Almost certain it's a heat treat issue, but you can't be heat treated to the same hardness where one is brittle and the other is not. "Overcooked" if done in the austenitizing phase would not significantly change the microstructure. Conversely, insufficient time soaking at the austenitzing temperature would result in loss of toughness and poor hardness, which is indicative of your failure mode of bending. There are a lot of heat treating steps for MagnaCut, so there are a lot of steps where something might go wrong. Could be too long in the cryogenic post-quench where it would get softer. Unless you've actually tested the hardness of both blades, it's just speculation about what went wrong in the heat treat. BTW, I'm a metallurgical engineer and I got my degree from the same school where Dr. Larrin Thomas got his Ph.D. Since most knife manufacturers don't provide details on their heat treat schedules, we can only speculate about what when wrong if a blade fails. I too, am speculating, but I'm speculating based on my knowledge of metallurgy and heat treating.
@@ahill209 Sir, I pinned your comment so that everyone can benefit from your expertise on this subject. I believe Dr. Thomas’ video regarding the discrepancies in MagnaCut HT that permeates the industry hits the same points and am glad to see some positive changes that the industry is making as we speak. (Or at least Hogue, White River, Chris Reeve, Pro-Tech and even the Italian manufacturers do, based on the samples that I tested).
Good discussion. A lot of people commenting don't seem to realise that materials tests are always done under stresses that significantly exceed normal use, in part because the circumstances that give rise to critical failures (accident, slippage, etc) are usually in excess of normal use. Even at home, as you're doing, that's the practice. The issue is not so much that the knife bends or breaks, but what that tells us (if anything), how that result compares to similarly treated steels, and what we can infer (if anything) from that, about the production stability and likely limits of the knife.
I might never hard use my knives, especially smaller edc friendly ones, but even so, as an enthusiast, I admire the testing you are doing. It might not make or break my decision to buy a particular knife, but I am fascinated by everything that goes into engineering one, good or bad. Keep up the good work! Hopefully it helps to keep the makers honest. It's a great time to be a knife consumer, both in quality of product, but also in available information.
gold times were 2008-2016, imo. prices were lower, almost no chinese crap, a lot of differen companies made their own stuff. quality was on pair, info availability -not so much, but exploring has it's own charme. and yes, this video is full of dealbreakers for me.
@@CuttingBoardRx no, I do not own one. I simply would not do what you did to a pocket knife. I would even stab a machete into a tree because it is made for chopping, not stabbing.
@@Below-Average_Joe let me help you here: ALL knives are made for cutting and stubbing including machete, which is NOT designed for chopping, it was developed for cutting down sugar cane and was adapted for cleaning brush, which is also cutting. Chopping is defined as removing material by chipping off chips. If a tool looks like a knife but can’t cut or stab, it’s not a knife, it usually has a different designation. Spike can’t cut. EMT tool can’t stab. Terminology matters
Great video bro. Love that you are doing different content and honestly providing some very good insights in a respectful manner. Took me like 40 seconds to sub. I dig it.
Great. 1 plus and 1 less. It took me half the video to unsub. I'm totally opposed to using the wrong tool to do a certain job and then blame the tool if it fails. Why would you do that to a tool that is not designed to sustain that kind of challenge? That's D.U.M.B. and arrogant. If I owned a garage, and I saw one of my employees destroying a tool by using it for the wrong task, I would fire them on the spot. You do that with a survival/hunting/camping fixed blade knife. Do I need to continue? Kershaw may sue you for this video, and they would be right.
If you don't what to see what a knife can stand up to...which will fail and which will prevail...then this is definitely not the channel for you. I was a good decision to unsubscribe. There are a lot of people out there flicking knives and cutting paper. I am sure they will love your comments and support.
Great work on the review and video! I had jumped on a pre-order for the Bel-Air, now I'll hold off. Other channels report the excessive locktite issue too. Hopefully shining a light on details of concern like this will help Kershaw improve. If they do my gut says this could be a popular design.
It will be a popular design no matter what. Look at the Iridium- they made a very basic knife in China and are selling it for what the US-Made Ken Onion models are sold. No one to blame but ourselves.
Thanks for a great review! There is popular TH-cam channel with over 400k subs and he calls himself a reviewer he is really a knife advertiser/ salesman for knife companies and they send him free knives for him to promote, if he likes them he keeps them for his collection if he don't he gives them away are he sells them. My issue with that is don't call yourself a reviewer when you have only played with the knife and opened a few boxes with it no testing no disassembly no sharpening basically not used the knife, He is paid by TH-cam and gets free knives from companies what a gig hes got going. Why not be honest and call yourself a collector of knives! I think everyone knows who I'm talking about MC.
MC is not my favorite reviewer. But 400K subs is something to pay attention to. The way he monetizes the channel is Ad Revenue approximately $1200-$1500 per month, Amazon commissions of about $200-$600 a month, affiliated link commissions from BHQ, DLT and such, that’s another $900- $1500 a month. I’m not familiar with instagram monetization schema or patreon but I imagine it’s not that much. I think half of the knives he gets are not sent by the companies, rather he buys and then returns them while making it sound that he’s being “consulted” by the designers. At least NK admits buying some of the knives himself and in general he’s not that good at bu#$hit so I put more faith in his channel. That is why they are not abusing the knives- they have to send them back. I turned down 3 affiliation offers BTW: some stupid outdoor gear peddler, crappy expensive Chinese chef’s knives, and a brick and mortar retail store. I have a decent day time job and that’s how I can afford to buy the knives and do whatever I want with them! More subbs would help me get the word out, so please keep sharing my vids with your friends!
@@CuttingBoardRxsomeone sent me a screenshot of this. Absolutely none of this is even remotely accurate. Please worry about your own content. Really bad look man.
@@metal_complex You probably don’t remember, but we had a comment-based conversation about a year+ back, on your channel, when you were showing some bent steel-handled knife you kept calling “integral”. Hence, I owe you a debt of gratitude: our discord prompted me to start my own channel. And I am still subbed to yours. Feel free to dispute my suppositions and approximations (clearly stated as such) in the comment above. And also thanks for working so hard in your studio, I can now appreciate just what it takes to publish 2+ videos daily! Great job!
@CuttingBoardReviews this is a much more pleasant response than I was expecting. I'm glad your channel is doing well. That's good to see/hear. You were right by the way. "Integral" was the wrong word. I'm actually very open about how my channel operates which is one of the main reasons I have so many followers. I don't claim to be anything other than a regular joe. I don't hard test anything before I review it and I make sure my audience knows this on a regular basis. I'm just a collector who enjoys various knife designs. My reviews are just my thoughts after light use and carry for 2-3 days. Sometimes I'll test a lock if I think it's prone to failure, but that's about it. Occasionally I'll do some "how to" and discussion style content as well, but it's absolutely aimed more towards collectors and enthusiasts. I can understand why at first glance my channel seems to operate on deception, but it's quite the opposite. I also do get to keep the vast majority of what is sent to me by knife companies. I dont have to send it back. I also buy TONS of knives with my own income, and have never sent one back unless it was damaged, in which case I wouldn't create content out of it. That's what I use my Patreon funds for. I make sure my patrons are aware of this as well. Thanks for letting me explain. Have a good one 👍
Great info! Thank you for all of the testing. Maybe there is a reason for some of the higher cost of some companies. Knowledge and trial and error add up. I had this knife ordered but canceled my order to wait and see what happens.
@@CuttingBoardRx Ah, ok, all this numbers thing is beyond me but I see how that can affect who they look at and who they don't waste time with, my best to you in your endeavors and be safe doing those stab tests, gives me the shivers if a blade broke and your hand continues down onto the blade edge, it would not be a fun day for sure!
