The phenomenon where the strings take time to settle in after being untensioned and then retensioned is due to what is called anelastic recovery. Nylon is a viscoelastic material - it stretches under tension due to a combination of elasticity and creep. Nylon has logarithmic creep, so its rate falls with time until it becomes negligible and the string remains in tune. When you untension the string, the elastic component of its stretch immediately recovers and over time, a significant fraction of the creep also recovers. Hence, when you retension the string, it will start to creep again and go out of tune. The longer you leave a string untensioned for, the greater the anelastic recovery - if you immediately retension a string, the effect is smaller than if you leave it for a few hours.
I just stumbled (thank you TH-cam algorithm) on this channel. I'm not a repair person, but as a player (hopefully not horrible), I'm always interested in learning how my guitar works. I loved that Susan wasn't afraid to try different approaches on the fly... and wasn't above showing her "mis-directions". That is the sign of a real craftsperson. I don't "like and subscribe" channels often, but this one immediately got that treatment. Thank you, Susan, for what you do!
There was so much good information in this video, I absolutely enjoyed this! As an amateur luthier it's videos like this that really help improve my skills.
So good seeing someone get creative and try different techniques on the spot on the fly as a repairman myself for 10 years it made my day seeing this video so many great ideas and tricks total brain candy learned alot and made me smile to see a great repair done well I'll be useing these ideas in future thank you Soo much your are fantastic keep it up
I know this is an old video but I've found it fascinating and very informative! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am by no means an accomplished musician but I enjoy playing both classical and acoustic guitars: I believe this is by far the best video on intonation I've ever come across. You did a wonderful job explaining what needs to be done and, crucially, why. An instant subscribe for me!
Nylon strings take time to stabilise due to the anchoring needing to bed in at both the tuning machine and the bridge anchor points. The 'knots' are slipping slightly after being disturbed. You can reduce the stabilisation time in two ways. 1: At the bridge, link the ends of one strings under its neighbour. This has two effects; it prevents the end of the string 'buzzing' on the soundboard and prevents the string from slipping as much as the knot tightens. At the back of the bridge I anchor the E under the A, the A under the D, the D under the G, the G under the D, and the B under the G, and the E under the B. It's a bit fiddly at first, but the effect both looks good (neat and tidy) and adds stability to the anchoring. 2: At the tuning machine, pass the string over the top of the barrel of the anchor point and up through the hole from the bottom. Then pass the end over the string and back through the hole. Now pull it tight. The string will self anchor and usually does not slip at all. You will likely need to cut the string much shorter than before and need fewer winds to hold the string. The fewer winds you can get away with, the more stable the anchoring. I rarely have more than two winds on the wound strings and three on the solid strings. One other thing. I have found the composite G string in the D'Addario EJ45C set to be especially good at both smoothing the transition from the wound D to the solid G string and compensating for the effect of the relative thickness of the G string.
Great, thanks a lot for this video! Nylon strings take longer to settle because of the shape memory of the material (same as steel strings but they are much more rigid than nylon so it takes much less time). A good cheat to make it faster is 1) stretch each string on all the length (sadly I can’t show how it’s done here but I’m sure there are some videos) and then 2) tune the strings about 1.5 semitones higher, let it sit for few minutes and then do it again with the strings (usually the bass strings) that dropped all the way below the correct tuning - just 1 semitone is enough then. Repeat few more times but brand new strings will settle within like 15-20 minutes this way. I remember during studies at the conservatoire we couldn’t possibly have time to wait any longer, and actually we’re even dropping the tension of bass strings intentionally (big time, till they get floppy, for maybe half an hour) in the morning before a concert to make the strings sound better - if you then tune them up maybe a semitone higher, they just drop right where you want them in few minutes
I have a Yamaha G-50a and recently replaced the bridge, and then used a bone saddle and nut, to get rid of the old nylon parts... I am not a pro by any means, but did a substantial amount of research before getting into this effort, and having an extensive mechanical background, with some drafting and musical background, I feel I should be able to do this... My project came out wonderfully, and this video of yours was instrumental in helping me achieve the end result I obtained... The guitar is absolutely wonderful, and I have friends who are mesmerised by the sound and accuracy of this guitar... Mac
Very interesting information and well explained video regarding the intonation. * I am an electric guitar player (I studied jazz for many years) and very used to lighter strings by comparison to most acoustic players. I have an elusive .018 gauge plain steel G string (it is sharp on a steel string acoustic at the 12th) and the bone saddle has no room for compensation. If I tune the G string to pitch, at the 12th fret it's very sharp. * The only way I could fix the issue (so far) was to compensate the nut end by in essence bring the nut closer to the first fret by inserting a small metal piece similar to a zero fret (but it is only on the G string...the other strings are fine). * Note: This issue manifested after I lowered the saddle height (it's my second saddle attempt made from bone) as the action was extremely high on this guitar. On my first saddle attempt, it was too low, but strangely the intonation was not an issue. * I am going to try making one more saddle with the height measurement in between the two previous saddles. If you have any suggestions as to how string action height affects intonation, please feel free to share your opinion. * Again, very nice video and very well done. I am subscribing as I enjoyed your style. All the best. Philip NYC Area
Wow! I thought I saw some detailed TH-cam tutorials on guitar intonation, but this really goes above and beyond! Thanks. Definitely worth a like and a subscribe!
