Christopher Hitchens was a real one. Agree or disagree with him, I think he genuinely sought the truth and that he did his best to never convey his message in obscurity.
@@user-sw2lv3zp6o LOL Murray is a zionist worshipping hack. He loves Israel more than the UK and he's a genocide apologist. Hitchens, on the other hand, was a man who stood for morality and human rights, which is why he opposed zionism and said it was a "waste of Judaism." To hell with Douglas Murray - that clown.
As a Pakistani Atheist i have asked the same question about my country. The reality is that it is a Muslim state minorities like me have to live like second class citizen.
The fact that you are a Pakistani atheist gives me hope. I can't stand Pakistanis or the country in general BUT maybe if there were more like you things would go better.
@@izifaddag8221 oh trust me, you would find me 10x more annoying then a normal pakistani muslim but yeah i understand where you take is comming from, pakistani use very emotionally charged language.
I searched for this because it is near impossible to find the truth in todays media. Christopher Hitchens will always be a beacon of the cold hard truth for me. I still apply things i learnt from him in my everyday life.
This came up on my feed due to the recent deluge of ‘experts’ on TH-cam professing detailed historical knowledge of the whole Israeli Palestinian conflict. I appreciated Christopher Hitchens, but this was an example of unparalleled ignorance and a presentation of the deepest historical inaccuracies from him. I’ve heard some tosh from many regarding the issue of the land, but this is the by far the worst.
@@jamesparker223good question. I think there are quite a few Hitchens viewers that would be appalled if they found other videos from him. The above comment seems to come with quite a bit of bias. Hitchens said a lot of clever things, and in their entirety, they are not able to be high-jacked by any political side. He uncovered the shitty truth everywhere.
@@riquelmeone so vague. Any video. Literally any video you click on. Will have comments posted about how incredible it is or how incredible the person in the video is.... or a scene.... or a food taste or smell. It's horrifying. But obviously people wouldn't flock to something if they didn't care about it. So they'd only post if they liked it. Or hated it. And mostly it's people who like it. And then little fan bases around famous people like Hitchens. I bet..... if I were Hitchens..... and I typed whatever Hitchens would type here.... you'd think I was stupid af. And I say that as someone who loved Hitchens. I'm trapped in the same ooze. I'm not immune. I'm trapped too. Big daddy media. Tell me what to believe! I am but a mirror.
A state FOR anyone people must be governed by someone. So Chris is wrong. Every government has a form of dictated authority. Even one ruled by anarchy.
@@goldenstringedinstruments5500 I don't understand the point you're trying to make, could you elaborate? Hitchens seems to be drawing a distinction between a Jewish ethnostate and a state with constitutional protections for Jews; one necessitates the forced displacement of native populations to create and maintain an ethnic majority for Jews across most of the region while the other doesn't.
I'm sitting here heated about the images i'm seeing coming out of these Hamas celebrations and trying to remain as rational as I can. I understand that Palestinians have largely been oppressed and denied the access to things that might make them less likely to follow a more conservative and radical interpretation of Islam. But I do not think that excuses the large public support for Hamas amongst Palestinians. I think the idea that a victory parade in Palestine would have the raped, robbed, broken limbed body of a German woman is absolutely inexcusable and a reflection of the society itself. I understand that like 2.8 million people live there and just under half do not support Hamas. I just have a hard time sympathizing with a society that mostly supports anything this barbaric.
@@levparnas1066there’s zero evidence of rape that has actually been provided let alone “mass rape” as some have been claiming on social media.Hamas were working against the clock for the operation to go as quickly as possible. The only single thing that could guarantee its success was speed. Without the speed, the entire surprise factor is lost. The lack of time is simply denying them the ability to do shit like this. Also, the only media outlet in Israel to report on rape is an extreme far right Zionist publication. No one else is officially saying this. But Americans on social media certainly are.
He wrote I think a good piece in Slate, 'How Hamas dooms Palestine' which is worth a re-read by everyone. One of the interesting things on my mind is seeing leftists like the UK's Corbyn contort on camera when asked if he condemns Hamas? I've always wondered why they react that way. Well possibly it's because they feel a sense of weariness because in Hitchens' Slate piece he mentions how Hamas was bolstered by Israel itself during its early years as a form of divide and rule against more secular Palestinian groups.
This world needs more people like him . What we need is the ability to understand each other and live along one another in peace . We need to evolve . 😊
We are the same animal we were thousands of years ago. There has been no quantum leap in our evolution and civilisation is nothing more than a thin veneer under which the beast sleeps. Until humans genuinely evolve, separation of different people remains the best strategy for peace co-existence. Unfortunately, multiculturalism ignores the history of our species and is going to result in the reawakening of the beast.
Whether or not one agrees with him on any specific matter, he makes clear where he stands, why he stands there/how he got there -- and why that's a credible, principled, factual and rational position.
The same Christopher who supported the war on Iraq in 2003! The Islamophobic Hitchens! NO RIP I am happy he was gone. Humanity is much better off this way
Oh yes he does, this looks like a book tour vid and a quick answer to what he knows is too complex, but fast forwards us to think about resolve, still; He writes extensively about both sides, and in many other interviews you can hear the dueling history which he covers with insight, experience, logic and reason. He does cover both sides. He just begs the question, what are we to do with the obvious fuckery that religion has perpetuated?@@peteMickeal33
This is the essence of the conflict, two tribes arguing over which god gave the land to whom. It is simply asinine people die because of this instead of living peacefully and with prosperity.
I've read about 50 comments so far and it strikes me that people who negatively criticised his opinion expected a LOT from a video extract that lasted 2 mins and some seconds, 🤨
"Do you want a state for Jews or do you want a Jewish state?" As a secular Jew who's always wondered what a "Jewish state" really means, that is incredibly clarifying . . . because you can answer yes to the first question and no to the second.
@@bunkomcdungoof course the reality is you can't not have both. Clearly israel now exists. The question must be how to balance the two needs, and how to throw off the extremists on both sides.
@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000 Well, the extremists in Palestine, Hamas, have been propped up by Netanyahu's government because they are the best obstacle to peace and a two-state solution. Hard-line Israelis don't want a two-state solution because it means they have to give up land and power that they want. In order to create a balanced solution you'd have to first throw off the Netanyahu government, as well as any other hardliners. Then you'd have to destroy Hamas twofold: first by starving them of the human rights violations they use to justify their own atrocities, and second by uplifting more moderate factions in Palestine. The Palestinian people need an alternative between Israeli brutality and Hamas's savagery, and neither of those two factions want to give it to them.
@@jrm13 Do you suggesting if Hamas was secular moral resistance group, that would make Israel not do what they do and done in the past? Of course not, Israel problem is not Hamas, it’s Palestinian existence. Palestinian authority in the west bank, what do they get for not using violence against occupied regime? Nothing. The problem is Israel, and the solution for now is on the hand of Israel.
Oh dear responder. What a shame ! You think little of his views, but you can't resist tuning in to hear what his 'take' is on the situation. You're really mesmerised by his intelligence- aren't you. You're really a closet admirer are you not 😅😅
If your definition of a "greatest loss" is someone who was obsessed with making bigoted rants about religion any chance he could, I guess you would think that.
reading a rational comment like yours is a breath of fresh air to me. on youtube its freakin absurd how many people chant their demonising slogans & don't bother to do their research.
A timely find. Excellent. HERE'S A BETTER, AND EASIER TO READ, TRANSCRIPT (than the auto one in the description) - 'Well, it's always good to be asked to begin by straightening out the Israel/Palestine question. [Audience laughter.] Why don't we get that out of the way? I think there's a distinction you're failing to make, and it's actually, if I may say it, clarified a little in 'Dieu n'est pas grand' {'God is not Great'} [audience laughter], available in all good bookshops everywhere, including the one we're in now. Israeli archaeology, which I think is a very courageous and honest profession, in particular Professor Finkelstein, the Head of the department at the University of Tel Aviv, has clarified it for us. The story of the Exodus, the wandering in the Sinai, the conquest of Jericho, and so on, is all balls from beginning to end. It’s completely, fantastically made up. There isn’t a word of truth in it. And it’s just as well it isn’t true, because if it were true it would involve divine instruction for genocide and enslavement, as well as genital mutilation and a lot of other things without which we could well do. However, Israeli archaeology, well, many Jews say ‘Come on, if none of it is true, the whole Moses thing is made up, can’t you give me anything to cling to?’. Well, yes. If you go and dig in Palestine, the first thing that any archaeologist will do, going to a village, will be dig in the midden, dig in the rubbish dump, and find out what people threw away, and when, and in what order. It’s very, very interesting always. In certain hill communities, way, way back, you will find that while all the other neighbouring villages don’t have any - do have, excuse me, - do have pig bones in their middens and their [unclear], and these villages don’t. No pigs. That’s not the only proof, but it’s one of many. There have been Jewish people in Palestine for a very long time. Their claim for the right to live there is as good as anybody else’s, and better than some. But, the question is this, and it was posed by many Jewish spokesmen from the very beginning of the enterprise, when Herzel first mooted it: do you want a state for Jews in Palestine, or do you want a Jewish State? Now just ponder this for a second - now since I’m stuck with this I may as well absolutely clarify it - here’s what I mean by that distinction. Should Pakistan be what it was first claimed to be, a state for Muslims of India, so Muslims feel safe in there, or should it be a Muslim State, where everyone has to follow Muslim law, and where if you’re not a Muslim you don’t really have real rights? And that’s the difference that Zionism attempts to blur, and I think it would be better off unblurred. And there you go. But of course, I mean I need hardly add, no one else’s claim to the land is any better. That goes without . . . cela va sans dire. '
Thanks for this! Where you have '[unclear]' I'm pretty sure he translates the title of his book into French: 'Dieu n'est pas grand' ['God is not Great'].
