@@aaronwishard7093 oh sure do the standard MtG thing and just insult the playerbase of your biggest competitor. Y'all have always been elitists so why should I expect anything different.
How is that out of Coder, Farfa and Gage that GAGE was the reasonable one and actually wanted to listen instead of just mindlessly laughing like Farfa whenever something came that he doesn't know😅
this episode is just coder and farfa stonewalling mbt from like, explaining the idea of a rotation is at all and gage actually wanting to talk about it. incredible content
@@TheDocperian just ask any MTG player they'll tell you the same thing. They play everything BUT standard format which is the rotation format. Commander and Modern are all that's played in paper from what I've been able to gather.
@@LuxLikeGaming There was a debate though? Everyone made solid points - even the criticism from Coder was valid and would need to be ironed out if rotation became a thing. The only poor thing was Farfa being dismissive about Magic. I don't know the cards either, but if you're going to have a discussion about set rotation, looking at card games that do set rotation successfully is necessary.
@@colossaldonut5190 You actually didnt listen and 10people liking...damn. There is no reason for yugioh to not have BOTH. If farfa wants to play ba but ba is not in the rotation right now then he plays ba in the regular/wild format. Hearthstone, pokemon, magic all have this possibility all have a wild and standard Format where wild is absolutely insane in power lvl because you have access to every card which is basically the only formats we had in yugioh. Tcg/ocg/md are all wild formats.
@@Pkey995 no they aren't because they're forced to actually be balanced thru the banlist. Wild format in hearthstone is like every degen card on ygos banlist set free.
@@ttkrystal8329 The banlist is here to sell new products not to balance the game. If you think banning maybe 3cards limiting 10card meanwhile 100 new cards are out is anywhere near "balancing" then you re coping hard. Yes wild format is a mess just like yugioh is. And hearthstone got its problem aswell but at least they try to balance their game. Lor has rotated too. They got a standard and eternal format aswell now. Yugioh is just printing non stop new cards with no way to nerf if they messed up something. I mean I think they dont care anymore. They just continue and think "they are addicted they will buy our products anyways" and it works.
MBT said that his new approach to youtube is rotating series every few months. It prevents things from getting stale, and it also stops him from having to be committed to something that doesn't get many views. If they kept continuing this series they would run out of topics and the viewers would dwindle, and then it would just be randomly canceled.
I can't exactly blame them because every alternative format Konami has introduced either doesn't get support or gets dominated by a single deck or strategy.
@@marciamakesmusic I don't get the point you're attempting to make. I understand that Magic has several different formats, but like I said, Konami is extremely bad at supporting them and/or have genuinely terrible rules or lack of any mitigation. Like Common Charity, where the best thing you could be doing in that format is play Gouki. Deck Master format is exclusively Last Warrior from Another Planet stall. Hell, we only recently got Speed Duel ban lists just a couple years ago. A format, to my knowledge, that doesn't even have side event status at regionals.
@@AllThingsEntertaining they seem to be doing pretty good with Edison. "Konami bad" is not an argument as to why set rotation is bad. WotC is an equally dogshit company and I don't really like standard in MtG. But you know what's worse than standard? Legacy
this is so funny to watch as somebody who's primary game is Magic. Nobody has any problems with rotation here because we have a rotating format and multiple non-rotating formats, all of which can lead you to the highest level of competition.
Which works because magic maintains multiple different formats and does not force standard (anymore). So if you dont want to play standard, like the vast majority of MTG players, you can just play Eternal. I dont trust Konami to run more than one format.
I know this series probably really hard to plan for everyone to record with but i don't mind if mbt continue this series as a MONTHLY PLEASE DON'T AXE THIS SERIES PLEASEEEE
For real, please don’t cancel this series, I just discovered it on Friday and binged all the episodes. Just to find out todays upload is the last? No thanks!
There is also the issue of them needing something to debate. Realistically, they've tackled most of the worthwile things to discuss, so the quality of the series would decline until it hits the point of just debating opinions on the latest top deck or some konami controversy, turning it into a discount yugioh news podcast at best.
I honestly wish Yugioh had more formats like MTG does. Like in MD, the N/R event was super fun and was basically the equivalent of MTG's Pauper format, and people make a ton of their own custom formats to breathe some life into the game, so it's not so far-fetched to say Yugioh can't have formats like this. The issue is always that Konami just doesn't want to support anything not Advanced.
Wizards doesn't support alternative formats either. They're literally fan formats. Yugioh WOULD have more formats, if they players wanted to. That's what happened with MtG. People hated the game so much that they decided to create their own rules, their own ban lists, and even their own game mechanics.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 Technically we do have a bunch of fan formats in yugioh now as well, though they're mostly stuff like progression that Yugitubers have helped to spawn 🤔
What i think would fix Yu-Gi-Oh! Difficult barrier of entry would be making atleast 3 level of format. >Junior format, wich is a format that only allows cards realeased in a span of a year. >Intermediate format, wich allows cards only released within 5 years or less And >Senior format, which allows ALL CARDS throughout Yu-Gi-Oh's History, granted they are not banned.(obviously the one considered as the premium format) I don't know if any cardgame implement something similar, but this is how i see it should be done.
As someone who plays MTG and YGO I understand all of what Joseph is saying. But since this is a yugioh channel, I am surprised that he dropped so many mtg card and set names to an audience where many will not know these names
He really didn't name that much. He named really famous stuff. As much as I hate MTG I understand what "Bolt" is and understand the reverance for Ravnica and its return. Just saying "Bolt is like smashing ground" should be enough.
It's not like he talked about things like Block constructed, a now dead format, he used the names of the most well known things in MTG. I feel it was a bigger tell that Farfa and Coder have never tried another TCG with their reactions.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 Yeah, but that still requires more knowledge about MTG than a lot of people know. I think Pokemon has more widely known points of reference since people meme about its draw power and iconic stuff like Bill, but I'm not sure if MBT knows enough to be able to pull some of those references in.
@@Asmodean1111 Idk, Farfa seemed to know Hearthstone, and that's essentially a TCG with set rotation, they just didn't know how MTG and its tournaments work 🤔
He didn't say all that much at all. I dont know Magic but I understood what he meant to say by context alone. Coder and Farfa were just not willing to listen at all. Thats all
When Joseph made the point about people not playing yugioh cause it's too complicated to get in to and how set rotation would allow the game to become simpler he was so right and I got a fucking aneurysm listening to coder argue against that
Master Duel is the perfect example of this. Just look at how many newcomers and returning players dropped the game shortly after launch due to the complicated nature of modern yugioh.
@@shipu302 I'm one of them. I played magic for years and knew the rules pretty well but the basics of a modern yugioh deck are all comically long combos and I just have better shit to do
It's great too because then you only need to memorize three or four decks fully to completely understand every popular deck in the format, rather than randomly facing someone's pet archetype whose last piece of support was in 2015
Coder was way too dismissive, he was like a brick wall. It was actually infuriating how much insight MBT and Gage were bringing to the the discussion and Coder just disregards it because "Muh pet deck" and "what do you mean I have to check the type of tournament I sign up for"
to be fair, his points are the same as at least 75% of the yugioh playerbase, there is a reason why Commander won over standard in mtg, people love "Muh pet deck", especially, in yugioh.
Farfa was way more infuriating to me but I just dont like him in general. The entire time MBT and Gage are trying to use Magic as an example he tries to shut it down because he's too fucking stupid to understand how anything but Yugioh works. Literally the least helpful or engaging member of a debate I've ever fucking watched. At least Coder tried to understand the Magic analogy.
Coder represents the average Yu-Gi-Oh player who is so resistant to change that they plug their ears and yell "lalalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you" lmao, actually hilarious to see such a simple concept executed by EVERY OTHER CARD GAME not be understood, and then the person confused doesn't let the people with level-headed takes explain it further. Incredible content
@@Badbufon while this is partially true, Standard died because WotC began prioritizing Commander over Standard with a barrage of Commander-exclusive products and basically overhauling every Standard set to be full of Commander cards. They also phased out Grand Prixs and Magic Fests, removing any competitive incentive to want to grind the premiere format. Then, Arena comes along with Alchemy, Historic, etc, that are all much more enticing offers. Not to mention how they stopped professional coverage as well. It's like if Yu-Gi-Oh cancelled every future YCS, stopped professional coverage, then started printing every core set to support Edison and Goat format. That's precisely what happened with Magic. It's no surprise why Standard failed when the mothership did basically everything in its power to kill it. EDH was a grassroots format that didn't get officially supported until years after gaining traction and even when it was supported it was pretty small. It wasn't until very recently that there was a huge boom in popularity, and even now the power levels of average decks have started to push many players out, myself included. It's unregulated, like sitting down for casual YGO and not discussing power levels.
Everybody was so passionate about their take that there had to be something up, like that there is no one concealing their true opinion, but this was a banger of a last episode! Gonna miss Magical Hats, curious what you're rotating into
As someone who plays both games, it was a blessing to hear MBT and Gage talking about it. A second format with rotation is exactly what Yu-Gi-Oh needs. Plus as mentioned, 2023 core set can have the reprints and YCSs can have multiple formats.
This episode was so good it makes me upset we won't get more. Unless there is going to be a season 2 with other creators which could be cool. Doug, DuelLogs, TeamSamurai
Rest in peace Magical Hats ft Coder, Farfa, and Gage This was an awesome series, and I understand why you're rotating it out. Excited for what you make next, MBT!
@@reddragon9064 Another Yugituber Dkayed, used a clicked bait title "Legal cheating" and Coder calls him out for spreading cheats, drama insues. There were twitter threads, response videos. Then coder got banned because falsely accuse another player of cheating is against Konami rules. At the end of the day neither of them (and their community) handled the situation well, and the whole thing was unnecessary
I actually really liked this series. Do you think you could actually make a yugioh podcast where you could discuss those topics in further detail. I think the yu-gi-oh community could greatly benefit from a podcast that discusses core pinciples of the game or whatever konami does to the game. I can already see different types of episodetitles "Should Yugioh have changes in their rules ft. distant coder", "Is Yugioh too expensiv? ft. Nhymnim", "How to design a Yu-Gi-Oh! series ft. cimoooooooo" "How can we make Yu-Gi-Oh! more accesible ft. TheActMan" etc.
I feel like this discussion might have gone smoother if the others had played a game with rotation. It seemed like they didn't understand reprints and alt formats.
Have you ever thought that, maybe, the reason they haven't played it is because they don't like it? Not everyone has to have tried something to know if they're going to like it or not.
@@Masterslam999 irregardless of if you like it or not. Knowing what the topic is about helps being able to discuss it properly. So in this case Farfa and Coder have only ever played Yu-Gi-Oh, and basically treated it like, as soon as we rotate DM we'll never see those cards again. Or as soon as we rotate 5Ds we'll have a snowballs chance in hell that Konami reprints anything. Basically ignoring every time cards get reprinted even in the eternal format Yu-Gi-Oh is currently Whereas Joseph being a Magic player knows what set rotation is and can talk about the positives and negatives. And Gage unfortunately is at least informed on the topic enough that he can actually talk on it.
@@aaronwishard7093 at the same time you seem to face the issue just from one side. Farfa and Coder showed a sufficient understanding of what a set rotation means, besides some minor slips. I do not need to have played every single tcg on earth to express my opinion on the game I play daily for years. And if you know yugioh well enough you can be 100% sure that if you go to a Sky Striker, a Salad or a Dark Magician and whisper into his ear: "Look buddy, for 2 years your deck is banned from competitive play, but maybe in future we gonna make it come back" he's gonna flip the table and go do something else in his spare time. You cannot put in the same batch every player base. Konami has just being doing great post POTE and that's reflected by the increasing popularity of the game.