Excellent! Intonation issues make so much more sense now that I know about the 'nul zone' - finally, after over forty years of playing! Thank you. You are a great teacher.
OMG, I nearly fainted when I saw your guitar. We have one exactly like it purchased in 1977 or so which makes it about 45 years old, nearly the same as yours. I’ve been having problems with an odd “buzzing” (not exactly fret rattle) on the G and D strings, the neck isn’t bowed and string height off the fretboard is fine. None of the repair shops can find anything wrong but it drives me crazy. Anyway, sorry to ramble, thank you so much for the informative video. I love our guitar which has gotten mellower with age, it was so nice to see it pop up on TH-cam!
I have been unable to get upstairs to my workshop due to my having Parkinsons, with the result that my latest guitar has not been finished and is highly unlikely to be now that I am looking at my final demise, so I was wondering if you would like to finish it for me. As I said in an earlier message it is an experimental guitar with the front grain radiating from the bridge being made up of 30 triangular pieces of cedar reinforced with a piece of cedar going from the sound hole to the lower bout with two struts either side of the soundhole strengthening the top. Hoping to hear from you in the not too distant future from Barry Dycret, the guitar maker.
great tutorial about adding an overstep to the saddle. I have a Classical where the G+B strings needed more saddle at the front (fretboard side). And the Bass 'E' string needed more saddle at the back (side where string goes through bridge). I did it by having a perfectly 'flat and square' piece of bone (set to the correct saddle slot thickness and depth). Then, i superglued bone pieces where the saddle needed to be extended (giving it 24hrs to dry). And shaped them as needed. It worked, with less manufacturing hassles. But, i think i will try to make the stepped saddle ..just for the challenge :)
My classical guitar maker intones both the nut and the saddle so that each string is very slightly further back or forward on both the nut and saddle. He made me a classical and a flamenco guitar and each tunes and plays more in tune than any other nylon string I have ever played. It is such a pleasure to play up and downt he fingerboard and have the notes all sound in tune.
What I ended up doing on mine years ago was filing off the slot completely and replaced it with two pyramid shaped pieces of wood in which I carved out a trough and added a little brass dowel to replace the saddle. Now I have a split movable saddle that I can adjust for intonation at will.
Thanks very much for the video, which I used as a guide to help me solve a similar issue with my old Takamine guitar that I wanted to give to a 10-year old just learning to play, but couldn't until the intonation was fixed. The bridge was too far back and intonation was too flat around the upper frets, so I used a blank bone slab to create an L-shaped saddle to shorten the scale length and sharpen the fretted notes, just like yours (except in reverse). For future reference, I found a formula to calculate the setback (or setforward) required, and there's no need to measure the length between frets. SCALE LENGTH / 17.817 = FIRST FRET DISTANCE (FFD) FFD x INTONATION ERROR (at the 12th fret) = compensation required (100 cents per semitone, so 1 cent flat/sharp = ± 1% INTONATION ERROR) Example... for a guitar with a scale length of 650 mm, and a string which is 5 cents sharp at the 12th fret: 650 mm / 17.817 = 36.48201156199136 36.48201156199136 x .05 = 1.824100578099568 setback required: about 1.82 mm
Excellent explanation on achieving proper intonation on a guitar. Very elegant work on saddle compensation with minimal specialty tool use. I was quite impressed. It's nice to see skills and grace in your execution. As an amateur luthier who has just completed my first complete restoration and setup on a 1970 Ariana guitar made in Japan (guitar was tossed into a bin and I rescued her). Ive spent 3 months on lockdown working her back to playable condition and your video was very helpful to me on achieving better intonation on this project. It is very rewarding. Thanks for posting Susan!
