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Honestly, I like how this graphic novel completely recontextualises why Oogie and Jack hate each other. Instead of it just being conflicting philosophies about how to do Halloween it’s actually a broken bond between friends. Which makes the scene of Oogie’s death at the hands of Jack that much sadder.😢
Death probably was the pumpkin king before it was even a thing. It's far older than Halloween itself after all, so Edgar, being a pumpkin, was probably the first proper pumpkin king after Death decided to stop ruling the realm once Halloween became Halloween.
Going off what I have read the origin of Halloween is I would believe that Death would be a founding member of Halloween town and had the leadership role that became the pumpkin king. I think the being who sing “I am the “who” when you call, “Who’s there?” and the other one sings “I am the wind blowing through your hair.” Are probably pretty old too. By the way I feel like someone might argue I will say that obvious difference of voices between the two lines after each other.
wouldn't it make more sense for the first King of Halloween after Death to have a turnip head since before America was discovered, Turnips were used? Edgar can't possible be the very first Pumpkin King going by that logic.
@@oucyan Well the holiday was about protecting from, confusing/hiding from, or appeasing wandering ghosts and stuff even during the turnips if I remember correctly. So until probably like less than 5 hundred years ago it was like what I said so the role of pumpkin king was probably a more recent change of title of a position of the Grim reaper. It is entirely possible that the more scary and threatening Halloween idea came from the time that Grim had the leadership role.
I've actually figured the people of Halloween Town age (Save for the Vampire Bros.) from the Oogie's Revenge game. If you click on the guillotine in the square, you get a bit of text from Jack saying that he had a guillotine "When he was a boy." And in the Vampire Bros. house, if you read the book in the room where you put the bats away, it mentions that they have served Hallwoeen Town by aiding "the Sovregin of Screams." AKA, the Pumpkin King. And I like to think that each Pumpkin King has a unique power thanks to this game and the movie. While Edger could control the wind, Jack's element is FIRE. He did not burn alive at the beginning of the movie and in his Pumpkin King form in Oogie's Revenge, he is able to breathe fire like a fire-eater. Most likely, whenever the Pumpking Crown is passed down, the new Pumpkin King's element is awakened and they have particular mastery over that element. But that's my theory.
during the beginning song in the movie there is a character that says I am the who when you call who's there I had always assumed that was the wind everywhere and anywhere all at once
For some reason I feel like the Pumpkin King was also under the control of insects, specifically the spider. Maybe his tenure was coming to an end because the bugs were causing him to rot as evidenced by his head. He needs Oogie to be the next vessel because Burlap sacks don't rot like pumpkins do. He lays his body to rest so nonchalantly because even though it seems like he failed, he succeeded in transferring himself/his evil essence into Oogie.
9:44 I think it's definitely the bugs /parasites because as we can see nobody else is affected by this, the green bugs are the parasite and are the true puppet Master
There seems to be a general theme of characters from halloween town not being inherently evil, but being caused to become evil indirectly or causing evil themselves accidentally. For instance, in the original movie Jack himself ends up becoming a villain simply from the joy of discovering something new and wanting to experience it for himself, and is eventually regretful when he realizes what he's done. If we consider this story to be canon to the original film, it paints a picture of evil being something not native to halloween town and its residents, but rather something consequential in nature. Even this Edgar fellow seems to be a corrupted soul victim to the same curse he's passing onto Oogie.
You might be on to somethin. Remember in the song “Life’s no fun without a good scare! That’s our job, but we’re not mean! In our town of Halloween!” They are scary to be mean, they’re scary because they wanna have fun. Halloweentown seems to celebrate just to have fun. At its core they don’t want to be mean or hurt others but just have a good time
That's easily 100% true, it would make sense because Halloween (or rather, Samhain) itself isn't to do with evil anything - it's meant to be a time of mischief, celebration, and spooky vibes because it was always a holiday about strange spirits crossing into our realm to do mischief. Not necessarily evil, but to bring about mischief. Alternately, it's the time when veil between worlds are thin, and when the spirits of those departed return to visit and watch over us (see Day of the Dead and All Souls' Night as examples of this idea). In all cases that's... well, spooky, but not really evil. Though some original Samhain legends DID include more malicious spirits and beings that could cause misfortune being able to be scared away, hence the concept of dressing in costumes to fool them and jack-o-lanterns to scare them away. Of course "that's [their] job but [they're] not mean", Halloween is about fun surprises and spookiness, as well as a time to celebrate the turning of seasons and the magic of the unknown and macabre. Nobody in Halloweentown is inherently evil at all, beecause Halloween doesn't celebrate evil.
I believe there's something that talked about an ancient Bug holiday as well. Perhaps it was an escaped evil glow bug that ventured away and into Halloween Town that finally introduced Evil to it by parasyting an original Pumpkin King.
Maybe the reson why Jack has been alive and has been the pumpkin king for so long is because he's not a pumpkin, and is a skeleton. Because, Skeletons don't actually wither away even after death. They can be broken and crushed but unless they are burned by fire than they can't really disappear (Aka turn to ashes by cremation) which is why he is has been the king for so long. It would make since if the past pumpkin kings have been actual pumpkins like Edgur, but pumpkins slowly rot away and become moldy and squishy after a long while of being laid out. Which, would mean that they are all basically gonna die at some point. Unlike Jack, who is, again, literally a skeleton.
Also, like how someone mentioned at the comments, Jack is overall much more flexible with Halloween, he's not really bound to tradition, and can make Halloween follow whatever path he feels like doing that year, whether that be something more classic, do a full 180 on the holiday, or something in between, which may make his staying power all the stronger, because he can easily adapt to the times and always can come up with an answer to keep the holiday relevant, unlike the previous king
I think Jack does have supernatural powers; immediately after he says he's a "master of fright" he adds "and a demon of light", which is highly suggestive. Then, immediately after THAT, he says, "and I'll scare you right out of your pants" while waving his hands down at the pumpkin patch, causing all the jack-o-lanterns to open up and moan, and the ghosts inside to fly out. Perhaps his "and they call him... Sandy... Claws!" moment at the town hall was not the Mayor sliding a red filter over the spotlight, but Jack exerting his control as a "demon of light" to alter the environment... to make it more spooky! And that could very well be the reason we never see Jack flexing his powers as the Pumpkin King: those powers are to scare people, and, for most of the movie, he neither needs to nor want to. Heck, the whole point of the movie is that he's tired! He doesn't like his job anymore, he's burnt out! The only time in the movie where we would expect to see him use his powers is during the confrontation with Oogie Boogie, and we DO see a number of tricks, though most of them are less mystical and more feats of strength and agility. Thing is, during that fight, Jack utterly DOMINATES Oogie; nothing Oogie throws at him causes Jack any trouble. Everything is easily avoided or dealt with, with only a second or two on Jack's part to observe and plan. Bear in mind, a "master of fright and a demon of light" doesn't NEED cheap tricks or cheats to win, and Jack doesn't use any, nor does he at any point have his back against the wall in such a way where it seems like he'd even need to consider it. I do think Jack, as the Pumpkin King, has powers... but I think he's the sort to use them responsibly. The only time he (potentially) doesn't is when he's lamenting that even powers can't bring him fulfillment.
10:57 Funntidbit of information here: since we're talking about the inconsistencies of the story of Halloween Towns portrayle in different mediums. In the Kingdom Hearts series Jack is a powerful Mage. He falls under the Final Fantasy jobclass Black Mage: nothing but offensive magic. He can call down lightning, a bolt coming down every time he swings his fingers downward, as if dragging the bolt from the sky. He can summon a frozen jagged snowflake that floats through the air and follows enemies, freezing and stabbing them as it floats about. He can summon 3 massive flaming pumpkins that surround his body then dash foward, engulfing enemies in his flames as he rams into them. And he can summon spheres of solid gravity above enemies which slowly lower towards thebground, crushing enemies into the ground.
Jack isn't just the Pumpkin King, he's the king of everything Halloween! He only had one true movie but his legacy stayed true, he has lasted unlike any other character in history.
I personally like to head cannon that both “The Pumpkin King” and “Battle for The Pumpkin King” exist at the same time in the sense that one version is the story that Jack remembers and the other is the way Oogie would tell it.