@@ivanmaterazzo2631 But the issue is Farfa and Coder stated cons that were disproven. "What if this happens?" Yeah it did happen in Magic. Almost every criticism they had were already done by Magic and Pokemon and every other TCG with rotation. MBT is right that Yugioh will die if it doesn't rotate because the game is poisoning itself slowly with their card releases.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING. Ive wanted big creators to make a limited format and host tournaments and live stream games. Absolutely the type of wish fulfillment I would do in their position.
The point about old decks topping in new formats is very valid. It isn't Naturia or Prankids though. It's Madolche. Madolche tops randomly all the time which is cool.
Also they see tons of play at a lower level, every time a deck gets support they see play it just isn't at YCS level I have no clue why MBT is so aggressive against legacy support
@@TheWizardMusyeah I notice that with him a lot. Like he seems to feel if the added support doesn't turn the deck into an overnight meta threat it's just hot garbage and that's just a poor take imo. Some of us aren't looking to top a ycs lol, we just love the game.
Or just the possibility to play old cards in modern strategies. Admittedly, I can only think of degenerate examples such as Branded Expulsion for Ido, the Supreme Magical Force or Smoke Grenade of the Thief in Infernoble Knights but in principle this is very funny and enables spicier deck building.
The thing is what Yugioh can actually do is not only allow the corsets but also the reprint sets. It's why for the longest time Magic the Gathering corsets existed it was a way to reprint Cards into the current formats that did not have to be in new sets.
Ok but do you know how many people are gonna use those cards? Unless they're staples like Raigeki, none. And the same is true for MTG. The only cards they reprint are older cards people actually care about. No one is going to buy Gren Maju
the issue is not having the places to reprint its the reprint bloat of reprints that are not high rarity versions or an easier to get printing. if a reprint set is made out of 90% bloat reprints the set is a waste and wont sell well. other games avoid the issue by being less archetypal so decks are split up by colour and type like artifact or goblin, it would only work in yugioh as a side format where decks are more generic like dark warrior instead of HERO
First of all, this was a great series, it would be cool to see something like this again. Second, honestly, set rotation is the reason I'm more interested in collecting Pokémon cards than actually *playing* Pokémon. It just sucks having a deck and then suddenly not being able to play any deck or even try to play the deck. For example, yeah, Lightsworn is pretty bad, but at least I can *try* to play Chaos Lightsworn, or put the Lightsworn cards in a Tearlaments deck. Of course the meta would largely be the same even if set rotation were a thing, but like many things, what doesn't really hurt meta decks much does hurt rogue decks and lower.
Okay. Let's use Pokemon to Yu-Gi-Oh as an example. A top tier Pokemon deck, ever since I began playing, costs you roughly 300 from scratch for the premium best deck. But let's say you're on a budget of oh idk 50 a month. For 50 a month you can get a rogue deck, with all the staples you'll ever need, for that amount of money. And when it's time to upgrade to a tier 1 deck you'll have those cards for several years of play. At which point when the cards have rotated, you'll possibly have them as a keepsake, you'll be able to sell them for roughly what you paid, or depending on collector interest it might even turn you a profit when you take into account time and usage. With Yu-Gi-Oh, let's use one of the most drastic examples, but it's something I watched happen. Let's assume you bought Nekroz. Full power, triple Brio, triple Trishula, the works. This was a brand new thing, that aside from Manju and Senju, which arguably you could have had for months before the deck came out. Was still asking for 1500 on release. And you had about a month before the deck was only worth about half due to ban list problems. And then you had about a month after that where, because next big power creep thing, the deck is worth about 100. Now idk about you. But that's not something that sounds like good money. It literally sounds like you're burning money. There are exceptions, Burning Abyss stayed relevant for about as long as an entire rotation would probably last. Dragon Rulers would have stayed that relevant if they hadn't gotten banned. Heroes in their various incarnations always find ways to stay relevant for several years if you're picking up that core from scratch. Kaiju are literally unable to be power crept. Now speaking as someone who plays Pokemon more, I'll admit it does suck when a particular Pokemon I like gets rotated out. Because you're never sure when they're gonna reprint it again, if they reprint it again. But because they like Money, the dev team revisits ideas quite often. So let's say you like the idea of spread damage. They'll print another Pokemon who does a similar thing quite often. Even if it's not a direct 1:1 reprint. Then there's also plenty of times where it's a literal 1:1 reprint of cards from as old as 20 years ago.
@Aaron Wishard as much as it makes me sad watching my favorite pokemon/strategies get rotated, it forces me to make a new deck, which does keep it fresh.
@@aaronwishard7093 You assume that Pokemon is cheap due to rotation and not because they choose to keep their game affordable. Yugioh would not suddenly make the game cheaper.
@@luminous3558 Secondary market prices aren't set by Konami, they're set by market pressures. If everyone realizes that these cards have a limited shelf life the calculations change. This is especially true if we can bring power levels down and reprint cards into formats, meaning that you can play with older cards, increasing supply.
a battle packs coming back would make a good way to have a set rotation side format each individual battle pack can be tailored for a specific metagame experience
This has been such a great series. MBT has made some of the best YuGiOh series and this one is certainly up there. I hope we see some iteration of this again in the future. Thank you mbt for making my Sunday evenings better!
For the love of Generaiders, please make more of these videos. It can be multiple of other personalities like Joshua Schmidt, PAK, Cimo, Shiggys and Golden Nova.
This was a great finale, gage was 100% right with the call for no liar, farfa refusing to learn anything about another game, and coder refusing to learn what set rotation actually is is too hilarious. I also would have liked more post liar discussion on the last episode, I will cry about it. I'll miss this series, but I'm always excited for the next one. would genuinely watch a video or stream of you and gage building a core set, I think that'd be really cool.
Please actually do a rotation series. That would be so hype and also make players understand what set rotation is and how it could be viable. I've played all of the big 3 and think yugioh could really benefit from a set rotation format.
MBT sort of already did with progression playoffs. It was sealed play but you got to see really distinct eras of Yugioh with different cards at the forefront with set rotation in effect. Especially when you compare it to Cimooooo and Gage's series it is amazing how diverese set rotation makes things.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 But playoffs was using the sets already released as they are. Yugioh sets are not designed with rotation in mind. I'm talking about coming up with new set lists specifically for a limited format using the existing card pool. Would be a lot of work, but I think would be really good content.
It would be interesting to see, but I feel like it would primarily display the ways that YGO hasn't been designed for a rotation. Much like how sealed format series really shows off how the YGO sets were never designed for individual play.
Set rotation has never been viable, it's a bandaid on a bullet wound. The only reason why MTG and Vanguard players accept it is because that's the standard for those games. In reality, power creep is unavoidable but set rotation doesn't fix anything
Dude fr please don't cancel this series if it's at all viable not to. It's legit my favourite thing you make and imho the most rewatchable, and the format has potential way beyond what you've put it through so far. I'd take once a month if scheduling is the issue
People act like set rotation means you can't use cards that rotate out. Yes, in mtg standard rotates, but modern, pioneer, legacy, vintage, edh, and historic don't rotate. Gage saying the idea of a forbidden and limited list covering the whole game is unique is a straight up lie. Legacy, vintage, modern etc, obviously have ban lists in mtg. I have been going to official tournaments for mtg for over a decade with cards that have rotated out of standard, and my decks have been legal every single time. Once you introduce a rotating format, it is beyond obvious you would need at least one that doesn't. It takes a special kind of moron to think a company that wants their game to have longevity would just declare old cards to be unusable in all formats, especially those with competitive followings. I genuinely find that when you talk to Yugioh players about set rotation, over half of them honestly believe you can't use rotated cards in competitive settings.
"Imagine if those cards came out and the deck was banned" Let me introduce you to the idea of returning mechanics and reprinting cards. So in the set that introduced the new naturias, they could simply also print the old ones too. So if you wanna focus on an extra deck mechanic for a block, you could find a really good or new archetype with it and reprint it with some new stuff
In theory, reprints do work very well, but there are so many cards in yugioh that there is inevitably going to be some sort of synergy that is rendered unusable simply because none of the designers thought of it at the time. Like, it would absolutely suck if Magicians' Souls came out and people who liked SPYRAL got very frustrated because their deck was too old to still be in rotation and no one is gonna expect something like Souls is gonna improve something like SPYRAL
@@munchrai6396 yes and if they want to play that spyral soul combo they have to play it in the regular tcg/ocg/md format. The point of set rotation is building a less powerful format where you can build your decks with new cards instead of old ones. An example would be raigeki rotating out but the new lightning storm coming in. People would expect a lightning storm instead of a raigeki and adapt. Floodgates would rotate out and you would expect maybe weaker never seen floodgates because the broken ones are not in the format. Trap cards would become stronger and combo decks more fair because some of the combo extender or generic bosses would rotate out. Its just better in every way. People who want to play the most broken shit or nostalgic shit would continue in the regular format and people who want to have a slower more balanced game would play the set rotation format.
@@munchrai6396 You'd be absolutely right that interactions that are unintended but awesome are missed out on. But that's just the problem with set rotations in general. For example. In Pokemon's eternal format there's about a dozen FTKs as the best decks in the format. All because they abuse various unintended mechanics looping together. But, let's use Spyral as the continued example, Spyral being a fan favorite probably means they'd be reprinted quite often. So even if they're not in the initial format Souls is printed in, since it'd be just out of most card games shelf life for rotations. They'd probably be reprinted in 6 months because the player base loves them alot. It's just like how Heroes constantly get new stuff.
@@munchrai6396 "inevitably going to be some sort of synergy that is rendered unusable simply because none of the designers thought of it at the time" Yes that's the point. Every time this hapens in the game nowadays, it's always some dumb floodgate or unbreakable board that we get which makes the game unfun or at worst unplayable (branded expulsion + gimmick puppet making branded miserable to play against for example)
the issue with needing to reprint cards to keep them in a format is for more archetype based games it causes a lot of bloat reprints for cards which do not need a reprint, which gives sets less value when a set is only half new or cards which needed a reprint. battle packs are better for a set rotation format since they are a separate thing which does not clog up sets.
MBT has said that he doesn't want these kinds of shows to go on forever, otherwise you're just scraping the bottom of the barrell *cough*twitterthread*cough*
Speaking as someone who plays multiple card games, I think this episode highlights the most insane exchange this argument always presents. Person 1: "Rotation would cause these benefits, we've seen this happen in practice in Magic." Person 2: "Okay but how would we deal with these side-effects of rotation?" Person 1: "Well in Magic's case, they-" Person 2: "WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MAGIC, STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS I DON'T KNOW" Everyone has their favorite card games and things about them but Yugioh players in particular seem to be the only ones who absolutely refuse to accept the idea that the game could be improved by adopting concepts from other games, while also at the same time refusing to even try to learn about the impact those concepts have already shown in practice. ...Which is very ironic when you consider Yugioh's origins. Just to clear my mind about things I was screaming at my monitor during the episode, I think what Coder and Gage didn't seem to understand is that rotated-out cards aren't gone forever. If they want to make a deck playable in a post-rotation format they can easily reprint the cards needed. And on the other hand, they could also deliberately leave out unhealthy cards or cards that would overshadow new support. Imagine if they want to bring back Spright in a couple of years; reprint the basics of Blue, Jet, Carrot, Red, Pixies, Starter... but don't reprint Gigantic/Sprind/Elf (not the most ideal example since Elf got hit but bear with me for the example's sake), instead opting to print some new Extra Deck monsters that result in wildly different gameplay than what Gigantic/Sprind/Elf supported. Without rotation those cards would need to be stronger than their predecessors to even be considered for an ED slot (which also goes back to what Joseph was saying about lack of rotation further and more quickly driving power creep), and it would almost inevitably end with "why the hell would I play these instead of Elf". It not only encourages reprints of core cards from old archetypes, but allows them to explore entirely new ground that would otherwise be forced to either compete or fall in line with the deck's old style, while also allowing them to selectively remove problematic cards without killing off a deck entirely. And just as counter-argument to the idea of the occasional cool old cards popping up: Book of Moon is an outlier in that it's just "good". When old cards suddenly are back on the menu because of newer ones, they almost always end up broken, either because some new archetype can exploit an old generic design with poor future-proofing (see: Instant Fusion) or because new mechanics/gameplay just were not designed with entire groups of old cards in mind (see: the addition of Link monsters necessitating that Dandylion, Grinder Golem, Gofu, etc. be put on the banlist). Or because, they're either floodgates as mentioned, or similar effects that just happen to hose whatever's relevant at the moment (see: Neko Mane King, The End of Anubis, Soul Drain, etc. popping up in Master Duel right now to try and make non-games out of Tearlament matchups).
