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I offer that there is some precedent toward Gaea "consuming" a planet. The plot of Dirge of Cerberus ultimately revolves around that when enough non-Jenova blood has been spilled, Gaea "gives up," concludes the situation is no longer tenable, summons a weapon, actively kills all remaining life to preserve what is left of good lifestream, and than travels the cosmos to find a new home for it. If Gaea can do that in Dirge, perhaps the Gi planet did the same?
This is consistent with your/everyone's "Jenova corrupted the Gi planet and came here, Jenova followed." That's literally the same "give up" plan that Gaea has in Dirge, after the planet concludes there is nothing left.
Yeah, after Dirge, the Life stream doesn't seem so good or natural. It seems like it travels the cosmos going to planets to gather souls. Even the "Promised Land" might be some soul depot. Also, the Life Stream can be used for energy, so maybe it has always had the purpose of harvesting souls to convert to energy at the Promised Land. Also also, maybe Jenova is a virus seeking vengeance for a previously harvested planet. She seems to be engineered to be a killing machine.
Also, it's worth noting that while both Biggs and Zack have connections to Cloud, both also have connections to Aerith as well. In Traces of Two Pasts, Biggs was a childhood friend of Aerith but he went by X at the time. As for Kyrie, she *also* has a connection to Aerith. "One day, Aerith told Kyrie to hurry home. Though disturbed by Aerith's otherworldly demeanor, Kyrie followed her advice and saw her parents' bodies carried in after being killed for stealing a man's wallet once she got there. From then on, Mireille raised the orphaned Kyrie."
Oh yeah we've covered Biggs and Aerith's connections on the channel before, although I did entirely forget about Kyrie's connection. It's a bit loose but the fact it exists makes Kyrie being in this scene much less sus.
41:27 What the Gi actually said was that they poured their hope and faith into the materia. That which they refer to as "the materia of peace" or the "purest of materia". Gi Nattack doesn't even call it the black materia until he gets to the point in his story where the Cetra trespassed on their land and stole the materia. At which point they chant "purest of materia no more, with pain and spite made black". Don't mean to nitpick, but I think that's an important detail. Because it suggests that the materia was made black when their hope and faith was turned to anger. Anger over the Cetra stealing their materia. This to me suggests that the Black Materia can be reverted back to it's pure state if the Gi's pain and spite can be remedied. This is where I think part 3 may incorporate a variable ending depending on whether or not you help the Gi. All of that said, I think their "purest of materia" was a protomateria which has the potential to become a white or black materia. The early concept art for the protomateria from Dirge resembles holy materia.
But I think it depends what their "Hope and faith" was. Hope for oblivion, faith this materia will give them their salvation. But i do get what you're saying and it's definitely possible, it just feels like the Gi have always wanted this oblivion since they arrived in Gaia or at least not long after.
@@Sector6UK I think it also depends on what they mean by "oblivion". Because that doesn't always mean destruction. It's actually more closely aligned with the concept of nothingness, or a void. So wanting to return to oblivion could be read as wanting to return to a formless state, or the void of outer space (cosmic lifestream?). In Cosmo Canyon, there are several murals, some of which depict the Gi with silhouettes that resemble outer space or a starry night sky. Their phrases like "purest of materia" also sound like references to the Prima Materia in alchemy - which they referenced on the Gi Mural in the TofA. The Prima Materia is a matter in it's purest form as it's in a primordial formless state as it originates from the creation of the universe. That which was believed to have been created from nothing (Creatio ex nihilo). With that in mind, the Proto Materia also fits this description. Especially given it's cosmic appearance. The Proto Materia's links to Omega and Chaos would parallel that of the White and Black materia. They may have even made this allusion when they named Weiss (white). Going back to the Gi's cosmic silhouettes, that could very well represent their hopes and dreams. That which they poured into the "purest of materia", and thus it originally looked like a proto materia. Once that was stolen by the Cetra, the materia turned black as a reflection of their pain and spite. Thus, returning it to them could change it back. The other thing about the Gi that sticks out to me is that despite their deep anger, they never once talk about destroying the planet or anything for that matter. That and they're not impossible to be reasoned with. And they have a deep respect for Seto and Nanaki. If they created something like a proto materia or a black materia, then it would suggest that they are higher beings than possibly that of the Cetra. This might explain why the Cetra might have wanted to steal it. The Cetra dabbling with the Gi's magic could have contributed to their downfall.
I am an o.g fan not only was ff7 my first game I played but also my favourite to this date I first played it when I was 6 and now my 32 year old ass will now always refer to bugenhagen as “unkie, buugy” cheers mate. We’re all loving these breakdowns dude I’ve seen them all over social media your channel is about to boom and it’s well earns, also based on your accent it sounds like your about 5 mins away from where I live which is cool, much love dude keep them coming I love your passion for this game
I'm pretty sure there is something to the Mother/Jenova thing. The Temple of the Ancients appears to show Minerva as the "Calamity from the Sky" on the mural. In Crisis Core, she the Minerva side mission was called "The Reigning Deity". The Shadowblood queen scene also seems to be alluding to both Minerva and Jenova being one and the same. Or strongly linked in some way.
Yeah it just feels a bit odd, like there definitely could be something to it. Minerva = Jenova is interesting as well, puts a slightly different slant on the Genesis stuff in CC.
