My Thoughts On The 3.0 Update [Them's Fightin' Herds]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2022
- Here are some of my thoughts about the newest Them's Fightin' Herds update, which turned out to be the most controversial one so far.
You can watch me play live at / enmadarei
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Thanks for watching 💜 - เกม
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I don't think about this stuff too much because it makes my brain hurty but I definitely do notice the game feeling a lot more basic and less exciting than before, regarding the flow of gameplay at least. It seems like matches that could be close and intense are often lopsided because once someone is in disadvantage, it is SO SO hard for them to get out. Granted it used to be the other way around as you said, with how often people could just whip out a CC as far as I know and turn the tables. I mean that's what I've heard but I still haven't messed with Cross-Canter too much so I don't have the most educated opinion on that. ._. But tbh what 3.0 brought to the table isn't a good solution to that since that ridiculous defense that people could harness as a result of CC, I'd imagine, only really affected people who knew/understood its value. I feel like I'm kind of addressing the elephant in the room if I say "CC is only used by higher level players for the most part" but the nerfs to defense in this update aren't just to CC. They are to tech rolling more than anything imo and that limits the counterplay that can happen across ALL levels of play. So rather than fixing the problems many high levels might have experienced with defense being on steroids previously for them, now offense is on steroids for EVERYONE. I'm not saying I want any problems this game has to be relegated to really dedicated and skilled players at all, I just think it kinda sucks that now every player, including those really skilled ones, have to deal with a different, seemingly even worse problem LMAO
All that said, this video was very well presented and made its point well. A largely community driven game such as TFH really benefits from dialogue about what can make it better in my opinion, and I think you're providing a whole lot of that right now. I want to see this game become amazing too, it is a very important thing to me as well. So I don't think I can really express properly how much I appreciate your efforts to provide this level of constructive criticism to it that can make its future better. Thank you so much for that, Enma :)
💜
You have no idea how Important I think this comment and all of your points really, truly are.
@@EnmaDarei so apparently a group of seals is called a herd and I think that’s cool since they aren’t ungulates like most other herd animals but rather carnivora pinnipedimorpha pinnipediformes pinnipedia
Nerfing defensive options was a mistake, especially with a wave of new players coming in when the game hits consoles, who will find themself on defense for most of their games while learning how to play.
Just wanted to say I really appreciate more analytical videos like this, even if it isn't your usual content.
I like careful, strategic 'thinky' play in video games. Even if I'm not great at it. Less Mashy, More Thinky in TFH.
You have no idea how happy this comment makes me. Thank you!
I'm really glad you like the video.
The changes to tech rolling is absolutely baffling. As a rushdown player, I already found chasing and punshing tech rolls easy. It was actually probably the most prominent part of how I played before. Hell, I did it to you a lot back when I played more actively. Now, I legitimately see no point in tech rolling at all, which means you have to just hold all the BS that comes your way from, say, Pom or Pap, or any of the other endless amounts of sauce this game allows, because you either tech in place and try to react, or you roll, and get punished easier than before.
Yeah, hell, I love to tech chase people and I play Velvet. And also there's nothing more satisfying than knowing you opponent is gonna try to roll into reversal and flipping it on them by blocking and erasing half of their bar with a CH combo. This is such a downgrade for both sides, honestly.
@@EnmaDarei I definitely agree. While I love the level 3s, it doesn't make up for how much more stiff the game feels with that change, and how pushblocking has become that much weaker, making smother playstyles all too overwhelming. Here's hoping M6 pays attention
I know not everyone will agree with my views, and that's fine. So please let's keep the dicussion civil.
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Yeah I understand Enma I wouldn’t want my favorite game to go bad and discussions are important for that reason
Hey, great video and thanks for voicing this! This patch is the most controversial and I am personally loving the conversation its bringing because it's ACTUALLY bringing more conversation and voices speaking up instead of just people staying silent which is the worst. This is very good because the changes before this haven't been impactful enough to actually have people be THIS vocal and this indifferent on changes.
I actually agree with most things you said in this video ESPECIALLY about defense needing a bit more tweaking as tech rolls do feel useless which wasn't what I personally wanted and CC lockout feeling iffy. (I also have been saying the things I have about velvet for years so I definitely know the feeling velvet players have).
