Yetholm spearhead (and bronze age shields)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2014
- Mick Skelly presents his idea that the Yetholm spearhead may have been a bronze age equivalent of a partizan, and I stand there in an ill-fitting shirt waiting to butt in every now and then.
This one is a bit long, because the stuff about shields is so mixed in with the partizan stuff, that I decided not to try to separate it, and instead include the whole ramble.
Spearhead cast by Neil Burridge.
Desolate wind noise in place of music, by special request.
www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
Well, you know the old saying...
If it looks like a medieval partisan and it quacks like a medieval partisan, than it probably is a medieval partisan.
The dwemer make some pretty cool spears... I thought they went extinct tho... pretty cool you found a living one willing to share his knowledge of the craft of smithing
That's no shield, it's clearly a ride cymbal. Bronze Age grooving was going on.
megabell
not too wrong, they invested a lot of money in big bronze horned instruments so why not drums too
The ray Charles orchestra never trailed too far behind the main host army.
sure I've seen Moondog with one of those
How do you say “bwow-chika-bwow-bwoouwwww” in Celtic?
And I thought mini-bosses were invented by Nintendo!
For a minute there I thought u were referring to the mini-boss on the left, this was very interesting sirs. Cheers.
OH MY GOD YES! I asked lindy to end the video with wind over the plains blowing tumbleweed and he did it! THANK YOU!
Happy to oblige, although I confess I stopped short of travelling to the plains to record the sound. It's just me whistling into a microphone.
Lindybeige are you really tall or is your friend quite shirt or both
He is quite shirt.
you mad lad
omg, that thing is absolutely beautiful, look almost fantasy even. Bronze weapons are so damn beautiful.
Drinking game: Have a shot every time you hear the phrase Medieval Partisan
oh my god, the padawan and the jedi master!
where did you find a legit dwarven smith lol
Looks like it, but Lindy is just like 6,4 or something.
Looks more like a gnomish smith, but that's just me. A very tall, gnomish smith.
I got more of a hobbit vibe cx
@@oz_jones It’s a dwarf, dwarfs have northern English accents
@@MrFLAIMEBRAINE777 find me a hobbit with facial hair!
Well I know I should have expected partisan arguments on the internet... but not *_literally!!!_*
The holes look like a nice spot to tie some sort of fancy flashy decoration to.
That’s what I thought.
I love the discussion between two knowledgeable chaps.
how tall are you lloyd? good lord...
Quite ludicrously, and I'm sure it's my fault. One thing made clear by this video is that off-the peg shirts don't fit me. By the time I find one that can cope with my sleeve length and collar size, its makers have assumed that the wearer must be very fat.
Lindybeige
try buying "slim" shirts, they are reasonably wide for tall people with normal weight.
Lindybeige I have the opposite problem. I'm quite short, so I end up with sleeves that billow out like I'm a Spanish pirate whose shirt is too big. Express seems to be the only company that cares about us little guys, maybe their president is short too.
+Lindybeige As a poorly educated idiot from the Netherlands, a lot of the time I cannot help but adore your exact choice of words in the English langauge. It has such a curiously calming effect on me.
+Lindybeige But you're so good with a needle and thread, why not turn the extra fabric into darts or vents or other methods of slimming up the shirt?
I think there's also the distinct possibility that someone in the Bronze Age thought the weapon was kind of cool looking and figured he'd give it a go. Others may well have followed on no more intelligent a basis and so you end up with artifacts without an extensive rational reason to exist.
I agree. Sometimes, a lot of things have no real purpose. It's a fallacy that people follow what's rational and correct. If this was true, then we would have discovered modern medicine quite a long time ago. Sometimes, the selection force isn't strong enough to weed useless things out.
E.g:You train in an ineffective martial art, but you train so much that you're better than the average peasant. You fight peasant/recruit armies, and pass down your useless techniques anyway.
People follow certain habits anyway because the top guy is doing it - or you're just following others for no good reason.
Right, A spear head the size of a small sword certainly looks more intimidating then the average spear head of the time.
It is nice to have two experts on the video to do a lot of the discussion for us. And by us I mean of course the people who could actually properly debate and not me.