Territorial claims tend to obscure an important distinction between, on the one hand, political soverignty over a territory, and, on the other hand, individual ownership of a parcel of land. If a Palestinian owns a house and an olive grove in the yard, Israeli soverignty over the territory encompassing the house and grove do not justify violation of the Palestinian's ownership. Tumbling Palestinian-owned houses and groves to make way for settlements are acts of ethnic cleansing. Hating Hamas's criminal terrorism and murder does not obligate me to turn a blind eye.
The biblical stories of Moses are fiction. Zionists in Israel make their claim to the land based on fictitious stories. Jews have an equal right to be there and to be part of a State, but it should not be a religious State that protects only the rights of Jews "... a State for Jews or a Jewish State..." Zionism blurs this by claiming they have a democracy among a bunch of savages, but there is no equality for the people of the land. It's a very eloquent and timely statement that speaks volumes about today, even though it is just a clip, out of context from a much longer conversation. Thanks,
I think you can take his ending there to mean a couple things. I think some might be reading it as a pretty tepid criticism of Israel, and I suppose it is to most people... Basically saying that a JEWISH religious state is in principle no better from the Caliphate. Now... I believe he's talking principles here, and not for a moment do I believe he would IN PRACTICE have even a moment's hesitation in admitting he'd rather have a Jewish state that at least pays lipservice to secularism than a government that is expressly religiously genocidal. I don't think he was hiding the ball here... I just think he knows that if he starts making difinitive statements on the subject, he WILL be talking about it all night, and possibly for months to come. This subject matter just swallows people whole if they make the news cycle. The Other thing he seems to be saying here, I think he is looking at it in terms of messaging... and I think he values a clarity of messaging. Again, he seems to be criticising Israel when he says that they are blurring lines. What he means by that is that Israel is the most secular place in the Middle East. But are they Secular? Well... depends on who you ask. If you ask me, Israel is as secular as their enemies will allow. If Israel were TRULY secular, they would have serious problems with migrant terroristm. So Israel CANNOT be truly secular... but they advertise their secularism to the world. I, personally don't have a problem with this. I think grown-ups can figure out that Israel is as secular as they can manage (and they advertise this to it's allies in the world), and Palestine is as extremist as they can manage (while they propagandize fools around the world into thinking they are no worse than Israel). So to me, it's rather stupid to include Israel in a false equivalence and say they aren't living up to the ideology they claim to represent. He's right that they fall a bit short, but comparing that to the politics of Palestine/Hamas... no. I call foul on mentioning it in the same sentence. BUT, I suppose Hitchens thinks of himself as a more long-term thinker than I. He believes that blurring the line between a "Jewish State" and the "Secular State" it tries to be simply turns people off to the idea of secularism as not only a virtue... but a global mandate. Hitchens and I are both secularists, don't get me wrong... but that part of the world, it's just silly to expect true secularism to flourish. You DO NOT flourish in that area of the world without big strong walls, big strong sticks, AND the right to keep the enemy out of your country. It's like my grandpa jokes, "Violence doesn't solve anything but your problems." Is violence the ideal? Of course not, but weakness, honesty, and integrity can be every bit as evil as violence if it's directed to the wrong party. At the end of the day, we're talking about war, and true secularism isn't on the menu. It's Jews or Hamas... and I do believe if Hitchens were alive today, he wouldn't shy away from that, and he would once again not have much to say on the subject because it IS rather obvious. Palestine IS Hamas... always has been... that's why when Hamas killed 1000+ innocent civilian Jews, PALESTINIANS AROUND THE WORLD DANCED AND SANG IN THE STREET... in FREE COUNTRIES. Some would have you believe that Palestine is under the heel of Hamas... and that they voted in Hamas, and Hamas then had themselves a hostile takeover, and that's possible... but if that were the case, what were the celebrations about? If Palestine TRULY opposes Hamas, they're clearly dead... like worldwide. Hitchens, I'm sure, had the utmost moral clarity even back then... but it was such a daunting discussion you couldn't help but bunt it if you have other subjects you intend to cover. Today, in the last 3 months, the clarity has come in in 16k. Today, it only takes a minute or 2 to make it very clear that Hamas needs to die, there is no Palestine, and Israel is conducting the most ethical* military operation in the history of the world. *In fact, if anyone should be complaining about Israel's military right now, it would be the Israelis. A lot of them believe Oct 7th was a False Flag event, and I'm unaware of any strong evidence of that claim... but the circumstances WERE certainly suspicious enough to say that the conspiracy theorists on this subject are NOT crazy tin-foil-hat Simpsons Cat-Ladies.
The charter doesn't exist anymore, not since January 2006. The refugee issue emerged immediately in the aftermath of the 1948 war, beginning with UNSCR 194.
i'm trying to learn more about the israel/palestine conflict. one question i have is, what percentage of the jews in the region claim a religious right to be there, and what percentage claim a secular, historical right to be there?
Bro it is just the fundamentalist fuckers always when it comes to sustained apartheid. Be it white ideology or Judeo-fascist ideology. Ask savvy non-Israeli western jews (I can't say Ben Shapiro is the perp but he had ties to Israeli suppliers of info re 'liberal' synagogues to neonazi blacklists - specifically the 'tie' went on to be Israeli Foreign Minister) or now at this point in history, the effing Jewish non-settler populace lol! Those settler fuckers are at least temporarily attempting to occupy Israel proper.
It's an interesting question, but besides the point, perhaps? It depends on who you ask, though I doubt even the secular ones draw a hard line between ethnicity and religion. There are observant Jews, who probably see the state as founded on religion, and secular Jews, who probably see it as a community founded on ethnicity and tradition. But if you must be ethnically Jewish to belong fully to the religion, lol? And if the tradition that binds the secular Jews to the community is religious in nature? The distinction collapses. Regardless, every one of them wants a home for the Jewish people. That's the main thing. The justifications are secondary to that wish. And if we are wary of Israel morphing into a fundamentalist state, well... no faction close to power is suggesting to make religious practice mandatory. There are orthodox communities within Israel, and if you want to stay there, you have to follow religious law. But you are free to leave and live as a secular Jew without having to exit the country. A national equivalent to sharia law seems extremely unlikely. Hitchens has a need to jab at religion. It is getting the best of him here. The Jews have proven themselves exceptionally good at secularism.
No such thing as a religious right to be anywhere. There is no such thing as rightful ownership of land. There is only temporary occupation. Everyone is temporarily occupying the land that they're on.
are those jews living in the settlements in the west bank any more religious than jews generally? in other words do most jews in the settlements claim a divine right to be there? also, is netenyahu relgious? does he claim any divine rights regarding the land?
Holdin Down More accurately, the modern Palestinian is in a similar situation as Philistine. Philistines were people who came from somewhere else, and attempted to whipe out some other new arrival, the Hebrews, who did have roots there earlier. The Israelis got the situation under control but it was a super power that eventually knocked off the Philistines. Philistine also means 'invader'. 😉 So back to Canaanites. Like the modern Palestinians, the Canaanites sacrificed the kids to their gods. At least those who follow Hamas etx do the same.
@G L.C Is the Bible the only sourse that records The Philistine? Is the Bible completely negative toward them? Re: David's refuge with one of the Philistine kings.
@G L.C ...it doesn't paint non-Hebrew as evil....Some where and some where not and The Bible even calls out the Hebrew people as such when they started from The Lord. Is Cyrus The Great viewed as evil? Sounds like you need to return to the junction that you took an incorrect turn on.
