I have always thought that Durin's Bane was aware of Sauron but refused to serve him since he was not Melkor and Sauron didn't try too hard to recruit it since he could tell that it would not serve him.
I kinda like that troupe where there is an evil that is even bigger than the main evil, but the main evil doesn't even want to bother the bigger threat because of fear.
It's the same situation with Shelob. Officially, she isn't in league with Sauron but she is strategically placed to defend the hidden path to Mordor so she serves Sauron's interest as well. Durin's Bane worked the same way as Smaug did- a distinct evil that while not serving Sauron did acts that benefited him. Smaug occupied Erebor for decades and (most importantly) shattered the Kingdom of Dale to prevent another Mannish realm from opposing him. Durin's Bane and the goblins of Moria prevented the Dwarves from re-occupying their ancient capital, leaving the North more vulnerable.
Yeah that's right. Durin's bane is Melkor's servant and he wouldn't serve anyone else. It seems that the balrogs' very purpose is to serve Melkor and after his defeat, the balrog just sleeps under a mountain, having nothing else to do. Even after he wakes up, he just hangs out and kills anyone who dares to come there
Sauron, especially without his Ring, wants zero part of a fight with a Balrog. I think it was very much a, you leave me alone, I leave you alone, kinda relationship lol
Yes. I would also add that the Balrog did not serve Sauron even back in the Second Age, when Sauron had physical form and was in possession of the One Ring. Not even that made Sauron powerful enough to force the Balrog to do his will. At the end of the day, the Balrog is a Maiar, like Sauron himself. And although Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, he wasn’t powerful enough to bend beings of his own kind to his will - just as Melkor was never powerful enough to bend any of the other Valar to his will.
"What is this new devilry?" Yet another subject to get the fan base riled up 😏 I personally really like the depiction in the film, it's almost as iconic as the fellowship and Sauron himself. As for the wings issue, look the book Balrog didn't have wings the movie version did, there debate over lol we can have and enjoy both for both give a different take on the character and overall story I rather think the shadowy wings help remind us that these were once beautiful Mair that fell by following Morgoth.
The balrog, Durin's Bane is that one LOTR villain can definitely be considered so deadly for our heroes to face regardless of which version you prefer. Whether if it be the book version or the movie version of Durin's Bane.
Wings or no wings, Balrogs really were one of the scariests “monsters” ever imagined! At least in my experience, I could really feel the terror the company was feeling during their encounter
Wings or no wings aside, I think the wings in the movie were meant for the Balrog to look more imposing and as we saw, the wings didn’t work because they were full of holes.
I am not sure what is suggesting that they didn't work! If you mean the way the Balrog fell into the abbys, then I'd say it makes sense! Seriously try flying an airplane under the conditions the Balrog found himself in! There is no way to gain lift in there.
A few things to consider. Maiar are clearly not uniform in appearance. You have old men (Istari), beautiful and fair beings (Annatar), terrible monsters (Balrogs), and literal birds (Eagles). Granted, there may be some quote I don't know of to prove me wrong, but I can't see why we should assume that all of Morgoth's Balrogs should look the same. Maybe some had wings, and some didn't. Maybe the wings were literal, but completely useless. Who knows. As for the quotes from the book, it can be interpreted both ways. But consider the following made-up quote: "As he rose with the setting sun shining its last light behind him, a halo could be seen around his head, like a gleaming crown of heavenly light. [...] but the crown he so briefly wore was now a testament in memory alone, since it could not endure the cold embrace of darkness." It describes the crown in the same manner as the wings of the Balrog, but there's no doubt that there wasn't ever a literal crown. My conclusion: There is nothing to suggest that Balrogs didn't have wings. Even though the description in the books is rather vague, and seems more figurative than literal, it proves nothing either way. But the movie Balrog was in my opinion so incredibly awesome that I will forever perceive it as the canonical appearance, no matter what.
Maiar are spiritual beings, and their physical raiment is entirely up to them (although might be affected by their choices). The Istari decided to appear that way, although Gandalf sometimes appeared as an elf, or even walked unseen.
Nothing in the books to say they didn't have wings is precisely saying they did not have wings. Theres also nothing saying Gandalf didn't walk with a limp or have a comically huge nose.. Nobody on earth considered them having wings until the movies.
@@thomasb.3040 My bad. Tolkien considered them Maiar at one point, but went back on it - I messed up the order. But the point still remains - Maiar have many different shapes and forms.
A balrog is a creation, not an evolution. Its form is in large part intended to terrify. Essentially, a costume. If wings have a satisfying intimidation factor, then that would be enough reason to have wings regardless of function, like a cobra has a hood and little lizards have frills and etc.
One of the best scenes in Fellowship was when Gandalf names the Balrog, the camera pans to Legolas, and you can see the naked FEAR on his face. He is a descendant of Doriath. He knows the tales. He is not some Avari Silvan Elf. Thranduil was born in Doriath, so he KNEW.
You're forgetting one of the descriptions. It's in the chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" as they are approaching the bridge: "The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: *_it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater_* ; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
I always loved that description. Anyone who has been close to certain large powerful intelligent animals like a tiger, lion or elephant without bars or windows around knows they have a massive presence.
It's interesting to me that the balrog caused Legolas to cry out and drop his bow but he had no fear in the Paths of the Dead. And BTW, I f finally got a notification from TH-cam for this video. First one in months.
remember, his father and grandfather would have been there in the First Age. he'd probably heard enough about Balrogs to be very (and rightfully) afraid of them
Personally I like the wings even though I had been reading the books for 23 years before the films came out. It's a case of live and let live or each to their own. I see no point in fighting over it in perpetuity. ❤❤❤😊😊😊
In the movie, it looks to have the "skeleton" of wings but no membrane like a dragon. Kinda a like a demonic peacock; "wings" are for show. I love the movie version as that's the one I grew up with, I didn't get into the books until more recently.
@@ghostdreamer7272 I wish they'd give the balrog some dialog yes instead of him just roaring. I agree there. But When I think the word balrog I don't think of a humanoid figure. I honestly don't get where people are getting that idea from. The maiar where not uniform in appearance. like didn't sauron have the ability to change his physical appearance to a bat a wolf and many other forms if I remember right. I personally think what jackson did with the balrog was the right call for the most part. I do wish the balrog would of said something tho in black speech against Gandalf.
Not everything that have wings can fly Not all that is dead is forever gone The fire that burned hot was now quenched The wingless again shall be flown 👀
The description if Durin's Bane in the book seems to me pretty much like it is in the movie with the big wings, but the whole body of the thung being a shadow. Like if you looked at it you'd just see a black void in the shape of a balrog, with fire all around it.