Although I don't agree with all, you made yourself very clear and concise and actually mirrored some sentiments I had about the change. Things can and will be tweaked over time so it's nothing to worry about, but just know there is hope to find a middle ground for the game being competitively viable and also fun for the casual audience. Just need to have more people to ACTUALLY speak up on how they feel to bounce ideas.
Hey, thanks a ton! 100% agree that people need to be more vocal about it. I don't really care about people agreeing with my views, I only care about people discussing it, that's the most important thing. That's the only way things will move forward and improve, and I definitely have hope in M6, I know for sure things will change and be tweaked, and I know they'll do their best.
I was just talking with Aaron about these things, too. He also mirrors the sentiment of people needing to be more vocal.
I can only hope people do start engaging on these discussions more, that's probably one of the things I'm the most worried about, in all honesty.
DUDE you close to 1k OMG . I want this game so bad also I GOTTA SUB YOU DOING GRAT HOMIE!
Thank you for making this video, Enma. It was very well-written, and nails exactly how I feel about the update. To be brutally honest, my opinion of 3.0 is that it did little else but take things away from the game. Character changes were minimal despite system changes with enormous implications for how the game is played on both offense and defense; and tech rolling in particular felt like they took it out behind the shed and shot it. I also wouldn't even call it an option anymore, because at best you're still stuck blocking afterward, and at worst it's even easier to punish than it was in 2.0, when it was already VERY easy to do so. Level 3 supers look great, but the CC changes pretty much make them nonexistent in many cases. Another issue I've seen is that your PB strength is reduced if you use it multiple times; how much its strength is reduced, and when your PB strength returns, is very unclear. Mane6 added this variable mechanic that can sometimes be the difference between getting hit or getting a punish, and they neglected to add any way to visually see how it works.
As it stands, I've played the game pretty hardcore for three years now, and I'd rather go back and play beta than 3.0. TFH has made me feel many different emotions over those three years. It's changed me as a competitive player and as a person. I've grown because of it. I've met two of my best friends because of it. I went from a classic MOBA player who cried fowl when he lost to someone who picks themselves up and fucking gets better. And with how the game feels after 3.0, I don't know if I will continue playing. I hate feeling this way because of how much TFH has changed my life, but when I could go play other FGs like Strive instead of dealing with these changes, which only serve to limit what the player can do alongside giving offense and defense both a much more linear thought process than before, I have a hard time choosing TFH instead.
Well, 3.0 is ok for me
Oh cool, I found you on TH-cam. I’m the Tianhuo player that got bodied for nearly 30 games straight earlier today. I had lots of fun and learned a bit!
-Handler TMD
Welcome to my channel!
I agree with all your points Enma, as I've heard them from you before, lol. Good video, well voiced.
One criticism though (and I see this alot in video essays) that I don't like, and I'm not sure if it's just a me thing.
For the scenes 5:05 and 9:03, there are back to back comparison shots along with a line of text to read. Personally, it's a pretty difficult for me to read the text, analyze the clips, and also listen to what you're saying all at the same time without having to pause the video or go back multiple times. Alot of stuff to look at and listen to in ten seconds.
Again, may just be a me thing.
Yeah, I thought that'd be the case for many people, I tried to limit text on screen as much as possible because of that, but I also didn't want to make the script too long or disrupt the flow of the video too much. I decided to keep it like that for those sections because this platform lets you pause and rewind the video whenever you want, but I know it can be an issue and I always try to keep it to a minimum as much as possible. It's definitely not just a you thing.
I'm sure if I spent maybe one or two more days I could've made it work without that, but I wanted to get this finished, I spent a lot of time on it as is.
Great video!
Thanks!
It was a really interesting video ! I discovered a lot of changes I didn't notice while playing. Personally I find the update very empty, if you remove the lvl3s, there aren't a lot of new features and doesn't feel like a "major" update. But despite that it still make me want to play the game more
The update was indeed very lackluster when it comes to content, especially after we had to wait for so long without any patches to speak of in the interim.