So, what if the beings in the holiday worlds are powered by belief? Edgar doesn't like that Halloween Town isn't fear based, but that's because in the mortal world, Halloween was becoming more and more a family friendly, less scary holiday. If we put TNBC in "present day", it would take place in the 90's-ish (the scenes in the mortal world look more like the 50's, but whatever). And by the 90's Halloween was just starting to get back its scarier side. So, at the time of this particular prequel, Halloween has become a "kids" holiday. Less scary, more fun. Edgar is losing his power because of this (hence the withered and rotted appearance). He wants to change this back to fear to hold onto his power. This would also explain why Santa has more magic than others. Christmas doesn't change much. It's very much the same as it was 30, 50, 80, almost a hundred years ago. You'd have to go back a while to see a very different Christmas. So, Santa doesn't change, or get replaced. Whereas Halloween goes through plenty of peaks and valleys. Horror, to fun, whimsy to macabre. Death and demons, to princesses and superheroes. Jack is more the current free spirit of Halloween. Edgar was the former cold and creepy spirit.
So it would look like the Halloweentown in the Disney channel original movie? What an interesting coincidence that you came to the same conclusion that I did.
6:13 "i am the who when you call whos there" "and i am the wind blowing through your hair" maybe edgar is friends with the wind blowing through your hair?
Even though its not canon to the story of the film universe, the Kingdom Hearts series depicts jack as a master of Magic with elemental spells like Bolts of sorrow, Icy terror and Blazing Fury.
I actually never thought this, and still don't. Nightmare town is full of death and decay, which only come from life. Certain characters like the skeletons probably wouldn't age, but they would have a death day, and Jack is portrayed different from the other skeletons. Christmas town is actually portrayed as very similar to the real world, it even has a cemetery of its own, leading me to think Santa is the only potentially immortal character, but if the pumpkin King is replaced periodically I would think he was too. The very theme of the movie is "growing tired of the same old thing". So I disagree. I don't really see anything to suggest the towns are ageless. After all, humanity isn't ageless and we invented the holidays.
But, certain events do still occur before other ones tho don’t they? I mean, regardless of how ageless one might b past & future still exist for them do they not?
Edar must represents Samhain especially with the way he was able to use magic. So he was just the older version of what holloween once was. Jack must represent a new era of holloween.
Makes sense that the Holiday Towns evolve with the holidays. But do the holidays in the human world change because of events in the town, or do events in the towns reflect the changes in the holiday?
My theory is that each Pumpkin King is granted mastery over one of the four elements; Edgar was wind, Jack is fire and a past Pumpkin King (possibly Edgar's successor) was Earth. This is because of the lines in This is Halloween that say "I am the hoo when you call 'who's there? I am the wind blowing through your hair". Edgar is the wind blowing through your hair and the "hoo when you call who's there" is likely the Pumpkin King before Edgar who could use his Earth powers to control all the night dwelling creatures, owls in particular. Similarly I think the reason why jack o' lanterns are associated with ghosts in Halloween Town is because the dust of the previous Pumpkin King is mixed with soil and used to grow a pumpkin which is then turned into a jack o' lantern which houses the spirit of the previous Pumpkin King.
@@Cheesemeister27 maybe but I feel like that part of the song was evoking the feeling of walking alone in the woods at night and having the hoo of an owl reply to your call of "who's there?" when you hear a noise.
On the note of jack's lack of magic: While the song Jack's Lament plays, he waves hands to pumpkings and they open up, light up and howl. So... he might have some magic, besides nigh industribility.
He clearly can control fire to some degree, which makes sense - bones are all that is left after cremation of a body, and even then they must be pounded into fragments. Jack is flexible, nimble, can reassemble himself when he loses limbs and even his head, has control over fear tactics itself as King of Halloween, and can somewhat control fire. Notable in that a fire can both warm... and destroy. Jack is shown to do both, his passion is fiery and intense when he finds something he is intrigued by, that spark in him burns like a flame that can't go out. Jack is a warm, caring, friendly person but he's also, in the pursuit of something bigger than him, accidentally destructive, like a wildfire. He's a passionate charismatic warm leader with a creative spark that people rally around like a bonfire, which makes him a natural leader. This perfectly suits him. Edgar may have been the bone-chilling fear and coldness of Halloween, but Jack Skellington is the warmth, coziness, and frightening power of Halloween. Edgar is the wind blowing through your hair that whispers fearful things and freezes you to the core, but Jack is the bonfire you enjoy candy around while telling scary stories in the dark on a fall night. Both have the capability to cause fear, both are powerful, and both are emblematic of Halloween in different ways.
Wait so Edgar was this evil but when Oogie lost he just laid down and gave up, sounding kind of relieved for a break?! Thats such a weird idea for an addition to the story of NBC! I always thought that the Pumpkin King title was more about the respect for your role in the holiday this town exists for, but now its an inherited title and this scarecrow has to have a successor but would have in theory been able to stick around and puppeteer them after retiring, yet when that option was taken he just goes to sleep forever?! What was forcing him to step down at all? Not to mention its just kind of weird that Jack barely had a part to play in the story, does he even know what his predecessor did to his friend by the end?! Like, thats weird to think about, right? Jack just kind of won this apparently powerful role as a kid bc if some silly competitions, and even all the years later that the film takes place he has no idea what Edgar was acrually like, why Oogie got corrupted, none of it!
I think it's supposed to imply that he dies? Or at least doesn't have the energy to keep physically moving so that lamentation is meant to be his last words? I also believe this is confusing most likely due to age demographic/ratings.
Well to be fair Jack was never told anything, he was over there being a good boy meanwhile the man who eventually became his successor was over there manipulating his best friend into thinking Jack betrayed him, and the only real interaction Jack and Edgar have after Jack wins is Edgar essentially congratulating Jack and then Edgar goes off to die and then Oogie just never bothered to tell Jack what Edgar and him were doing behind the scenes
If the competition was blessed by magic or cursed by evil, then the winner would be binding. Edgar made the competition, so them being kinda dumb was him trying to give Oogie an advantage. I think Edgar wasn't really trying to rest in the end, I think he had no choice but to lay down with the other pumpkins of past Kings and fade away
Because he passed his bugs on and into a successor aka Oogie Boogie when he gave them the cup full of bugs; aka his soul/spirit. Even if his intended successor failed to win, he still passed on his soul/spirit aka the bugs.
I think that when they reach adulthood, the age reeeeaaally slowly. I mean in Sally book, we know she was a lil girl once and we asume the bogie kids died when they were kids (but because of their names ) I think they were assesinated, because abusive or poor parents, and its easier to end a baby that a kid who will fight back
Wasn't the wind in HalloweenTown alive? Or is it just whispering the whole time? Also, I thought Oogie Boogie is the mass of insects/snakes in the sack, but this prequel makes it appear he IS the sack. Situation like with Sinistea and Polteageist.
If i saw this as a fanfiction id just see it as very self indulgent fun for someone who really really liked Oogie in the film but also had it in their head that they cant like evil characters so they have to make up a way that its not his fault that he is the way he is in spite of how that pretry much ruins the actual character But nope, its official, or, as official as it can get when the people making the decisions for the franchise have nothing to do with the people behind the original film or poem 😅
There is the implication that the "Oogie" we know is a husk puppeted by the same bugs that controlled Edgar. In that sense, the character didn't change so much as the vessel.
Oogie isn't ruined, only given context. The bugs are cursed and he's lost his soul. In this world evil is a consequence, not a character trait. Oogie was innocent as any other denizen of Halloweentown. His apparent evil was the consequence of corruption.
I'm glad the video games are taken seriously as official lore to this series and aren't just treated as tie-in merchandise, I really enjoyed Oogie's Revenge as it actually played into the musical side of the movie by making the boss battles involve both combat and rhythm QTEs, and actually expanded the lore of the holidays to include the concept of the Seven Holidays King - a title where a single person is in control of all seven major festive events - which, of course, Oogie plans to take for himself. It's not often you find multiple media formats to be all canon to a story's timeline as opposed to just sticking to one and treating everything else as a spin-off or non-canon event, but it's something I can really appreciate about TNBC.
I think oogie was going to do that to lock shock and barrel if you remember their song. He feeds them snake and spider stew like he was fed if I remember correctly.
Fitting in that those are venomous creatures. Oogie literally POISONS them to do evil. Lock Shock and Barrel are not by nature bad kids, they're just mischievous and working for Oogie because he's literally controlling them with poison.
