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In general I think the main problem with trying to simulate real life formations in total war games, is that total war puts a premium on killing as opposed to morale and fatigue which IRL battles are all about. For example in this box formation there is a lot of morale value for having defenses from every directions and fatigue value for cavalry resting in the center. Unfortunately in total war games it's much more important to kill as much enemy as possible, so many troops on the sides of the square are not participating in damage dealing which is not optimal in this videogame. Furthermore there is not much point for cavalry to rest inside as they would IRL as fatigue is not that relevant, battles here a very fast and it's much more optimal to have even tired cav continue fighting and killing instead of retreating them into a square to recover. I hope to see more realistic battlefield simulations in the future of gaming.
Agreed. Although in a game with magic fireballs and dragons going up against anything from pike and shot supported by artillery to spiked clubs and blowdarts, you can't expect historical tactics to totally hold anyway. I still wish I could see a total war style game with more realistic emphasis on moral and exhuastion
@@fake-inafakerson8087 indeed WH gets a pass as a historically inspired fantasy universe. I still think it would be better if morale and exhaustion played a bigger role but spectacle should take precedent. That said for the historical games there is not much excuse imo.
I've found that in some historical titles (Rome 1/2 and Shogun 2) I find some value in resting units, but perhaps that's part of a slower playstyle. I believe I've seen some PixelatedApollo videos where in prolonged sieges players cycle their infantry in order for them to rest. However, I dont think ive ever even thought about resting units in Warhammer, it just doesnt happen fast enough for this game.
Plus, most formations fare miserably in the face of monsters and the like, who can bowl through a formation and be inside the box within seconds, at which point all the box is doing is preventing the ranged and resting units from scattering, since the monster can leave pretty freely the same way it got in. Also the existence of supermen who can single handedly hold off entire regiments, provide unparalleled firing lines for their allies, and can even take a healthy amount of friendly fire without particularly minding kinda shakes up the purpose of a formation like this anyways. And finally, siege tier warmachines (and offensive magic, which mostly functions similarly) being deployed against formations is also pretty horrible for the viability of "sensible" formations, since sensible formations are often very tightly packed, and just mean a catapult or cannon is killing 30 guys per shot instead of 10. Even ignoring the issues of morale and fatigue, the battlefield conditions of Total Warhammer lend itself much more to very decentralized and scattered army "formations" with multiple small, tentative fronts, backed up by flexible strike teams or supermen who can quickly reinforce and react to emergent threats. And lots of ranged firepower to quickly focus down such threats.
I am obsessed with these Byzantine infantry squares, it's such a strange and underrated formation that is almost never talked about. Thanks for making a video about it
It is a very underrated and underrepresented formation. The Romans were going up against empires many times their size, with swifter cavalry, but with discipline and proper logistics made their enemies greatest strength useless.
Many thanks to you! I am using this as my main formation in my Eltharion campaign and it is a GODSEND! Context: Eltharion's roster is mostly comprised of spear infantry, archers and spear/archers hybrids. His force is therefore mostly comprised of anti-large(monsters and cavalry) infantry and anti-infantry archers, with some anti-infantry cavalry support. As his is a High Elf faction, this means a few things: first, you are always going to be *vastly* outnumbered by your enemies (greenskins, undead, skaven and beastmen are your immediate neighbours); second, your battleline is mainly composed of units that cannot win an infantry-on-infantry fight (spears can somewhat last but can't kill for shizzle); third, as a smaller, mostly-infantry force, you are exceptionally vulnerable to enemy artillery. Therefore, to acheive victory, you need to: first, approach the enemy using formations and/or terrain so that you are never outflanked; second, use your infantry-killers (archers and cavalry) to attack a few enemy units at time, concentrating your forces to cause them to quickly rout (rather than attemping to kill them all), rince and repeat; third, rush the enemy artillery with your fast units (cavalry, flyers if you have them) in order to save your infantry force (artillery counter-fire will get you nowhere, eagle claws suck at that). How the Byzantine infantry square helped: 1) As it is a square, it cannot be outflanked, and as it is made of spears (with silver shields), it is great at resisting cavalry, monstrous infantry and archers. Plus, having a narrower battleline without incurring the risk of being outflanked really helps negating the enemy's numbers advantage: less of them are actually fighting you (make your line last longer) than are blobing behind their comrades, and those blobing can be targeted by arrows or spells without risking friendly fire. Plus, unless you are completly envelopped by the enemy, your cavalry in the center of the square is always but a short ride from providing a hammer-and-anvil assist. 2) As you are very much reliant on your cavalry and archers to win any battle, you need to ensure that they take as little casualties as possible. Your archers can outshoot many things but will evaporate if engaged in close-quarters by anything, and you are in the weird position of only having access to anti-infantry-shock-cavalry, which means that both your archers and your cavalry are weak to almost anything the enemy has that moves fast and is at least decent in close-quarters combat. Therefore, having a place where your archers and cavalry can hide from these types of units is essential. 3) After having your cavalry rush across the map to destroy the enemy artillery, they will need a place to hide and recuperate. Usually, their little run around the map attracts most of the enemy cavalry. The good thing is: your cavalry should be faster than your enemy's. The bad thing is: that won't stay true for long, as you have been running for longer (crossing the map, evading enemies, cycle-charging) and you get slower as you get more tired. As you will still need your cavalry, in this battle or the next, having the ability to retreat to the safe haven inside the square rather than having to fight the enemy on losing terms makes all the difference. ------->About cav-on-cav action as Eltharion's High Elves: Even if you manage to win such an engagement (which you can, depending on the match up), you will be taking heavy casualties, which will *significantly* reduce your combined arms ability, which is more important to you than it is to your enemy (who can rely on outnumbering you). It is not worth it, as you won't be able to decisively beat the horde factions you're fighting without it. Since outgrinding them is out of the question, you will need to pause any campaigning until you recruit new units, which is risky, as your enemies begin with more territory and can easilly use this pause in the fighting and their more abundant resources to tech-up, while you are still struggling to recruit T2 units.