That combined with how many technical issues it also had just made this turn into probably the roughes and most controversial TFH update to date. It's very unfortunate.
Excellent video and I agree with all of your points. I main a far more aggressive character and really, the nerfs to defense aren't even fun to me either. There's far less to think about on offense and as a result it makes the game feel far more autopiloty.
One thing I'll add is I personally believe that instead of nerfing CC directly, they should've simply offered more counterplay against it. Being able to properly bait and punish a CC when read would've made it less oppressive without completely gutting it as well. I feel like some kind of new parry mechanic would've helped in this aspect, adding another layer of mixups instead of actually removing one completely.
Yeah, I really think the main issue with CC is not so much how powerful it is, but rather how inconsistent it is to bait/punish.
I do believe that's the main reason it feels "noninteractive."
Because even with how powerful it is, anyone who just spams CC mindlessly will have a bad time. I'm probably one of the players people mention the most when talking about CC, and even though I used to use it more than most players before 3.0, I had to always be very thoughtful about WHEN I used it.
This very strongly summerizes a lot of my thoughts in a nicely edited and well spoken package :) and I hope that your thoughts get taken to heart by mane6
Thank you!
Interesting -- I haven't really played in 3.0 but I would have assumed they would IMPROVE tech roll from 2.0, as from what I remember the go-to was neutral tech + backdash was king and there was no point to tech roll even in 2.0. The fact they would make it even LESS appealing is odd IMO.
Cross canter was a mixed bag in 2.0, I feel like meter was so easy to get that you could just keep doing it over and over. Maybe just put CC on a timer and remove the meter lock after using it.
Good video Enma I remember you were one of the most challenging opponents to fight in 2.0 so I definitely respect your opinion from the time you've put in.
This is really interesting to hear after listening to the opinions of the folks from the community I usually hang around with and their thoughts, where they felt like meter Economy has ravaged everyone else in the cast besides Velvet, who builds so much meter anyway and has bar-none the best level 3 specifically because of the tech roll situation you discussed being able to create checkmate situations.
I do agree that I felt the robust defensive options of TFH were something I personally enjoyed about the game and I'd love to ask Nappy and the QA team what their thought process was behind tech roll change.
Hey, though, you got your wish that Paprika's meter gain is buried deep beneath the earth thanks to the 3.1 change to Multi-hit meter gain.
Funny thing about Velvet supposedly having the best lvl 3 is that no one in their right mind would use it in any serious situation because you can get way better damage with lvl 1 and extra magic with level 2. Even for Velvet, hoarding your meter for it is not worth it 99% of the time.
Unfortunately with 3.1 they also buried the defensive options even more, and also Velvet extra hard; because fuck her, I guess.
Would the long story short of this video be... Whoever secures a position of advantage first as at least 99% chance of winning?
I understand why you think the way you do about this patch, and I just wanna say that I agree with all of it. A lot of it I have noticed in my own time playing with 3.0, and it sucks for players and people who love the game, such as myself.
I always thought the ideal fighting game would make me feel pressure from my opponent every second.
Which begs the question if the long combos that I assume Killer Instinct pioneered should just have taken the long combo system to its grave on the spot in 1995.
Or maybe just make the combo/juggle decay more aggresive.
Honestly, as an outsider to TFH, it feels like the devs made this update to test the waters more than anything. Which isn't an entirely bad thing, but i feel as if they could of taken the TF2 route, back when it got updates, Valve would release patch notes detailing what they would add, buff, and nerf months before the actual release. People could give feedback, and Valve would take it into consideration.
In either case, at least there's a lot of discussion about it, which is good for the TFH devs, especially since they're a smaller studio, since that gives them a plenty of information on how the could balance and restructure the game in the future.
What I believe happened, and this is mostly speculation, is that since they got recently acquired by a new publisher, they were putting pressure on Mane6 to release a new update under a pretty strict deadline, so they didn't have the time to test and develop it as well as they would've liked to. This update also had a ton of bugs and technical issues, besides the balancing, which I didn't talk about on the video because I really wanted to focus on balancing more than anything else, but that also leads me to believe they were under a lot of pressure to meet the deadline, I'm hoping this is just growing pains from being under a bigger, more strict publisher, but I hope it does lead to a lot of improvement in the future, since now they also have more funds because of it.