I think Edgar's real motives were to pass down his power and way of thinking to the next generation so they could sow discord in his place. Boogie becoming the pumpkin king would have just been a bonus.
6:35 i’m not sure you played the games, but in the pumpkin king, the video game, Jack has the power of wind in that game in Oogies revenge, Jack had the ability to transform into a scarecrow and use fire abilities and transform into his Santa Claus, like form, and use ice powers so Jack does have powers. It just said he doesn’t use them that much in the film Jack apparently can stretch his skin skeleton skin, whatever so Jack has some probably shake shifting abilities, and since his dog zero is a ghost, Jack also has the ability to command the dead I think all pumpkin king has a lot of powers, but Jack doesn’t use them that much
This book is sort of based on the gba game released in 2005. In the game, oogie boogie is jealous that Jack is scarier than him, so he infests Halloween town with bugs and turns them into crawloween. Jack wins, orders oogie to stay in his lair forever and rescues Sally in canonically their first meeting.
The addition of Edgar to the world and setting was very interesting I found. Everyone being kids and Jack and Oogie being childhood friends feels kinda lame though. I always liked how Oogie came from a now dead Holiday realm revolving around bugs, snakes, and other creatures. He was like a link to a far older world and culture than modern day’s holidays.
I saw this show live at the Hollywood Bowl last night. Danny Elfman is one hell of a drug. He was so hyper and energized and in-character. And then he treated us to not one but TWO Oingo Boingo songs, adding “No One Lives Forever” as a special treat for the full moon weekend. I wish my phone wasn’t nearly dead so I could record it but I needed to save it as my Greyhound ticket home and to call my aunt to tell her when to pick me up.
I think the reason Edgar has magic is a product of his time. Magic was believed in back then and the more recent Jack Skellington with modern houses you have mad science as the culprit of horrors.
Unless Tim wrote it &/or gave it his blessing I don't want to count it as canon.I loved your video and pacing!Watched it for its 30th anniversary in theaters at Universal Thursday.I never noticed there was a GateKeeper Character in Halloween town until the big screen. (;
the problem with that is Tim sold it, so now what ever bob says is canon is canon, tim doesn't have a say anymore because he sold it to the mouse with the rest of his soul.
Makes sense that people in Halloween Town grow and get old and so forth...we see families in Halloween Town, and we see kids too, and the fact that Jack and Sally can have kids is very telling... I always considered Halloween Town like Christmas Town, just like how every elf in that town has a life of their own, some with families and kids, well...Halloween Town is the same with its citizens, just, you know...with monsters, just as we never ask if elves in Christmas Town are dead or how they can have families...we shouldn't make those questions in Halloween Town...as I think is clear people in Halloween Town aren't actual death people...and I always think of Corpse Bride as a reference, were in her Death Town, we see skeletons, heads that talk, and decaying bodies, yet all look very "normal", you know? There are dead people, but we don't see witches, vampires, werewolves, or any monsters...at very best, the only weird thing in the world of Emily are the talking bugs (funny enought, in Halloween Town bugs don't talk, unless we count Oogie)... I have always wondered, if the Holiday towns are the representation of what the humans cherish, love, and think about the Holiday...Saint Valentine? Cupid, roses love hearts, sweets, candies, silly poems, Halloween, ghouls, monsters, pumpkins, tricks, pranks and frights, Chritsmas, snow, sweets, presents, ginger houses, Christmas trees, elves, raindeers, Santa and his wife (I think those two and the raindeers are the only real immortals out there), etc, you know what I mean...so may look weird and all, but are just that, reflections of how the humans fell and think of those holidays, therefor why is important for the Towns to keep their Hollyday alive and consistent and to them to not be forgotten...or would probably mean the end and destruction of their world...)
Based on the video games, I think we can assume Jack's Halloween Magic element is Fire. Edgar might have control over wind, but Jack is impervious to fire in the movie, using a torch to immolate himself for show, he can launch himself as a fire ball in the GBA game, and he can both breath fire and explode fire in Oogie's Revenge.
"if a demon hands you a cup and you drink from it are you at fault?" there are 2 actions here, the demon hands you a cup, not your fault that is the demons actions, if you drink from it that is your action, you can choose not to drink, so yes it is indeed your fault
I’m pretty sure he can control pumpkin patches to do his bidding. He also may have the ability to use grave yards as a direct access to Halloweentown(that could just be a thing where all things spooky lead to Halloweentown).
Now I kinda wanna see a sequel story where Oogie gets redeemed and Edgar attempts to retake control. That line of "for now I can rest" seems to imply he doesn't plan on staying down forever.
@@tanandalynch9441 they already brought him back once before for the game Oogie's Revenge. He's a living pillow case full of bugs living in a town with a skeleton, zombies, and a living patchwork doll. it wouldn't be hard to bring him back.
@@tanandalynch9441 just because one bug was crushed doesn't mean anything. There were hundreds of bugs in him. We don't know for sure if that one bug meant anything in the grand scheme of things.
I dont know who else said to make a video about the manga preqel but i got so excited when i saw this recommended to me. I love your nightmare before christmas videos.
It would be fitting that the old pumpkin king would be darker and more evil considering the origin of modern Halloween was much darker. The king changes as the culture around the holiday changes perhaps? And if the holiday where to ever die out, what would become of the denizens of a dead holiday town? That could be an interesting plot actually, the denizens of a long forgotten holiday try coming back by trying to take over Halloween town.
one of the first things in the movie's intro that you see is wind manipulating the door open, blowing a sign so the pumpkin headed scarecrow points towards the town, and jostling some ghosts around as the vocals to the music begins. I'm now inclined to think that the first character we are actually introduced to here, is Edgar, and that we just never knew it. If ghosts can exist, then surely Edgar is somewhere in halloween town, no longer the pumpkin king, but a frustrated spirit. Maybe his spirit even still has a little bit of it's old powers. =) thatd be cool right? also it's pretty gnarly that Jack dresses up kinda like Edgar for his grand entrance. I wonder if this is some traditional thing or if Jack was really like 'hold my beer" XD
It seems like the holiday figures with powers are always the oldest ones, if you take into account Santa's holiday magic... while he's clearly younger than this pumpkin king... he's still an old man nonetheless 🤔🎃✨️ -Adam
I feel the finale to this book was anti climactic. Jack doesn’t develop any anger towards Oogie that he has originally in the movie. I feel if this is adapted, the third and final act needs a heroic moment for jack to stand up to oogie for others. You couldve set up how oogie was kinda a jerk friend to jack, but he never stood up to him. Maybe have him pick on others in town after cheating to win, jack stopping his rampage, and earning the pumpkin king title while also establishing a rivalry and hatred between the contestants.
Anyone remember the gba game that made oogy boogy be the king of bugs from the forgotten bug dsy holiday ( yes this was real) also had one of the scariest victory screens in a gba game , it pretty funny there first attempt at a prequel was on the gba
Oddly enough, this past weekend, I came across a copy of this graphic novel at my local Walmart. I thought it looked very cool, but I didn’t have any money to spare in my budget in order to get it. This video helped explain the plot to me and I thank you greatly.
The battle for the pumpkin king being the sequel of nightmare before Christmas, with Jack skeleton and Oogie Boogey, be in a contest, they should turned that into a movie because the story feels like a sequel from the first movie
I would kill for a Nightmare before Christmas stop motion animated series or an animation style similar to the Tangled cartoon only spookier. The show could adapt the pumpkin queen book, do this comic in flashback, explores the other realms, and have recurring characters from each realm, and set up the return of Boogie, as well as set up an evil eviler threat. It would also be cool, in the cartooon, if they combined Nightmare before Christmas’ Halloween town with Disney’s other Halloween town just to see Marnie her family and friends return in animated form. (Or I suppose the other Halloweentown could be an alternate universe to Jacks only accessible through another door in the extended forest. Actually now that I think about that could be a better idea to crossover both franchises, with out contradicting either.) There could One season every October into November. Kinda like a Halloween special mini series every year. I think that would be cool though.
maybe the wind is something a pumpkin king can learn to control the wind if they know they can. my biggest point is that the wind was what brought Jack to charismas town. it shoved jack through the door when he tried to turn away maybe his subconscious conjured it as he just had a song about how he wants to find something else
If I remember correctly, Tim Burton mentioned that there is no magic per se in Halloween Town. But since you mention it, considering that Santa Claus uses magic (to return with his reindeer sleigh and bring snow to Halloween), the residents must possess some sort of mysterious skill or characteristic that allows them to make use of supernatural powers (like something out of a nightmare or a horror tale), as how the clown who can remove his face, how jack can survive being burned for a few moments, the existence of zero (i know its a dog ghost, but does he "dies" of old age or will he live for more time than his owners?) or how the mayor can rotate his head.