Having spent the last three years since retirement learning to build electric guitars, including winding my own pups, I recently bought a made in Romania Montana Spanish acoustic hybrid to learn on, inexpensive $43 shipped.. It has a flat fingerbord and is 43 mm at the nut. I have done a fret replace (flat fingerboard so much easier than radius) cut a new bone nut and saddle to replace plastic. I was wondering about intonation on acoustic guitars (Spanish style and other), wow now I understand so much more. I loved to see the struggles, I share these experiences with you and now you with me, genius. I am on a limited budget, so I have to improvise my own tools and strategies to do the work. I am now a fan and a subscriber. I hope to be building an acoustic soon. I will be watching. Thanks.
Thanks for this explanation. I had often wondered why there was an adjustment on the G string of my bridge and not elsewhere on my nylon string guitar. Now I know.
Thanks, great video. Great info, going to get a classical here soon, Lol didnt know you couldnt do bends on them. It will be different from shredding on my steel string. God bless. :)
What a great explanation of intonation! Thank you Susan. I've fixed intonation problems on ukuleles a number of times like this but made the saddle by laminating two pieces of bone together with CA glue which is much easier than making from one piece of bone. Gluing surfaces need to be well prepped to get a clean join but if done well, it's hard to see the join . I haven't noticed any loss in tone - the additional saddle mass probably has more impact.
I have a very old martin paylor guitar built in 1919 and it may very well it wasnt originally a steel string guitar with very little angle on the bridge. I had know idea there was a difference. Thank you, you really know your stuff!!
1st, Cudos to you making your own saddle from a large piece of bone. 2nd, like many others, your explanation of intonation, compensation and dead zone- something I never heard discussed before, is about the best I've heard. You've probably saved my short scale steel string from being slammed against the wall. The B string is always sharp on the 12th (well they all are but B most noticeably) and I've shaved 2 compensated saddles but it's still there driving me crazy. Didn't think of using a thicker saddle with a slight overlap. That would do it. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Nothing but admiration for your knowledge and skill. On a practical theme a small affordable desktop cnc machine would cut a design such as the L bridge in a minute or two,and it would be as designed. Thanks for the video. I learned a lot.
0:50 Agustín Barrios. Una Limosna por el Amor de Dios is the intro she is playing here. An absolutely beautiful piece by one of the greatest guitarist who ever existed.
Thank you! I always scroll down to the comments section when I hear a song I like but don't know the name of hoping some legend like yourself will be there to name the song. There never actually is though 😂. Much appreciated.
Wonderful job, Susan. I realize the skills you demonstrate in this online class far exceed my technical abilities, however, I'll explain what I did about 10 years ago to fix the intonation issues with my very cheap classical guitar. Noticing that my Fender Stratocaster string saddles are configured in a staggered position, I tried to emulate the same paradigm. I proceeded to remove the bone, filled the slot with wood shavings mixed with epoxy and then Dremeled out a new slot with the desired slanted angle. It was an experiment done intuitively that somehow paid off. I'm pretty sure it's not for everybody and only to be tried on a cheap instrument in case things don't go too well. Cheers and thanks for the lesson!
I took off all the frets on a cheap old guitar . (3/4 sized Tatay with no fan braces whatsoever , also loose supporting brace under the neck end ) . I had to rebuild as it was falling to bits . Three small nails were holding the back on . To renovate the tuning I glued on bronze wire frets .Each note was worked out with a movable dummy fret ,using a Korg orchestral tuner , I fitted the bronze wire frets so every note was exactly Equal Temperament. This produced Wiggly Frets .All notes along each string perfectly in tune and not a straight fret to be seen . The frets were glued on with Evostik . To remove one just warm the fret up with a soldering iron . Bending the bronze wire is easy with wire bending pliers . Use parrallel nose pliers to lay them flat on the fretboard . I hardly had to bother with fret levelling .