One big reason this is a fun discussion is that, like most evil things, the Balrog doesn't fully manifest in the visible spectrum. Durin's Bane is defined by its outline, like a black hole. The middle is uncertain darkness, save the eyes. Powerful, pure-evil things are rarely visible at all (ex. Sauron, Nazgûl, etc.).
Man, I followed Facebook Group and they debated: "Wings or Not?" for a while. Even thought it would be cool, Tolkien did say..."Like Wings" so its a Metaphoric Wings!!! Also the Balrog looks great 20 Years Later...Why don't other things look good now?!!! Thanks Mellon for your Video: How the Films changed the Balrog, Until more Unknown Lands Part 2...Marion Baggins Out!!!
Right? Tolkien was, shall we say, very well-acquainted with the English language and its uses, and you have to be very disingenuous or ignorant to insist that they were literal wings.
I think the balrog wanted to appear as though he had wings as an intimidation factor, and so made the shadow do that. The other thing is he's basically made out of shadow and flame so if he gave himself wings out of shadow he had wings, even though there function is more like that of a cape.
Before they were too long in their "terrible" forms, the Balrogs went swiftly to rescue their master Melkor from a greedy Ungoliant. They are described as moving like "tempests of fire," so that clears everything up cleanly /s. When I read this, I pictured them reverting into a primal fire spirit form like a much smaller version of Ulmo's wave form. PJ's Balrog is more D&D Balor than Tolkien's Balrog, but it looks cool and it a movie, that's what counts. It's difficult to portray spiritual dread on the silver screen to invoke the same terror that a winged fire demon can with just the visuals. I imagine Sauron knows of the Balrog because he sent orcs to Moria. Orcs are not subtle so I would guess their were introductions or a few orc buffets before perhaps sent some orcs were brave enough to parley? I doubt that went well but who knows. They probably got the Maia version of, "Get Off My Lawn!"
The balrog is, I still believe, the greatest CGI creation of all time! It still to this day amazes me how terrifying it looks and how fearsome is it. I do however prefer the mystery surrounding Moria and Durin's Bane in the books. A hidden threat is always more scary than a revealed one.
1:00 to 1:07 Synopsis award goes to you, Yoystan! The Balrog called Durin's Bane was awakened when the Dwarves 'delved too deeply for mithril.' 1:35 to 1:52 2:32 Concerning Balrogs, and WINGS
Um, actually. They didn't even hired it. The Balrog just showed up one day threatening the set. Luckily, Sir Ian McKellen was so in-character that he fought it off
They all started out as creatures of fire. But once they were corrupted and became balrogs, then they were creatures of fire and shadow. It says in the Silmarillion that the maiar who became the sun was a spirit of fire who Melkor tried to corrupt also but she never heeded him.
I mean it still stands up well in todays CGI playbook but things I imagined in books never really live up to my expectation in films but Im good with that 😅
As a pure fan, I found the belrog was one of the best movie adaptations requiring large CGI to exist. The way fire grew and receded across his body was so lifelike that your belief in this character deepened with each breathe. His texture and movement were amazingly lifelike. As we know that Gothmog spoke, I only wish that they gave Durin’s Bane a line or two as I would love to hear how this brilliant Weta team depicted his voice.
In the book it casts spells, but not seen directly, Gandalf tells Aragorn I think, that something almost broke him. This is right before the fight on the bridge, so we can assume it spoke to Gandalf though not shown.
There are a number of times that magical creatures cast spells without speaking an encantation. When Dustin’s cast a spell to counter Gandalf’s on the door separating the group from the balrog, this would have been a great time to add his speech. I do recognize I am asking for the sun when already given the earth and moon within this scene.
I think it quite possible Balrog's had wings but could not actually fly with them. But under certain circumstances, they might help it go faster on the ground; this would help explain how they were able to get from Angband to aid Morgoth when Ungoliant attacked him. I'm confident Sauron knew a Balrog was in Moria. However, Durin's Bane, even after seizing Moria, showed no real interest in the outside world so I think it is less likely the Balrog knew about Sauron although it is possible some of Sauron's Orcs told him.
I like to think there would be diversity between Balrogs, as like with Dragons, Morgoth created them to suit particular needs, and got better at their creation as he went along. Perhaps, again like Dragons, the first Balrogs didn't have wings, but later ones did. Overall though, I like Peter Jackson's bestial terror, if the Balrog had been a bloke in a suit no one would have taken it seriously.
Whether or not all Balrogs have wings is another question entirely. But I think the second quote makes it clear that Durin’s Bane at least has Wings. And I don’t see this as an issue, even when it comes to “why didn’t he fly after he fell into the pit”, as there are many examples of winged animals on earth that cannot fly. Penguins, Ostrich, etc. as well as things like Flying Squirrels or Lizards (though they aren’t true wings). So I’m firmly in the Winged camp. 😁
Would you do a second video to this including the details given in the Silmarillion’s details regarding Balrogs and their “wings”? Suck as when Melkor screamed for the Balrogs when facing Ungoliant after the destruction of the two trees? I believe there is another instance of when Tolkien uses the description of wings or flight.
I honestly don't understand some people resistance to the idea that the Balrog had wings. As far as I'm concerned the one that Gandalf fought did. It's right there in the description. "...It's wings spread from wall to wall..." Now whether those are actual physical wings or manifestations of flame and shadow makes no real difference to me. The wings are there. They are described so Gandalf and the others can obviously see them. I would have been very disappointed if the movie version had not had wings.
The film's depiction of the Balrog strikes a pretty good middle ground on the matter of the wings debate. It has the wings, but they are nonfuctional aside from making it appear more threatening, not unlike the passage from the book here its wings were spread.
I willingly conceed that canon Balrogs had no wings, but they definitely look way better with them.they can be purely decorative, they don't need to function, but they certainly look better for them.
Personally I agree they should have wings (but not for the reason you may think. So basically it was a stylistic choice from Jackson and I think it’s a fantastic idea for one particular reason, the balrogs origins. In the future my plan is to make my own lord of the rings project, (Infact it’s a dream of mine to make an adaptation of the first years of middle earth and of Arda, and that includes the Silmarillion up till the fall of numenór in the second age and beyond, but until then I’d like to make a project about the Silmarillion) that aside when I make these projects (which are very balrog heady, such as the balrogs saving melkor from Ungoliant and the balrogs attack during the fall of gondolin and the war of wrath) I will be using the idea of balrogs having wings because if you think about it the balrogs are fallen fire Miar which would class them as almost fallen angels in my mind as least so them having winds is cool because they haven’t got wings, they have been burned off and distorted but the memory of them still remains, the image of them, coverted in shadow and flame…
I would think balrog and Sauron would be aware of each other; but evil does not help each other. Melkor had inferiors as his underlings. I think it served Sauron's purpose to have an unknowing 'ally' stuck in a gaol acting as a bulwark against movement from elves in the west. As Sauron used shelob, it most likely tickled him to have such a powerful player stuck, and thus acting as a pawn he would work around.
