Why Balrogs Do NOT Have Wings | Tolkien 101
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- Do Balrogs have wings? It's a common debate among fans. Today, I'm launching my new series "Tolkien 101" where we answer some of the most common questions - and misconceptions - about Middle-earth. We look at all the passages involving balrogs for clues in order to answer the great wing debate!
Special thanks to our friends who were great resources for this video:
Corey Olsen - The Tolkien Professor: @SignumUniversity
Alan Sisto & Shawn Marchese - The Prancing Pony Podcast: theprancingponypodcast.com
Frodo and Nazgul in Osgiliath - Anakin Jones
Saruman - Eric Faure-Brac
Balrog - Kosken Salmi
The Bridge of Khazad-dum - Philipp A Ulrich
Balrog - Sander Agelink
Spirit of Fire - CK Goksoy
Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria - K Mendou
The Balrog - Matt DeMino
The Bridge of Khazad-dum - Anna Kulisz
Gandalf and the Balrog - Anato Finnstark
Eagles of Manwe - Ted Nasmith
Dark Lore of LOTR - Into the Storm - Sebastian Rodriguez
Balrogs Defending Morgoth from Ungoliant - Jovan Delic
Hurin and the Balrogs - Pete Amachree
Bilbo and the Eagles - Ted Nasmith
The Dwarves Delve Too Deep - Ted Nasmith
The Bridge of Khazad-dum - Gustavo Pelissari
Gandalf Falls with the Balrog - John Howe
Flight to the Ford - M Hugo
The Fellowship in Hollin - The Brothers Hildebrandt
Gildor, Sam, Pippin, Frodo, and Elves - Steamey
Moria - Ralph Bakshi
Balrog - Stephen Najarian
Morgoth and Fingolfin - Joel Kilpatrick
The Winged Dragons - Anato Finnstark
Dragons of the War of Wrath - Anato Finnstark
Gandalf and the Balrog Upon Celebdil - Ted Nasmith
Balrog vs Glorfindel - Rui Goncalves
Ancalagon and Earendil - Ivana Lekseich
Glorfindel and the Balrog - Justin Gerard
The Vanyar Prepare for Battle - Jenny Dolfen
Melkor - Thomas Rouillard
Balrog - Juan Manuel Pelaez Duarte
Gandalf and the Balrog - Evolvana
Fall of Gondolin - CK Goksoy
Echthelion Fighting Gothmog - Vargasni
The Fall of Gondolin - Edvige Faini
Flight of the Doomed - Ted Nasmith
Glorfindel and the Balrog - Alan Lee
Gandalf vs Balrog - Minjun Kim
Balrog - Marco Ferrari
Zirak-zigil - John Howe
Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs - Jovan Delic
Flame of Udun - Manuel Castanon
Shadow of War Balrog - Wardenlight Studio
Gothmog and Ecthelion - Eric Velhagen
To learn more about Balrogs and other creatures from Middle-earth, check out:
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Fall of Gondolin
History of Middle-earth Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring
The Encyclopedia of Arda
Tolkien Gateway
#balrog #tolkien #lordoftherings - บันเทิง
Do you prefer your balrogs winged or wingless? And what other questions or misconceptions would you like me to cover in my new Tolkien 101 series?
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I was playing through shadow of war again and was wondering if there is any precedent in actual canon for elves lingering on as spirits after death. Could it have been possible for an elf like Celebrimbor to become a wraith?
I feel that if Balrogs have wings, they would be failed attempts of wings. Basically they wouldn’t be able to fly with them, almost like a chicken😂
That’s a good question! And I’m sure many have questions based on the Shadow of Mordor games. In short, there is no precedence in Tolkien’s works for elves lingering after death. They go to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor.
Could you explain more the diffrences between wraith and physical world, and the differences between Whraits, Barrows and oath- breakers?
If he really had wings, then You Shall Not Pass wouldn't make sense because Balrog falls. Why wouldn't he fly?
I really like the idea of having wings solely for a fear version of peacocking, but not actual flight.
exactly what came to my mind while watching.
That definitely makes snense in my mind
This is what I always thought as well
I'm fairly set on them not having any physical wings after this reading, but them being creatures of fire and shadow, I see no reason why you wouldn't see them winged in flames and shadow.
That's what I always assumed from the movies. I like to think of it as the balrog was weakend from morgoth being cast out so they lost power and their wings became weak.
It now makes so much sense why Gandalf broke the bridge, he would have known how the two other balrogs came to an end. I love the depth of Tolkiens work.
that's what i always thought, i mean when i first saw the 1st movie of the trilogy, i was like 'wut? how can breaking a bridge be a viable strategy against a winged demon', also the long fight while falling has way more sense if not winged.
Yeah you sure love the "depth" of Tolkien's work, but the Balrogs ... errmm they don't care for it too much, being wingless and all 😂
@dylan bailey Correct, in both the book and the film, Gandalf and the Balrog fall into a freezing-cold underground lake or sea. This extinguishes the Balrog's fire (and probably the sheer force of the fall isn't exactly pleasant), but doesn't kill it. They then continue to battle for days under the Earth until they reach the very summit of the mountain, where Gandalf finally manages to kill the thing with his sword Glamdring - in the film he super-charges his strike with a bolt of lightning channelled into the blade, but I don't recall whether the book comments on such a detail. And then the Balrog fell from the place where they had been fighting, though it was probably already dead or dying at that point so you can't really say the fall killed it.
Chickens 🐓 have wings but they’re no match for eagles 🦅, just saying.