@@Sector6UK Yeah, I was going to bring Genesis up. Specifically how the "Gift of the Goddess" was whatever would cure his degradation. Thus, the Gift of the Goddess was Jenova cells (S cells) throughout most of the story. It isn't until the very end that Genesis determines that Minerva's "heavenly boon" was the Gift. There's also the fact that Minerva dwells in the Northern Cave which and apparently the Banora underground leads there. Though I suppose it makes sense if the cave is at the centre of the planet. Because that means any point on the planet's surface would be the same distance from the cave. That said, this is something I have been thinking about for awhile. My hunch is that Jenova and Minerva are one and the same and that the role of the hero in LOVELESS might have a role in whether you get one or the other. Sephiroth was the first "hero" and he was raised believing that Jenova was his mother. There's probably something Jungian going on with that.
Awesome video! No worries about time constraints, these types of videos are all we have until part 3! Did you happen to hear the conversation right before the seminar from the NPC that talks about multiple world theory? She states.. “So... My parents are no longer with us here, but I believe they are still out there, on another plane” “I've been reading a bunch of theories about this alternate world in the hope of going there someday” “And over the course of my studies I came across a fascinating theory” “It addressed the issue of what the lifestream is, arguing that spiritual energy is actually a manifestation of our knowledge and memories” “Like I said it's a fascinating theory... But it's incomplete. What about our hopes and dreams? We remember those, don't we?” “So, what if spiritual energy doesn't distinguish between our real, lived memories and the unrealized desires buried deep within our hearts?” “What if coming into contact with that energy allowed us to "peer through the looking glass" so to speak?” “It's just an idea, but... I hope to find the truth someday” What are your thoughts about this? I was hoping to hear your theory
Yeah I realised I'd missed this one about half an hour after I'd published the video, lol. I think it very much leans in to the concept that these worlds can take on a variety of different forms, depending on how much they're built from memory and how much they're built from hopes and dreams. And I think it also leans in to the suggestion from the devs that we should look into things like the theory of collective unconscious and Yogocara Buddhism. It all becomes about perception determining what is actually real and what isn't and maybe if we shift our perception we shift what reality truly is (to us of course) It also leans in to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle a fair bit, which the whole Schrodingers Cat experiment probably best encapsulates. It's a much looser connection on that front, but again it all depends on perception and observation. I still have a very strong feeling that Chadley is the observer, gathering data to preserve the memories of Gaia, but thats a pretty crackpot theory still lol
Honestly, this went by in the blink of an eye. Don't worry about video length. There's a LOT to break down in this game and this was a long chapter. Keep up the great work!
My understanding is that the Japanese version of OG had Nanaki change the way he spoke when he got to Cosmo Canyon, so the vocal change is actual more in line with what the original intention of the game was. I mean, the first game didn't have the *best* translation accuracy. Also, I love that going forward Barrett never again calls Nanaki Red XIII going forward.
The Gi homeworld being "subsumed" makes me think of Final Fantasy IX. In that game, there was another world called Terra which was feeding off the souls of Gaia (the world most of the game's story takes place in), and once that process was complete Gaia would disappear and Terra would be able to rebuild itself... or something. I admit, my recollection of that game is hazy as it's been at least 20 years since I last played it. Anyway, we know that Final Fantasy loves to reference previous titles in the series, and there are certain key elements repeated in many of the stories (VII's Lifestream is similar to X's Farplane, for example), so this is my guess as to what was going on. Perhaps the Cetra aren't too different to Garland and Kuja, in that they were trying to sustain their world by draining life-energy from another planet. Maybe this was how they were going to create their "Promised Land"? It would certainly explain why Gi Nattak has such a low opinion of the Cetra, since his race wouldn't be too pleased about their world being harvested for its life energy.
@@Sector6UK I've seen a theory video which proposes that the crystals in IX, the materia in VII and the spheres/orbs in X are essentially the same thing, being directly connected to their planet's life energy. Just as all life on Gaia in IX comes from its crystal (which Kuja attempts to destroy at the end of the game), so all life on Gaia in VII must come from a giant materia which probably resides deep inside the Lifestream. This _may_ be the glowing orb we see briefly in the FMV sequence in the original game where Cloud's mind travels deep inside the planet, just before his final confrontation with Sephiroth. Make of that theory what you will. Personally, I like the idea that there's a giant crystal inside the Planet which is the "source" of the Lifestream. It makes sense since we've seen crystallised mako in the form of mako springs, so you'd think such a massive concentration of energy would exist in a condensed, solid state - i.e. a crystal.
Been thinking something similar, only I wonder if this Planet doesn't also have a crystal and the Life Stream has been slowly bleeding out souls from it, kind of like the Life Tree in FFIX and the mist being made of souls Actually, similar to the mist, the Life Stream poisons people. Would something naturally occuring really poison the indigenous life? Seems the only ones not affected are the Cetra, who seem to travel with the Life Stream or are at least somehow aware that it can do that.
Nah, man, keep talking. Ideas just pop up when you talk. Believe me, I listen to your videos to keep my lore interest floating. I haven’t had a single thought or theory in years. Lol. Dad brain can be awful. Trust me, this series helped me use my thinking skills again. So, yeah, thank you!
