So fun fact: Oogie's revenge and Pumpkin King were so interconnected in their releases that when I got the strategy guide for Oogie's revenge, the last 3rd of the guide is just the strategy guide for the GBA game. Also fun fact: In Oogie's Revenge, its possible to make a sleeping potion and before making it to Finklestein's fight to make the fight easier
Find it funny how these games came out the same year as Kingdom Hearts 2, especially Oogies Revenge which had Oogie Boogie ressurected and turned into a giant monster
I find it so funny that in Kingdom Hearts 1 and Oogie's Revenge, two games with Oogie Boogie as the final boss (or the final boss of the world in KH1's case), he turns into a building in both of them.
The use of the shrunken head as a health item in the first game actually recontextualizes it as a gift in the movie, as the intent behind it becomes oddly wholesome. By giving it as a gift, it becomes a wish of good health to the reciever.
@@elizabethbentley2582 but some of the gifts were undoubtedly meant to cause fear (but to jack and the town, "fear" is a good thing as its all they know. hence that creepy worm eating everything and the little floating vampire doll.)
One of the best moments for sure. It took me awhile to reach that cutscene since Oogie kept saying, "Now I'm motivated," before killing me with Judgement Cut.
Interesting fact: In a blurb about Pumpkin King in an issue of GamePro they say that Oogie used to have an August holiday all about bugs. Apparently he "ruined" it somehow before arriving in Halloween Town.
I’m drawing a blank if they mention it in either of the games directly (I think the Pumpkin King does?), but I believe they name drop Bug Day! And also Crawloween lol
Fun fact, There are official prequel and sequel books The prequel dwells on the Original Pumpkin King being a dick. In it Oogie Boogie and Jack were the best of friends with them always pranking each other and always competing. With both winning and loosing equally. The Sequel dwells on The Pumpkin Queen, which is based on Sally's POV. In the Original Nightmare Before Christmas Poem, Jack and Sally have a ton of kids lol
@@KayJulers Crawloween is what Oogie wanted to rename Halloween after he took over, his native holiday was Bug Day before humans stopped celebrating it and it ceased to exist. It makes you wonder if Thanksgiving Town will have the same fate, considering our world is doing a good job at making people abandon Thanksgiving and jump straight to Christmas.
My headcanon was always that a "Turkey king" was the ruler of Thanksgiving, a "Leprechaun King" for St Patrick's and Uncle Sam for Independence but your ideas made me laugh more XD
According to the sequel book the Thanksgiving Town is Colonial era American town with lots of farms of pumpkins, corn, turkey, and presumably other foods of the fall/holiday. But its not hard to imagine its ruler being called the "Turkey Mayor/King", since Jack is the "Pumpkin King".
For sure! I think one of the most remarkable, small touches for each of the titles was: 1. Jack gains a new idle animation (and the best one) whenever Zero is with him in The Pumpkin King. 2. I learned very recently that some of the area themes change in Oogie's Revenge whenever you pass a certain obstacle. I don't think the average shovelware title would go to those efforts, which is why I really respect them.
Theres quite a bit of behind the scenes content for the PS2 game available to the public. In Japan there is a special disc for the game that shows Tim Burton meeting up with the Capcom devs and watching them play the game as he comments about it as well as showing him the different designs for Jack. On the disc theres an interview with the director and the artist for the game including a concept art gallery. Inside the two Japanese guide books theres some concept art and hi rez drawings of the characters. I bought these last year and happy to have them. Lastly, a special edition in Japan comes with a soundtrack CD.
Oogie's Revenge has my favourite portrayal of Finkelstein next to the OG film. He's just so happy talking to Jack about his inventions, and he even complimented Jack's Sandy costume that Sally made. Sally even tells Jack to save the Doctor, showing she actually does care about her creator! The game itself does have some stuff I'm not a fan of, but when it comes to the writing, world-building, and characters, it's top-notch! There IS another "sequel" of Nightmare in the form of a novel called Long Live The Pumpkin Queen. It focuses on Sally, and... it sucks. The author or Disney or whoever had the BRILLIANT idea (sarcasm) of retconning Sally's origins of being Finkelstein's creation/assistant and have her instead be a princess of "Dream Town". They also changed Fink from an ornery but well-meaning and respected member of Halloween Town into a child kidnapper, kidnapping Sally when she was a child and drugging her with a "Forgetting Potion" because he... *looks at notes* ...wanted a creation/daughter but... he... sucked at making things. 🤦♀ The author has a HUGE vendetta against my favourite character and I hate it. 😿 ANYWAY! The reason I bring up this tome of retcons and character assassinations is because they DID try and give new lore for the Holidays worlds, which includes giving Valentine's Town a ruler in the form of a Queen named Ruby, portraying Thankgiving Town as a place where everyone is constantly eating (????????) and Independence Town, where citizens and visitors alike go, I assume, blind and deaf from the constant barrage of fireworks. Also the Queen of England makes an appearance. And all the Holiday Leaders have a meeting about climate change. gdi Disney.
Yeah, I like they want to explore these characters and world but that book is "meh", Sally don't need a new origin story, still the only official canon is the movie itself (even Henry Selick wants to create a Jack prequel but for Tim Burton the film is perfect as it is)
@@TheHalloweenSpirit I even pre-ordered the book 'cause I was excited to read a story about Sally, and people were saying the book was gonna delve into her past, which I ASSUMED was gonna be her early life as a creation, and her and Fink's relationship. Silly me, right? 🙄
I just saw this book and was waiting until I had spare change. Thank you for saving me as I don't make a lot and that would have killed me to know I spent my fun money on it
I still have Oogie's Revenge, and I think about it a lot. Other than Kingdom Hearts and Rachet & Clank, this was my favorite game for a long time. And honestly, it still holds up despite its clunk and age
Uncle Sam absolutely is the leader of Independence Day town. Uncle Sam does not necessarily represent American freedom but the representative of Independence as a whole.
21:53 depend if you consider it canon or not but in the book Long Live The Pumpkin Queen, Jack and Sally meet the ruler of Valentines Day Town and her name is Ruby Valentino, her citizens are hundreds of baby cupids flying around Also in Independence Day town the book says it’s always night with no stars in the sky and a never ending firework show gonna on 24/7, while in St Patrick’s day Town there’s a miniature village where a bunch of tiny leprechauns live
That's an extremely interesting concept for Independence Day Town, but living there has to be a nightmare unless you just become numb to the sound of fireworks lol.