I imagine Sauron more than likely preferred the Balrog to remain ignorant of the goings on until he had obtained the one ring , after which we will never know as he never obtained it. But I would Imagine Sauron would be deathly afraid of an equal (which remember the balrog was essentially) of a dark temperament learning of the rings existence and perhaps obtaining it himself.
That Balrog just wanted to be left alone, then a bunch of dwarves broke into its house, followed by a goblin infestation. Then, more home intruders came and murdered him. Life just isn't fair.
If the estimate of Sauron’s forces being more than sufficient to defeat the forces arrayed against them are accurate, then it makes sense Sauron would not recruit the balrog. With the balrog in Khazad Dum there’s one less place for the forces of good to build power. So leaving him there seems to back the idea that Sauron had overwhelming forces so long as his ring was intact. However, if the upcoming battle seemed to be in doubt I would think Sauron would have done his best to sell the balrog on finally fulfilling Morgoth’s goal.
I wonder if the movie was a reference to the animated film as much of the fellowship was nods to it. In the animated film it had wings and flew around a bit.
I like how Gandalf slew the Balrog in the film version as at least I think it was a homage to Gandalf's fight with the Nazgul on Weathertop as said with "Lightning and Fire" and so seeing Gandalf, possibly commanding the Lightning, which is often resembled as the power of the Heavens to strike down the Balrog, a creature of the Underworld/Hell was pretty awesome. I don't think the Barog would ever submit to Sauron, since Sauron was not Melkor and that they would likely vie for dominance over each other. Even if the Orcs originally were sent by Sauron, they held worship and reverence to the Balrog as the true ruler of Moria. It would be very interesting to see a conflict between Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog.
I've personally always preferred that the Balrog had wings, and have little struggle accepting that, even with them, it could not just fly back up. Maybe aerodynamics aren't huge on Tolkien's work of fanciful fiction, but in such a confined space, I imagine it could maybe, at best, just slow its fall, and then that might even help the spelunking wizard catch up to it. More than that, though, I imagine back to the Balrogs that had to go and save Morgoth. He cried for help, and his lieutenants came for him, but how far away from Angband were they? Did these Balrogs lope across the uneven, fractured earth that surrounded his citadel? Did Ungoliant sit there and ponder how to devour the Dark Lord, while they covered the distance? She was truly massive, at that point, and I don't believe they were so likely to overpower her from below. In my head, they flew at best speed, like comets of flame, maybe even distracting the eater of light, and fell upon her from above, where she couldn't as easily counterattack, or ensnare, them. That's me, of course, and certainly purely personal preference. Perhaps they also came in varieties, with some that did, and others nor, as they willed it when they took on their forms in Middle Earth.
the book: slightly taller than a man, a fallen angel spirit (Maiar) like Gandalf, wielding a whip of fire The movie: eldrich monstrosity that towers in the mountain halls and stood humongous against the mere mortal size of Ian Mckellen's frame, wielding a sword and whip of flame in regards to the wings...I think it doesn't really need to mean anything. Given how it's depicted in the movie, I think the wings are like...how do I explain this...like a frame. Like it has the bones and pieces of the wings to form the shape, but there's no skin canvas for them to fly. Since in the film the Balrog never flew, so I saw them as a chicken...in that they had wings but were flightless, and if their wings were like 'skeletons' with 'no skin' between the fingers of the wingspan
It made sense in the book that Gimli knew it and Gandalf did not; the Dwarrow do not share their history or their secrets, not even their enemies, lightly. As to wings, they didn't have wings in that sense, yeah.
I don't think it is very likely that any of the Dwarves in Khazad-dûm knew that it was a Balrog attacked them. The last Dwarves that would have ever seen one would have died off well over a 1000 years earlier. So, while Gimli knew it had to be Durin's Bane, I doubt he knew it was a Balrog.
The second quote about wings has to be taken in context of the first really. Though wings..if you think about it. Sauron and Melkor and the Balrogs all lose their ability to disrobe in effect and leave their physical shell, and for say Melkor it is in direct consequence of events. Wings are the province of the air..which is Manwe's domain. They may have been wings in the actual sense before they fell and now are "shadow wings" after their corruption..it also bugged me how the Balrogs moved so fast from Angband at Melkors Ungoliant shout.
I'm gonna be honest with you, when a demon of shadow and flame has "shadows like wings" those are wings. Or did the Balrog not have a sword either, just fire in the shape of a sword?
I’ve always thought the wings were smoke fumes from the burning body of the balrog , even in the movie they’re not clear physically parts, they manifest with fire when it jumped, same as the fire sword
I would to see a theory on what would happen if Durin's Bane had gotten the one ring as I don't think as some might think that the balrog was a mindless beast while he would not be probably a where of what has happen outside Moria sense he has not left I'm sure he would sense Sauron presents on and in the ring and would think he would try to contact him though I know if the would ally or fight each other though I'm sure their might be some betrayal at the end
It is funny. Gandalf 's stave did shatter in the movie. Just not completely. The section from his hand up was intact, but the rest shattered to splinters. I watched that scene so many times as a kid as Gandalf was always my favorite character. But looking back at it, that made the most scene, otherwise he would have had a harder time turning around on that very narrow bridge with a piece of wood as long as he was tall.
Balor was a demon defeated by Fionn mac Cumhaill also spelt McCool for English spelling I always wondered did he get balorogs from this story as he definitely used Irish myth Huan is very Irish sounding he also exactly like an Irish wolfhound he also named gollum after a cave in Ireland called Pog Na Gollum
I Will point out that Gimli thought the fell beast was Durin’s Bane. I think that’s some solid evidence that the balrog had wings because it was flying and I don’t know why he would think that if he didn’t. It’s up to the interpretation of the reader though
The Balrog's wings are made of smoke in the movie... It's got the skeletal structure of wings but the "skin" that would stretch between the fingers of the wings is made of smoke. So, the wings wouldn't be functional for flying... no plot hole. You can see this crystal clear when Gandalf and the Balrog are fighting atop Zirakzigil at the beginning of The Two Towers, but also vaguely noticeable in Fellowship.
Maybe they where akin to dragons. Some had wings.. some didn’t? Remember Morgoths battle with Ungoliant? The Balrogs “ flew” from Angband.. and drove her off.. little rusty on my lore.. but remember something like this
When I first read the book as a child, the idea of a demonic force from the first age of middle earth that was dug up out of the ground by the dwarves had me thinking it was a dinosaur, namely a tyrannosaurus rex. I pictured the tail as his whip and his teeth as the sword, but admittedly the comparison broke down after a while. While that Balrog didn't have wings in my mind, since reading it again over the years I do picture them with wings. Sure, they ride dragons, but our heroes ride horses yet still have legs. Even Durin's Bane having intact wings doesn't mean he'd be able to fly up out of the pit, as should be obvious from his size and the cramped conditions.