Very interesting! - i didn't know anything about there being a prequel. I have to wonder whether Jack himself is a pumpkin or a even a true skeleton as he is said to have originally been a kind of voodoo doll as seen in the background of the short film Vincent
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the line in the opening song ‘This Is Halloween’ while the camera pans over Sally: “I am the wind blowing through your hair.” This line actually occurs right before the shadow of what looks like Oogy Boogie over the moon singing “I am the shadow in the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.” Perhaps Oogie’s shadow in the moon is all that is left of the real Oogie, or maybe a reference to how is merely a shadow of who he once was. Also, when Jack is singing on the spiral hill just after the opening scene, he leans down and wiggles his fingers with his arms outstretched pushing air through the Jack-o-lanterns that then seem to exhale ghosts. Maybe he has the power of the wind but chooses not to wield it, and that gracious restraint is what makes him so kind and beloved by the residents of Halloweentown.
I don’t think the TNBC games are Canon because there’s also a Incredibles game that is a sequel to the original movie but obviously isn’t the actual sequel to the movie (incredibles 2) and because TNBC and the Incredibles are both Disney things I assume the same kind of logic applies to the TNBC games.
The simplest answer is parallel universes, in which case the movie is the main timeline, and the games in their own. I like to think the books go better with the movie and is part of the main timeline, but i think Jack and Oogie did meet again and fight before the movie takes place. It's up to us fan to piece together plot holes and timelines. I feel like games based off of movies always have to stretch out more in terms of story and dialogue because they have to focus so much on the gameplay, controls, and visuals more than the actual story, but especially with really old games like the nightmare before Christmas games. I just tend to notice a distinct lack of story value in certain PS2 and Gameboy games. It's not just Nightmare before Christmas, some of the early nickelodeon and Scooby-Doo game adaptations lack story as well.
I love lore, Halloween, and nightmare before Christmas and graphic novels so sign me up. Also Edgar slogan is definitely " let's Make Halloween town great again".
I’m an aging curmudgeon presently exhausted by modern nostalgia mining. I respect the analysis here, as I do understand that this universe is deeply meaningful for a lot of people, but I can’t help but feel that the new book is basically glorified fan fiction and a callous cash grab to boot.
Something not related to the canon that I wanted to mention, was how this story could change were Edgar not Edgar. This story reads like a fable, a short fantasy of the past intended to teach about the present: A story of two friends, each with a goal, and different approaches to their problems. The first solves through use of what they are given, with only a single pair of hands. The second, envious, sought advantageous shortcuts, even if was not meant for their hands. While the sufficient competitor wasn’t able to be tempted…the role of power instead called to the jealous one, who pushed out their love of a friendship to make room for fuel of a desire, A desire so weighted, that the jealous one saw only a loss so heavy that they no longer considered themself a friend, instead devoting their future to stealing this desire, instead.
Honestly I think the wind is a sentient thing as we hear them in "This Is Halloween" so I believe the wind is an old friend of Edgar's. It is similar to the grim reaper/death and does not interfere with the happenings of the town. At least that is what I believe.
People saying quotes it doesn’t need a prequel” can you shut the hell up. Give me all the nightmare before Christmas contents possible! But it has to be done, right. That means Disney stay away.
So he controls wind? I cant help but be reminded of the lyrics in the opening song "I am the wind blowing through your hair." Maybe Edgar still watches over the town in some way?
The wind isnt that far fetched if you think about it. "I am the wind flowing through your hair". The whole song of this is halloween introduces citizens of halloween town and what their powers are if not just there for being scary/creepy
Sally's hair growing is the only non-mystery there; Dead bodies continue to have their hair grow long after death. It's how some of the first vampire myths arose.
Could be that Edgar is the "Who when you call who's there" or the voice of the wind in the 'This is Halloween' song, what with his seemingly unique control over wind
2:42 as I was watching this i found this to be an interesting question, I definitely think the Grim Reaper isnt in charge because honestly death isnt all that scary. Theres a ton of other ways your life can be ruined without you dying, and death would be a blessing during time of extreme horrors.
It’s interesting to note that while Jack never displayed any sort of wind related powers, it could be argued that Oogie Boogie does, given his usage of a vacuum breath ability similar to Kirby.
My head canon is gonna be that the Pumpkin King is basically to Halloween what Santa is to Christmas, and whomever rules the holiday gets powers. In the video game, Jack gets fire powers when in the Pumpkin King form so maybe thats his equivalent of Edgar's "Wind" powers.
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Honestly, I like how this graphic novel completely recontextualises why Oogie and Jack hate each other. Instead of it just being conflicting philosophies about how to do Halloween it’s actually a broken bond between friends.
Which makes the scene of Oogie’s death at the hands of Jack that much sadder.😢
The wicked witch of the West was tricked to be evil
what was he made of before cells like me
Did you check the plot to the GBA game? That was a Prequel too.
Death probably was the pumpkin king before it was even a thing. It's far older than Halloween itself after all, so Edgar, being a pumpkin, was probably the first proper pumpkin king after Death decided to stop ruling the realm once Halloween became Halloween.
I imagine death is the founding member. He may or may not have been the pumpkin king, but it’s only a title to him.
Going off what I have read the origin of Halloween is I would believe that Death would be a founding member of Halloween town and had the leadership role that became the pumpkin king.
I think the being who sing “I am the “who” when you call, “Who’s there?” and the other one sings “I am the wind blowing through your hair.” Are probably pretty old too. By the way I feel like someone might argue I will say that obvious difference of voices between the two lines after each other.
Skellington and Edgar look like Skid n Pump
wouldn't it make more sense for the first King of Halloween after Death to have a turnip head since before America was discovered, Turnips were used?
Edgar can't possible be the very first Pumpkin King going by that logic.
@@oucyan Well the holiday was about protecting from, confusing/hiding from, or appeasing wandering ghosts and stuff even during the turnips if I remember correctly. So until probably like less than 5 hundred years ago it was like what I said so the role of pumpkin king was probably a more recent change of title of a position of the Grim reaper. It is entirely possible that the more scary and threatening Halloween idea came from the time that Grim had the leadership role.
I've actually figured the people of Halloween Town age (Save for the Vampire Bros.) from the Oogie's Revenge game. If you click on the guillotine in the square, you get a bit of text from Jack saying that he had a guillotine "When he was a boy." And in the Vampire Bros. house, if you read the book in the room where you put the bats away, it mentions that they have served Hallwoeen Town by aiding "the Sovregin of Screams." AKA, the Pumpkin King.
And I like to think that each Pumpkin King has a unique power thanks to this game and the movie. While Edger could control the wind, Jack's element is FIRE. He did not burn alive at the beginning of the movie and in his Pumpkin King form in Oogie's Revenge, he is able to breathe fire like a fire-eater. Most likely, whenever the Pumpking Crown is passed down, the new Pumpkin King's element is awakened and they have particular mastery over that element. But that's my theory.
during the beginning song in the movie there is a character that says I am the who when you call who's there I had always assumed that was the wind everywhere and anywhere all at once
@@InternetStrangerThatCanRead
"I am the who when you call who's there, I am the wind blowing through your hair"
Perhaps this is Edgar?
@@tanandalynch9441maybe after turning to dust, his spirit became a part of the winds he could control.
@@tanandalynch9441 I was thinking Edgar would be one of the pumpkins that scream in the dead of night
So would the next Pumpkin King have water powers? And then next would have earth powers? And the next would become the Avatar?
For some reason I feel like the Pumpkin King was also under the control of insects, specifically the spider.
Maybe his tenure was coming to an end because the bugs were causing him to rot as evidenced by his head.
He needs Oogie to be the next vessel because Burlap sacks don't rot like pumpkins do.
He lays his body to rest so nonchalantly because even though it seems like he failed, he succeeded in transferring himself/his evil essence into Oogie.
Those weren’t random bugs. Those were his soul bugs. 😮
@@CadoAstrumso the bugs are the true parasyte puppetmasters
Yes they were glowing green bugs and if you remember at the end of the movie, Jack squash a green glowing bug.