@@GaryGraley42 hmm that would never… oh wait! Did you see my MSI test? Microtech MSI lock failed. See why & how to fix it. Is it a good EDC knife candidate? th-cam.com/video/pHrNp9YJt7U/w-d-xo.html
@@CuttingBoardRx I had one of the MSI folders, just didn't fit my hand as much as I hoped, nice fix you did for that btw. As to being careful I mean if the blade broke off after a stab test in the tree, many many years ago I had a Cold Steel tanto fixed blade and after watching their videos I felt that mine could do the same thing, fortunately, it WOULD, I stabbed several drainage holes into the bottom of a 55 gallon drum that we used for a burn barrel and after I did that, it dawned on me just how I could have been harmed if the blade did snap, so I never did that again, but, it did it with no damage, very impressed with it build quality
Listen, Cutting Board Reviews isn't saying that you shouldn't buy the knife based on his testing. He is also not necessarily saying that you have to put your knife through the same abuse as his testing. He is just showing you what the knife can take on the extreme end and if the knife fails what the cause may be. Could most pocket knife users take the Belair and use it for years without problem, most likely. The point I think he is trying to make is that a knife that your going to charge nearly a $170 for should also be expected to take some serious abuse. That's why he also shows knives in similar price categories and similar in function that will pass the test. With that said I am going to refrain from buying one until Kershaw either fixes the heat treat or brings out an alternative blade shape that has a lot more tip rigidity. There's a couple of ways to increase or improve yield strength. One of the easiest ways is to add some material to the area of concern. So Kershaw brings this knife out with a reverse tanto blade shape and adds a bit of steel to the tip. I don’t think the tip on the BelAir bent because of bad heat treat, I think it bent cause it just doesn’t have enough blade stock out on the tip.
Thanks for making the case for me! You are absolutely correct about adding some thickness to the blade. And it doesn’t take much: just change the grind to saber swedge and it’ll hold. Just as with deka tanto vs clip point video i did
Do you think this knife could be improved by replacing the washers/bearings with thick washers from skiff, or skiff bearings… so it’s 1 piece on each side of the blade instead of how it comes from the factory?
@@user-no9qb6lj7c I took it apart and flipped the liners “inside-out” and threw away one set of washers, left the bearings in. I think Kershaw makes much nicer knives than this one.
@@CuttingBoardRx I’ve heard great things about it, but it is disappointing in some ways, I recall the other day you said the heat treat was fixed ? I was trying to find information on that but failed to do so
*_VERY Interesting video! Meticulous explanation!_* _(I truly feel like Magnacut is maaaad overhyped!)_ _Yes its very unique to be able to hold its edge, be tough, and remain stainless!_ _I still rather have S45Vn, CPM- D2, Cruwear, 4V! I do not care about stainless!_ _(Its a pocketknife, if your paying good money for it.. take care of it, and use it for its intended purpose!)_
Agree on steels! You may be too young to remember, but about 15 years back, CPM S30V was exactly as MagnaCut is today: a trendy new super steel. Hard to believe now isn’t it?
I’m waiting for a ZT0545 I purchased a few days ago. It seems to have the same bearing/washer sandwich. The blade is also Magnacut so I’m guessing it will have the same issues then the Kershaw BelAir. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
@@CuttingBoardRx From what I understand ZT and Kershaw are both owned by KAI USA so I guessing (I might be wrong) that they send all their blades at the same heat treat shop. Anyways, I’ll have to see once it gets here and do a disassembling. I really like M4 also but my favorites are M390 and Rex45 at a toothy edge.
Hmm. Obviously with the rubber pads there’s some flex, but if your blade is moving down when you actually running the abrasive… there’s almost NO downward pressure required to remove metal with the diamond plates even for the hardest steel. Try with any inexpensive knife you own.
@@Fishhawk6 I have experience with BM 185 SOCP dagger bc I tested it like crazy in several videos. In one of them I said “you know how people make knives out of the truck spring leaf? One could make a leaf spring out of this knife!” That pretty much sums up my opinion on how well BM does the heat treat on 3V. I also have a video on Freeks in M4 vs S90V. All their steels are well balanced. You may not notice the difference since I subjected all of the above to stupid harsh tests. Hope this helps!
I think the heat treat is fine. in looking at my BelAir if yours is ground as thin as mine you simply exceeded the mechanical strength of the cross section of a blade that thin. I was not surprised at all to see it bend. Like many Spydercos this is a slicer not a knife made for lateral prying.
@@Nebulax123 All this is a great theory, but the cold facts of mechanical engineering simply don’t agree. If the blade was anywhere close to proper heat treat, it would have snapped. Not to worry. They have changed the heat treat since this video came out.
Thanks for commenting. The distance from the center of the pivot to the center of the bearing balls is important because it determines how much force is generated at the ball’s point of contact when side loading the blade. The washers deformed because they are made out of steel that’s too ductile. Let’s say I applied force F=50 lbs to the tip located at R1=3.5” from the pivot. then the force at the 2 opposing bearing balls located at R2=.3” would be equal to F(R1/R2)/2 or 50(3.5/.3)/2 = 291.7 lbs. if the balls are further away, say .5”, then the force would be 175 lbs. What’s puzzling, if I over torqued the pivot to 50 ft-lbs vs nominal 25 ft-lbs, then each of the 20 balls would exhort only 50 lbs onto the washers. So the tensile strength of the washers used by Kershaw is akin to that of a tin can.
@@Dreweldeenknives Launch 20 came in right around 63, see the video: Launch 20 Deep Dive, Hardness, Un-Biased Tests and… stuff @KershawKnivesUSA th-cam.com/video/pN6n_teyUBs/w-d-xo.html
Interesting, although I’m not sure that super thin blade is intended to be slammed into a frozen tree 25 times, or that breaking is a better outcome than bending. Scratching up the washers shouldn’t be an issue if one doesn’t over torque the bearings. All said, I did enjoy your content.
Is it overcooked or undercooked? Kershaw supposedly hardens their Magnacut blades to 60-63 HRC. It's probably closer to 60-61 HRC because other reviewers have said that Kershaw's blades feel somewhat soft. Hogue used to harden their Magnacut blades to 60-62 HRC, but now they harden them to 62-64 HRC, so the blades of your two Dekas might be of different hardness, but both of them are most probably harder than the blade of the Bel Air.
I have a magnacut dividend hrc tested at the machine shop that's local to me and it poked 3 pokes for an average of 60.7rc. I could feel it was definitely on the soft side when sharpening it, it felt like typical steel that's at 60hrc hardness wise so I took it and had it poked to see if it was a burnt edge and I needed to remove more steel to get in to Unfatigued steel or if the knife is just very soft for what MC should be and unfortunately it wasn't just a burnt edge but it was absolutely just tempered to soft. Plus the gummy burr tells me that there is absolutely a retained austenite issue from the heat treat protocol that is further proved by the tip bending and not snapping when it reached its failure point. The magnacut dividend came out a while back so that says they haven't dialed in there heat treat any since their first MC release. Hopefully they get it together because I really want a Bel Air and a MC leek but until they correct the heat treat issue and up the hardness I will not be spending my money.
The thing with kershaw is they dont listen to their customers. Main reason why i swore id never buy a kershaw or ZT knife. They just dont listen to customer feedback
A knife with 4 washers and 2 bearing tells me that their tolerances are crap.. ty for the breakdown. I like the knife and hope they will fix these shortcuts..
You are spot on, Sir! That interface is an absolute engineering f-up. It almost looks like they were designing for a different bearing, but couldn’t get the right sized ones in time so they threw the washers in. The blade is over 60 HRC, the frame - around 50-55 HRC, why in hell did they even need the washers?! These are below 40 and I don’t have the means to test that low, my educated guess is 20-25. Not to mention the washers are convexed on one side. The omega springs have much lower tensile strength than the ones BM uses BTW.
Great testing. Good to know but also expected. Kershaw tends to be off with their heat treats. They had this issues with their 20CV when they were offering those for super cheap compared to their competition.
Just as edge geometry is a primary determinant of edge retention, tip geometry is the primary determinant of resistance to permanent deformation ... not the steel composition. In other words, it's a thin tip. You should expect it to bend under that kind of use/abuse, no matter what steel or reasonable heat treat of that steel. Did you check the approximate hardness of the race washers? Grooves like that should not appear quickly even with an over-tightened pivot. Bearing races should be quite hard (~60 HRC). By the way, you mean nylon cage, not nylon race.
I checked the washers are below 45 HRC, which is the lowest I can test to with the file test. I think either you have skipped the part where I was comparing it to Deka or I didn’t state it clearly, the two have the same material, hardness, AND blade thickness .048” one snapped the other bent
Still, there are a lot of variables that are not consistent in this test. The blade geometries are different, you may have hit a harder spot in the tree, maybe you were feeling a bit feistier that day and stabbed the blade a bit harder, or twisted it a bit more. Still, I enjoyed the testing.
@@CuttingBoardRx Bent? Six months ago, you broke the tip on your Hogue Deka tanto in the tree. And the tanto has much thicker tip geometry because that's the idea of the blade shape. Plus it wasn't freezing like it is now. Anyway, there's so many variables in doing a test like that that it doesn't tell you much that 's not obvious.
Thanks for this review and all the depth you're willing to explore on any knife. I've cancelled my purchase of this knife due to a few videos you've made on it. Wish I came across it sooner. Your videos, I hope, will help many impulse buyers like myself. Subscribed.