Hi! :) A really nice story & good idea with past historical views & old photos lessons & then impalement em into use in reality, into games & or even into fantasy rpg element simulations as well! :) I have done this since the age of teen metal soldiers or plastic toys & then went onto the computer age era as well & still doing it, till this day! :) Just wanted to give you some creed, in person some warm headups, it´s entertaining & a good lesson for those younger generations or even people whom never read history or tactic warfare at all. With all this combinations in the clip & vid cuts & camera panning , right/left flank & center & zoom in & out zoom. Makes it all so much interesting & your voice author is really great to hear :) Thank you Malleus Gaming! BR AN.
Cheers Bello! What artillery did they have back then? Ballistae and Catapults? A damn man I didn't realize they had infantry portable flamethrowers I just thought they had the Greek Fire on boats! That'd be so terrifying
@@MalleusGaming57 They had Onagers, so basically catapults. There isn't a ton of info on the handheld flamethrowers, sources focus more on the early grenades they also had so either the flames weren't as prominent or they came at the very end. There's a great video by SandRhomanHistory called Byzantine Military Revolution that explains how the whole tactic comes together
I'll have to read up on them, I've heard of them in history and various media but never looked that deep into their military tactics that'd be really cool to learn about
Oh nice, was waiting to see you try this one. A few things of note: a) Spells. These are always going to be the bane of dense infantry formations like this. There's not much you can do to defend against it, unfortunately. b) Some byzantine formations added artillery. If you could squeeze it, perhaps some anti-infantry artillery to soften up the enemies as they approach the frontline. c) High elves do have dragon units, perhaps make use of them as a sort of 'heavy cav'? d) I'm impressed you got the cav back into the square! That looked awesome. Overall, an entertaining video. :)
Thanks so much glad you enjoyed it! A) Yeah magic users can be such a problem, I've had some success trying to snipe them out or assassinate them with a Cav or Hero unit but it's always trouble B) That's some good thinking, if sticking with the High Elf theme then Bolt Throwers seem like they'd fit perfectly with that C) You know, I never thought of them as like a Super Heavy Cav but yeah that'd totally work, definitely add some punch, maybe even represent the Greek Fire aspect a bit too. D) Right?! I was so happy it actually worked and it looked so cool! Haha cheers bud!
Thanks for your guide, very fun to watch, i'm a beginner of Total War and i like play legit with historical formations and such. It will be very helpful to me =)
Thanks for watching bro! Glad you enjoyed it and that I was able to help you out! Make sure to check out my other vids for more ideas and tactics! If you ever need more help or advice feel free to join my Discord, you can find the link for it in the video description
Amazing video as always Malleus! The formation itself works really well against heavy infantry or cav factions, but as we've seen here that heavy AOE magic factions will absolutely wreck these units so close together, but it was nice to see and to newbies learn to stay the fuck away from tzeentch early game hahah
Thanks so much bro that really means a lot! Oh man yeah Magic can cause sooo much damage to formations like these, to be fair I try and avoid Tzeentch at all times haha Cheers bro!
I think it would have gone smoother had you focused your archers on their blue horrors as they approached and tried to kill their range while you out ranged them.
Oh yeah I totally should have pulled my archers back a little, I think I was caught up in micro-ing the Cavalry though which is always a pitfall to watch out for. Damn Horrors melted my shooty boys!
Hey malleus, your videos have transformed the way i play the game and have fun and i was wondering if i could send you a replay(or a recording of one) where I use some really awesome combimed arms tactics as empire. I think it would really match your style ans hopefully be fun to watch! It was a mission battle where i defended against three waves of norscans and is about 10 minutes. Thanks for everything you do!
Thanks man I really appreciate that glad they've been helpful and thanks for watching! If you wanna send a replay I have a place in my Discord that you can do that, feel free to join there you can find the link in my descriptions
That 180 range makes cheap stacks of them insanely effective as defense patrols on Ulthuan. Or just using full stacks of shielded sea guard and auto-resolving the enemy to death.
the gabs between the infantry can also be used for artillerie and guns to fire through. canons and rifles have troubles fire over their comrands heads, using the gabs to give them lines of fire is an option to make use of them
@@MalleusGaming57 also worth mentioning: you could change the width of your infantry. first a short width but greater depth to create a bigger space for gunners. when the enemy closes in, make the gab smaller, so the enemy can not get through. and when the melee has startet, make the widht shorter and the depth bigger again. by doing that your blockers should hold out longer, and the gunners and cannons have a bigger window to fire through.
You should definatly try it against a cavalry faction like britonia or maybe Vampires, you could also do a bigger army in those cenarios with the different layers.