9:44 I think it's definitely the bugs /parasites because as we can see nobody else is affected by this, the green bugs are the parasite and are the true puppet Master
@@TheFlash-vb9bjSanta squashed it though, not Jack?
There seems to be a general theme of characters from halloween town not being inherently evil, but being caused to become evil indirectly or causing evil themselves accidentally. For instance, in the original movie Jack himself ends up becoming a villain simply from the joy of discovering something new and wanting to experience it for himself, and is eventually regretful when he realizes what he's done. If we consider this story to be canon to the original film, it paints a picture of evil being something not native to halloween town and its residents, but rather something consequential in nature. Even this Edgar fellow seems to be a corrupted soul victim to the same curse he's passing onto Oogie.
That’s actually very plausible.
You might be on to somethin. Remember in the song
“Life’s no fun without a good scare!
That’s our job, but we’re not mean!
In our town of Halloween!”
They are scary to be mean, they’re scary because they wanna have fun. Halloweentown seems to celebrate just to have fun. At its core they don’t want to be mean or hurt others but just have a good time
Oh wow
That's easily 100% true, it would make sense because Halloween (or rather, Samhain) itself isn't to do with evil anything - it's meant to be a time of mischief, celebration, and spooky vibes because it was always a holiday about strange spirits crossing into our realm to do mischief. Not necessarily evil, but to bring about mischief. Alternately, it's the time when veil between worlds are thin, and when the spirits of those departed return to visit and watch over us (see Day of the Dead and All Souls' Night as examples of this idea). In all cases that's... well, spooky, but not really evil. Though some original Samhain legends DID include more malicious spirits and beings that could cause misfortune being able to be scared away, hence the concept of dressing in costumes to fool them and jack-o-lanterns to scare them away.
Of course "that's [their] job but [they're] not mean", Halloween is about fun surprises and spookiness, as well as a time to celebrate the turning of seasons and the magic of the unknown and macabre. Nobody in Halloweentown is inherently evil at all, beecause Halloween doesn't celebrate evil.
I believe there's something that talked about an ancient Bug holiday as well. Perhaps it was an escaped evil glow bug that ventured away and into Halloween Town that finally introduced Evil to it by parasyting an original Pumpkin King.
Maybe the reson why Jack has been alive and has been the pumpkin king for so long is because he's not a pumpkin, and is a skeleton. Because, Skeletons don't actually wither away even after death. They can be broken and crushed but unless they are burned by fire than they can't really disappear (Aka turn to ashes by cremation) which is why he is has been the king for so long. It would make since if the past pumpkin kings have been actual pumpkins like Edgur, but pumpkins slowly rot away and become moldy and squishy after a long while of being laid out. Which, would mean that they are all basically gonna die at some point. Unlike Jack, who is, again, literally a skeleton.
But Jack catches fire and doesn't burn. He can even breathe fire in Oogies Revenge on his Pumpkin King Form
Also, like how someone mentioned at the comments, Jack is overall much more flexible with Halloween, he's not really bound to tradition, and can make Halloween follow whatever path he feels like doing that year, whether that be something more classic, do a full 180 on the holiday, or something in between, which may make his staying power all the stronger, because he can easily adapt to the times and always can come up with an answer to keep the holiday relevant, unlike the previous king
Bones don't turn into dust even in cremarion. They have to blended even after burning.
Whoa bro thats wow
@@dustymcwari4468 mind that flows like water, is more flexible then stone.
The pumpkin patch being a graveyard of fallen pumpkin kings is actually a really cool concept. I love that.
Agreed
I think Jack does have supernatural powers; immediately after he says he's a "master of fright" he adds "and a demon of light", which is highly suggestive. Then, immediately after THAT, he says, "and I'll scare you right out of your pants" while waving his hands down at the pumpkin patch, causing all the jack-o-lanterns to open up and moan, and the ghosts inside to fly out. Perhaps his "and they call him... Sandy... Claws!" moment at the town hall was not the Mayor sliding a red filter over the spotlight, but Jack exerting his control as a "demon of light" to alter the environment... to make it more spooky!
And that could very well be the reason we never see Jack flexing his powers as the Pumpkin King: those powers are to scare people, and, for most of the movie, he neither needs to nor want to. Heck, the whole point of the movie is that he's tired! He doesn't like his job anymore, he's burnt out!
The only time in the movie where we would expect to see him use his powers is during the confrontation with Oogie Boogie, and we DO see a number of tricks, though most of them are less mystical and more feats of strength and agility. Thing is, during that fight, Jack utterly DOMINATES Oogie; nothing Oogie throws at him causes Jack any trouble. Everything is easily avoided or dealt with, with only a second or two on Jack's part to observe and plan. Bear in mind, a "master of fright and a demon of light" doesn't NEED cheap tricks or cheats to win, and Jack doesn't use any, nor does he at any point have his back against the wall in such a way where it seems like he'd even need to consider it.
I do think Jack, as the Pumpkin King, has powers... but I think he's the sort to use them responsibly. The only time he (potentially) doesn't is when he's lamenting that even powers can't bring him fulfillment.
Dude that's sick a demon of light
Well said
this has to possibly be canon it's such a logical analyzation
i mean he literally has his face pasted on the sun
“Demon of light” feels like a cool rhyme that doesn’t need to be expanded on… *And yet*
10:57
Funntidbit of information here: since we're talking about the inconsistencies of the story of Halloween Towns portrayle in different mediums. In the Kingdom Hearts series Jack is a powerful Mage.
He falls under the Final Fantasy jobclass Black Mage: nothing but offensive magic. He can call down lightning, a bolt coming down every time he swings his fingers downward, as if dragging the bolt from the sky. He can summon a frozen jagged snowflake that floats through the air and follows enemies, freezing and stabbing them as it floats about. He can summon 3 massive flaming pumpkins that surround his body then dash foward, engulfing enemies in his flames as he rams into them. And he can summon spheres of solid gravity above enemies which slowly lower towards thebground, crushing enemies into the ground.
Jack isn't just the Pumpkin King, he's the king of everything Halloween! He only had one true movie but his legacy stayed true, he has lasted unlike any other character in history.
Peak
I personally like to head cannon that both “The Pumpkin King” and “Battle for The Pumpkin King” exist at the same time in the sense that one version is the story that Jack remembers and the other is the way Oogie would tell it.
Ooooh, this is cool! My question is, which is which? Is BfTPK Jack's memory or Oogie's?
So, what if the beings in the holiday worlds are powered by belief? Edgar doesn't like that Halloween Town isn't fear based, but that's because in the mortal world, Halloween was becoming more and more a family friendly, less scary holiday. If we put TNBC in "present day", it would take place in the 90's-ish (the scenes in the mortal world look more like the 50's, but whatever). And by the 90's Halloween was just starting to get back its scarier side.
So, at the time of this particular prequel, Halloween has become a "kids" holiday. Less scary, more fun. Edgar is losing his power because of this (hence the withered and rotted appearance). He wants to change this back to fear to hold onto his power.
This would also explain why Santa has more magic than others. Christmas doesn't change much. It's very much the same as it was 30, 50, 80, almost a hundred years ago. You'd have to go back a while to see a very different Christmas. So, Santa doesn't change, or get replaced. Whereas Halloween goes through plenty of peaks and valleys. Horror, to fun, whimsy to macabre. Death and demons, to princesses and superheroes. Jack is more the current free spirit of Halloween. Edgar was the former cold and creepy spirit.
I gotta agree with that since it would make sense
im loving the pastel Halloween decor and trend
So it would look like the Halloweentown in the Disney channel original movie?
What an interesting coincidence that you came to the same conclusion that I did.
I don't think Halloween was ever specifically scary lol
In the present day, it would be 2000-2024. Why put 90s
6:13 "i am the who when you call whos there" "and i am the wind blowing through your hair" maybe edgar is friends with the wind blowing through your hair?
Even though its not canon to the story of the film universe, the Kingdom Hearts series depicts jack as a master of Magic with elemental spells like Bolts of sorrow, Icy terror and Blazing Fury.
So glad that Jack won the pumpkin contest for creativity, because that's exactly what Halloween is about
Honestly The Nightmare Before Christmas doesn’t need a prequel. Holiday towns are timeless. The residents don’t age.
I dunno. Jack and Sally evidently later have kids, so there’s at least some sense of age for the inhabitants.