Can't help but think the Gi are gonna be used like The Dead Men of Dunharrow in Return of The King. Like a deal will be made with them to help out in some fashion. Maybe to fight/fend off a weapon? and in return they can join the lifestream or finally just die.
Explanation for Red's voice: When the party meets Red, he doesn't know them and is aggressive. Aerith touches him and restores his memories. He instantly relaxes, pauses for a second to assess, and begins talking. I think he was his older self during the last parts of Remake, but lost those memories when they went through the portal. He kept up the voice with everyone except Aerith who already knew about the memories and loosing them. They talk about it in Kalm I think. When they reach Cosmo Canyon, seeing his family again he drops all masking in his excitement. He then tries to mask again but ends up getting overwhelmed by his own feelings with what Aerith says.
Great work again, boss! Something about Cosmo Canyon that gives me chills: on the full vii timeline, Seto defeated the Gi in 1959. The same year Shinra Manufacturing discovered Mako energy. I don't know if that is coincidental, but now in Rebirth the Gi have created the Black Materia, and they are outsiders from another world or maybe another Planet. Is this a connection. Regarding the clear/black/white materia and the true counter part between worlds: in Sleepezi's Structure of Five part 2, he makes a well Ultimania backed up case that the true form of the Protomateria is the mysterious yellow orb we see in the Lifestream before dueling Sephiroth in the OG ending. So this concept might be older than we thought, in which case, well written in. "Steeped in our one desire... Purest of materia no more... with pain and spite made black." If there was a part of Cloud that truly believed he shouldn't exist, what horrible memory is driving this. Where does Cloud think he failed the worst, or what would be the worst thing Sephiroth ever did to him? Could there be a worse loss than Zack, and Aerith, and feeling like he failed Tifa? On that note I found a piece of lore in chapter 11 in an unexpected place. A subtle one that may be everything. Can't wait for your next one!
Yeah it definitely could be the protmateria is being woven in to the narrative a lot more than it ever has been before, and it would make sense. It's the core materia essentially, so it makes complete sense.
@@Sector6UK On the note of the Protomateria, I've been thinking on something. Dirge as a game functions a lot like a coda in the literary aspect. The final piece, often with a different character, and a new piece of information to give the story new context or challenge the context prior to it. This last story indicated to us that the troubles all begin and end with the removal and returning of the Protomateria to the Planet. If I remember correctly, its first primary purpose was to prevent the coming of the Advent, and secondary is the controlling of Omega and Chaos. Sometimes I interpret Genesis at the end awakening as 'Chaos Natural.' The vessel who will slowly over a span of lifetimes prepare the Planet for the true Omega's departure. They did give him a vampire-like voice in his Dirge lines, and Vincent sleeps in that coffin. Could Minerva have once been a Cetra who took on the role as the Goddess, an expression of the Lifestream, that would one day be 'Omega Natural?' I thought we saw Emerald without materia in both places near Minerva in CC, a possible indicator that she regulates the Weapons. Could the regulator be the intended ultimate vessel? What if the Planet's intention was never to destroy the virus, Jenova, but neutralize and integrate it into itself like the human body does a real virus? And if that were the case, couldn't have regulated the birth's of both Sephiroth and Cloud to be the catalysts that would move this process along? The Protomateria: the Planet's self-created vaccine? I know it's off topic, but I love a good lore dig/theory craft.
I do like the idea that Jenova was responsible for the Gi homeworld colliding into Gaia. Whether that be in the sense that she may have been one of the Gi herself, or as an entity that invaded their world and using it as a vessel to get onto Gaia. It would explain why the Cetra were not very "tolerable" as Gi Nattak put it; especially if it might have been a case where Jenova managed to convince the Gi that Gaia was responsible for absorbing their world. It would be a scenario in which neither side is necessarily "in the wrong", but Jenova is managing to play them against each other to accomplish her own goals.
It works well with stuff we already know about how the lifestream works etc. Jenova destroyed the Gi world, hijacked their version of Omega and then found Gaia, bringing remnants of the Gi with him.
When you were talking about the worlds and Aerith feeling Zack’s presence in the lifestream; the idea or fact that the world’s exist in the lifestream. Never thought of that… the edge of creation is probably outside even the lifestream. Sephiroth calls Cloud in the OG and takes him to that place. So Sephiroth probably ended up there.
Man, I was also shocked at how Bugenhagen was handled. He comes around in the end, but I really hope he gets a bit more character redemption in part 3 (maybe they're setting it up?) because he definitely didn't hit the notes I was hoping for. I absolutely love him in the OG, so I expected a similar fatherly/grandfatherly depiction where he's in the know with the planet. It felt so strange that he was mucking up the information. Anyway, another great breakdown, brother! I really enjoyed the expansion of the Gi's story and I can't wait to see see where they go with it in part 3. Don't worry about feeling like you're rambling, it comes across as very organic, imo. I would encourage you to be confident and just do your thing. We're here for it!
One of the things I though of when the Gi said that our star consumed theirs, was that they literally meant a star, as in a sun. That perhaps their sun and the planet's sun were in a binary system at one point, each with their own set of planets. Then the two stars merged, which affected the orbits of Gaia and the Gi's planet. Whether the Gi then somehow fled to Gaia, or their planet got too close and was consumed by Gaia, or something else entirely are all possibilities.