It was an alright book, with a interesting villain, but I felt like if it had a movie made for it, the movie would have been like 30 minutes, unless they did some added scenes. Also The Valentines Day Town had more citizens then just cupids (cupids start out as "normal babies" and grow wings later), there were people made of chocolate (and maybe candy) and they came in some combination of pink, red, white, and brown (like milk chocolate) but otherwise look like humans in fancy clothes. No one was single in Valentine Town...besides the cupids (for obvious reasons), and the queen (who had a crush on Shakespeare, but didn't know he passed on decades ago on Earth).
@KayJulers I always saw Independence Day town as those 1950s nuclear family neighborhoods where they have barbecues everyday along with fireworks lmao
5:11 no disrespect, I just genuinely find it hilarious that you're giving spoiler warnings for a movie that released over 30 years ago and games that released well over 20 years ago 🤣
I forget if it was in the movie or Kingdom Hearts, but I'm fairly sure they implied a particular bug in his burlap body was the real him, since the last one talked in a high-pitch silly voice. I assume each bug he "ate" was in fact forced to help move the burlap body (or maybe they get mindcontrolled by the Oogie bug?). Or maybe the Oogie bug is his "Brain Bug".
The games for two different systems and being in two different genres reminds me of the Monster House games. The Gameboy advance one (the one I owned) was like an old top down zelda game combined with backtracking to access new areas like a metroidvania (I don’t know the particular genre this would fall under) meanwhile the console version of the game (with the same name as the Gameboy advance game) was a survival horror game. Very interesting to see Nightmare Before Christmas games had a similar difference in genres.
I had no idea that they did this with the Monster House games, but that's pretty neat! It's also quite the coincidence to have another set of games based on a Halloween time movie tackle completely different genres.
I remember owning both games when they first released and enjoying them quite a bit 😊. I liked unlocking Jack’s alternate costumes in Oogie’s revenge. I remember getting so lost during the hinterlands portion(didn’t have a guide and didn’t think to look it up). I also loved how they redid some of the songs from the movie to fit what was happening. One part I was not fan of was that you could only upgrade your abilities in the 2nd level, which meant having to replay it if I wanted to upgrade anything. I would love to see either one get a stream release. Modders could probably have fun with it.
I admittedly got pretty lost on the Hinterlands portion as well. Really cool environment and nice music, but certainly felt like a crazy version of the Lost Woods.
I feel like a cool idea would've been if jack gotten different costumes in different worlds like easter costume with bounching eggs or the independence day with fireworks as projectiles
The Nightmare Before Christmas, What We Do In The Shadows, Garfield's Halloween, Trick or Treat, Beetlejuice, The Legend of Sleepy Hallow, and Sleepy Hallow are my traditional Halloween Must Watches.
I absolutely adore the original film, and it's probably the thing that made me appreciate claymation as an artform when I was younger. I recently found out about this game a few days before Halloween because one of my pals on discord brought it up outta nowhere and curiosity got the best out of me, and so far? I've been having such a blast playing through it (as of writing this, I just obtained the Pumpkin King ability.) It's funny how I got this video recommended to me a week afterwards. Ngl, I'd love to see a modding scene rise for Oogie's Revenge, There's so much potential to expand the combat, add custom movesets to the game, make visual changes, give some of the mechanics some spit and polish I'd think what I'd like to see out of modding this game the most is fixing my main issue with the game by replacing the regular fight theme with literally anything but "This Is Halloween." (or at least an instrumental) and lowering Jack's voiceline frequency. Because as much as I dont mind it, the last thing I would want is Jack yelling out "Soul Robber!" into my ringing ears like it's that one scene from Akira
I was so obsessed with Nightmare back when I was in junior high, was my favorite movie for years. So, of course, I had Oogie's Revenge preordered and got it the day it came out. I have pretty fond memories of the game, would enjoy a chance to play it again.
It's really neat how Oogie's Revenge has an upbeat rendition of Sally's Song. But what if the music department took a page from the Macross/Robotech Anime and had Sally singing in the background for a Boss fight with that same upbeat melody?
I hope you've recovered from your sickness! I have been sick aswell, and its been effecting me a lot lol I appreciated this video as background noise for drawing, I knew there were tnbc games, but I didn't know the history or amount, so it was engaging and fun to learn more about them! earned a sub :>
Yes, I’ve been feeling a lot better! Thank you! I’m sorry to hear you’ve gotten hit by illness as well, but I hope you feel better soon! I also hope that it was a fruitful drawing session.
22:22 You know, the US is not the only country that celebrates independence day, maybe that door is about all countries who had to get their independence
St. Patrick's Day town is just a tavern with gold 4-leaf clover patterns carved into the wooden walls, with nice green corduroy upholstery, studded with gold. The drinks are served in green mugs with gold rims or glasses with 4-leaf clovers painted on them, and the coasters look like big gold coins. The barkeeper is just a short ginger man with an Irish accent and slightly pointed ears, and he's also the ruler of the town with his big bucked hat being like his crown. His name is Seán, Seán Leprechaun. St. Patrick's is just the name of the tavern, and has a portrait of the human guy St. Patrick somewhere on the walls. It's perfection.
Independence Day Town is just some random town in the USA stuck in this Groundhog Day time loop of the 4th of July, restarting the day after the final firework goes off in the night sky. Some Eagle furry decked out in stars and stripes is president of that town.
Man it's actually crazy to unpack the forgotten memories i have from the ps2 version of oogie's revenge! If not for this video i may have never remembered playing that game, as stuff like kingdom hearts had my interest moreso at that time. Great video and thanks for covering the game!
I think Oogie's Revenge is truly the one to point a finger at when questioning my obsession with this universe. Not being able to beat Cerberus on DMC 3 as a kid, I guess this ended up being my alternative. I actually played the game before ever seeing the movie, so I usually had to get my mom to do the corpse kid quiz for me.
Special fact too is that the Thespian Jack costume in Oogie's Revenge would also have a figure doll released in SDCC 2008 as Othello Jack. The Thespian outfit could just refer to theater in general, but it's interesting the people who were manufacturing the doll pick this specific Shakespearean play. Though thinking Jack as Othello and Oogie as Iago, it probably fits.
I remember loving the combat in Oogie’s Revenge. I’d dodge around the arena like I was dancing and hit strategic attacks, usually in rhythm to the music playing. Man, I played the heck out of this game!