I actually never thought this, and still don't. Nightmare town is full of death and decay, which only come from life. Certain characters like the skeletons probably wouldn't age, but they would have a death day, and Jack is portrayed different from the other skeletons.
Christmas town is actually portrayed as very similar to the real world, it even has a cemetery of its own, leading me to think Santa is the only potentially immortal character, but if the pumpkin King is replaced periodically I would think he was too.
The very theme of the movie is "growing tired of the same old thing".
So I disagree. I don't really see anything to suggest the towns are ageless. After all, humanity isn't ageless and we invented the holidays.
It should only get a prequel if Danny Elfman writes it.
Holidays aren’t really timeless though. They change an evolve often. Halloween is not he same as the festival of samhain
But, certain events do still occur before other ones tho don’t they? I mean, regardless of how ageless one might b past & future still exist for them do they not?
Edar must represents Samhain especially with the way he was able to use magic. So he was just the older version of what holloween once was.
Jack must represent a new era of holloween.
Makes sense that the Holiday Towns evolve with the holidays. But do the holidays in the human world change because of events in the town, or do events in the towns reflect the changes in the holiday?
@@matthewstarkie4254 thats the true question!!!
*Halloween
I thought Edgar might represent Samhain! Nice to see I'm not the only one who thought that
I have always felt the holiday towns are just reflections of holidays on Earth - it makes far more sense this way.
My theory is that each Pumpkin King is granted mastery over one of the four elements; Edgar was wind, Jack is fire and a past Pumpkin King (possibly Edgar's successor) was Earth. This is because of the lines in This is Halloween that say "I am the hoo when you call 'who's there? I am the wind blowing through your hair". Edgar is the wind blowing through your hair and the "hoo when you call who's there" is likely the Pumpkin King before Edgar who could use his Earth powers to control all the night dwelling creatures, owls in particular. Similarly I think the reason why jack o' lanterns are associated with ghosts in Halloween Town is because the dust of the previous Pumpkin King is mixed with soil and used to grow a pumpkin which is then turned into a jack o' lantern which houses the spirit of the previous Pumpkin King.
Isn't it "I am the Who when you call whose there".
As in like, they're the one thats there?
@@Cheesemeister27 maybe but I feel like that part of the song was evoking the feeling of walking alone in the woods at night and having the hoo of an owl reply to your call of "who's there?" when you hear a noise.
so the avatar?
@@danielcurren2119 more like regular benders, I don't think any of them can use all four
@@MysteriumArcanumit is 100% not an owl, it'a "who"
On the note of jack's lack of magic:
While the song Jack's Lament plays, he waves hands to pumpkings and they open up, light up and howl.
So... he might have some magic, besides nigh industribility.
He clearly can control fire to some degree, which makes sense - bones are all that is left after cremation of a body, and even then they must be pounded into fragments. Jack is flexible, nimble, can reassemble himself when he loses limbs and even his head, has control over fear tactics itself as King of Halloween, and can somewhat control fire. Notable in that a fire can both warm... and destroy. Jack is shown to do both, his passion is fiery and intense when he finds something he is intrigued by, that spark in him burns like a flame that can't go out. Jack is a warm, caring, friendly person but he's also, in the pursuit of something bigger than him, accidentally destructive, like a wildfire. He's a passionate charismatic warm leader with a creative spark that people rally around like a bonfire, which makes him a natural leader. This perfectly suits him.
Edgar may have been the bone-chilling fear and coldness of Halloween, but Jack Skellington is the warmth, coziness, and frightening power of Halloween. Edgar is the wind blowing through your hair that whispers fearful things and freezes you to the core, but Jack is the bonfire you enjoy candy around while telling scary stories in the dark on a fall night. Both have the capability to cause fear, both are powerful, and both are emblematic of Halloween in different ways.
Wait so Edgar was this evil but when Oogie lost he just laid down and gave up, sounding kind of relieved for a break?! Thats such a weird idea for an addition to the story of NBC! I always thought that the Pumpkin King title was more about the respect for your role in the holiday this town exists for, but now its an inherited title and this scarecrow has to have a successor but would have in theory been able to stick around and puppeteer them after retiring, yet when that option was taken he just goes to sleep forever?! What was forcing him to step down at all?
Not to mention its just kind of weird that Jack barely had a part to play in the story, does he even know what his predecessor did to his friend by the end?! Like, thats weird to think about, right? Jack just kind of won this apparently powerful role as a kid bc if some silly competitions, and even all the years later that the film takes place he has no idea what Edgar was acrually like, why Oogie got corrupted, none of it!
Yeah, I don't like the comic too :v
I think it's supposed to imply that he dies? Or at least doesn't have the energy to keep physically moving so that lamentation is meant to be his last words?
I also believe this is confusing most likely due to age demographic/ratings.
Well to be fair Jack was never told anything, he was over there being a good boy meanwhile the man who eventually became his successor was over there manipulating his best friend into thinking Jack betrayed him, and the only real interaction Jack and Edgar have after Jack wins is Edgar essentially congratulating Jack and then Edgar goes off to die and then Oogie just never bothered to tell Jack what Edgar and him were doing behind the scenes
If the competition was blessed by magic or cursed by evil, then the winner would be binding. Edgar made the competition, so them being kinda dumb was him trying to give Oogie an advantage.
I think Edgar wasn't really trying to rest in the end, I think he had no choice but to lay down with the other pumpkins of past Kings and fade away
Because he passed his bugs on and into a successor aka Oogie Boogie when he gave them the cup full of bugs; aka his soul/spirit. Even if his intended successor failed to win, he still passed on his soul/spirit aka the bugs.
This is one of my all time favorite movies and I NEVER noticed the grim reaper. Ever! How'd I miss that?
I think that when they reach adulthood, the age reeeeaaally slowly. I mean in Sally book, we know she was a lil girl once and we asume the bogie kids died when they were kids (but because of their names ) I think they were assesinated, because abusive or poor parents, and its easier to end a baby that a kid who will fight back
Wasn't the wind in HalloweenTown alive? Or is it just whispering the whole time?
Also, I thought Oogie Boogie is the mass of insects/snakes in the sack, but this prequel makes it appear he IS the sack. Situation like with Sinistea and Polteageist.
in that sense, Oogie wasn't in conrol at the point in time that movie takes place. IT was the bugs in control by then.
The real Oogie was the sack cloth man, but he was cursed and possessed by the bugs
@@chrismanuel9768 ... That implies the real Oogie is dead, long dead, and the bugs now control his skin.
I'm just glad we finally got lore on this series, Also I kinda like the idea of oogie simply being messed up due to him being broken
If i saw this as a fanfiction id just see it as very self indulgent fun for someone who really really liked Oogie in the film but also had it in their head that they cant like evil characters so they have to make up a way that its not his fault that he is the way he is in spite of how that pretry much ruins the actual character
But nope, its official, or, as official as it can get when the people making the decisions for the franchise have nothing to do with the people behind the original film or poem 😅
There is the implication that the "Oogie" we know is a husk puppeted by the same bugs that controlled Edgar. In that sense, the character didn't change so much as the vessel.
Oogie isn't ruined, only given context. The bugs are cursed and he's lost his soul. In this world evil is a consequence, not a character trait. Oogie was innocent as any other denizen of Halloweentown. His apparent evil was the consequence of corruption.
I'm glad the video games are taken seriously as official lore to this series and aren't just treated as tie-in merchandise, I really enjoyed Oogie's Revenge as it actually played into the musical side of the movie by making the boss battles involve both combat and rhythm QTEs, and actually expanded the lore of the holidays to include the concept of the Seven Holidays King - a title where a single person is in control of all seven major festive events - which, of course, Oogie plans to take for himself.
It's not often you find multiple media formats to be all canon to a story's timeline as opposed to just sticking to one and treating everything else as a spin-off or non-canon event, but it's something I can really appreciate about TNBC.
I think oogie was going to do that to lock shock and barrel if you remember their song. He feeds them snake and spider stew like he was fed if I remember correctly.
Fitting in that those are venomous creatures. Oogie literally POISONS them to do evil. Lock Shock and Barrel are not by nature bad kids, they're just mischievous and working for Oogie because he's literally controlling them with poison.
When there is a new video of abitfrank, today is a good day
I think Edgar's real motives were to pass down his power and way of thinking to the next generation so they could sow discord in his place. Boogie becoming the pumpkin king would have just been a bonus.