The Midgar where Zack is reminds me of the "Net//Sulm from the .Hack// series. A pocket world hidden from the system or in this case the lifestream or at least the lifestream black
Really amazing break down. You're really good at this! I like the new direction they have taken the Gi into. The idea that the Gi might be victims that have been inadvertently brought by Jenova which they don't mention but might have another name for. The only thing I wished they would have mentioned is Deneh.... where is she? I know in Before Crisis she had to go in stasis or some deep prayer after the planet appeasing Ritual which was way Red XIII didn't want to do the ritual to begin with which was before his capture by Shinra. I really also wished they had included Cobalt XIV and Indigo XV in the story whom they cut out of the original game. When it comes to Zack which is in the "Terrier World" the Beagle world as it stands seems to be the Prime world. I hope there ends up being a parallel universe... I actually kind of wished that was the Terrier Universe... with it actually being an alternate timeline of Zack surviving and the events of the planet playing out differently. Had it been, Biggs would not have known who Zack was in the terrier verse... and that tornado would not have happened... but instead Zack would have brought Cloud straight to sector 5 to find Aerith. and that's how the events would have begun to unfold. I think Cloud would have come to a shortly afterwards and the adventure would have started out with Zack and Aerith instead... yea it would have been a much different story. Who knows how the story with Avalanche would have went down.... with Tseng and Zack's relationship it would have altered the story greatly. Perhaps the story would have a duality, such as Zack training Cloud and their relationship and possibly meeting Tifa again. I really wonder how the Avalanche with Barret dynamic would have went down with Zack present? It would be an interesting alternate story to say the least.
Hey, glad you're enjoying the videos! I do think we still have time for more of these characters to pop up so I wouldn't completely rule it out, especially is we explore the "worlds" more in Pt 3. So I think a lot of things could be on the table as far as possibilities.
I understand why they did it. It gives those who haven't played the feel that he's just a kid. Of course the older more original players will be surprised, but the new people may not think about it. I didn't even really think about it once until you mentioned it. I was more shocked when cait sith was Scottish. I thought it was funny.😂
Definitely possible, not sure if the timescales for the belt to form would work in a real world scenario but in a fantasy RPG it could definitely work. Hmm, maybe Jenova did hijack the gi world, came to gaia and the remnants of the Gi world became the belt?
Do you think the main timeline Marlene is aware of this alternate version of herself? Maybe similar to the way Aerith is? What gives Cloud the ability to see into other timelines? Also, what was the purpose of saving Biggs (other than to give Zack someone to talk to) if only to kill him off at the end? My initial thought was, is there another timeline still where he survives? If not, then what was the point?
What doesn’t make sense to me is why would Seto allow Gi Nattak to try any influence the party to bring the black materia that would destroy the planet?
@@SenorSerpico doesn’t make sense. Gi Nattak - “Hey seto, I know you gave your life to protect the vale and your family. Is it ok if I now attempt to persuade your son to destroy all of that and more?” Seto - “yes” 🤷♂️
Yeah I already kinda think that tbh. Since Remake I had a feeling Sephiroth in the OG world had done something to mess with time and stuff. Then in Rebirth we learned that messing with fate creates new worlds (Or timelines as we were calling them then) and so my thinking changed to Sephiroth did something in the OG world to create a new world where Remake plays out. All in order to try and swing things back in his favour after getting stomped twice (OG and AC) When I saw the tear in the sky at the end of Rebirth I nearly lost it, lol
@@Sector6UK About the tear in the sky, I wonder... They did change the english translation of Aerith's line at the end of Remake to say: "The sky, I don't like it", could it be that she knew that this world was a "branch" all along? BTW, my own big brain theory is that if we're right and the Beagle world branched out of OG world, then the one who "created" it is not Sephiroth, but actually Cloud. Which could explain why Omni Sephiroth and Omni Aerith are competing over him instead of doing all the voodoo themselves
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I offer that there is some precedent toward Gaea "consuming" a planet. The plot of Dirge of Cerberus ultimately revolves around that when enough non-Jenova blood has been spilled, Gaea "gives up," concludes the situation is no longer tenable, summons a weapon, actively kills all remaining life to preserve what is left of good lifestream, and than travels the cosmos to find a new home for it. If Gaea can do that in Dirge, perhaps the Gi planet did the same?
This is consistent with your/everyone's "Jenova corrupted the Gi planet and came here, Jenova followed." That's literally the same "give up" plan that Gaea has in Dirge, after the planet concludes there is nothing left.
Yeah, after Dirge, the Life stream doesn't seem so good or natural. It seems like it travels the cosmos going to planets to gather souls. Even the "Promised Land" might be some soul depot.
Also, the Life Stream can be used for energy, so maybe it has always had the purpose of harvesting souls to convert to energy at the Promised Land.
Also also, maybe Jenova is a virus seeking vengeance for a previously harvested planet. She seems to be engineered to be a killing machine.
These are so good, man. Mega enjoying them.
Means a lot when the lore god himself is enjoying my stuff!