Protrusions from spears had several purpouses:
1) preventing the the shaft from penetrating too deep (slows you down, worst case: gets stuck)
2) accentuating a blow (like axe or hammer)
both are possible here, but for longer protrusions:
3) blocking strikes (when you slide the shaft down so that you are holding it at the head)
3) hooking attacks (behind shields or parries; or pulling legs and cutting them)
4) pushing attacks (easier to hit than with a pure thrusting point; adds slicing effect)
5) trapping of blades or limbs (there were some weird, fork-like shapes for that, but not very successful)
From the suppressed hostility in this video, I get the impression that they had a small duel after filming
That is a really beautiful spearhead. I like the dual approach of this video, too. I appreciate the other gentleman's approach.
It sounds like it's a lot like a medieval partizan.
i'm convinced it was used in a similar fashion to the medieval partizan.
Edd360
It's conceivable that it could be used both for slashing and thrusting, not unlike a medieval partisan.
RBuckminsterFuller partizan
I have taken 4 years to contemplate the use of this spear and I have come up with a theory that it was used much like a medieval partizan.
Regarding the shields: It has always seemed to me that those bronze shields represent a hell of a lot of work on the part of a smith for something that is simply going to be tossed into a bog as a sacrifice to some god, or that is going to be used purely as a chieftain's parade item or some such.
The "Yetholm shields" are certainly made of quite thin bronze - about 0.6mm thick, some references say. But that bronze is doubled over and thickened considerably around the rim, as well as being hammer-hardened there. And the same happens with all those ridges and the little bosses between them.
Furthermore, while none of these shields have been found with any kind of WOOD liner, at least one was recovered with the remnants of a LEATHER liner.
They are all between 18 and 24 inches wide -- which is about the same width as an Indo-Persian dhal made of hippo hide or later of steel, and is also about the same width as one of the bigger Renaissance steel bucklers. I see no reason why these ones couldn't be used quite effectively with the same sort of 'edge forward' shield tactics used in I.33 -- or for that matter in Viking sword-and-shield. You rarely 'block' a sword strike 'flat on' with your shield in any of those systems; the shield is usually 'shedding' the blows at an angle and is in motion itself.
In short, I do not believe that the earlier "tests" where a shield - made of weaker hammered copper in the first place - was 'cut in half' by a direct strike with a hard-swung bronze sword while the shield was locked in place necessarily demonstrate anything about the true utility of these shields in combat.
I loved this! I enjoyed the increased length of the video as well as the varied subjects and back/forth between yourself and Mr. Skelly. I personally prefer these longwinded rambles of yours, the ideas flow well into each other.
I honestly did not expect you to be this tall.
Fenrir It's a combination of him being tall and the man being short.
@@josephstalin9939 I have the feeling that the old man is of average height (which in the UK is what? 5'8, 5'9)
How do you know how tall he is?the short guy even has a dwarf voice, he could be four feet tall for all we know
Practical or not, that spearhead sure looks both impressive and elegant.
I would love there being this kind of living discussion in more of your clips in the future. Really nice to see two different viewpoints at once.
Have you considered filming yourself trying out these weapons? Several times now you've referenced how they feel in handling, and it would be interesting to see that in action.
Also, great guest. While it seemed as if you were both a bit timid, trying not to step on each others' toes, the mild discussion that emerged was still worthwhile. I'd love to see more guests brought on for debates.
Father and son with the same style shirts ! Awesome
Kenny Hempson nice longbord wheels
thanks there shark wheels :)
Mick looks like Dori form the new Hobbit films.
Lindy it's nice to see you discussing with another person who is equally knowledgeable as you on these things, wonderful work! Two heads always produce interesting theories. I hope to see more of these in the future.
Thoroughly enjoyed this, more differing opinions! More guests! :D
I agree. :)
Nice to see Mike's spear again. Nice vid
I'd like to see some more videos of you speaking about archeological mambo-jumbo with Mick. You're making a great duet! Love the video.
@ 2:45
I would add that the tests done decades ago were also done with copper replicas.
Copper is way softer than bronze.
The very first thing I do every time I'm on youtube is to check this channel, see that he hasn't made any new videos and say out loud to myself: "oh come on, Lloyd!"