A number of years back I carried out exactly this modification to a classical guitar that had intonation problems, I guess you can describe it as a shelf style saddle. The idea could have been inspired by the Earvana Nut, however it was something that I just done at the time to solve the problem. I was not aware before or since of anyone else doing this. It would be interesting to know if there is a published source endorsing this sort of modification or whether or not Susan just independently came up with it (like me).
It just makes me smile. Smile because I don’t believe I’ve ever hear someone explain is so well. Even the video still had your trial and errors of showing the challenges of clamping down the saddle while you shaped it. Unheard of! Most just edit that out, which isn’t helpful at all. Thank you for being helpful. I actually feel smarter today.
Explanation of compensation due to tension over saddle is actually first time I’ve heard that despite looking up a lot on the subject an makes perfect sense. Many thanks. Just making a nylon hybrid guitar and currently put in a 1mm compensation from high to low E on the saddle slot (most nylons just have a straight saddle and pushed back 2mm). Hopefully with careful location of bridge that’ll do for this guitar and I can improve on it if I make more.
What an amazing video. Full of information and advice. You have a natural presentation style too. I don’t quite understand the sciencey bits but got the gist. I’ve been playing guitars for well over 50 years and have had a large range of instruments. I’ve settled mostly on the nylon strung variety. Intonation issues are crazy with nearly every one I’ve had; especially with the third string. I spend around 30 minutes trying to tune to an equal temperament (whilst playing in every key), every practice session. I then have a pleasurable hour of playing the thing. It all has to be gone through the next time though… I’ve tried many makes of string and all sorts of set up ideas, but the problems are ever present. It seemed that among instrumentalists, guitarists are probably, through necessity, the most obsessive.
A bridegport-type vertical mill would cut that ledge very easily. Heavy and expensive, but worth their weight in gold. I've thought of doing this kind of saddle on my 00-18g, but everyone i talked to about it thought i was nuts. After watching this, I'm gonna give it a shot. Thanks!
that is the kind of work that i was ever looked for from a Luthier what *really* aim the perfection. thank you for share a bit of your hard, surgical and engineering work, what most will not even notice but they will want to play on it dosen't know why GOOD! please more.
The other thing is intonation is tested here on the guitar as it sits on it's back but intonation shifts when the guitar is held in play positions and so must be finally adjusted, tested in play position. The plastic is less conductive so when the strings are released the temperature of the molecules is changed and the time to stablise is long as opposed to steel strings that are conductive
There are lots of examples of classical guitars with slanted saddles - Ramirez of course and also Burguet to name a couple of very well known makers, both traditional Spanish made guitars. What I noticed with this lovely video and excellent working on the bone, was that at the end of all that work, the 'g' string was very definitely still quite sharp at the 12th fret.
Excellent video😮, about the not being able to bend on a classical guitar, I just noticed that about 2 days ago😄, so I understand that well I am still at 5:31 in the video, and I have learnt a lot already🥰 Thanks for doing this video Ma
Players are always chasing perfect intonation. The more you think about it the more of a problem it becomes. Changes in the instrument over the years, the humidity indoors vs. the humidity outdoors, string hardness, and so forth. I’ve sometimes had good luck with wound G strings. I’ll be interested to see your results once the guitar and the strings have had a little Ike to settle. Thanks for the video.
Flouro-carbon strings seem to have a higher density maybe resulting in reduced harmonicity of the string. I tried a set of them on my girlfriend's non adjusted guitar, and they have a really tight and dynamic sound, very articulated all over the neck.
This is the best intonation explanation I've seen. Thanks for showing all the trial and error attempts in finding a good way to shape the saddle. I just went through something similar in creating a shelf like that on a nut in order to intonate that. I used a couple of straight boards with sandpaper held against one of them to create a right angle as a sanding jig, with a spacer so that the nut rode above the vertical board enough to create the shelf. It took forever, and perhaps rigging up something similar with a file would be better. Holding the nut by hand was difficult and laborious. I think I would take a clue from your glueing idea but instead glue directly to a board with some hide glue (for easy reversibility). (BTW how do you feel about nut compensation?)