@G L.C ...then again, comparing Hebrews to Third Reich leadership is kind of backward seeing it was Haj Al-Husseini who met with Hitler and promised to finish off what Hitler started.
[cont.] well that churchill quote was the very same article where he stated that zionism was Against communism. lebzelter stated that churchill's "commie-jew" analysis failed to analyze the role that russian oppression of Jews had played in their joining various revolutionary movements, but instead "to inherent inclinations rooted in jewish character & religion." [political antisemitism in england: 1918-1939. macmillan, st anthony's college, oxford. pp. 181] u did say ur happy to listen & learn.
Love Christopher Hitchens, and we so need more like him today, or even *anyone* like him… but of course we all can be wrong. I'm wondering if his reference to claims from the Israeli archaeologist Finkelstein re: the false historical basis for the Exodus story have been borne out over the last decade or so. Don't give me an answer if you don't know, but I sure am curious. I hate it when the "parties of God" war against each other.
Dont think he commented on it during his lifetime. As an advocate for democracy though. I expect he is alligned to the british. After all the falkland islands wanted to be british.
@@synagogueofsteak5006 *the millions of jewish settlers that colonized it over a hundred year period and deny democratic representation to its non-jewish inhabitants want to be jewish
Mr Hitchens is extraordinarily honest in admitting that, according to archeological finds carried out by Israeli archaeologists, the Israelites do not have sole claim to the land that is now Israel. (This was also understood/explained by Edward Said.) It is a point, that, of course, many commentators seem not to have understood.
I'd say Palestinians whose grandparents were evicted from the territory have a strong claim than Israelis who might have had ancestors from the territory 1000 years ago, or whatever. But also the people who were actually born in Israel have a strong claim.
Not what you think it is. Nothing he said really diminishes Israel's claim. Israel lived in Judea and Samaria for centuries and other people lived in and around that same region at various points in time. Who were the other peoples? Various ethnic and religious groups, none which can be directly traced to any present-day people or nation. The Jewish people are the only people claiming the land who can trace their history back to the land.
Even if everything in the bible is false. We know that There was a kingdom of Isreal in Roman times. We know it was there during the time of the Greek/Persian Selucid Empire, and we are pretty damn sure that it was there during the reign of Assyria and Babylon. It may not go back to before the Bronze age but it sure as hell pre dates anything else in the region. Its historical even if its not religious. The Greeks won back their independance from the ottomans in the early 19th century. You could have argued that non of them had any real conection to the ancient Greeks of 400BC. And yet everyone was on board. Do the modern Iranians have any true links to the achaemenid Persians? should arabs get to take their land?
"The myth of Jewish Communism was one of the most popular and widespread political prejudices in the first half of the 20th century, in Eastern Europe in particular." [Gerrits, 'The Myth of Jewish Communism: A Historical Interpretation' Peter Lang, 2009, p.195] In the Russian Revolution (1917) "the Bolshevik party had about 10,000 members, of whom 364 were Jews." [Beyond the Pale; Kara-Murza, 'Revolutionary Political Forces between February and October." Soviet Civilization. Vol. 1.']. [cont.]
If I understand this question correctly the Palestinians don't want either a state for jews or a jewish state. And that is the problem, thank you to the great Mr Hitchens.
Not exactly. Hamas doesn't want any Jews at all. They want to eliminate all Jews, not just their state. And I would separate Hamas from Palestinians. Most Palestinians probably just want to live in peace. Their state has been hijacked by Hamas, which is a radical terrorist group.
@@facetofloor You mean the current state of Israel? Where Jews have lived for thousands of years? Jews didn't just show up when the modern state of Israel was created in 1948. Jews deserve to have a homeland where they can defend themselves and not be victims like they were in European pogroms of the 20th century and earlier. They are the only democracy in the region. They grant full rights to non-Jews who live in Israel. And they have shown up at the "two-state solution" negotiation table numerous times. Always it is the Palestinians who walk away. The Jews are willing to share the land. The Palestinians just want them dead. Not this time.
@@yayayoma "Jews didn't just show up when the modern state of Israel was created in 1948" - Yes they did and were encouraged to do so. Also they arrived in mass during the 30s leading up to the nakba in 48. Don't twist history to fit your narrative. If jews deserve to have a homeland then it should have been created somewhere in Europe, not as a colonial project on arab land who historically had been nothing but welcoming to them.
@@DrDanQ92no Jews have been there as long or longer then Palestinians. It’s a melting pot and most of the Palestinians showed up when the Jews were coming back to the land in 1900’s because businesses started coming back and money was to be made.
2. Intelligent brothers Outspoken speaking with facts Great knowledge of history Need people like them It will bring back England ❤❤ Always spot on their subjects Why can't politicians Talking common sense with facts Have noticed Outspoken speaking leaving the government
Except Israel doesn’t require one to be Jewish to have citizenship. There are around 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel with full rights. Is there a single Arab country with a thriving Jewish community left?
Hitchens, for whom even as a Christian I’ve long had admiration for calling out religious hypocrisy, can’t speak for very long without religion bashing. It’s his MO. By the way, whether anyone reads the Bible or not, historically and archeologically there is evidence Jews were operating as a nation state in Israel a couple of millennia ago. Yet Islam, very young in comparison, claims all the land as its own. Palestine and the surrounding Arab states don’t want a state for Jews, nor a Jewish state. Take the time to read about the 5 times there’s been attempts to seek a two-state solution and who, even with favored conditions, rejected it all 5 times. And then read about the final statement from the Arab states: “Khartoum Resolution known as "The Three No's"; No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.[1] The summit also resolved that the "oil-rich Arab states" give financial aid to the states who lost the war and to "help them rebuild their military forces."[2] The final communique of the meeting "underscored the Palestinians' right to regain the whole of Palestine-that is, to destroy the State of Israel."[3] The outcome of this summit influenced Israeli foreign policy for decades.[4]” So No three times to any notion of peace or resolution. The Arab states don’t want Jews. Period. It’s hard to deny after 10/7/23.
Why didn't the Arabs want to give me their land? Who tf would want their land stolen from them? No one. There are a lot of european states and they want to keep them. Why didn't the europeans who committed the Holocaust give one of their states to the Jewish people?
A professor of Hebrew and Jewish Studies from New York University disputes Hitchens' claim here, in an article in the Jerusalem Post from 2022, the same paper that ran Professor Finkelstein's anti-Exodus account around 15 years earlier........"Is the Bible's story of the Jewish exodus from Egypt accurate?", 3/10/22
This is the case. Israelis have an enormously long but not continuous history in the Holy Land (more recently named Palestine). Yet others have history there too. They must learn somehow to get along.
How can any group claim ownership of a holy land? If the teachings of your religions were virtuous, you would find a way to share this land and it would be free of conflict. There would be lines drawn on the map and it would be marked "holy land." All would be welcome and no country would claim it. Instead I see pious people call for the death of their neighbours.
Good distinction for my own understanding: a Jewish State or a State for Jews. Clarify Clarify Clarify. Anti-semitic? Or anti-Israel? It is such a broadly misunderstood set of terms. As I told my doctoral students: you’ve got to create your Glossary of Terms so we will know what you are talking about. This practice should be taught rigorously from primary grades, and up.
As far as I am aware, Abraham moved from Mesopotamia (Southern Iraq area) to the area of Israel. There it is claimed that a mythical being, the existence of which there is no evidence, aka God, told him that he and his descendants are promised the land known as Israel. This has fed into modern-day Zionism. The right of people to exist should, in principle, be supported. However, I just wonder if it is the Nation and Land claim on the basis of mythology that has contributed to the challenges against Jews. If I were to make the same land claims where I live (a similar distance form where I was born), I would expect to meet a certain amount of resistance, if only ridicule and possible hospitalisation.
God then also kicks the children of Israel out due to wickedness. Jews also hate Jesus and attack him and claim he is in hell in their religious book, the Talmud
You have to give the man credit. He seems to be quite professional, riding his authoritative bicycle down the edge of the razor blade without falling to either side.. Did we really learn anything here?
"I know there are Jews who are different.." - its like saying "kurds who are different but they are usually hated by their tribe". basically, some are different to others, but the others won't like it. lol most jews, including zionists, aren't "tribal", they take their nationalism, or religion, with a pinch of salt. i am one & met more jews than u have. so consider the option at least. btw, a lot of trotskyists, anarchists & zionists were as moral as anyone, all 3 labels hav countless versions.
No, that's the end of religion. The start of religion is the start of human consciousness itself, in it's ultimate indifferenciation between you and me, or us and the world
The moment you delve into the realm of morality, you are discussing theology and therefore speaking in religious terms. Evolved bacteria don’t have morals.
please do feel free to ask me any more questions my friend. almost all jews claim a historical right to be there. usually in the perspective of: the jews had Less of a right of autonomy & self-determination in any other place in comparison, as in israel there's the historical/archeological connection & some indigenous jews that never left the place. secular jews are israel's biggest demographic, &about half of those are atheist jews. less than half of israel's jews are religious, but many are.