I was never a big fan of kershaw knives, but you subjected way pass its intended use. Its designed for light cutting tasks like a typical edc knife. Hence the flat grind hybrid sheeps foot. ( IM NOT SURE WHY THEY LABELED IT AS A TANTO😂 IT WASN'T EVEN CLOSE ON BEING A TANTO😂. but great review on the steel heat treatment, lock tight, and material choice. You got my sub
@@franksalem8580 Cut off an ear to spite the face? There are so many really good knives hitting the market as we speak… but that’s your money! They just released the partially serrated version so here you go, spend away!
I own all three of the knives in this video and all have had good luck with all of them and like the Decka the best. Have not had an issue with any of the three yet but mine are not pounded into trees! Great video by the way. I love the way you torture test beyond what most users would ever put their own blades through.
Thanks a lot for the video. I had my Belair in back order and I already canceled it until kershaw launchs the version 2 or 3. I have the Deka and the MKM Eclipse in Magnacut, and I am very disappointed. I was expecting something better, not like a lightsaber, but kind of, because everybody is talking about Magnacut like the steel that is going to save our civilization. Let me be more specific. Basically I only slice with my knives, not stab, nor chop nor pry, so I only perform slicing tests checking the sharpening after 200 cuts and the after stropping to check the recovery edge. The Deka and the Eclipse have, more or less, the same performance of my Rat 2 in AUS8 or some Ganzos in 440C. Maybe testing some other characteristics, Magnacut wins.
I need to do a video about this very topic. I brought up on many occasions that MagnaCut edge retention is sub par to S90V, CPM M4 and even more older steels even at its ideal heat treat. It’s the fact that it is much much tougher and corrosion resistant than the other high alloy steels what makes it desirable to SOME people. All I’m doing is quoting Larin Thomas himself. The manufacturers are loving the craze bc it’s a very machinable alloy - lowers their mfr costs - and the sellers love it bc they can say “Intel Inside, buy Pentium!” BTW, Larin just tested 8Cr14MoV on his channel couple of days back, worth seeing!
I saw the video. Interesting that Dr. Laring was struggling trying to get a piece of 8Cr14Mov to perform the tests. One thing is the steel by itself and other thing is the knife made out of that steel. The processing can modify many things@@CuttingBoardRx
@@luisnouel4268 I just got off the phone with a small batch production knife maker John McNees and that’s exactly what we were talking about. It’s hard to get the heat treat correct but it’s not impossible.
Out of about 100 knives I tortured this way, only 14 got damaged. This and an $5 Ozark Trail are the only ones that got bent, which means crappy heat treat. Sorry I made you feel bad about the knife…
I do think you did a good job on this and its a type of review that is needed, but at the same time I do feel like its a bit unbalanced and it seems a little bit like you start with a conclusion and try to build a case for it, so for the sake of balance I want make a couple of points. - The knife is not meant for the kind of tasks that it was tested for. Its a super thin and slicy blade meant for light duty edc tasks, not flaking a tree trunk. It bending there is more likely a product of the blade thickness rather than a botched heat treat. Something like a Manix would pass that test purely by virtue of being 3-4 times thicker. - I think theres way too much speculation here. For instance, Larrin Thomas saying that retained austenite at higher temperatures can lead to the yield strenght being too low is just barely touching a topic that the vast majority of people without a degree in mechanical engineering and/or metallurgy will have enough understanding of to actually grasp the context of, much less diagnose it it practise. It bent because it was heat treated too high? Are you sure its not because the blade stock is so thin, and if yes how do you know? Also with stuff like the complaint about there being too much threadlocker in the pivot because it "might" interfere with the mechanism. Okay, but did it? Because if it didnt, and this is not a problem we hear people having (I certainly havent heard anything about it at least) then whats the point of doing that speculation into something that is a non-issue? - I dont think this is a heat treatment issue, spesifically because ive seen several tests of it clocking in at 63-64 hrc which is supposed to be optimal for magnacut. Maybe you got a lemon if this one is not? - Have you ever put wheels on a car with a torque wrench? Have you seen how little a bolt that is already ran down needs to turn as the applied torque and clamping force absolutely skyrockets? Turning a bolt (depending on its thread pitch of course) a quarter turn too much is not "a little bit", depending on what that screw is exactly that could easily be double the clamping force its intended for. If it would eat up washers like this from factory, that would be one thing, but after intentionally overtightening it im not entirely sure what im supposed to do with that information. Especially after being stabbed into a tree over and over. Again, its a light duty, luxury fidget toy. Not a bushcraft knife. - 13:32 - No its not a fair comparison. I have both of these knives and they have completely different geometries, the wharncliffe Deka has its thickest point quite heavily offset from the tip. Their stress points are completely different and I would expect the Deka to snap its tip well before the Bel Air do. Its really not a coincidence that the clip point Deka passed your test, and if the metallurgy plays a part there its a minor thing. Also, isnt bending much a much better outcome since you can easily straighten that back out with a few light taps from a copper hammer? I know this sounds like im harping on everything here, its not meant as that. I just think this needed some counterweight since theres so much speculation about the heat treat when the right way to check that is using a hardness tester (you have one of those iirc?) and/or send it in for spectroscopy. And yeah maybe Kershaw does have a heat treatment issue in a bunch of these and im the stupid one here, but the point is still about the methodology, not necessarily the result if that makes sense.
I think I’m going to buy one anyways, I can trust this knife with what I plan to use it for… I have other knives I can beat the shit out of and use for breaking down an elk, deer or bear, that’s about the hardest use my knives will get. It is disappointing to see that the tip bent, but then again I’m not surprised with how thin it is
I have had zero problems with mine no flex and it holds an amazing edge. I replaced my bearings with skiff bearings i do that with all my bearing knives. I bought this knife as a beater and thats how ive treated it and its held up amazingly. Sucks you ended up with a dud because everyone ive heard talk about it and ive talked to give it nothing but praise. You ended up with a dud it happens sometimes.
Historically, speaking, Kershaw has always done their steel softer than we would like even the 14c28n is done soft that’s just what Kershaw does. I would bet the heat protocol was probably pretty decent, but they made it soft. That’s why it for the hog has been known to always get it spot on maybe even a little harder than it should be, that’s why I would say, you know it’s bottom line physics, harder, the steel, the more brittle softer of the steel it’ll bend
Good job showing the bearing details. Using soft SS thrust washers seems like a design flaw. I’d rather have a little more friction and go without rolling elements, especially if they’re running on non-hardened surfaces.
Interesting. Nevertheless, i wouldn't use a 2mm blade to do that, so this unscientific test does nothing for me. I have other knives with a thicker blade. I would use those.
@@CuttingBoardRxnot true. That’s like saying any car can do what any other car can. Some cars are race cars and some are familiar cars. You obviously can’t use a race car to do a family cars job and can’t use a family car to do a race cars job. Blade profiles and thicknesses come into play in bending test. No offense but you’re not as smart as you think you are.
It’s always interesting to see the duality of the comments section. One side chastising the testing methods while the other is having a blast watching these knives getting tortured. I think I’m probably in the latter 😂
I am sorry but your tree test is not a reliable comparison. For the Kershaw you for some reason (although I don't think it matters I am going to point it out) you plunged it into the tree upside down. You also penetrated the tree way deeper and wrenched on it side to side way more than you did in the video of the bugout. I slowed the bugout portion down to .25 speed and the tip is barely in the tree and you basically just minutely wiggle it a couple of times and it pulls out. It comes across that you have some vendetta against Kershaw and wanted the knife to fail. Also the blade geometry of the Kershaw is not really meant to be a piercing knife but a slicing knife where as the geometry of the bugout is more for all around utility. I have no skin in the game as I do not own either knife and I will always carry a Leatherman instead of a folder but without consistent testing what are we even doing here?
Nothing wrong with "abuse tests" to check durability of items at least to degree Having said that we do hit our car/trucks with bats to see how they hold up.