Indeed. Still, even with wings, it couldn't really use them in Moria.
Balrogs do have wings, they just keep forgetting how to use them. When Gandalf says "fly you fools," he's actually talking to the Balrog.
They have wings but theyre aesthetic
What?
I'm sorry the replies are so humorless. I thought it was funny.
Haha...
I always thought they had wings, but they simply atrophied due to being stuck in a mountain for thousands of years. They’d still have them but lost the ability to use them
After rea-reading the passage about the Balrog's appearance, it's obvious it has something that resembles wings in a way, but are probably not wings.
I imagine it kind of like how Sauron appears as the Necromancer in the hobbit movies. A vague but clearly tangible shadow.
@@vergil8833 exactly. it actually doesnt matter if balrogs have wings or not. whether its a shadow fiery wings or real wings, balrog just cant fly like dragons. Maybe they can move swiftly just above the ground with speed.
@@lokemmslokemms4294 they actually can. They yeeted themselves from Angband I think to Morgoth, who was beeing held hostage by Ungoliant. They rescued their Lord. And it is not like he was a prisoner for a long time. So they do have the ability to move fast. If I remember correctly this is even in the official edition of the Silmarillion.
It's clear from the passage that it's the exact opposite. The "wings" were mere shadow.
Maybe they do have wings but they’re useless for flight. They may use them more as shields or combat and of course to look awesome
Maybe the balrogs had "failed" wings? As Morgoth tried and failed stealing the eagles ability to fly? Winged but just as bedazzle, I guess.
They can just kinda jump really high, like up onto the tops of sheds where you can't get at them
Maybe this could be titled “why balrogs do not have functional wings.”
Are you implying that Melkor created the Balrog? Because he didn't
My thoughts exactly many birds are flightless: Ostriches, Moas, Emus, many Penguins, etc. The Balrog wings are the failure Morgoth was able to create wings but not flight but with the winged Dragons he got it right.
That first part in the video about wings has made me think they had wings, but as you said, not wings that work. It would not be able to fly.
The classic "Do balrogs have wings debate" still going strong on the internet after 20+ years
It will never be resolved because the text is ambiguous.
20? Fellowship of the Ring was published in 1954 :)
@@meekrab9027 yes but people weren't posting on the internet about it 😀
@@alanpennie8013 It's pretty damn clear they don't.
@@meekrab9027 seriously? passed right over your head
Can confirm regarding preconceived notions. I had my first exposure to the Balrog when my father read the story to us. I imagined it as a huge man surrounded by an aura of spreading darkness. And I only imagined its weapons to be made fiery, not the entire creature like in the movie. I saw it more as a deep shadow than a fire demon sort of thing.
Although, iirc, they are fire spirits. So I can certainly see them actually being of fire.
I think the fire, plus the darkness is really the burning upon them.
Think about it, they burn with so much hate and malice that the smoke they give off is dark as shadow and twisted appearing as great wings that is so thick it can block out the sun and cast its own shadow into solid shape.
This would indeed give the appearance of having wings, the illusion of it. But that’s all it is an Illusion.
@@ataraxic89 and they are gods that helped create the world. So being permanently on fire also seems possible in that way... Even though it's not practical.
Exactly, a humanoid shadow, not with horns, not with teeth or a monstrous face or anything like that, just a phantom like creature, that's how I imagined it
In my eyes, balrogs are winged yet flightless. In the movies the 'wings' of Durin'sbane are almost skeletal and, unless some fleece appears out of nowhere in true hollywood fashion, not usable for flight. Maybe Melkor intended for them to fly but unsuccesfully (thus trying to see why the eagles could), maybe the wings were always just meant for terror purposes. The arguments brought in by Nerd were fully convincing of the lack of ability to fly, but in my opinion, that doesn't disprove wether or not the balrogs have wings
Exactly, the argument isn't that Balrogs can fly, just that they have wings.
You can also easily say that if Morgoth was so obsessed with giving his creatures flight he could have given the Balrogs wings thinking that's all you need to take to the skies.
@Martin Wagoner oooh good point.
I like to think that if they do have wings, their wings do allow them to glide or fly very slowly for a short time, but that's about it. There are a lot of living real world creatures with wings that are garbage fliers, such as the praying mantis, chicken, and quail. They CAN do it when they need to, but it's a secondary mode of transportation at best. In the movie interpretation, his wings are skeletal as stated, but they also don't look nearly large enough to allow a creature of that size and bulk to achieve powered flight easily, and certainly not when already falling off a bridge down what for it would be a very narrow chasm. Gravity is a dick like that lol. Once the chasm opens up into the lake at the roots of the mountains, if not for Gandalf fighting him, he probably could have spread his wings and angled his decent enough to glide down to a spot he could land or achieve a very slow and unstable flight that he couldn't maintain for long. Beating his wings while on the ground certainly would have given him a boost when running or jumping over obstacles, though.
@@TBT8 I'm now picturing that balrog thinking it can fly right up until the moment the bridge collapses and it just has a Wile E. Coyote moment of useless flapping before it falls.
The whip-catch of Gandalf is pure luck from flailing.
Whether with or without wings, Balrogs are badasses.
Amen to that! :)
Balrogs have entered the battle.
Everyone roll for will save. You need to beat a 19 to prevent a need to change your pants.
God bless Durin’s bane and balrogs on the run ....
Absolutely, considering there are only two tiers of beings in existence more powerful than the Maiar, and one of those is GOD, they're definitely badass.