Oh yeah playing against a cavalry heavy army would definitely show off the strengths more! Even against Greenskins if they go heavy on the goblin cavalry in the early game this would be very strong against them
Vampire Counts especially try to wrap their armies around yours with their fast hounds on the flanks. I used a tight square formation as my standard with Volkmar when fighting Vampire Counts to protect the artillery and the battle prayers can reach more units than in a line.
Haha absolutely! Against a more traditional army (like Bretonnians I guess) probably would have been a much better showing. But throw some Daemons in the pot and that certainly makes things more entertaining haha cheers bud!
I think formations like this (at least in the Warhammer 3 context) work a lot better for tanky/gunline factions like the Dwarfs, at least when it comes to going up against factions with big single entities or really anything that can be shot with guns "over" a line of infantry. Having strong artillery to soften the line clash before it happens, guns to hard-focus the bigger threats (like the Flamer or Beast of Nurgle) and a frontline that isn't *as* susceptible to getting folded by mass. For a faction like the High Elves, I've always preferred checker-boarding the frontline infantry, and keeping them in a tighter square to artificially increase their mass. I also find it helps a lot more with responding to threats, its easy enough to pull a unit from the back of a checkboard up to support the front, or flank around. The back of the checkboard is also perfect for units like the Lothern Seaguard to get some volleys off safely before switching to melee if needed, making their ranged penalty less noticeable.
Absolutely, Dwarf Boxes tend to work out the best I've found. And for sure regarding the High Elves, I tend to checkerboard them as well it's just nice, simple and adaptable.
I think with a unit or 2 of medium or heavy infantry to form a 2nd front line to make up for the fact you know those first spears are going to get hosed and routed. Would mean not having to break formation as early and still follows the byzantine theme of a 2nd line of infantry. They can also fulfil the role of gap closes should an enemy want to take advantage of your open sides.
@@MalleusGaming57 white lions were what came to my mind as well to fit your early game theme xD Since them spears are going to take most the initial impact and fire, the lions should be good to bolster the line and get a bit of dmg out themselves.
I would have liked to see this formation against the Wood Elves if anyone. Their light armor, fast, shock cav and infantry plus decent horse archers and great archers are closer analogy to the Arabic and Turkish slave soldiers they were using the formation on. Also, holding back the melee cav within the formation till the infantry approached may have provided hammer and anvil, or at least earlier disruption of their missile units... Plus, that is how the Strategy manual says the Romans used the Tagmata Cavalry.
Oh yeah that definitely sounds like a close match to what it faced in real life, I never thought of pitting it up against Wood Elves, but I also hate fighting against Wood Elves haha Cheers man I'll have to check out how this would fare
I guess this formation may be useful for emergency rear line armies in the mid-late game. where you can global recruit a few top tier units, but the rest of the army is basic. have the top tier infantry hold the front of the box, while the rest of the army does it's thing.
That's a great point, you can use your limited elite units up front where they can do some serious damage and the weaker troops can hold back and protect their flanks, everyone's got an important role!
I am currently playing Kislev campaign so will try this out. Should be effective against every demon faction but Tzeentch. Empire, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Cathay will decimate it with artillery fire.
This would be great for early game Kislev, particularly against all the Norscan Marauders armies. Those Marauder Horsemen sure do love to flank around and cause trouble
I dont think that tactic had a fight against demons in mind when it was invented abck in the day... You should try that in Rome 2 with the DEI mod, it is the essential mod to play that game historically while having fun
Have you ever considered using another total war game for these tests? I was playing shogun 2 today, and after recruiting some matchlock ashigaru I wondered how they'd work in a historical formation. Also, historical total war games seem to put more emphasis on morale and fatigue than the warhammer series.
I know a lot of these would be more effective with the older Total Wars, however I don't know how effective those vids would be on my channel since they are far older.
@@MalleusGaming57 I see. I, for one, would be really interested. It’s hard to find good visualizations, and it’d be interesting to try those out after watching your vids.
I feel like you'd also find some success with dwarfs using this formation, but that's my dwarf loving and static defense using ass being biased A potential fun variant of this would be to use it with goblin units only, not that I'd expect any real success but hey, at least goblins are supposed to die in large numbers. A benefit to this is that your cavalry options get wider as you could go with wolf riders, squig hoppers, or wolf chariots as well as their archer variants for this.
Oh yeah Dwarfs would love this, sticking some artillery in the middle and some Irondrakes shooting out the sides would be so good! Man a Goblin Infantry Square would be hilarious! You're right it'd definitely help keep their light cav protected, hopefully the front line would actually be able to hold though haha cheers bro
I liked it, but like you said yourself, lots of units end up doing nothing. Could you do a video of formations that work best against certain factions? Like if I am fighting a heavy monster faction, what are the best formations to use? Or if I am fighting a heavy missile faction, what formations are best? Obviously it depends on what faction one is playing, but like could you use empire, or high elves as standards? since they are mostly well balanced.