All cars sold in the US undergo destructive testing mandated by NTSB. The consumers pay for these destroyed vehicles when they buy that model. Not to mention off-roading or drag racing production cars in hundreds of thousands
Yeah, I think I would pick bendy scales over a bendy blade also😆but they are both overpriced if you ask me. Base model bugouts are actually more like 160 now. You would think that kershaw would have a handle on how they wanna do there magnacut, with this not being there first knife in that steel. sidenote- I don't think it's a matter of deceit that the reviewers/"salesmen" recommending this knife didn't mention these issues, but more that they haven't hard used them and don't know there's a problem. As you mentioned a lot of knife youtubers are plenty happy to criticize a company's heat and in my experience most shortcomings in general. Omitting huge flaws in knives they have links for wouldn't be a good business model. If they were just tricking people into buying junk the viewers would lose trust and not persist. But that's just my perspective as a fan of all knife content. Either way it's too bad and I appreciate the heads up and the good video. I think I'll take your advice and hold off on this one till they get it "straightened out" pun intended 😂
Thanks for commenting! I have nothing against folks trying to make a living any way they can, but being a full time knife TH-camr is not EVER going to be my goal. I would hate being locked up in my basement trying to generate 14 videos a week… all to tell the world about the new knives made in China
You're abusing the knives In ways they're not meant to be abused. You can buy hard use folders, they exist. These knives are meant FOR CUTTING stuff. Not prying.
So you say a knife is bad because you used it in a manner that it wasn't intended for! Genius!! A light weight folding pocket knife repeatedly jammed into a frozen tree then bend from side to side and your astounded that it bend under extreme conditions! Maybe you should be reviewing rocks and anvils and leave the knife reviewing to folks that actually know what they're doing. Complete operator error!
You did understand that I showed 2 other knives in this very video that are just as light weight and they did fine? Or did you skip through these parts? You, Sir need to be more demanding, or the American knives will start looking like Chinese knives did 25 years ago. What you are saying? It’s un-American.
@@CuttingBoardRx the absurdities that are coming out of your mouth are astounding! I dont care how many knives you put through that ridiculous test, it's not a realistic use of that type of knife. Now maybe if you actually did a metallurgical test on the steel instead of regurgitating what someone else said you might have some validation to your claim! There's a reason no other knife reviewers do what you did because that test is absolutely ridiculous.
It is good to over-test to determine toughness. I'd rather have the knife that can stand up to the test. Obviously this channel is not for you. There are lots of other TH-camrs you can check out...they will ooo and ahhh for you and be happy to sell you a substandard knife🤣. You should probably stear clear of engineers and metal experts.
I find his tests to be super helpful. No one else will abuse their knives. It lets the consumer see just how much that knife can take without damaging their own.
I really enjoyed your discussion. Just as there seems to be trendy steels it seems to me like there is a current trend to bash Benchmade who almost always have everything like this already worked out on their knives before they’re delivered to customers.
A knife with 4 washers and 2 bearing tells me that their tolerances are crap.. ty for the breakdown. I like the knife and hope they will fix these shortcuts..
I know what you mean, and it's a good heuristic that "the more parts, the more questions you should have", but it may not reflect on their tolerances so much as the shortcuts they take to ensure tolerance, as you said. My guess is that as a mass production operation, they reuse what's either cheapest or most available. So where a custom production or midtech might machine each part, they might be combining existing part stock to create the target effect. Edit: just looked at the price and they should be doing better. While reuse of existing production capabilities is understandable, their immediate competition - specifically the Chinese OEMs - are doing better.
@@CuttingBoardRxnot so much that, as a kind of casualness in their approach to design. There are really only two ways to approach design if you're a mass production operation: machine the parts you need for the design you want, or constrain your design to what's possible with existing inventory. The former is expensive unless you're a Chinese OEM that can benefit from massively subsidised production capability. For everyone else, it's the latter and that's also good. Being creative with what you have is also an art. TL, DR: You shouldn't have to stack parts if your design choices were deliberately constrained to what's in inventory.
Just to be clear, what I mean is that tolerance just refers to wiggle room per part. It's not inherently the case that smaller = good because "good" can vary by use and intent, (i.e. larger tolerances might allow stresses to be absorbed in some applications, or be useful where significant movement is expected, for example.) What you *can* infer from them stacking washers is that their part tolerances are relatively broad compared to, say, Grimsmo where they refine tolerances to converge on zero deliberately, in large part as an aspect of their brand identity. (I 100% like Grimsmo but it is a bit of a cult and they've successfully translated John's OCD into a brand proposition that they're charging 1000s for.) The question of whether lower tolerances are good, when they become meaningless, and if and when they become actively bad because of binding, movement and friction, etc. is not universal. It's decided by the specific object and the specific intended application. TL;DR: they could have broad tolerances, stack the knife with washers, and still have a perfectly fine knife. (What they would have, though, is more parts abrading at any given time which is something to be aware of, though for the average person it's entirely invisible.) The real trade off, though, should be in price. i.e. if they're not creating parts with bespoke dimensions AND they're benefitting from reuse of inventory, you can reasonably expect price to be lower compared to knives that have bespoke part dimensions, etc. (Bespoke machining and zero-converged tolerances cost a lot, sometimes beyond what value they add.) The price I saw when I googled this, that's not happening and the savings, if any, are not being passed on.
Almost certain it's a heat treat issue, but you can't be heat treated to the same hardness where one is brittle and the other is not. "Overcooked" if done in the austenitizing phase would not significantly change the microstructure. Conversely, insufficient time soaking at the austenitzing temperature would result in loss of toughness and poor hardness, which is indicative of your failure mode of bending. There are a lot of heat treating steps for MagnaCut, so there are a lot of steps where something might go wrong. Could be too long in the cryogenic post-quench where it would get softer. Unless you've actually tested the hardness of both blades, it's just speculation about what went wrong in the heat treat. BTW, I'm a metallurgical engineer and I got my degree from the same school where Dr. Larrin Thomas got his Ph.D. Since most knife manufacturers don't provide details on their heat treat schedules, we can only speculate about what when wrong if a blade fails. I too, am speculating, but I'm speculating based on my knowledge of metallurgy and heat treating.
@@ahill209 Sir, I pinned your comment so that everyone can benefit from your expertise on this subject. I believe Dr. Thomas’ video regarding the discrepancies in MagnaCut HT that permeates the industry hits the same points and am glad to see some positive changes that the industry is making as we speak. (Or at least Hogue, White River, Chris Reeve, Pro-Tech and even the Italian manufacturers do, based on the samples that I tested).
The depth of this review is astounding! All substance and no gimmicks. You are the best!
Thank you! Means a lot to me!
Good discussion. A lot of people commenting don't seem to realise that materials tests are always done under stresses that significantly exceed normal use, in part because the circumstances that give rise to critical failures (accident, slippage, etc) are usually in excess of normal use. Even at home, as you're doing, that's the practice.
The issue is not so much that the knife bends or breaks, but what that tells us (if anything), how that result compares to similarly treated steels, and what we can infer (if anything) from that, about the production stability and likely limits of the knife.
Thank you for making this point! Well said!
I might never hard use my knives, especially smaller edc friendly ones, but even so, as an enthusiast, I admire the testing you are doing. It might not make or break my decision to buy a particular knife, but I am fascinated by everything that goes into engineering one, good or bad. Keep up the good work! Hopefully it helps to keep the makers honest. It's a great time to be a knife consumer, both in quality of product, but also in available information.
gold times were 2008-2016, imo. prices were lower, almost no chinese crap, a lot of differen companies made their own stuff. quality was on pair, info availability -not so much, but exploring has it's own charme.
and yes, this video is full of dealbreakers for me.
If it wasn't heat treated properly, will that affect the edge retention property?
@@newbe46 it would definitely affect the edge retention
It took a lot of nerve to bring this knife to the tree of doom. Because I actually liked it. But this is what I do…
Yup
It’s a thin pocket knife, not an ax. The blade was not meant for stabbing twisting in a frozen tree.
This review is totally comical, abuse the hell out the knife then talk 💩
You two must’ve bought the BelAir already?
@@CuttingBoardRx no, I do not own one. I simply would not do what you did to a pocket knife. I would even stab a machete into a tree because it is made for chopping, not stabbing.
@@Below-Average_Joe let me help you here: ALL knives are made for cutting and stubbing including machete, which is NOT designed for chopping, it was developed for cutting down sugar cane and was adapted for cleaning brush, which is also cutting. Chopping is defined as removing material by chipping off chips.
If a tool looks like a knife but can’t cut or stab, it’s not a knife, it usually has a different designation. Spike can’t cut. EMT tool can’t stab. Terminology matters
@@CuttingBoardRx you are certainly entitled to your opinion, sir. I have been using knives nearly sixty years myself and I do alright.
Great video bro. Love that you are doing different content and honestly providing some very good insights in a respectful manner. Took me like 40 seconds to sub. I dig it.