Always love the energy of 4 guys talking and eventually shouting and at any moment one of them could snap and slit the other's throat with a card's edge
JOSEPH PLEASE IM ON MY HANDS AND KNEES HERE PLEASEEEEEE keep doing more magical hats this series is S tier and i know alot of the comments and community will agree we LOVE this series, yknow take a break from this sure but im BEGGING please bring this back with a 2nd season or something. its incredible refreshing to see the top creators for yugioh sit down and just discuss topics surrounding the game. maybe season 2 can have a new guest list or something idk but this series needs to come back please bro its too good.
Speed Duel and Battle Pack are Konami attempt at making player friendly yugioh. And I love them. I feel speed duel could have set rotation and no one would complain. We're in the gx speed duel era. Next, drop 5Ds, etc. Keeping speed duel balanced is going to get nutty(er) soon.
I just wanted to chim in and say how much I loved this series. I'm glad MBT is working hard and keeping the channel fresh, but I will miss this one a lot. I hope to see it come back in some way in the future!
I think we should have a rotating format in addition to advanced, and honestly it would probably improve Advanced format as Konami would be focused on selling product for the rotating format thus Advanced would be more balanced(ergo problem cards dealt with faster and non problems brought back). In addition it would fix the power creep, which has been a problem for a while now.
The other Great part of Set Rotation is that Generic Staples receive regular REPRINTS keeping the game accesible. For example, Pokémon constantly reprints useful cards like Ultra Ball, and Professor’s Research. Including designing stunningly beautiful Full Art/ Alternate art designs which hold their value regardless of how many reprints the card of that name gets. If Pokémon Were Yu-Gi-Oh! Professor’s Research (discard your hand draw 7) would have had 1 secret rare short print a year ago which would mean only people willing to invest 700 dollars in the game can access it, gate keeping casual play and creating an unfair power imbalance against new or less wealthy players. If AA - Zeus is still meta relevant but it’s going out of rotation next set, that means Konami would need to print a new AA- Zeus in the next set to allow players to keep using it. Maybe even being printed as a common, because let’s be honest. It’s one of the most played cards of all time it’s like the center space in a game of bingo. The failure of Yu-Gi-OH up until this point has been refusing to differentiate between cards for collecting and cards with gaming utility. I hope this next set represents Yugioh finally diversifying the Rarity options in the TCG and offering multiple rarities of the same card in each card set so that capitalist pigs can play their starlight prospy’s and the game can grow and be embraced by new generations for kids who can play their uncommon pot of prosperities.
Pokemon has printed cards with the same effects as ones that were rotated out. Sycamore was just Juniper with a different name. They could just reprint older cards that were rotated out into the format. With Gage's Evenly Matched example they could just print a card with the same effect. I think Coder and Farfa were thinking cards newer cards couldn't have the same or similar effects than older ones
there would be no reason to print evenly matched with a different name, you could just reprint evenly matched. Unless you wanted to give the legacy format 6 evenly matched
@@AndrewCrimefighter Well you see if the new legally distinct evenly matched were a secret rare then the reason to print it would be to force people to shell out 60$ for a desired single print card as opposed to letting them buy old structure deck commons from the secondary market.
@@luminous3558 but just like with magic or pokemon, you are still allowed to play those older versions of those cards if it has had a reprint in a new set.
Following up on what Farfa said at the end, I've love to see more of like a podcast-style series of people just talking about their takes on yugioh. The screaming is funny sure but I feel a lot more engaged by the actual discussion going on.
@@557deadpool Links are a mix of too free, and given the repeated bans of these newer links, too game warping. The mechanic was never intended to be this powerful, but instead, it was to limit every other decks power by forcing everyone to run links to use their extra deck. But the last master rule changed that and its made the game a bit of a revolving door of X or Y link monster bulldozing the game and then being banned. That ain't good.
My favorite part about the lack of set rotation is looking at a new card and brainstorming what old strategies it could improve. Unintentional synergies like Magicians' Souls rebooting SPYRALs are a big benefit to deckbuilding in Yugioh and the experience of searching for obscure synergies between decks makes for the most interesting deckbuilding experience that I've ever had from a TCG. As someone who used to play Pokemon the most frustrating thing is finding some sort of cool synergy and realizing that those cards will never interact with each other. The worst example of this is when you have different iterations of the same archetype that are just not allowed to interact with each other. My favorite example of this is the Lost Zone in Pokemon, a mechanic that has been finally gifted a robust engine, but lacks any on theme, late game payoff for said engine. Sure, Sableye is really powerful, but the fact that we do not have access to a Pokemon that can turn the Lost Zone directly into power/versatility is an absolute travesty. Pokemon like Mew Prime or Call of Legends Lucario would be so dope backed up by the new support
Loved this show. Would def love to see it come back in the future. Maybe we get new guests, but the energy of this cast is insane. Would be interested to see Dzeeff or Cimo in this kind of show tho.
As a Pokemon player, some older cars, trainers in particular, get reprinted constantly. So even though we have rotation for standard that only allows the last 3 years of cards be playable, some trainers and some Pokemon are word for word reprints. Thei also allows for some cards to still be playable. Professors Research and ultraball are common reprints and if it is reprinted any last printings are legal. I have a hard time playing Yu-Gi-Oh as the power creep is too much.
Coming from another Pokemon player. Gust of Wind/Boss' Orders has been in the game more often than it hasn't been. Same for Professor's Research/Professor Oak. Plus they bring back older cards even when it's Pokemon all the time. The first one that came to mind was during the Ultra Sun and Moon sets they reprinted a bunch of Gen 3 cards, with some of them only being spiritual reprints. Most were duds, but the fact that they did something that literally couldn't happen in Yu-Gi-Oh is awesome.
For Coder's point around the 20:30 mark, I think some summons types would have to be excluded or changed from some sets, at least starting out. When breaking each of the summoning mechanics down to their basic parts, they're all just different forms of Fusion Summoning (Namely Contact Fusion), with Links and XYZ having their own special mechanics added onto that (And Synchros having the restriction of Tuner monsters). You use 2 or more cards to bring out 1 monster that is typically stronger than its individual parts. However, this is not the case with Pendulum Monsters. Pendulum is so different from any of the other Summoning mechanics that I'd say that it would have to be excluded from any set rotation format *unless* the entire mechanic were to be reworked. Like maybe you could just make it glorified special Summoning. When you Pendulum Summon, the cards in the Pendulum zones are either Summoned or sent to the GY. That is just a general example though, and there is a lot more that could be done for Pendulum besides what we have currently, or even what I said.
If anything i think record attendance levels are a GOOD reason to make a big change that might compartmentalize the playerbase a bit. If you have to do it eventually, wouldn't you rather do it now when you have the players to support 2 formats, rather than when the game is on it's last legs?
They have 2 formats right now (not counting md & duel links) & attendance for speed duel events is not good. I think for konami it would make more sense to try & lift up that format instead of making a new one. Or they could import rush duel if they're gonna give up on speed duels
Pokemon player here - Big agree with MBT. While I get the appeal of expanded and unlimited formats, I also think the way everyone except MBT framed and understood it is completely inaccurate to how rotations actually happen and behave. To start, I think rotation would be great for Yugioh. I've had a casual interest in the series for years, and have been looking more into the game within the last year. And I'm often disappointed that certain types of decks that I think look cool and good, like the solfachords, wind up being bad in part because the meta seems to preoccupied with keeping a balance between old cards and new ones. I think that causes cool decks to suffocate because they're just too close in proximity to another powerful archetype that needs a lot of cards to push it out of contention. That's why I like rotations, it just lets overcentralizing pieces of a game to naturally get phased out so other cards can have a shot. Rotations just put constraints on the card pool, and they can reprint, reintroduce, and tune mechanics as the game progresses with each individual format. It lets certain types of mechanics to flourish at times, without having to accommodate or address older cards. Lost Box is one of the premier decks in Pokemon atm, and if you were to look at expanded it would be completely wiped out because so much exists in that format that just invalidates it. On reprints and power scaling, Pokemon is a good example of how you can still print wildly powerful cards like Acro Bike, Trekking Shoes, and like five flavors of trade, which are all +1 draws at the cost of discarding a card in different ways, while tempering them with a format that stops them from getting out of hand. Heck we're getting a BUFFED N, and it looks pretty balanced in perspective with the format we're going into. We have cards that would break older cards like Scoop Up Net, but had a smaller impact because the format was specifically designed to stop it from being overpowered. And you can actively revisit older cards and mechanics. Pokemon has a stable 20+ cards that get reprinted every few years to keep them in format and then lets other powerful cards to be redone/revamped for other decks to allow for more variety. I know that I'm coming at this from a wildly different point of view, but I think Pokemon and Yugioh have a lot in common when you look at how sets are built. You have what looks like a tempered raigeki at times, or cool battle traps, all of which getting looked over because the meta game has long since exceeded their viability. Rotation would let these cards develop more useful and consistent niches, imo.
I kinda love how I thought that this was going to be an interesting discussion about rotation in Yu-Gi-Oh. But instead... I realized that this is actually a comedy about 1 guy that understands how rotation works trying to explain it to the others.
You should have gotten those 3 to be your cohosts of the rotation series, in a Prog Playoff style thing with an elimination tournament. See if you can win them over by the end. 😂
This was absolutely the best episode of this series. A beautiful finale. I do hope you bring it back eventually. I think a break is good but I love these discussions as a nonplaying enjoyer (I play Magic, and watch Yu-Gi-Oh, I am one of those people MBT mentioned).
The issue with something like speed duel to me is that you HAVE to buy new cards. Whereas set rotation where you can use old cards you don't need to invest much more. If they printed cards without short prints and chase cards it could work
They could also just not rotate. Ever considered that? All the pro rotation arguments just try to downplay the massive downsides. There isnt a real benefit that isnt solvable by a banlist.
@@luminous3558 You mean that thing that's just a band aid? Pokemon is a prime example. Is there power creep? Sure, anyone with a graph could show you that. However there are definitely peaks and valleys. In fact the current Scarlet and Violet meta is the culmination of roughly 6 years of peeling back the power creep that they introduced into the game from the tail end of Sun and Moon .
MBT: Pro set-rotation, keeps bringing up magic Magic's most popular format: a 100 card singleton non-rotating format built around a legendary creature. I think set rotation would pretty much kill legacy support since as of now it's easy to fit legacy support within a set alongside the new archetypes, whereas now, it's impossible since for the archetype you'd also have to fit the archetype itself into the sets, and with the set size as of now, you'd have to make them magic sized probably or overhaul set structure to make room for the extra sets for the core/reprint sets.
This was such a fun series. Even though it only lasted for a couple of weeks, it was something I very much enjoyed. MBT making another banger series as always.
Poor MBT, being the only sane and knowledgeable person on the panel. Coder was so frustrating and hardheaded in this that if they introduced set roration and he quits, I wouldn't mind. And I like the guy.