I never forgot this game. I remember everytime we would go to Walmart, i would beg my dad to buy this for me, and his excuse was it was demonic, but he finally did lol. I never beat the final boss because it was too hard for me at the time.
Oogie's Revenge has one of the most broken grab mechanics in the game, and I'm not even talking about its basic grab. If you charge up (either via holding down the attack button, or taunting an enemy for an instant charge), and grab while mashing the grab button, you will start turning into an absolute tornado of death. It lasts as long as the Soul Robber can hold out (indicated by its color), but can be extended through the blue soul items. There's a secret mission in Dr. Finklesteins Lab where there are 100 enemies in a small room. If you go in there with max Blue Souls in your pocket, you're going to have a GOOOOOOOOD time.
@@ThePhantomSafetyPin Never said it was a glitch. I did say it was one of the most broken mechanics in the game, though. Broken, as in, it can trivialize parts of the game if done correctly and consistently due to how powerful it is.
I love Oogie’s Revenge! It was such a stupidly cool game. The Soul Rubber was a cool mechanic and the transformation were cool and being able to explore Halloween town was awesome. Plus the boss battles were something else.
You know, I really enjoyed the environments of oogie's revenge. Especially seeing the residential area of halloween town and the pumpkin patch as well, it really helped fill out the world a bit more. I also really just like the details in the residential area. Especially the mayor's house, given how insane it looks and you can kind of see how the hell and how the Halloween Town residents with their lives or their clothes hanging up between buildings and what not the sewers and the vampire brothers just very interesting.
I’m here from the future to let you know that Disney Acknowledged both of these games when they released both the Pumpkin King Jack skin and Sally skin for Halloween.
I got both of these games from my daughter when she was little, And we had so much fun beating both of these. Glad to hear you give Kingdom Hearts a nod though because I think that's the best representation done in video game
I was finally just recently able to play oogies revenge. You can actually emulate it my friend and I found out which was super exciting. It’s a game I played as a kid but never beat and had been wanting to revisit it for years so this video couldn’t have come at a more perfect time. I think anyone who is a big fan of the movie like myself and enjoys action adventure style games should defiantly play this game. These type of games don’t really exist anymore and you can tell Capcom defiantly put some love into it.
this video has just reminded me of a Disney short stories book my mother got me when i was little. in one of them, it’s all about how jack and father christmas have become good friends after the events of the movie. i think the plot was jack trying to find the perfect christmas present for father christmas but i’m not entirely sure. the story also makes a reference to the other towns and their leaders but again not sure what is said about them. i’ve been trying to track down the book in our attic for a long time but i cannot find it, which is infuriating since i want to reread the story.
I really enjoyed watching let's plays of Oogie Boogie's Revenge growing up. It was always fun to watch around Halloween time. It was nice to see both games covered
Still so wild that to finish off Oogie, Jack put on a frickin' COWBOY hat and broke down the sickest dance moves to break Oogie's spirit and leave only a pile of bugs
Oogie's revenge finishes the story of Nightmare before Christmas... which makes it nt need a sequel like Disney wants regardless of Tim saying it's not necessary
I remember the PS2 game very well. My brother made it a tradition to play it every year on halloween until the ps2 broke. But whenever I play Kingdom Hearts and see Jack, I instantly remember that game. something that doesn't happen when I watch the movie. Odd.
I’ve actually seen a few people note how they found out about the movie through outside material like Kingdom Hearts, which is really interesting to see!
Happy Halloween! I just recently discovered you from Zero Escape and Xenoblade and now you are talking about a GBA game from my childhood! Happily excited for more!
Thank you so much for creating and sharing the story! I really appreciated it :) I've made a LEGO 'The Night Before Christmas' song, so it's fun to learn more about the story.
Man this brings me back to the good old days of me and my friends sitting around eating pizza on weekends just playing game after game of Bonebreaker until the sun came up
I'm blown away at how much effort was put into The Pumpkin King. I had no idea that game existed until this video but I first expected it to be like any other generic licensed kids game. The attention to detail, sprite work and passion put into it is very impressive, it seems like a pretty cool game. I can imagine the devs were really passionate about their work
The fact that the stop motion in this movie (which came out in 1993, mind you!!) looks better than most modern CGI really shows how much care and love was put into this movie. This is absolutely my favorite movie ever made
I've actually never seen Nightmare before Christmas until last Friday. My only experience with it was Kingdom hearts 1 and 2. So I thought there were at least 2 movies of it.
I loved the ps2 game and i remember the time i tried to 100% the game. I dont know if it was just me but the chapter where you had to capture the 4 vampires and put them back in the coffins really drove me crazy. The time limit to get an S rank was so obnoxious. But at the end walking around as jack dressed up as the phantom of the opera, which you only got by getting an S rank in every chapter and finnishing the 2 bonus chapters, was absolutely worth it.
21:58 we actually get to meet the leaders of St Patrick’s day town, Valentine’s Day town and maybe even thanksgiving town (but I can’t remember for sure) in ‘Long Live the Pumpkin Queen’
It's funny how I learned of this movie from Kingdom Hearts, and it was my favorite world to visit, I actually thought it was an original world not from Disney. I loved the Ps2 game.
I can't really consider the Pumpkin Queen book that's by a separate author to be canon especially considering how things ended between Tim Burton and Disney, on top of it being Burton's legal team that were the ones that made comments and gave the rights with Burton making no comments (as of yet I have found no direct quote from him instead being through legal team) Just how long its been alone shows that he has no real attachment to the Pumpkin Queen making it not canon. Good or not it's only ever going to be a fanfic to me and if Disney wants to do their usual thing now and remake their world for "modern audiences" I'm sure that won't matter to them.
NBC is one of my favorites of all time. I was born in 93' and watched this movie so many times as a kid that the vhs tape came apart in our vcr. Now all three of my kids love it. My youngest just watched it for the first time last week. Such a fantastic movie.