The book says they have wings. However they aren't functional, and Peter Jackson adapted that perfectly as the Balrog never flew. Also Balrog can change their shape so your critique of their wings not looking like shadows is bad. Furthermore if their wings were made more to your liking it'd be pretty hard to notice then in the movie because it was already dark af so making them more shadowy would be bad.
I personally think the Balrogs do in fact have wings. But, not for the reasons we think. As Maia, they can take whatever forms they wished, deciding to take forms of terrible power. For mentioning other demons in fantasy reminds me of the Pit Lords from WOW. With wings, but are too small for their massive frames for flight. Instead they use them for other matters. The wings seem to be more cosmetic in nature, but I think that they can still be used, namely as last resort shields, which would explain the holes and the lack of flight. They might also use it for cover from sunlight and to fan their own inner flames. So while I think that they do have wings, they are utilized in unique ways.
In Tolkien, evil creatures usually end up locked into the physical form they frequently assume. I think the Balrogs no longer had the ability to shapeshift.
A thing about depictions of the Balrog that I've never been happy about is the size of the thing. It is described as being large, but imagination tends to take some people away to have a creature that is 20-30 feet tall. I doubt such a large being would be able to fit through many of the dwarven-carved tunnels. I know it can't be proved that the tunnels were low, but how likely is it they would be so high? There's also the matter of fighting. Such a tall Balrog would easily have the reach over Gandalf, and no matter how good Gandalf's magic, if the Balrog was that big he could easily have overwhelmed the much smaller Gandalf. If I had to pick a number for a large Balrog, I'd guess at about 7-8 feet; large but not too large to fight or to pass through the tunnels.
I thought the movie did a good job of portraying the Balrog. They managed to find a middle ground that was close to how I always imagined the Balrog's wings. In the movie, the wing "arms" looked somewhat physical, but at the same time, the wing "membranes" appeared to be made of smoke or shadow. That's pretty much how I understood Tolkien to be describing the Balrog.
I think that they do have some sort of wings, but they are no able to fly. melkor had tried to create a form of aerial combat, but without success. I believe that these wing shapes were his attempt to create this aerial combat.
I read that Aragorn had travelled through Moria before the events of the Fellowship of the Ring. Do you think he might have seen the Balrog when he travelled through Moria? If so why didn't Gandalf about it.
I think being as the inspiration for them is fallen angels the shadow wings probably were functional wings on at least durins bane. No one ever said they all are alike.
An ostrich has wings....can it fly? Let the balrog have wings. The real-world wing to body ratio to allow it to fly would make it totally unable to maneuver or spread them in Moria except at the bridge itself. So, it a silly point, and Tolkien should have answered it letter to a fan long ago, since it's been a controversy before he passed in '73. ...And give a better description of what a Balrog looks like., or how many there actually are, or how big each was. (But being Maiar, could they still alter size and shape, like Sauron?) ....That's the problem with unfinished background notes....
Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift and he was known for how good at it he was. In Tolkien, evil creatures usually end up locked into a physical form at some point and can no longer shapeshift. I think that happened to the Balrogs long before.
Exactly. Were they "trapped" in Balrog form forever? Or slightly trapped? Melkor & Sauron both lose their fair forms after a great evil act, and one would assume the Balrogs lost their forms earlier because they fell so fast to Melkor's evil as Arda was formed. "Half-formed Maiar notes" as it were during The Music.@@istari0
If Balrogs had actual functioning wings, they fail pretty bad at using them, since they are almost always cast down to their deaths. I am of the opinion that they did not have wings, at least not usable ones, even though I really like the Peter Jackson depiction.
I hope everyone understand that the Balrog was never literally sleeping under the Misty Mountains for ages, until the Dwarves made too much noise and woke him up 😬
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I have always thought that Durin's Bane was aware of Sauron but refused to serve him since he was not Melkor and Sauron didn't try too hard to recruit it since he could tell that it would not serve him.
I kinda like that troupe where there is an evil that is even bigger than the main evil, but the main evil doesn't even want to bother the bigger threat because of fear.
It's the same situation with Shelob. Officially, she isn't in league with Sauron but she is strategically placed to defend the hidden path to Mordor so she serves Sauron's interest as well. Durin's Bane worked the same way as Smaug did- a distinct evil that while not serving Sauron did acts that benefited him. Smaug occupied Erebor for decades and (most importantly) shattered the Kingdom of Dale to prevent another Mannish realm from opposing him. Durin's Bane and the goblins of Moria prevented the Dwarves from re-occupying their ancient capital, leaving the North more vulnerable.
Yeah that's right. Durin's bane is Melkor's servant and he wouldn't serve anyone else. It seems that the balrogs' very purpose is to serve Melkor and after his defeat, the balrog just sleeps under a mountain, having nothing else to do. Even after he wakes up, he just hangs out and kills anyone who dares to come there
Sauron, especially without his Ring, wants zero part of a fight with a Balrog. I think it was very much a, you leave me alone, I leave you alone, kinda relationship lol
Yes. I would also add that the Balrog did not serve Sauron even back in the Second Age, when Sauron had physical form and was in possession of the One Ring. Not even that made Sauron powerful enough to force the Balrog to do his will.
At the end of the day, the Balrog is a Maiar, like Sauron himself. And although Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, he wasn’t powerful enough to bend beings of his own kind to his will - just as Melkor was never powerful enough to bend any of the other Valar to his will.
The Balrog is probably my most favourite monster of any movie, as it just looks so badass.
"What is this new devilry?"
Yet another subject to get the fan base riled up 😏
I personally really like the depiction in the film, it's almost as iconic as the fellowship and Sauron himself. As for the wings issue, look the book Balrog didn't have wings the movie version did, there debate over lol we can have and enjoy both for both give a different take on the character and overall story
I rather think the shadowy wings help remind us that these were once beautiful Mair that fell by following Morgoth.
The balrog, Durin's Bane is that one LOTR villain can definitely be considered so deadly for our heroes to face regardless of which version you prefer. Whether if it be the book version or the movie version of Durin's Bane.
Wings or no wings, Balrogs really were one of the scariests “monsters” ever imagined! At least in my experience, I could really feel the terror the company was feeling during their encounter
Wings or no wings aside, I think the wings in the movie were meant for the Balrog to look more imposing and as we saw, the wings didn’t work because they were full of holes.
Weird they didn’t work?
I am not sure what is suggesting that they didn't work!
If you mean the way the Balrog fell into the abbys, then I'd say it makes sense! Seriously try flying an airplane under the conditions the Balrog found himself in!
There is no way to gain lift in there.