How many balrogs are there and do they still exist after lord of the rings
I think the wings themselves were shadow. As such they weren’t physical and couldn’t let them fly, but they could wrap it around themselves and use it to blot out light. I think the idea of a demon of fire being able to manipulate darkness in such a way is a really cool idea.
That is the right answer
That is how I always saw them. They were corrupted Maiar cloaked in shadow and flame.
Yes. Sure, the "wings" are shadow, but not just a normal shadow that just so happened to have the shape of wings in that moment. The Balrog does not cast a normal shadow, it is a creature partially literally made of shadow. Otherwise Tolkien wouldn't bother describing the shadow so prominently when describing it.
That's very clever. Sounds like a great middle ground between the strategic consistency of "wingless" balrogs and the aesthetic dopeness of winged balrogs. And would explain both the constant mentioning of wings around balrogs and the deathly falling of Morgoth's most terrifying dope monsters.
And that’s not too different from Peter Jackson’s interpretation. Durin’s bane didn’t fly, but it’s shadowy wings were part of its character.
Like many others, I say, winged but flightless. The wings are to make them look larger and more intimidating, but they give about as much lift as wings made of fire and shadow can. Nada.
Nothing to indicate that they have wings, though. So why would you assume they do?
I'm pretty sure the wings are there just for looks.
Even Tar Goroth, the Balrog at the Shadows of Mordor game, had wings but didn't fly
Even though the games aren’t canon (mostly due to the timeline being all kinds of wonky), that’s exactly how I’d picture a balrog. Having wings, but functionally useless ones, more of a display than anything
I know it’s not canon, but man, Morgoth experimenting and mutilating Eagles is brutal to imagine.
While it's not described exactly what he DID experiment on and mutilate, we do know that he DID experiment on and mutilate things, because it's explicitly stated that he did not have the ability to create life, but he most certainly DID create Dragons, and that had to come from something, and most of the Dragons are very different from one another. The implication with all of his creatures is that he took existing things and corrupted them, turning them into what he wanted. Not sure if eagles were on that list or not, but SOMETHING was and it was definitely brutal.
The early dragons didn't have wings so they didn't come from eagles whatever they were corrupted from
@@samtagg8754 Did Morgoth create them? I thought he just allied with them.
@@julianmehlmann2996 yes Morgoth created the dragons all of them the winged one and the ones without it .
@@DrakenAshen hmm.. do you think Ancalagon The Black could have been created from The Ungoliant? What else could have grown to such size?
Perhaps they have "wings" made of shadow to intimidate their enemies.
Yeah, that's what I'm going with.
@@PaulKMF1 yeah
In Supernatural angels have wings like how Abrahamic scripture explains but differs from the reasons/qualifications scripture speaks of. For instance; A base rank angel in reality has “two wings and a halo”, in supernatural regular angels can have two or more on their back.
Seraphim have 6 and use 4 to cover feet and face and 2 for flight. Castiel becomes a seraph but only shows two wings, so sometimes creatures have wings but not to fly. Like penguins :)
This is exactly my opinion, it would match even better to texts than saying they do not have wings. Not all things fly that have wings anyway.
@@AerYdmyg Haha. Yeah, there is a lot cool videos that try to show what those would look like too. But not sure if can compare that kind things to balrogs, because from my point of view balrogs are really physical beings in middle earth and more stuck with laws of physics etc.
I just assumed Balrogs were like penguins meaning they had wings bit couldn't fly or at least not very well. I always envisioned Balrog wings skeletal & etherally wispy
Exactly. They could have some practical purpose but either wouldn’t be solid or wouldn’t have membranes, so they’d be useless for flying
They're also not large enough to allow a creature of the size depicted in the movie version to fly very fast or very long. He could probably glide with them relatively easily if he had enough open space, and beating them would help him jump obstacles and run faster. But, he is too dummy thicc for his wings as shown to allow him to just hit the brakes middair when falling off what for him is a tiny bridge.
Pengrog is now the cutest demon of Morgoth in my head-cannon
One thing to have in mind, specially with regards to the Silmarillion, is that he changed characters and objects with time. The Silmarillion is a collection of notes, so it makes the most sense that he thought of something first, and at some other point his ideas were different and contradicted one another. I think he retconned the part in The Hobbit that dealt with the One Ring due to his thinking in more detail of the story of LOTR later on. So it could very well be that Balrogs were winged at one point, and then he backtracked. It could also be that some Balrogs were winged, and some weren't. They were all originally spiritual creatures that chose certains shapes on Middle Earth, after all.
Just to address the "falling" part at the end. Things with wings can still fall to their deaths. Depending on a creatures/animals size, mass, and body structure, there are certain requirements to attain flight. If the creature/animal is unable to achieve it in midair during a freefall, it's gonna go splat.
Why not take the middle ground: Balrog have wings made of shadow that are used to intimidate enemies but cannot be used for flight.
There is no middle ground. There are passages that state the contrary too your claim. Give me one passage that clearly says that they actually HAVE wings. (Regardless if they are useful or not)
That's not a middle ground. That's literally the only remotely reasonable reading of the text.
Because the Balrog already spread terror and radiated power long before his confrontation with Gandalf, intimidating the Fellowship without the need of physical means. I don't think wings are an useful itimidation tactic when said the people you want to intimidate aren't intimidates by Lovecraftian terror.
But then, what is shadow made of??
@@matthew6732 smoke? Evil? Eye boogers?