@@gabalw.3992 "How can you be both an atheist and a jew?" - first, as an intro, half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of god. For just a short introduction to our people, you can check out this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism To underline some points of my own, of relevance - Jews are a people, an ancient nation scattered across the globe, from the historical records of [Assyrian/Babylonian/Persian/Roman] exiles out of Israel, and some of the Jews staying in their homeland Israel the whole time. 'Jews' the identity, is not a "nation" in the modern sense like the European invention of modern nations. but its more kind of like in Iraq they have the minority group 'Assyrians' - an ancient nation - also now scattered across the globe from attempted genocide by daesh. but also with some still in their homeland. What constitutes the identity characteristics of a nation? 1. Common language/s 2. Common history 3. Common roots, historical homeland 4. Common cultural traits 5. Often, also common religion. Jews have all these traits. Now the religion itself - fun fact, the Jewish People is itself much older than the Jewish religion. The one god was introduced to Israelites quite late in their history. Canaanite pagan religions were the trend of the day. Mainstream monotheism to God fully ingrained through our whole nation was even as late the period of ancient Persian empire's conquest of Israel/Judea (what in those times was the semi-autonomous zone of Yehud Medinata). Since then, Talmud changed the religion to be much more tolerant and accepting, much less backward and primitive e.g. the Jewish nation has not stoned gays & pagans to death since the days of the Romans, 2000 years ago. No capital punishment by Jews since then. Many centuries ago, Baruch Spinoza - an ancient Jewish philosopher - questioned the authority of the Torah as the complete source of truth from god's words, and claimed it to be not. The first openly non-religious Jew, you could say. Bible questioner and denier. He was also the one who led and inspired later philosophers to begin the European Enlightenment era. I'd even say there's a characteristically Jewish element in atheistic thinking, since days much earlier than Spinoza. Rabbinical tradition of Talmud encourages open-minded thinking, questioning, debate among others. Bottom line, people's identities can enrich & diversify & re-form & reflect & develop through time and space, when you stretch it to thousands of years.
This is an old video I realize but since he touches on the subject of 'a state where Jews are safe to live as they wish' vs 'should Israel be a Jewish state where the Jewish faith is imposed?' In Israel's defence; they do allow muslims and christians (and atheists like Hitchens) to live as they so choose. You are not required to adhere to the Jewish faith in other words. In the surrounding muslim countries this is quite different. That's why you'll find that 20% of the Israeli are muslim (Palestinians) but there are 0 Jews in Gaza.
@@giddygrub7176 The vast majority are full citizens just like Jews. There are also Arab Israelis in the Knesset, the Israeli parlement. You are right that not all are citizens, some groups have not applied to become citizen and are permanent residents instead. From wikipedia; "Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[23] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status." Then there are Palestinians from Gaza and the Westbank that have only work permits in Israel but are neither residents nor citizens.
@@janruudschutrups9382 thank you for your reply, there is so much to wade through and it's hard to know what is accurate (though I'm generally not a fan of Wikipedia I have to say).
@@giddygrub7176 You're welcome 🙂. Yes, I can understand, especially with these complex subjects one can easily feel overwhelmed by all the history of it and how many events are interconnected. I understand your point about wikipedia, it's always good practise to verify data and not rely solely on one source. 👍
It’s a distinction that plays well in a book shop - not so much in real life. History suggests that there is no such thing as a ‘state for Jews,’ at least not in the long term. Hence the need for a Jewish state.
Christopher Hitchens was a real one. Agree or disagree with him, I think he genuinely sought the truth and that he did his best to never convey his message in obscurity.
I emailed him back in 2008, and he actually replied back to my very long e-mail as a 19 year old kid from Arabia.
I really miss having him around.
Thank you for sharing your little story, I appreciated it. He seemed like he was a good man, too.
Wow, incredible! I would absolutely cherish that email, I hope you have it framed in your house somewhere :) Greeting from Ireland
I am sure like you Hitch cherished that email.
Peace and long life.
And may Hitch never be forgotten.
As a person born in Pakistan, let me just say that his analogy is very apt and true.
you can never have a state where ethnicity A has more rights than ethnicities B or C, and have long term peace. no justice no peace. it's that simple
So are you against Pakistan? Of course not. Only against a Jewish state. So cut the crap and BS.
Hitchens is a much needed mental giant in today's world.
RIP, good sir !
Douglas Murray is a good replacement.
Murray is a pathetic zionist cuck. He's not worthy to lick Hitchens' shoes.@@user-sw2lv3zp6o
I like Murray, except Murray is so far up Israel's arse that he risks objectivity
@@user-sw2lv3zp6o LOL Murray is a zionist worshipping hack. He loves Israel more than the UK and he's a genocide apologist. Hitchens, on the other hand, was a man who stood for morality and human rights, which is why he opposed zionism and said it was a "waste of Judaism." To hell with Douglas Murray - that clown.
@@user-sw2lv3zp6o LOL Murray is a zionist boot licking hack.
As a Pakistani Atheist i have asked the same question about my country. The reality is that it is a Muslim state minorities like me have to live like second class citizen.
or have to be non existent@Necromancer-ji7yb
You sick in the head
The fact that you are a Pakistani atheist gives me hope. I can't stand Pakistanis or the country in general BUT maybe if there were more like you things would go better.
@@izifaddag8221 they're probably not openly atheist. Coz it's not safe here.
@@izifaddag8221 oh trust me, you would find me 10x more annoying then a normal pakistani muslim but yeah i understand where you take is comming from, pakistani use very emotionally charged language.
I searched for this because it is near impossible to find the truth in todays media. Christopher Hitchens will always be a beacon of the cold hard truth for me. I still apply things i learnt from him in my everyday life.
Totally agree.
I love sharing the internet with gullible morons. 😅
Thought this was going to be dated in/from October 2023...
This came up on my feed due to the recent deluge of ‘experts’ on TH-cam professing detailed historical knowledge of the whole Israeli Palestinian conflict. I appreciated Christopher Hitchens, but this was an example of unparalleled ignorance and a presentation of the deepest historical inaccuracies from him. I’ve heard some tosh from many regarding the issue of the land, but this is the by far the worst.
How so? Explain yourself. Are you saying there is archaeological evidence of the Exodus? If so can we know where it is? @@Sanctified57
If you’re here after the events of october 2023 you are the smartest of individuals. Don’t die ever.
Why? Why are we better?
@@jamesparker223good question. I think there are quite a few Hitchens viewers that would be appalled if they found other videos from him.
The above comment seems to come with quite a bit of bias.
Hitchens said a lot of clever things, and in their entirety, they are not able to be high-jacked by any political side. He uncovered the shitty truth everywhere.
@@riquelmeone so vague.
Any video. Literally any video you click on. Will have comments posted about how incredible it is or how incredible the person in the video is.... or a scene.... or a food taste or smell.
It's horrifying.
But obviously people wouldn't flock to something if they didn't care about it. So they'd only post if they liked it. Or hated it.
And mostly it's people who like it.
And then little fan bases around famous people like Hitchens.
I bet..... if I were Hitchens..... and I typed whatever Hitchens would type here.... you'd think I was stupid af.
And I say that as someone who loved Hitchens. I'm trapped in the same ooze. I'm not immune. I'm trapped too.
Big daddy media. Tell me what to believe! I am but a mirror.
A state FOR anyone people must be governed by someone. So Chris is wrong. Every government has a form of dictated authority. Even one ruled by anarchy.
@@goldenstringedinstruments5500 I don't understand the point you're trying to make, could you elaborate? Hitchens seems to be drawing a distinction between a Jewish ethnostate and a state with constitutional protections for Jews; one necessitates the forced displacement of native populations to create and maintain an ethnic majority for Jews across most of the region while the other doesn't.
Even after death the clarity this man brings is amazing
To be fair, he was alive at the time of the above assertions.
@@karlwebster5438 haha
Intelligent man he most certainly was. But sadly totally ignorant and misinformed at least on this issue
He was a journalist. He *wasn't* the Messiah, he was a VERY NAUGHTY BOY.
Not especially. I thought he was uncharacteristically vague and what he said didn't offer anything useful regarding the conflict.
The world just might be a better place if Mr Hitchens was still with us.
Or a worse place.
He’d have been cancelled long ago and living on Rumble
@@CJ-eo2yjfree speech eh?
@@CJ-eo2yjI mean, if Hitch was right, which he usually was, he’s no place at all lol.