Independence Day Town is run by Uncle Sam. That one was easy. Thanksgiving Town however is a tough one. Nobody thinks of Christopher Columbus on that day, so it cant be him. Everyone just thinks of food and the family together. So I'd have to agree with making it be run by a giant turkey however that also makes no sense because the main feast on Thanksgiving is turkeys. So the giant turkey would be cool with having his brethren eaten and i dont think he would like that. So with more time to think about it, Thanksgiving Town would make more sense being run by 2 equally matched bosses. A powerful hulking unnamed Pilgrim leader (real Bible thumper kind) dressed as a pilgrim of course and a hulking unnamed Indian Chief dressed in full Indian ceremony attire. Yes, definitely. I am liking that idea more and more now. Two powerful best friends trying to defend against The Pumpkin King which themewise fits well with Thanksgiving as well since pumpkins are associated with Thanksgiving too. Yeah thats my final answer. 🤠👍 Edit: And yes although nobody thinks of Christopher Columbus specifically, all kids do remember the Pilgrims and the Indians coming together for the feast.
Independence Day Town and Thanksgiving Town shouldn't be in there imo, they're both US only holidays, and five main holidays would have been enough, especially since we only see two of them anyways (so far) but on top of that, if they HAD to have seven, what about new years? April fools day? You could probably even do something with mother's Day ffs. Or like, maybe an Equinox town? You know, April fools day really could be cool. I just don't wanna go to NNN town
I remember playing these 2 games growing up. Unfortunately, I never beat either of them. The PS2 one, I actually got stuck in some chapter and couldn't figure out how to pass it, and we didn't really have YT playthroughs way back then, sooo yeah. I remember fighting that spider, bit idk if that was the chapter I got stuck on.
Fun fact: the pumpkin king gba game is getting its own visual novel retelling the Events with a unique spin by having oogie and jack be friends competeting in a friendly competition to get the position of the pumpkin king while the now retired pumpkin king wanting to manipulate his succsessor so he can rule Halloween town beyond his retirement by having his sucsessor which ends up to be jack to do his dirty work but jack finds out about the pumpkin king manipulating him and he defeats him and becomes the true ruler of halloween town and while jack got all the fame oogie faded into obscurity
I remember playing the console game and having a great time with it. The musical bits in the boss fights were flashy but could be very difficult. Had no idea here was a GBA game, let alone it being a metroidvania. Wish I did now ;w;
I came across an official comic book at Walmart set to when Jack was a kid. It depicted Jack and Oogy as childhood friends what made them enemies was the competition to choose the new Pumpkin King. Oogy cheated and had the help of the retiring Pumpkin King and still lost.
Oogie's revenge was literally my childhood! I played that game so many times just to wander around and I think it was in a tower (not a difficult area) to fight the skeletons because the music was so addicting and I loved his voice lines when he whipped his weapon around ;v;
I played the pumpkin king way back when I was a kid. It was super complicated and hard for my kid brain to follow. I always go back and look at my old GBASP and think about that game. I may have to try it out again now that I am older and have a better grasp on progression.
This may sound weird and out of place but Jack skeleton PlayStation Xbox games gives me a persona vibe it doesn’t really make sense, but that’s just me
22:14 worldwide there’s about 150 countries that have an Independence Day of some sort.. it would be like a bunch of characters from all these nations that enjoy their freedom with some anarchist at the top
So fun fact: Oogie's revenge and Pumpkin King were so interconnected in their releases that when I got the strategy guide for Oogie's revenge, the last 3rd of the guide is just the strategy guide for the GBA game.
Also fun fact: In Oogie's Revenge, its possible to make a sleeping potion and before making it to Finklestein's fight to make the fight easier
And you use the same ingredients Sally used in the film. Deadly night shade, worms worth & frogs breath.
Find it funny how these games came out the same year as Kingdom Hearts 2, especially Oogies Revenge which had Oogie Boogie ressurected and turned into a giant monster
That is crazy to think about. They really went in on the Nightmare Before Christmas content that year.
@KayJulers also, the following year, they re-released the film in 3D
I could have swore the fact resurrected Oogie in KH2 seemed to be incomplete was a reference to this being the “one time too much” resurrection.
I had and absolutely loved oogies revenge. I played it all the time.
I find it so funny that in Kingdom Hearts 1 and Oogie's Revenge, two games with Oogie Boogie as the final boss (or the final boss of the world in KH1's case), he turns into a building in both of them.
The use of the shrunken head as a health item in the first game actually recontextualizes it as a gift in the movie, as the intent behind it becomes oddly wholesome. By giving it as a gift, it becomes a wish of good health to the reciever.
aw thats actually so sweet lmao they really were trying to give nice gifts
@@elizabethbentley2582 but some of the gifts were undoubtedly meant to cause fear (but to jack and the town, "fear" is a good thing as its all they know. hence that creepy worm eating everything and the little floating vampire doll.)
I love that part when Jack said “Jackpot” with a final shot to Oogie.
One of the best moments for sure. It took me awhile to reach that cutscene since Oogie kept saying, "Now I'm motivated," before killing me with Judgement Cut.
I like when jack said "it's Jackin' time" and jacket all over the place
@@KayJulers😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Bury the Twilight deep within@@KayJulers
Then gave backshots to Sally
Interesting fact: In a blurb about Pumpkin King in an issue of GamePro they say that Oogie used to have an August holiday all about bugs. Apparently he "ruined" it somehow before arriving in Halloween Town.
I’m drawing a blank if they mention it in either of the games directly (I think the Pumpkin King does?), but I believe they name drop Bug Day! And also Crawloween lol
Ah that at least explains the rivalry 😅
Might be a reference to an old Disney song called the ugly bug ball which was a specific day, in the song, but that’s just speculation.
Fun fact, There are official prequel and sequel books
The prequel dwells on the Original Pumpkin King being a dick. In it Oogie Boogie and Jack were the best of friends with them always pranking each other and always competing. With both winning and loosing equally.
The Sequel dwells on The Pumpkin Queen, which is based on Sally's POV.
In the Original Nightmare Before Christmas Poem, Jack and Sally have a ton of kids lol
@@KayJulers Crawloween is what Oogie wanted to rename Halloween after he took over, his native holiday was Bug Day before humans stopped celebrating it and it ceased to exist. It makes you wonder if Thanksgiving Town will have the same fate, considering our world is doing a good job at making people abandon Thanksgiving and jump straight to Christmas.
My headcanon was always that a "Turkey king" was the ruler of Thanksgiving, a "Leprechaun King" for St Patrick's and Uncle Sam for Independence but your ideas made me laugh more XD
Why not clover king or maybe golden king?