6:35 i’m not sure you played the games, but in the pumpkin king, the video game, Jack has the power of wind in that game in Oogies revenge, Jack had the ability to transform into a scarecrow and use fire abilities and transform into his Santa Claus, like form, and use ice powers so Jack does have powers. It just said he doesn’t use them that much in the film Jack apparently can stretch his skin skeleton skin, whatever so Jack has some probably shake shifting abilities, and since his dog zero is a ghost, Jack also has the ability to command the dead I think all pumpkin king has a lot of powers, but Jack doesn’t use them that much
This book is sort of based on the gba game released in 2005. In the game, oogie boogie is jealous that Jack is scarier than him, so he infests Halloween town with bugs and turns them into crawloween. Jack wins, orders oogie to stay in his lair forever and rescues Sally in canonically their first meeting.
I admit that it kind of felt like a chapter was missing towards the end, like a confrontation of Jack and Edgar's philosophies.
It's fascinating how after 30 years this series continues to grow and having more of its lore explored and expanded.
The addition of Edgar to the world and setting was very interesting I found.
Everyone being kids and Jack and Oogie being childhood friends feels kinda lame though.
I always liked how Oogie came from a now dead Holiday realm revolving around bugs, snakes, and other creatures. He was like a link to a far older world and culture than modern day’s holidays.
Holy crap i was binge watching your tnbc videos and caught this one right when it was uploaded damn
Anyone else getting Emperor-pulling-Anakin's-strings vibes from Edgar and Oogie's interaction? 🤔
I saw this show live at the Hollywood Bowl last night. Danny Elfman is one hell of a drug. He was so hyper and energized and in-character. And then he treated us to not one but TWO Oingo Boingo songs, adding “No One Lives Forever” as a special treat for the full moon weekend. I wish my phone wasn’t nearly dead so I could record it but I needed to save it as my Greyhound ticket home and to call my aunt to tell her when to pick me up.
I hope you have a happy Halloween 🎃
Always happy to see you drop a new video, Abitfrank!
I think the reason Edgar has magic is a product of his time. Magic was believed in back then and the more recent Jack Skellington with modern houses you have mad science as the culprit of horrors.
I love your videos so much! I hope more people discover this channel:)
Unless Tim wrote it &/or gave it his blessing I don't want to count it as canon.I loved your video and pacing!Watched it for its 30th anniversary in theaters at Universal Thursday.I never noticed there was a GateKeeper Character in Halloween town until the big screen. (;
Same here. If something is going to be theorized as "canon", I want to hear it from the mouth of Tim burton himself if it IS or GOING to be canon..
@foolishraven9478 don't forget Henry Selik Tim wrote the original poem but Selik directed the movie
Tru, the confirmation has to be a team effort.
"Tim"? Lmao so only the poem is canon? Nothing from the movie is canon, confirmed.
the problem with that is Tim sold it, so now what ever bob says is canon is canon, tim doesn't have a say anymore because he sold it to the mouse with the rest of his soul.
Since I'm writing a little N.B.C. story/fic it's always nice to go back to your old videos for insights, and suddenly find another one today!
6:30 control the wind? As in the very wind that pulled Jack into the Christmas world in the movie?
8:56 I suppose you could say... "he pulls the strings and makes them ring"
It's a funny garbage living man reference
Makes sense that people in Halloween Town grow and get old and so forth...we see families in Halloween Town, and we see kids too, and the fact that Jack and Sally can have kids is very telling...
I always considered Halloween Town like Christmas Town, just like how every elf in that town has a life of their own, some with families and kids, well...Halloween Town is the same with its citizens, just, you know...with monsters, just as we never ask if elves in Christmas Town are dead or how they can have families...we shouldn't make those questions in Halloween Town...as I think is clear people in Halloween Town aren't actual death people...and I always think of Corpse Bride as a reference, were in her Death Town, we see skeletons, heads that talk, and decaying bodies, yet all look very "normal", you know? There are dead people, but we don't see witches, vampires, werewolves, or any monsters...at very best, the only weird thing in the world of Emily are the talking bugs (funny enought, in Halloween Town bugs don't talk, unless we count Oogie)...
I have always wondered, if the Holiday towns are the representation of what the humans cherish, love, and think about the Holiday...Saint Valentine? Cupid, roses love hearts, sweets, candies, silly poems, Halloween, ghouls, monsters, pumpkins, tricks, pranks and frights, Chritsmas, snow, sweets, presents, ginger houses, Christmas trees, elves, raindeers, Santa and his wife (I think those two and the raindeers are the only real immortals out there), etc, you know what I mean...so may look weird and all, but are just that, reflections of how the humans fell and think of those holidays, therefor why is important for the Towns to keep their Hollyday alive and consistent and to them to not be forgotten...or would probably mean the end and destruction of their world...)
Based on the video games, I think we can assume Jack's Halloween Magic element is Fire.
Edgar might have control over wind, but Jack is impervious to fire in the movie, using a torch to immolate himself for show, he can launch himself as a fire ball in the GBA game, and he can both breath fire and explode fire in Oogie's Revenge.
I think the games have their own time line and the books and the movie are another time line. That is all that makes sense here
"if a demon hands you a cup and you drink from it are you at fault?" there are 2 actions here, the demon hands you a cup, not your fault that is the demons actions, if you drink from it that is your action, you can choose not to drink, so yes it is indeed your fault
I think about this game from time to time.
I’m pretty sure he can control pumpkin patches to do his bidding. He also may have the ability to use grave yards as a direct access to Halloweentown(that could just be a thing where all things spooky lead to Halloweentown).
Now I kinda wanna see a sequel story where Oogie gets redeemed and Edgar attempts to retake control. That line of "for now I can rest" seems to imply he doesn't plan on staying down forever.
Kinda hard to redeem a dead guy
@@tanandalynch9441 they already brought him back once before for the game Oogie's Revenge. He's a living pillow case full of bugs living in a town with a skeleton, zombies, and a living patchwork doll. it wouldn't be hard to bring him back.
@@torazely
He was literally crushed to death by Santa in the movie. The final earwig was stomped. Oogies Revenge is also not canon.
@@tanandalynch9441 just because one bug was crushed doesn't mean anything. There were hundreds of bugs in him. We don't know for sure if that one bug meant anything in the grand scheme of things.
@@torazely
Literally all of them fell into the lava with that one being crushed. They're all dead dude
Today is my birthday 🎉🎂🎉 and I'm so happy you posted a video on this day
Happy birthday 🎉
HAPPY birthday
Happy Birthday 🎊🎁
Happy Birthday 🎉❤🎉
Happy birthday
I dont know who else said to make a video about the manga preqel but i got so excited when i saw this recommended to me. I love your nightmare before christmas videos.
the movie briefly does indicate jack and oogie were friends in the past this could explain why they became enemies
I love the art pieces you do for all these videos!
It would be fitting that the old pumpkin king would be darker and more evil considering the origin of modern Halloween was much darker. The king changes as the culture around the holiday changes perhaps? And if the holiday where to ever die out, what would become of the denizens of a dead holiday town? That could be an interesting plot actually, the denizens of a long forgotten holiday try coming back by trying to take over Halloween town.
I wonder if Christmas Town was once ruled by Frau Perchta but was overthrown by Saint Nicholas.
The pumpkin king was able to control a whole character as a character in the Halloween song says "I am the wind blowing in your hair"
Watching an analysis on one of my favorite movies with a voice as soothing as yours is a treat.
one of the first things in the movie's intro that you see is wind manipulating the door open, blowing a sign so the pumpkin headed scarecrow points towards the town, and jostling some ghosts around as the vocals to the music begins. I'm now inclined to think that the first character we are actually introduced to here, is Edgar, and that we just never knew it. If ghosts can exist, then surely Edgar is somewhere in halloween town, no longer the pumpkin king, but a frustrated spirit. Maybe his spirit even still has a little bit of it's old powers. =) thatd be cool right?
also it's pretty gnarly that Jack dresses up kinda like Edgar for his grand entrance. I wonder if this is some traditional thing or if Jack was really like 'hold my beer" XD
Ah yes, the nightmare before the nightmare before Christmas
6:40 "I am the wind blowing through your hair"
It seems like the holiday figures with powers are always the oldest ones, if you take into account Santa's holiday magic... while he's clearly younger than this pumpkin king...
he's still an old man nonetheless 🤔🎃✨️
-Adam
I had a feeling that Jack and Oogie used to be friends.