@@berryseinfeld6772he wouldn’t have given two fucks about being “cancelled” by a loud minority of morons.
Yet another time that I wish Hitchens was still here to weigh in on a current issue, it’s the Israel-Palestine conflict escalation this time
Thought I was the only one
I'm sitting here heated about the images i'm seeing coming out of these Hamas celebrations and trying to remain as rational as I can. I understand that Palestinians have largely been oppressed and denied the access to things that might make them less likely to follow a more conservative and radical interpretation of Islam. But I do not think that excuses the large public support for Hamas amongst Palestinians. I think the idea that a victory parade in Palestine would have the raped, robbed, broken limbed body of a German woman is absolutely inexcusable and a reflection of the society itself. I understand that like 2.8 million people live there and just under half do not support Hamas. I just have a hard time sympathizing with a society that mostly supports anything this barbaric.
@@levparnas1066there’s zero evidence of rape that has actually been provided let alone “mass rape” as some have been claiming on social media.Hamas were working against the clock for the operation to go as quickly as possible. The only single thing that could guarantee its success was speed. Without the speed, the entire surprise factor is lost.
The lack of time is simply denying them the ability to do shit like this.
Also, the only media outlet in Israel to report on rape is an extreme far right Zionist publication. No one else is officially saying this. But Americans on social media certainly are.
He wrote I think a good piece in Slate, 'How Hamas dooms Palestine' which is worth a re-read by everyone. One of the interesting things on my mind is seeing leftists like the UK's Corbyn contort on camera when asked if he condemns Hamas? I've always wondered why they react that way. Well possibly it's because they feel a sense of weariness because in Hitchens' Slate piece he mentions how Hamas was bolstered by Israel itself during its early years as a form of divide and rule against more secular Palestinian groups.
@@Phil_Mitchell Thank you so much for taking the time out to recommend the article. A very pertinent read.
This is it.,... wish you were here 2023
Just one more reason I miss a Christopher Hitchens
This world needs more people like him .
What we need is the ability to understand each other and live along one another in peace .
We need to evolve .
😊
Exactly
We are the same animal we were thousands of years ago. There has been no quantum leap in our evolution and civilisation is nothing more than a thin veneer under which the beast sleeps. Until humans genuinely evolve, separation of different people remains the best strategy for peace co-existence. Unfortunately, multiculturalism ignores the history of our species and is going to result in the reawakening of the beast.
International law needs to be applied equally.
Except he didn't live that way at all. He mostly just engaged in bigoted rants about religion. He as a bigot, and the world is better off without him.
I love him. the light of truth he sheds is, as always, so enlightening and relieving. No mystery, just honest history.
Agreed. Whenever I get fed up of the constant propaganda form both sides I just go back to one of these video's. Logical and unabashedly honest.
Whether or not one agrees with him on any specific matter, he makes clear where he stands, why he stands there/how he got there -- and why that's a credible, principled, factual and rational position.
The same Christopher who supported the war on Iraq in 2003! The Islamophobic Hitchens! NO RIP
I am happy he was gone. Humanity is much better off this way
he won't tell you though that this whole mess was created by the brits when playing age of empires in the middle east a century ago.
Oh yes he does, this looks like a book tour vid and a quick answer to what he knows is too complex, but fast forwards us to think about resolve, still; He writes extensively about both sides, and in many other interviews you can hear the dueling history which he covers with insight, experience, logic and reason. He does cover both sides. He just begs the question, what are we to do with the obvious fuckery that religion has perpetuated?@@peteMickeal33
Most everything he said ages well, this is very rare. Simply it tends to clarify and make possible a more informed understanding.
This is the essence of the conflict, two tribes arguing over which god gave the land to whom. It is simply asinine people die because of this instead of living peacefully and with prosperity.
I wish Hitch were still with us!
I've read about 50 comments so far and it strikes me that people who negatively criticised his opinion expected a LOT from a video extract that lasted 2 mins and some seconds, 🤨
Imagine being in such a space surrounded by books and the thoughts of this great man.
He was a journalist. He *wasn't* the Messiah, he was a VERY NAUGHTY BOY.
@@mikerodent3164 😂😂😂👍
Space
@@mikerodent3164and you are a rodent, it fits.
You can have the same experience multiplied by infinity at your finger tips by going on the internet.
As always Hitch makes an excellent point. A can't think of a more sadly missed public intellectual.
I agree, although I personally rate George Carlin and John Pilger as highly as Hitch. All of them sadly gone. But not forgotten, thankfully.
Hi everyone who's watching this now. :)
Hi :)
"Do you want a state for Jews or do you want a Jewish state?" As a secular Jew who's always wondered what a "Jewish state" really means, that is incredibly clarifying . . . because you can answer yes to the first question and no to the second.
No to both Bud
@@bunkomcdungoof course the reality is you can't not have both. Clearly israel now exists.
The question must be how to balance the two needs, and how to throw off the extremists on both sides.
@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000 Well, the extremists in Palestine, Hamas, have been propped up by Netanyahu's government because they are the best obstacle to peace and a two-state solution. Hard-line Israelis don't want a two-state solution because it means they have to give up land and power that they want.
In order to create a balanced solution you'd have to first throw off the Netanyahu government, as well as any other hardliners. Then you'd have to destroy Hamas twofold: first by starving them of the human rights violations they use to justify their own atrocities, and second by uplifting more moderate factions in Palestine. The Palestinian people need an alternative between Israeli brutality and Hamas's savagery, and neither of those two factions want to give it to them.
Cuts into theocracy vs secular state too.
@@jrm13
Do you suggesting if Hamas was secular moral resistance group, that would make Israel not do what they do and done in the past?
Of course not, Israel problem is not Hamas, it’s Palestinian existence.
Palestinian authority in the west bank, what do they get for not using violence against occupied regime? Nothing.
The problem is Israel, and the solution for now is on the hand of Israel.
There will never be another Christopher Hitchens.
Good man, logical and well reasoned.
And sadly totally wrong.
@@Sanctified57 How so?
God it feels like a lifetime ago. This man is so missed.
Missed for what? Rubbish
@@user-fl5pr4lc4o Don't be that person.
Oh dear responder. What a shame ! You think little of his views, but you can't resist tuning in to hear what his 'take' is on the situation. You're really mesmerised by his intelligence- aren't you. You're really a closet admirer are you not 😅😅
I'm glad Christopher brought up the comparison between Pakistan and Israel
One of the greatest loss of the entire humanity :( I miss this man
If your definition of a "greatest loss" is someone who was obsessed with making bigoted rants about religion any chance he could, I guess you would think that.
@@CJ-eo2yj No one listens when you talk mate. You aren't worthy of carrying Hitch's jockstrap.
reading a rational comment like yours is a breath of fresh air to me. on youtube its freakin absurd how many people chant their demonising slogans & don't bother to do their research.
A timely find. Excellent.
HERE'S A BETTER, AND EASIER TO READ, TRANSCRIPT (than the auto one in the description) -
'Well, it's always good to be asked to begin by straightening out the Israel/Palestine question. [Audience laughter.] Why don't we get that out of the way?
I think there's a distinction you're failing to make, and it's actually, if I may say it, clarified a little in 'Dieu n'est pas grand' {'God is not Great'} [audience laughter], available in all good bookshops everywhere, including the one we're in now.
Israeli archaeology, which I think is a very courageous and honest profession, in particular Professor Finkelstein, the Head of the department at the University of Tel Aviv, has clarified it for us.
The story of the Exodus, the wandering in the Sinai, the conquest of Jericho, and so on, is all balls from beginning to end. It’s completely, fantastically made up. There isn’t a word of truth in it. And it’s just as well it isn’t true, because if it were true it would involve divine instruction for genocide and enslavement, as well as genital mutilation and a lot of other things without which we could well do.
However, Israeli archaeology, well, many Jews say ‘Come on, if none of it is true, the whole Moses thing is made up, can’t you give me anything to cling to?’. Well, yes. If you go and dig in Palestine, the first thing that any archaeologist will do, going to a village, will be dig in the midden, dig in the rubbish dump, and find out what people threw away, and when, and in what order. It’s very, very interesting always. In certain hill communities, way, way back, you will find that while all the other neighbouring villages don’t have any - do have, excuse me, - do have pig bones in their middens and their [unclear], and these villages don’t. No pigs. That’s not the only proof, but it’s one of many.
There have been Jewish people in Palestine for a very long time. Their claim for the right to live there is as good as anybody else’s, and better than some. But, the question is this, and it was posed by many Jewish spokesmen from the very beginning of the enterprise, when Herzel first mooted it: do you want a state for Jews in Palestine, or do you want a Jewish State?