@@AlexMartinez-gv7hy I suppose Jack being the Pumpkin King would give Clover King more sense... thou I still insist on him being a Leprechaun
@@Don_LUSH just thought of this, Stuffing King for Thanksgiving 😆
According to the sequel book the Thanksgiving Town is Colonial era American town with lots of farms of pumpkins, corn, turkey, and presumably other foods of the fall/holiday. But its not hard to imagine its ruler being called the "Turkey Mayor/King", since Jack is the "Pumpkin King".
@@Don_LUSH Well the book says everyone in St Patricks Town is a leprechaun, so that part is true, at least.
Being a GBA game, it's really well animated, doesn't seem like your average licensed shovelware at all. This looks great on the console
For sure! I think one of the most remarkable, small touches for each of the titles was:
1. Jack gains a new idle animation (and the best one) whenever Zero is with him in The Pumpkin King.
2. I learned very recently that some of the area themes change in Oogie's Revenge whenever you pass a certain obstacle.
I don't think the average shovelware title would go to those efforts, which is why I really respect them.
Right? I found myself rewinding the video multiple times because the movements are so in character and animated so well!
It not bad. It just hard especially for kids that didn't play that type of game offen.
True!
Theres quite a bit of behind the scenes content for the PS2 game available to the public. In Japan there is a special disc for the game that shows Tim Burton meeting up with the Capcom devs and watching them play the game as he comments about it as well as showing him the different designs for Jack. On the disc theres an interview with the director and the artist for the game including a concept art gallery. Inside the two Japanese guide books theres some concept art and hi rez drawings of the characters. I bought these last year and happy to have them. Lastly, a special edition in Japan comes with a soundtrack CD.
I wish that both Capcom and Disney make a remaster of this game 🥲
Only other edition I found is the CD edition with no bonus dvd. Unless you mean the bonus videos are on the main game disc already?
Can you still get the cd anywhere, whether by itself or as an edition? Would love the soundtrack.
The “Pumpkin Puss” (not looking to get flagged) took me so off guard but that’s a new insult added to the collection
Oogie's Revenge has my favourite portrayal of Finkelstein next to the OG film. He's just so happy talking to Jack about his inventions, and he even complimented Jack's Sandy costume that Sally made. Sally even tells Jack to save the Doctor, showing she actually does care about her creator! The game itself does have some stuff I'm not a fan of, but when it comes to the writing, world-building, and characters, it's top-notch!
There IS another "sequel" of Nightmare in the form of a novel called Long Live The Pumpkin Queen. It focuses on Sally, and... it sucks. The author or Disney or whoever had the BRILLIANT idea (sarcasm) of retconning Sally's origins of being Finkelstein's creation/assistant and have her instead be a princess of "Dream Town". They also changed Fink from an ornery but well-meaning and respected member of Halloween Town into a child kidnapper, kidnapping Sally when she was a child and drugging her with a "Forgetting Potion" because he... *looks at notes* ...wanted a creation/daughter but... he... sucked at making things. 🤦♀ The author has a HUGE vendetta against my favourite character and I hate it. 😿
ANYWAY! The reason I bring up this tome of retcons and character assassinations is because they DID try and give new lore for the Holidays worlds, which includes giving Valentine's Town a ruler in the form of a Queen named Ruby, portraying Thankgiving Town as a place where everyone is constantly eating (????????) and Independence Town, where citizens and visitors alike go, I assume, blind and deaf from the constant barrage of fireworks.
Also the Queen of England makes an appearance. And all the Holiday Leaders have a meeting about climate change.
gdi Disney.
Hmmmm I was thinking about giving that novel a try after learning about it, but none of that sounds very good lol.
Yeah, I like they want to explore these characters and world but that book is "meh", Sally don't need a new origin story, still the only official canon is the movie itself (even Henry Selick wants to create a Jack prequel but for Tim Burton the film is perfect as it is)
@@Gameorama91 Yeah, it's extremely disappointing.
@@TheHalloweenSpirit I even pre-ordered the book 'cause I was excited to read a story about Sally, and people were saying the book was gonna delve into her past, which I ASSUMED was gonna be her early life as a creation, and her and Fink's relationship. Silly me, right? 🙄
I just saw this book and was waiting until I had spare change. Thank you for saving me as I don't make a lot and that would have killed me to know I spent my fun money on it
I still think to this day Soul Rubber should've been Jack's default weapon in Kingdom Hearts.
same reaction
I played KH first before this one and it made me thought the same
I kept hearing it as that too and all I could think of forever was that Funk Soul Brother song by Fatboy Slim.
Maybe in the second game because KH 1 came out two years before Oogie's Revenge.
I still have Oogie's Revenge, and I think about it a lot. Other than Kingdom Hearts and Rachet & Clank, this was my favorite game for a long time. And honestly, it still holds up despite its clunk and age
Uncle Sam absolutely is the leader of Independence Day town. Uncle Sam does not necessarily represent American freedom but the representative of Independence as a whole.
My best guess was Paul Revere
Uncle Sam is propaganda
21:53 depend if you consider it canon or not but in the book Long Live The Pumpkin Queen, Jack and Sally meet the ruler of Valentines Day Town and her name is Ruby Valentino, her citizens are hundreds of baby cupids flying around
Also in Independence Day town the book says it’s always night with no stars in the sky and a never ending firework show gonna on 24/7, while in St Patrick’s day Town there’s a miniature village where a bunch of tiny leprechauns live
That's an extremely interesting concept for Independence Day Town, but living there has to be a nightmare unless you just become numb to the sound of fireworks lol.
It was an alright book, with a interesting villain, but I felt like if it had a movie made for it, the movie would have been like 30 minutes, unless they did some added scenes. Also The Valentines Day Town had more citizens then just cupids (cupids start out as "normal babies" and grow wings later), there were people made of chocolate (and maybe candy) and they came in some combination of pink, red, white, and brown (like milk chocolate) but otherwise look like humans in fancy clothes. No one was single in Valentine Town...besides the cupids (for obvious reasons), and the queen (who had a crush on Shakespeare, but didn't know he passed on decades ago on Earth).
It ended in a sequel-hook of tons of doors to other worlds, besides the currently known holiday worlds.
@KayJulers I always saw Independence Day town as those 1950s nuclear family neighborhoods where they have barbecues everyday along with fireworks lmao
Imagine if Saint Patrick's Day town took place in a pub instead.