That is a beautiful spear head. very nice.
We need more videos of this length and depth!
I love it when your videos are the perfect length for me to watch during dinner :)
Also you seem VERY tall!
I am sure this sets the world record for saying "medieval party zan" the most times in 30 seconds.
Well done- as always
I like the alternate hypotheses! Really gives me something to think about.
I like this video a lot. It's a good example of how history works in general. "Well, if you are doing X with Y, then it could be used in this way." "No, I think they are doing Z with something a little like Y, but not the same."
I love that we have absolutely no idea what this really is, who used it and for what reason. Then 3000 years later, two blokes stand in a house and have an interesting discussion about how it could basically be almost anything.
those videos are very intresting. thanks for uploading!
I wonder if a somewhat flimsy bronze shield might have been designed to allow weapons to penetrate it to some degree, snagging the weapon so that the attacker would be temporarily disarmed.
If that were the case surely it would be cheaper and more efficient to have a hide shield for the purpose of snagging a weapon, nay?
TheSirPrise
I don't know, it is a complex question. I suppose it depends on how well the hdd shields snags a weapon and how well a bronze one does. It does seem reasonable though.
TheSirPrise nay, bronze could be recycled or smithed back whilst the hide would be thrown away.
Geroskop The cost of melting down and recasting the bronze is far too expensive when compared to using a different hide.
This video is especially interesting because you have two different, plausible views in it. That's the impression I got from a lot of your videos: You have great ideas and, given that I have no experience what so ever with any of the topics you cover (in fact I never was particularly good in history), I'm very inclined to believe what you say, but I do wonder what other theories are out there. And what subset of them is plausible. I would love to have more discussion-type videos where you have one or two other knowledgeable persons talking alongside you.
That being said, one the best parts about your videos arguably is the often subtle humor. I have a short chuckle through most of them, especially at the end. It's possible that such humor is harder to do with other people who may or may not share the same talent for humor. So given that that is a risk from multi-person-discussions (this video was one of your less funny ones) doing both kinds is great.
Great video as usual, I'm not sure if the dynamic really worked with Mick but it was a cool change of things.
Partizan, boar spear, Bohemian ear spoon or ox-tongue, it´s a spear bladed weapon that handles like a halberd.
I did quite a bit of study on the Tain at one point, and seem to recall mention of heavybladed fighting spears being part of the wargear of a chariot cheiftan. That was the first thing that I thought of when I watched this.
The night after watching this is occurred to me that maybe these two are forgetting that people used spears for hunting as well(and probably more) as killing each other and that this spear looks very very similar to a boar spear, a long heavy head that widens to the base to cause as much bleeding and trauma as possible so you can put down a very tough beast.
I thought of a boar spear as well. The holes could hold wooden "ears" that could prevent the boar from running up the spear. It may have been too difficult or to heavy to cast the ears?
thedeadpawns Yea also we have to remember that each and every spear made would have been made by a family of smiths with the knowledge passed down through the generations each time being innovated and changed so small adaptations become big parts of the form just because dad did it and that's the way it is done because it worked.
thedeadpawns Bronze was expensive. Better to make do with wood when you can.
I don't think the bulge on the blade is abrupt enough to stop a boar running down the shaft and into you. If you look at boar spears, they all have a cross guard arrangement below the blade.
@ bren cav. That is of course pure speculation. How do you know there were families of smiths. I would love to see historical evidence of that.
I really like the back-and-forth element, makes it more clear how much of history is really just our best guess. That shield design looks incredibly elaborate. Would very much enjoy hearing more about its construction and theory about use (if used it was). Perhaps in a way similar to a viking-era linden shield? Those don't seem to stand up to much punishment, either, if you just stand there and take a blow on it. But I would imagine those are much lighter.
I like this Skelly fellow.
Lloyd looks very unnerved with that spear pointed at him, id be too!
