My least favorite trope will always be "wanting someone being treated as loving someone" where a character acts like someone is theirs because of whatever messed up entitled reason they come up with and then keep interfering in that person's life and trying to wear them down until they finally fall for them because the plot says so, usually getting in the way of a possible healthy relationship they might be having. I really wish more people would learn to separate being romantic from being possessive.
Also, someone(usually a man) obsessing over someone who is clearly not interested and barely notices his existence. I feel like this is more common in songs, but it's still so gross to romanticise it. It's not romantic, it's creepy as hell.
I don't think there's any inherent issue with writing female characters who are "vertically challenged". That on it's own doesn't have unfortunate implications and it's honestly kind of mean to even imply it. It only becomes an issue if the person in question is *also* depicted as innocent and naive (women with experience? lol, can't have that) and a general doormat (how could our masculine hunk love someone with a brain?), because at that point you give off child vibes even if she's a 1000 year old dragon.
Yeah, I can understand wanting to have short leads in romance as well. There is this bit weird situation going with female height: On the other hand, woman is "not supposed" to be longer than her partner. So, there is certain stigma on being long. On the other hand, the visual imagery we are getting from models, beauty pageants and the likes that are often held as paragon of female beauty? Long ass women. Like really long for women. So I can see it as a counteract for all those leads that are described as tall models with mile long legs and the likes.
the issue she is describing is that the woman is pretty much always towered over by the man and in a lot of books that's just the physical manifestation of the literal power dynamics between them- e.g. he is tall, rich, her boss, more sexually experienced, more suave, meaner etc. she is short, less rich, employee/ student/ younger by a year at least, inexperienced, more empathic. it makes her the submissive or vulnerable person in that relationship like with an adult-child dynamic. it doesn't even have to be an obvious case of her being brainless. it's just any situation where her height is used as a tool to show how different she is from the man; literaly smaller in comparison. it's great to have representation of all kinds of women in books, including 'vertically challenged' but jenna is describing cases where the height doesn't represent the women themselves, but is symbolic of the problematic imabalnced dynamic. examples of green flags with this kind of thing might be: the woman considering her height/looks outside of the man's relevance e.g. staring at a mirror, needing to have those jeans tailored because they are too long, something everyday, casual. or them having an awkward moment where he has to bend so far down when they kiss, maybe her discussing it with her friends.
Also if ALL the female characters are depicted as short despite the fact that tall women exist. This makes me want to write a story about a short woman and a tall woman who fall in love. And the short one is the one with more experience of the world.
@@dianabimabloff4581 I mean it's mostly women writing this stuff this is just the fantasies most tend to have. Variety is nice but I don't think it's inherently bad
It’s not about the size/height, it’s how they’re depicted as anything but an adult. They don’t even have to be extremely confident, maybe they’re just devoted or hard-working. Maybe they’re maturity shows through care and kindness. Maybe they’re very self-reflecting or thoughtful. Maybe they’re reckless and bold, not mature but brave. Maybe they’re short but like elegant clothes. Maybe they have short hair, maybe it’s long and sleek. Maybe they wear glasses that make them seem more serious and stern than they are. Maybe they like cute things while also being extremely reliable and responsible people. Maybe they have small hands but manage to still be good at playing the piano. All these descriptions manage to not make the small/cute part the only character trait. Height doesn’t define anyone. And just bc someone is short they don’t immediately appear underaged-young. And short people don’t need to be fighters or brutal to appear mature. I hope I managed to show that
It's when the short is mixed with extreme immature. That's the complaint. I wrote an extremely short character years ago because a friend of mine is super tiny and at the time I'd never read a heroine her height. A super broken vampire with no love life who had a male friend who protected her; no romance due to her broken mind. I love that character still to this day. I'm still for short, strong, mature characters. All varieties of people can be heroines. Just not one who is treated as childishly cute love interest (emphasis on childish).
Not a romance series per se, but this made me think of Charlaine Harris's cozy mystery series featuring Aurora Teagarden, if you've ever read any of those books. I wouldn't say that Aurora is completely infantilized or portrayed with no characteristics associated with maturity, but it kind of makes me roll my eyes how her short stature seems to be one of the things (in addition to her big chest) that draws men toward her. That, and this seems to have come to form a big part of her self-image. The first book contains two scenes at significant points in their relationship where she's struggling to reach something and her love interest gets it for her. Also, even in the last book she seems unusually dependent on her mother for a woman in her late thirties, for a reason that never is really explained to us. (Though that doesn't seem to be connected to her shortness in any way that I can see.)
and sadly infantalising is not at all just a problem with tiny women, there is a whole trope about it "born sexy yesterday" that pretty much never factors in hight, purely the perception of childlike innocense and that bs . . .it is super gross. Like you said, there are many ways to make a tiny women not fall into infantilising, but when someone regards and treats their loveinterest like a toddler, is is messed up
@@SingingSealRiana it’s usually the guy in that trope that is more of the issue though. I see nothing wrong with the “born sexy yesterday” character herself. She is brought into a world she doesn’t know much about and still has not become jaded so she’s often very kind and curious. These traits shouldn’t only be associated with kids. It’s just that a lot of people unfortunately grow out of certain qualities because life sorta beats us down. But I’m in my late 20s and if I was suddenly in a new and exciting place, I’d be giddy and yeah, naive because that’s what happens when you’re in an unfamiliar place. It’s unfortunate that the treatment of these characters by other characters (usually the love interest) has ruined the character herself for so many people. Give that character more autonomy and in my opinion you have an incredible, strong, kind hearted character. I could go on and on about this but enough text wall lol.
@@bloop6111 she is not the problem, but that she is created to be sexualised for it is. This power dynamic is literally why teacher student, doctor patient, boss employee relationships as well as having sex with a minor are forbidden! It is not healthy, it is not fair for they are not equel in a relationship. That holding power over the other and molding them into your ideal gets fetishised is messed up and is indeed very strongly related to pedophilia and the potential for abuse is just to high. Inexperience and dependency should not be seen as sexy. One can be curious and exitable without falling into that trope of infantilasation. Someone with more experience can absolutly guide someone with less without being condescending, that is not the problem, it is that going to the extrem that is done there. Describing someone as tiny and adorable and childlike and how damned cute they are when they get angry is condescending and belittling. There is a lack of respect and taking the other serious. With born sexy yesterday the character either does not has the capacity or had not had the time to understand the situation and therfore are not able to make an informed decision if it is something they want. How is someone that is 4 and never new anything about relationships supposed to be able to know what is going on and be able to draw a line? They probably do not even know who they themselfs are?! So yeay, there is nothing "wrong" with her inherently, I do not blame her there (most often it is a her), but that does not make the sexualisation ok, both the guy and the writer that decide to tern her quite understandable inclination to obliviousness into a sick kink we are supposed to find extra hot. I share your opinion that one can do a lot with the main idea that could be great, I even write some, but she has to have a lot of birthdays passing, before I would ever be comfortable with anyone considering them sexy
A lot of these tropes are exactly why I will never write a sex scene. That and I’m asexual. I prefer to stick with a technique that my sister and I call “The curtain effect.” It’s where you describe the lead-up to a sex scene (ex: “She unbuttoned her nightdress and let it drop to the floor.”) but the act takes place off-page.
Exactly! You can leave it up to the reader’s imagination if they so wish, but some people are uncomfortable reading about that in graphic detail and the amount of times people mess it up sometimes it’s just better not to write it at all
Man I appreciate the most when writers do that. Sometimes it feels like you're peeking in someone's private moment or maybe that's just me being weird🤣🤣🤣
Incest being romanticised is absolutely disgusting, and shouldn't even be a thing. I'm also annoyed by the character who gets butthurt over their crush dating someone else, even though they've never expressed their feelings to them, so how are they supposed to know?
Yeah, especially since the butthurt character often treats the love interest cruely/coldly which almost always results in a fight and often very abusive language. How can I root for a character that's literally being a real life Nice Guy™.
i'm fine with the character being butthurt over their crush dating someone else (bc it's a natural reaction) but only if the narrative acknowledges that they're being extremely childish by acting like that but when the mc is butthurt and lashing out at the other person and we're supposed to take their side? yeah... no
Also, what makes it even more gross is the fact that a really, really small amount of incest is between consenting adults who have a healthy relationship. Most incest is molestation.
I also hate incest adjacent romance fiction. Like REALLY? The only person the lead likes is their step/adoptive sibling/parent? There are so many people and the romantic lead has to be technically-not-incest person? I have dropped so many webnovels once it was clear that is where it was going. Shit weirds me out too much.
I think the worst trope was given to us from Twilight. Though twilight has given us a new perspective on werewolves, it also went to an extremely toxic relationship which was the fated mate. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of it. But when you have a full ass 18 y/o adult mate fated to a CGI baby and try to make that seem acceptable because she's part vampire and supposedly will be 18 in 4-5 years it doesn't take away the fact that it's a clear depiction of grooming, p*dophilia, and just all over cringe. Worst part is her mother was only slightly annoyed by it and everyone else seemed to be ok with it. Stephanie Meyer... Just no.... My Lord what the hell.