The problem with this series is that coder and gage will do this thing where they just decide they're right and then pretend to be complete idiots and not understand the other point
They were right in this case though. MBTs argument is just that MTG does it and its not dead(yet). Farfa doesnt really understand the topic. Gage is actually in his element here because it plays into his cardgame economics knowledge. Coder sort of gets the casual view of things perfectly right and the outrage at the differing formats for MTG tournaments is also extremely warranted. Most people only have the money for 1 format.
Bro, I'm really gonna miss this series! It was the greatest thing to watch on monday mornings, I really hope you bring it back, the discussions where so insghtful even thoght there was a fake take, it would really make you think about some yugioh topics that you regularly don't hear about I really really hope you guys bring this one back
Kohdok already explained well, that at most, the desire for set Rotation the most ultimately Corporate charged, not the players. Set Rotation is a surefire way to artificially bump sales, i mean, you have no choice. Your card expires IN A YEAR. Though, Magic:The Gathering is actually the biggest Cautionary Tale of how set Rotation can absolutely go wrong in the long run. The reserve list basically turned out to become a Time Capsuled Shotgun on the foot for MTG. And now, stores has no problem turning old MTG stocks to landfill, because set Rotation guarantee older sets will be as good as glorified ass wipes once rotated. Even new stocks get landfilled to either generate artificial scarcity, or because store realized its better to landfill products that will never be sold, than keep them wearhoused, eating tax money.
Mbt left out a very important bit of info about competive magic, and that is when it comes to the competitive scene modern, which is a non-rotated format, is "magics premiere competitive format" in wizard' own words.
Good lord this was Coder at his worst. The sheer level of bad faith he was engaging in this discussion in was hurting. He was refusing to understand what was being said, and actively going out of his way to cut MBT off to give limp gotchas as if he was already right. Farfa at the very least was just being dumb, struggling with basic inference. But Coder actively dragged the conversation down. Still, was probably one of the most entertaining episodes, and a good one to end on.
MBT: a deck doesnt just get 1 new card and just come back into the meta *looks at Dark World (sure they got 3 new cards they use but the deck still uses many old ones), Volcanics, Gem Knight got 1 new card and became an FTK nightmare, Mathmech with Circular, Frogs with Toadally Awesome, Mermail with Neptabyss, etc*
MBT shouldn't have argued with them instead he should have printed a picture of him as the chad with the caption, "Weakest Set Rotation Warrior," and the rest as the virgin. Then proceed to point at it saying that's them and that's him.
Master Duel player here. Btw, set rotation is already exist in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's called archetypes, i.e. most cards in archetypes hard bind to the archetypes, so if archetype not in the meta, then all the cards too, so old cards pretty much rotates into rogue. Exceptions are staples and boss monsters, i.e. core set - cards from old sets that's still legal in new set. Rotating cards - ban list. (E.g.: we will rotate Yata-Garasu and N years later, wow, look it's coming back to core set.) If Konami wouldn't want to see staples, board breakers, boss monsters and other "core set" cards in the current set, Konami would have just banned them. Even with rotation power creep exist because developers think that power creep make audience exited for new sets, power creep wouldn't stop and wouldn't be even smaller, because it's depends on card designers skill, not just set rotation. So only thing that set rotation would bring - it would kill all rogue deck, wow, how exiting to punish old casual fans. New player, hard to start? No, because as a new player a year ago I would say - new players just read top 3 meta decks and staples, oh, wait, it's basicly last set. So no difference, exept some times you would see on the bottom of the ladder some weak strange deck and it is more fun to interact and see strange mechanics from the old sometimes, as a new player, then see 3 exact same deck and combos all the time. I want that fresh air in the ladder as a new player. Going a little bit back in time. If Konami wouldn't want to see staples, board breakers, boss monsters and other "core set" cards in the current set, Konami would have just banned them. Why anybody would think that Konami would definatly rotate such "problematic" cards, even throught right now they want to see them in the game? I mean if Konami would rotate their game designers, so their view on the game would shift, that another story, but it's not set rotation, it's office rotation ))) But nevermind, episode is fire as always, and I guess it's my favourite show on your channel, MBT, pls come back with magical hats later, it's super fun and entertaining. Thanks for episode, and keep doing what you doing )
My biggest critique of Set Rotation is that MBT goes "Ah well it stops the power creep" and to a level that is correct... it then introduces mechanic creep. Using MTG as an example, how many keywords are we at now? Can a new set come out and just use the existing keywords? No. Because there needs to be a Wow Factor to the new cards, and typically those new cards are going to in their own world be powerful, find positions in eternal formats and warp them, because they may not be Literal Ancestral but they will be oh... A Companion or Mutate or Adventure. Hell let's take MTG off the sacrifical altar, that is exactly what happens in the Pokemon TCG, they always need a new mechanic, they always need a new big flashy wow thing with its own high power level, and do you know why? Because nobody is gonna buy the same fucking cards with a new skin. We have proof of this, a lot of TCGs have died at set rotation specifically, MonColle is probably the best example of this. When the first rotation hits and the player base is going "Oh, the cards I had have lost value, and I have to buy an entirely new set of cards to keep going, and most of these new cards are weaker than the old ones and do nothing new, so why am I paying to basically be on the eternal treadmill?" There always has to be something new, something exciting, whether it be power or feature creep. And if you don't see that you are lying to yourself. The Professor in fact has an amazing video lambasting MTG over all the new wacko things it's done in the past decade and just how much states you need to keep track of. Is it Day or Night, Have you found the Golden City? Time to explore a dungeon! And also seize the initiative! Do you have a Party? This'd be like if every set of Yugioh had to introduce a new extra deck summoning mechanic.
It also really doesn't stop power creep, it just cycles it and it can be very rough. MTG could print a slow timmy set to start a standardcycle off and then release the most absurd aggro cards one set later to forever ruin that cycle. The earlier on you buy-in the weaker you are to powercreep making your cards worthless and the later you buy-in the closer you are to rotation.
@@luminous3558 Yup, I remember Standard was unplayable garbage for like 4 fucking years. Just the longest period of time of pure "Please fucking end my suffering there is no point to be playing this game" Hey Remember Ikoria, and Eldraine, and when fucking Worlds just like what a year or two ago, was 95% people playing Alrund's Izzit? No no tell me how fucking Rotation definitely made the game better. "Oh but you can go play other formats" Cool, I can go mortgage my house to afford a modern deck. Pauper? Great lemme know when an event fires for it. Draft? Great my buy in to play the game is every time I want to play it! I love limited, but lmao "Yeah every time you wanna play it'll be $15"
@@HavenKhaos yeah the alternate formats of Modern, Legacy and Vintage are too expensive. Not to mention with WotC's recent actions they're driving away many players so even entrenched players aren't playing any more at my LGS they couldn't even get a Modern event to fire.
This has been such a good series, love just getting to hear the big Yugioh nerds talk about Yugioh, there's an ever present passion for this game that is palpable from anytime MBT, Gage, Farfa, and Coder speak that makes this so much fun I'll miss this series, but I'm so excited for Rotation Series! It's content like this that will keep this community alive for years to come
![⭐️( ลอยกระทง 2024 ) Ver. แดนซ์ Remix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rMWOLhgXUHc/mqdefault.jpg)
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
Looks like MBT rotated out this series
💀💀💀
its proof of how big a fan of set rotation he is.
He's on this kick where he intends on ending any new series he makes in 10 episodes
Sadge
MBT is the only one who has seen the outside of the cave, and cannot describe what he has seen to those who only see the shadows.
Dude what do you mean?? They haven't played Magic?? Neither have most YGO players.
@@ttkrystal8329 Look up "Allegory of the cave".
@@EnjinSosei It's a caveman Yu-Gi-Oh player. They're extra levels of not being able to read.
@@aaronwishard7093 oh sure do the standard MtG thing and just insult the playerbase of your biggest competitor. Y'all have always been elitists so why should I expect anything different.
My dude, "yugioh players cant read" has been a meme in the ygo community for over a decade.
I think keeping this format but with a rotating field of yugitubers is a great idea
some guest episodes would be really neat
Set rotation in Magical Hats?
He just invite Joshua Schmidt. He almost feels like a part of it allready to me after he reacted to every episode.
It's just them moving their camera positions to one side
@@Lyricaon I need this so bad
16:10 Gage trying to be calm and reasonable while everyone is freaking out is quite something
God bless his patience in this one. Everyone was having an aneurysm while he tried to talk at a reasonable amount of decibels
18:47 they broke him 😔
How is that out of Coder, Farfa and Gage that GAGE was the reasonable one and actually wanted to listen instead of just mindlessly laughing like Farfa whenever something came that he doesn't know😅
the series ended because gage was reasonable and not the impostor
This series was so fantastic, I hope if you bring it back, you do it with a different cast, it'd be fun to see the questions with different people.
in like 2 years they could do it again cuz there will be new thing to discuss about
HARD AGREE
I'd rather see someone else pick up the series in that case.
This Series with the Playoff Team. This would be a banger
I vote we make MBT the host with 4 guests
lets get him a silly Magical Hat and everything
this episode is just coder and farfa stonewalling mbt from like, explaining the idea of a rotation is at all and gage actually wanting to talk about it. incredible content
Literally my thought
Good. We do not need it. Nobody plays rotating Magic formats anyway.
@@ttkrystal8329 Nice argument chatter, why dont you back it up with a source?
@@TheDocperian just ask any MTG player they'll tell you the same thing. They play everything BUT standard format which is the rotation format. Commander and Modern are all that's played in paper from what I've been able to gather.
@@TheDocperian go look up the 7 deadly sins of a TCG here on YT. First one is set rotation
This whole episode was MBT and Gage having an actual conversation and Coder and Farfa going "Counterspell???? How am I supposed to understand this???"
Worst episode of this series so far
@@Banditation You're actually crazy if you think this is the worst
Its the worst if you want an actual debate with actual answers.
Its the best if you want entertainment :D
@@LuxLikeGaming There was a debate though? Everyone made solid points - even the criticism from Coder was valid and would need to be ironed out if rotation became a thing.
The only poor thing was Farfa being dismissive about Magic. I don't know the cards either, but if you're going to have a discussion about set rotation, looking at card games that do set rotation successfully is necessary.
@@CoordinatorKYamato fwiw it was half a debate interspersed with everyone yelling at each other.
Coder and Farfa passing one brain cell back and forth between them for 20+ minutes, I love it.
peak content
The fact that the guy who's identity is basically "I will play Burning Abyss until the day I die" is pro Set Rotation truly is a moment of all time
@@colossaldonut5190 You actually didnt listen and 10people liking...damn. There is no reason for yugioh to not have BOTH. If farfa wants to play ba but ba is not in the rotation right now then he plays ba in the regular/wild format. Hearthstone, pokemon, magic all have this possibility all have a wild and standard Format where wild is absolutely insane in power lvl because you have access to every card which is basically the only formats we had in yugioh. Tcg/ocg/md are all wild formats.
@@Pkey995 no they aren't because they're forced to actually be balanced thru the banlist. Wild format in hearthstone is like every degen card on ygos banlist set free.
@@ttkrystal8329 The banlist is here to sell new products not to balance the game. If you think banning maybe 3cards limiting 10card meanwhile 100 new cards are out is anywhere near "balancing" then you re coping hard. Yes wild format is a mess just like yugioh is. And hearthstone got its problem aswell but at least they try to balance their game. Lor has rotated too. They got a standard and eternal format aswell now. Yugioh is just printing non stop new cards with no way to nerf if they messed up something. I mean I think they dont care anymore. They just continue and think "they are addicted they will buy our products anyways" and it works.
Final episode?? I was really hoping this would become a weekly staple.
MBT said that his new approach to youtube is rotating series every few months. It prevents things from getting stale, and it also stops him from having to be committed to something that doesn't get many views. If they kept continuing this series they would run out of topics and the viewers would dwindle, and then it would just be randomly canceled.