Now just ponder this for a second - now since I’m stuck with this I may as well absolutely clarify it - here’s what I mean by that distinction. Should Pakistan be what it was first claimed to be, a state for Muslims of India, so Muslims feel safe in there, or should it be a Muslim State, where everyone has to follow Muslim law, and where if you’re not a Muslim you don’t really have real rights? And that’s the difference that Zionism attempts to blur, and I think it would be better off unblurred. And there you go.
But of course, I mean I need hardly add, no one else’s claim to the land is any better. That goes without . . . cela va sans dire.
'
Thanks for this! Where you have '[unclear]' I'm pretty sure he translates the title of his book into French: 'Dieu n'est pas grand' ['God is not Great'].
@@aaroneames7663 Thanks. I think you're right, and have amended the transcript accordingly.
I feel the need to get that book back off the shelf.
Glad to see you got the 2X Solar. How are you finding the font size on the screen? Is it readable for you?
The lady's smile goes through an interesting character arc in this video.
Clear and well spoken.
One of the great speakers of our time. Sadly missed.
Bahahahha
As far as I'm concerned, he, so far, is THEE greatest speaker of the 21st century--a true legend.
@@forestdweller8164 Could well be.
@@petergianakopoulos4926 I can see you're obviously equally eloquent Peter.
@@iiredeyeiiredeye1569 I have a plethora of responses. They would speak .. volumes. A tour de force. I'm a member of the avant gard.
Greatest explanation yet!
Territorial claims tend to obscure an important distinction between, on the one hand, political soverignty over a territory, and, on the other hand, individual ownership of a parcel of land.
If a Palestinian owns a house and an olive grove in the yard, Israeli soverignty over the territory encompassing the house and grove do not justify violation of the Palestinian's ownership.
Tumbling Palestinian-owned houses and groves to make way for settlements are acts of ethnic cleansing. Hating Hamas's criminal terrorism and murder does not obligate me to turn a blind eye.
Yes he was incredibly knowledgeable - and sensible
His legacy to us all: THINK!
Can someone summarize what he just said ?? I cant seem to understand it well . My English is weak
The biblical stories of Moses are fiction.
Zionists in Israel make their claim to the land based on fictitious stories.
Jews have an equal right to be there and to be part of a State, but it should not be a religious State that protects only the rights of Jews "... a State for Jews or a Jewish State..."
Zionism blurs this by claiming they have a democracy among a bunch of savages, but there is no equality for the people of the land.
It's a very eloquent and timely statement that speaks volumes about today, even though it is just a clip, out of context from a much longer conversation.
Thanks,
I think you can take his ending there to mean a couple things.
I think some might be reading it as a pretty tepid criticism of Israel, and I suppose it is to most people...
Basically saying that a JEWISH religious state is in principle no better from the Caliphate.
Now... I believe he's talking principles here, and not for a moment do I believe he would IN PRACTICE have even a moment's hesitation in admitting he'd rather have a Jewish state that at least pays lipservice to secularism than a government that is expressly religiously genocidal. I don't think he was hiding the ball here... I just think he knows that if he starts making difinitive statements on the subject, he WILL be talking about it all night, and possibly for months to come. This subject matter just swallows people whole if they make the news cycle.
The Other thing he seems to be saying here, I think he is looking at it in terms of messaging... and I think he values a clarity of messaging. Again, he seems to be criticising Israel when he says that they are blurring lines.
What he means by that is that Israel is the most secular place in the Middle East. But are they Secular? Well... depends on who you ask.
If you ask me, Israel is as secular as their enemies will allow. If Israel were TRULY secular, they would have serious problems with migrant terroristm.
So Israel CANNOT be truly secular... but they advertise their secularism to the world.
I, personally don't have a problem with this. I think grown-ups can figure out that Israel is as secular as they can manage (and they advertise this to it's allies in the world), and Palestine is as extremist as they can manage (while they propagandize fools around the world into thinking they are no worse than Israel).
So to me, it's rather stupid to include Israel in a false equivalence and say they aren't living up to the ideology they claim to represent. He's right that they fall a bit short, but comparing that to the politics of Palestine/Hamas... no. I call foul on mentioning it in the same sentence.
BUT, I suppose Hitchens thinks of himself as a more long-term thinker than I. He believes that blurring the line between a "Jewish State" and the "Secular State" it tries to be simply turns people off to the idea of secularism as not only a virtue... but a global mandate. Hitchens and I are both secularists, don't get me wrong... but that part of the world, it's just silly to expect true secularism to flourish. You DO NOT flourish in that area of the world without big strong walls, big strong sticks, AND the right to keep the enemy out of your country.
It's like my grandpa jokes, "Violence doesn't solve anything but your problems."
Is violence the ideal? Of course not, but weakness, honesty, and integrity can be every bit as evil as violence if it's directed to the wrong party.
At the end of the day, we're talking about war, and true secularism isn't on the menu. It's Jews or Hamas... and I do believe if Hitchens were alive today, he wouldn't shy away from that, and he would once again not have much to say on the subject because it IS rather obvious. Palestine IS Hamas... always has been... that's why when Hamas killed 1000+ innocent civilian Jews, PALESTINIANS AROUND THE WORLD DANCED AND SANG IN THE STREET... in FREE COUNTRIES.
Some would have you believe that Palestine is under the heel of Hamas... and that they voted in Hamas, and Hamas then had themselves a hostile takeover, and that's possible... but if that were the case, what were the celebrations about?
If Palestine TRULY opposes Hamas, they're clearly dead... like worldwide.
Hitchens, I'm sure, had the utmost moral clarity even back then... but it was such a daunting discussion you couldn't help but bunt it if you have other subjects you intend to cover. Today, in the last 3 months, the clarity has come in in 16k. Today, it only takes a minute or 2 to make it very clear that Hamas needs to die, there is no Palestine, and Israel is conducting the most ethical* military operation in the history of the world.
*In fact, if anyone should be complaining about Israel's military right now, it would be the Israelis. A lot of them believe Oct 7th was a False Flag event, and I'm unaware of any strong evidence of that claim... but the circumstances WERE certainly suspicious enough to say that the conspiracy theorists on this subject are NOT crazy tin-foil-hat Simpsons Cat-Ladies.
The charter doesn't exist anymore, not since January 2006. The refugee issue emerged immediately in the aftermath of the 1948 war, beginning with UNSCR 194.
We don't suffer from intolerance. We suffer from tolerance.
Colonial oppressor logic
Who is the author of this quote?
@@joekonopka2363your right,we shouldn't tolerate the existence of the state of Turkey they are colonizers.
@@bella3008 Fulton Sheen. His wisdom was legendary.
@@joekonopka2363 Don't be a simpleton. research the argument and understand it before sloganeering.
Never really read him up before but a very clear speaker on difficult situations 😕
Well worth checking out more of his stuff.
i'm trying to learn more about the israel/palestine conflict. one question i have is, what percentage of the jews in the region claim a religious right to be there, and what percentage claim a secular, historical right to be there?
Bro it is just the fundamentalist fuckers always when it comes to sustained apartheid. Be it white ideology or Judeo-fascist ideology. Ask savvy non-Israeli western jews (I can't say Ben Shapiro is the perp but he had ties to Israeli suppliers of info re 'liberal' synagogues to neonazi blacklists - specifically the 'tie' went on to be Israeli Foreign Minister) or now at this point in history, the effing Jewish non-settler populace lol! Those settler fuckers are at least temporarily attempting to occupy Israel proper.
Israel is a very small state by any standard.
@@darbyheavey406not the question she was asking
It's an interesting question, but besides the point, perhaps? It depends on who you ask, though I doubt even the secular ones draw a hard line between ethnicity and religion.
There are observant Jews, who probably see the state as founded on religion, and secular Jews, who probably see it as a community founded on ethnicity and tradition. But if you must be ethnically Jewish to belong fully to the religion, lol? And if the tradition that binds the secular Jews to the community is religious in nature? The distinction collapses.
Regardless, every one of them wants a home for the Jewish people. That's the main thing. The justifications are secondary to that wish. And if we are wary of Israel morphing into a fundamentalist state, well... no faction close to power is suggesting to make religious practice mandatory. There are orthodox communities within Israel, and if you want to stay there, you have to follow religious law. But you are free to leave and live as a secular Jew without having to exit the country. A national equivalent to sharia law seems extremely unlikely.
Hitchens has a need to jab at religion. It is getting the best of him here. The Jews have proven themselves exceptionally good at secularism.
No such thing as a religious right to be anywhere. There is no such thing as rightful ownership of land. There is only temporary occupation. Everyone is temporarily occupying the land that they're on.
are those jews living in the settlements in the west bank any more religious than jews generally? in other words do most jews in the settlements claim a divine right to be there? also, is netenyahu relgious? does he claim any divine rights regarding the land?