She really showed her Mormon upbringing to be honest, they have a history of little girls being married off to 30+ year olds. The founder had a literal harem of teen and pre-teen wives and it is SO romanticized by the religion. Child grooming and arranging 18-19 year olds to be married to older members is still really common.
@@RiveroftheWither She grew up in the FLDS? Damn, most modern Mormons have stopped that practice. That just makes it even creepier, that means there is an actual part of her, beyond the fantasy that she writes for shock value, that actually may think this is ok...
@@RiveroftheWither Only Fundamentalist-LDS do that stuff. I'm apart of the true LDS (Mormons), and it is completely against polygamy (and child marriage tf?? 🤢). If you attempt to practice that stuff today you will be excommunicated immediately, and most likely be sent to jail lmao
@@krisl6537 Honestly watching Dominic Noble review and break down those books as well as being a long time viewer of an ex-mormons channel, it's really put a lot of things about that book into perspective. In particular, how heavily romanticized Edward AND Jacobs abusive tendencies are and Bella's months long mental breakdown, hallucinations and suicidal ideation at being dumped by said abusive 117 year old groomer boyfriend... It all reads less like "This is embellished fiction and drama" and more like "This is what I actually think love isq".
I would have been Okay with it if Jacob disappeared from her life until she actually turned 18 years old and preferably longer ( and not just in body age but in actual age.) Don't raise her you dumba**. 🤦
When I was in high school I developed a "situationship" with a guy where we talked for like four months and may have held hands twice. We never told anyone about it because we figured our parents wouldn't approve, thus some months after he spontaneously broke up with me in the school library he took my oblivious identical twin sister to Homecoming. So yeah, maybe don't keep it in the family.
@@auliamate I mean she hates him more than I do. When I told her some time later she couldn't believe he'd even think to ask her after he broke things off with me.
I never read the books but my first exposure to it was the movie where the mother accidentally hangs herself at the end. She totally deserved it and worse for what she put her own children through.
@@maryoriosorio144 Yeah, I read it in high school too, and it was brutal. I went one further though. I kept hoping it would resolve into something good, so I read all three books. The fourth one came out a bit later, so I was over it by then. It was a horrifying reading experience and shaped my attitude toward how much grace I'm willing to give a book from then on.
@@cucamongaphilips Is there a fourth??? O_o I feel your pain since I made the same mistake of reading the initial three. So yeah, lesson learned the hard way T_T
THANKS FOR NUMBER 2!! I’m all for a couple that has a height difference, but when they go overboard with the small person of the relationship, that’s when me, a 5’2 woman with baby hands, gets really fucking pissed off. Also, one of my most hated romantic trope is when they try to redeem a rapist character and have them get with either another person or even worse, THEIR VICTIM!! Why would you do that?! I’d rather the victim kills the rapist, hell, that’s what I’m doing for my antagonist and his abuser!
Same. Takes a bit because she's waiting for her sister to be able to take care of herself (sister is fine, was never a recipient), but she finally has her satisfaction for essentially almost killing her and leaving her in the woods.
While I agree that this trope is very problematic, and mostly poorly written, I do have to question though: Why is it that we as readers consider rapists irredeemable, but we are completely fine when mass murderers are redeemed?
@@sophieandrew4666 It's not that common. The best example I can think of would be Shadow of the Conqueror. Somewhat close to that, but much more popular would be Darth Vader.
@@thomasmann4536 I feel like cases like Darth Vader work because they die immediately afterward, allowing for the author to essentially fence-sit on the issue. They get to have the redemption moment without the audience having to worry about the morality of allowing someone like that to live freely, and without the author having to address what the character actually does after their redemption. Atoning through death is so common in media I feel like it is a trope in and of itself. I guess situations like that are popular because the character gets redemption and 'what they deserve' at the same time.
The "dating the sibling of the ex" trope can work well in some situations, namely ... 1) The breakup with the ex was very amicable (e.g. both were pushed to pursue that relationship by expectations of their parents and both decided to end it because they never really were into each other) 2) There was no breakup, but the ex e.g. died or disappeared (it can come quite natural to bond over the loss of a person you both loved in different ways) 3) The ex did something horrible that aleniated them from both the MC and their own family (in which case the MC and the sibling could bond over their outrage about the betrayal and possibly having to work together to deal with the fallout of what the ex has done) I fully agree though that after a "normal" breakup, especially one with some drama involved, getting together with a sibling of the ex seems pretty awkward.
number two happens in the book series im writing and i technically haven't even decided if they're biological brothers or not but when i heard jenna say that i was like "oh no" but then i was like wait she would literally be the first person to be like "I'm just not your target audience" but i agree with this comment! this trope can 100% be done well!!
Gotta be honest. I adore size differences in romances. I love the idea of one character being big enough to carry their LI like it's nothing. I love the image of this tiny thing being able to hold their own against someone a foot and a half bigger than them when they're in an argumen. I love the idea of one character using their LI as a mattress because they weight nothing to them. Idx if it's someone bellow average height or someone above average height. I don’t care what genders are involved, what sexualities. I. Eat. This. Shit. Up.
The romantic trope that I think needs to go to the trash is when the guy stalks the girl and she's OK with it. Also the guy is abusive because he's trying to "protect" her. She's so clingy just because they are star crossed lovers even though he's toxic. After the break up, she sits around moaping for six whole months and pushes her friends away because she needs romance back in her life to be happy and completed. She doesn't find a hobby or therapy.
OMGGG NUMBER 4!!!! I have sooooo many peeves about this one! I love you! For REASONS.... It's the same where eeeverybody/and/or the love interest, says the character is 'such a great person' or 'so smart and competent' and then show them walking head first into an obvious trap or kick a puppy. Or just nothing really... I don't know what's worst, I just know it aggravates me.
Thanks for this list, Jenna. I always found the entire "Ending up with your Ex's sibling/cousin/other close relative" to be very problematic. There's usually no issue about it in the narrative, but it would be extremely awkward in real life, especially at family get togethers.
@@ruthmellodasilva348 True, but I was rooting for Damon because Stefan was mopey/ whiny. (I've only read books 1-4, because they are what came out originally when I was 15. The rest came later when I was in my 30s. No thank you.)
@@Xandycane The autor made a bad choice of couple since the beginning. I don't read the books, but in the series the two brothers make a awkward cofession about the girlfriend exchanges, what made them fall apart for a while. Very strange family meetings ensued from them on 🤣😂😂
@@ruthmellodasilva348 Yeah, I tried to watch the show but it was so out of left field it was hard to watch. That awkward conversation wasn't the same in the book. I saw enough to be all, WAIT... no...
I have two characters where the goal is to have them end up together (eventually married and have twins). I got a bit worried when she mentioned 4ft 8in women because the female is exactly that height. I guess the main problem with that troupe is making the women too childlike and not adult enough, which I'm hopefully avoiding. Although to be fair both characters are on the shorter side for their race since the male is a 5ft 8in elf and she's a half-elf. Idk, I hope everything works out in the end. The male is currently coming to terms with his fear of being with her since he's a lycanthrope.
A friend of mine recently made out with a guy who later turned out to be her ex's older brother. But they broke up 4 years ago and she'd never met his brother, or seen a picture. They do have a third brother so she might just go for the whole set. She never slept with any of them though.
Then what's the problem? They are different individuals with different personalities - believe me, if someone broke up with me because we're not right for each other, I couldn't possibly say, 'Well, now you know my sister isn't right for you either without ever dating her' - because we have COMPLETELY different personalities! It's not all about sex and physicality - if you find one person doesn't suit you and another does, because they are separate and unique individuals, the fact that they happen to be related is frankly a non-issue. But by the laws of probability it's highly unlikely to happen. I don't understand people who find it 'awkward' to meet their exes. If you both accepted you don't love each other, how is it awkward to see them with anyone else any more than seeing a stranger with anyone else, including your sibling? It's all this oversexualization of relationships that makes the idea of family relations (or height) so problematic for people.
LMAOOOO roasting ACOTAR was my favorite part in this 😂Thanks for the book cover website too! I'm a self published author who's been looking for something like this!
I hate lazy writing where the couple gets together and love each other for.. uh... I'm sure there was meant to be a reason-reason. Like, just let the characters talk, laugh together, get angry at each other, make up and be friends again, get a little embarrassed, laugh, be cute... Let them be people who get to know each other and do things together. Not just. "Oh, he's/she's pretty, let's bang. We're in looove." Yeah, sure buddy.
Thank you! I can't stand the stepbrother and sister trope, just 🤮. I don't care how much you jazz it up they are still siblings. I also can't stand, and I don't know if you have covered this one, but the bully-to-lovers trope. I was bullied although out school and never thought the bully was cute. Most of the time they were asses.