I didn't know Lindy had an in house hobbit
I have heard that the reconstructed bronze age shields that were used in experimental archaeology in the 20th century were cut easily because they were the more thinner ones that have been reconstructed and tested (0,3-0,4 mm thick only). The ones tested recently by an archaeologist named Barry Molloy where around 1 mm of thickness and they proved much more durable.
useful spear against cavalry
but against infantry what you could do is jab at the enemy's neck, or their legs or something so that even if you overshoot you just press the thing against their exposed spots (your decision based on the situation) and then pull back with a blade like that slicing into unarmored flesh at certain locations (bronze age) - slicing them as you retreat back a step or two or whatever - it won't get stuck! and armored opponents are slower so you're more likely able to tire out/hit dead on with a spear thrust - or even slightly hooking them as you pull a bit less heavily, and push way more heavily to the side at the same time, so that it catches ever so slightly to aide the push you exert on it (while at the same time discouraging them from trying to push you the same way unless they grab the thing but how likely is that when they've got the sharp and pointy end and you have the blunt end
adaptability! all it takes is a slight shift in footing and a hip rotation
or you could do the 1-2 steps back slice routine as it slides across them
I like Speakman's idea of a wooden-handled sword. Lots of options for grip shape and length, pommel design, etc. I think you could have a lot of fun exploring this possibility.
With a 4 foot shaft and a nice counter weight skull-crusher end cap on it you could really raise hell with that thing.
IIRC part of the problem that the Britons had fighting the Romans was that they used quite large swords designed for a more spread out battlefield rather than the crowded in close quarters brawls the Romans loved so very much. It seems that their style of warfare would have bee a lot more scattered, a lot more open terrain and individual fighting than large formation based combat and in that sort of situation something like a partisan would be very useful.
incredibly interesting, thanks!
The shield would have been quit the status symbol. At a time when metal was hard to come by having something as obviously resource intensive as a bronze shield would have marked the bearer as a king.
Is there a possibility that the two holes could have been used to mount a kind of colourful tail? It could be used like Chinese spears that have this to distract the opponent. Just a suggestion of course.
Very nice, Please do more together with Mr Skelly!
That is a spea- parti- pointy thing on a stick I would not want to find myself on the wrong side of.
Lindy where did you find a hobbit?
Hi Lindy...
The Assegai or IziJula was the Zulu throwing spear. The shorter stabbing spear was called an Iklwa. I believe it was called this because of the sound it made when disembowling anyone unfortunate to be on the pointy end of it.
Whatever the actual historic use of that thing might have been I can tell you that I would truly wet myself, were someone coming at me with it and waving it like a quarterstaff. That could be quite a wicked slash and thrust weapon, especially against lightly armoured opponents.
WHY THE FUCK DO YOU NOT HAVE YOUR OWN TV SHOW FOR THIS?! TIME TEAM EAT YOUR HEART OUT, THIS SHIT IS THE BEST!
That thing is like a short sword on a stick.
I think a better term would be a pike for it specifically.
Darkninja282 Pikes have very not-fancy straight blades for stabbing things. This is noticeably different.
...it would make an extremely effect short sword, like a make shift Dirk should the quarterstaff break. Maybe? Beautiful example though.
Sure but calling it a short sword on the end of a stick isn't a good thing to call it and it doesn't have a cross section so the other isn't a possibility. Can't call it a glaive because its not curved. could call it a heavy spear or pike I guess.
An assegai is a type of light javelin from South Africa. The iklwa is the short stabbing and slashing spear developed by Shaka Zulu for close quarters combat. Two very distinct weapons.
Looks more like a double-edged glaive. They are popular amongst viking "Re-enactment, battle ready and live steel" enthusiasts here. Those I have seen is about 2.2m, so just higher than the wielders head. It is really effective in a 1v1 situation, because you are not safe after you have gotten pass the spear tip. The wider middle part gives it a cutting edge when you pull your spear backwards. It is heavier, but can cut as well as thrust.
My guess is that if this spearhead was used in a cavalry unit, the expanded bulge in the blade could allow the blade to "cut itself free" if it became imbeded in chain, light armor, or flesh, allowing the wielder to remove the weapon without having to circle back to retrieve it. It would make use of forward motion to cut outwards. Cavalry use could explain why the pole was so heavy, however I have no idea if cavalry was even popular in the time and place of this spearhead.
The holes in the Yetholm spear would make a nice place to tie togheter a lot of decoration, just think about how much meaner and bigger that would make the spear look.