Thank you! Means a lot to me
Great. 1 plus and 1 less. It took me half the video to unsub. I'm totally opposed to using the wrong tool to do a certain job and then blame the tool if it fails. Why would you do that to a tool that is not designed to sustain that kind of challenge? That's D.U.M.B. and arrogant. If I owned a garage, and I saw one of my employees destroying a tool by using it for the wrong task, I would fire them on the spot. You do that with a survival/hunting/camping fixed blade knife. Do I need to continue? Kershaw may sue you for this video, and they would be right.
If you don't what to see what a knife can stand up to...which will fail and which will prevail...then this is definitely not the channel for you. I was a good decision to unsubscribe. There are a lot of people out there flicking knives and cutting paper. I am sure they will love your comments and support.
Sir, everything that is in the video is either backed up by video evidence or, when uncertainty exists, stated as supposition.
Thanks for the review. It is good to know the weakness of the knife.
Thanks, appreciate the feedback!
Great work on the review and video! I had jumped on a pre-order for the Bel-Air, now I'll hold off. Other channels report the excessive locktite issue too. Hopefully shining a light on details of concern like this will help Kershaw improve. If they do my gut says this could be a popular design.
It will be a popular design no matter what. Look at the Iridium- they made a very basic knife in China and are selling it for what the US-Made Ken Onion models are sold. No one to blame but ourselves.
Is this extreme not intended for heavy use
You never know what happens until it does
@@CuttingBoardRx Would you test a butter knife in this manner? After all, you never know what happens until it does, in your words.
Thanks for a great review! There is popular TH-cam channel with over 400k subs and he calls himself a reviewer he is really a knife advertiser/ salesman for knife companies and they send him free knives for him to promote, if he likes them he keeps them for his collection if he don't he gives them away are he sells them. My issue with that is don't call yourself a reviewer when you have only played with the knife and opened a few boxes with it no testing no disassembly no sharpening basically not used the knife, He is paid by TH-cam and gets free knives from companies what a gig hes got going. Why not be honest and call yourself a collector of knives! I think everyone knows who I'm talking about MC.
MC is not my favorite reviewer. But 400K subs is something to pay attention to. The way he monetizes the channel is Ad Revenue approximately $1200-$1500 per month, Amazon commissions of about $200-$600 a month, affiliated link commissions from BHQ, DLT and such, that’s another $900- $1500 a month. I’m not familiar with instagram monetization schema or patreon but I imagine it’s not that much. I think half of the knives he gets are not sent by the companies, rather he buys and then returns them while making it sound that he’s being “consulted” by the designers. At least NK admits buying some of the knives himself and in general he’s not that good at bu#$hit so I put more faith in his channel. That is why they are not abusing the knives- they have to send them back. I turned down 3 affiliation offers BTW: some stupid outdoor gear peddler, crappy expensive Chinese chef’s knives, and a brick and mortar retail store. I have a decent day time job and that’s how I can afford to buy the knives and do whatever I want with them! More subbs would help me get the word out, so please keep sharing my vids with your friends!
@@CuttingBoardRxsomeone sent me a screenshot of this. Absolutely none of this is even remotely accurate. Please worry about your own content. Really bad look man.
@@metal_complex You probably don’t remember, but we had a comment-based conversation about a year+ back, on your channel, when you were showing some bent steel-handled knife you kept calling “integral”. Hence, I owe you a debt of gratitude: our discord prompted me to start my own channel. And I am still subbed to yours. Feel free to dispute my suppositions and approximations (clearly stated as such) in the comment above.
And also thanks for working so hard in your studio, I can now appreciate just what it takes to publish 2+ videos daily! Great job!
@CuttingBoardReviews this is a much more pleasant response than I was expecting. I'm glad your channel is doing well. That's good to see/hear. You were right by the way. "Integral" was the wrong word.
I'm actually very open about how my channel operates which is one of the main reasons I have so many followers. I don't claim to be anything other than a regular joe. I don't hard test anything before I review it and I make sure my audience knows this on a regular basis. I'm just a collector who enjoys various knife designs. My reviews are just my thoughts after light use and carry for 2-3 days. Sometimes I'll test a lock if I think it's prone to failure, but that's about it. Occasionally I'll do some "how to" and discussion style content as well, but it's absolutely aimed more towards collectors and enthusiasts. I can understand why at first glance my channel seems to operate on deception, but it's quite the opposite.
I also do get to keep the vast majority of what is sent to me by knife companies. I dont have to send it back. I also buy TONS of knives with my own income, and have never sent one back unless it was damaged, in which case I wouldn't create content out of it. That's what I use my Patreon funds for. I make sure my patrons are aware of this as well.
Thanks for letting me explain. Have a good one 👍
I thought this review was crap but seeing how you respond is even more cringe.
Your English sucks
This comment is on point. Do not watch this fool.
What was the issue with the launch 19 ? Just curious
Great info! Thank you for all of the testing. Maybe there is a reason for some of the higher cost of some companies. Knowledge and trial and error add up. I had this knife ordered but canceled my order to wait and see what happens.
There’s a ton of great knives coming out this year! Stay tuned, I’ll test most of them!
Curious as to how Kershaw responded to your findings?
They are not aware of my existence, Sir! That’s why I’m drumming up for more subscribers - the industry ignores anyone with fewer than 20K subs
@@CuttingBoardRx Ah, ok, all this numbers thing is beyond me but I see how that can affect who they look at and who they don't waste time with, my best to you in your endeavors and be safe doing those stab tests, gives me the shivers if a blade broke and your hand continues down onto the blade edge, it would not be a fun day for sure!
@@GaryGraley42 hmm that would never… oh wait! Did you see my MSI test? Microtech MSI lock failed. See why & how to fix it. Is it a good EDC knife candidate?
th-cam.com/video/pHrNp9YJt7U/w-d-xo.html
@@CuttingBoardRx I had one of the MSI folders, just didn't fit my hand as much as I hoped, nice fix you did for that btw.
As to being careful I mean if the blade broke off after a stab test in the tree, many many years ago I had a Cold Steel tanto fixed blade and after watching their videos I felt that mine could do the same thing, fortunately, it WOULD, I stabbed several drainage holes into the bottom of a 55 gallon drum that we used for a burn barrel and after I did that, it dawned on me just how I could have been harmed if the blade did snap, so I never did that again, but, it did it with no damage, very impressed with it build quality
Listen, Cutting Board Reviews isn't saying that you shouldn't buy the knife based on his testing. He is also not necessarily saying that you have to put your knife through the same abuse as his testing. He is just showing you what the knife can take on the extreme end and if the knife fails what the cause may be. Could most pocket knife users take the Belair and use it for years without problem, most likely. The point I think he is trying to make is that a knife that your going to charge nearly a $170 for should also be expected to take some serious abuse. That's why he also shows knives in similar price categories and similar in function that will pass the test. With that said I am going to refrain from buying one until Kershaw either fixes the heat treat or brings out an alternative blade shape that has a lot more tip rigidity. There's a couple of ways to increase or improve yield strength. One of the easiest ways is to add some material to the area of concern. So Kershaw brings this knife out with a reverse tanto blade shape and adds a bit of steel to the tip. I don’t think the tip on the BelAir bent because of bad heat treat, I think it bent cause it just doesn’t have enough blade stock out on the tip.
Thanks for making the case for me! You are absolutely correct about adding some thickness to the blade. And it doesn’t take much: just change the grind to saber swedge and it’ll hold. Just as with deka tanto vs clip point video i did
Do you think this knife could be improved by replacing the washers/bearings with thick washers from skiff, or skiff bearings… so it’s 1 piece on each side of the blade instead of how it comes from the factory?
@@user-no9qb6lj7c I took it apart and flipped the liners “inside-out” and threw away one set of washers, left the bearings in. I think Kershaw makes much nicer knives than this one.
@@CuttingBoardRx I’ve heard great things about it, but it is disappointing in some ways, I recall the other day you said the heat treat was fixed ? I was trying to find information on that but failed to do so
@user-no9qb6lj7c somebody commented that they originally advertised lower hardness but a few months later changed it on their websites
*_VERY Interesting video! Meticulous explanation!_*
_(I truly feel like Magnacut is maaaad overhyped!)_
_Yes its very unique to be able to hold its edge, be tough, and remain stainless!_
_I still rather have S45Vn, CPM- D2, Cruwear, 4V! I do not care about stainless!_
_(Its a pocketknife, if your paying good money for it.. take care of it, and use it for its intended purpose!)_
Agree on steels! You may be too young to remember, but about 15 years back, CPM S30V was exactly as MagnaCut is today: a trendy new super steel. Hard to believe now isn’t it?