The "most units do nothing" part can actually be a situational benefit Specifically, for emergency armies, that usually consist of a few Regiments of Renown or other racial emergency units like Blessed Spawnings, and then some basic, 1 turn recruit infantry and ranged. Put the regiments of renown at the front of the box, where they do most of the fighting. The sides of the box are the lower tier infantry; their main purpose is to deal with flank overflow and be a deterrent, more than an actual wall. Your RoR and Lord get to shoulder most of the fight, while the lower tier infantry, that would just lose if it had to fight properly protects your ranged support mostly by existing, and can remain more or less fresh for cleanup duty. This allows you to maximize the defensive presence of your worst units, while allowing the best units opportunities to fight with fire support that they otherwise wouldn't be able to protect alone. As an aside, for monster heavy factions, the best "formation" is just keeping distance between melee squads and ranged units, doubling up on melee infantry layers since many monsters can punch right through one unit, and preparing decentralized "traps" for monsters charging into one unit, getting encircled by another, and then focus fire on the monsters one at a time. Shock cavalry can put in solid work cycle charging them, but, you can't really guarantee the monster will consistently expose one side of it; piling in a second squad to encircle and entrap a monster to pin it down, then shooting it until it dies is really the best strategy, and feeding your worst infantry to monsters you aren't focusing on yet, or buying time with heroes. Keeping a unit of spears or even better halberds free, and able to hunt the monster as the entrapment unit is also beneficial. A good example of this in practice is actually the counter example, Vampire Counts. Vampire Counts have an absolutely miserable time against monster armies because they can't do this.
Yeah if the whole thing was made up of Lothern Seaguard than that'd be a different matter since they could all shoot. In the very early game I suppose you wouldn't quite be able to do that but could upgrade from this form to that relatively quickly. I'll look into that for sure, off the top of my head against a missile heavy faction you'll want fast units to rush them and pin them down, or stealthy units so you can approach them without taking a lot of damage. A Prinny On Break posted some great advice against monsters down below in this comment thread
I think this formation would work better in a historical title than the Warhammer setting. In Warhammer, artillery and spells are spammable. This discourages the idea of putting units in dense formations. Your front line was decimated so fast because it was nuked by spell and artillery. In historical titles, the army would be more focused on cavalry as it is usually the strongest unit in the game. That is when this formation shines.
Absolutely, pretty much all of the historical tactics I've tried out on the channel would work better in the older historical titles, but part of the fun for me is seeing how well (or poorly) they perform in a fantasy setting such as Warhammer
Interesting experiment but flawed. I think you should have used only light cavalry or fewer silverhelms. The square is good when you can't or don't want to contest the flanks. Having the silverhelm holding a flank nullified the purpose of the square.
I thought about just doing Reavers but I kinda wanted to hint towards the Byzantine emphasis on Heavy Cav with the Cataphracts through the Silver Helms. That is a good point though, I'll have to try it out with an army with a heavy focus on Light Cav
Whenever I get to playing The Old World I'm really interested in seeing if things like this will work in that. It'd be certainly workable in the Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game since each individual model can move around on its own so you can really set up some legit formations
I don't know enough about the Byzantine military to be able to answer that, though I am looking forward to learning more about them. I added in the 3 Silver Helms to at least suggest to their Cavalry focus as well.
These formations are pointless when you have flying units with massive aoe, or heroes and lords or big units that can ignore your spearmen and push through to the archers. Many things in real life just doesn't work well in this game due to fantasy.
You should do a formations video on historical tw even compare them to wh3 to even show the community that was introduced with the wh series. Rome 2 with divide et empera mod comes to mind. They have proper formation even a retreat button i believe so that your units can step back to rest without falling to death like they introduced in tw pharaoh, not to mention longer battles where formations actually matter. Just tit for tat
@@MalleusGaming57 I didn't say to play pharaoh mate just that mechanic is in mods of older games, I never played pharaoh or troy maybe when they are at 5eur in 10years lol.
It's definitely something I'd keep in my back pocket when playing against another person, having the wherewithal to protect yourself against a surround is very important
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In general I think the main problem with trying to simulate real life formations in total war games, is that total war puts a premium on killing as opposed to morale and fatigue which IRL battles are all about. For example in this box formation there is a lot of morale value for having defenses from every directions and fatigue value for cavalry resting in the center. Unfortunately in total war games it's much more important to kill as much enemy as possible, so many troops on the sides of the square are not participating in damage dealing which is not optimal in this videogame. Furthermore there is not much point for cavalry to rest inside as they would IRL as fatigue is not that relevant, battles here a very fast and it's much more optimal to have even tired cav continue fighting and killing instead of retreating them into a square to recover. I hope to see more realistic battlefield simulations in the future of gaming.
Agreed. Although in a game with magic fireballs and dragons going up against anything from pike and shot supported by artillery to spiked clubs and blowdarts, you can't expect historical tactics to totally hold anyway. I still wish I could see a total war style game with more realistic emphasis on moral and exhuastion
@@fake-inafakerson8087 indeed WH gets a pass as a historically inspired fantasy universe. I still think it would be better if morale and exhaustion played a bigger role but spectacle should take precedent.
That said for the historical games there is not much excuse imo.
I've found that in some historical titles (Rome 1/2 and Shogun 2) I find some value in resting units, but perhaps that's part of a slower playstyle. I believe I've seen some PixelatedApollo videos where in prolonged sieges players cycle their infantry in order for them to rest. However, I dont think ive ever even thought about resting units in Warhammer, it just doesnt happen fast enough for this game.
Plus, most formations fare miserably in the face of monsters and the like, who can bowl through a formation and be inside the box within seconds, at which point all the box is doing is preventing the ranged and resting units from scattering, since the monster can leave pretty freely the same way it got in. Also the existence of supermen who can single handedly hold off entire regiments, provide unparalleled firing lines for their allies, and can even take a healthy amount of friendly fire without particularly minding kinda shakes up the purpose of a formation like this anyways.