Who else is waching this in 2023 after being fed up with msm?
Christopher Hitchens is sorely missed!
As far as Zionist are concerned,Palestinian is the new name for Canaanite,and we all know how that ended.Think,how many Canaanites have you meet?
Holdin Down More accurately, the modern Palestinian is in a similar situation as Philistine.
Philistines were people who came from somewhere else, and attempted to whipe out some other new arrival, the Hebrews, who did have roots there earlier. The Israelis got the situation under control but it was a super power that eventually knocked off the Philistines.
Philistine also means 'invader'. 😉
So back to Canaanites. Like the modern Palestinians, the Canaanites sacrificed the kids to their gods. At least those who follow Hamas etx do the same.
@G L.C Is the Bible the only sourse that records The Philistine? Is the Bible completely negative toward them? Re: David's refuge with one of the Philistine kings.
@G L.C ...it doesn't paint non-Hebrew as evil....Some where and some where not and The Bible even calls out the Hebrew people as such when they started from The Lord.
Is Cyrus The Great viewed as evil?
Sounds like you need to return to the junction that you took an incorrect turn on.
@G L.C ....and Rehab, Ruth, those that took in young Moses, Potifar..Moses' in-laws...
@G L.C ...then again, comparing Hebrews to Third Reich leadership is kind of backward seeing it was Haj Al-Husseini who met with Hitler and promised to finish off what Hitler started.
Very current!
Miss the Hitch 🤘
wishing he was still here now!
I'd love to see a peaceful end to the conflict,but I'd also like to see them stop oppressing the Palestinians!✌❤🇬🇧
[cont.]
well that churchill quote was the very same article where he stated that zionism was Against communism.
lebzelter stated that churchill's "commie-jew" analysis failed to analyze the role that russian oppression of Jews had played in their joining various revolutionary movements, but instead "to inherent inclinations rooted in jewish character & religion." [political antisemitism in england: 1918-1939. macmillan, st anthony's college, oxford. pp. 181]
u did say ur happy to listen & learn.
Rip hitchens
I can't imagine this talk went over very well in NYC
How apt
Oh how we miss you.
Love Christopher Hitchens, and we so need more like him today, or even *anyone* like him… but of course we all can be wrong. I'm wondering if his reference to claims from the Israeli archaeologist Finkelstein re: the false historical basis for the Exodus story have been borne out over the last decade or so. Don't give me an answer if you don't know, but I sure am curious.
I hate it when the "parties of God" war against each other.
What is his opinion on the Argentine/Falklands dispute?
Dont think he commented on it during his lifetime. As an advocate for democracy though. I expect he is alligned to the british. After all the falkland islands wanted to be british.
@@TheIfifi And Israel wants to be Jewish. So what is your point?
@@synagogueofsteak5006 Why bringing Israel into this?
@@synagogueofsteak5006 *the millions of jewish settlers that colonized it over a hundred year period and deny democratic representation to its non-jewish inhabitants want to be jewish
Mr Hitchens is extraordinarily honest in admitting that, according to archeological finds carried out by Israeli archaeologists, the Israelites do not have sole claim to the land that is now Israel. (This was also understood/explained by Edward Said.) It is a point, that, of course, many commentators seem not to have understood.
Very interesting to see his answers now that there's a full blown war now and how the media is portraying it too.
I'd say Palestinians whose grandparents were evicted from the territory have a strong claim than Israelis who might have had ancestors from the territory 1000 years ago, or whatever. But also the people who were actually born in Israel have a strong claim.
It is insulting to Hitchens for you to suggest his honesty in the matter is extraordinary, I don't recall Hitchens ever being known for lying.
@@fledgendbeats4581 Ha ha, there's been a full-blown war against the Palestinians for 75 years.
Not what you think it is. Nothing he said really diminishes Israel's claim. Israel lived in Judea and Samaria for centuries and other people lived in and around that same region at various points in time. Who were the other peoples? Various ethnic and religious groups, none which can be directly traced to any present-day people or nation. The Jewish people are the only people claiming the land who can trace their history back to the land.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question.
Great group
Even if everything in the bible is false. We know that There was a kingdom of Isreal in Roman times. We know it was there during the time of the Greek/Persian Selucid Empire, and we are pretty damn sure that it was there during the reign of Assyria and Babylon. It may not go back to before the Bronze age but it sure as hell pre dates anything else in the region. Its historical even if its not religious. The Greeks won back their independance from the ottomans in the early 19th century. You could have argued that non of them had any real conection to the ancient Greeks of 400BC. And yet everyone was on board. Do the modern Iranians have any true links to the achaemenid Persians? should arabs get to take their land?
On what basis would you claim Greeks & Iranians don't have a direct connection to their ancestors??!
It's cool to see "Hitch" and Norman Finkelstein in the same intimate room.
We all miss you chris
He always insisted on being called Christopher.
@@Berniewahlbrinck🤣
do you have any views on the israeli settlements in the west bank?
This is why it was called the "Hitch slap"!
Sadly missed. What a great mind.
What a brilliant point. A state for Muslims or a Muslim state.
"The myth of Jewish Communism was one of the most popular and widespread political prejudices in the first half of the 20th century, in Eastern Europe in particular." [Gerrits, 'The Myth of Jewish Communism: A Historical Interpretation' Peter Lang, 2009, p.195]
In the Russian Revolution (1917) "the Bolshevik party had about 10,000 members, of whom 364 were Jews." [Beyond the Pale; Kara-Murza, 'Revolutionary Political Forces between February and October." Soviet Civilization. Vol. 1.'].
[cont.]
If I understand this question correctly the Palestinians don't want either a state for jews or a jewish state. And that is the problem, thank you to the great Mr Hitchens.
Not exactly. Hamas doesn't want any Jews at all. They want to eliminate all Jews, not just their state.
And I would separate Hamas from Palestinians. Most Palestinians probably just want to live in peace. Their state has been hijacked by Hamas, which is a radical terrorist group.
You are leaving out the part of that state being the land of the Palestinians.
@@facetofloor You mean the current state of Israel? Where Jews have lived for thousands of years? Jews didn't just show up when the modern state of Israel was created in 1948.
Jews deserve to have a homeland where they can defend themselves and not be victims like they were in European pogroms of the 20th century and earlier. They are the only democracy in the region. They grant full rights to non-Jews who live in Israel. And they have shown up at the "two-state solution" negotiation table numerous times. Always it is the Palestinians who walk away. The Jews are willing to share the land. The Palestinians just want them dead.
Not this time.
@@yayayoma "Jews didn't just show up when the modern state of Israel was created in 1948" - Yes they did and were encouraged to do so. Also they arrived in mass during the 30s leading up to the nakba in 48. Don't twist history to fit your narrative.
If jews deserve to have a homeland then it should have been created somewhere in Europe, not as a colonial project on arab land who historically had been nothing but welcoming to them.
@@DrDanQ92no Jews have been there as long or longer then Palestinians. It’s a melting pot and most of the Palestinians showed up when the Jews were coming back to the land in 1900’s because businesses started coming back and money was to be made.
By some extremely bizarre coincidence, is that Bo Burnham in the back at 0:36?
Y no comments
The Temple Mount is still there. Of course it's originally Jewish.
2. Intelligent brothers
Outspoken speaking with facts
Great knowledge of history
Need people like them
It will bring back England ❤❤
Always spot on their subjects
Why can't politicians
Talking common sense with facts
Have noticed
Outspoken speaking leaving the government
Except Israel doesn’t require one to be Jewish to have citizenship. There are around 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel with full rights.
Is there a single Arab country with a thriving Jewish community left?
This must have been around 2002. He died in 2011.
I miss this man
Hitchens, for whom even as a Christian I’ve long had admiration for calling out religious hypocrisy, can’t speak for very long without religion bashing. It’s his MO.
By the way, whether anyone reads the Bible or not, historically and archeologically there is evidence Jews were operating as a nation state in Israel a couple of millennia ago. Yet Islam, very young in comparison, claims all the land as its own.
Palestine and the surrounding Arab states don’t want a state for Jews, nor a Jewish state.
Take the time to read about the 5 times there’s been attempts to seek a two-state solution and who, even with favored conditions, rejected it all 5 times.
And then read about the final statement from the Arab states:
“Khartoum Resolution known as "The Three No's"; No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel.[1] The summit also resolved that the "oil-rich Arab states" give financial aid to the states who lost the war and to "help them rebuild their military forces."[2] The final communique of the meeting "underscored the Palestinians' right to regain the whole of Palestine-that is, to destroy the State of Israel."[3] The outcome of this summit influenced Israeli foreign policy for decades.[4]”
So No three times to any notion of peace or resolution. The Arab states don’t want Jews. Period. It’s hard to deny after 10/7/23.