5:11 no disrespect, I just genuinely find it hilarious that you're giving spoiler warnings for a movie that released over 30 years ago and games that released well over 20 years ago 🤣
I forget if it was in the movie or Kingdom Hearts, but I'm fairly sure they implied a particular bug in his burlap body was the real him, since the last one talked in a high-pitch silly voice. I assume each bug he "ate" was in fact forced to help move the burlap body (or maybe they get mindcontrolled by the Oogie bug?). Or maybe the Oogie bug is his "Brain Bug".
The games for two different systems and being in two different genres reminds me of the Monster House games. The Gameboy advance one (the one I owned) was like an old top down zelda game combined with backtracking to access new areas like a metroidvania (I don’t know the particular genre this would fall under) meanwhile the console version of the game (with the same name as the Gameboy advance game) was a survival horror game. Very interesting to see Nightmare Before Christmas games had a similar difference in genres.
I had no idea that they did this with the Monster House games, but that's pretty neat! It's also quite the coincidence to have another set of games based on a Halloween time movie tackle completely different genres.
I forgot about the Monster House GBA game, but I did have it, and I might still have it somewhere
Monster house for the gamecube was the worst game i have ever played. Im shocked to see other versions were decent
I’m so glad someone’s finally talking about these games! I loved them as a kid
I remember owning both games when they first released and enjoying them quite a bit 😊.
I liked unlocking Jack’s alternate costumes in Oogie’s revenge. I remember getting so lost during the hinterlands portion(didn’t have a guide and didn’t think to look it up). I also loved how they redid some of the songs from the movie to fit what was happening. One part I was not fan of was that you could only upgrade your abilities in the 2nd level, which meant having to replay it if I wanted to upgrade anything.
I would love to see either one get a stream release. Modders could probably have fun with it.
I admittedly got pretty lost on the Hinterlands portion as well. Really cool environment and nice music, but certainly felt like a crazy version of the Lost Woods.
@@KayJulers I did too and even when I looked up a guide it barely helped, least favorite part of the game for me.
I feel like a cool idea would've been if jack gotten different costumes in different worlds like easter costume with bounching eggs or the independence day with fireworks as projectiles
I think it would’ve been a great idea to see the game explore some of the other worlds and implement different costumes like that.
The Nightmare Before Christmas, What We Do In The Shadows, Garfield's Halloween, Trick or Treat, Beetlejuice, The Legend of Sleepy Hallow, and Sleepy Hallow are my traditional Halloween Must Watches.
What about scoobie doo on zombie island ?
What about the corpse Bride?
I absolutely adore the original film, and it's probably the thing that made me appreciate claymation as an artform when I was younger. I recently found out about this game a few days before Halloween because one of my pals on discord brought it up outta nowhere and curiosity got the best out of me, and so far? I've been having such a blast playing through it (as of writing this, I just obtained the Pumpkin King ability.) It's funny how I got this video recommended to me a week afterwards.
Ngl, I'd love to see a modding scene rise for Oogie's Revenge, There's so much potential to expand the combat, add custom movesets to the game, make visual changes, give some of the mechanics some spit and polish
I'd think what I'd like to see out of modding this game the most is fixing my main issue with the game by replacing the regular fight theme with literally anything but "This Is Halloween." (or at least an instrumental) and lowering Jack's voiceline frequency. Because as much as I dont mind it, the last thing I would want is Jack yelling out "Soul Robber!" into my ringing ears like it's that one scene from Akira
I was so obsessed with Nightmare back when I was in junior high, was my favorite movie for years. So, of course, I had Oogie's Revenge preordered and got it the day it came out. I have pretty fond memories of the game, would enjoy a chance to play it again.
It's really neat how Oogie's Revenge has an upbeat rendition of Sally's Song. But what if the music department took a page from the Macross/Robotech Anime and had Sally singing in the background for a Boss fight with that same upbeat melody?
I hope you've recovered from your sickness! I have been sick aswell, and its been effecting me a lot lol
I appreciated this video as background noise for drawing, I knew there were tnbc games, but I didn't know the history or amount, so it was engaging and fun to learn more about them! earned a sub :>
Yes, I’ve been feeling a lot better! Thank you! I’m sorry to hear you’ve gotten hit by illness as well, but I hope you feel better soon! I also hope that it was a fruitful drawing session.
22:22 You know, the US is not the only country that celebrates independence day, maybe that door is about all countries who had to get their independence
Then that makes it harder to figure out the leader
St. Patrick's Day town is just a tavern with gold 4-leaf clover patterns carved into the wooden walls, with nice green corduroy upholstery, studded with gold. The drinks are served in green mugs with gold rims or glasses with 4-leaf clovers painted on them, and the coasters look like big gold coins. The barkeeper is just a short ginger man with an Irish accent and slightly pointed ears, and he's also the ruler of the town with his big bucked hat being like his crown. His name is Seán, Seán Leprechaun. St. Patrick's is just the name of the tavern, and has a portrait of the human guy St. Patrick somewhere on the walls.
It's perfection.
Independence Day Town is just some random town in the USA stuck in this Groundhog Day time loop of the 4th of July, restarting the day after the final firework goes off in the night sky. Some Eagle furry decked out in stars and stripes is president of that town.
Man it's actually crazy to unpack the forgotten memories i have from the ps2 version of oogie's revenge! If not for this video i may have never remembered playing that game, as stuff like kingdom hearts had my interest moreso at that time. Great video and thanks for covering the game!
I think Oogie's Revenge is truly the one to point a finger at when questioning my obsession with this universe. Not being able to beat Cerberus on DMC 3 as a kid, I guess this ended up being my alternative. I actually played the game before ever seeing the movie, so I usually had to get my mom to do the corpse kid quiz for me.
Special fact too is that the Thespian Jack costume in Oogie's Revenge would also have a figure doll released in SDCC 2008 as Othello Jack. The Thespian outfit could just refer to theater in general, but it's interesting the people who were manufacturing the doll pick this specific Shakespearean play. Though thinking Jack as Othello and Oogie as Iago, it probably fits.
I remember having fun with that costume. :D
Wow never realised Jack had such an arsenal and moveset,
Coming to smash when?
This is the best review of Oogies Revenge I’ve ever seen in my 6 years Speedrunning Oogies Revenge. Thank you
there's an Oogie's Revenge speedrunning community?!
I remember loving the combat in Oogie’s Revenge. I’d dodge around the arena like I was dancing and hit strategic attacks, usually in rhythm to the music playing. Man, I played the heck out of this game!
It really did feel like a dance now that I think of it.