The most hilarious thing is in Ralph Bakshi's animated LOTR, where not only does the balrog have wings, it also clearly demonstrates the ability to fly, about five seconds before falling down the chasm of Khazad Dum.
Damn I love this channel. In the age of toxic, cultish fandoms, it's awesome to watch a video that lays out a clean case for a certain position on the lore, but also invite viewers to form their own conclusions and ends by noting that both positions are really cool in their own right. Awesome video as usual!
Tolkien had Gandalf say "fly you fools" to make it clear that hobbits and humans have wings ...
@@V1489Cygni yeah the "burrow down to fly up" principle. But most races in middleearth considered it cheating and it this mode of smartassery in the face of peril caused a lot of needless bitterness and disdain towards the dwarves which in turn did not improve their already contrarian outlook on life ...
its a little known fact that merely uttering the word 'fly' imparts wings to anyone within hearing distance
@@5piles UNless they're already a fly.
@@whynottalklikeapirat u said fly i am now a fly...thanks a lot
@@5piles Oh ... errh ... no man, you're super fly. Wings look great, they're like-uh ...crispy caleidoscope windows ... and remember: now you can just simply fly into Mordor that whole quest thing should be over in the wink of an evil eye ... not with ten thousand men could you do that, it'd be, you know, folly ...but one superfly kid ... just keep the buzzing to a minimum and be on the look out for any-uh ... extra crazy big spiders ...
I know for a fact that some of the Elves had wings. In fact there is an entire chapter in The Silmarillion about it: "The Flight of the Noldor".
Lol
😂
Made my day. 😂
Lmao
Your channel is a gift. Thank you for your thorough research and delivery - AWESOME
An excellent video from start to finish. Well studied, well thought, and well spoken. You have convinced me, sir.
If Balrogs could fly, they would have found Gondolin, which they did not find until the treachery of one of the elves from Gondolin.
This is a great point for not being able to fly for sure! I guess one could argue that they may not have travelled over Gondolin, but Morgoth after the Dagor Bragollach controlled all of the north, so they could've had almost free reign to travel and search for Gondolin!
There is no reason to think that just because they had wings, they had the ability to fly. Even in the real world, there are animals that do have wings and are unable to fly, and here we are talking about a fantasy setting.
@@Ewiril And in this fantasy setting, the creature we are talking about didt come about in a natural way. It was a choice to become a Balrog, and why get wings if they didt serve a a purpose?
@@PervyAutomaton You do realize that flying isn't the only purpose of wings right? Intimidation? Weight balance? Technically meat shield? ... Also ... Elves! Why have pointy ears if they do not serve a purpose? Or if you wanna stick with the Balrogs, they are supposed to have horns right? Horns are also evolutionary features, that serve them nothing, so why do they have those? ... The rule of cool is sometimes good enough reason, especially when talking about fantasy. + They are not technically an animal species per se, like Lovecraftian creatures, they all could have looked different, and not all had to have wings.
@@Ewiril Also, if Morgoth and Sauron had their shapeshifting restricted like the time Sauron lost his "Annatar" transformation after the destruction of Númenor, the same logic would apply to balrogs.
Morgoth: tries to research flying for his minions
Arda: *insufficient vespene gas*
Meanwhile, in Gondolin: *construct more pylons*
You’ve not enough minerals.
Flash would have had enough vespene gas
Moria: Your Balrogs are under attack!
Only recently joined the channel, love the content, clear concise narration, interesting and educational, great work. Glad to be a nerd (minor) of the Rings. Keep them coming
I always tried to keep away from images or clips of the movie trilogy, because my first reading of Tolkien was my mum's copy of "the Hobbit", which was illustrated before even the animated movies came out, and I was amazed by those beautiful illustrations, which looked NOTHING like the Jackson iterations, the dwarves had long and pointy hoods, the elves were dressed with medieval clothing, all the scenes looked like little floating islands, and don’t get me started on Smaug and Gollum! The point being, this made me incredibly enthralled in the wide spectrrum of interpretations Tolkien’s writings inspired, and I wanted to let my imagination run wild with his stories too.
Also, Tolkien was a master of the use of literary resources. That’s what makes his stories not easy to digest for many. You need to have a flexible, colorful and imaginative mind to appreciate these similes and metaphors.
Now imagine for a non-native speaker =)
It was… well… hopefully i know the books by heart in french ^^"
However, if Tolkien is a master of language and his choice of words was consistently deliberate, then would not his repeated use of ideas of flight and wings in his descriptions of Balrogs suggest that he intended them to have wings, whether flightless or not?
Personally, and I freely concede that I am no authority on the subject, I wonder if Tolkien actually intended for the Balrogs to have a true physical form. Their use of fear and terror strikes me as being similar to the Nazgul, who we know have no corporeal bodies, which perhaps suggests some sort of a power akin to that of a wraith. Tolkien is also so vague in his descriptions; the Balrogs seem to be shadows within shadows, with features that can only be discerned by flames and fiery weapons. Gandalf upon first seeing the Balrog at the door of Balin's tomb only describes it as a dark cloud that blocks all light. Therefore, perhaps these wings of shadow are very much a part of the creature, which itself is nothing more than darkness and flame.
@@abidingdude13 an interesting concept for sure and sadly I feel we shall never get to know the answer
@@abidingdude13 This hypothesis is compatible with the idea of "no winged balrogs". They have a physical body but they emit flames and shadows. Maybe a part of these shadow look like wings. They won't allow them to fly, though :)
Yeah, he was "master" of using them in completely wrong way that paints opposite image of what he tried to say if wingless silly theory is to be considered seriously...