I’m waiting for a ZT0545 I purchased a few days ago. It seems to have the same bearing/washer sandwich. The blade is also Magnacut so I’m guessing it will have the same issues then the Kershaw BelAir. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
Thanks! ZT may use a different heat treat shop and better washers. So don’t worry about it yet! My favorite steels are still CPM M4, S45VN and 3V.
@@CuttingBoardRx From what I understand ZT and Kershaw are both owned by KAI USA so I guessing (I might be wrong) that they send all their blades at the same heat treat shop. Anyways, I’ll have to see once it gets here and do a disassembling. I really like M4 also but my favorites are M390 and Rex45 at a toothy edge.
Hmm. Obviously with the rubber pads there’s some flex, but if your blade is moving down when you actually running the abrasive… there’s almost NO downward pressure required to remove metal with the diamond plates even for the hardest steel. Try with any inexpensive knife you own.
@@CuttingBoardRxWhat’s your take on the difference between the bailouts M4 vs their 3V. Is the 3V going to be noticeably tougher?
@@Fishhawk6 I have experience with BM 185 SOCP dagger bc I tested it like crazy in several videos. In one of them I said “you know how people make knives out of the truck spring leaf? One could make a leaf spring out of this knife!” That pretty much sums up my opinion on how well BM does the heat treat on 3V. I also have a video on Freeks in M4 vs S90V. All their steels are well balanced. You may not notice the difference since I subjected all of the above to stupid harsh tests. Hope this helps!
I think the heat treat is fine. in looking at my BelAir if yours is ground as thin as mine you simply exceeded the mechanical strength of the cross section of a blade that thin. I was not surprised at all to see it bend. Like many Spydercos this is a slicer not a knife made for lateral prying.
@@Nebulax123 All this is a great theory, but the cold facts of mechanical engineering simply don’t agree. If the blade was anywhere close to proper heat treat, it would have snapped. Not to worry. They have changed the heat treat since this video came out.
@@CuttingBoardRx The cold facts of mechanical engineering? Well who could argue with that.
@ Same type of a person who would wrestle with pigs in mud… I’m thankful you’re not one of them 👍
Great vid! The bearings look like a smaller diameter which would more easily deform the washer.
Thanks for commenting. The distance from the center of the pivot to the center of the bearing balls is important because it determines how much force is generated at the ball’s point of contact when side loading the blade. The washers deformed because they are made out of steel that’s too ductile. Let’s say I applied force F=50 lbs to the tip located at R1=3.5” from the pivot. then the force at the 2 opposing bearing balls located at R2=.3” would be equal to F(R1/R2)/2 or 50(3.5/.3)/2 = 291.7 lbs. if the balls are further away, say .5”, then the force would be 175 lbs. What’s puzzling, if I over torqued the pivot to 50 ft-lbs vs nominal 25 ft-lbs, then each of the 20 balls would exhort only 50 lbs onto the washers. So the tensile strength of the washers used by Kershaw is akin to that of a tin can.
I have a Kershaw launch in magnacut and it seems soft
@@Dreweldeenknives Launch 20 came in right around 63, see the video:
Launch 20 Deep Dive, Hardness, Un-Biased Tests and… stuff @KershawKnivesUSA
th-cam.com/video/pN6n_teyUBs/w-d-xo.html
I meant leek
You're doing Gods work. We all know the other knifetubers won't.
😂😂😂😂😂
Thanks! Means a lot to me!
Interesting, although I’m not sure that super thin blade is intended to be slammed into a frozen tree 25 times, or that breaking is a better outcome than bending. Scratching up the washers shouldn’t be an issue if one doesn’t over torque the bearings. All said, I did enjoy your content.
Difference of opinions
Is it overcooked or undercooked? Kershaw supposedly hardens their Magnacut blades to 60-63 HRC. It's probably closer to 60-61 HRC because other reviewers have said that Kershaw's blades feel somewhat soft. Hogue used to harden their Magnacut blades to 60-62 HRC, but now they harden them to 62-64 HRC, so the blades of your two Dekas might be of different hardness, but both of them are most probably harder than the blade of the Bel Air.
I have a magnacut dividend hrc tested at the machine shop that's local to me and it poked 3 pokes for an average of 60.7rc. I could feel it was definitely on the soft side when sharpening it, it felt like typical steel that's at 60hrc hardness wise so I took it and had it poked to see if it was a burnt edge and I needed to remove more steel to get in to Unfatigued steel or if the knife is just very soft for what MC should be and unfortunately it wasn't just a burnt edge but it was absolutely just tempered to soft. Plus the gummy burr tells me that there is absolutely a retained austenite issue from the heat treat protocol that is further proved by the tip bending and not snapping when it reached its failure point. The magnacut dividend came out a while back so that says they haven't dialed in there heat treat any since their first MC release. Hopefully they get it together because I really want a Bel Air and a MC leek but until they correct the heat treat issue and up the hardness I will not be spending my money.
This one didn’t feel as soft as the Spartan Hoback… just kidding Lace, Harsey which is below 60.
I just got this knife for Christmas yesterday. I guess I’ll just have to pray no trees try to attack me. 😅
Great review, definitely dont want my knives to bend and stay bent, if i push a knife to hard i expect it to snap
Exactly! That Dr. Thomas video was spot on btw
The thing with kershaw is they dont listen to their customers. Main reason why i swore id never buy a kershaw or ZT knife. They just dont listen to customer feedback
They only listen to the TH-camrs knife reviewers with over 100K subscribers. Help me get there: share this video on social platforms please!
A knife with 4 washers and 2 bearing tells me that their tolerances are crap.. ty for the breakdown. I like the knife and hope they will fix these shortcuts..
You are spot on, Sir! That interface is an absolute engineering f-up. It almost looks like they were designing for a different bearing, but couldn’t get the right sized ones in time so they threw the washers in. The blade is over 60 HRC, the frame - around 50-55 HRC, why in hell did they even need the washers?! These are below 40 and I don’t have the means to test that low, my educated guess is 20-25. Not to mention the washers are convexed on one side. The omega springs have much lower tensile strength than the ones BM uses BTW.
Yeah that washer/bearing assembly is really suspect.
Great testing. Good to know but also expected. Kershaw tends to be off with their heat treats. They had this issues with their 20CV when they were offering those for super cheap compared to their competition.
Just as edge geometry is a primary determinant of edge retention, tip geometry is the primary determinant of resistance to permanent deformation ... not the steel composition. In other words, it's a thin tip. You should expect it to bend under that kind of use/abuse, no matter what steel or reasonable heat treat of that steel. Did you check the approximate hardness of the race washers? Grooves like that should not appear quickly even with an over-tightened pivot. Bearing races should be quite hard (~60 HRC). By the way, you mean nylon cage, not nylon race.
I checked the washers are below 45 HRC, which is the lowest I can test to with the file test. I think either you have skipped the part where I was comparing it to Deka or I didn’t state it clearly, the two have the same material, hardness, AND blade thickness .048” one snapped the other bent
Still, there are a lot of variables that are not consistent in this test. The blade geometries are different, you may have hit a harder spot in the tree, maybe you were feeling a bit feistier that day and stabbed the blade a bit harder, or twisted it a bit more. Still, I enjoyed the testing.
@@daver6564 well, I hit 25 times so variability averages out at least to some extent.
@@CuttingBoardRx Bent? Six months ago, you broke the tip on your Hogue Deka tanto in the tree. And the tanto has much thicker tip geometry because that's the idea of the blade shape. Plus it wasn't freezing like it is now. Anyway, there's so many variables in doing a test like that that it doesn't tell you much that 's not obvious.
@@CuttingBoardRx Either the heat treat on the washers is bad, or they weren't heat treated at all. Either way, someone goofed up.
It’s like a new model car, best wait some time for them to work out the bugs.
Spot on!
Thanks for this review and all the depth you're willing to explore on any knife. I've cancelled my purchase of this knife due to a few videos you've made on it. Wish I came across it sooner. Your videos, I hope, will help many impulse buyers like myself. Subscribed.
I was never a big fan of kershaw knives, but you subjected way pass its intended use. Its designed for light cutting tasks like a typical edc knife. Hence the flat grind hybrid sheeps foot. ( IM NOT SURE WHY THEY LABELED IT AS A TANTO😂 IT WASN'T EVEN CLOSE ON BEING A TANTO😂. but great review on the steel heat treatment, lock tight, and material choice. You got my sub
@@Mr2fierce Welcome to the tribe
This was a great review and breakdown. I appreciate no BS
I love this knife and would buy it again despite your testing.