I used my mini-mill with a 1/8” bit to create a cantilever(L shape) in a 4mm wide stock bone saddle which enabled me to create a longer string than the existing 2mm slot would normally allow for my very stiff super high tension strings. My G string sting is 3.5 mm back 😮
1:22 The saddle compensation slant is not a steel string vs classical issue. Virtually every high quality classical guitar will also have a saddle set at a slight angle to produce compensation. If not, then it is generally a reflection of the instrument's price point.
Nylon strings and steel strings stretch differently because their molecular structures are different. Steel molecules attract one another equally in all directions, so tension is evenly distributed through the whole structure. Nylon is a ploymer where the molecules attract one another in a single direction also called "strings" so the structure is made up like an unevenly twisted rope that takes some time to even out tension where some "strings" are under greater tension than others within the structure.
The nylon molecules are only aligned that way in a string, which was formed by stretching melted nylon in one long direction. In the original solid chunk of nylon, the molecules are randomly oriented like spaghetti.
I use a string stretcher, same kind that works well with acoustic steel string guitar steel strings, and with some patience and diligence I can accelerate the string stability and get even new strings to a stable,playable state in a day and not days. In fact I can get the strings to a playable state in hours. Love those string stretcher gizmos! Have you ever tried classical trebles whicyh are steel? Titanium as I recall. They have typical nylon trebles tension so don't confuse them with acoustic steel string trebles, they are true classical trebles but made of Titanium.
Great technical advice and explanation. I was going to buy a budget classical guitar (and I mean budget). I know I can fix most issues on a steel string acoustic or electric instrument , but these guitars seem extremely restricted on things like this without the correct equipment. But thanks for the video , very helpful.
I know it’s a lot more work, but you could also remove the lifted bridge, eventually fix the fan braces that have maybe bent over time, or maybe some have come loose. And/or fix the bridge plate as well. That would take care of the forward angle that has occurred. That angle also probably raised your action quite a bit too!!
Hi! 🙂 Thanks for the very useful instructions! As well as, can you tell me what's the name of the background music on the video? 0:00 ~ 0:16 or 26:21 ~ 26:52
Great explanations. Many of us now use the thinner carbon etc G string. How does this affect bridge compensation? If one has been using the standard fatter G string should the bridge be reshaped if a thinner G string is fitted?
I'm glad you said that nylon strings can take a week to stabilize. I only just got a Nylon string guitar and thought the tuners were crap? ( I have many other elec and steel string acoustic guitars - I am not a newbie)
That was excellent, a thorough and well demonstrated explanation of intonation. Followed by an equally thorough demonstration on how to fix the problem. I was wondering if you fix other players instruments. Thanks
I have two Cordobas: Iberia Dolce (7/8 size) and CM1 (full size with a slim neck); both with GREAT intonation!! (( AND a light trussrod!)), highly recommended..., havent played them for 15 years though...
To answer your question at the end, I don't know. But I have noticed that with some guitars with well broken in strings, if you resist the urge to start tuning it first thing when you pick it up, and instead allow it to warm up, the strings automatically tune themselves.
The phenomenon where the strings take time to settle in after being untensioned and then retensioned is due to what is called anelastic recovery. Nylon is a viscoelastic material - it stretches under tension due to a combination of elasticity and creep. Nylon has logarithmic creep, so its rate falls with time until it becomes negligible and the string remains in tune. When you untension the string, the elastic component of its stretch immediately recovers and over time, a significant fraction of the creep also recovers. Hence, when you retension the string, it will start to creep again and go out of tune. The longer you leave a string untensioned for, the greater the anelastic recovery - if you immediately retension a string, the effect is smaller than if you leave it for a few hours.
Great to know. Thanks
The most intelligent discussion of intonation I've ever heard. Thanks!
it's pretty straightforward, not like you have to do geometry or physics equations.
Absolutely!! The best video by far about the issue.
Susan! Your my hero. I have been reading a lot of (very complex and incomprehensible) texts about guitar issues which you explain so simply. Thanks.