Why didn't the Arabs want to give me their land? Who tf would want their land stolen from them? No one. There are a lot of european states and they want to keep them. Why didn't the europeans who committed the Holocaust give one of their states to the Jewish people?
That woman in the black dress totally has the hots for Hitchens.
A professor of Hebrew and Jewish Studies from New York University disputes Hitchens' claim here, in an article in the Jerusalem Post from 2022, the same paper that ran Professor Finkelstein's anti-Exodus account around 15 years earlier........"Is the Bible's story of the Jewish exodus from Egypt accurate?", 3/10/22
This is the case. Israelis have an enormously long but not continuous history in the Holy Land (more recently named Palestine). Yet others have history there too. They must learn somehow to get along.
Agree. Israel are no better than Russia, they will not stop until they have taken Palestine.
This is the perfect video at this time to clarify my position on the middle east... I couldn't give a fuck.
Why the distinction? When that's your attitude to everything going on in the world and around you personally.
@@johnnymittle I don't understand the question
He would have a hard time with this today.
How can any group claim ownership of a holy land? If the teachings of your religions were virtuous, you would find a way to share this land and it would be free of conflict. There would be lines drawn on the map and it would be marked "holy land." All would be welcome and no country would claim it. Instead I see pious people call for the death of their neighbours.
Good distinction for my own understanding: a Jewish State or a State for Jews. Clarify Clarify Clarify. Anti-semitic? Or anti-Israel? It is such a broadly misunderstood set of terms. As I told my doctoral students: you’ve got to create your Glossary of Terms so we will know what you are talking about. This practice should be taught rigorously from primary grades, and up.
All land is stolen land. It all comes down to who's the better thief. This can even include which thief has the better manners.
Exactly. Look at Europe - the maps have been changing constantly for centuries, with conquest after conquest (theft after theft).
Can you imagine what Hitchens would think of Trump? Holy shit!
He would laugh at your TDS
As far as I am aware, Abraham moved from Mesopotamia (Southern Iraq area) to the area of Israel. There it is claimed that a mythical being, the existence of which there is no evidence, aka God, told him that he and his descendants are promised the land known as Israel. This has fed into modern-day Zionism. The right of people to exist should, in principle, be supported. However, I just wonder if it is the Nation and Land claim on the basis of mythology that has contributed to the challenges against Jews. If I were to make the same land claims where I live (a similar distance form where I was born), I would expect to meet a certain amount of resistance, if only ridicule and possible hospitalisation.
God then also kicks the children of Israel out due to wickedness. Jews also hate Jesus and attack him and claim he is in hell in their religious book, the Talmud
Their mythology also includes a story of genocide to displace the original inhabitants, which negates any rights to the land in my view.
Does the Bible mention the British Empire or the League of Nations? That promised the land to them.
You have to give the man credit. He seems to be quite professional, riding his authoritative bicycle down the edge of the razor blade without falling to either side..
Did we really learn anything here?
Problem is Nazijihad. Jews have their nation, respect it.
"I know there are Jews who are different.." - its like saying "kurds who are different but they are usually hated by their tribe". basically, some are different to others, but the others won't like it. lol
most jews, including zionists, aren't "tribal", they take their nationalism, or religion, with a pinch of salt. i am one & met more jews than u have. so consider the option at least.
btw, a lot of trotskyists, anarchists & zionists were as moral as anyone, all 3 labels hav countless versions.
That part of the world would be the ideal place to FORCE real "Separation of Church and State".
Religion started when the first conman met the first fool. ❤️✌️
No, that's the end of religion. The start of religion is the start of human consciousness itself, in it's ultimate indifferenciation between you and me, or us and the world
The moment you delve into the realm of morality, you are discussing theology and therefore speaking in religious terms. Evolved bacteria don’t have morals.
@@danielalexander3406
Many are destined to reason wrongly; others, not to reason at all; and others to persecute those who do reason.
@@danielalexander3406I can't fathom being alive now, in 2023, and arguing "people have morals" LOL
please do feel free to ask me any more questions my friend.
almost all jews claim a historical right to be there. usually in the perspective of: the jews had Less of a right of autonomy & self-determination in any other place in comparison, as in israel there's the historical/archeological connection & some indigenous jews that never left the place.
secular jews are israel's biggest demographic, &about half of those are atheist jews.
less than half of israel's jews are religious, but many are.
You are dearly missed Hitch.
He’s not and he knows the answer about God now
@@divemylollol6152 he’s missed by me and several people I know.
no. i'm an atheist zionist jew, and a secularist. and i'm pro-2-state solution, pro-peace & pro-equality. why?
How can you be both an atheist and a jew? Or do you mean an atheist of jewish ancestry?
@@gabalw.3992 "How can you be both an atheist and a jew?" - first, as an intro, half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of god. For just a short introduction to our people, you can check out this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
To underline some points of my own, of relevance - Jews are a people, an ancient nation scattered across the globe, from the historical records of [Assyrian/Babylonian/Persian/Roman] exiles out of Israel, and some of the Jews staying in their homeland Israel the whole time. 'Jews' the identity, is not a "nation" in the modern sense like the European invention of modern nations. but its more kind of like in Iraq they have the minority group 'Assyrians' - an ancient nation - also now scattered across the globe from attempted genocide by daesh. but also with some still in their homeland.
What constitutes the identity characteristics of a nation? 1. Common language/s 2. Common history 3. Common roots, historical homeland 4. Common cultural traits 5. Often, also common religion. Jews have all these traits.
Now the religion itself - fun fact, the Jewish People is itself much older than the Jewish religion. The one god was introduced to Israelites quite late in their history. Canaanite pagan religions were the trend of the day. Mainstream monotheism to God fully ingrained through our whole nation was even as late the period of ancient Persian empire's conquest of Israel/Judea (what in those times was the semi-autonomous zone of Yehud Medinata).
Since then, Talmud changed the religion to be much more tolerant and accepting, much less backward and primitive e.g. the Jewish nation has not stoned gays & pagans to death since the days of the Romans, 2000 years ago. No capital punishment by Jews since then.
Many centuries ago, Baruch Spinoza - an ancient Jewish philosopher - questioned the authority of the Torah as the complete source of truth from god's words, and claimed it to be not. The first openly non-religious Jew, you could say. Bible questioner and denier. He was also the one who led and inspired later philosophers to begin the European Enlightenment era.
I'd even say there's a characteristically Jewish element in atheistic thinking, since days much earlier than Spinoza. Rabbinical tradition of Talmud encourages open-minded thinking, questioning, debate among others.
Bottom line, people's identities can enrich & diversify & re-form & reflect & develop through time and space, when you stretch it to thousands of years.
Ça va sans dire!
I miss this charismatic man.
This is an old video I realize but since he touches on the subject of 'a state where Jews are safe to live as they wish' vs 'should Israel be a Jewish state where the Jewish faith is imposed?' In Israel's defence; they do allow muslims and christians (and atheists like Hitchens) to live as they so choose. You are not required to adhere to the Jewish faith in other words. In the surrounding muslim countries this is quite different. That's why you'll find that 20% of the Israeli are muslim (Palestinians) but there are 0 Jews in Gaza.
But I think I read that they can be a resident but not a citizen...?
@@giddygrub7176 The vast majority are full citizens just like Jews. There are also Arab Israelis in the Knesset, the Israeli parlement. You are right that not all are citizens, some groups have not applied to become citizen and are permanent residents instead. From wikipedia;
"Under Israeli law, Arab residents of East Jerusalem and Druze residents of the Golan Heights (both Israeli-occupied territories) have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights; this status is upheld due to Israel's effective annexation of the former through the Jerusalem Law of 1980 and of the latter through the Golan Heights Law of 1981.[23] Both groups have largely foregone applying for Israeli citizenship, with the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the Syrians of the Golan Heights mostly holding residency status."
Then there are Palestinians from Gaza and the Westbank that have only work permits in Israel but are neither residents nor citizens.
@@janruudschutrups9382 thank you for your reply, there is so much to wade through and it's hard to know what is accurate (though I'm generally not a fan of Wikipedia I have to say).
@@giddygrub7176 You're welcome 🙂. Yes, I can understand, especially with these complex subjects one can easily feel overwhelmed by all the history of it and how many events are interconnected. I understand your point about wikipedia, it's always good practise to verify data and not rely solely on one source. 👍
Excellent comment.
It’s a distinction that plays well in a book shop - not so much in real life. History suggests that there is no such thing as a ‘state for Jews,’ at least not in the long term. Hence the need for a Jewish state.