Also, it's worth noting that while both Biggs and Zack have connections to Cloud, both also have connections to Aerith as well. In Traces of Two Pasts, Biggs was a childhood friend of Aerith but he went by X at the time. As for Kyrie, she *also* has a connection to Aerith. "One day, Aerith told Kyrie to hurry home. Though disturbed by Aerith's otherworldly demeanor, Kyrie followed her advice and saw her parents' bodies carried in after being killed for stealing a man's wallet once she got there. From then on, Mireille raised the orphaned Kyrie."
Oh yeah we've covered Biggs and Aerith's connections on the channel before, although I did entirely forget about Kyrie's connection.
It's a bit loose but the fact it exists makes Kyrie being in this scene much less sus.
I like your idea of the purest materia being clear.
17:22 it reminded me of Advent Children, when the rain healed people with geostigma
41:27 What the Gi actually said was that they poured their hope and faith into the materia. That which they refer to as "the materia of peace" or the "purest of materia". Gi Nattack doesn't even call it the black materia until he gets to the point in his story where the Cetra trespassed on their land and stole the materia. At which point they chant "purest of materia no more, with pain and spite made black".
Don't mean to nitpick, but I think that's an important detail. Because it suggests that the materia was made black when their hope and faith was turned to anger. Anger over the Cetra stealing their materia. This to me suggests that the Black Materia can be reverted back to it's pure state if the Gi's pain and spite can be remedied. This is where I think part 3 may incorporate a variable ending depending on whether or not you help the Gi.
All of that said, I think their "purest of materia" was a protomateria which has the potential to become a white or black materia. The early concept art for the protomateria from Dirge resembles holy materia.
But I think it depends what their "Hope and faith" was.
Hope for oblivion, faith this materia will give them their salvation.
But i do get what you're saying and it's definitely possible, it just feels like the Gi have always wanted this oblivion since they arrived in Gaia or at least not long after.
@@Sector6UK I think it also depends on what they mean by "oblivion". Because that doesn't always mean destruction. It's actually more closely aligned with the concept of nothingness, or a void. So wanting to return to oblivion could be read as wanting to return to a formless state, or the void of outer space (cosmic lifestream?).
In Cosmo Canyon, there are several murals, some of which depict the Gi with silhouettes that resemble outer space or a starry night sky.
Their phrases like "purest of materia" also sound like references to the Prima Materia in alchemy - which they referenced on the Gi Mural in the TofA. The Prima Materia is a matter in it's purest form as it's in a primordial formless state as it originates from the creation of the universe. That which was believed to have been created from nothing (Creatio ex nihilo). With that in mind, the Proto Materia also fits this description. Especially given it's cosmic appearance. The Proto Materia's links to Omega and Chaos would parallel that of the White and Black materia. They may have even made this allusion when they named Weiss (white).
Going back to the Gi's cosmic silhouettes, that could very well represent their hopes and dreams. That which they poured into the "purest of materia", and thus it originally looked like a proto materia. Once that was stolen by the Cetra, the materia turned black as a reflection of their pain and spite. Thus, returning it to them could change it back.
The other thing about the Gi that sticks out to me is that despite their deep anger, they never once talk about destroying the planet or anything for that matter. That and they're not impossible to be reasoned with. And they have a deep respect for Seto and Nanaki. If they created something like a proto materia or a black materia, then it would suggest that they are higher beings than possibly that of the Cetra. This might explain why the Cetra might have wanted to steal it. The Cetra dabbling with the Gi's magic could have contributed to their downfall.
I am an o.g fan not only was ff7 my first game I played but also my favourite to this date I first played it when I was 6 and now my 32 year old ass will now always refer to bugenhagen as “unkie, buugy” cheers mate. We’re all loving these breakdowns dude I’ve seen them all over social media your channel is about to boom and it’s well earns, also based on your accent it sounds like your about 5 mins away from where I live which is cool, much love dude keep them coming I love your passion for this game
I'm pretty sure there is something to the Mother/Jenova thing. The Temple of the Ancients appears to show Minerva as the "Calamity from the Sky" on the mural. In Crisis Core, she the Minerva side mission was called "The Reigning Deity".
The Shadowblood queen scene also seems to be alluding to both Minerva and Jenova being one and the same. Or strongly linked in some way.
Yeah it just feels a bit odd, like there definitely could be something to it.
Minerva = Jenova is interesting as well, puts a slightly different slant on the Genesis stuff in CC.
@@Sector6UK Yeah, I was going to bring Genesis up. Specifically how the "Gift of the Goddess" was whatever would cure his degradation. Thus, the Gift of the Goddess was Jenova cells (S cells) throughout most of the story. It isn't until the very end that Genesis determines that Minerva's "heavenly boon" was the Gift.
There's also the fact that Minerva dwells in the Northern Cave which and apparently the Banora underground leads there. Though I suppose it makes sense if the cave is at the centre of the planet. Because that means any point on the planet's surface would be the same distance from the cave.
That said, this is something I have been thinking about for awhile. My hunch is that Jenova and Minerva are one and the same and that the role of the hero in LOVELESS might have a role in whether you get one or the other. Sephiroth was the first "hero" and he was raised believing that Jenova was his mother. There's probably something Jungian going on with that.
Kyrie showing up feels like showing this world isn't made up by (just) aerith hopes and dreams
I think it very well could be.
I enjoy your breakdown story. You got me re-playing the game all over again.
Love that!
