing anything! Ranerie always said,"women will change the world". He was right about that!🙏🏻💜
After watching this documentary and seeing how Keith Raniere used women to groom and condition other women, it made me think about how Elizabeth Durfee and other "Mothers in Israel" recruited women to join Joseph in spiritual wifery.
I don't find it a coincidence that the Relief Society was organized when polygamy was the most public and prominent.
There's a lot of similarities to what Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislane Maxwell were doing as well
Oaks not being embarrassed by telling a lie that can immediately be refuted with evidence by multiple people. “Shifter?” Tell people who have always believed they’d be with their loved ones after this life-most humans who believe there’s an afterlife believe that-that, no, God will separate them UNLESS they submit to a ritual the leader has invented, and which subsequent leaders will monetize by requiring a hefty fee.
I just recently watched the 2020 Starz documentary series ‘Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult’, which is a documentary of India Oxenberg’s life while an active member in NXIVM.
Honestly Nippy triggers me. I know it's my issue but I find him very snobby and arrogant.
This was riveting. Thanks so much for drawing the jaw dropping parallels with Mormonism.
I think being religious is not all bad for all people. but I think as you call High Demand DOES produce guilt even for people who were not raised in that level of strictness. I was raised as a liberal Jew and I realized at a very early age that I had a spiritual connection, belief in "God" that was not being addressed by Reform Judaism. As I became more observant (but never fully) I started feeling guilty that I wasn't doing enough of the things that were demanded in the Old Testament that we follow.I've always been the middle of the road kind of person and like balance in beliefs. I have a friend who became orthodox and so I began to feel guilty. It's been about 30 years now and I'm finally okay with who I am in my mid-50s. I like the idea of the protection of a high power and I believe it. But I think that sense of divine in the universe is so much broader than any religion. Even Judaism that believes that God does not have a form, Orthodoxy believes it's so strongly that we can't write the word G oh d. I know my spiritual connection is strong without orthoxy, I experience it all the time everyday. I believe God is loving. We are called The chosen people because we were the group of people that said yes to Moses when he shared what God had told him. We don't believe in proselytizing because as a people we were persecuted throughout history. I have always questioned and and Judaism encourages it. I have always believed the Bible was written by people who were inspired and historically accurate in many ways. I also believe that it can be interpreted in a modern way. I have always loved comparing religions! My dad followed the guru in wild world before that guru went to Oregon. I was never involved in it myself but it was hard for me when he was. I was 10 and my parents were divorced. He always used beliefs and ideas to manipulate. He's toxic and now I'm a licensed therapist/advocate. I was a wreck in my teens and twenties from major emotional abuse but I made lemonade in a lot of ways but there are always scars. Sometimes I'm surprised at how healthy I am taking into account, my childhood traumas.
You are correct about God being loving. He loves us more then we can understand. Its our belief systems and/or guilt that get in our way of fully connecting with Him.
I had a lot of guilt in my younger years too, but through a series of experiences over time I came to understand that He is loving, patient, encouraging, and nurturing of us despite our weaknesses, sins or things we see as lacking in ourselves.
Hhaving multiple sexual partners as women who are below you in a power structure is not ethical non monogamy. That is unithiol because of the power structure whether or not they say they're okay with the multiple partners aspect. Also, they would get in serious trouble for having multiple partners of their own, also unethical
These two are so cool and FUNNY :) Thanks for bringing them on. I love how comfortable each of you are in the episode.
I so LOVE when you all come together! Mormon Stories, A Little Bit Culty and Scientology: Fair Game are my Top 3 podcasts. Thank you all for teaching and sharing your personal experiences with us! Take care.
Yes! I call Tuesday, Podcast Day because I catch up on all 3 you mentioned.
Nippy needs to stop interrupting Sarah and get off his fake NXIVM toxic male bs
When I watched the programs: Going Clear and The Vow, I am able to see Mormonism with so much clarity. So many parallels to the LDS church.
This episode has reinforced my conviction to be outspoken about the negative and harmful parts of the LDS faith.
This episode has been valuable to the peace in my heart and my personal strength. Mormonism tries so hard to be a “nice” cult and it breaks my heart because the LDS faith is harmful to many. And that the Q15 have so much power and money and influence….makes those walls feel impenetrable.
I love this nippy Guy. The way he talks about defending his family and protecting his family what Great character just the way a man should be with his wife and children!
I was wondering why you were spending so much time with these fine folk, but now I understand--you want them to point out to Mormons how their religion is a cult just like the one they were involved in. So brave of them to come forward publicly to warn others of the danger of believing/following another human being.
Nippy has issues. Speaking pattern, body language, way he talks to his wife, etc. Was hard to watch at times.
What do you have against Nippy? He spoke normally and was not disrespectful to Sarah. Perhaps you have issues?
He seemed uncomfortable a little bit
Dudes out on a limb giving testimony to the world about how he failed protecting his wife. The man has major issues . If you have a preconceived notion on how to act in his situation and you haven’t been in his situation, then you would be considered an asshole . Because that’s what you sound like.