He doesn't want series to be like the weekly Twitter discussion ones
Why not just release them once a month then
MBT was serious about the set rotation thing
@@dracoblizzard7944 Even his youtube videos have set rotation
Next series: MBT teaches Farfa and Coder how to Magic so they understand wtf he's talking about.
NOOOOO NOT THE FINAL EPISODE I LOVED THIS SERIES
Coder and Farfa wrapping their heads around having a second format is the funniest thing to me.
Coder: "How do you know what format you'll be playing when you sign up for a Magic event?"
MBT: "They tell you."
Coder: *visible confusion*
I can't exactly blame them because every alternative format Konami has introduced either doesn't get support or gets dominated by a single deck or strategy.
@@AllThingsEntertaining hmm if only there were other games with multiple formats
@@marciamakesmusic I don't get the point you're attempting to make. I understand that Magic has several different formats, but like I said, Konami is extremely bad at supporting them and/or have genuinely terrible rules or lack of any mitigation. Like Common Charity, where the best thing you could be doing in that format is play Gouki. Deck Master format is exclusively Last Warrior from Another Planet stall. Hell, we only recently got Speed Duel ban lists just a couple years ago. A format, to my knowledge, that doesn't even have side event status at regionals.
@@AllThingsEntertaining they seem to be doing pretty good with Edison. "Konami bad" is not an argument as to why set rotation is bad. WotC is an equally dogshit company and I don't really like standard in MtG. But you know what's worse than standard? Legacy
Everyone going nuts the whole episode and shouting over each other was hilarious. Also, I'd actually like to see a Rotation Series.
mbt actually announced thats whats replacing this series :D
@@anemodude9544 Where did he announce it? I know he mentioned it off hand in this video, but I thought that was a joke.
@firefliesowlcity12 IIRC he said Rotation series was replacing this one on stream at some point.
Honestly, rotation series would be awesome
this is so funny to watch as somebody who's primary game is Magic. Nobody has any problems with rotation here because we have a rotating format and multiple non-rotating formats, all of which can lead you to the highest level of competition.
Which works because magic maintains multiple different formats and does not force standard (anymore). So if you dont want to play standard, like the vast majority of MTG players, you can just play Eternal. I dont trust Konami to run more than one format.
You are also just suffering stockholm syndrome. Nobody likes Standard in MTG so why support it?
Lies. Commander is a casual troll fest and your eternal formats are full of broken, unfun bullshit because Wotc won't balance them
I know this series probably really hard to plan for everyone to record with but i don't mind if mbt continue this series as a MONTHLY PLEASE DON'T AXE THIS SERIES PLEASEEEE
Too late, we dug the grave
For real, please don’t cancel this series, I just discovered it on Friday and binged all the episodes. Just to find out todays upload is the last? No thanks!
@@Bindersquinchbroke boy yugioh was the same experience for me 😢
Just like Jank Bank unfortunately there is nothing we can do
There is also the issue of them needing something to debate. Realistically, they've tackled most of the worthwile things to discuss, so the quality of the series would decline until it hits the point of just debating opinions on the latest top deck or some konami controversy, turning it into a discount yugioh news podcast at best.
I honestly wish Yugioh had more formats like MTG does. Like in MD, the N/R event was super fun and was basically the equivalent of MTG's Pauper format, and people make a ton of their own custom formats to breathe some life into the game, so it's not so far-fetched to say Yugioh can't have formats like this. The issue is always that Konami just doesn't want to support anything not Advanced.
Wizards doesn't support alternative formats either. They're literally fan formats. Yugioh WOULD have more formats, if they players wanted to. That's what happened with MtG. People hated the game so much that they decided to create their own rules, their own ban lists, and even their own game mechanics.
Yugioh does support alternative formats. They even have a list of them on their site.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 Technically we do have a bunch of fan formats in yugioh now as well, though they're mostly stuff like progression that Yugitubers have helped to spawn 🤔
What i think would fix Yu-Gi-Oh! Difficult barrier of entry would be making atleast 3 level of format.
>Junior format, wich is a format that only allows cards realeased in a span of a year.
>Intermediate format, wich allows cards only released within 5 years or less
And
>Senior format, which allows ALL CARDS throughout Yu-Gi-Oh's History, granted they are not banned.(obviously the one considered as the premium format)
I don't know if any cardgame implement something similar, but this is how i see it should be done.
@@bryanmerel No card game has that type of system. But I'm not gonna bash the idea since it does sound fun
Noo please don't end this show. It is amazing.
As someone who plays MTG and YGO I understand all of what Joseph is saying. But since this is a yugioh channel, I am surprised that he dropped so many mtg card and set names to an audience where many will not know these names
He really didn't name that much. He named really famous stuff. As much as I hate MTG I understand what "Bolt" is and understand the reverance for Ravnica and its return. Just saying "Bolt is like smashing ground" should be enough.
It's not like he talked about things like Block constructed, a now dead format, he used the names of the most well known things in MTG. I feel it was a bigger tell that Farfa and Coder have never tried another TCG with their reactions.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 Yeah, but that still requires more knowledge about MTG than a lot of people know.
I think Pokemon has more widely known points of reference since people meme about its draw power and iconic stuff like Bill, but I'm not sure if MBT knows enough to be able to pull some of those references in.
@@Asmodean1111 Idk, Farfa seemed to know Hearthstone, and that's essentially a TCG with set rotation, they just didn't know how MTG and its tournaments work 🤔
He didn't say all that much at all. I dont know Magic but I understood what he meant to say by context alone. Coder and Farfa were just not willing to listen at all. Thats all
When Joseph made the point about people not playing yugioh cause it's too complicated to get in to and how set rotation would allow the game to become simpler he was so right and I got a fucking aneurysm listening to coder argue against that
Master Duel is the perfect example of this. Just look at how many newcomers and returning players dropped the game shortly after launch due to the complicated nature of modern yugioh.
@@shipu302 I'm one of them. I played magic for years and knew the rules pretty well but the basics of a modern yugioh deck are all comically long combos and I just have better shit to do
It's great too because then you only need to memorize three or four decks fully to completely understand every popular deck in the format, rather than randomly facing someone's pet archetype whose last piece of support was in 2015
@@Aigis31 and it makes a boring, homogenized, shitty game like MTG.
@@Aigis31 If you're losing to someones pet archetype from 2015 and blaming that as the reason you lost, then nothing will ever be able to help you.
Coder was way too dismissive, he was like a brick wall.
It was actually infuriating how much insight MBT and Gage were bringing to the the discussion and Coder just disregards it because "Muh pet deck" and "what do you mean I have to check the type of tournament I sign up for"
it happens when you're on the spectrum
to be fair, his points are the same as at least 75% of the yugioh playerbase, there is a reason why Commander won over standard in mtg, people love "Muh pet deck", especially, in yugioh.
Farfa was way more infuriating to me but I just dont like him in general. The entire time MBT and Gage are trying to use Magic as an example he tries to shut it down because he's too fucking stupid to understand how anything but Yugioh works. Literally the least helpful or engaging member of a debate I've ever fucking watched. At least Coder tried to understand the Magic analogy.
Coder represents the average Yu-Gi-Oh player who is so resistant to change that they plug their ears and yell "lalalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you" lmao, actually hilarious to see such a simple concept executed by EVERY OTHER CARD GAME not be understood, and then the person confused doesn't let the people with level-headed takes explain it further. Incredible content
@@Badbufon while this is partially true, Standard died because WotC began prioritizing Commander over Standard with a barrage of Commander-exclusive products and basically overhauling every Standard set to be full of Commander cards. They also phased out Grand Prixs and Magic Fests, removing any competitive incentive to want to grind the premiere format. Then, Arena comes along with Alchemy, Historic, etc, that are all much more enticing offers. Not to mention how they stopped professional coverage as well.
It's like if Yu-Gi-Oh cancelled every future YCS, stopped professional coverage, then started printing every core set to support Edison and Goat format. That's precisely what happened with Magic. It's no surprise why Standard failed when the mothership did basically everything in its power to kill it.
EDH was a grassroots format that didn't get officially supported until years after gaining traction and even when it was supported it was pretty small. It wasn't until very recently that there was a huge boom in popularity, and even now the power levels of average decks have started to push many players out, myself included. It's unregulated, like sitting down for casual YGO and not discussing power levels.
Everybody was so passionate about their take that there had to be something up, like that there is no one concealing their true opinion, but this was a banger of a last episode! Gonna miss Magical Hats, curious what you're rotating into
As someone who plays both games, it was a blessing to hear MBT and Gage talking about it. A second format with rotation is exactly what Yu-Gi-Oh needs. Plus as mentioned, 2023 core set can have the reprints and YCSs can have multiple formats.
Holy crap this episode is chaos! It's like Gage banished a light and a dark
This episode was so good it makes me upset we won't get more. Unless there is going to be a season 2 with other creators which could be cool. Doug, DuelLogs, TeamSamurai
If Sam would talk like a normal human being on this show I’d love to see what his opinions are.
Yeah some Yugitubers are just socially distanced.
Coder being gaslighted by MBT while MBT just being honest got me dying from laugher
Rest in peace Magical Hats ft Coder, Farfa, and Gage
This was an awesome series, and I understand why you're rotating it out. Excited for what you make next, MBT!
Reminding Coder that he's banned by Konami gotta be my favorite part of this series.
what happened to cause that btw i not seen them before this series
@@reddragon9064 Another Yugituber Dkayed, used a clicked bait title "Legal cheating" and Coder calls him out for spreading cheats, drama insues. There were twitter threads, response videos. Then coder got banned because falsely accuse another player of cheating is against Konami rules.
At the end of the day neither of them (and their community) handled the situation well, and the whole thing was unnecessary
@@jasonlu4514 ahhh ok. Sounds complicated. Thanks for info though
I actually really liked this series. Do you think you could actually make a yugioh podcast where you could discuss those topics in further detail. I think the yu-gi-oh community could greatly benefit from a podcast that discusses core pinciples of the game or whatever konami does to the game. I can already see different types of episodetitles "Should Yugioh have changes in their rules ft. distant coder", "Is Yugioh too expensiv? ft. Nhymnim", "How to design a Yu-Gi-Oh! series ft. cimoooooooo" "How can we make Yu-Gi-Oh! more accesible ft. TheActMan" etc.
I feel like this discussion might have gone smoother if the others had played a game with rotation. It seemed like they didn't understand reprints and alt formats.
That's the problem I face whenever I talk to Yu-Gi-Oh players about set rotation, they just don't understand because they have played no game with it
Have you ever thought that, maybe, the reason they haven't played it is because they don't like it? Not everyone has to have tried something to know if they're going to like it or not.
@@Masterslam999 irregardless of if you like it or not. Knowing what the topic is about helps being able to discuss it properly.
So in this case Farfa and Coder have only ever played Yu-Gi-Oh, and basically treated it like, as soon as we rotate DM we'll never see those cards again. Or as soon as we rotate 5Ds we'll have a snowballs chance in hell that Konami reprints anything. Basically ignoring every time cards get reprinted even in the eternal format Yu-Gi-Oh is currently
Whereas Joseph being a Magic player knows what set rotation is and can talk about the positives and negatives. And Gage unfortunately is at least informed on the topic enough that he can actually talk on it.
@@aaronwishard7093 at the same time you seem to face the issue just from one side.
Farfa and Coder showed a sufficient understanding of what a set rotation means, besides some minor slips. I do not need to have played every single tcg on earth to express my opinion on the game I play daily for years.
And if you know yugioh well enough you can be 100% sure that if you go to a Sky Striker, a Salad or a Dark Magician and whisper into his ear: "Look buddy, for 2 years your deck is banned from competitive play, but maybe in future we gonna make it come back" he's gonna flip the table and go do something else in his spare time. You cannot put in the same batch every player base.