The serotonin I get every time you say Oogie Boogie - so good.
Brings a new idea to the scene where it says “I am the wind blowing through your hair”
I feel the finale to this book was anti climactic. Jack doesn’t develop any anger towards Oogie that he has originally in the movie. I feel if this is adapted, the third and final act needs a heroic moment for jack to stand up to oogie for others. You couldve set up how oogie was kinda a jerk friend to jack, but he never stood up to him. Maybe have him pick on others in town after cheating to win, jack stopping his rampage, and earning the pumpkin king title while also establishing a rivalry and hatred between the contestants.
What if the old pumpkin king became the wind from the line in the opening song “I am the wind blowing through your hair.”
If a demon hands you cup and you drink from it are you at fault, short answer? Yes!.
Anyone remember the gba game that made oogy boogy be the king of bugs from the forgotten bug dsy holiday ( yes this was real) also had one of the scariest victory screens in a gba game , it pretty funny there first attempt at a prequel was on the gba
Oddly enough, this past weekend, I came across a copy of this graphic novel at my local Walmart. I thought it looked very cool, but I didn’t have any money to spare in my budget in order to get it. This video helped explain the plot to me and I thank you greatly.
The battle for the pumpkin king being the sequel of nightmare before Christmas, with Jack skeleton and Oogie Boogey, be in a contest, they should turned that into a movie because the story feels like a sequel from the first movie
The Battle for Pumpkin King is not a sequel to The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's a prequel to The Nightmare Before Christmas.
I would kill for a Nightmare before Christmas stop motion animated series or an animation style similar to the Tangled cartoon only spookier. The show could adapt the pumpkin queen book, do this comic in flashback, explores the other realms, and have recurring characters from each realm, and set up the return of Boogie, as well as set up an evil eviler threat. It would also be cool, in the cartooon, if they combined Nightmare before Christmas’ Halloween town with Disney’s other Halloween town just to see Marnie her family and friends return in animated form. (Or I suppose the other Halloweentown could be an alternate universe to Jacks only accessible through another door in the extended forest. Actually now that I think about that could be a better idea to crossover both franchises, with out contradicting either.) There could One season every October into November. Kinda like a Halloween special mini series every year. I think that would be cool though.
maybe the wind is something a pumpkin king can learn to control the wind if they know they can. my biggest point is that the wind was what brought Jack to charismas town. it shoved jack through the door when he tried to turn away maybe his subconscious conjured it as he just had a song about how he wants to find something else
If I remember correctly, Tim Burton mentioned that there is no magic per se in Halloween Town. But since you mention it, considering that Santa Claus uses magic (to return with his reindeer sleigh and bring snow to Halloween), the residents must possess some sort of mysterious skill or characteristic that allows them to make use of supernatural powers (like something out of a nightmare or a horror tale), as how the clown who can remove his face, how jack can survive being burned for a few moments, the existence of zero (i know its a dog ghost, but does he "dies" of old age or will he live for more time than his owners?) or how the mayor can rotate his head.
Very interesting! - i didn't know anything about there being a prequel. I have to wonder whether Jack himself is a pumpkin or a even a true skeleton as he is said to have originally been a kind of voodoo doll as seen in the background of the short film Vincent
I never known how interesting the lore behind the Nightmare Before Christmas was that interesting.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the line in the opening song ‘This Is Halloween’ while the camera pans over Sally: “I am the wind blowing through your hair.” This line actually occurs right before the shadow of what looks like Oogy Boogie over the moon singing “I am the shadow in the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.”
Perhaps Oogie’s shadow in the moon is all that is left of the real Oogie, or maybe a reference to how is merely a shadow of who he once was.
Also, when Jack is singing on the spiral hill just after the opening scene, he leans down and wiggles his fingers with his arms outstretched pushing air through the Jack-o-lanterns that then seem to exhale ghosts. Maybe he has the power of the wind but chooses not to wield it, and that gracious restraint is what makes him so kind and beloved by the residents of Halloweentown.
I don’t think the TNBC games are Canon because there’s also a Incredibles game that is a sequel to the original movie but obviously isn’t the actual sequel to the movie (incredibles 2) and because TNBC and the Incredibles are both Disney things I assume the same kind of logic applies to the TNBC games.
The simplest answer is parallel universes, in which case the movie is the main timeline, and the games in their own. I like to think the books go better with the movie and is part of the main timeline, but i think Jack and Oogie did meet again and fight before the movie takes place. It's up to us fan to piece together plot holes and timelines. I feel like games based off of movies always have to stretch out more in terms of story and dialogue because they have to focus so much on the gameplay, controls, and visuals more than the actual story, but especially with really old games like the nightmare before Christmas games. I just tend to notice a distinct lack of story value in certain PS2 and Gameboy games. It's not just Nightmare before Christmas, some of the early nickelodeon and Scooby-Doo game adaptations lack story as well.
I love lore, Halloween, and nightmare before Christmas and graphic novels so sign me up. Also Edgar slogan is definitely " let's Make Halloween town great again".
Aaaauggh! Now I can't un-think that!
And he's orange too. Nooo...😅 "MHGA"
oh no, why does this ring so true
"Insert spooky month reference here" 👍
I was thinking the same thing
I’m an aging curmudgeon presently exhausted by modern nostalgia mining. I respect the analysis here, as I do understand that this universe is deeply meaningful for a lot of people, but I can’t help but feel that the new book is basically glorified fan fiction and a callous cash grab to boot.
I just like lore and by extension good storytelling. Thank you for this! Hope you're all finding your joy.
well Jack and Boogie have quite of a history.even in movie mention of the name boogie boogie to Jack, anger jack fair bit
I always imagined that the people of the holiday towns aged slower than mortals.
Something not related to the canon that I wanted to mention, was how this story could change were Edgar not Edgar.
This story reads like a fable, a short fantasy of the past intended to teach about the present:
A story of two friends, each with a goal, and different approaches to their problems.
The first solves through use of what they are given, with only a single pair of hands.
The second, envious, sought advantageous shortcuts, even if was not meant for their hands.
While the sufficient competitor wasn’t able to be tempted…the role of power instead called to the jealous one, who pushed out their love of a friendship to make room for fuel of a desire,
A desire so weighted, that the jealous one saw only a loss so heavy that they no longer considered themself a friend, instead devoting their future to stealing this desire, instead.
Honestly I think the wind is a sentient thing as we hear them in "This Is Halloween" so I believe the wind is an old friend of Edgar's. It is similar to the grim reaper/death and does not interfere with the happenings of the town. At least that is what I believe.
If someone hands you a cup, and you drink from it, It's 100% YOUR FAULT.
People saying quotes it doesn’t need a prequel” can you shut the hell up. Give me all the nightmare before Christmas contents possible! But it has to be done, right. That means Disney stay away.
So he controls wind? I cant help but be reminded of the lyrics in the opening song "I am the wind blowing through your hair." Maybe Edgar still watches over the town in some way?
The wind isnt that far fetched if you think about it.
"I am the wind flowing through your hair". The whole song of this is halloween introduces citizens of halloween town and what their powers are if not just there for being scary/creepy
Love this
Sally's hair growing is the only non-mystery there; Dead bodies continue to have their hair grow long after death. It's how some of the first vampire myths arose.
Could be that Edgar is the "Who when you call who's there" or the voice of the wind in the 'This is Halloween' song, what with his seemingly unique control over wind
Considering that Edgar can control the winds, does that mean Edgar could be the line “I am the wind blowing through your hair”?
2:42 as I was watching this i found this to be an interesting question, I definitely think the Grim Reaper isnt in charge because honestly death isnt all that scary. Theres a ton of other ways your life can be ruined without you dying, and death would be a blessing during time of extreme horrors.
true, but he IS in charge of mortality isn’t he? someone being in charge of your life and death seems a bit scary to me.
I have watched this glorious movie over 1000 times. . . And I have never noticed death in the background.
It’s interesting to note that while Jack never displayed any sort of wind related powers, it could be argued that Oogie Boogie does, given his usage of a vacuum breath ability similar to Kirby.
My head canon is gonna be that the Pumpkin King is basically to Halloween what Santa is to Christmas, and whomever rules the holiday gets powers. In the video game, Jack gets fire powers when in the Pumpkin King form so maybe thats his equivalent of Edgar's "Wind" powers.