And finally, siege tier warmachines (and offensive magic, which mostly functions similarly) being deployed against formations is also pretty horrible for the viability of "sensible" formations, since sensible formations are often very tightly packed, and just mean a catapult or cannon is killing 30 guys per shot instead of 10.
Even ignoring the issues of morale and fatigue, the battlefield conditions of Total Warhammer lend itself much more to very decentralized and scattered army "formations" with multiple small, tentative fronts, backed up by flexible strike teams or supermen who can quickly reinforce and react to emergent threats.
And lots of ranged firepower to quickly focus down such threats.
3 Kingdoms focuses much more on fatigue than Warhammer titles. I actually like that part of it, I just wish the UI in that game was better.
I am obsessed with these Byzantine infantry squares, it's such a strange and underrated formation that is almost never talked about. Thanks for making a video about it
It was fascinating to learn about cheers buddy glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching!
It is a very underrated and underrepresented formation. The Romans were going up against empires many times their size, with swifter cavalry, but with discipline and proper logistics made their enemies greatest strength useless.
Many thanks to you! I am using this as my main formation in my Eltharion campaign and it is a GODSEND!
Context:
Eltharion's roster is mostly comprised of spear infantry, archers and spear/archers hybrids. His force is therefore mostly comprised of anti-large(monsters and cavalry) infantry and anti-infantry archers, with some anti-infantry cavalry support. As his is a High Elf faction, this means a few things: first, you are always going to be *vastly* outnumbered by your enemies (greenskins, undead, skaven and beastmen are your immediate neighbours); second, your battleline is mainly composed of units that cannot win an infantry-on-infantry fight (spears can somewhat last but can't kill for shizzle); third, as a smaller, mostly-infantry force, you are exceptionally vulnerable to enemy artillery.
Therefore, to acheive victory, you need to: first, approach the enemy using formations and/or terrain so that you are never outflanked; second, use your infantry-killers (archers and cavalry) to attack a few enemy units at time, concentrating your forces to cause them to quickly rout (rather than attemping to kill them all), rince and repeat; third, rush the enemy artillery with your fast units (cavalry, flyers if you have them) in order to save your infantry force (artillery counter-fire will get you nowhere, eagle claws suck at that).
How the Byzantine infantry square helped:
1) As it is a square, it cannot be outflanked, and as it is made of spears (with silver shields), it is great at resisting cavalry, monstrous infantry and archers. Plus, having a narrower battleline without incurring the risk of being outflanked really helps negating the enemy's numbers advantage: less of them are actually fighting you (make your line last longer) than are blobing behind their comrades, and those blobing can be targeted by arrows or spells without risking friendly fire. Plus, unless you are completly envelopped by the enemy, your cavalry in the center of the square is always but a short ride from providing a hammer-and-anvil assist.
2) As you are very much reliant on your cavalry and archers to win any battle, you need to ensure that they take as little casualties as possible. Your archers can outshoot many things but will evaporate if engaged in close-quarters by anything, and you are in the weird position of only having access to anti-infantry-shock-cavalry, which means that both your archers and your cavalry are weak to almost anything the enemy has that moves fast and is at least decent in close-quarters combat. Therefore, having a place where your archers and cavalry can hide from these types of units is essential.
3) After having your cavalry rush across the map to destroy the enemy artillery, they will need a place to hide and recuperate. Usually, their little run around the map attracts most of the enemy cavalry. The good thing is: your cavalry should be faster than your enemy's. The bad thing is: that won't stay true for long, as you have been running for longer (crossing the map, evading enemies, cycle-charging) and you get slower as you get more tired. As you will still need your cavalry, in this battle or the next, having the ability to retreat to the safe haven inside the square rather than having to fight the enemy on losing terms makes all the difference.
------->About cav-on-cav action as Eltharion's High Elves:
Even if you manage to win such an engagement (which you can, depending on the match up), you will be taking heavy casualties, which will *significantly* reduce your combined arms ability, which is more important to you than it is to your enemy (who can rely on outnumbering you). It is not worth it, as you won't be able to decisively beat the horde factions you're fighting without it. Since outgrinding them is out of the question, you will need to pause any campaigning until you recruit new units, which is risky, as your enemies begin with more territory and can easilly use this pause in the fighting and their more abundant resources to tech-up, while you are still struggling to recruit T2 units.
Your videos are gett8ng better and better. One of my favorite channels now
Thanks so much bro! That really means a lot to hear! Cheers!
Hi! :)
A really nice story & good idea with past historical views & old photos lessons & then impalement em into use in reality, into games & or even into fantasy rpg element simulations as well! :)
I have done this since the age of teen metal soldiers or plastic toys & then went onto the computer age era as well & still doing it, till this day! :)
Just wanted to give you some creed, in person some warm headups, it´s entertaining & a good lesson for those younger generations or even people whom never read history or tactic warfare at all. With all this combinations in the clip & vid cuts & camera panning , right/left flank & center & zoom in & out zoom. Makes it all so much interesting & your voice author is really great to hear :)
Thank you Malleus Gaming!
BR AN.
Thanks so much for the kind words I really appreciate it!
Nicephorus phokas would be proud of this video
Haha glad to hear it! Cheers bud!
the analysis was really spot-on, i appreciate it a lot. love this video format, keep it up please! 🐐
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it bud cheers!