@@GetsugaTensho85 they are filled with holes and I know that sounds like an oxymoron but you get it lol
A few things to consider.
Maiar are clearly not uniform in appearance. You have old men (Istari), beautiful and fair beings (Annatar), terrible monsters (Balrogs), and literal birds (Eagles).
Granted, there may be some quote I don't know of to prove me wrong, but I can't see why we should assume that all of Morgoth's Balrogs should look the same. Maybe some had wings, and some didn't. Maybe the wings were literal, but completely useless. Who knows.
As for the quotes from the book, it can be interpreted both ways.
But consider the following made-up quote:
"As he rose with the setting sun shining its last light behind him, a halo could be seen around his head, like a gleaming crown of heavenly light.
[...] but the crown he so briefly wore was now a testament in memory alone, since it could not endure the cold embrace of darkness."
It describes the crown in the same manner as the wings of the Balrog, but there's no doubt that there wasn't ever a literal crown.
My conclusion:
There is nothing to suggest that Balrogs didn't have wings. Even though the description in the books is rather vague, and seems more figurative than literal, it proves nothing either way.
But the movie Balrog was in my opinion so incredibly awesome that I will forever perceive it as the canonical appearance, no matter what.
Maiar are spiritual beings, and their physical raiment is entirely up to them (although might be affected by their choices). The Istari decided to appear that way, although Gandalf sometimes appeared as an elf, or even walked unseen.
Nothing in the books to say they didn't have wings is precisely saying they did not have wings. Theres also nothing saying Gandalf didn't walk with a limp or have a comically huge nose.. Nobody on earth considered them having wings until the movies.
eagles aren't maiar?
@@thevalarauka101nope they aren't
@@thomasb.3040 My bad. Tolkien considered them Maiar at one point, but went back on it - I messed up the order.
But the point still remains - Maiar have many different shapes and forms.
Wings are not necessarily for flying (see ostriches), but also to scare enemies etc. So I have no problem with Balrogs having wings
Vestigial wings.
A balrog is a creation, not an evolution. Its form is in large part intended to terrify. Essentially, a costume. If wings have a satisfying intimidation factor, then that would be enough reason to have wings regardless of function, like a cobra has a hood and little lizards have frills and etc.
Exactly. Especially if they were two great swaths of shadow, there's no need for them to be functional flying wings.
I always thought they'd look like the human torch from the fantastic 4. The movies got them way wrong.
One of the best scenes in Fellowship was when Gandalf names the Balrog, the camera pans to Legolas, and you can see the naked FEAR on his face. He is a descendant of Doriath. He knows the tales. He is not some Avari Silvan Elf. Thranduil was born in Doriath, so he KNEW.
You're forgetting one of the descriptions. It's in the chapter "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" as they are approaching the bridge:
"The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: *_it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater_* ; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
I always loved that description. Anyone who has been close to certain large powerful intelligent animals like a tiger, lion or elephant without bars or windows around knows they have a massive presence.
@@bbag1550 What's weird is that I've read the books 7 times now, and somehow I never noticed the "of man-shape" part till the 7th time!
Great point on Gondolin!
Also, Since falling with Ecthelion and Glorfindel, the balrogs did not benefit from these apparent "wings" 🦅😅
Next video should be "How RoP changed everything" 😅
One does not simply discuss TROP…there are writers and even darker things within the Amazon Realm…
Or how RoP ruined everything...
There is not enough time in a man’s life time to properly discuss the changes rop made
He's already covered that in joint critique videos with other channels.
@@whiteknightcat I know. I was joking.
Wings? No wings? In any case, wings just look SO flipping cool.
It's interesting to me that the balrog caused Legolas to cry out and drop his bow but he had no fear in the Paths of the Dead.
And BTW, I f finally got a notification from TH-cam for this video. First one in months.
remember, his father and grandfather would have been there in the First Age. he'd probably heard enough about Balrogs to be very (and rightfully) afraid of them
Let’s be honest the wings were there for style points and I’m not complaining
Personally I like the wings even though I had been reading the books for 23 years before the films came out. It's a case of live and let live or each to their own. I see no point in fighting over it in perpetuity. ❤❤❤😊😊😊
In the movie, it looks to have the "skeleton" of wings but no membrane like a dragon. Kinda a like a demonic peacock; "wings" are for show. I love the movie version as that's the one I grew up with, I didn't get into the books until more recently.
One of the highlights of Jackson’s films is the excellence of the Balrog.
Movie Balrog is really good. Scary, demonic. Even in the book, I don’t visualize the Balrog with a humanoid form.
So Rankin Bass semi-animated non-scary chimeric Balrog didn't cut it?
The book mentions the Balrog uttering curses and counter-spells like a dark wizard. I lean to the Balrog being more humanoid and less beast-like
@@ghostdreamer7272 well just look at smaug. He's a dragon that has higher intelligence than most humans in the mythos.
@@darksoulsss2618 Yes but many depictions of the Balrog just treat them like mindless brutish beasts
@@ghostdreamer7272 I wish they'd give the balrog some dialog yes instead of him just roaring. I agree there. But When I think the word balrog I don't think of a humanoid figure. I honestly don't get where people are getting that idea from. The maiar where not uniform in appearance. like didn't sauron have the ability to change his physical appearance to a bat a wolf and many other forms if I remember right. I personally think what jackson did with the balrog was the right call for the most part. I do wish the balrog would of said something tho in black speech against Gandalf.
Not everything that have wings can fly
Not all that is dead is forever gone
The fire that burned hot was now quenched
The wingless again shall be flown 👀
lol
When the Balrog hit the bottom and the lake, he transformed into a mud monster.
The description if Durin's Bane in the book seems to me pretty much like it is in the movie with the big wings, but the whole body of the thung being a shadow.
Like if you looked at it you'd just see a black void in the shape of a balrog, with fire all around it.
The Balrog in the movie LOTR had just enjoyed a Red Bull before the Fellowship arrived. So it gave him wings!
2nd worst joke in these comments
@@johnconnor7131 So I still have a goal in life: To be the first worst! 😄
One big reason this is a fun discussion is that, like most evil things, the Balrog doesn't fully manifest in the visible spectrum. Durin's Bane is defined by its outline, like a black hole. The middle is uncertain darkness, save the eyes. Powerful, pure-evil things are rarely visible at all (ex. Sauron, Nazgûl, etc.).
This 👏
Man, I followed Facebook Group and they debated: "Wings or Not?" for a while. Even thought it would be cool, Tolkien did say..."Like Wings" so its a Metaphoric Wings!!!
Also the Balrog looks great 20 Years Later...Why don't other things look good now?!!!
Thanks Mellon for your Video: How the Films changed the Balrog, Until more Unknown Lands Part 2...Marion Baggins Out!!!
Right? Tolkien was, shall we say, very well-acquainted with the English language and its uses, and you have to be very disingenuous or ignorant to insist that they were literal wings.