I'm amazing there's a person even talking about it as the game has become relevant in the fighting game community. All I see on youtube to videos of the specials on here of this year. This update does more harm then good as it takes a way from the game then add, taking defensive options is a terrible but understandable. Them fixing a problem by nerfing everything else, two wrongs don't make a right. It's sad this game is still pretty much dead on players as it can never get pass 60 total players online on steam. Never to really get any new ones. The game is filled with expert to pro players. Newbies or casuals don't belong or way to intimidated to player as there going to just lose every battle there in. Hopefully this game coming to consoles will revitalize interest.
Yeah, I'm one of the few people who's been talking and making content for this from the beginning. They tried to address some of the issues with 3.0 by making more changes and releasing 3.1, a tiny bit of them were good and I'm surprised it took this long to do. But the majority of the changes are just weird and baffling, some of the changes feel like they conflict with each other in terms of the direction they're trying to take the game towrds.
I'm still playing and streaming the game, and still having fun with it, but it's certainly much more linear and less engagin than it used to be, feels like a straight downgrade.
The funny thing is you're saying most players in the game are the high level players but I think it's been quite the opposite the last couple months, 90% of the people I see in lobbies as of late is players with low playtime/experience. Which means a lot of the times I end up just standing around in the lobbies doing nothing or spectating because most people won't play with me, or I don't want to feel like I'm bullying them.
Agreed on lock. It is a little much
Welp, i kinda agree with you that the update is weird and unnecessary. But...i had a hard feelings about the review. I encounter the problem that you said and actually agree with you. But the review is somehow...weird, i think? Maybe it start at you said pointing out the problems to let the dev improving the game which is ok, but the review is giving me, 'the game is bad, so dont buy and play it' feelings. It also have the same feelings when you said the game is trash after 3.0 update at the stream. For me, beside the game has the problem, it is still good and more fun to play after 3.0 update.
Dont get me wrong though, your review and sream are pretty good so keep on going since you almost reach 1k sub. Maybe i just overreact and nitpicking
In all honesty if you asked me right after 3.0 I would've said the game is okay. But, after every single patch/update/change made since then, I do strongly recommend AGAINST buying it sadly, I don't think it's worth it, especially since it went up in price for a game that is just an overall worse experience.
I agree with everything you said except the end where you said that Velvet got hit the worst. Velvet is the strongest character right now, she has multiple moved to push back opponents, a move with the biggest hit box in the game that also pushes her away from her opponent when she uses it and hits overhead, and lots of other dumb overpowered stuff. If anything Velvet has the best defense in the game, no other character has moved like that. Not to mention, she also has projectiles which make it hard to even get close to her.
Calling Velvet the strongest character right now is ridiculous, she's never been so, and this patch certainly makes her even less so. Sounds like you're taking about shatter C, which is the slowest overheard in the game, very easy to block and punish, although that move doesn't really push her back from her opponent. All of her other specials are also slow and unsafe.
I guess wind pushes opponents back, but certainly doesn't hurt the opponent. Maybe super? But that's a super move.
@@EnmaDarei The last time Mane6 did balance changes she won the next competition for a reason; she has so many tools to keep opponents away and stop them from doing anything. (and she's also OP as fuck) Her ice floor(?? I don't know the names) move also pushes her back and hits literally halfway across the screen. I don't think you're giving her enough credit. Think about every other character. What do they have that compares to moves the push you away from the enemy and also have giant hotboxes? Nothing because it doesn't exist for the rest.
Also if you want to talk about "cast aside characters" that are "abused" by mane six then you're certainly not addressing the Elephant in the room which is Pom. Sure she got some changes but one of them was a nerf to her best puppy (the flying one,) and in this type of fighting game Puppet Masters won't do well anyways. Pom gets used way less in competitions as well, which says a lot
@@cuddlecakes7153 I agree that Pom needs more attention from M6, but not because she's bad, actually the opposite. Pom is probably the strongest character in the game right now. Her jB is a ridiculously strong tool, especially combined with her airdash and float; jC is also pretty good and big, and she can move her dogs around while she's getting hit, for some reason. The skill floor for her is the highest, so not a lot of people play her, but saying she's the worst is also kind of ridiculous. She even got 2nd place at the last grand stampede. Velvet has never really gotten anything at any of the major tournaments. It's always Ole and Arizona.