Nice going. One thing I would add is that later versions of the Byzantine square housed the artillery too as well as using flamethrowers
Cheers Bello! What artillery did they have back then? Ballistae and Catapults? A damn man I didn't realize they had infantry portable flamethrowers I just thought they had the Greek Fire on boats! That'd be so terrifying
@@MalleusGaming57 They had Onagers, so basically catapults.
There isn't a ton of info on the handheld flamethrowers, sources focus more on the early grenades they also had so either the flames weren't as prominent or they came at the very end.
There's a great video by SandRhomanHistory called Byzantine Military Revolution that explains how the whole tactic comes together
I love seeing historical tactics in this game. Please make more of these.
Absolutely will do! Don't forget to check out my Total Tactics playlist if you haven't already, I've got a ton of videos on Historical Tactics
I would love to see you cover Ottoman empire's doctrine at its prime!
The 🦗 way of doing things, just use more of them until profit
I'll have to read up on them, I've heard of them in history and various media but never looked that deep into their military tactics that'd be really cool to learn about
Oh nice, was waiting to see you try this one.
A few things of note:
a) Spells. These are always going to be the bane of dense infantry formations like this. There's not much you can do to defend against it, unfortunately.
b) Some byzantine formations added artillery. If you could squeeze it, perhaps some anti-infantry artillery to soften up the enemies as they approach the frontline.
c) High elves do have dragon units, perhaps make use of them as a sort of 'heavy cav'?
d) I'm impressed you got the cav back into the square! That looked awesome.
Overall, an entertaining video. :)
Thanks so much glad you enjoyed it!
A) Yeah magic users can be such a problem, I've had some success trying to snipe them out or assassinate them with a Cav or Hero unit but it's always trouble
B) That's some good thinking, if sticking with the High Elf theme then Bolt Throwers seem like they'd fit perfectly with that
C) You know, I never thought of them as like a Super Heavy Cav but yeah that'd totally work, definitely add some punch, maybe even represent the Greek Fire aspect a bit too.
D) Right?! I was so happy it actually worked and it looked so cool! Haha cheers bud!
Thanks for your guide, very fun to watch, i'm a beginner of Total War and i like play legit with historical formations and such. It will be very helpful to me =)
Thanks for watching bro! Glad you enjoyed it and that I was able to help you out! Make sure to check out my other vids for more ideas and tactics! If you ever need more help or advice feel free to join my Discord, you can find the link for it in the video description
as a lover of Byzantine history and military things. I am glad to see this!
Awesome! Yeah their history is so cool I really gotta read up some more on them
Being high elves and fighting chaos monstrosities?
Yeah, that's Byzantium alright.
All the way until the end times too!
Haha Ulthuan shall never fall!
I love this series so much.
Glad you've been enjoying it bro! Thanks for watching!
Amazing video as always Malleus! The formation itself works really well against heavy infantry or cav factions, but as we've seen here that heavy AOE magic factions will absolutely wreck these units so close together, but it was nice to see and to newbies learn to stay the fuck away from tzeentch early game hahah
Thanks so much bro that really means a lot! Oh man yeah Magic can cause sooo much damage to formations like these, to be fair I try and avoid Tzeentch at all times haha Cheers bro!
I BEEN WAITING FOR THIS 1 :D
Great vid Malleus cannot wait to try this out in my own battles :D
Haha cheers bro hope I didn't keep you waiting too too long!
@@MalleusGaming57 Not at all man! just keep up the great work these vids are amazing!
I think it would have gone smoother had you focused your archers on their blue horrors as they approached and tried to kill their range while you out ranged them.
Oh yeah I totally should have pulled my archers back a little, I think I was caught up in micro-ing the Cavalry though which is always a pitfall to watch out for. Damn Horrors melted my shooty boys!
@@MalleusGaming57fair enough. Has definitely happened to me before. Always easier to armchair general to a video than actually playing haha
Staunch lines of spears and great video!
Haha cheers bro thanks so much!
Hey malleus, your videos have transformed the way i play the game and have fun and i was wondering if i could send you a replay(or a recording of one) where I use some really awesome combimed arms tactics as empire.
I think it would really match your style ans hopefully be fun to watch!
It was a mission battle where i defended against three waves of norscans and is about 10 minutes.
Thanks for everything you do!
Thanks man I really appreciate that glad they've been helpful and thanks for watching! If you wanna send a replay I have a place in my Discord that you can do that, feel free to join there you can find the link in my descriptions
Awesome content , i like these .very informative
Cheers buddy thank you!
High Elf spears and archers are so much fun to use, they definitely make up 80% of my armies when I play them haha
STAUNCH LINE OF SPEARS!!! haha I have a soft spot for them too they're just really efficient and they look amazing
That 180 range makes cheap stacks of them insanely effective as defense patrols on Ulthuan. Or just using full stacks of shielded sea guard and auto-resolving the enemy to death.
the gabs between the infantry can also be used for artillerie and guns to fire through. canons and rifles have troubles fire over their comrands heads, using the gabs to give them lines of fire is an option to make use of them
Absolutely that'd be a great way to utilize short ranged gunners too like what Cathay, Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs have!
@@MalleusGaming57 also worth mentioning: you could change the width of your infantry.
first a short width but greater depth to create a bigger space for gunners. when the enemy closes in, make the gab smaller, so the enemy can not get through. and when the melee has startet, make the widht shorter and the depth bigger again. by doing that your blockers should hold out longer, and the gunners and cannons have a bigger window to fire through.