Decoration, or possibly something of dual decorative and utilitarian nature, like the tassles on chines 'dragon spears' (no idea if that's more than pop culture, but you should know the type)- Perhaps some felted wool, or cord, tied around it to both look cool and to help soak up any blood that might flow down from a wound. Or it could have been used to tie bundles of poisonous herbs or something. Who knows?
that is a nice shirt lloyd
The shape suggests an attempt to balance chopping, cutting, and thrusting.
It looks like a compromise weapon crossing a glaive/bardiche with a spear in a similar way that a kopeche crosses an axe with a sword.
The curves look just big enough to be useful for moving shield edges/weapon hafts to make openings (and also concentrate the force of a swing) without being libel to get caught on anything.
I see it's use as 2-handed, ~45% chop, 45% thrust, & 10% slice but with wide variation for situation and personal style. Also, for that use, a 6ft(~2m) shaft of that weight seems appropriate. (which should be short enough to help offset the weight of the head, where a longer haft would only magnify the problem, even if it were lighter)
Btw, if that description of use isn't clear, look up "sca glaive"; the fighting-style I'm referring to isn't entirely unlike what you're likely to find there (though will be a but different as it was probably used against/with much lighter armor than you'll see). Actually, most sca polearm styles seem better suited to this weapon than a true glaive by my eyes.
I'm curious what people with HEMA/other martial-arts backgrounds in pole-arm experience think of that style of fighting/weapon. Would that work or do you think the socketing would be insufficient for that kind of use?
Loyd are you stand on something or are you just super tall?
mavmanish I think Lloyd is reasonably tall, but that guy next to him is reasonably short.
Jizz Fudgsickle how tall is reasonably tall?
hahahadracula
6'2 - 6'4 i imagine
+mavmanish Good call, Kris, he's 6'3 (if I'm not mistaken), said by himself on another video. That's 192cm for normal people with normal length units :)
"Normal length units." Get over yourself, man.
I think it's a bit strange that he assumes that there has to be any significance at all. Honestly, I see no reason why they just put a hole in it for no particular reason at all, merely ornamentaly. Also, I wonder how much thought the designer put into it? It might just not be the best design for a spear.
Maybe to lighten it a bit.
Lloyd! Yer a giant!
There was some serious passive aggressive conflict between these two
Maybe the holes where there to make a ghostly whistling noise when held up in the wind, to give the enemy the heeby jeebies.
Hi mate. I just watched the bronze age rapier and rivets vids. How about a point on video about when blades were developed with tangs rather than the blunt end and rivet design of bronze age dirks and rapiers? Maybe one on pattern welded swords and leaf blade swords as well?
Great stuff - educational and funny. Keep up the great work
That spear is a practical battlefield weapon. It could be used two-handed on a long shaft in concert with shield and sword/axe-men. Of course, we would have to assume they were fully human and able to use all their neurons, rather than facile cardboard cutouts for a historical display.
It seems to me the lack of partisan-like side-spikes would improve chances that it would not get stuck or slowed on something, making this more smooth side-winged design a potentially better one for actual combat (particularly against unarmed peasants or animals. While I imagine a partisan may have been nearly as effective in actual combat, and possibly more-so if one intends to try disarming and parrying others who are armed, I would guess part of it's design was to be "scary" looking, similar to what our man Lindy says about the purpose of bayonets.
Or perhaps it was a partisan that had been re-purposed after being captured or whatever had beaten it up sufficiently to make it not easy to fix without a complete reforge of the metal.
It reminds me of the spear / lance from the 1980's movie "Dragonslayer."
the holes in the spear makes me think that it is made to pierce in a body so that half of the two holes are in so blood could drain so you can disable a person and bleed out the victim just using the dark part of my mind
I want this spear so badly
Lovely weapon that, whatever it was actually used for.
I like you having a guest I feel different options on how a weapon might be used is valuable in learning about this sort of thing. One request though if you have more guests on could you introduce them in the video please?
My policy has always been to dive into the content and waste no time with introductions and telling the viewer what I'm going to tell him. I get impatient with videos that start "Hello, I'm Bob and I'm going to tell you about..." His name is not an interesting fact, and I'd rather he just tell me. Mick Skelly is the chap on the left, and in a way I am his guest, since this was his house, and the weapons were his.