I think the balrog wanted to appear as though he had wings as an intimidation factor, and so made the shadow do that. The other thing is he's basically made out of shadow and flame so if he gave himself wings out of shadow he had wings, even though there function is more like that of a cape.
Before they were too long in their "terrible" forms, the Balrogs went swiftly to rescue their master Melkor from a greedy Ungoliant. They are described as moving like "tempests of fire," so that clears everything up cleanly /s. When I read this, I pictured them reverting into a primal fire spirit form like a much smaller version of Ulmo's wave form. PJ's Balrog is more D&D Balor than Tolkien's Balrog, but it looks cool and it a movie, that's what counts. It's difficult to portray spiritual dread on the silver screen to invoke the same terror that a winged fire demon can with just the visuals.
I imagine Sauron knows of the Balrog because he sent orcs to Moria. Orcs are not subtle so I would guess their were introductions or a few orc buffets before perhaps sent some orcs were brave enough to parley? I doubt that went well but who knows. They probably got the Maia version of, "Get Off My Lawn!"
Lol a 4 ft tall poor little grunt wringing his hands and trying to parley with an actual demon older than the world itself
The balrog is, I still believe, the greatest CGI creation of all time! It still to this day amazes me how terrifying it looks and how fearsome is it.
I do however prefer the mystery surrounding Moria and Durin's Bane in the books. A hidden threat is always more scary than a revealed one.
1:00 to 1:07 Synopsis award goes to you, Yoystan! The Balrog called Durin's Bane was awakened when the Dwarves 'delved too deeply for mithril.'
1:35 to 1:52
2:32 Concerning Balrogs, and WINGS
Fun fact did you know that the balrog in the movies wasn't cgi? They actually hired a balrog
🤣
😂
Um, actually. They didn't even hired it. The Balrog just showed up one day threatening the set. Luckily, Sir Ian McKellen was so in-character that he fought it off
There was the Weta creation but it was CGI for the most part.
Yup that's Jim Balrog
I heard there is one Balrog (rather a fire spirit ) that carries the Sun.
Not a balrog...but a maiar who was a fire spirit who was not corrupted by Melkor as the balrogs were.
Balrogs are creatures of both shadow and fire. I think what you're talking about it just a creature of fire, not shadow.
They all started out as creatures of fire. But once they were corrupted and became balrogs, then they were creatures of fire and shadow. It says in the Silmarillion that the maiar who became the sun was a spirit of fire who Melkor tried to corrupt also but she never heeded him.
The Balrog in the movie reminds me a LOT of the demon in the Night on Bald Mountain sequence in Disney's original Fantasia...
I mean it still stands up well in todays CGI playbook but things I imagined in books never really live up to my expectation in films but Im good with that 😅
As a pure fan, I found the belrog was one of the best movie adaptations requiring large CGI to exist. The way fire grew and receded across his body was so lifelike that your belief in this character deepened with each breathe. His texture and movement were amazingly lifelike. As we know that Gothmog spoke, I only wish that they gave Durin’s Bane a line or two as I would love to hear how this brilliant Weta team depicted his voice.
In the book it casts spells, but not seen directly, Gandalf tells Aragorn I think, that something almost broke him. This is right before the fight on the bridge, so we can assume it spoke to Gandalf though not shown.
There are a number of times that magical creatures cast spells without speaking an encantation. When Dustin’s cast a spell to counter Gandalf’s on the door separating the group from the balrog, this would have been a great time to add his speech. I do recognize I am asking for the sun when already given the earth and moon within this scene.
I think it quite possible Balrog's had wings but could not actually fly with them. But under certain circumstances, they might help it go faster on the ground; this would help explain how they were able to get from Angband to aid Morgoth when Ungoliant attacked him.
I'm confident Sauron knew a Balrog was in Moria. However, Durin's Bane, even after seizing Moria, showed no real interest in the outside world so I think it is less likely the Balrog knew about Sauron although it is possible some of Sauron's Orcs told him.
A nice concise comparison of the two depictions of the Balrog. A nice video. This is one of the channels I come to for a break from things.
I like to think there would be diversity between Balrogs, as like with Dragons, Morgoth created them to suit particular needs, and got better at their creation as he went along. Perhaps, again like Dragons, the first Balrogs didn't have wings, but later ones did. Overall though, I like Peter Jackson's bestial terror, if the Balrog had been a bloke in a suit no one would have taken it seriously.
Whether or not all Balrogs have wings is another question entirely. But I think the second quote makes it clear that Durin’s Bane at least has Wings. And I don’t see this as an issue, even when it comes to “why didn’t he fly after he fell into the pit”, as there are many examples of winged animals on earth that cannot fly. Penguins, Ostrich, etc. as well as things like Flying Squirrels or Lizards (though they aren’t true wings). So I’m firmly in the Winged camp. 😁
Sure the Balrog in the film wasn’t what I imagined…but despite that, it was still hot! 😂
It was so cool that it was hot.
It still looks awesome.
Would you do a second video to this including the details given in the Silmarillion’s details regarding Balrogs and their “wings”? Suck as when Melkor screamed for the Balrogs when facing Ungoliant after the destruction of the two trees? I believe there is another instance of when Tolkien uses the description of wings or flight.
The biggest question on Imladris (the best Tolkien board) back in the day. Sooooo many threads.
Gandal's falling was breaking the heart but returning was great happines and suprise. Thanks nice talking
I like the winged balrog. It makes it seem kinda more demonic to me. They dont have to be functional wings.
movie balrog was so awesome, no issues with it here
my favorite scene
I honestly don't understand some people resistance to the idea that the Balrog had wings. As far as I'm concerned the one that Gandalf fought did. It's right there in the description.
"...It's wings spread from wall to wall..." Now whether those are actual physical wings or manifestations of flame and shadow makes no real difference to me. The wings are there. They are described so Gandalf and the others can obviously see them.
I would have been very disappointed if the movie version had not had wings.
The film's depiction of the Balrog strikes a pretty good middle ground on the matter of the wings debate. It has the wings, but they are nonfuctional aside from making it appear more threatening, not unlike the passage from the book here its wings were spread.
I willingly conceed that canon Balrogs had no wings, but they definitely look way better with them.they can be purely decorative, they don't need to function, but they certainly look better for them.
Okay… but what if the Balrog took the Ring??!!??