Agreed 100%. And it's worse when the bullying continues, with the other person suffering periodic amnesia. Real Romance should be something the partners enjoy :)
They're not siblings. It's the biological connection that is problematic because it carries health risk. Living in the same house just makes you housemates. Pretty sure no one has a problem with dating a housemate or someone you went to boarding school (again, lived under the same roof) with. Plenty of friends are closer than real-life siblings and that doesn't impact whether they can fall in love. The only issue is incest, which requires and actual biological relationship. I find it highly UNLIKELY most stepsiblings would rather date each other than get a new relationship in their lives, but there's nothing morally problematic about two completely unrelated individuals who know each other really well thinking they probably have a better shot at a good relationship than a pair of complete strangers.
@@cmm5542 The biological connection actually carries very little risk(over one generation, it's very much a compounding issue) and can be tested for. I've never understood the hate for wholesome (pseudo-)incest relationships. You don't have to like it obviously, but treating it like it's evil doesn't really make sense to me.
You know, I was kind of having One Of Those Days today, and hearing you have a go at some horrible romance tropes was exactly what I needed to get a good laugh and feel a little better. Thanks for being you and making these videos. #7 is the biggest offender on the list, just because my absolute biggest literary pet peeve is "because reasons." We fell in love... because reasons. We can't be together... because reasons. The hero wants a thing... because reasons. The villain wants the hero NOT to have that thing... because... you guessed it... reasons. #9 is also one I hate. I am still not over having read the words "he pumped her cherry pie full of his thick, sweet ball batter" like a decade ago on DeviantArt. I also once heard a grown adult man refer to a penis as "the marital instrument." I will forever be worse for both of those things. Icky euphemisms turn sexy time into icky time. No one wants to read about icky time.
They used to use fancy terms in the romance industry back in the 90s and early 2000's. All my old historical romance novels especially the recency period one's use phrases like velvet steel length or something similar so I don't really find issue still seeing those types of phrases in stuff in reading now. that was all romance back then. 😂
@@Xandycane oh absolutely and sometimes if I do see the word dick in a graphic romance scene and not in an erotica, it kinda throws me off a little. In my own writings I do prefer to use the more poetic flow of words such as velvety steel type phrases, heh.
I remember losing interest in a romance novel that had the two lovers meet by having the man kidnap the woman and her adopted sister and hold them for ransom in the Australian outback or something like that. Said kidnapped woman treated the ordeal like some kind of romantic fantasy. Haven't touched that book since.
@@DrGregoryHouseIT The author wrote decent books before that one. I don't know why she decided that a kidnapping was a good way to start off that romance. The worst part is that she usually writes religious romance novels.
As a 4 foot 11 person who genuinely looks like a child even in my 20's it does kinda weird me out when people write characters who look like me but are infantilzed. Not great vibes from it
THANK YOU for point #4!!! I am so sick of this shift within the romance genre to far more resemble erotica, with very little actual romance. 😔 It's all about being 'spicy,' but what is spice without romantic tension?
😂 the number one trope, I have a story about. But! The woman didn’t know her ex had a brother because she didn’t get a chance to meet the family before they broke up. And he’s not the type to have family photos hanging up
Hi Jenna! I love your channel :3 Could you do a video sometime about the best ways to introduce two characters in various relationships? (Love interests, best friends, rivals, enemies, ect?) ❤️ Love you!
Although I agree with your points about dating multiple people in the same family irl, I can see how it would make a lot of good drama for a story, but I guess it depends on how it was written
Hands down my least favorite is “I love you” because the author dictates I do. One of my favorite series had two romantic sub plots that did this and it was really hard to read. I skimmed these sections. I like a good slow burn where in a deep conversation or emotional moment you catch a spark and you the reader want to see them together, not the story telling you that you should
Currently writing a book whereby the woman was extremely hesitant to verbalize her attraction for her male best friend... until his girlfriend was out of the picture. Guess that gives me a pass on #6 trope
I dunno, getting mad at the “ex’s brother” or “incest” subgenres is like getting mad at the “kidnapped by pirates/vikings/elves/aliens/whatever” subgenre. Yeah, it’s fucked up in real life, but in fiction it’s largely harmless and people enjoy it largely because of its transgressive nature.
The worst by far, for me, is barely legal girls with men that are hundreds of years older than them. Like, I can barely see someone in their early twenties with someone who is thirty or older... but I’m supposed to root for this ancient ab*sive ruler gr**ming this incredibly vulnerable young girl? Uhm. Okay. Twilight started it, but Sarah J. Maas cranked it all the way up. Why do so many female writers think this shit is sexy?? Which older man took advantage of them and made them think that this is love?? I’m so deeply disturbed by this trend like wtf 😭
PSA: don't read shit you don't like, you won't like it. It doesn't have to be graphic, in fact it doesn't need to exist at all. Even BETTER you don't have to read it! You're a grown-ass person YOU decide what you read.
As someone who experienced Number 1 in real life I can tell. It sucks. I don't know if I my ex wanted to get petty revenge oon me or what, but she hooked up with my brother. And what's even funnier, it was actually my brother who introduced me to her. When I found out I was shocked, but I wasn't angry. I was just disgusted.
I am happy to say I haven't read 10 so far. I hope I forever avoid that trend because eeew. And if someone is going to be upset via House of Dragons, they need to remember that George R.R .Martin literally wrote in that incest leads to children suffering from insanity. He was condemning it, not praising it.
Oh my. So many people just felt called out and kink-shamed... While many of these tropes are not my cup of tea, I don't think I would tell anyone not to write them (aside from, "They are in love for...reasons," and, "They can't be together for...reasons," and, "He pounded her like a jackhammer for two hours straight... At which point, she called for an ambulance and the police after knocking him out with the lamp."). Especially when there seems to be a market for them. "Ten Romance Tropes I Personally Can't Stand" might be a better title :)
#4 happens in a lot of media (especially TV and film, where lazy writing feels like it's getting more common), even if the story is not romance focused... and it is *painful*, even for people like me who are often not there for the romance, but would still like it to *make sense* when it happens.
I 100% agree with all of this. And yeah, it’s so frustrating when two characters just hook up and then confess love without ever actually having had any kind of deep conversation ever and without the author having ever actually shown them FALLING in love. The jump from hookups to love confessions is so annoying. “I’m in love with them!” ARE you though? You don’t actually know them! Yeah…
Listening to you rant Jenna makes my day. It helps me unload my cluttered up mind so that way I can shut up and write the book LOL. All your content his inspiring and extremely helpful. Thanks 👍
One not mentioned here that just makes my eyes roll is the enemies to lovers trope. Alot of novels I have read if you two characters are unreasonably hostile to one another early on there is often a moment of "here we go again" and they end up in bed later.
this list remind me of my absolute MOST hated romance trope: adopted siblings ending up together like it's "okay" because they're not related by blood??? Yet they were raised like siblings...GROSS JUST GROSS Weirdos who write this of course NEVER know what being in a non-bio family is actually like, not only disgusting but honestly so othering and hateful towards adopted kids - it shows that you don't consider or accept them as "real" family members like in your real, actual life - bc if you did you'd never in a million years choose to write about it.
Lol the 4'8" comment caught me so off guard. I'm in my mid 20s at this point and very secure with my height, and my lived experience from it. I agree with you when it comes to people over utilizing height as a method to infantilize women in media. Speaking from my personal experience, it forsure is a reflection on how the world interacts with smaller women.
The lazy writing trope hit me when I read a romance in my coffee shop library. I didn’t quite know why I didn’t like it. We were in their heads, being told how attracted each was to the other, but without any deep conversations, or seeing a real relationship develop. Telling and not showing is really horrible.
I think it's interesting how often we cite these bad female tropes as largely created by male writers, but romance is overwhelmingly female dominated. It's more often female writers who, unfortunately, write these bad female AND male tropes. Glistening pecs and velvet steel on a "purely male" figure is just as bad a prissy mary sue with jugs the size of Texas and an impossible libido. Nearly every spicy romance book I've read with weird dumbing down and sexualization of the female lead have all been written by women.
Not arguing (much). But have you really checked? I think huge amount of male romance writers write under female sounding pseudonyms. But still, yes, I agree on the principle.
The first one makes me think of how at my parents wedding there was a woman who had been married to one of my dad's cousins and then married another one of his cousins and he had to have them separated at the wedding with a table of blackbelts in between so that no flights broke out
aha yes, the ''I love you' trope. Been seeing this a lot on social media. People randomly add you and straight away say they love you and declare thier undying love for you...waffle out an essay of random words. It is so weird.
There's a movie called Rumor Has It. Basically, the premise is a woman learns her mother and grandmother might be the inspiration for The Graduate. In the end, the main character, Beau Burroughs nails the mother, grandmother, and several decades later, the granddaughter. It was very weird and I will never get that 90 minutes of my life back.