Awesome video! No worries about time constraints, these types of videos are all we have until part 3!
Did you happen to hear the conversation right before the seminar from the NPC that talks about multiple world theory? She states..
“So... My parents are no longer with us here, but I believe they are still out there, on another plane”
“I've been reading a bunch of theories about this alternate world in the hope of going there someday”
“And over the course of my studies I came across a fascinating theory”
“It addressed the issue of what the lifestream is, arguing that spiritual energy is actually a manifestation of our knowledge and memories”
“Like I said it's a fascinating theory... But it's incomplete. What about our hopes and dreams? We remember those, don't we?”
“So, what if spiritual energy doesn't distinguish between our real, lived memories and the unrealized desires buried deep within our hearts?”
“What if coming into contact with that energy allowed us to "peer through the looking glass" so to speak?”
“It's just an idea, but... I hope to find the truth someday”
What are your thoughts about this? I was hoping to hear your theory
Yeah I realised I'd missed this one about half an hour after I'd published the video, lol.
I think it very much leans in to the concept that these worlds can take on a variety of different forms, depending on how much they're built from memory and how much they're built from hopes and dreams.
And I think it also leans in to the suggestion from the devs that we should look into things like the theory of collective unconscious and Yogocara Buddhism.
It all becomes about perception determining what is actually real and what isn't and maybe if we shift our perception we shift what reality truly is (to us of course)
It also leans in to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle a fair bit, which the whole Schrodingers Cat experiment probably best encapsulates.
It's a much looser connection on that front, but again it all depends on perception and observation.
I still have a very strong feeling that Chadley is the observer, gathering data to preserve the memories of Gaia, but thats a pretty crackpot theory still lol
Thank you! Can’t wait to listen later this evening. Helps me get through the Friday work night!
Enjoy!
Honestly, this went by in the blink of an eye. Don't worry about video length. There's a LOT to break down in this game and this was a long chapter. Keep up the great work!
Thanks and yeah, I just get conscious that if it's too big it could put people off!
But then i start rambling and the vids end up huge, lmao 😂 😂
I second this. I enjoyed the video. The length didn't put me off at all.
My understanding is that the Japanese version of OG had Nanaki change the way he spoke when he got to Cosmo Canyon, so the vocal change is actual more in line with what the original intention of the game was. I mean, the first game didn't have the *best* translation accuracy. Also, I love that going forward Barrett never again calls Nanaki Red XIII going forward.
It just feels super jarring in game.
"I HAVE to keep this video under an hour or people won't watch it"... 😂😂 You're funny Kupo
I just rambled on for so long, lmao 😂 😂
Chapter 10! Almost there. Well done man. Love the videos.
So close! Thank you for sticking with the series!
The Gi homeworld being "subsumed" makes me think of Final Fantasy IX. In that game, there was another world called Terra which was feeding off the souls of Gaia (the world most of the game's story takes place in), and once that process was complete Gaia would disappear and Terra would be able to rebuild itself... or something. I admit, my recollection of that game is hazy as it's been at least 20 years since I last played it.
Anyway, we know that Final Fantasy loves to reference previous titles in the series, and there are certain key elements repeated in many of the stories (VII's Lifestream is similar to X's Farplane, for example), so this is my guess as to what was going on. Perhaps the Cetra aren't too different to Garland and Kuja, in that they were trying to sustain their world by draining life-energy from another planet. Maybe this was how they were going to create their "Promised Land"? It would certainly explain why Gi Nattak has such a low opinion of the Cetra, since his race wouldn't be too pleased about their world being harvested for its life energy.
That's a very good point actually, maybe there are more parallels between the two.
@@Sector6UK I've seen a theory video which proposes that the crystals in IX, the materia in VII and the spheres/orbs in X are essentially the same thing, being directly connected to their planet's life energy. Just as all life on Gaia in IX comes from its crystal (which Kuja attempts to destroy at the end of the game), so all life on Gaia in VII must come from a giant materia which probably resides deep inside the Lifestream. This _may_ be the glowing orb we see briefly in the FMV sequence in the original game where Cloud's mind travels deep inside the planet, just before his final confrontation with Sephiroth.
Make of that theory what you will. Personally, I like the idea that there's a giant crystal inside the Planet which is the "source" of the Lifestream. It makes sense since we've seen crystallised mako in the form of mako springs, so you'd think such a massive concentration of energy would exist in a condensed, solid state - i.e. a crystal.
Been thinking something similar, only I wonder if this Planet doesn't also have a crystal and the Life Stream has been slowly bleeding out souls from it, kind of like the Life Tree in FFIX and the mist being made of souls
Actually, similar to the mist, the Life Stream poisons people. Would something naturally occuring really poison the indigenous life? Seems the only ones not affected are the Cetra, who seem to travel with the Life Stream or are at least somehow aware that it can do that.
Great video, felt like 15 minutes. Thank you for the effort
Thank you for watching!
Not keeping it under an hour, lol. I’m upset if the video is short. 😂 keeping them coming!
I just kept talking 😂 😂
Nah, man, keep talking. Ideas just pop up when you talk. Believe me, I listen to your videos to keep my lore interest floating. I haven’t had a single thought or theory in years. Lol. Dad brain can be awful. Trust me, this series helped me use my thinking skills again. So, yeah, thank you!