I just stumbled (thank you TH-cam algorithm) on this channel. I'm not a repair person, but as a player (hopefully not horrible), I'm always interested in learning how my guitar works. I loved that Susan wasn't afraid to try different approaches on the fly... and wasn't above showing her "mis-directions". That is the sign of a real craftsperson. I don't "like and subscribe" channels often, but this one immediately got that treatment. Thank you, Susan, for what you do!
There was so much good information in this video, I absolutely enjoyed this! As an amateur luthier it's videos like this that really help improve my skills.
So good seeing someone get creative and try different techniques on the spot on the fly as a repairman myself for 10 years it made my day seeing this video so many great ideas and tricks total brain candy learned alot and made me smile to see a great repair done well I'll be useing these ideas in future thank you Soo much your are fantastic keep it up
I know this is an old video but I've found it fascinating and very informative! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am by no means an accomplished musician but I enjoy playing both classical and acoustic guitars: I believe this is by far the best video on intonation I've ever come across. You did a wonderful job explaining what needs to be done and, crucially, why. An instant subscribe for me!
Nylon strings take time to stabilise due to the anchoring needing to bed in at both the tuning machine and the bridge anchor points. The 'knots' are slipping slightly after being disturbed. You can reduce the stabilisation time in two ways.
1: At the bridge, link the ends of one strings under its neighbour. This has two effects; it prevents the end of the string 'buzzing' on the soundboard and prevents the string from slipping as much as the knot tightens. At the back of the bridge I anchor the E under the A, the A under the D, the D under the G, the G under the D, and the B under the G, and the E under the B. It's a bit fiddly at first, but the effect both looks good (neat and tidy) and adds stability to the anchoring.
2: At the tuning machine, pass the string over the top of the barrel of the anchor point and up through the hole from the bottom. Then pass the end over the string and back through the hole. Now pull it tight. The string will self anchor and usually does not slip at all. You will likely need to cut the string much shorter than before and need fewer winds to hold the string. The fewer winds you can get away with, the more stable the anchoring. I rarely have more than two winds on the wound strings and three on the solid strings.
One other thing. I have found the composite G string in the D'Addario EJ45C set to be especially good at both smoothing the transition from the wound D to the solid G string and compensating for the effect of the relative thickness of the G string.
You need another thimbs up for that👍
Great, thanks a lot for this video! Nylon strings take longer to settle because of the shape memory of the material (same as steel strings but they are much more rigid than nylon so it takes much less time). A good cheat to make it faster is 1) stretch each string on all the length (sadly I can’t show how it’s done here but I’m sure there are some videos) and then 2) tune the strings about 1.5 semitones higher, let it sit for few minutes and then do it again with the strings (usually the bass strings) that dropped all the way below the correct tuning - just 1 semitone is enough then. Repeat few more times but brand new strings will settle within like 15-20 minutes this way. I remember during studies at the conservatoire we couldn’t possibly have time to wait any longer, and actually we’re even dropping the tension of bass strings intentionally (big time, till they get floppy, for maybe half an hour) in the morning before a concert to make the strings sound better - if you then tune them up maybe a semitone higher, they just drop right where you want them in few minutes
I have a Yamaha G-50a and recently replaced the bridge, and then used a bone saddle and nut, to get rid of the old nylon parts... I am not a pro by any means, but did a substantial amount of research before getting into this effort, and having an extensive mechanical background, with some drafting and musical background, I feel I should be able to do this...
My project came out wonderfully, and this video of yours was instrumental in helping me achieve the end result I obtained... The guitar is absolutely wonderful, and I have friends who are mesmerised by the sound and accuracy of this guitar...
Mac
Very interesting information and well explained video regarding the intonation.
*
I am an electric guitar player (I studied jazz for many years) and very used to lighter strings by comparison to most acoustic players. I have an elusive .018 gauge plain steel G string (it is sharp on a steel string acoustic at the 12th) and the bone saddle has no room for compensation. If I tune the G string to pitch, at the 12th fret it's very sharp.
*
The only way I could fix the issue (so far) was to compensate the nut end by in essence bring the nut closer to the first fret by inserting a small metal piece similar to a zero fret (but it is only on the G string...the other strings are fine).