You should definatly try it against a cavalry faction like britonia or maybe Vampires, you could also do a bigger army in those cenarios with the different layers.
Oh yeah playing against a cavalry heavy army would definitely show off the strengths more! Even against Greenskins if they go heavy on the goblin cavalry in the early game this would be very strong against them
Vampire Counts especially try to wrap their armies around yours with their fast hounds on the flanks. I used a tight square formation as my standard with Volkmar when fighting Vampire Counts to protect the artillery and the battle prayers can reach more units than in a line.
This is what happens when you try to use historical military tactics against like literal daemons. Great video though liking the series
Haha absolutely! Against a more traditional army (like Bretonnians I guess) probably would have been a much better showing. But throw some Daemons in the pot and that certainly makes things more entertaining haha cheers bud!
I think formations like this (at least in the Warhammer 3 context) work a lot better for tanky/gunline factions like the Dwarfs, at least when it comes to going up against factions with big single entities or really anything that can be shot with guns "over" a line of infantry. Having strong artillery to soften the line clash before it happens, guns to hard-focus the bigger threats (like the Flamer or Beast of Nurgle) and a frontline that isn't *as* susceptible to getting folded by mass.
For a faction like the High Elves, I've always preferred checker-boarding the frontline infantry, and keeping them in a tighter square to artificially increase their mass. I also find it helps a lot more with responding to threats, its easy enough to pull a unit from the back of a checkboard up to support the front, or flank around. The back of the checkboard is also perfect for units like the Lothern Seaguard to get some volleys off safely before switching to melee if needed, making their ranged penalty less noticeable.
Absolutely, Dwarf Boxes tend to work out the best I've found. And for sure regarding the High Elves, I tend to checkerboard them as well it's just nice, simple and adaptable.
I think with a unit or 2 of medium or heavy infantry to form a 2nd front line to make up for the fact you know those first spears are going to get hosed and routed. Would mean not having to break formation as early and still follows the byzantine theme of a 2nd line of infantry. They can also fulfil the role of gap closes should an enemy want to take advantage of your open sides.
Yeah some White Lions would fit well and be thematically very appropriate. Still early game enough too that it'd work with this
@@MalleusGaming57 white lions were what came to my mind as well to fit your early game theme xD
Since them spears are going to take most the initial impact and fire, the lions should be good to bolster the line and get a bit of dmg out themselves.
I don't quite know how it would be best implemented, but I'd really like to see the Spanish terico explored and put to use
I've got a few Tercio videos out, you can check out the first one here: th-cam.com/video/7RRa0H6GZf8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=J5x6j9T6HWQ1yhc3
I would have liked to see this formation against the Wood Elves if anyone. Their light armor, fast, shock cav and infantry plus decent horse archers and great archers are closer analogy to the Arabic and Turkish slave soldiers they were using the formation on. Also, holding back the melee cav within the formation till the infantry approached may have provided hammer and anvil, or at least earlier disruption of their missile units... Plus, that is how the Strategy manual says the Romans used the Tagmata Cavalry.
Oh yeah that definitely sounds like a close match to what it faced in real life, I never thought of pitting it up against Wood Elves, but I also hate fighting against Wood Elves haha Cheers man I'll have to check out how this would fare
I guess this formation may be useful for emergency rear line armies in the mid-late game. where you can global recruit a few top tier units, but the rest of the army is basic. have the top tier infantry hold the front of the box, while the rest of the army does it's thing.
That's a great point, you can use your limited elite units up front where they can do some serious damage and the weaker troops can hold back and protect their flanks, everyone's got an important role!
I am currently playing Kislev campaign so will try this out.
Should be effective against every demon faction but Tzeentch.
Empire, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Cathay will decimate it with artillery fire.
This would be great for early game Kislev, particularly against all the Norscan Marauders armies. Those Marauder Horsemen sure do love to flank around and cause trouble
Ok so i had been doing this forever not realizing i was using a historic formation 😂... thought i was just cheasing the game
I dont think that tactic had a fight against demons in mind when it was invented abck in the day...
You should try that in Rome 2 with the DEI mod, it is the essential mod to play that game historically while having fun
Also, Silverhelms are made for charging, NOT prolonged combat :)
Another point, i would not have taken the Reavers and the handmaiden and would have focussed on more/stronger frontline troops and maybe an artillery
Have you ever considered using another total war game for these tests? I was playing shogun 2 today, and after recruiting some matchlock ashigaru I wondered how they'd work in a historical formation. Also, historical total war games seem to put more emphasis on morale and fatigue than the warhammer series.
I know a lot of these would be more effective with the older Total Wars, however I don't know how effective those vids would be on my channel since they are far older.
@@MalleusGaming57 I see. I, for one, would be really interested. It’s hard to find good visualizations, and it’d be interesting to try those out after watching your vids.
@@dingus3725 I’m hoping to get some time to check out Pharaoh at some point and do some stuff with that
I feel like you'd also find some success with dwarfs using this formation, but that's my dwarf loving and static defense using ass being biased
A potential fun variant of this would be to use it with goblin units only, not that I'd expect any real success but hey, at least goblins are supposed to die in large numbers. A benefit to this is that your cavalry options get wider as you could go with wolf riders, squig hoppers, or wolf chariots as well as their archer variants for this.