Big hitboxes don't really mean much if the moves are slow and unsafe, certainly don't make a character OP, not on their own. Tian's air vdash has a ridiculously huge hitbox. Pom jC, many of Ole's moves have big hitboxes, Arizona's stomp C is certainly very big as well.
Not sure what you mean by ice floor, maybe shatter A which is slow and unsafe, doesn't push the opponent away that much, unless it hits; or DP which is alright, but also very easy to just jump and punish, although that one doesn't push the opponent away on block either.
@@EnmaDarei If Pom is so overpowered then why hasn't she gotten first place yet? Wouldn't that mean that every TFH player collectively decided not to reach her max potential?
@@cuddlecakes7153 I'm not even good at TFH so take that disclaimer before I say this, but if you think all that determines how viable a character is is how they place at tournaments, well... No offense, but I think you need to reach a more nuanced understanding of how fighting game meta develops. It is not and has never been as simple as, "the character who wins the most tournaments is the best character." There's a lot more to meta and what characters are viable in a competitive setting than that. A good example of this is Jigglypuff in Melee. When the first tier list dropped, Jiggs placed 17 on it. As of the most recent tier list, it is top tier, placing at 3, and it took around two whole years for people in that community to even reach that conclusion in the first place. This isn't an isolated instance, either; As far as I've seen, it is normal and expected for tier lists and performance of characters at tournaments to change wildly as years go by. TFH is even more susceptible to this phenomenon than most, due to its incredibly small community and how often it is hit with updates and/or balance changes, which forces people at the forefront of meta development to go back to the drawing board often. Even though fighting game players are always looking for new ways to develop counterplay and push characters to their limits, the simple truth is that this development takes a lot of time, energy, and effort, and happens very slowly most of the time.
As it stands, I feel the reason Pom hasn't placed all that much at tournaments is because she is a rather... intimidating character to pick up, learn, and get good with. Puppet characters often have that effect on people. But the fact that not many people place at tournaments with her isn't indictive of her being bad or unviable in the slightest. As it stands, the fact that she can LITERALLY MOVE AROUND AND POSITION HER DOGS WHILE IN THE MIDDLE OF A COMBO/HITSTUN is a strength that's very hard for any other member of the roster to get around. Opening up your opponent to put them in a combo isn't just about depleting their health; in fact I'd argue the more important benefit of this is the fact that you can put them in a defensive position and force them to make choices that have the potential to open them up even more. But if you're fighting a Pom who knows this, they can set up their dogs freely while you're comboing them and make it so YOU'RE the one at a disadvantage, because after your combo is over, Pom now doesn't really even have to think that much to open you up and get the advantage again because you have to be immediately on the defensive after Pom can act freely again. And in my opinion, this is not only bad character design because it literally punishes you for keeping your opponent in a combo, it also is busted as shit because in a nutshell it means any Pom that takes advantage of this ability will almost never have to worry about being pressured further after the combo is done. No character in the game as far as I can see really has such a strong tool to completely negate being pressured or at a disadvantage.
I used to be able to get out of corners iwth Pom's dash easilly and now I feel like that's impossible. I'm almost positive they nerfed it. When I'm cornered, I'm just fucked. Sometimes I just put the controller down and wait till the fight is over. I usually wonder if my opponent even notices.
I also don't think it's likely I will ever be able to use Pom's 3 super effectively because it's super counterable. An expensive AND counterable counter. Joy.
I sometimes feel like the game only rewards offensive behavior. Which, okay, makes sense that would be the most rewarding but there's more to fighting than just hitting them. It's not like they hold still for it or anything.
Yeah, Pom's lvl 3 is pretty much unusable in its current state. A 15 frame startup counter is kind of a joke.