@@franksalem8580 Cut off an ear to spite the face? There are so many really good knives hitting the market as we speak… but that’s your money! They just released the partially serrated version so here you go, spend away!
I own all three of the knives in this video and all have had good luck with all of them and like the Decka the best. Have not had an issue with any of the three yet but mine are not pounded into trees! Great video by the way. I love the way you torture test beyond what most users would ever put their own blades through.
Thanks a lot for the video. I had my Belair in back order and I already canceled it until kershaw launchs the version 2 or 3.
I have the Deka and the MKM Eclipse in Magnacut, and I am very disappointed. I was expecting something better, not like a lightsaber, but kind of, because everybody is talking about Magnacut like the steel that is going to save our civilization.
Let me be more specific. Basically I only slice with my knives, not stab, nor chop nor pry, so I only perform slicing tests checking the sharpening after 200 cuts and the after stropping to check the recovery edge. The Deka and the Eclipse have, more or less, the same performance of my Rat 2 in AUS8 or some Ganzos in 440C. Maybe testing some other characteristics, Magnacut wins.
I need to do a video about this very topic. I brought up on many occasions that MagnaCut edge retention is sub par to S90V, CPM M4 and even more older steels even at its ideal heat treat. It’s the fact that it is much much tougher and corrosion resistant than the other high alloy steels what makes it desirable to SOME people. All I’m doing is quoting Larin Thomas himself. The manufacturers are loving the craze bc it’s a very machinable alloy - lowers their mfr costs - and the sellers love it bc they can say “Intel Inside, buy Pentium!”
BTW, Larin just tested 8Cr14MoV on his channel couple of days back, worth seeing!
I saw the video. Interesting that Dr. Laring was struggling trying to get a piece of 8Cr14Mov to perform the tests. One thing is the steel by itself and other thing is the knife made out of that steel. The processing can modify many things@@CuttingBoardRx
@@luisnouel4268 I just got off the phone with a small batch production knife maker John McNees and that’s exactly what we were talking about. It’s hard to get the heat treat correct but it’s not impossible.
wonder will it happen to brenchmade bugout
@@vicentvanmole They will make a titanium scales version with flat omega springs. Or not? 🤷♂️🤷
My hypothesis is that the tree was feeling extra doomy for the kershaw.
Maybe it was vengeful for letting Kershaw Livewire escape the doom 😆
@@CuttingBoardRx The Tree of Doom has evolved into the Tree of Vengeance! Knives beware! 😬
You can't blame the knife because you bent the tip. That's pretty ridiculous
Out of about 100 knives I tortured this way, only 14 got damaged. This and an $5 Ozark Trail are the only ones that got bent, which means crappy heat treat. Sorry I made you feel bad about the knife…
@CuttingBoardReviews I don't feel bad about the knife lol. It was never made to do what you are doing to it. It's a light duty slicer knife.
Thank you for this test. You stopped me from the reddit hype, and I was already about to order this knife. Now I'm giving up.
There are tons of knives in this price range and category! Hope you find one to enjoy!
at least now they put ball bearing between steel washers. my 0452cf has it directly on the surface of titanium frame. 😬
I do think you did a good job on this and its a type of review that is needed, but at the same time I do feel like its a bit unbalanced and it seems a little bit like you start with a conclusion and try to build a case for it, so for the sake of balance I want make a couple of points.
- The knife is not meant for the kind of tasks that it was tested for. Its a super thin and slicy blade meant for light duty edc tasks, not flaking a tree trunk. It bending there is more likely a product of the blade thickness rather than a botched heat treat. Something like a Manix would pass that test purely by virtue of being 3-4 times thicker.
- I think theres way too much speculation here. For instance, Larrin Thomas saying that retained austenite at higher temperatures can lead to the yield strenght being too low is just barely touching a topic that the vast majority of people without a degree in mechanical engineering and/or metallurgy will have enough understanding of to actually grasp the context of, much less diagnose it it practise. It bent because it was heat treated too high? Are you sure its not because the blade stock is so thin, and if yes how do you know? Also with stuff like the complaint about there being too much threadlocker in the pivot because it "might" interfere with the mechanism. Okay, but did it? Because if it didnt, and this is not a problem we hear people having (I certainly havent heard anything about it at least) then whats the point of doing that speculation into something that is a non-issue?
- I dont think this is a heat treatment issue, spesifically because ive seen several tests of it clocking in at 63-64 hrc which is supposed to be optimal for magnacut. Maybe you got a lemon if this one is not?
- Have you ever put wheels on a car with a torque wrench? Have you seen how little a bolt that is already ran down needs to turn as the applied torque and clamping force absolutely skyrockets? Turning a bolt (depending on its thread pitch of course) a quarter turn too much is not "a little bit", depending on what that screw is exactly that could easily be double the clamping force its intended for. If it would eat up washers like this from factory, that would be one thing, but after intentionally overtightening it im not entirely sure what im supposed to do with that information. Especially after being stabbed into a tree over and over. Again, its a light duty, luxury fidget toy. Not a bushcraft knife.
- 13:32 - No its not a fair comparison. I have both of these knives and they have completely different geometries, the wharncliffe Deka has its thickest point quite heavily offset from the tip. Their stress points are completely different and I would expect the Deka to snap its tip well before the Bel Air do. Its really not a coincidence that the clip point Deka passed your test, and if the metallurgy plays a part there its a minor thing. Also, isnt bending much a much better outcome since you can easily straighten that back out with a few light taps from a copper hammer?
I know this sounds like im harping on everything here, its not meant as that. I just think this needed some counterweight since theres so much speculation about the heat treat when the right way to check that is using a hardness tester (you have one of those iirc?) and/or send it in for spectroscopy. And yeah maybe Kershaw does have a heat treatment issue in a bunch of these and im the stupid one here, but the point is still about the methodology, not necessarily the result if that makes sense.
@@kvernesdotten Thanks for watching!
MyBugouts cheap if they are below 20 degrees sharpened. I love them as I own 4 ,but prices ....
Well, neither the BelAir nor Deka beats the performance, so why would they worry about being $20 more?
I think I’m going to buy one anyways, I can trust this knife with what I plan to use it for… I have other knives I can beat the shit out of and use for breaking down an elk, deer or bear, that’s about the hardest use my knives will get. It is disappointing to see that the tip bent, but then again I’m not surprised with how thin it is
@@user-no9qb6lj7c the whole point is that the tip should have broke off. Anyway, they supposedly fixed the HT by now.
@@CuttingBoardRx that’s good to hear
I have had zero problems with mine no flex and it holds an amazing edge. I replaced my bearings with skiff bearings i do that with all my bearing knives. I bought this knife as a beater and thats how ive treated it and its held up amazingly. Sucks you ended up with a dud because everyone ive heard talk about it and ive talked to give it nothing but praise. You ended up with a dud it happens sometimes.
That's the next knife on my list to purchase. I won't be using it like this. It'll be lightly used like my bugout.
@@TheSmileyTek I hear Kershaw has awesome warranty! No need to baby the knife 😉
good job
Appreciate you!
This man would destroy a steel ball with a rubber hammer and say the rubber hammer is junk for taking to many hits to destroy the steel ball.
thanks for watching!
Good review. You are one of the few I believe.
You've literally tried to break a really thin knife via abuse and it bent. It's not a thick stock.
Historically, speaking, Kershaw has always done their steel softer than we would like even the 14c28n is done soft that’s just what Kershaw does. I would bet the heat protocol was probably pretty decent, but they made it soft. That’s why it for the hog has been known to always get it spot on maybe even a little harder than it should be, that’s why I would say, you know it’s bottom line physics, harder, the steel, the more brittle softer of the steel it’ll bend
Good job showing the bearing details. Using soft SS thrust washers seems like a design flaw.
I’d rather have a little more friction and go without rolling elements, especially if they’re running on non-hardened surfaces.
Great point! Totally agree and stand by for that video
Great test
Thanks!
Interesting. Nevertheless, i wouldn't use a 2mm blade to do that, so this unscientific test does nothing for me. I have other knives with a thicker blade. I would use those.
I do like the Bel Air design, but don’t think Magnacut is worth the premium in the design. I’ll wait and see where Kershaw goes.
MagnaCut is going to dominate the knife industry but it will be considered a basic steel by most people just as S30V is today.
Seems like a light use knife.
Is it hard used knife Na
Слава Україні! Тому я їм не користуюсь
Knife isn’t met for that
Any knife should be able to do a job of any other knife.