Personally I agree they should have wings (but not for the reason you may think. So basically it was a stylistic choice from Jackson and I think it’s a fantastic idea for one particular reason, the balrogs origins. In the future my plan is to make my own lord of the rings project, (Infact it’s a dream of mine to make an adaptation of the first years of middle earth and of Arda, and that includes the Silmarillion up till the fall of numenór in the second age and beyond, but until then I’d like to make a project about the Silmarillion) that aside when I make these projects (which are very balrog heady, such as the balrogs saving melkor from Ungoliant and the balrogs attack during the fall of gondolin and the war of wrath) I will be using the idea of balrogs having wings because if you think about it the balrogs are fallen fire Miar which would class them as almost fallen angels in my mind as least so them having winds is cool because they haven’t got wings, they have been burned off and distorted but the memory of them still remains, the image of them, coverted in shadow and flame…
I would think balrog and Sauron would be aware of each other; but evil does not help each other. Melkor had inferiors as his underlings. I think it served Sauron's purpose to have an unknowing 'ally' stuck in a gaol acting as a bulwark against movement from elves in the west. As Sauron used shelob, it most likely tickled him to have such a powerful player stuck, and thus acting as a pawn he would work around.
It’s worth remembering the Balrog from the cartoon, unfinished, LOTR…
The KISS boots Balrog?
@@whiteknightcat Yes! Though I’d never heard it described that way. 😂
I imagine Sauron more than likely preferred the Balrog to remain ignorant of the goings on until he had obtained the one ring , after which we will never know as he never obtained it.
But I would Imagine Sauron would be deathly afraid of an equal (which remember the balrog was essentially) of a dark temperament learning of the rings existence and perhaps obtaining it himself.
That Balrog just wanted to be left alone, then a bunch of dwarves broke into its house, followed by a goblin infestation. Then, more home intruders came and murdered him. Life just isn't fair.
If the estimate of Sauron’s forces being more than sufficient to defeat the forces arrayed against them are accurate, then it makes sense Sauron would not recruit the balrog. With the balrog in Khazad Dum there’s one less place for the forces of good to build power. So leaving him there seems to back the idea that Sauron had overwhelming forces so long as his ring was intact.
However, if the upcoming battle seemed to be in doubt I would think Sauron would have done his best to sell the balrog on finally fulfilling Morgoth’s goal.
I wonder if the movie was a reference to the animated film as much of the fellowship was nods to it. In the animated film it had wings and flew around a bit.
Oh, and what kind of audio book would you recommend?
To quote Kimba the White Lion:
“And besides: Why do you have wings?”
“That’s a stupid question. Why does anyone have wings?”
I like how Gandalf slew the Balrog in the film version as at least I think it was a homage to Gandalf's fight with the Nazgul on Weathertop as said with "Lightning and Fire" and so seeing Gandalf, possibly commanding the Lightning, which is often resembled as the power of the Heavens to strike down the Balrog, a creature of the Underworld/Hell was pretty awesome. I don't think the Barog would ever submit to Sauron, since Sauron was not Melkor and that they would likely vie for dominance over each other. Even if the Orcs originally were sent by Sauron, they held worship and reverence to the Balrog as the true ruler of Moria. It would be very interesting to see a conflict between Saruman, Sauron and the Balrog.
Balrog would win easily if Sauron has not the ring. Plus if Balrog would get the ring... Good bye Middle Earth.
I've personally always preferred that the Balrog had wings, and have little struggle accepting that, even with them, it could not just fly back up. Maybe aerodynamics aren't huge on Tolkien's work of fanciful fiction, but in such a confined space, I imagine it could maybe, at best, just slow its fall, and then that might even help the spelunking wizard catch up to it.
More than that, though, I imagine back to the Balrogs that had to go and save Morgoth. He cried for help, and his lieutenants came for him, but how far away from Angband were they? Did these Balrogs lope across the uneven, fractured earth that surrounded his citadel? Did Ungoliant sit there and ponder how to devour the Dark Lord, while they covered the distance? She was truly massive, at that point, and I don't believe they were so likely to overpower her from below. In my head, they flew at best speed, like comets of flame, maybe even distracting the eater of light, and fell upon her from above, where she couldn't as easily counterattack, or ensnare, them. That's me, of course, and certainly purely personal preference. Perhaps they also came in varieties, with some that did, and others nor, as they willed it when they took on their forms in Middle Earth.
Awesome creature
the book: slightly taller than a man, a fallen angel spirit (Maiar) like Gandalf, wielding a whip of fire
The movie: eldrich monstrosity that towers in the mountain halls and stood humongous against the mere mortal size of Ian Mckellen's frame, wielding a sword and whip of flame
in regards to the wings...I think it doesn't really need to mean anything. Given how it's depicted in the movie, I think the wings are like...how do I explain this...like a frame. Like it has the bones and pieces of the wings to form the shape, but there's no skin canvas for them to fly. Since in the film the Balrog never flew, so I saw them as a chicken...in that they had wings but were flightless, and if their wings were like 'skeletons' with 'no skin' between the fingers of the wingspan
It made sense in the book that Gimli knew it and Gandalf did not; the Dwarrow do not share their history or their secrets, not even their enemies, lightly. As to wings, they didn't have wings in that sense, yeah.
I don't think it is very likely that any of the Dwarves in Khazad-dûm knew that it was a Balrog attacked them. The last Dwarves that would have ever seen one would have died off well over a 1000 years earlier. So, while Gimli knew it had to be Durin's Bane, I doubt he knew it was a Balrog.
The second quote about wings has to be taken in context of the first really. Though wings..if you think about it. Sauron and Melkor and the Balrogs all lose their ability to disrobe in effect and leave their physical shell, and for say Melkor it is in direct consequence of events. Wings are the province of the air..which is Manwe's domain. They may have been wings in the actual sense before they fell and now are "shadow wings" after their corruption..it also bugged me how the Balrogs moved so fast from Angband at Melkors Ungoliant shout.
I'm gonna be honest with you, when a demon of shadow and flame has "shadows like wings" those are wings. Or did the Balrog not have a sword either, just fire in the shape of a sword?
I’ve always thought the wings were smoke fumes from the burning body of the balrog , even in the movie they’re not clear physically parts, they manifest with fire when it jumped, same as the fire sword
I would to see a theory on what would happen if Durin's Bane had gotten the one ring as I don't think as some might think that the balrog was a mindless beast while he would not be probably a where of what has happen outside Moria sense he has not left I'm sure he would sense Sauron presents on and in the ring and would think he would try to contact him though I know if the would ally or fight each other though I'm sure their might be some betrayal at the end
It is funny.
Gandalf 's stave did shatter in the movie. Just not completely.
The section from his hand up was intact, but the rest shattered to splinters.
I watched that scene so many times as a kid as Gandalf was always my favorite character.
But looking back at it, that made the most scene, otherwise he would have had a harder time turning around on that very narrow bridge with a piece of wood as long as he was tall.
One of the few changes I think PJ got right.
I settled on 'Wings of Shadow' long ago. When they rode dragons they were a more basic troop creature I think: which later Tolkien changed to Orcs!