Moment I heard synchronized sploosh... I thought I heard synchronized swim lolol. 🏊♂️. I'm like... is that a new position? Lol. Had 2 re watch that part 😆
4:02 again, what you think is weird does not make it something bad. I've HAD situations where I sat at a table with people I'd made out with and wasn't involved with anymore, it wasn't weird.
Jenna i know this is a weird question but could you do a video on tips for writting episodic stories. Im currently writting season 1 of my story and im 7 episode in. Any advice would be good on style, design, plotting a episodic story.
That mentality is a big yikes considering a continent in the other side of the world are filled with shorter women. Source: I am Asian, my families are too and we are small as heck. Almost borderline xenophobic to think our women cannot be thought of cute just because the Anglos are taller 😔
Any chance of doing a takedown of the Bully Romance trope, where the story revolves around one person constantly abusing and bullying the other? That one really needs your special kind of attention :)
Well, in some countries, marrying your cousin is normal and isn't considered as incest. I wonder what the readers would think if they read stories from these countries about cousins' love 😅
It’s not the height that’s the problem, it’s the way supposedly adult characters are treated as children. There’s nothing wrong with writing a short love interest; the problem comes when this character who’s meant to be a sexually attractive adult is infantilized. The problem is when the narrative-or worse, the other love interest-drools over how tiny and childlike the short character is. The problem is when our small, dainty protagonist can’t do anything on their own and always needs help from their big, strong love interest. Adults who have stereotypically childish traits-small stature, “baby face,” naivety, interests in things designed for a younger demographic, and so on exist, and there’s nothing wrong with representing them in fiction, but they are adults, and should be treated as such. Infantilizing an adult character-especially when, as is the case with most romance protagonists, you’re also sexualizing them-comes across as really creepy.
Number 5 is something I've experienced (the first time I had sex with the second partner I ever had). I acknowledge that it's rare, but it is definitely a thing. I've also written Number 5 in a scene. That story took place in a fantasy setting where the characters had a magical empathic link - so one having an orgasm caused the other to have one along with them. It would've taken time and practice for them to NOT orgasm simultaneously.
I saw a movie about a woman who is about to get married, and gets seduced by another man right before the wedding. The movie is about how her mother and grandmother did the exact same thing with the exact same man. 🤮 I also hate books where two grown ass adults take the entire plot to get to the point, which is why in my book I'm having my protagonists get together closer to the beginning, and the romance is going to be about the relationship they build throughout their adventures together.
Yea tbh I like these videos but I'm always just double tapping the screen until the 3 minute mark because I know she's not getting to the point of the video before that
4:41 this is why word choice is SOOOOO important. In the book I’m writing rn the LI is described as short upon first meeting not to infantalizer her but to emphasize how doll like she looks (its a kinda persona she puts up to hide the real her). Aside from the doll analogy there isn’t any focus on her height, rather any mention is more metaphorical and more details go into the rest of her features to emphasize how seemingly “perfect” and adorable she looks. I think what tends to fall short with this trope is either purposeful infantalization (ew) or being so unaware of how the verbiage makes a character look bc if the only metaphors you can use to describe someone are childlike 😰
I get what you're saying about the size of females in books. But us size difference kink peeps exist 😄 it's not about infantalising females (or males). It's a submissive thing, at least as I see it. It definitely shouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is, however. Unless..... there's a lot of people with size difference kinks that don't know they have it 😂
I feel that if there is no outside force stopping two characters in love being together, at least make is a fantasy novel where they are different humanoid species and one feels uncomfortable and embarrassed about if it is morally okay because they haven't got the memo from the author that they're both mostly human. Like a mermaid and a human, or a minotaur and a bird-person.
I mean ... I just don't want the s3x scenes to be around, period. Hence, why I don't read romance (when it's not the sub-genre). There's about a million more things to being in love than lust. *Sighs* . If I want romance, anime and Asian dramas are my go to.
My number 11, she knew he loved her because he wanted to knock her up. Or she knew the pack of werewolves loved her because they as a unit wanted to knock her up
My MOST HATED trope is unnecessary romance which can be cut and nothing changes in the story and I also hate frequent "adaptation expansion" which adds unnecessary love interest into the story like a character who was in like one chapter in the book in the movie adaptation or in books sequel becomes protagonists wife or girlfriend.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m gonna say no term for male genetalia can ever beat “man carrot”. Written for a god awfully hilarious and infamous twilight fan fiction.
...I'm sorry, *'man carrot'?!*
@@warriormaiden9829 Yup.
a potato or even a sweet potato would’ve been better than a CARROT 😭😭
I read a story with a guy describing a woman's nipples as "hard and still like turtles"
LMAO
My least favorite trope will always be "wanting someone being treated as loving someone" where a character acts like someone is theirs because of whatever messed up entitled reason they come up with and then keep interfering in that person's life and trying to wear them down until they finally fall for them because the plot says so, usually getting in the way of a possible healthy relationship they might be having.
I really wish more people would learn to separate being romantic from being possessive.
Yes! This!
So, Joe from You 😆
Also, someone(usually a man) obsessing over someone who is clearly not interested and barely notices his existence. I feel like this is more common in songs, but it's still so gross to romanticise it. It's not romantic, it's creepy as hell.
Definitely
That is terrifying
My girlfriend told me she wanted a fairytale wedding so I abandoned her in a forest and married her stepsister.
🤣😭😭😭😭
😂😂
🤣🤣🤣
Lol
Ask her to kissing a frog. If it became male human she was lucky
I don't think there's any inherent issue with writing female characters who are "vertically challenged". That on it's own doesn't have unfortunate implications and it's honestly kind of mean to even imply it. It only becomes an issue if the person in question is *also* depicted as innocent and naive (women with experience? lol, can't have that) and a general doormat (how could our masculine hunk love someone with a brain?), because at that point you give off child vibes even if she's a 1000 year old dragon.
Truth. I'm short af. I'm a pervert savage
Yeah, I can understand wanting to have short leads in romance as well. There is this bit weird situation going with female height: On the other hand, woman is "not supposed" to be longer than her partner. So, there is certain stigma on being long. On the other hand, the visual imagery we are getting from models, beauty pageants and the likes that are often held as paragon of female beauty? Long ass women. Like really long for women.
So I can see it as a counteract for all those leads that are described as tall models with mile long legs and the likes.
the issue she is describing is that the woman is pretty much always towered over by the man and in a lot of books that's just the physical manifestation of the literal power dynamics between them- e.g. he is tall, rich, her boss, more sexually experienced, more suave, meaner etc. she is short, less rich, employee/ student/ younger by a year at least, inexperienced, more empathic. it makes her the submissive or vulnerable person in that relationship like with an adult-child dynamic.
it doesn't even have to be an obvious case of her being brainless. it's just any situation where her height is used as a tool to show how different she is from the man; literaly smaller in comparison.
it's great to have representation of all kinds of women in books, including 'vertically challenged' but jenna is describing cases where the height doesn't represent the women themselves, but is symbolic of the problematic imabalnced dynamic.
examples of green flags with this kind of thing might be: the woman considering her height/looks outside of the man's relevance e.g. staring at a mirror, needing to have those jeans tailored because they are too long, something everyday, casual. or them having an awkward moment where he has to bend so far down when they kiss, maybe her discussing it with her friends.
Also if ALL the female characters are depicted as short despite the fact that tall women exist.
This makes me want to write a story about a short woman and a tall woman who fall in love. And the short one is the one with more experience of the world.
@@dianabimabloff4581 I mean it's mostly women writing this stuff this is just the fantasies most tend to have. Variety is nice but I don't think it's inherently bad
“You get to sit across the table from your sister in law and think to yourself;
‘I’ve been inside you.’” - Jenna Moreci, 2022
Honestly, that gives you power 😅
"Hopping from dick to dick until you get your happy ending."
It’s not about the size/height, it’s how they’re depicted as anything but an adult. They don’t even have to be extremely confident, maybe they’re just devoted or hard-working. Maybe they’re maturity shows through care and kindness. Maybe they’re very self-reflecting or thoughtful. Maybe they’re reckless and bold, not mature but brave. Maybe they’re short but like elegant clothes. Maybe they have short hair, maybe it’s long and sleek. Maybe they wear glasses that make them seem more serious and stern than they are. Maybe they like cute things while also being extremely reliable and responsible people. Maybe they have small hands but manage to still be good at playing the piano.
All these descriptions manage to not make the small/cute part the only character trait. Height doesn’t define anyone. And just bc someone is short they don’t immediately appear underaged-young. And short people don’t need to be fighters or brutal to appear mature. I hope I managed to show that
It's when the short is mixed with extreme immature. That's the complaint.