*
Note: This issue manifested after I lowered the saddle height (it's my second saddle attempt made from bone) as the action was extremely high on this guitar. On my first saddle attempt, it was too low, but strangely the intonation was not an issue.
*
I am going to try making one more saddle with the height measurement in between the two previous saddles. If you have any suggestions as to how string action height affects intonation, please feel free to share your opinion.
*
Again, very nice video and very well done. I am subscribing as I enjoyed your style. All the best.
Philip
NYC Area
I LOVE LOVE LOVE your disc sander
Wow! I thought I saw some detailed TH-cam tutorials on guitar intonation, but this really goes above and beyond!
Thanks. Definitely worth a like and a subscribe!
Very clear explanation. Great craftsmanship in troubleshooting and execution
Wonderful video Susan. You have a talent for explaining things.
Excellent! Intonation issues make so much more sense now that I know about the 'nul zone' - finally, after over forty years of playing! Thank you. You are a great teacher.
OMG, I nearly fainted when I saw your guitar. We have one exactly like it purchased in 1977 or so which makes it about 45 years old, nearly the same as yours. I’ve been having problems with an odd “buzzing” (not exactly fret rattle) on the G and D strings, the neck isn’t bowed and string height off the fretboard is fine. None of the repair shops can find anything wrong but it drives me crazy. Anyway, sorry to ramble, thank you so much for the informative video. I love our guitar which has gotten mellower with age, it was so nice to see it pop up on TH-cam!
I have been unable to get upstairs to my workshop due to my having Parkinsons, with the result that my latest guitar has not been finished and is highly unlikely to be now that I am looking at my final demise, so I was wondering if you would like to finish it for me. As I said in an earlier message it is an experimental guitar with the front grain radiating from the bridge being made up of 30 triangular pieces of cedar reinforced with a piece of cedar going from the sound hole to the lower bout with two struts either side of the soundhole strengthening the top. Hoping to hear from you in the not too distant future from Barry Dycret, the guitar maker.
great tutorial about adding an overstep to the saddle.
I have a Classical where the G+B strings needed more saddle at the front (fretboard side). And the Bass 'E' string needed more saddle at the back (side where string goes through bridge).
I did it by having a perfectly 'flat and square' piece of bone (set to the correct saddle slot thickness and depth).
Then, i superglued bone pieces where the saddle needed to be extended (giving it 24hrs to dry). And shaped them as needed.
It worked, with less manufacturing hassles.
But, i think i will try to make the stepped saddle ..just for the challenge :)
My classical guitar maker intones both the nut and the saddle so that each string is very slightly further back or forward on both the nut and saddle. He made me a classical and a flamenco guitar and each tunes and plays more in tune than any other nylon string I have ever played. It is such a pleasure to play up and downt he fingerboard and have the notes all sound in tune.
Thanks for the explanation of intonation! Good thorough explanation of what you were doing.
Terrific video, very informative for guitar technicians. Thank you.
What I ended up doing on mine years ago was filing off the slot completely and replaced it with two pyramid shaped pieces of wood in which I carved out a trough and added a little brass dowel to replace the saddle. Now I have a split movable saddle that I can adjust for intonation at will.
Make a video of it please 🙏
I've been repairing and setting up guitars for decades and there was loads of stuff in this video that I didn't know! Excellent!
I love watching antifa get their asses kicked
Congrats! Fantastic work!
Thanks very much for the video, which I used as a guide to help me solve a similar issue with my old Takamine guitar that I wanted to give to a 10-year old just learning to play, but couldn't until the intonation was fixed. The bridge was too far back and intonation was too flat around the upper frets, so I used a blank bone slab to create an L-shaped saddle to shorten the scale length and sharpen the fretted notes, just like yours (except in reverse).
For future reference, I found a formula to calculate the setback (or setforward) required, and there's no need to measure the length between frets.
SCALE LENGTH / 17.817 = FIRST FRET DISTANCE (FFD)
FFD x INTONATION ERROR (at the 12th fret) = compensation required
(100 cents per semitone, so 1 cent flat/sharp = ± 1% INTONATION ERROR)
Example... for a guitar with a scale length of 650 mm, and a string which is 5 cents sharp at the 12th fret:
650 mm / 17.817 = 36.48201156199136
36.48201156199136 x .05 = 1.824100578099568
setback required: about 1.82 mm
A brilliant display of competence!