I want a back-story musical about the friendship between Durin's Bane and Gandalf before they left for Middle Earth....like Wicked...
Balor was a demon defeated by Fionn mac Cumhaill also spelt McCool for English spelling I always wondered did he get balorogs from this story as he definitely used Irish myth Huan is very Irish sounding he also exactly like an Irish wolfhound he also named gollum after a cave in Ireland called Pog Na Gollum
Chickens have wings but they can barely fly.
I Will point out that Gimli thought the fell beast was Durin’s Bane. I think that’s some solid evidence that the balrog had wings because it was flying and I don’t know why he would think that if he didn’t. It’s up to the interpretation of the reader though
The Balrog's wings are made of smoke in the movie... It's got the skeletal structure of wings but the "skin" that would stretch between the fingers of the wings is made of smoke. So, the wings wouldn't be functional for flying... no plot hole. You can see this crystal clear when Gandalf and the Balrog are fighting atop Zirakzigil at the beginning of The Two Towers, but also vaguely noticeable in Fellowship.
Maybe they where akin to dragons. Some had wings.. some didn’t? Remember Morgoths battle with Ungoliant? The Balrogs “ flew” from Angband.. and drove her off.. little rusty on my lore.. but remember something like this
Saruman in the movie only refers to it as shadow and flame Gandalf doesn’t know it’s a balrog till he’s in Moria is how I always understood it
I thought it should have had wings. Maybe they were more for gliding, or aiding in landing, as opposed to actually flying.
When I first read the book as a child, the idea of a demonic force from the first age of middle earth that was dug up out of the ground by the dwarves had me thinking it was a dinosaur, namely a tyrannosaurus rex. I pictured the tail as his whip and his teeth as the sword, but admittedly the comparison broke down after a while.
While that Balrog didn't have wings in my mind, since reading it again over the years I do picture them with wings. Sure, they ride dragons, but our heroes ride horses yet still have legs. Even Durin's Bane having intact wings doesn't mean he'd be able to fly up out of the pit, as should be obvious from his size and the cramped conditions.
The book says they have wings. However they aren't functional, and Peter Jackson adapted that perfectly as the Balrog never flew. Also Balrog can change their shape so your critique of their wings not looking like shadows is bad. Furthermore if their wings were made more to your liking it'd be pretty hard to notice then in the movie because it was already dark af so making them more shadowy would be bad.
Either way, the Balrog HORRIFIED me when I was a child back in 2001, and more than Shelob did 2 years later.
I personally think the Balrogs do in fact have wings. But, not for the reasons we think. As Maia, they can take whatever forms they wished, deciding to take forms of terrible power. For mentioning other demons in fantasy reminds me of the Pit Lords from WOW. With wings, but are too small for their massive frames for flight. Instead they use them for other matters.
The wings seem to be more cosmetic in nature, but I think that they can still be used, namely as last resort shields, which would explain the holes and the lack of flight. They might also use it for cover from sunlight and to fan their own inner flames. So while I think that they do have wings, they are utilized in unique ways.
In Tolkien, evil creatures usually end up locked into the physical form they frequently assume. I think the Balrogs no longer had the ability to shapeshift.
I must say, I love the Balrog in the LotR.
Durin's Bane had wings. Period.
A thing about depictions of the Balrog that I've never been happy about is the size of the thing. It is described as being large, but imagination tends to take some people away to have a creature that is 20-30 feet tall. I doubt such a large being would be able to fit through many of the dwarven-carved tunnels. I know it can't be proved that the tunnels were low, but how likely is it they would be so high? There's also the matter of fighting. Such a tall Balrog would easily have the reach over Gandalf, and no matter how good Gandalf's magic, if the Balrog was that big he could easily have overwhelmed the much smaller Gandalf. If I had to pick a number for a large Balrog, I'd guess at about 7-8 feet; large but not too large to fight or to pass through the tunnels.
Always figured they were about the size of Sauron in the movie prologue.
I thought the movie did a good job of portraying the Balrog. They managed to find a middle ground that was close to how I always imagined the Balrog's wings. In the movie, the wing "arms" looked somewhat physical, but at the same time, the wing "membranes" appeared to be made of smoke or shadow. That's pretty much how I understood Tolkien to be describing the Balrog.
I think that they do have some sort of wings, but they are no able to fly.
melkor had tried to create a form of aerial combat, but without success.
I believe that these wing shapes were his attempt to create this aerial combat.
I read that Aragorn had travelled through Moria before the events of the Fellowship of the Ring. Do you think he might have seen the Balrog when he travelled through Moria? If so why didn't Gandalf about it.
I think you answered your own question. He didn't see the Balrog.
Thanks
Not all animals that have wings can fly so it might have wings but can not use them to fly
I love the the Jackson Balrogs but it is based on a book we can all imagine how a Balrog looks like right ? So we all may have different opinions :)))
I think being as the inspiration for them is fallen angels the shadow wings probably were functional wings on at least durins bane. No one ever said they all are alike.
Two words: vestigial wings.
Solved. Add 🔥! 🗡! Ready to roll!! Whip lash!
How much of Gandalf's full power was he able to bring to bear on the Balrog? Was he able to tap more into his Maiar abilities given the threat?
they both went full out on the mountaintop
Could the reason he didn't recruit the balrog be that the Balrog had the strength to challenge Sauron?
An ostrich has wings....can it fly? Let the balrog have wings. The real-world wing to body ratio to allow it to fly would make it totally unable to maneuver or spread them in Moria except at the bridge itself. So, it a silly point, and Tolkien should have answered it letter to a fan long ago, since it's been a controversy before he passed in '73.
...And give a better description of what a Balrog looks like., or how many there actually are, or how big each was. (But being Maiar, could they still alter size and shape, like Sauron?) ....That's the problem with unfinished background notes....
Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift and he was known for how good at it he was. In Tolkien, evil creatures usually end up locked into a physical form at some point and can no longer shapeshift. I think that happened to the Balrogs long before.
Exactly. Were they "trapped" in Balrog form forever? Or slightly trapped? Melkor & Sauron both lose their fair forms after a great evil act, and one would assume the Balrogs lost their forms earlier because they fell so fast to Melkor's evil as Arda was formed. "Half-formed Maiar notes" as it were during The Music.@@istari0
If Balrogs had actual functioning wings, they fail pretty bad at using them, since they are almost always cast down to their deaths.
I am of the opinion that they did not have wings, at least not usable ones, even though I really like the Peter Jackson depiction.
Didn't balrogs fly to save Melkor from Ungoliant?
I hope everyone understand that the Balrog was never literally sleeping under the Misty Mountains for ages, until the Dwarves made too much noise and woke him up 😬
I like Bakshi's depiction of the Balrog.
I was just going to post that that is the worst Balrog. 8 foot tall guy in a lion suit.
Movie Balrog > actual balrog