I wrote an extremely short character years ago because a friend of mine is super tiny and at the time I'd never read a heroine her height. A super broken vampire with no love life who had a male friend who protected her; no romance due to her broken mind. I love that character still to this day.
I'm still for short, strong, mature characters. All varieties of people can be heroines. Just not one who is treated as childishly cute love interest (emphasis on childish).
Not a romance series per se, but this made me think of Charlaine Harris's cozy mystery series featuring Aurora Teagarden, if you've ever read any of those books.
I wouldn't say that Aurora is completely infantilized or portrayed with no characteristics associated with maturity, but it kind of makes me roll my eyes how her short stature seems to be one of the things (in addition to her big chest) that draws men toward her. That, and this seems to have come to form a big part of her self-image. The first book contains two scenes at significant points in their relationship where she's struggling to reach something and her love interest gets it for her.
Also, even in the last book she seems unusually dependent on her mother for a woman in her late thirties, for a reason that never is really explained to us. (Though that doesn't seem to be connected to her shortness in any way that I can see.)
and sadly infantalising is not at all just a problem with tiny women, there is a whole trope about it "born sexy yesterday" that pretty much never factors in hight, purely the perception of childlike innocense and that bs . . .it is super gross. Like you said, there are many ways to make a tiny women not fall into infantilising, but when someone regards and treats their loveinterest like a toddler, is is messed up
@@SingingSealRiana it’s usually the guy in that trope that is more of the issue though. I see nothing wrong with the “born sexy yesterday” character herself. She is brought into a world she doesn’t know much about and still has not become jaded so she’s often very kind and curious. These traits shouldn’t only be associated with kids. It’s just that a lot of people unfortunately grow out of certain qualities because life sorta beats us down. But I’m in my late 20s and if I was suddenly in a new and exciting place, I’d be giddy and yeah, naive because that’s what happens when you’re in an unfamiliar place. It’s unfortunate that the treatment of these characters by other characters (usually the love interest) has ruined the character herself for so many people. Give that character more autonomy and in my opinion you have an incredible, strong, kind hearted character. I could go on and on about this but enough text wall lol.
@@bloop6111 she is not the problem, but that she is created to be sexualised for it is. This power dynamic is literally why teacher student, doctor patient, boss employee relationships as well as having sex with a minor are forbidden! It is not healthy, it is not fair for they are not equel in a relationship. That holding power over the other and molding them into your ideal gets fetishised is messed up and is indeed very strongly related to pedophilia and the potential for abuse is just to high.
Inexperience and dependency should not be seen as sexy.
One can be curious and exitable without falling into that trope of infantilasation. Someone with more experience can absolutly guide someone with less without being condescending, that is not the problem, it is that going to the extrem that is done there.
Describing someone as tiny and adorable and childlike and how damned cute they are when they get angry is condescending and belittling. There is a lack of respect and taking the other serious.
With born sexy yesterday the character either does not has the capacity or had not had the time to understand the situation and therfore are not able to make an informed decision if it is something they want. How is someone that is 4 and never new anything about relationships supposed to be able to know what is going on and be able to draw a line? They probably do not even know who they themselfs are?!
So yeay, there is nothing "wrong" with her inherently, I do not blame her there (most often it is a her), but that does not make the sexualisation ok, both the guy and the writer that decide to tern her quite understandable inclination to obliviousness into a sick kink we are supposed to find extra hot.
I share your opinion that one can do a lot with the main idea that could be great, I even write some, but she has to have a lot of birthdays passing, before I would ever be comfortable with anyone considering them sexy
A lot of these tropes are exactly why I will never write a sex scene. That and I’m asexual. I prefer to stick with a technique that my sister and I call “The curtain effect.” It’s where you describe the lead-up to a sex scene (ex: “She unbuttoned her nightdress and let it drop to the floor.”) but the act takes place off-page.
Exactly! You can leave it up to the reader’s imagination if they so wish, but some people are uncomfortable reading about that in graphic detail and the amount of times people mess it up sometimes it’s just better not to write it at all
Man I appreciate the most when writers do that. Sometimes it feels like you're peeking in someone's private moment or maybe that's just me being weird🤣🤣🤣
Usually it’s referred to as a fade to black
Honestly, that's perfectly fine. A lot of sex scenes are just so... Bad. I can fill in the blanks.
@@entitledbobcat The term I used was more of a fun, semi-inside joke between me and my sister. Thanks for introducing me to the proper term.
Incest being romanticised is absolutely disgusting, and shouldn't even be a thing. I'm also annoyed by the character who gets butthurt over their crush dating someone else, even though they've never expressed their feelings to them, so how are they supposed to know?
Yeah, especially since the butthurt character often treats the love interest cruely/coldly which almost always results in a fight and often very abusive language. How can I root for a character that's literally being a real life Nice Guy™.
i'm fine with the character being butthurt over their crush dating someone else (bc it's a natural reaction) but only if the narrative acknowledges that they're being extremely childish by acting like that
but when the mc is butthurt and lashing out at the other person and we're supposed to take their side? yeah... no
Also, what makes it even more gross is the fact that a really, really small amount of incest is between consenting adults who have a healthy relationship. Most incest is molestation.
@@creeperdoge7573 Or grooming, which is just as bad. Absolutely vile stuff 100% agreed.
I also hate incest adjacent romance fiction. Like REALLY? The only person the lead likes is their step/adoptive sibling/parent? There are so many people and the romantic lead has to be technically-not-incest person? I have dropped so many webnovels once it was clear that is where it was going. Shit weirds me out too much.
I think the worst trope was given to us from Twilight. Though twilight has given us a new perspective on werewolves, it also went to an extremely toxic relationship which was the fated mate. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of it. But when you have a full ass 18 y/o adult mate fated to a CGI baby and try to make that seem acceptable because she's part vampire and supposedly will be 18 in 4-5 years it doesn't take away the fact that it's a clear depiction of grooming, p*dophilia, and just all over cringe. Worst part is her mother was only slightly annoyed by it and everyone else seemed to be ok with it. Stephanie Meyer... Just no.... My Lord what the hell.
She really showed her Mormon upbringing to be honest, they have a history of little girls being married off to 30+ year olds. The founder had a literal harem of teen and pre-teen wives and it is SO romanticized by the religion. Child grooming and arranging 18-19 year olds to be married to older members is still really common.
@@RiveroftheWither She grew up in the FLDS? Damn, most modern Mormons have stopped that practice. That just makes it even creepier, that means there is an actual part of her, beyond the fantasy that she writes for shock value, that actually may think this is ok...
@@RiveroftheWither Only Fundamentalist-LDS do that stuff. I'm apart of the true LDS (Mormons), and it is completely against polygamy (and child marriage tf?? 🤢). If you attempt to practice that stuff today you will be excommunicated immediately, and most likely be sent to jail lmao
@@krisl6537 Honestly watching Dominic Noble review and break down those books as well as being a long time viewer of an ex-mormons channel, it's really put a lot of things about that book into perspective. In particular, how heavily romanticized Edward AND Jacobs abusive tendencies are and Bella's months long mental breakdown, hallucinations and suicidal ideation at being dumped by said abusive 117 year old groomer boyfriend... It all reads less like "This is embellished fiction and drama" and more like "This is what I actually think love isq".
I would have been Okay with it if Jacob disappeared from her life until she actually turned 18 years old and preferably longer ( and not just in body age but in actual age.) Don't raise her you dumba**. 🤦
When I was in high school I developed a "situationship" with a guy where we talked for like four months and may have held hands twice. We never told anyone about it because we figured our parents wouldn't approve, thus some months after he spontaneously broke up with me in the school library he took my oblivious identical twin sister to Homecoming. So yeah, maybe don't keep it in the family.
i hope your sister avenged you
@@auliamate I mean she hates him more than I do. When I told her some time later she couldn't believe he'd even think to ask her after he broke things off with me.
I like the word situationship. It does kinda sum things like that up
That's a book I would read
12:03 Some people really read Flowers in the Attic and thought it was a love story instead of a horrific tale of abuse, trauma, and insanity.
I never read the books but my first exposure to it was the movie where the mother accidentally hangs herself at the end.
She totally deserved it and worse for what she put her own children through.
OMG! I read it when I was in high school. I'm 39 now and could never get over the trauma it caused me- >.
I only watched the movie and I still don't understand how that could be portrayed as romantic in any way whatsoever
@@maryoriosorio144 Yeah, I read it in high school too, and it was brutal. I went one further though. I kept hoping it would resolve into something good, so I read all three books. The fourth one came out a bit later, so I was over it by then. It was a horrifying reading experience and shaped my attitude toward how much grace I'm willing to give a book from then on.
@@cucamongaphilips Is there a fourth??? O_o
I feel your pain since I made the same mistake of reading the initial three. So yeah, lesson learned the hard way T_T
"She's very angry but that's okay because she's so cute when she's mad" WHO SAYS THAT ???
Fan fiction authors sadly.