This video was so well articulated and explained, truly a joy to watch! I think that Balrogs are more interesting without wings, especially reading into the (possibly non-canon) story of Melkor stripping wings from the eagles. Perhaps the wings of shadow the Balrgos sprout are all that Melkor could bestow them with: just a shadow of the power of flight. The depth of Tolkien's mythos never ceases to astound. Thanks for the video!
First read LotR in '74 when I was in 7th grade, had read it 4 times through before Christmas '77 when my Mom gifted me a hardcopy of the newly published Silmarillion. I'm 58 years old and have read LotR more than 50 times (lost track). I'm definitely in the WINGLESS Balrog camp. Love your channel, love your videos. Thanks for posting.
Maybe they had wings but could not fly, thus being a metaphor for Morgoth's inability to create.
That was my thought. Except that the first dragons were without wings, while later dragons could fly. This would indicate that while Morgoth cannot truly create, he can twist form into function. Then again, dragons came after the balrogs.
@@billwithers7457 Balrogs can't fly either :)
@@MrRenanHappy Who did then?
@@earlofdoncaster5018 Eru Ilúvatar. Balrogs are Maia who served Melkor - not unlike Sauron.
@@istredify Same thing with dragons, yet they later had wings
Balrogs have wings - wack
Balrogs have no wings - wack
Balrogs have wings but they can’t fly - wack
Balrogs are penguins - that’s *tight*
Yes, especially since penguins are cold-environment critters. These penguins SUFFER for their art.
@@sourisvoleur4854 That's why they're so angry.
@@angrypotato_fz - Morgoth has a lot to answer for.
wow wow wow!
I was sitting here scrolling comments thinking about how Balrogs were penguins and I happen upon your comment. *tips hat*
Can't stop watching this channel!
"Fly, you fools!"
*Frodo flies south over Mordor and casually drops The Ring into Mt. Doom*
They catched a fly and eaten them.
I love the idea of Melko repeatedly plummeting off cliffs in some contrivance made from eagle wings like something from Last of the Summer Wine 😁
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I’m never going to forget that image!
@@simonmorris4226 Maybe Compo is Melko reincarnated.
@@garytwinem5275 Lord of the Wrinkled Stockings of power!🤣
@@simonmorris4226 On clear summer nights, elves even now yet sing the Tale Of Compo and Nora Batty.
"Are you Left Wing or Right Wing?"
"I am a No Winger."
I was already convinced, your video was the emphasis I needed.
great analytic work! As a theologian, I am used to work like this with biblical texts to show how often people missunderstand some images and metaphors. I really enjoy your work!
This reminds of me how Gandalf says, "fly you fools!" And people think he's telling them to take the eagles. Ah no, he's telling them to run away very fast. The language Tolkien used in his writing isn't modern and I think people forget that.
Side note: As a child though, reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings took me a long long time because of the language. It got better when I became older and revisited the stories countless time since then.
I believe there's a line that uses "hither and thither." Always loved the language in those books.
Literally no one, not a single damn person, thinks Gandalf is telling them to take the eagles when he says that.
Fly to mean flee is obvious in the context. Its not about using modern language
@@chadwhitfield6946 Dude, I've had countless people tell me that he's telling them to take the eagles (mostly people who've only seen the movies and never read the books), including a university professor. So please do not tell me that no one has said that.
Edit: not to mention all the memes that portray it too; usually made by people who have no idea about the story or the nature of the eagles.
@@nerd_alert927 well, the only ones who even know what the eagles are would be Aragon and Legolas. Plus they don't try to find or even mention the eagles after they escape. Weird huh?
Ostriches have wings, and they can't fly. I like the visual of massive flaming demons with wings, even if they don't use them fly.
Edit: now that I think on it more, if I were Morgoth and I were actively looking to harness the power of flight for my forces, the first thing I would do is slap some wings on their backs.
That's how I thought of it when I first saw the movies.
Me too. Kinda like opposite of angels
This, just exactly this
Allowing for short hops and gliding would also give them some utility and reason for the balrog to have wings. I never thought they had the ability to completely fly (look at the wing anatomy in pretty much every artwork). Wings =/= true flight
I like this thought as well, that they have some sort of wings as part of their design but that don't actually fly. Maybe they have the ability glide forward and move quickly with them.
I think it's possible that the Balrogs could have had wings, but by the time of the Fall of Gondolin they could have been crippled by various injuries, similar to how Morgoth was left with a permanent limp after his battle with Fingolfin.
Alright you finally wore me down, I'll subscribe lol good work!
Morgoth didn’t have the spare points in his army list to pay for wings.
@Peasant And after painting them the paint dried and stuck so the wings wouldn't move.
5:34 Please do an episode about ‚The complete travels of the Balrog of Moria‘.
😉
Not much to say, he Balrog of Morgoth, he fight, he run away to sleep, he hear Sauron is back, he eat some dwarf, he get kill by Wizard.
It is absolutely correct what is said in the video about simile+metaphore. Tolkien was a philologist who studied medieval literature (and wrote poetry in medieval metre). Medieval prose and poetry emphasises poeticism and Tolkien often employed similar types of literary devices as found in medieval literature. This particular example, is similar to a norse/anglo-saxon "kenning", where you would use figurative language instead of a literal description of something.
This definitely speaks to the complexity of literature and level of reading in the books. I am naturally good with language and literature but definitely found Tolken's works more challenging to follow. Granted I was still young when I read them. I should go back and re read them now.