Konami has just being doing great post POTE and that's reflected by the increasing popularity of the game.
@@ivanmaterazzo2631 But the issue is Farfa and Coder stated cons that were disproven. "What if this happens?" Yeah it did happen in Magic. Almost every criticism they had were already done by Magic and Pokemon and every other TCG with rotation. MBT is right that Yugioh will die if it doesn't rotate because the game is poisoning itself slowly with their card releases.
its actually such a good idea for MBT to make his own set rotation format
He should do it like a Progression Series or something.
THATS WHAT IM SAYING. Ive wanted big creators to make a limited format and host tournaments and live stream games. Absolutely the type of wish fulfillment I would do in their position.
Go look at his first set. It's awful.
The point about old decks topping in new formats is very valid. It isn't Naturia or Prankids though. It's Madolche. Madolche tops randomly all the time which is cool.
Also they see tons of play at a lower level, every time a deck gets support they see play it just isn't at YCS level I have no clue why MBT is so aggressive against legacy support
@@TheWizardMusyeah I notice that with him a lot. Like he seems to feel if the added support doesn't turn the deck into an overnight meta threat it's just hot garbage and that's just a poor take imo. Some of us aren't looking to top a ycs lol, we just love the game.
Or just the possibility to play old cards in modern strategies.
Admittedly, I can only think of degenerate examples such as Branded Expulsion for Ido, the Supreme Magical Force or Smoke Grenade of the Thief in Infernoble Knights but in principle this is very funny and enables spicier deck building.
@@xCorvus7x Two more examples: Koa’ki Meiru Guardian in Adamancipator and the baby chaos dragons (and Sanaphond) in Dragon Link.
@@cephalosjr.1835 _True,_ also Koa'ki Meiru Dragon as a target for Hieratic Seal in Dragunity (maybe also Dragon Link).
Honestly looking forward to an MBT set rotation series now
He has an entire audience to milk for creating his content.
I WOULD WATCH THE SHIT OUT OF THAT
Do you mean progression playoffs
Well you got ur wish. You get to watch him play HERO with no Stratos against DM with no Dragoon. Oh doesn't that sound fun! /s
The thing is what Yugioh can actually do is not only allow the corsets but also the reprint sets. It's why for the longest time Magic the Gathering corsets existed it was a way to reprint Cards into the current formats that did not have to be in new sets.
Ok but do you know how many people are gonna use those cards? Unless they're staples like Raigeki, none. And the same is true for MTG. The only cards they reprint are older cards people actually care about. No one is going to buy Gren Maju
the issue is not having the places to reprint its the reprint bloat of reprints that are not high rarity versions or an easier to get printing. if a reprint set is made out of 90% bloat reprints the set is a waste and wont sell well. other games avoid the issue by being less archetypal so decks are split up by colour and type like artifact or goblin, it would only work in yugioh as a side format where decks are more generic like dark warrior instead of HERO
First of all, this was a great series, it would be cool to see something like this again.
Second, honestly, set rotation is the reason I'm more interested in collecting Pokémon cards than actually *playing* Pokémon. It just sucks having a deck and then suddenly not being able to play any deck or even try to play the deck. For example, yeah, Lightsworn is pretty bad, but at least I can *try* to play Chaos Lightsworn, or put the Lightsworn cards in a Tearlaments deck.
Of course the meta would largely be the same even if set rotation were a thing, but like many things, what doesn't really hurt meta decks much does hurt rogue decks and lower.
Okay. Let's use Pokemon to Yu-Gi-Oh as an example.
A top tier Pokemon deck, ever since I began playing, costs you roughly 300 from scratch for the premium best deck.
But let's say you're on a budget of oh idk 50 a month. For 50 a month you can get a rogue deck, with all the staples you'll ever need, for that amount of money. And when it's time to upgrade to a tier 1 deck you'll have those cards for several years of play. At which point when the cards have rotated, you'll possibly have them as a keepsake, you'll be able to sell them for roughly what you paid, or depending on collector interest it might even turn you a profit when you take into account time and usage.
With Yu-Gi-Oh, let's use one of the most drastic examples, but it's something I watched happen. Let's assume you bought Nekroz. Full power, triple Brio, triple Trishula, the works. This was a brand new thing, that aside from Manju and Senju, which arguably you could have had for months before the deck came out. Was still asking for 1500 on release. And you had about a month before the deck was only worth about half due to ban list problems. And then you had about a month after that where, because next big power creep thing, the deck is worth about 100. Now idk about you. But that's not something that sounds like good money. It literally sounds like you're burning money.
There are exceptions, Burning Abyss stayed relevant for about as long as an entire rotation would probably last. Dragon Rulers would have stayed that relevant if they hadn't gotten banned. Heroes in their various incarnations always find ways to stay relevant for several years if you're picking up that core from scratch. Kaiju are literally unable to be power crept.
Now speaking as someone who plays Pokemon more, I'll admit it does suck when a particular Pokemon I like gets rotated out. Because you're never sure when they're gonna reprint it again, if they reprint it again. But because they like Money, the dev team revisits ideas quite often. So let's say you like the idea of spread damage. They'll print another Pokemon who does a similar thing quite often. Even if it's not a direct 1:1 reprint. Then there's also plenty of times where it's a literal 1:1 reprint of cards from as old as 20 years ago.
@Aaron Wishard as much as it makes me sad watching my favorite pokemon/strategies get rotated, it forces me to make a new deck, which does keep it fresh.
@@aaronwishard7093 You assume that Pokemon is cheap due to rotation and not because they choose to keep their game affordable. Yugioh would not suddenly make the game cheaper.
@@luminous3558 Secondary market prices aren't set by Konami, they're set by market pressures. If everyone realizes that these cards have a limited shelf life the calculations change. This is especially true if we can bring power levels down and reprint cards into formats, meaning that you can play with older cards, increasing supply.
🤷 Personally I stopped playing pokemon BECAUSE I'm waiting for all of the Gen8 trash to rotate out.
a battle packs coming back would make a good way to have a set rotation side format each individual battle pack can be tailored for a specific metagame experience
This has been such a great series. MBT has made some of the best YuGiOh series and this one is certainly up there. I hope we see some iteration of this again in the future. Thank you mbt for making my Sunday evenings better!
For the love of Generaiders, please make more of these videos. It can be multiple of other personalities like Joshua Schmidt, PAK, Cimo, Shiggys and Golden Nova.
This was a great finale, gage was 100% right with the call for no liar, farfa refusing to learn anything about another game, and coder refusing to learn what set rotation actually is is too hilarious. I also would have liked more post liar discussion on the last episode, I will cry about it. I'll miss this series, but I'm always excited for the next one. would genuinely watch a video or stream of you and gage building a core set, I think that'd be really cool.
I'm sad that another great series is ending but can't wait to see what you come up with next. MBT really is killing it this year.
Please actually do a rotation series. That would be so hype and also make players understand what set rotation is and how it could be viable. I've played all of the big 3 and think yugioh could really benefit from a set rotation format.
MBT sort of already did with progression playoffs. It was sealed play but you got to see really distinct eras of Yugioh with different cards at the forefront with set rotation in effect. Especially when you compare it to Cimooooo and Gage's series it is amazing how diverese set rotation makes things.
The problem is a series cant really give you a proper, fair look at rotation, it would almost certainly be an overly polished example.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 But playoffs was using the sets already released as they are. Yugioh sets are not designed with rotation in mind. I'm talking about coming up with new set lists specifically for a limited format using the existing card pool. Would be a lot of work, but I think would be really good content.
It would be interesting to see, but I feel like it would primarily display the ways that YGO hasn't been designed for a rotation. Much like how sealed format series really shows off how the YGO sets were never designed for individual play.
Set rotation has never been viable, it's a bandaid on a bullet wound. The only reason why MTG and Vanguard players accept it is because that's the standard for those games. In reality, power creep is unavoidable but set rotation doesn't fix anything
Nooooo! Please renew magical hats at some point!! This show is so cool and i love the dynamics
Dude fr please don't cancel this series if it's at all viable not to. It's legit my favourite thing you make and imho the most rewatchable, and the format has potential way beyond what you've put it through so far. I'd take once a month if scheduling is the issue
People act like set rotation means you can't use cards that rotate out. Yes, in mtg standard rotates, but modern, pioneer, legacy, vintage, edh, and historic don't rotate. Gage saying the idea of a forbidden and limited list covering the whole game is unique is a straight up lie. Legacy, vintage, modern etc, obviously have ban lists in mtg. I have been going to official tournaments for mtg for over a decade with cards that have rotated out of standard, and my decks have been legal every single time. Once you introduce a rotating format, it is beyond obvious you would need at least one that doesn't. It takes a special kind of moron to think a company that wants their game to have longevity would just declare old cards to be unusable in all formats, especially those with competitive followings. I genuinely find that when you talk to Yugioh players about set rotation, over half of them honestly believe you can't use rotated cards in competitive settings.
"Imagine if those cards came out and the deck was banned"
Let me introduce you to the idea of returning mechanics and reprinting cards. So in the set that introduced the new naturias, they could simply also print the old ones too. So if you wanna focus on an extra deck mechanic for a block, you could find a really good or new archetype with it and reprint it with some new stuff
In theory, reprints do work very well, but there are so many cards in yugioh that there is inevitably going to be some sort of synergy that is rendered unusable simply because none of the designers thought of it at the time. Like, it would absolutely suck if Magicians' Souls came out and people who liked SPYRAL got very frustrated because their deck was too old to still be in rotation and no one is gonna expect something like Souls is gonna improve something like SPYRAL
@@munchrai6396 yes and if they want to play that spyral soul combo they have to play it in the regular tcg/ocg/md format. The point of set rotation is building a less powerful format where you can build your decks with new cards instead of old ones. An example would be raigeki rotating out but the new lightning storm coming in. People would expect a lightning storm instead of a raigeki and adapt. Floodgates would rotate out and you would expect maybe weaker never seen floodgates because the broken ones are not in the format. Trap cards would become stronger and combo decks more fair because some of the combo extender or generic bosses would rotate out. Its just better in every way. People who want to play the most broken shit or nostalgic shit would continue in the regular format and people who want to have a slower more balanced game would play the set rotation format.
@@munchrai6396 You'd be absolutely right that interactions that are unintended but awesome are missed out on. But that's just the problem with set rotations in general.
For example. In Pokemon's eternal format there's about a dozen FTKs as the best decks in the format. All because they abuse various unintended mechanics looping together.
But, let's use Spyral as the continued example, Spyral being a fan favorite probably means they'd be reprinted quite often. So even if they're not in the initial format Souls is printed in, since it'd be just out of most card games shelf life for rotations. They'd probably be reprinted in 6 months because the player base loves them alot. It's just like how Heroes constantly get new stuff.
@@munchrai6396 "inevitably going to be some sort of synergy that is rendered unusable simply because none of the designers thought of it at the time" Yes that's the point. Every time this hapens in the game nowadays, it's always some dumb floodgate or unbreakable board that we get which makes the game unfun or at worst unplayable (branded expulsion + gimmick puppet making branded miserable to play against for example)
the issue with needing to reprint cards to keep them in a format is for more archetype based games it causes a lot of bloat reprints for cards which do not need a reprint, which gives sets less value when a set is only half new or cards which needed a reprint. battle packs are better for a set rotation format since they are a separate thing which does not clog up sets.
Any card that has been rotated out of "Standard" can be reprinted in a subsequent set and once again be legal
This is by far the most entertaining series on the Yugitubing scene. I hope that there's more content like this in the future.
Last ? :((
I love this show ,i wish it lasted forever
MBT has said that he doesn't want these kinds of shows to go on forever, otherwise you're just scraping the bottom of the barrell *cough*twitterthread*cough*
I actually enjoy the long form discussions. If this was a podcast I'd listen lol.