Tbh that description reminds me so much of Asaika Taiga from Toradora
me. my gf can be very adorable when mad.
narcissists.
Someone who's never dated my ex.
THANKS FOR NUMBER 2!! I’m all for a couple that has a height difference, but when they go overboard with the small person of the relationship, that’s when me, a 5’2 woman with baby hands, gets really fucking pissed off.
Also, one of my most hated romantic trope is when they try to redeem a rapist character and have them get with either another person or even worse, THEIR VICTIM!! Why would you do that?! I’d rather the victim kills the rapist, hell, that’s what I’m doing for my antagonist and his abuser!
Same. Takes a bit because she's waiting for her sister to be able to take care of herself (sister is fine, was never a recipient), but she finally has her satisfaction for essentially almost killing her and leaving her in the woods.
While I agree that this trope is very problematic, and mostly poorly written, I do have to question though: Why is it that we as readers consider rapists irredeemable, but we are completely fine when mass murderers are redeemed?
@@thomasmann4536 I’ve literally never seen mass murderers get redeemed, so…I can’t really answer that.
@@sophieandrew4666 It's not that common. The best example I can think of would be Shadow of the Conqueror. Somewhat close to that, but much more popular would be Darth Vader.
@@thomasmann4536 I feel like cases like Darth Vader work because they die immediately afterward, allowing for the author to essentially fence-sit on the issue. They get to have the redemption moment without the audience having to worry about the morality of allowing someone like that to live freely, and without the author having to address what the character actually does after their redemption. Atoning through death is so common in media I feel like it is a trope in and of itself. I guess situations like that are popular because the character gets redemption and 'what they deserve' at the same time.
The "dating the sibling of the ex" trope can work well in some situations, namely ...
1) The breakup with the ex was very amicable (e.g. both were pushed to pursue that relationship by expectations of their parents and both decided to end it because they never really were into each other)
2) There was no breakup, but the ex e.g. died or disappeared (it can come quite natural to bond over the loss of a person you both loved in different ways)
3) The ex did something horrible that aleniated them from both the MC and their own family (in which case the MC and the sibling could bond over their outrage about the betrayal and possibly having to work together to deal with the fallout of what the ex has done)
I fully agree though that after a "normal" breakup, especially one with some drama involved, getting together with a sibling of the ex seems pretty awkward.
number two happens in the book series im writing and i technically haven't even decided if they're biological brothers or not but when i heard jenna say that i was like "oh no" but then i was like wait she would literally be the first person to be like "I'm just not your target audience" but i agree with this comment! this trope can 100% be done well!!
As a struggling writer, books like ACOTAR series showing toxic characters and relationships with huge fandoms is very discouraging
I hear ya, and I get it. But that's even more reason to write the story you're passionate about. Clearly readers need it
@@JennaMoreci dawwww thank you!
But Jenna, you forgot the "dating my ex-boyfriend's dad" trope. Shudder
🤢🤮
Oh let people write fucked up stuff. Nobody is making you read these things guys.
Is that a thing?!?!
@@katara2021 you say that like stuff like this always has a warning up from but it doesn't and then suddenly you know about the poop knife
@@mirjanbouma Poop...knife??? Actually, no don't tell me
Gotta be honest. I adore size differences in romances. I love the idea of one character being big enough to carry their LI like it's nothing. I love the image of this tiny thing being able to hold their own against someone a foot and a half bigger than them when they're in an argumen. I love the idea of one character using their LI as a mattress because they weight nothing to them. Idx if it's someone bellow average height or someone above average height. I don’t care what genders are involved, what sexualities. I. Eat. This. Shit. Up.
I don't see how that would be an issue, I'm 5'3 but sometimes I meet fully grown women who are a head shorter than me, we
shorties need love too
@@majlordag1889
Right? I mean I get what she's saying but....idk.
@@kayleighbrown459 I think it's the thing "Am I infantile and men who like me are Pea does or am I just small and skinny and exist?"
@@majlordag1889
Stinks of tall people privilege if you ask me.
LMAO, as someone who's 4'10", people always think I'm younger than I actually am since I've got a baby face along with my short stature!
The romantic trope that I think needs to go to the trash is when the guy stalks the girl and she's OK with it. Also the guy is abusive because he's trying to "protect" her. She's so clingy just because they are star crossed lovers even though he's toxic. After the break up, she sits around moaping for six whole months and pushes her friends away because she needs romance back in her life to be happy and completed. She doesn't find a hobby or therapy.
OMGGG NUMBER 4!!!!
I have sooooo many peeves about this one! I love you! For REASONS.... It's the same where eeeverybody/and/or the love interest, says the character is 'such a great person' or 'so smart and competent' and then show them walking head first into an obvious trap or kick a puppy. Or just nothing really... I don't know what's worst, I just know it aggravates me.
LOLOL relatable
Quite agree on this one!
Thanks for this list, Jenna. I always found the entire "Ending up with your Ex's sibling/cousin/other close relative" to be very problematic. There's usually no issue about it in the narrative, but it would be extremely awkward in real life, especially at family get togethers.
Vampire Diaries🧐🤣🤣🤣
@@ruthmellodasilva348 True, but I was rooting for Damon because Stefan was mopey/ whiny. (I've only read books 1-4, because they are what came out originally when I was 15. The rest came later when I was in my 30s. No thank you.)
@@Xandycane The autor made a bad choice of couple since the beginning. I don't read the books, but in the series the two brothers make a awkward cofession about the girlfriend exchanges, what made them fall apart for a while. Very strange family meetings ensued from them on 🤣😂😂
@@ruthmellodasilva348 Yeah, I tried to watch the show but it was so out of left field it was hard to watch. That awkward conversation wasn't the same in the book. I saw enough to be all, WAIT... no...
**cough** little women **cough**
My girl called out Ali Hazelwood, Colleen Hoover, and Sarah J. Maas in one video without dropping a single name! 😂
I have two characters where the goal is to have them end up together (eventually married and have twins). I got a bit worried when she mentioned 4ft 8in women because the female is exactly that height. I guess the main problem with that troupe is making the women too childlike and not adult enough, which I'm hopefully avoiding. Although to be fair both characters are on the shorter side for their race since the male is a 5ft 8in elf and she's a half-elf. Idk, I hope everything works out in the end. The male is currently coming to terms with his fear of being with her since he's a lycanthrope.
If you’re writing fantasy and she behaves as a grown woman, I see no issue.
Just write whatever you want bro
As a short woman, just don’t write her or portray her like a child and you should be fine.
"Six pumps of coital mediocrity." OMG that was priceless I legit burst out laughing on the train when I heard that!
Abuse and any form of incest. I’ve spent too much time on the Encanto fandom
Excuse me but what the fuck-
The fact that there's Incanto abusive incest fanfic makes me want to Kermit big oof.
Oh no! The creepy Frozen fans are multiplying!
@@avalasialove The Elsanna shippers have come back with a vengeance...
It’s bound to happen when the only relevant non related character is Maluma.
A friend of mine recently made out with a guy who later turned out to be her ex's older brother. But they broke up 4 years ago and she'd never met his brother, or seen a picture. They do have a third brother so she might just go for the whole set.
She never slept with any of them though.
Then what's the problem? They are different individuals with different personalities - believe me, if someone broke up with me because we're not right for each other, I couldn't possibly say, 'Well, now you know my sister isn't right for you either without ever dating her' - because we have COMPLETELY different personalities! It's not all about sex and physicality - if you find one person doesn't suit you and another does, because they are separate and unique individuals, the fact that they happen to be related is frankly a non-issue. But by the laws of probability it's highly unlikely to happen.
I don't understand people who find it 'awkward' to meet their exes. If you both accepted you don't love each other, how is it awkward to see them with anyone else any more than seeing a stranger with anyone else, including your sibling?
It's all this oversexualization of relationships that makes the idea of family relations (or height) so problematic for people.
LMAOOOO roasting ACOTAR was my favorite part in this 😂Thanks for the book cover website too! I'm a self published author who's been looking for something like this!
I actually laughed out loud when she threw in that SJM shade.
yess and TOG too lmfaoo
I hate lazy writing where the couple gets together and love each other for.. uh... I'm sure there was meant to be a reason-reason. Like, just let the characters talk, laugh together, get angry at each other, make up and be friends again, get a little embarrassed, laugh, be cute... Let them be people who get to know each other and do things together. Not just. "Oh, he's/she's pretty, let's bang. We're in looove." Yeah, sure buddy.
Exactly!!! I need history and evolution!
Julia Quinn does this.
Thank you! I can't stand the stepbrother and sister trope, just 🤮. I don't care how much you jazz it up they are still siblings. I also can't stand, and I don't know if you have covered this one, but the bully-to-lovers trope. I was bullied although out school and never thought the bully was cute. Most of the time they were asses.