Tolkien uses simile a lot, and a lot of people read it wrong, hence we have winged Balrogs and Sauron is a giant lighthouse, all from Tolkien using simile and metaphor. In the books the great Eye is Saurons minds eye searching 'psychically' for the Ring and he does actually have a physical body as metioned by Gollum who was tortured by him for info "Yes, He has only four fingers on the Black Hand, but they are enough,” said Gollum, shuddering.
I don’t know, man. Winged Balrogs are pretty... *fly*
We know it take lot of time and hard work to make these videos. So we always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos.
As someone else in the comments wrote, I prefer them with "failed", and even near skeletal wings. As a defence mechanism (like they need it lol) it vastly increases the appearance of their size. Symbolically, I imagine a failed or fallen race.
When Legolas shoots the fell beast on the river Anduin he likens it to a Balrog. Again he's talking about its horror/shadow, but the association of Balrogs and flight is so strong in the literature that I love how the shadow is represented by literal wings in visual media. Maybe not cannon, but works for me.
@@automaticninjaassaultcat3703 no but he and every elf knew of them they were the only thing that truly scared an elf
this is much better than my language arts class
ive learned more from tolkien than i have from there
Wingless. Great vid! Love your style and narrations.
Amazingly serie. Keep it up!!!
You're absolutely correct, they do not have wings in the books. The way most artists draw them make them look *alot* better with wings though.
I still remember how I pictured Durin's bane when I read the books the first time - not as a massive demon, I pictured him smaller, maybe only a bit taller than Gandalf. I pictured him made of more shadow, less flame (in dominance). I pictured him more "man" than demon, more of threatening hooded "person". I like the more dramatic pictures of balrogs and the film's version is amazing, so yeah, I'd agree with you: the purist knows it has no wings, the tolerant fan will appreciate all interpretations :P
As for another video, the explanation to the every annoying so called "plot hole" of "why didnt they just fly to Mordor on eagles?" would be appreciated. Ive written long-ass replies countless times about this, people just repeat the mistake all over the internet though. I typically focus on:
- eagles arent servants to Gandalf
- eagles would be visible for Sauron, therefore vulnerable
- Sauron would understand the intention
- riders would be too heavy for long flight
...
While I now have new knowledge of the dregs of Morgoth, I still like the idea of the demons bearing large wings! It makes them much more terrifying
If he had wings then he wouldn't fall in The Fellowship of The Ring, right?
@@thelordofthememes8702 not necessarily they could be like Ostriches
They have wings but they are too heavy to fly
@@thelordofthememes8702 Wrong. Smaug had wings, it fell to death too. Video was stupid with this point, winged creature falling to death because it was stabbed means nothing and there are dozens of examples of winged creatures in Tolkien canon plummeting to death after being wounded...
The Lord of The Memes that doesn’t even make sense. Plenty of tea life animals that have wings might not be able to spread them in time or catch a good air current in time.
@@KuK137 But dragons breathe fire. I always kind of wondered why and how as you think someone like smaug would be too heavy to fly, but I would think dragons have a lot of natural gas built up in their body. Gas that helps lift them up like a blimp, plus they breathe fire using their body as opposed to magic. Balrogs don't look like they are designed for flight at all.
Narrating f’n priceless well done my’lords well researched as well 🤗
I'm convinced that they don't have wings but damn I wish they did. Those drawings are amazing
100% - they look awesome with wings
You have me convinced. Are there more details on how Melkor turned the Maiar into balrogs and also why Sauron didn’t become a balrog??
Mairon the Admirable was the most powerful Maia serving for the Vala Aulë before Ainulindalë. During the Discord of Melkor, it is said that some of the Ainur joined him. Mairon was one of those. However, when the Ainur took physical form and entered Eä, Mairon still pretended to be good. When his treachery was revealed, he gained the name Sauron the Abhorrent. Since he was the most powerful Maia, he could change shape. The other Maiar that Melkor, now called Morgoth, corrupted took guises of shadow and flame because they had no control over their form (even Olórin doesn't, the Valar decided which form he has to take as Gandalf). But he was still corrupt and therefore upon losing his power to skin change after Akallabêth, he was forced into the form of a regular Balrog. This is why his hands have the power to burn anything. Furthermore, the armour he wore in the Prologue of the Lord of the Rings movies was used to hide his hideous form.
PS: You can see Sauron's true form under the armor in the Hobbit movies where he battles Gandalf.
@@cuitaro Sauron didn't have the form of a Balrog. Tolkien described his "locked" form as "Dark Lord," which was the same guise Morgoth had become locked in. (Not that they were twins, but they probably looked VERY similar.)
Personally I would have said the incident at the bridge would be enough.If the balrog had wings it would have played out something like this.......
Gandalf - "You shall not pass!"
Balrog flies over him and turns "So sorry,what was that?"
Yeah, I was looking to see if someone else had already pointed this out. There was certainly space enough for the balrog to unfold it's wings and fly over the chasm if it had had any.
Wings would be useless in such an enclosed space either way, especially with the balrog’s size
@@pokeyscorpion8224 Do we know the actual size of the Balrog? It seemed to fit inside the chamber where Gandalf sealed the door (and got thrown down the stairs for it) and doesn't this also make it likely that the Balrog would also fit through that door? This would mean that while it may be large (cave troll) it's not huge (ent, eagle or dragon).
Also, I don't remember exactly but when I read the book I got the sense that the bridge was located in a huge cave/hall.