@@CuttingBoardRxnot true. That’s like saying any car can do what any other car can. Some cars are race cars and some are familiar cars. You obviously can’t use a race car to do a family cars job and can’t use a family car to do a race cars job. Blade profiles and thicknesses come into play in bending test. No offense but you’re not as smart as you think you are.
It's a blade made for slicing period
Let’s see how that pans out! An overcooked high alloy usually doesn’t hold the edge
Show me a blade that thin that won't bend doing that
Hogue Deka clip point passed with flying colours!
th-cam.com/video/W0vHK57c2uQ/w-d-xo.html
It’s always interesting to see the duality of the comments section. One side chastising the testing methods while the other is having a blast watching these knives getting tortured. I think I’m probably in the latter 😂
I can always tell if a commenter already owns the knife that failed…
Would never trust a bearing knife.
I’m not sure if that’s a binary differentiator. If the design is properly done and all angles considered, it shouldn’t matter
@@CuttingBoardRxthen why benchmade, spyderco & cold steel, which are the OG of reliable & hard use knives don't use bearings?
@@filipposalexandris6672 748 Narrows has bearings.
@@CuttingBoardRx yes but the narrows is an overengineered and very expensive knife, and it's the only one in their current lineup with bb.
@@filipposalexandris6672 correct. But I tested 748 Narrows super hard and it is a strong knife (I published videos about it) it didn’t fail.
I am sorry but your tree test is not a reliable comparison. For the Kershaw you for some reason (although I don't think it matters I am going to point it out) you plunged it into the tree upside down. You also penetrated the tree way deeper and wrenched on it side to side way more than you did in the video of the bugout. I slowed the bugout portion down to .25 speed and the tip is barely in the tree and you basically just minutely wiggle it a couple of times and it pulls out. It comes across that you have some vendetta against Kershaw and wanted the knife to fail. Also the blade geometry of the Kershaw is not really meant to be a piercing knife but a slicing knife where as the geometry of the bugout is more for all around utility.
I have no skin in the game as I do not own either knife and I will always carry a Leatherman instead of a folder but without consistent testing what are we even doing here?
Nothing wrong with "abuse tests" to check durability of items at least to degree Having said that we do hit our car/trucks with bats to see how they hold up.
All cars sold in the US undergo destructive testing mandated by NTSB. The consumers pay for these destroyed vehicles when they buy that model. Not to mention off-roading or drag racing production cars in hundreds of thousands
Yeah, I think I would pick bendy scales over a bendy blade also😆but they are both overpriced if you ask me. Base model bugouts are actually more like 160 now. You would think that kershaw would have a handle on how they wanna do there magnacut, with this not being there first knife in that steel. sidenote- I don't think it's a matter of deceit that the reviewers/"salesmen" recommending this knife didn't mention these issues, but more that they haven't hard used them and don't know there's a problem. As you mentioned a lot of knife youtubers are plenty happy to criticize a company's heat and in my experience most shortcomings in general. Omitting huge flaws in knives they have links for wouldn't be a good business model. If they were just tricking people into buying junk the viewers would lose trust and not persist. But that's just my perspective as a fan of all knife content. Either way it's too bad and I appreciate the heads up and the good video. I think I'll take your advice and hold off on this one till they get it "straightened out" pun intended 😂
Thanks for commenting! I have nothing against folks trying to make a living any way they can, but being a full time knife TH-camr is not EVER going to be my goal. I would hate being locked up in my basement trying to generate 14 videos a week… all to tell the world about the new knives made in China
As always. Great content from the best knife channel there is.
Thanks, this means a lot to me!
Smarty pants
Wonder if I can talk my wife into enlisting so I can get that sweet discount 🤔
🤣😂
Overpriced garbage.
They are still going to sell a million of them.
Of course they will, they sent free knifes to every youtuber in exchange for positive reviews and praises.@@CuttingBoardRx
You're abusing the knives In ways they're not meant to be abused. You can buy hard use folders, they exist. These knives are meant FOR CUTTING stuff. Not prying.
So you say a knife is bad because you used it in a manner that it wasn't intended for! Genius!! A light weight folding pocket knife repeatedly jammed into a frozen tree then bend from side to side and your astounded that it bend under extreme conditions! Maybe you should be reviewing rocks and anvils and leave the knife reviewing to folks that actually know what they're doing. Complete operator error!
You did understand that I showed 2 other knives in this very video that are just as light weight and they did fine? Or did you skip through these parts? You, Sir need to be more demanding, or the American knives will start looking like Chinese knives did 25 years ago. What you are saying? It’s un-American.
@@CuttingBoardRx the absurdities that are coming out of your mouth are astounding! I dont care how many knives you put through that ridiculous test, it's not a realistic use of that type of knife. Now maybe if you actually did a metallurgical test on the steel instead of regurgitating what someone else said you might have some validation to your claim! There's a reason no other knife reviewers do what you did because that test is absolutely ridiculous.
It is good to over-test to determine toughness. I'd rather have the knife that can stand up to the test. Obviously this channel is not for you. There are lots of other TH-camrs you can check out...they will ooo and ahhh for you and be happy to sell you a substandard knife🤣. You should probably stear clear of engineers and metal experts.
"Steer" clear🤣. It's early.
I find his tests to be super helpful. No one else will abuse their knives. It lets the consumer see just how much that knife can take without damaging their own.
This is plain stupid.
@@HeartsXoXd This is Evin! Nice to meet you!
Is Plain your legal first name or is it a bedroom nickname?
And childish too.
With so many overhyped videos, I like these honest knife videos.
I like Kershaw and wish them the best.
I really enjoyed your discussion. Just as there seems to be trendy steels it seems to me like there is a current trend to bash Benchmade who almost always have everything like this already worked out on their knives before they’re delivered to customers.
Do you do anything besides complain?
Ask your sister 😉
WTF show the other knife. Just do the video.
@@sgtgrantham Everything you need to see is right here:
th-cam.com/video/R69gs4tUT7s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_VvLhIk-C6PYw6ij
Thank you man!
My pleasure, Sir!
I was contemplating the Launch 13, you never came back to explain it's problems. Im holding off until I figure this out.
A knife with 4 washers and 2 bearing tells me that their tolerances are crap.. ty for the breakdown. I like the knife and hope they will fix these shortcuts..
design by committee if I had to guess.
I know what you mean, and it's a good heuristic that "the more parts, the more questions you should have", but it may not reflect on their tolerances so much as the shortcuts they take to ensure tolerance, as you said. My guess is that as a mass production operation, they reuse what's either cheapest or most available. So where a custom production or midtech might machine each part, they might be combining existing part stock to create the target effect.
Edit: just looked at the price and they should be doing better. While reuse of existing production capabilities is understandable, their immediate competition - specifically the Chinese OEMs - are doing better.
@@CuttingBoardRxnot so much that, as a kind of casualness in their approach to design. There are really only two ways to approach design if you're a mass production operation: machine the parts you need for the design you want, or constrain your design to what's possible with existing inventory. The former is expensive unless you're a Chinese OEM that can benefit from massively subsidised production capability. For everyone else, it's the latter and that's also good. Being creative with what you have is also an art. TL, DR: You shouldn't have to stack parts if your design choices were deliberately constrained to what's in inventory.
Just to be clear, what I mean is that tolerance just refers to wiggle room per part. It's not inherently the case that smaller = good because "good" can vary by use and intent, (i.e. larger tolerances might allow stresses to be absorbed in some applications, or be useful where significant movement is expected, for example.) What you *can* infer from them stacking washers is that their part tolerances are relatively broad compared to, say, Grimsmo where they refine tolerances to converge on zero deliberately, in large part as an aspect of their brand identity. (I 100% like Grimsmo but it is a bit of a cult and they've successfully translated John's OCD into a brand proposition that they're charging 1000s for.) The question of whether lower tolerances are good, when they become meaningless, and if and when they become actively bad because of binding, movement and friction, etc. is not universal. It's decided by the specific object and the specific intended application. TL;DR: they could have broad tolerances, stack the knife with washers, and still have a perfectly fine knife. (What they would have, though, is more parts abrading at any given time which is something to be aware of, though for the average person it's entirely invisible.) The real trade off, though, should be in price. i.e. if they're not creating parts with bespoke dimensions AND they're benefitting from reuse of inventory, you can reasonably expect price to be lower compared to knives that have bespoke part dimensions, etc. (Bespoke machining and zero-converged tolerances cost a lot, sometimes beyond what value they add.) The price I saw when I googled this, that's not happening and the savings, if any, are not being passed on.