I never forgot this game. I remember everytime we would go to Walmart, i would beg my dad to buy this for me, and his excuse was it was demonic, but he finally did lol. I never beat the final boss because it was too hard for me at the time.
Oogie's Revenge has one of the most broken grab mechanics in the game, and I'm not even talking about its basic grab. If you charge up (either via holding down the attack button, or taunting an enemy for an instant charge), and grab while mashing the grab button, you will start turning into an absolute tornado of death. It lasts as long as the Soul Robber can hold out (indicated by its color), but can be extended through the blue soul items. There's a secret mission in Dr. Finklesteins Lab where there are 100 enemies in a small room. If you go in there with max Blue Souls in your pocket, you're going to have a GOOOOOOOOD time.
I thought that was an intended thing and not some kind of glitch, I always loved going in there and doing that, it felt cool.
@@ThePhantomSafetyPin Never said it was a glitch. I did say it was one of the most broken mechanics in the game, though. Broken, as in, it can trivialize parts of the game if done correctly and consistently due to how powerful it is.
I love Oogie’s Revenge! It was such a stupidly cool game. The Soul Rubber was a cool mechanic and the transformation were cool and being able to explore Halloween town was awesome. Plus the boss battles were something else.
I had never heard of these games before.
Love this overview!
Thanks so much!
These games are sorely underrated and one of the preferred ways I'd see a prequel and sequel. They need more love
3:30 that is one insane box cover for the time it came out 😮
I never see people play or talk about the games online. And seeing someone talk about them makes me happy.
You know, I really enjoyed the environments of oogie's revenge. Especially seeing the residential area of halloween town and the pumpkin patch as well, it really helped fill out the world a bit more. I also really just like the details in the residential area. Especially the mayor's house, given how insane it looks and you can kind of see how the hell and how the Halloween Town residents with their lives or their clothes hanging up between buildings and what not the sewers and the vampire brothers just very interesting.
I’m here from the future to let you know that Disney Acknowledged both of these games when they released both the Pumpkin King Jack skin and Sally skin for Halloween.
thanks for the trip down memory lane; life's been strange lately, & to see some childhood games has been a treat; excellent video !
I got both of these games from my daughter when she was little, And we had so much fun beating both of these. Glad to hear you give Kingdom Hearts a nod though because I think that's the best representation done in video game
6:35 seeing this cutscene in this goofy flash game is funny as hell especially with thw quality of the cutscene and the screen IMMEDIATELY after
Thank you for confirming that I was in fact not having a fever dream playing an Xbox Nightmare Before Christmas game when I was a little kid.
It's Crazy to see how much you've grown since college. Your channel is doing great and your videos keep getting better. Good Job!
This is an amazing video!! Everything is thoroughly explored, the video is well built, and you kept my attention!! 9/10
As a kid, I though oogie’s revenge went so hard. The clip of buying upgrades just gave me a boost of Serotonin from the nostalgia. That games EATS
Unlocking infinite Pumpkin King mode and hearing "I AM the Pumpkin King! MUAHAHAHAHA!" was awesome.
I was finally just recently able to play oogies revenge. You can actually emulate it my friend and I found out which was super exciting. It’s a game I played as a kid but never beat and had been wanting to revisit it for years so this video couldn’t have come at a more perfect time. I think anyone who is a big fan of the movie like myself and enjoys action adventure style games should defiantly play this game. These type of games don’t really exist anymore and you can tell Capcom defiantly put some love into it.
this video has just reminded me of a Disney short stories book my mother got me when i was little.
in one of them, it’s all about how jack and father christmas have become good friends after the events of the movie. i think the plot was jack trying to find the perfect christmas present for father christmas but i’m not entirely sure. the story also makes a reference to the other towns and their leaders but again not sure what is said about them.
i’ve been trying to track down the book in our attic for a long time but i cannot find it, which is infuriating since i want to reread the story.
They really missed the chance to call the Santa Jack skin "Sandy Claws" after how he misspronounced Santa's name
I really enjoyed watching let's plays of Oogie Boogie's Revenge growing up. It was always fun to watch around Halloween time. It was nice to see both games covered
Just restarted Oogie's Revenge to play with the kids since they're now obsessed with the film.
Still so wild that to finish off Oogie, Jack put on a frickin' COWBOY hat and broke down the sickest dance moves to break Oogie's spirit and leave only a pile of bugs
Oogie's revenge finishes the story of Nightmare before Christmas... which makes it nt need a sequel like Disney wants regardless of Tim saying it's not necessary
The leader of Independence Day Town is obviously the ghost of Benjamin Franklin.
lol Disney being afraid of damaging their brand. Ah, that was a different era.
3:36 cool box art though :)
I remember the PS2 game very well. My brother made it a tradition to play it every year on halloween until the ps2 broke. But whenever I play Kingdom Hearts and see Jack, I instantly remember that game. something that doesn't happen when I watch the movie. Odd.
I’ve actually seen a few people note how they found out about the movie through outside material like Kingdom Hearts, which is really interesting to see!
Happy Halloween!
I just recently discovered you from Zero Escape and Xenoblade and now you are talking about a GBA game from my childhood!
Happily excited for more!
Happy Halloween! Thanks for checking out those videos! Glad to have ya!
The Zero Escape series games are fun
Thank you so much for creating and sharing the story! I really appreciated it :) I've made a LEGO 'The Night Before Christmas' song, so it's fun to learn more about the story.
Ah yes, "Going to sleep before Christmas" and "Waking up scared on Christmas morning". Eternal classics.
mr funny guy being funny ahh:
Am I new to this channel? Your coverage ans video was exceptional. I dont know anything about these games but i was entertained the whole time.
Man this brings me back to the good old days of me and my friends sitting around eating pizza on weekends just playing game after game of Bonebreaker until the sun came up
I'm blown away at how much effort was put into The Pumpkin King. I had no idea that game existed until this video but I first expected it to be like any other generic licensed kids game. The attention to detail, sprite work and passion put into it is very impressive, it seems like a pretty cool game. I can imagine the devs were really passionate about their work
The fact that the stop motion in this movie (which came out in 1993, mind you!!) looks better than most modern CGI really shows how much care and love was put into this movie. This is absolutely my favorite movie ever made
I've actually never seen Nightmare before Christmas until last Friday. My only experience with it was Kingdom hearts 1 and 2. So I thought there were at least 2 movies of it.