@@WeddingVegetables It would still be too heavy to maneuver in the air in an enclosed space
Man I usually don't subscribe as quick as I did to your channel, very well made videos
love your work, subscribed. Just sing though, the balrog in Fellowship of the Ring looks very like the Monster from the ID in 'Forbidden Planet'.
My thoughts are this: Balrogs have non-functioning wings for one reason and one reason alone, they're fallen angels. Tolkien based a lot of his work on Christianity, these beings are corrupted Maia and are therefore seen as his work's version of a fallen angel, and don't angels "lose" their angel flight when fallen? Its possible that the idea of skeleton or fire or even shadow based wings would be there as vestigial and useless holder overs from their "angel" past. However great deep dive into the work and I concede that although Tolkien used the word wings a lotttttt you have convinced me that at face value they probably shouldn't have any haha.
Gandalf was also a Maia, i.e. an 'angel'. Gandalf with wings?
@@matthew6732 maybe because Gandalf isn't fallen and he's like on active duty so to speak he can hide his wings haha, they're under his cloak haha. Who knows, but good observation. Certainly not clear cut
@@reecepip4857 Well, he's on mission to act humanish and not use much power.
I am certain that he can "fly" (move through the air) when not in his "Im just an old man" body.
I agree that the imagery is mostly about them being fallen angels.
Woooohoooo! Love How this series is looking. Very excited for future ones.
I do have a suggestion for you. Could you do something like this but focused on geography or Arda? Days ago I was researching the different passes of the misty mountains and I found it fascinating.
Honestly one question I find even more interesting and maybe controversial in that context is "do Balrogs have horns?" They are almost always depicted with these goat like horns, but is that mentioned anywhere in their description? As a child I read (or was read by my mother) the book first before watching the movie, and I never imagined the Balrog with horns, but more phantom like, with a less defined, monstrous face and also more shadow than fire or mabye dark fire or something like that.
I like the idea of wings as a simile or metaphor. The shapes of shadow and/or fire suggest wing-shaped, though not actual physical wings. They are part of the miasma of terror and fear the creatures carried with them to quell those foolish enough to face them. So, technically speaking, I'm in the camp for balrogs having non-functional wing-ish suggestions of wings. As previously said, Jackson's balrog was freakin' badass! :D
Is it possible that they aren't just all identical? And maybe some had wings? They were just Maia who turned to following Melkor. They should have all had their own personalities, abilities, and forms.
That’s entirely possible
Typically in fantasy when there is a set number of a type of creature, they are not identical. Dragons, for instance, come in both winged and wingless versions.
I'm not in a country which speaks English so I learned something about language too and not just Middle-Earth.
“However, In my final considerations. Wings are cooler.”
Wasn't convinced initially but the deaths seem definitive. Cool videos love it
Glad i am your patreon. Another good video ^^
What if they drank Red Bull
The stomach acid fire will not avail you, Flame of Udûn.
Lol🤣
Sorry I'm late, I've just discovered this channel and am binging it. I like the winged depiction aesthetically but it could also be considered that balrogs have wings possible through morgoth attempting to create flight among his army but the power is never granted until he gets it right with later iterations of his dragons. Even if flight is not possible, it would still take a toll from enemy morale as if they are not holding back the power or, that they have 2 extra appendages that you would have to worry about when dealing with them.
No... I wasn't convinced (not that I had an opinion prior to this video), but I enjoyed the content. Keep it up!
Ungoliant attacks Melkor
Melkor: HELP ME!
Starship Troopers theme plays in the background
Ungoliant: ???
A moment later, host of balrogs arrive
*Gothmog: 'Cmon you apes, you wanna to live forever?!*
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 I did
Durin's Bane (prior to receiving that title): ... It's AFRAID!
I want to see that movie haha
I personally think their wings are more for aesthetics (because in Fellowship I believe it was just like the bone outline of some, with no feathers or something like that)
In case of the analogy with horses, we can imagine that winged speed refers to them using their wings while travelling, while maybe they also travel on foot.
Solid argument. I'm sold.
Gandalf’s train of thought when falling with Durin’s Bane.
I prefer Balrogs without wings but the Balrog from Peter Jackson is badass.
💯
😄🤣
After, of coarse, watching the Peter Jackson films, it was interesting discovering the story. I am just now getting into the lore of Middle Earth, thanks to your channel. I really like your work and analysis, and you display it well graphically (thank you for that).
I know most all of George Lucas' Star Wars lore, which has now become terrible. This is a nice introduction to lore that I can get into. It is so deep and interesting. I guess I have to read again lol!
I hope you used a kindle/electronic edition to count "flight" - good grammatical analysis. You have me convinced.
I did indeed! Thank goodness for the search function! 😂
For me, I prefer the idea of the Winged Balrogs, however this was a very compelling argument for the non winged version! My reason for liking the winged versions are that perhaps their wings didn't allow for full flight like the winged dragons had the capability of. The size of the Balrogs bodies in comparison to their wings may have prevented full flight, perhaps gliding only. This could explain why they fell from high points during the fight with Gandolf and the elven lord Ecthelion.
Melkor possibly hadn't figured out the science of flight when he gave his Balrogs wings, so the firey wings were only used for pure menacing affect, IMO.
Great subject matter. 👍👍
Your argument is well crafted and compelling! I like my balrogs with wings (non-functional). Good video :)
Tremendous! I stand convinced.