Agreed 100%. And it's worse when the bullying continues, with the other person suffering periodic amnesia. Real Romance should be something the partners enjoy :)
They're not siblings. It's the biological connection that is problematic because it carries health risk. Living in the same house just makes you housemates. Pretty sure no one has a problem with dating a housemate or someone you went to boarding school (again, lived under the same roof) with. Plenty of friends are closer than real-life siblings and that doesn't impact whether they can fall in love. The only issue is incest, which requires and actual biological relationship. I find it highly UNLIKELY most stepsiblings would rather date each other than get a new relationship in their lives, but there's nothing morally problematic about two completely unrelated individuals who know each other really well thinking they probably have a better shot at a good relationship than a pair of complete strangers.
I've been bullied by girls I thought were hot and could have seen myself being with them if they stopped being annoying.
Still not my thing though.
@@cmm5542 The biological connection actually carries very little risk(over one generation, it's very much a compounding issue) and can be tested for.
I've never understood the hate for wholesome (pseudo-)incest relationships.
You don't have to like it obviously, but treating it like it's evil doesn't really make sense to me.
You know, I was kind of having One Of Those Days today, and hearing you have a go at some horrible romance tropes was exactly what I needed to get a good laugh and feel a little better. Thanks for being you and making these videos.
#7 is the biggest offender on the list, just because my absolute biggest literary pet peeve is "because reasons." We fell in love... because reasons. We can't be together... because reasons. The hero wants a thing... because reasons. The villain wants the hero NOT to have that thing... because... you guessed it... reasons.
#9 is also one I hate. I am still not over having read the words "he pumped her cherry pie full of his thick, sweet ball batter" like a decade ago on DeviantArt. I also once heard a grown adult man refer to a penis as "the marital instrument." I will forever be worse for both of those things. Icky euphemisms turn sexy time into icky time. No one wants to read about icky time.
EWWWW OMG WHAT IS THAT LINE?!?!?!?!
@@JennaMoreci late aughts/early tens DeviantArt producing quality prose as always
Ewww. Is that a thing in American writing community? Disgusting.
@@Animeal_Tv DeviantART is international.I'm fairly sure the author of this travesty was British.
euphemisms make sex scenes sound like a cooking show gone horribly wrong
"It's a Low Bar, but people are limbo-ing right undering." --- priceless.
They used to use fancy terms in the romance industry back in the 90s and early 2000's. All my old historical romance novels especially the recency period one's use phrases like velvet steel length or something similar so I don't really find issue still seeing those types of phrases in stuff in reading now. that was all romance back then. 😂
The irony is it was believed crass at the time to say dick and felt velvet steel length was less offensive. Lol
@@Xandycane oh absolutely and sometimes if I do see the word dick in a graphic romance scene and not in an erotica, it kinda throws me off a little. In my own writings I do prefer to use the more poetic flow of words such as velvety steel type phrases, heh.
@@ambiradams No shame in that. Whatever works for you. 😁
I remember losing interest in a romance novel that had the two lovers meet by having the man kidnap the woman and her adopted sister and hold them for ransom in the Australian outback or something like that.
Said kidnapped woman treated the ordeal like some kind of romantic fantasy.
Haven't touched that book since.
That book sounds like 365 Days but worse, with a touch of Wolf Creek.
@@DrGregoryHouseIT The author wrote decent books before that one. I don't know why she decided that a kidnapping was a good way to start off that romance.
The worst part is that she usually writes religious romance novels.
As a 4 foot 11 person who genuinely looks like a child even in my 20's it does kinda weird me out when people write characters who look like me but are infantilzed. Not great vibes from it
THANK YOU for point #4!!! I am so sick of this shift within the romance genre to far more resemble erotica, with very little actual romance. 😔 It's all about being 'spicy,' but what is spice without romantic tension?
😂 the number one trope, I have a story about. But! The woman didn’t know her ex had a brother because she didn’t get a chance to meet the family before they broke up. And he’s not the type to have family photos hanging up
Hi Jenna! I love your channel :3
Could you do a video sometime about the best ways to introduce two characters in various relationships? (Love interests, best friends, rivals, enemies, ect?) ❤️ Love you!
I just got my first book covered design from them. It’s really good fast too, thanks Jenna!
Although I agree with your points about dating multiple people in the same family irl, I can see how it would make a lot of good drama for a story, but I guess it depends on how it was written
Hands down my least favorite is “I love you” because the author dictates I do. One of my favorite series had two romantic sub plots that did this and it was really hard to read. I skimmed these sections. I like a good slow burn where in a deep conversation or emotional moment you catch a spark and you the reader want to see them together, not the story telling you that you should
Currently writing a book whereby the woman was extremely hesitant to verbalize her attraction for her male best friend... until his girlfriend was out of the picture. Guess that gives me a pass on #6 trope
Much better.
I dunno, getting mad at the “ex’s brother” or “incest” subgenres is like getting mad at the “kidnapped by pirates/vikings/elves/aliens/whatever” subgenre. Yeah, it’s fucked up in real life, but in fiction it’s largely harmless and people enjoy it largely because of its transgressive nature.
The worst by far, for me, is barely legal girls with men that are hundreds of years older than them. Like, I can barely see someone in their early twenties with someone who is thirty or older... but I’m supposed to root for this ancient ab*sive ruler gr**ming this incredibly vulnerable young girl? Uhm. Okay. Twilight started it, but Sarah J. Maas cranked it all the way up. Why do so many female writers think this shit is sexy?? Which older man took advantage of them and made them think that this is love?? I’m so deeply disturbed by this trend like wtf 😭
**cough** Lore Olympus **cough**
Ay least on Twilight they half assed justify it by saying vampires keep the mentality of when they where turned. Still on thin ice.
As a 5’ 0.5” person in their 20’s, number two irks me to no end.
I love that you mentioned number five!! This kills me. It is so true, and I'm tired of reading it between couples who are new together.
Oedipus gouged out his eyes and exiled himself when he found out he married his mom.
Modern writers: "Teehee, incest!"
Ok but meat wand is objectively great. In a parody. Also I'm hungry.
PSA: don't read shit you don't like, you won't like it.
It doesn't have to be graphic, in fact it doesn't need to exist at all.
Even BETTER you don't have to read it!
You're a grown-ass person YOU decide what you read.
As someone who experienced Number 1 in real life I can tell. It sucks. I don't know if I my ex wanted to get petty revenge oon me or what, but she hooked up with my brother. And what's even funnier, it was actually my brother who introduced me to her. When I found out I was shocked, but I wasn't angry. I was just disgusted.
when you mentioned forbidden romance but with no apparent reason, the first thing that came to mind was chuck and blair from gossip girl.
Jenna: "Internalized mysogyny."
Me: Please stop making me cringe.
I agree on mumber 6. It's ... tiresome.
10:18 Speak for yourself, though.
I am happy to say I haven't read 10 so far. I hope I forever avoid that trend because eeew.
And if someone is going to be upset via House of Dragons, they need to remember that George R.R .Martin literally wrote in that incest leads to children suffering from insanity. He was condemning it, not praising it.
Also, most of those incest relationships aren't portrayed as romantic. They're toxic and/or abusive. A lot of them are arranged, unhappy marriages.
Oh my. So many people just felt called out and kink-shamed... While many of these tropes are not my cup of tea, I don't think I would tell anyone not to write them (aside from, "They are in love for...reasons," and, "They can't be together for...reasons," and, "He pounded her like a jackhammer for two hours straight... At which point, she called for an ambulance and the police after knocking him out with the lamp."). Especially when there seems to be a market for them. "Ten Romance Tropes I Personally Can't Stand" might be a better title :)
#4 happens in a lot of media (especially TV and film, where lazy writing feels like it's getting more common), even if the story is not romance focused... and it is *painful*, even for people like me who are often not there for the romance, but would still like it to *make sense* when it happens.
When there's a video about worst tropes or bad writing things, I usually enjoy figuring out how it could be used well. Not today.
I 100% agree with all of this. And yeah, it’s so frustrating when two characters just hook up and then confess love without ever actually having had any kind of deep conversation ever and without the author having ever actually shown them FALLING in love. The jump from hookups to love confessions is so annoying. “I’m in love with them!” ARE you though? You don’t actually know them! Yeah…
Always hate in movies and books when the guy keeps persisting after being rejected
Listening to you rant Jenna makes my day. It helps me unload my cluttered up mind so that way I can shut up and write the book LOL. All your content his inspiring and extremely helpful. Thanks 👍
Literally laughed out loud at the dig on Sara J. Mass🤣
Sprouting wings and flying while…. Now you leave SJM alone 😂
One not mentioned here that just makes my eyes roll is the enemies to lovers trope. Alot of novels I have read if you two characters are unreasonably hostile to one another early on there is often a moment of "here we go again" and they end up in bed later.
this list remind me of my absolute MOST hated romance trope: adopted siblings ending up together like it's "okay" because they're not related by blood??? Yet they were raised like siblings...GROSS JUST GROSS Weirdos who write this of course NEVER know what being in a non-bio family is actually like, not only disgusting but honestly so othering and hateful towards adopted kids - it shows that you don't consider or accept them as "real" family members like in your real, actual life - bc if you did you'd never in a million years choose to write about it.