This is the best series ever please don't discontinue it :(
Speaking as someone who plays multiple card games, I think this episode highlights the most insane exchange this argument always presents.
Person 1: "Rotation would cause these benefits, we've seen this happen in practice in Magic."
Person 2: "Okay but how would we deal with these side-effects of rotation?"
Person 1: "Well in Magic's case, they-"
Person 2: "WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MAGIC, STOP TALKING ABOUT THINGS I DON'T KNOW"
Everyone has their favorite card games and things about them but Yugioh players in particular seem to be the only ones who absolutely refuse to accept the idea that the game could be improved by adopting concepts from other games, while also at the same time refusing to even try to learn about the impact those concepts have already shown in practice. ...Which is very ironic when you consider Yugioh's origins.
Just to clear my mind about things I was screaming at my monitor during the episode, I think what Coder and Gage didn't seem to understand is that rotated-out cards aren't gone forever. If they want to make a deck playable in a post-rotation format they can easily reprint the cards needed. And on the other hand, they could also deliberately leave out unhealthy cards or cards that would overshadow new support. Imagine if they want to bring back Spright in a couple of years; reprint the basics of Blue, Jet, Carrot, Red, Pixies, Starter... but don't reprint Gigantic/Sprind/Elf (not the most ideal example since Elf got hit but bear with me for the example's sake), instead opting to print some new Extra Deck monsters that result in wildly different gameplay than what Gigantic/Sprind/Elf supported. Without rotation those cards would need to be stronger than their predecessors to even be considered for an ED slot (which also goes back to what Joseph was saying about lack of rotation further and more quickly driving power creep), and it would almost inevitably end with "why the hell would I play these instead of Elf". It not only encourages reprints of core cards from old archetypes, but allows them to explore entirely new ground that would otherwise be forced to either compete or fall in line with the deck's old style, while also allowing them to selectively remove problematic cards without killing off a deck entirely.
And just as counter-argument to the idea of the occasional cool old cards popping up: Book of Moon is an outlier in that it's just "good". When old cards suddenly are back on the menu because of newer ones, they almost always end up broken, either because some new archetype can exploit an old generic design with poor future-proofing (see: Instant Fusion) or because new mechanics/gameplay just were not designed with entire groups of old cards in mind (see: the addition of Link monsters necessitating that Dandylion, Grinder Golem, Gofu, etc. be put on the banlist). Or because, they're either floodgates as mentioned, or similar effects that just happen to hose whatever's relevant at the moment (see: Neko Mane King, The End of Anubis, Soul Drain, etc. popping up in Master Duel right now to try and make non-games out of Tearlament matchups).
Didn't expect it to end so soon but hey it was fun, can't wait to see what you've got coming up next.
Always love the energy of 4 guys talking and eventually shouting and at any moment one of them could snap and slit the other's throat with a card's edge
MBT try not to kill off a banger series challenge level impossible.
JOSEPH PLEASE IM ON MY HANDS AND KNEES HERE PLEASEEEEEE keep doing more magical hats this series is S tier and i know alot of the comments and community will agree we LOVE this series, yknow take a break from this sure but im BEGGING please bring this back with a 2nd season or something. its incredible refreshing to see the top creators for yugioh sit down and just discuss topics surrounding the game. maybe season 2 can have a new guest list or something idk but this series needs to come back please bro its too good.
Speed Duel and Battle Pack are Konami attempt at making player friendly yugioh. And I love them. I feel speed duel could have set rotation and no one would complain. We're in the gx speed duel era. Next, drop 5Ds, etc. Keeping speed duel balanced is going to get nutty(er) soon.
I just wanted to chim in and say how much I loved this series. I'm glad MBT is working hard and keeping the channel fresh, but I will miss this one a lot. I hope to see it come back in some way in the future!
I love that in this episode Coder does not pay attention to the faxt that rotation only happens every like 2-4 years
It's yearly in the 2 biggest rotating games though.
At least in MTG, rotation happens every year, but individual sets stay in rotation for about two years. I believe Pokemon is more or less the same.
There is no card game with rotation that does not rotate every year.
@@TheLetterJ0 I was more talking about what joseph said towards the end of the video. Still do think that's the best way to do it
@@DarkKnight179 Right but you don't lose every card every year. Cards are legal from 18-24 months
I think we should have a rotating format in addition to advanced, and honestly it would probably improve Advanced format as Konami would be focused on selling product for the rotating format thus Advanced would be more balanced(ergo problem cards dealt with faster and non problems brought back). In addition it would fix the power creep, which has been a problem for a while now.
This was really an amazing series💖
I'm really happy that we're blessed with such a fun community for our beloved game 💕 I love y'all
The other Great part of Set Rotation is that Generic Staples receive regular REPRINTS keeping the game accesible.
For example, Pokémon constantly reprints useful cards like Ultra Ball, and Professor’s Research.
Including designing stunningly beautiful Full Art/ Alternate art designs which hold their value regardless of how many reprints the card of that name gets.
If Pokémon Were Yu-Gi-Oh! Professor’s Research (discard your hand draw 7) would have had 1 secret rare short print a year ago which would mean only people willing to invest 700 dollars in the game can access it, gate keeping casual play and creating an unfair power imbalance against new or less wealthy players.
If AA - Zeus is still meta relevant but it’s going out of rotation next set, that means Konami would need to print a new AA- Zeus in the next set to allow players to keep using it. Maybe even being printed as a common, because let’s be honest. It’s one of the most played cards of all time it’s like the center space in a game of bingo.
The failure of Yu-Gi-OH up until this point has been refusing to differentiate between cards for collecting and cards with gaming utility.
I hope this next set represents Yugioh finally diversifying the Rarity options in the TCG and offering multiple rarities of the same card in each card set so that capitalist pigs can play their starlight prospy’s and the game can grow and be embraced by new generations for kids who can play their uncommon pot of prosperities.
Pokemon has printed cards with the same effects as ones that were rotated out. Sycamore was just Juniper with a different name. They could just reprint older cards that were rotated out into the format. With Gage's Evenly Matched example they could just print a card with the same effect. I think Coder and Farfa were thinking cards newer cards couldn't have the same or similar effects than older ones
there would be no reason to print evenly matched with a different name, you could just reprint evenly matched. Unless you wanted to give the legacy format 6 evenly matched
I think it would be smarter in that case to keep the name the same, just so that you can still use the older copies.
@@AndrewCrimefighter Well you see if the new legally distinct evenly matched were a secret rare then the reason to print it would be to force people to shell out 60$ for a desired single print card as opposed to letting them buy old structure deck commons from the secondary market.
@@luminous3558 but just like with magic or pokemon, you are still allowed to play those older versions of those cards if it has had a reprint in a new set.
@@TainyaGaming Not if that new card used a different name. Since it would be a new card. Which is what Konami would do since they love money.
Following up on what Farfa said at the end, I've love to see more of like a podcast-style series of people just talking about their takes on yugioh. The screaming is funny sure but I feel a lot more engaged by the actual discussion going on.
A rotation for the extra-deck summon mechanics would be a way to reign in Links from consuming the ban list
Oh yes let's literally make several decks completely unplayable and make weaker decks who could use them just as weak as they were before, good plan
@@557deadpool Links are a mix of too free, and given the repeated bans of these newer links, too game warping.
The mechanic was never intended to be this powerful, but instead, it was to limit every other decks power by forcing everyone to run links to use their extra deck. But the last master rule changed that and its made the game a bit of a revolving door of X or Y link monster bulldozing the game and then being banned. That ain't good.
@@nm2358 go away.
@@ttkrystal8329 I tried but someone responded to my month old comment telling me to leave.
My favorite part about the lack of set rotation is looking at a new card and brainstorming what old strategies it could improve. Unintentional synergies like Magicians' Souls rebooting SPYRALs are a big benefit to deckbuilding in Yugioh and the experience of searching for obscure synergies between decks makes for the most interesting deckbuilding experience that I've ever had from a TCG.
As someone who used to play Pokemon the most frustrating thing is finding some sort of cool synergy and realizing that those cards will never interact with each other. The worst example of this is when you have different iterations of the same archetype that are just not allowed to interact with each other. My favorite example of this is the Lost Zone in Pokemon, a mechanic that has been finally gifted a robust engine, but lacks any on theme, late game payoff for said engine. Sure, Sableye is really powerful, but the fact that we do not have access to a Pokemon that can turn the Lost Zone directly into power/versatility is an absolute travesty. Pokemon like Mew Prime or Call of Legends Lucario would be so dope backed up by the new support
Loved this show. Would def love to see it come back in the future. Maybe we get new guests, but the energy of this cast is insane. Would be interested to see Dzeeff or Cimo in this kind of show tho.
This was probably my favorite series on TH-cam! Sad to see it finished, but this was an amazing send off!
As a Pokemon player, some older cars, trainers in particular, get reprinted constantly. So even though we have rotation for standard that only allows the last 3 years of cards be playable, some trainers and some Pokemon are word for word reprints. Thei also allows for some cards to still be playable. Professors Research and ultraball are common reprints and if it is reprinted any last printings are legal. I have a hard time playing Yu-Gi-Oh as the power creep is too much.
Coming from another Pokemon player. Gust of Wind/Boss' Orders has been in the game more often than it hasn't been. Same for Professor's Research/Professor Oak. Plus they bring back older cards even when it's Pokemon all the time. The first one that came to mind was during the Ultra Sun and Moon sets they reprinted a bunch of Gen 3 cards, with some of them only being spiritual reprints. Most were duds, but the fact that they did something that literally couldn't happen in Yu-Gi-Oh is awesome.
Bringing up the expanded format in Pokémon like it hasn’t been forgotten by TPCI for the last 3 years
I now want a playmat of Coder and Farfa being lectured at TCC
For Coder's point around the 20:30 mark, I think some summons types would have to be excluded or changed from some sets, at least starting out. When breaking each of the summoning mechanics down to their basic parts, they're all just different forms of Fusion Summoning (Namely Contact Fusion), with Links and XYZ having their own special mechanics added onto that (And Synchros having the restriction of Tuner monsters). You use 2 or more cards to bring out 1 monster that is typically stronger than its individual parts.
However, this is not the case with Pendulum Monsters. Pendulum is so different from any of the other Summoning mechanics that I'd say that it would have to be excluded from any set rotation format *unless* the entire mechanic were to be reworked.
Like maybe you could just make it glorified special Summoning. When you Pendulum Summon, the cards in the Pendulum zones are either Summoned or sent to the GY. That is just a general example though, and there is a lot more that could be done for Pendulum besides what we have currently, or even what I said.
If anything i think record attendance levels are a GOOD reason to make a big change that might compartmentalize the playerbase a bit. If you have to do it eventually, wouldn't you rather do it now when you have the players to support 2 formats, rather than when the game is on it's last legs?
They have 2 formats right now (not counting md & duel links) & attendance for speed duel events is not good. I think for konami it would make more sense to try & lift up that format instead of making a new one. Or they could import rush duel if they're gonna give up on speed duels
Awe i feel like you could totally do more of these. There's so many topics.
Pokemon player here - Big agree with MBT.
While I get the appeal of expanded and unlimited formats, I also think the way everyone except MBT framed and understood it is completely inaccurate to how rotations actually happen and behave.
To start, I think rotation would be great for Yugioh. I've had a casual interest in the series for years, and have been looking more into the game within the last year. And I'm often disappointed that certain types of decks that I think look cool and good, like the solfachords, wind up being bad in part because the meta seems to preoccupied with keeping a balance between old cards and new ones. I think that causes cool decks to suffocate because they're just too close in proximity to another powerful archetype that needs a lot of cards to push it out of contention. That's why I like rotations, it just lets overcentralizing pieces of a game to naturally get phased out so other cards can have a shot.