I think Counter Catter should have been a third bar. 6:02
I used to see TFH videos without a Level 3 Super and their addition is... unnecessary. I know it was a thing in Fighting is Magic and TFH wanted to include it 2 years ago. I wonder if there will be tournament without Level 3 Super.
I don't get the implication of Pom's Level 3 Super design wise. The dog that always follow her is constantly happy and show no worries when she got hurt or KO (Only Chopper show emotions). Heck, Fluttershy's Angel shows more concern than him. Pom's dog will do everything to unleash her potential. It show by pushing her into the battle against her protest and the idle animation when she tries to run but her dog expression told her to stay. So, in the Level 3 Super, he plays dead through counter (it's like he says: hit me! hit me!) but didn't expect that will hurt a lot. And it turn out he is fine, no bruise or weakened state. She doesn't scold him for it, she is glad he is okay.
It's by this one Level 3 Super that their inclusion is questionable.
I like the new Tianhuo's stage thought.
I agree with this, hopefully Mane 6 will listen. Another problem I have is that Level 3 Supers damage scale too heavily for the amount of effort needed to use them.
I'm okay with the scaling, level 3 supers were never meant to be strong tools, they were never meant to be "worth it," we were told that when they first teased them. They're just "for fun."
If anything, I think they do WAY too much damage raw or as a second hit.
@@EnmaDarei Ehhh, agree to disagree. If they were intended to be flashy and never seriously used, why bother implementing them in the first place?
@@tudoraragornofgreyscot8482 That's fair enough, I just don't think there's a way you could make them be "worth it" without making them busted, considering lvl 1 is usually your damage dealer and 2 gives you VERY good utilities for your character. Most of the time that means you're better off comboing into Lvl1>Lvl2>Lvl1. As I mentioned earlier, what we were told was they were meant as a show-off mechanic to use when you're already winning pretty decisively, and not meant to be "strong" nor "worth it."
I understand why you feel they should be better when they require you to hoard your meter, but I also think you shouldn't be trying to do that, really. And I also think they do maybe too much damage for what they're supposed to be.
So yeah, agree to disagree, and it certainly is important to have people voice their opinions 😄
Velvet scrub just mad your not carried anymore lamno
Ok, so this video is kinda based. However I do not understand what the sorry pieces are supposed to represent. Like Velvet is bad, but red is also bad. I just dont understand like are you saying that you are a communist if you are good. Also why is Velvet so happy to be surrounded by communist coconut heads.This just simple does not add up man and I have lost all respect for this ambiguity. (pls fix this)
TFH used to be the best fighting game Ive ever played but now I think it definitely fell off due to these incomprehensible changes 🤔
Well, the changes are weird but i dont think tfh will fell off
The game is still good even though the update
I'm not familiar with the game, but it sounds like they tried to make it so you earned things rather then having 12 ways to break out and avoid damage. To make it friendly and rewarding to new players while still allowing skilled players to be effective.
As is this game looks super unappealing from what you described it as and makes it seem only for super tryhard fighting game fans with no entry-mid level which leads to people flat out avoiding the game.
You talked about the game's health and uniqueness and giving up some of the top for the bottom-mid can be healthy. If a game is pure competitive high skill focused it stops.
Edit: It makes the game more engaging for low-mid skill players which is normally the most common skill types for worse and better.
Before this update I used to describe this game as a really nice entry point to fighting games for anyone who isn't familiar with them, because it was easy to understand and get into, but it had tons of depth if you decided you wanted to dig for it.
But 3.0, in my opinion, removes a big portion of that depth, and just makes the game way more linear for both offence and defence, so I think it's probably more apealing to newer players now, because once you get a little bit of momentum your oponent is gonna have a pretty hard time breaking it, so you can just press buttons without having to think about consequences as much anymore, while at the same time making the game more unapealing, and even kinda boring for people of my skill level (although I know not everyone in the community agrees with that sentiment)
Weird changes! At least add push block
the game has always had pushblock, but they also nerfed that along with every other defensive nerf.
@@EnmaDarei so dumb
Nerd
The update is disappointing, as always.
Nah, the update is ok and its not dissapointing, it just feels a little bit...odd
Instead, the update is more fun than before