On the flip side of short female love interests (even if sometimes they're 5'6 and talk like they're super short), why is every man in romance 6'4?
Because writers want to strain their neck to look at the hero.
Lol the 4'8" comment caught me so off guard. I'm in my mid 20s at this point and very secure with my height, and my lived experience from it. I agree with you when it comes to people over utilizing height as a method to infantilize women in media. Speaking from my personal experience, it forsure is a reflection on how the world interacts with smaller women.
"We are all garbage people roaming this landfill we call earth" is the most inspiring shit I've heard in a while
The lazy writing trope hit me when I read a romance in my coffee shop library. I didn’t quite know why I didn’t like it. We were in their heads, being told how attracted each was to the other, but without any deep conversations, or seeing a real relationship develop. Telling and not showing is really horrible.
I think it's interesting how often we cite these bad female tropes as largely created by male writers, but romance is overwhelmingly female dominated. It's more often female writers who, unfortunately, write these bad female AND male tropes. Glistening pecs and velvet steel on a "purely male" figure is just as bad a prissy mary sue with jugs the size of Texas and an impossible libido. Nearly every spicy romance book I've read with weird dumbing down and sexualization of the female lead have all been written by women.
Not arguing (much). But have you really checked? I think huge amount of male romance writers write under female sounding pseudonyms. But still, yes, I agree on the principle.
@@ulla7378 I have, actually. Firm believer in doing my research before letting assertions loose.
It's astonishing how much of the oppression we put down to 'patriarchy' can be historically demonstrated as mainly women oppressing other women.
The first one makes me think of how at my parents wedding there was a woman who had been married to one of my dad's cousins and then married another one of his cousins and he had to have them separated at the wedding with a table of blackbelts in between so that no flights broke out
Thanks for this list, it's really going to help me should I have a romantic aspect in my writing.
i read a lot of fellow authors who critique lightly and give uplifting feedback and advice.
But not you. and i love it.
aha yes, the ''I love you' trope. Been seeing this a lot on social media. People randomly add you and straight away say they love you and declare thier undying love for you...waffle out an essay of random words. It is so weird.
Sounds like the setup to a scam or something ngl
@@jimjimson6208 totally...so true
There's a movie called Rumor Has It. Basically, the premise is a woman learns her mother and grandmother might be the inspiration for The Graduate. In the end, the main character, Beau Burroughs nails the mother, grandmother, and several decades later, the granddaughter. It was very weird and I will never get that 90 minutes of my life back.
I-------------
I swear, my heart, mind, and soul has left after seeing this!
I'm sorry what
Number 3: What if the "Teenagers" are 18/19 years old?
personally i think thats fine
Moment I heard synchronized sploosh... I thought I heard synchronized swim lolol. 🏊♂️. I'm like... is that a new position? Lol. Had 2 re watch that part 😆
4:02
again, what you think is weird does not make it something bad.
I've HAD situations where I sat at a table with people I'd made out with and wasn't involved with anymore, it wasn't weird.
I made my protagonist 4'11" but she's a badass vampire and it's not primarily a romance. Also, her main love interest is a 6'1" girl.
We love sapphic vampires
Not me being 4'10"...But, that's cool!!! Supernatural romance is such an awesome sub-genre!
My main character is average height (5’4) but her dork of a werewolf gf is 6’3, sooo height difference ftw
I would love to be the vamp rn
A romance I can get behind despite being romance averse
"Cliff and I haven't spoken in years." I died. 😂😂😂
Jenna i know this is a weird question but could you do a video on tips for writting episodic stories. Im currently writting season 1 of my story and im 7 episode in. Any advice would be good on style, design, plotting a episodic story.
you are delightful and your videos make my days nicer
Wait ... thinking that small women are cute is misogyny? I always thought misogyny had sth to do with "hate" ? Well, you live and you learn ...
That mentality is a big yikes considering a continent in the other side of the world are filled with shorter women. Source: I am Asian, my families are too and we are small as heck.
Almost borderline xenophobic to think our women cannot be thought of cute just because the Anglos are taller 😔
Rebranding the balls? Glad I wasn't there when they got branded the first time!
Any chance of doing a takedown of the Bully Romance trope, where the story revolves around one person constantly abusing and bullying the other? That one really needs your special kind of attention :)
Number 9... My god, number 9. I once read a book that used the phrase "spheres of manhood" in it. I stopped reading after that.
SPHERES OF MANHOOD 😩😩😩
I was preparing to get really mad at you...but I just laughed all the way through. You nailed it and I couldn't disagree.
Well, in some countries, marrying your cousin is normal and isn't considered as incest. I wonder what the readers would think if they read stories from these countries about cousins' love 😅
I’m going to cry because I’m 4’10 😢 I didn’t know I was a trope lol
It’s not the height that’s the problem, it’s the way supposedly adult characters are treated as children. There’s nothing wrong with writing a short love interest; the problem comes when this character who’s meant to be a sexually attractive adult is infantilized. The problem is when the narrative-or worse, the other love interest-drools over how tiny and childlike the short character is. The problem is when our small, dainty protagonist can’t do anything on their own and always needs help from their big, strong love interest. Adults who have stereotypically childish traits-small stature, “baby face,” naivety, interests in things designed for a younger demographic, and so on exist, and there’s nothing wrong with representing them in fiction, but they are adults, and should be treated as such. Infantilizing an adult character-especially when, as is the case with most romance protagonists, you’re also sexualizing them-comes across as really creepy.
Number 5 is something I've experienced (the first time I had sex with the second partner I ever had). I acknowledge that it's rare, but it is definitely a thing.
I've also written Number 5 in a scene. That story took place in a fantasy setting where the characters had a magical empathic link - so one having an orgasm caused the other to have one along with them. It would've taken time and practice for them to NOT orgasm simultaneously.
I saw a movie about a woman who is about to get married, and gets seduced by another man right before the wedding. The movie is about how her mother and grandmother did the exact same thing with the exact same man. 🤮
I also hate books where two grown ass adults take the entire plot to get to the point, which is why in my book I'm having my protagonists get together closer to the beginning, and the romance is going to be about the relationship they build throughout their adventures together.
What the ever loving Netorare fuck is that plot (first paragraph), not even anime fans in the lowest denominator would love that trite of a plot
@@2006HondaCivicD Yeah, and her fiancé still marries her at the end.
“The world is trash”
Such a relatable statement
It shouldn't take until 3:30 to get to the point of the video.
Yea tbh I like these videos but I'm always just double tapping the screen until the 3 minute mark because I know she's not getting to the point of the video before that
4:41 this is why word choice is SOOOOO important. In the book I’m writing rn the LI is described as short upon first meeting not to infantalizer her but to emphasize how doll like she looks (its a kinda persona she puts up to hide the real her). Aside from the doll analogy there isn’t any focus on her height, rather any mention is more metaphorical and more details go into the rest of her features to emphasize how seemingly “perfect” and adorable she looks. I think what tends to fall short with this trope is either purposeful infantalization (ew) or being so unaware of how the verbiage makes a character look bc if the only metaphors you can use to describe someone are childlike 😰
Okay but House of the Dragon is really good and you should watch it when you get the chance 👀👀👀
I was not expecting the Cardi clip 😭😭
I get what you're saying about the size of females in books.
But us size difference kink peeps exist 😄 it's not about infantalising females (or males). It's a submissive thing, at least as I see it.
It definitely shouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is, however.
Unless..... there's a lot of people with size difference kinks that don't know they have it 😂
I feel that if there is no outside force stopping two characters in love being together, at least make is a fantasy novel where they are different humanoid species and one feels uncomfortable and embarrassed about if it is morally okay because they haven't got the memo from the author that they're both mostly human. Like a mermaid and a human, or a minotaur and a bird-person.
You rock Jenna and I appreciate you so much ❤
I mean ... I just don't want the s3x scenes to be around, period. Hence, why I don't read romance (when it's not the sub-genre). There's about a million more things to being in love than lust. *Sighs* . If I want romance, anime and Asian dramas are my go to.
I’m writing a romance between two people who had a parent died protecting them. Do you have any advice for them?
My number 11, she knew he loved her because he wanted to knock her up. Or she knew the pack of werewolves loved her because they as a unit wanted to knock her up
the sarah j maas slander 😭💀
My MOST HATED trope is unnecessary romance which can be cut and nothing changes in the story and I also hate frequent "adaptation expansion" which adds unnecessary love interest into the story like a character who was in like one chapter in the book in the movie adaptation or in books sequel becomes protagonists wife or girlfriend.