Can't help but think the Gi are gonna be used like The Dead Men of Dunharrow in Return of The King.
Like a deal will be made with them to help out in some fashion. Maybe to fight/fend off a weapon? and in return they can join the lifestream or finally just die.
"Bad idea. Very handy in a tight spot, these lads. Despite the fact they're dead."
- Gimli. Or Barret, possibly. XD
Explanation for Red's voice:
When the party meets Red, he doesn't know them and is aggressive. Aerith touches him and restores his memories. He instantly relaxes, pauses for a second to assess, and begins talking. I think he was his older self during the last parts of Remake, but lost those memories when they went through the portal. He kept up the voice with everyone except Aerith who already knew about the memories and loosing them. They talk about it in Kalm I think.
When they reach Cosmo Canyon, seeing his family again he drops all masking in his excitement. He then tries to mask again but ends up getting overwhelmed by his own feelings with what Aerith says.
This almost makes it tolerable.
Great work again, boss!
Something about Cosmo Canyon that gives me chills: on the full vii timeline, Seto defeated the Gi in 1959. The same year Shinra Manufacturing discovered Mako energy. I don't know if that is coincidental, but now in Rebirth the Gi have created the Black Materia, and they are outsiders from another world or maybe another Planet. Is this a connection.
Regarding the clear/black/white materia and the true counter part between worlds: in Sleepezi's Structure of Five part 2, he makes a well Ultimania backed up case that the true form of the Protomateria is the mysterious yellow orb we see in the Lifestream before dueling Sephiroth in the OG ending. So this concept might be older than we thought, in which case, well written in.
"Steeped in our one desire... Purest of materia no more... with pain and spite made black." If there was a part of Cloud that truly believed he shouldn't exist, what horrible memory is driving this. Where does Cloud think he failed the worst, or what would be the worst thing Sephiroth ever did to him? Could there be a worse loss than Zack, and Aerith, and feeling like he failed Tifa? On that note I found a piece of lore in chapter 11 in an unexpected place. A subtle one that may be everything.
Can't wait for your next one!
Yeah it definitely could be the protmateria is being woven in to the narrative a lot more than it ever has been before, and it would make sense.
It's the core materia essentially, so it makes complete sense.
@@Sector6UK On the note of the Protomateria, I've been thinking on something.
Dirge as a game functions a lot like a coda in the literary aspect. The final piece, often with a different character, and a new piece of information to give the story new context or challenge the context prior to it.
This last story indicated to us that the troubles all begin and end with the removal and returning of the Protomateria to the Planet. If I remember correctly, its first primary purpose was to prevent the coming of the Advent, and secondary is the controlling of Omega and Chaos.
Sometimes I interpret Genesis at the end awakening as 'Chaos Natural.' The vessel who will slowly over a span of lifetimes prepare the Planet for the true Omega's departure. They did give him a vampire-like voice in his Dirge lines, and Vincent sleeps in that coffin.
Could Minerva have once been a Cetra who took on the role as the Goddess, an expression of the Lifestream, that would one day be 'Omega Natural?' I thought we saw Emerald without materia in both places near Minerva in CC, a possible indicator that she regulates the Weapons. Could the regulator be the intended ultimate vessel?
What if the Planet's intention was never to destroy the virus, Jenova, but neutralize and integrate it into itself like the human body does a real virus? And if that were the case, couldn't have regulated the birth's of both Sephiroth and Cloud to be the catalysts that would move this process along? The Protomateria: the Planet's self-created vaccine?
I know it's off topic, but I love a good lore dig/theory craft.
I do like the idea that Jenova was responsible for the Gi homeworld colliding into Gaia. Whether that be in the sense that she may have been one of the Gi herself, or as an entity that invaded their world and using it as a vessel to get onto Gaia. It would explain why the Cetra were not very "tolerable" as Gi Nattak put it; especially if it might have been a case where Jenova managed to convince the Gi that Gaia was responsible for absorbing their world. It would be a scenario in which neither side is necessarily "in the wrong", but Jenova is managing to play them against each other to accomplish her own goals.
It works well with stuff we already know about how the lifestream works etc.
Jenova destroyed the Gi world, hijacked their version of Omega and then found Gaia, bringing remnants of the Gi with him.
Rebirth made the Cosmo Canyon sages into essential oil salesmen
"GET YOUR BOTTLE OF BUGENHAGEN BUBBLEBATH HERE!!!"
When you were talking about the worlds and Aerith feeling Zack’s presence in the lifestream; the idea or fact that the world’s exist in the lifestream. Never thought of that… the edge of creation is probably outside even the lifestream. Sephiroth calls Cloud in the OG and takes him to that place. So Sephiroth probably ended up there.
Enjoying your breakdowns. Still finishing off side stuff, such a good game, game of the decade for me.
Man, I was also shocked at how Bugenhagen was handled. He comes around in the end, but I really hope he gets a bit more character redemption in part 3 (maybe they're setting it up?) because he definitely didn't hit the notes I was hoping for. I absolutely love him in the OG, so I expected a similar fatherly/grandfatherly depiction where he's in the know with the planet. It felt so strange that he was mucking up the information.
Anyway, another great breakdown, brother! I really enjoyed the expansion of the Gi's story and I can't wait to see see where they go with it in part 3.