Rotations just put constraints on the card pool, and they can reprint, reintroduce, and tune mechanics as the game progresses with each individual format. It lets certain types of mechanics to flourish at times, without having to accommodate or address older cards. Lost Box is one of the premier decks in Pokemon atm, and if you were to look at expanded it would be completely wiped out because so much exists in that format that just invalidates it.
On reprints and power scaling, Pokemon is a good example of how you can still print wildly powerful cards like Acro Bike, Trekking Shoes, and like five flavors of trade, which are all +1 draws at the cost of discarding a card in different ways, while tempering them with a format that stops them from getting out of hand.
Heck we're getting a BUFFED N, and it looks pretty balanced in perspective with the format we're going into. We have cards that would break older cards like Scoop Up Net, but had a smaller impact because the format was specifically designed to stop it from being overpowered.
And you can actively revisit older cards and mechanics. Pokemon has a stable 20+ cards that get reprinted every few years to keep them in format and then lets other powerful cards to be redone/revamped for other decks to allow for more variety.
I know that I'm coming at this from a wildly different point of view, but I think Pokemon and Yugioh have a lot in common when you look at how sets are built. You have what looks like a tempered raigeki at times, or cool battle traps, all of which getting looked over because the meta game has long since exceeded their viability. Rotation would let these cards develop more useful and consistent niches, imo.
Don't speak for us if you don't play this game.
I kinda love how I thought that this was going to be an interesting discussion about rotation in Yu-Gi-Oh. But instead... I realized that this is actually a comedy about 1 guy that understands how rotation works trying to explain it to the others.
You should have gotten those 3 to be your cohosts of the rotation series, in a Prog Playoff style thing with an elimination tournament. See if you can win them over by the end. 😂
i would be SO HYPED to play a rotation format, its something i was looking into whether it was possible a few months ago
This has been a sad year for series on this channel 😢
This was absolutely the best episode of this series. A beautiful finale. I do hope you bring it back eventually. I think a break is good but I love these discussions as a nonplaying enjoyer (I play Magic, and watch Yu-Gi-Oh, I am one of those people MBT mentioned).
"after 10 weeks, You can't expect me to have a reasonable take?"
Wait?! Gauge knows his takes are bad?!
The issue with something like speed duel to me is that you HAVE to buy new cards. Whereas set rotation where you can use old cards you don't need to invest much more. If they printed cards without short prints and chase cards it could work
You don't even have to only use the new sets.
They could print something with idk volcanic synergy and have the set they were released in be playable.
They could also just not rotate. Ever considered that? All the pro rotation arguments just try to downplay the massive downsides. There isnt a real benefit that isnt solvable by a banlist.
@@luminous3558 You mean that thing that's just a band aid?
Pokemon is a prime example. Is there power creep? Sure, anyone with a graph could show you that.
However there are definitely peaks and valleys. In fact the current Scarlet and Violet meta is the culmination of roughly 6 years of peeling back the power creep that they introduced into the game from the tail end of Sun and Moon .
Oh it's over! Really fun, thanks for getting the peeps together mbt, I get why you wanna curtain this one after a bit
MBT: Pro set-rotation, keeps bringing up magic
Magic's most popular format: a 100 card singleton non-rotating format built around a legendary creature.
I think set rotation would pretty much kill legacy support since as of now it's easy to fit legacy support within a set alongside the new archetypes, whereas now, it's impossible since for the archetype you'd also have to fit the archetype itself into the sets, and with the set size as of now, you'd have to make them magic sized probably or overhaul set structure to make room for the extra sets for the core/reprint sets.
This was such a fun series. Even though it only lasted for a couple of weeks, it was something I very much enjoyed. MBT making another banger series as always.
We already do, but I would personally love an actual rotation. Makes it so cards don't need 4 paragraphs of text to be playable.
Magic has like 900 keywords so how did rotation actually make IT less wordy? So why would it work for YGO?
Poor MBT, being the only sane and knowledgeable person on the panel.
Coder was so frustrating and hardheaded in this that if they introduced set roration and he quits, I wouldn't mind. And I like the guy.
The problem with this series is that coder and gage will do this thing where they just decide they're right and then pretend to be complete idiots and not understand the other point
They were right in this case though. MBTs argument is just that MTG does it and its not dead(yet). Farfa doesnt really understand the topic. Gage is actually in his element here because it plays into his cardgame economics knowledge. Coder sort of gets the casual view of things perfectly right and the outrage at the differing formats for MTG tournaments is also extremely warranted. Most people only have the money for 1 format.
@@luminous3558 these are all non arguments
Bro, I'm really gonna miss this series! It was the greatest thing to watch on monday mornings, I really hope you bring it back, the discussions where so insghtful even thoght there was a fake take, it would really make you think about some yugioh topics that you regularly don't hear about
I really really hope you guys bring this one back
Kohdok already explained well, that at most, the desire for set Rotation the most ultimately Corporate charged, not the players. Set Rotation is a surefire way to artificially bump sales, i mean, you have no choice. Your card expires IN A YEAR. Though, Magic:The Gathering is actually the biggest Cautionary Tale of how set Rotation can absolutely go wrong in the long run. The reserve list basically turned out to become a Time Capsuled Shotgun on the foot for MTG. And now, stores has no problem turning old MTG stocks to landfill, because set Rotation guarantee older sets will be as good as glorified ass wipes once rotated. Even new stocks get landfilled to either generate artificial scarcity, or because store realized its better to landfill products that will never be sold, than keep them wearhoused, eating tax money.
Amazing video!!! YOU GUYS GOTTA CONTINUE THIS PLEASE!!
God they don't understand how healthy rotation is
Mbt left out a very important bit of info about competive magic, and that is when it comes to the competitive scene modern, which is a non-rotated format, is "magics premiere competitive format" in wizard' own words.
Good lord this was Coder at his worst. The sheer level of bad faith he was engaging in this discussion in was hurting. He was refusing to understand what was being said, and actively going out of his way to cut MBT off to give limp gotchas as if he was already right. Farfa at the very least was just being dumb, struggling with basic inference. But Coder actively dragged the conversation down. Still, was probably one of the most entertaining episodes, and a good one to end on.
MBT: a deck doesnt just get 1 new card and just come back into the meta
*looks at Dark World (sure they got 3 new cards they use but the deck still uses many old ones), Volcanics, Gem Knight got 1 new card and became an FTK nightmare, Mathmech with Circular, Frogs with Toadally Awesome, Mermail with Neptabyss, etc*
MBT shouldn't have argued with them instead he should have printed a picture of him as the chad with the caption, "Weakest Set Rotation Warrior," and the rest as the virgin. Then proceed to point at it saying that's them and that's him.
And he still would have won 🗿
@@SpencerCJ no doubt about it. It shouldn't have EVEN TRIED to talk to them.
Master Duel player here.
Btw, set rotation is already exist in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's called archetypes, i.e. most cards in archetypes hard bind to the archetypes, so if archetype not in the meta, then all the cards too, so old cards pretty much rotates into rogue. Exceptions are staples and boss monsters, i.e. core set - cards from old sets that's still legal in new set. Rotating cards - ban list. (E.g.: we will rotate Yata-Garasu and N years later, wow, look it's coming back to core set.) If Konami wouldn't want to see staples, board breakers, boss monsters and other "core set" cards in the current set, Konami would have just banned them.
Even with rotation power creep exist because developers think that power creep make audience exited for new sets, power creep wouldn't stop and wouldn't be even smaller, because it's depends on card designers skill, not just set rotation.
So only thing that set rotation would bring - it would kill all rogue deck, wow, how exiting to punish old casual fans.
New player, hard to start? No, because as a new player a year ago I would say - new players just read top 3 meta decks and staples, oh, wait, it's basicly last set. So no difference, exept some times you would see on the bottom of the ladder some weak strange deck and it is more fun to interact and see strange mechanics from the old sometimes, as a new player, then see 3 exact same deck and combos all the time. I want that fresh air in the ladder as a new player.
Going a little bit back in time. If Konami wouldn't want to see staples, board breakers, boss monsters and other "core set" cards in the current set, Konami would have just banned them. Why anybody would think that Konami would definatly rotate such "problematic" cards, even throught right now they want to see them in the game? I mean if Konami would rotate their game designers, so their view on the game would shift, that another story, but it's not set rotation, it's office rotation )))
But nevermind, episode is fire as always, and I guess it's my favourite show on your channel, MBT, pls come back with magical hats later, it's super fun and entertaining. Thanks for episode, and keep doing what you doing )
I would love MBT and Gage to have this discussion more with people that understand what set rotation is. The other two were so hard to listen to.
11:00 Joseph literally did a feature match THIS YEAR playing HERO, fair point
My biggest critique of Set Rotation is that MBT goes "Ah well it stops the power creep" and to a level that is correct... it then introduces mechanic creep. Using MTG as an example, how many keywords are we at now? Can a new set come out and just use the existing keywords? No. Because there needs to be a Wow Factor to the new cards, and typically those new cards are going to in their own world be powerful, find positions in eternal formats and warp them, because they may not be Literal Ancestral but they will be oh... A Companion or Mutate or Adventure.
Hell let's take MTG off the sacrifical altar, that is exactly what happens in the Pokemon TCG, they always need a new mechanic, they always need a new big flashy wow thing with its own high power level, and do you know why? Because nobody is gonna buy the same fucking cards with a new skin. We have proof of this, a lot of TCGs have died at set rotation specifically, MonColle is probably the best example of this. When the first rotation hits and the player base is going "Oh, the cards I had have lost value, and I have to buy an entirely new set of cards to keep going, and most of these new cards are weaker than the old ones and do nothing new, so why am I paying to basically be on the eternal treadmill?"
There always has to be something new, something exciting, whether it be power or feature creep. And if you don't see that you are lying to yourself. The Professor in fact has an amazing video lambasting MTG over all the new wacko things it's done in the past decade and just how much states you need to keep track of. Is it Day or Night, Have you found the Golden City? Time to explore a dungeon! And also seize the initiative! Do you have a Party? This'd be like if every set of Yugioh had to introduce a new extra deck summoning mechanic.
It also really doesn't stop power creep, it just cycles it and it can be very rough. MTG could print a slow timmy set to start a standardcycle off and then release the most absurd aggro cards one set later to forever ruin that cycle.
The earlier on you buy-in the weaker you are to powercreep making your cards worthless and the later you buy-in the closer you are to rotation.
@@luminous3558 Yup, I remember Standard was unplayable garbage for like 4 fucking years. Just the longest period of time of pure "Please fucking end my suffering there is no point to be playing this game" Hey Remember Ikoria, and Eldraine, and when fucking Worlds just like what a year or two ago, was 95% people playing Alrund's Izzit? No no tell me how fucking Rotation definitely made the game better.
"Oh but you can go play other formats" Cool, I can go mortgage my house to afford a modern deck. Pauper? Great lemme know when an event fires for it. Draft? Great my buy in to play the game is every time I want to play it! I love limited, but lmao "Yeah every time you wanna play it'll be $15"
@@HavenKhaos yeah the alternate formats of Modern, Legacy and Vintage are too expensive. Not to mention with WotC's recent actions they're driving away many players so even entrenched players aren't playing any more at my LGS they couldn't even get a Modern event to fire.
What's the name of that professor video?
@@Powerman293 The Commander Deck Of The Future...Today! | A Descent Into Magic: The Gathering Madness
This has been such a good series, love just getting to hear the big Yugioh nerds talk about Yugioh, there's an ever present passion for this game that is palpable from anytime MBT, Gage, Farfa, and Coder speak that makes this so much fun
I'll miss this series, but I'm so excited for Rotation Series! It's content like this that will keep this community alive for years to come