The role of shame in controlling people should never be underestimated. When I realized I was transgender, one of the biggest hurdles for me was "Wow, how did I ignore that?" Like there were thoughts and feelings completely erased from my perception because they connected to something I had been taught to feel shame about, without even identifying the feeling of shame because it had been associated with those thoughts for so long.
In authoritarian groups, that shame plays a similar role in getting people to ignore their guts and censor their feelings -- if the group is controlling you and it makes you feel bad, that feeling is BAD and based on "Life Problems'" or some other problem IN you and your feelings. And conveniently enough, the group and its hyper-controlling rules are posed as the solution to the shame they're intentionally amplifying. It restricts people's ability to think about the harm a cult is doing to them, because it's always a problem IN them and feels shameful to even examine outside cult thought-rules.
There are only 2 genders, male and female
I wonder if being in a high demand religion makes you more susceptible to being drawn into a cult
I wonder about that too, because someone close to me that isn't practicing Mormonism anymore (was raised in it and like 6th generation) has been drawn to this "philosophical" group that just screams cultish to me.
Nope, religion has nothing to do with it. Literally everyone is susceptible to manipulation and brain washing.
@@kulaniwarner7262 do you have any evidence or study to back up your theory that the conditioning of high demand religions don't make you more susceptible? I get that anyone can be susceptible, but there is evidence that people in crisis, and transition, or people who lack a support system are more susceptible, are you sure high demand religions don't make a difference?
I think the two are, effectively, pretty synonymous; you can't have a "high-demand" religion without it also being cult-like.
@@FatherVampire Well I agree to a point, they are almost the same thing. Very close. I think most TBM's that fallow the channel would disagree. I'm not sure if high demand religion and cult are the same thing, but I'm also not sure that they aren't the same thing 🤪
Tell your child(ren) every day to take care of themselves. Teach your children what they need each day that will take care of them. And of course how to take care for others just as well. That way new generations will hopefully like themselves better and be happy.
Wow! Thank you Sarah and Nippy for sharing your story and being brave to speak out! You have allowed the truth to come out and for so many to see all the manipulations and sex abuse! Thank you John for pointing out the similarities with mormonism and Joseph Smith!
Lack of embarrassment… Isn’t that something a narcissist or a psychopath would easily skip?
I loved that she paid back all her students before she and closed her center before she left. Then, she worked to shut down the whole company.
Such an interesting podcast! Nearly 3 hours flew by so quickly. I’ll be watching The Vow next because I am so intrigued by this. Thank you Sarah & Nippy for sharing your story. And John, you are a great host!
Amazing! I think we all have a "hero's journey", or "dark night of the soul", so to speak, and we learn hard lessons sometimes, but this was part of the journey in order to help others, either avoid the trap, or have support when escaping. Thank all of you and your missions to inform, help and support others!
❤💫❤💫❤💫
I'm definitely not pro Mormon but Joseph Smith would have wiped the floor with Keith. Joseph fought wars, Keith took advantage of the rich and dumb
The host seems to really get this organization and topic and asks the right questions
Wow... loved this episode. Also binged watched the vow and DANG. THIS IS INSANE. looking Forward to season 2!
Now this will be an interesting and dare I say EPIC episode 👍
This would be so much better if the moderator would stop interrupting and injecting his own views and experiences. Let the guests tell their story!
Thanks for being voices of warning. This happens to BILLIONS of people around the world every day and a BIG THANKS to John and the team at Mormon Stories for another great episode. Feelings of loss of community are actually loss of what we thought we had and not the reality of what we were actually experiencing. BTW....is there a chance the you guys could change the name of the podcast to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stories"? Just asking the question. 🤣
Nexium like the heartburn medication.
Williams Jeffrey Perez Robert Jackson Robert
42:00 Mormonism does the same thing with how it provides dependent solutions for the perpetual problems it created for you.
I read & learn about a lot of crazy stuff. During the process of learning about NXIVM, I had nightmares on a regular basis. I had to take breaks from it.
I'm familiar with this story and really appreciate sarah being so willing to share. John one thing I did want to call out very early on. You said that we could call what Keith reneerie? Does ethical non monogamy and no you absolutely cannot. anyone who's familiar with the story knows that he was lying to those women and cheating that is far from ethical.
This was very helpful for me. I began my escaped from evangelical church 25 yrs ago. The similarities of this chat, Mormonism, JW. and even political parties. etc, etc are vivid. I will order your book tomorrow. Wish we could meet.
good interview..so important!
John such a good, informative podcast. Thank you for sharing!
Wow this is incredible! I love how protective Nippy is of his family! So inspiring!!
These two are courageous. I admire them. Recovering from this kind of abuse leading to mental and spiritual injury is difficult. That goodness they have each other as well as support from others. They are doing an adorable service to others with their choice to go public as they heal. I thank them.
"We weren't encouraged to get married. We were discouraged from getting married."