Don't worry about feeling like you're rambling, it comes across as very organic, imo. I would encourage you to be confident and just do your thing. We're here for it!
45:15: FF9, that you?
One of the things I though of when the Gi said that our star consumed theirs, was that they literally meant a star, as in a sun. That perhaps their sun and the planet's sun were in a binary system at one point, each with their own set of planets. Then the two stars merged, which affected the orbits of Gaia and the Gi's planet. Whether the Gi then somehow fled to Gaia, or their planet got too close and was consumed by Gaia, or something else entirely are all possibilities.
The Midgar where Zack is reminds me of the "Net//Sulm from the .Hack// series. A pocket world hidden from the system or in this case the lifestream or at least the lifestream black
Really amazing break down. You're really good at this!
I like the new direction they have taken the Gi into. The idea that the Gi might be victims that have been inadvertently brought by Jenova which they don't mention but might have another name for.
The only thing I wished they would have mentioned is Deneh.... where is she? I know in Before Crisis she had to go in stasis or some deep prayer after the planet appeasing Ritual which was way Red XIII didn't want to do the ritual to begin with which was before his capture by Shinra. I really also wished they had included Cobalt XIV and Indigo XV in the story whom they cut out of the original game.
When it comes to Zack which is in the "Terrier World" the Beagle world as it stands seems to be the Prime world.
I hope there ends up being a parallel universe...
I actually kind of wished that was the Terrier Universe... with it actually being an alternate timeline of Zack surviving and the events of the planet playing out differently. Had it been, Biggs would not have known who Zack was in the terrier verse... and that tornado would not have happened... but instead Zack would have brought Cloud straight to sector 5 to find Aerith. and that's how the events would have begun to unfold. I think Cloud would have come to a shortly afterwards and the adventure would have started out with Zack and Aerith instead... yea it would have been a much different story. Who knows how the story with Avalanche would have went down.... with Tseng and Zack's relationship it would have altered the story greatly.
Perhaps the story would have a duality, such as Zack training Cloud and their relationship and possibly meeting Tifa again. I really wonder how the Avalanche with Barret dynamic would have went down with Zack present? It would be an interesting alternate story to say the least.
Hey, glad you're enjoying the videos!
I do think we still have time for more of these characters to pop up so I wouldn't completely rule it out, especially is we explore the "worlds" more in Pt 3.
So I think a lot of things could be on the table as far as possibilities.
I understand why they did it. It gives those who haven't played the feel that he's just a kid. Of course the older more original players will be surprised, but the new people may not think about it. I didn't even really think about it once until you mentioned it. I was more shocked when cait sith was Scottish. I thought it was funny.😂
Bugenhagen was the metaphor for the Red Herring Gang.
Also also, what if the Gi planet is what became the asteroid belt?
Definitely possible, not sure if the timescales for the belt to form would work in a real world scenario but in a fantasy RPG it could definitely work.
Hmm, maybe Jenova did hijack the gi world, came to gaia and the remnants of the Gi world became the belt?
Do you think the main timeline Marlene is aware of this alternate version of herself? Maybe similar to the way Aerith is? What gives Cloud the ability to see into other timelines?
Also, what was the purpose of saving Biggs (other than to give Zack someone to talk to) if only to kill him off at the end? My initial thought was, is there another timeline still where he survives? If not, then what was the point?
I don't think she is tbh, we've not actually seen the main timeline versions of them since Remake I don't think so we have no idea.
What doesn’t make sense to me is why would Seto allow Gi Nattak to try any influence the party to bring the black materia that would destroy the planet?
I guess there could be some kind of meta thing where it’s like “I want you to understand what this is” etc. but it just seems a little odd.
Talking is talking. He asked but doesn’t mean they will get their oblivion.
@@SenorSerpico doesn’t make sense.
Gi Nattak - “Hey seto, I know you gave your life to protect the vale and your family. Is it ok if I now attempt to persuade your son to destroy all of that and more?”
Seto - “yes” 🤷♂️
You keep saying “when the beagle world was created” (43:10). Did you mean “the terrier world”? Or is this intentional? 🤭
No I just messed my words up because I'm dumb 😂 😂
@@Sector6UK Could be a rad theory tho... What if the beagle world was also created by a breach of fate?
Yeah I already kinda think that tbh.
Since Remake I had a feeling Sephiroth in the OG world had done something to mess with time and stuff.
Then in Rebirth we learned that messing with fate creates new worlds (Or timelines as we were calling them then) and so my thinking changed to Sephiroth did something in the OG world to create a new world where Remake plays out.
All in order to try and swing things back in his favour after getting stomped twice (OG and AC)
When I saw the tear in the sky at the end of Rebirth I nearly lost it, lol
@@Sector6UK About the tear in the sky, I wonder... They did change the english translation of Aerith's line at the end of Remake to say: "The sky, I don't like it", could it be that she knew that this world was a "branch" all along?
BTW, my own big brain theory is that if we're right and the Beagle world branched out of OG world, then the one who "created" it is not Sephiroth, but actually Cloud. Which could explain why Omni Sephiroth and Omni Aerith are competing over him instead of doing all the voodoo themselves
That would be very cool, I suppose there could be other possibilities as well like Genesis?