Oh yeah Dwarfs would love this, sticking some artillery in the middle and some Irondrakes shooting out the sides would be so good! Man a Goblin Infantry Square would be hilarious! You're right it'd definitely help keep their light cav protected, hopefully the front line would actually be able to hold though haha cheers bro
I liked it, but like you said yourself, lots of units end up doing nothing.
Could you do a video of formations that work best against certain factions? Like if I am fighting a heavy monster faction, what are the best formations to use?
Or if I am fighting a heavy missile faction, what formations are best?
Obviously it depends on what faction one is playing, but like could you use empire, or high elves as standards? since they are mostly well balanced.
The "most units do nothing" part can actually be a situational benefit
Specifically, for emergency armies, that usually consist of a few Regiments of Renown or other racial emergency units like Blessed Spawnings, and then some basic, 1 turn recruit infantry and ranged.
Put the regiments of renown at the front of the box, where they do most of the fighting. The sides of the box are the lower tier infantry; their main purpose is to deal with flank overflow and be a deterrent, more than an actual wall.
Your RoR and Lord get to shoulder most of the fight, while the lower tier infantry, that would just lose if it had to fight properly protects your ranged support mostly by existing, and can remain more or less fresh for cleanup duty.
This allows you to maximize the defensive presence of your worst units, while allowing the best units opportunities to fight with fire support that they otherwise wouldn't be able to protect alone.
As an aside, for monster heavy factions, the best "formation" is just keeping distance between melee squads and ranged units, doubling up on melee infantry layers since many monsters can punch right through one unit, and preparing decentralized "traps" for monsters charging into one unit, getting encircled by another, and then focus fire on the monsters one at a time.
Shock cavalry can put in solid work cycle charging them, but, you can't really guarantee the monster will consistently expose one side of it; piling in a second squad to encircle and entrap a monster to pin it down, then shooting it until it dies is really the best strategy, and feeding your worst infantry to monsters you aren't focusing on yet, or buying time with heroes.
Keeping a unit of spears or even better halberds free, and able to hunt the monster as the entrapment unit is also beneficial.
A good example of this in practice is actually the counter example, Vampire Counts. Vampire Counts have an absolutely miserable time against monster armies because they can't do this.
Bro this all such absolutely fantastic advice! Cheers bud!
Yeah if the whole thing was made up of Lothern Seaguard than that'd be a different matter since they could all shoot. In the very early game I suppose you wouldn't quite be able to do that but could upgrade from this form to that relatively quickly. I'll look into that for sure, off the top of my head against a missile heavy faction you'll want fast units to rush them and pin them down, or stealthy units so you can approach them without taking a lot of damage. A Prinny On Break posted some great advice against monsters down below in this comment thread
I think this formation would work better in a historical title than the Warhammer setting. In Warhammer, artillery and spells are spammable. This discourages the idea of putting units in dense formations. Your front line was decimated so fast because it was nuked by spell and artillery.
In historical titles, the army would be more focused on cavalry as it is usually the strongest unit in the game. That is when this formation shines.
Absolutely, pretty much all of the historical tactics I've tried out on the channel would work better in the older historical titles, but part of the fun for me is seeing how well (or poorly) they perform in a fantasy setting such as Warhammer
Can you try a total calvary build with kislev, based on Polish-Lithuanian tactics.
That's definitely something I'm going to be looking into, I've really wanted to learn more about the Winged Hussars
Interesting experiment but flawed. I think you should have used only light cavalry or fewer silverhelms. The square is good when you can't or don't want to contest the flanks. Having the silverhelm holding a flank nullified the purpose of the square.
I thought about just doing Reavers but I kinda wanted to hint towards the Byzantine emphasis on Heavy Cav with the Cataphracts through the Silver Helms. That is a good point though, I'll have to try it out with an army with a heavy focus on Light Cav
It's regrettable that there's no tabletop game that allows for such strategies.
Whenever I get to playing The Old World I'm really interested in seeing if things like this will work in that. It'd be certainly workable in the Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game since each individual model can move around on its own so you can really set up some legit formations
Is this supposed to be tagmata (emperor's army) or themata (province army)? Also pretty sure Byzantine was more calvary focused at this time
I don't know enough about the Byzantine military to be able to answer that, though I am looking forward to learning more about them. I added in the 3 Silver Helms to at least suggest to their Cavalry focus as well.
@MalleusGaming57 Ok, I know because Byzantine history was a required course for my Pastoral school
woo
yee
These formations are pointless when you have flying units with massive aoe, or heroes and lords or big units that can ignore your spearmen and push through to the archers. Many things in real life just doesn't work well in this game due to fantasy.
Still fun
You should do a formations video on historical tw even compare them to wh3 to even show the community that was introduced with the wh series. Rome 2 with divide et empera mod comes to mind. They have proper formation even a retreat button i believe so that your units can step back to rest without falling to death like they introduced in tw pharaoh, not to mention longer battles where formations actually matter. Just tit for tat
That would be very interesting, I haven't played Pharaoh but with the update I've been meaning to look into it. Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57 I didn't say to play pharaoh mate just that mechanic is in mods of older games, I never played pharaoh or troy maybe when they are at 5eur in 10years lol.
WH3 AI is in such a sorry state its painful to watch. You should try these tactics wit human players.
It's definitely something I'd keep in my back pocket when playing against another person, having the wherewithal to protect yourself against a surround is very important
a horrible formation even vs AI. way too many casualties