I loved the ps2 game and i remember the time i tried to 100% the game. I dont know if it was just me but the chapter where you had to capture the 4 vampires and put them back in the coffins really drove me crazy. The time limit to get an S rank was so obnoxious. But at the end walking around as jack dressed up as the phantom of the opera, which you only got by getting an S rank in every chapter and finnishing the 2 bonus chapters, was absolutely worth it.
actually fantastic video for such a small channel, subbed
Rest in peace Ken Page 😞
21:58 we actually get to meet the leaders of St Patrick’s day town, Valentine’s Day town and maybe even thanksgiving town (but I can’t remember for sure) in ‘Long Live the Pumpkin Queen’
"GEORGE W BUSH?!" had me dying 😂
RW:@1:02 Awesome stuff there man 🎃👍
That hot topic comment killed me and i even knew it was coming 🤣
Got to see the 30th anniversary showing in theaters, it was my brothers first time ever seeing the movie, what an amazing experience!!
Same! Just saw it yesterday. Hope it'll be back soon, it was incredible experiencing it in 3D in the theatres.
@@RetroDeathReviews666 You got to see it in 3D? Very cool!!
It's funny how I learned of this movie from Kingdom Hearts, and it was my favorite world to visit, I actually thought it was an original world not from Disney. I loved the Ps2 game.
22:45 My guess would have been Uncle Sam.
I can't really consider the Pumpkin Queen book that's by a separate author to be canon especially considering how things ended between Tim Burton and Disney, on top of it being Burton's legal team that were the ones that made comments and gave the rights with Burton making no comments (as of yet I have found no direct quote from him instead being through legal team) Just how long its been alone shows that he has no real attachment to the Pumpkin Queen making it not canon.
Good or not it's only ever going to be a fanfic to me and if Disney wants to do their usual thing now and remake their world for "modern audiences" I'm sure that won't matter to them.
16:15 isn’t this game rated E10+?
NBC is one of my favorites of all time. I was born in 93' and watched this movie so many times as a kid that the vhs tape came apart in our vcr. Now all three of my kids love it. My youngest just watched it for the first time last week. Such a fantastic movie.
That's awesome that you grew up on it and your kids are following the tradition! I'm a '95 kid and would always watch the film growing up, too.
Independence Day Town is run by Uncle Sam. That one was easy. Thanksgiving Town however is a tough one. Nobody thinks of Christopher Columbus on that day, so it cant be him. Everyone just thinks of food and the family together. So I'd have to agree with making it be run by a giant turkey however that also makes no sense because the main feast on Thanksgiving is turkeys. So the giant turkey would be cool with having his brethren eaten and i dont think he would like that. So with more time to think about it, Thanksgiving Town would make more sense being run by 2 equally matched bosses. A powerful hulking unnamed Pilgrim leader (real Bible thumper kind) dressed as a pilgrim of course and a hulking unnamed Indian Chief dressed in full Indian ceremony attire. Yes, definitely. I am liking that idea more and more now. Two powerful best friends trying to defend against The Pumpkin King which themewise fits well with Thanksgiving as well since pumpkins are associated with Thanksgiving too.
Yeah thats my final answer. 🤠👍
Edit: And yes although nobody thinks of Christopher Columbus specifically, all kids do remember the Pilgrims and the Indians coming together for the feast.
I am so glad this video essay came into my recommended
What did he say 16:12
This is the first video I've seen from you, editing is on point 29:30
Independence Day Town and Thanksgiving Town shouldn't be in there imo, they're both US only holidays, and five main holidays would have been enough, especially since we only see two of them anyways (so far) but on top of that, if they HAD to have seven, what about new years? April fools day? You could probably even do something with mother's Day ffs. Or like, maybe an Equinox town? You know, April fools day really could be cool. I just don't wanna go to NNN town
I remember playing these 2 games growing up. Unfortunately, I never beat either of them. The PS2 one, I actually got stuck in some chapter and couldn't figure out how to pass it, and we didn't really have YT playthroughs way back then, sooo yeah. I remember fighting that spider, bit idk if that was the chapter I got stuck on.
Fun fact: the pumpkin king gba game is getting its own visual novel retelling the Events with a unique spin by having oogie and jack be friends competeting in a friendly competition to get the position of the pumpkin king while the now retired pumpkin king wanting to manipulate his succsessor so he can rule Halloween town beyond his retirement by having his sucsessor which ends up to be jack to do his dirty work but jack finds out about the pumpkin king manipulating him and he defeats him and becomes the true ruler of halloween town and while jack got all the fame oogie faded into obscurity
where can i read it?
@Dxstino i dunno
I remember playing the console game and having a great time with it. The musical bits in the boss fights were flashy but could be very difficult. Had no idea here was a GBA game, let alone it being a metroidvania. Wish I did now ;w;
I'd say it's still worth checking out if you liked Oogie's Revenge, especially since you can pump it out in a short time!
I've decided that the Thanksgiving town is ruled over by the giant turkey from Scooby-Doo and The Witch's Ghost....
Change my mind!!
I can get behind this headcanon.
Oogie's Revenge lives in my head rent free for the boss music alone
I came across an official comic book at Walmart set to when Jack was a kid. It depicted Jack and Oogy as childhood friends what made them enemies was the competition to choose the new Pumpkin King. Oogy cheated and had the help of the retiring Pumpkin King and still lost.
Love your sense of humor! Great video :)
Independence Day is the 4th of July, and the leader would be Uncle Sam.
I would assume a Leprechaun would be in charge of St Patrick’s Day
I have Oogies Revenge for the og xbox and it's a great game for it's time
Oogie's revenge was literally my childhood! I played that game so many times just to wander around and I think it was in a tower (not a difficult area) to fight the skeletons because the music was so addicting and I loved his voice lines when he whipped his weapon around ;v;
I played the pumpkin king way back when I was a kid. It was super complicated and hard for my kid brain to follow. I always go back and look at my old GBASP and think about that game. I may have to try it out again now that I am older and have a better grasp on progression.
The novel never happened. The 2 games are canon. The is the absolute truth and you can't sway me.
This may sound weird and out of place but Jack skeleton PlayStation Xbox games gives me a persona vibe it doesn’t really make sense, but that’s just me
22:14 worldwide there’s about 150 countries that have an Independence Day of some sort.. it would be like a bunch of characters from all these nations that enjoy their freedom with some anarchist at the top