"Yeah well that's because Keith wanted. . .what he wanted."
0.0
The truly weird thing is that Nicky Clyne and other women are still out there making apologist arguments for Raniere. It's surreal to me. But thank you Sarah and Nippy for your time and truth.
Listening to Nippy Ames, about how he never fully bought in because those preaching were less successful than him reminds me so much of John C. Bennett, who was way more successful than those who were trying to control him within the church...
Love hearing from Sarah and Nippy! Their podcast is great but I also enjoy when they are the ones interviewed. It’s honestly inspiring watching their lives change for the better when they dealt with so much. They over came so much together and it’s amazing to see.
Nicole Kidman is not a scientologist! Just Tom cruise!
You guys realize that you're also describing Donald Trump?
To a TEE!!!!!!
Lack of humility, never admitting fault, doubling down when threatened, feeling entitled - pure narcissism....
Thank you, again. Watching from Alaska.
Tracked this from the beginning.
👍
Appreciate all you guys do!!! Thanks 😊
Loved the documentary about it; love hearing stories similar to all that you talk about
Awesome episode ❤️✌🏼
God-shaped hole that John 14-17 can fill.
Jesus never taught anything except John 14-17
Sounds so similar with Landmark Forum!
That guy is such a rebel even in his cult.
The similarities between Keith and JS is frightening.
Thank you for affirming my personal departure from a high demand pastor.
John, you said something in this podcast that may change my life. You said if we seek happiness we will always be disappointed. I have been chasing ‘happiness’ for years. I would be happy if this or this or this happened. I have heard live in the moment said a million different ways but the way you said this absolutely clicked. I am not not have I ever been Mormon (or deeply involved in any religion, really) but I want to say that I love your show and your words have impacted my life. ❤
Be Here NOW
I went to college (and still live in) Albany NY. My good friend in college lived in the same neighborhood as Raniere and all she knew was that they were weird. It wasn’t until after he was arrested that we learned how horrible it was- cults aren’t just “crazy people”- that’s putting a non-serious label on dangerous manipulative leaders AND blames victims. It was a crazy time when they were busted especially in my college community
What an awful cult
Love your interview style. ❤️
I don’t believe you understand the Sacrament of Reconciliation in Roman Catholicism. It is not about “power and control” over the person.
This was so interesting. Great interview.
With no Morman connection, I really didn't find this story as interesting or compelling as others that are more focussed on why I watch Morman Stories. Did not feel comfortable watching it. Usually find all your interviews helpful and fascinating.
Being able to feel shame and embarrasment is a symptom of empathy, I think. You see how something you did looks from an outside perspective and how it affects other people, and it makes you feel bad. Its never ok to shame others, especially not kids, but it is healthy and important to experience those feelings every now and then. And it is horrifying that we in society admire people who act without showing remorse or shame or embarrasment.
Edit: I see shame being discussed in different ways throughout. Just want to make it clear that my comment was aimed at the description of how they saw Keith in the very start of the video.
Leaving the way they did is quite courageous. Yeah, they are profiting (net negative or positive?) and they could have been covering their butt, but actions past and present will settle that. Seems like a challenging path that they chose.
Have you heard of NOHIID
(Nation Of Hebrew Izrael In Diaspora) ?
Many of the psychological practices discussed here, they do
Wonderful guests, wonderful host, great show!!!
I watched just the first episode of the vow last night. I didn’t really understand the whole idea behind NXIVM..I wonder where I can find a good thorough explanation of it but the footage they put in the show from it was fascinating like it looked really good for all those people. They all looked really happy in it and I just wonder like how allllll those people are now and it collapsed…that is so traumatizing. They experienced all that growth, community, they were sooo invested in it and in themselves and all those leaders validated them all the time.
Allison Mack was in Nexium. She plead guilty and is serving 3 years in jail. She was also a recruiter.
Wow, this is helping me to deconstruct a Health Coach whom has some similar sales techniques, but she's not a socio-path.
I really enjoy these interviews, but I have one request. Will the interviewer please, please stop asking leading questions and repeating himself until the guests give him the answer he wants. It comes across as incredibly patronizing. The guests can speak to their own experiences, the interviewer can speak to his. Do not invite people on to your show and then try to put words in their mouths. I’ve seen this in many of these interviews.
Do you have an example Merran?
@@mormonstories I can go back through and look for a time stamp, but it’s always along the lines of, “And that means,” or “And that means what,” asked 2 or 3 times while the guest gets confused as to what you are trying to get them to say. They can tell us themselves what their experiences mean to them. If you have an interpretation of what it means to you, why not present it as such?
I'm so glad I listened all the way to the end, the gratitude and the healing that was evident in that last 5 or 10 minutes of conversation was just so moving. When Sarah said every time she saw the scar it motivated her to fight, it took my breath away. They are so brave and wonderful for sharing this with us. And thank you Dr. John, as always, your heart and insights and questions were right on the money. So real and loving. WONDERFUL episode!!