I believe they are wingless but I don’t care as long as the artwork looks sick
Melkor was trapped by Ungoliant, the Balrogs heard his cry and FLEW from Angband to save him. This supersedes all other Balrog refrences. They couldnt make it to Melkor if they couldnt fly. Love the videos by the way!
"This supersedes all other Balrog refrences (sic)."
On whose authority? Yours?
FWIW, Angband is several hundreds of miles from Lammoth, so even flying at the peak speed of a swift (~100 mph), it would have taken the balrogs a few hours to reach the struggling Morgoth. From a few hours on wings to a few more on foot... it really doesn't make a difference, and it's probably another one of the inconsistencies that Tolkien never got to iron out.
@@dlevi67 I always imagined Morgoth intentionally brought Ungoliant to the land where Balrogs slept underneath just in case things went sour. They sleep deep underground but burrowed up to the surface when they heard his cry. Makes more sense to me.
@@TrueGuardify That's not how the Silmarillion describes it; it says clearly they (Balrogs) were under the ruins of Angband ("Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband [...], Balrogs lurked still"), and they had some considerable distance to go. Incidentally, in the Silmarillion Tolkien does not use the verb "to fly": "swiftly they arose and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
I love the visual of winged Balrogs, but after listening to the Andy Serkis audio book recently I took in the descriptions of the Balrog intensively to try and get an idea of Tolkien's visual for them, definitely made me believe they don't have them in the books (as awesome as I think having wings is)
I like to imagine balrogs as just about regular dude size, it makes their power feel more awesome to me. Kind of like the Vasto Lorde from Bleach. But that's just me. You'll never see me complain about an epic winged demon fight, lol.
Fantastic content as always,and an education in English as well!
I like to think of Balrogs as having wings but burned to uselessness from their fire, with big holes and singed cartilage.
I always thought they had wings of fire.
@@chadwhitfield6946 Yeah that is a cool image too!
Well Hell! Now I'm going to have to clip off the wings of my LotR Balrog miniature. Thanks for the share!!
That ending was like a sweet reminder that this is all for fun lol. In a world of pandemics and wars, obsessing over 100-year-old fantasy is a welcome distraction. But we don't need to take ourselves *too* seriously :)
They have wings of shadow, which they use to cloak themselves, intimidate or blind foes. Not for flight.
Balrogs are creatures of Shadow and Flame. Wings of Shadow, on a being whose substance is shadow are wings. Given the nature of Shadow as a incorporeal substance it stands to reason that a Balrog could choose if and when it had wings. A being that is capable of choosing to have wings is certainly said to have wings. Balrogs HAVE wings.
I mentioned this in another section and agree, not sure how much ability they had as Maiar to change their form anymore after their corruption, but I think it's well within reason that they could shroud themselves in shadow and flame how they liked, just not physical wings as presented in the movie.
@@DrakenAshen But theres your problem. This isn't an inherently corporeal being. Shadow and Fire are there form. They manifest seemingly physical form out on immaterial substances. Wings made of shadows are Wings. They had Wings and the film's representation would be accurate to their form.
@@danmurray1996 I disagree. Balrogs must be corporeal. Just *shrouded* in shadow and flame.
Fire and shadow cannot be stabbed (just as a spirit can't be hurt by a sword because it isn't physical). Yet Balrogs do. They also walk like any other creature - implying gravity and mass.
To me, it is clear they are corporeal.
You can manifest great shadows *like* wings... but they aren't going be be functional, nor limbs. In which case - no wings.
@@TheMinecraftHype
1) A Balrog is stated to be a creature of Shadow and Flame, that's what they are. Not shrouded, but made of. Further they are Maiar. They are stated to be spirits capable of changing form. Gandalf for example, only has a constant physical form because he was cloak in the flesh of an elderly man.
2) Spirits can be stabbed by great weapons from the times of old. The Witch King was killed in part by an ancient dagger and in part by Eowyn's modern sword.
I would like you to consider these points and explain how you could still reach your conclusion.
@@danmurray1996 1) At no stage does Tolkien say "made purely of shadow and flame" - it can be a being *of* shadow and flame without being made purely of this. In fact, he makes a point of not being able to see the actual man-part very well. Too much darkness about it. And again, every instance we see indicates physicality. Falling/gravity, being wounded by a physical blade, or helm, turning to a 'slimy' being after being extinguished (note: Tolkien doesn't mention it being a being of slime... but there it is). It's very clearly just *shrouded* in shadow and flame.
2) The Witch-king was always corporeal. That is painfully clear. He wears a cloak and crown, weilds a sword, rides a horse and fellbeast. Other Nazgul pick up Merry. The Nazgul are just invisible Men - like Frodo is whilst wearing the One. His body is still corporeal.
Your point makes sense, but I also think of the cartoon Gargoyles....... I can't recall how many times I saw Goliath and the others fall...... maybe they didn't have flight but were able to glide from place to place and could cover a lot of ground that way.... 🙂
I'd like to know the size of Balrogs. If they can casually span the halls of Moria, that makes them Argentinosaurus-sized yet some instances describe them leaping which would make them the size of tall humans and Gothmog got his chest stabbed by Ecthelion's helmet which would make him Tyrannosaurus sized. So which is it? Are balrogs the size of human basketball players, giant sauropods, or T. rex?
PS Regarding the winged/not winged balrogs, I like a compromise: The balrog can just create big eruptions of hellfire that look like it's grown a pair of big, intimidating wings.
PPS I'd like a Tolkien 101 analysis on the Variags of Khand and just what they are.
PPPS I've recently subbed. Middle-earth I love!