Lindybeige After watching several videos on a site that has 30 secs of starting titles and others where five minutes waffle precedes any information. I can't agree with you more.
jaocheu No Wadsworth Constant here!
I think Matt Easton thought the assegai was kind of ceremonial, given the large head for a small shaft. Then again, he was imagining it as a throwing spear.
It certainly is a lovely thing, and the asagai idea had occurred to me also. However I don't know enough about asegai (and have never handled one) to really have much opinion on that.
Considering the primitive armor of the bronze age, it's quite feasible that a weapon that would later be used mainly for civilian crowd control could actually perform well on the battlefield. Granted, shields are an issue, but a hefty weapon like that would probably have no problem cleaving through what little protection warriors had otherwise.
Maybe like a falx? Or maybe even a sarrissa? They had massive heads, but would need good counter-weights.
Anyway, the partisan concept makes most sense to me based on the bronze age halberds you talked about before. Were they contemporaries? If that style of slash and thrust pole-arms was prevalent at the time the partisan concept fits perfectly.
the broad head would be useful for hunting, perhaps from horseback. Just thinking out loud. Its wound would bleed profusely and the head would be less likely to get lodged in the struggling game animal, which would allow the user to potentially inflict several wounds or deter the game in case in decided to attack the hunter. More recent hunting spears tend to employ similar wide heads, albeit with the addition of a crosspiece below the head. Thinking about it, it wouldn't be difficult to use the lower set of loops to fix a simple crossbar to the shaft. Is there any reason to assume that it was necessarily a military implement?
It's a hewing spear. Lots of reference to such weapons in later Norse literature, not really surprising to find them earlier.
there is the possibility that the holes were used to tie a pennant or some other sort of identifying flag to.
I'd wager something was tied to the holes in the spear. Something similar to the Asian tassels you see on their spears.
A shorter haft would make it closer to the Pudao/Podao. Something interesting to think about for sure.
I got the same feeling, but I feel like something too long could just get caught on the blade and cut itself off of get in the way. Ornaments on Asian spears are put _behind_ the head, not _on_ the head.
It could be a status symbol, like "oh look what a big spear I have, I must be important and manly and so on". This doesn't discount it as a battlefield weapon. There are other cultures where we see sub-optimal weapons used as status symbols, for example the Vikings were very proud of their hugely expensive swords and carried them into battle despite spears being the predominant and arguably the most effective weapon in a shield wall. Likewise the use of the Katana as a symbol of a samurai's status, despite fighting in an environment where most battlefield casualties were caused by archery. I also wonder if something similar may be the case with the bronze shields. "Sure, you can make a wooden shield that's stronger and lighter and cheaper, but *look how much bronze I can afford to just carry around!*"
I also wonder about the holes. The could be purely decorative - I have noticed that sometimes you see forms or features on artifacts made in a 'new' material that only made sense in the old one, but have been retained, apparently because "That's what an looks like." Alternatively they may be more practical. If using the spear in a cutting action the socket can split or break, especially in a relatively soft metal like bronze. Perhaps the holes are retained on the socket spear simply so that you can re-haft it if that happens and you don't have anyone around who can repair it.
The Celts of the Bronze Age used short stabbing spears much like the Zulu Assagai, so Lindy your guess that the shaft was shorter is probably correct. From Irish mythology we know that Cú Chulainn had in his kit of bronze weapons short stabbing spears.
Who is this nice fellow anyway and why hasn't Dr. Jones relocated his stuff to a museum yet?
I love the idea of Bronze age crowd controll :)
whatever its purpose I wouldn't want to be stabbed or hacked at with it
Definitely not. I am sure it would hurt. A lot.
I think it's reasonable to suggest it's hafting was a matter of personal preference. During the middle ages smiths produced heaps bill and spear types, and in medieval imagery you see them shafts of all different lengths. I don't see why the bronze age would be significantly different.
I know the Celts would leave shields and other crafts as votive offerings in lakes and rivers, so maybe some of those all-bronze shields are purely ceremonial things not meant for actual use in battle.