Excellent explanation on achieving proper intonation on a guitar. Very elegant work on saddle compensation with minimal specialty tool use. I was quite impressed. It's nice to see skills and grace in your execution. As an amateur luthier who has just completed my first complete restoration and setup on a 1970 Ariana guitar made in Japan (guitar was tossed into a bin and I rescued her). Ive spent 3 months on lockdown working her back to playable condition and your video was very helpful to me on achieving better intonation on this project. It is very rewarding. Thanks for posting Susan!
Having spent the last three years since retirement learning to build electric guitars, including winding my own pups, I recently bought a made in Romania Montana Spanish acoustic hybrid to learn on, inexpensive $43 shipped.. It has a flat fingerbord and is 43 mm at the nut. I have done a fret replace (flat fingerboard so much easier than radius) cut a new bone nut and saddle to replace plastic. I was wondering about intonation on acoustic guitars (Spanish style and other), wow now I understand so much more. I loved to see the struggles, I share these experiences with you and now you with me, genius. I am on a limited budget, so I have to improvise my own tools and strategies to do the work. I am now a fan and a subscriber. I hope to be building an acoustic soon. I will be watching. Thanks.
Thanks for this explanation. I had often wondered why there was an adjustment on the G string of my bridge and not elsewhere on my nylon string guitar. Now I know.
Best explanation on any topic ever achieved.
🙏♥️🎸
This video is the best explanation I've found! I did find another very helpful one but it was long and complicated. Thanks.
Thanks, great video. Great info, going to get a classical here soon, Lol didnt know you couldnt do bends on them. It will be different from shredding on my steel string. God bless. :)
What a great explanation of intonation! Thank you Susan. I've fixed intonation problems on ukuleles a number of times like this but made the saddle by laminating two pieces of bone together with CA glue which is much easier than making from one piece of bone. Gluing surfaces need to be well prepped to get a clean join but if done well, it's hard to see the join . I haven't noticed any loss in tone - the additional saddle mass probably has more impact.
I have a very old martin paylor guitar built in 1919 and it may very well it wasnt originally a steel string guitar with very little angle on the bridge. I had know idea there was a difference. Thank you, you really know your stuff!!
Thank you for the video, i took your advise. I worked on a L shape saddle to my 31 year old classic guitar, it has now a better intonation.
1st, Cudos to you making your own saddle from a large piece of bone. 2nd, like many others, your explanation of intonation, compensation and dead zone- something I never heard discussed before, is about the best I've heard. You've probably saved my short scale steel string from being slammed against the wall. The B string is always sharp on the 12th (well they all are but B most noticeably) and I've shaved 2 compensated saddles but it's still there driving me crazy. Didn't think of using a thicker saddle with a slight overlap. That would do it. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
The best explanation of nylon vs steel string compensation I have heard! Well done!
Nothing but admiration for your knowledge and skill. On a practical theme a small affordable desktop cnc machine would cut a design such as the L bridge in a minute or two,and it would be as designed. Thanks for the video. I learned a lot.
0:50 Agustín Barrios. Una Limosna por el Amor de Dios is the intro she is playing here. An absolutely beautiful piece by one of the greatest guitarist who ever existed.
Beautiful!
Thank you! I always scroll down to the comments section when I hear a song I like but don't know the name of hoping some legend like yourself will be there to name the song. There never actually is though 😂. Much appreciated.
Wonderful job, Susan. I realize the skills you demonstrate in this online class far exceed my technical abilities, however, I'll explain what I did about 10 years ago to fix the intonation issues with my very cheap classical guitar. Noticing that my Fender Stratocaster string saddles are configured in a staggered position, I tried to emulate the same paradigm. I proceeded to remove the bone, filled the slot with wood shavings mixed with epoxy and then Dremeled out a new slot with the desired slanted angle. It was an experiment done intuitively that somehow paid off. I'm pretty sure it's not for everybody and only to be tried on a cheap instrument in case things don't go too well. Cheers and thanks for the lesson!
I took off all the frets on a cheap old guitar . (3/4 sized Tatay with no fan braces whatsoever , also loose supporting brace under the neck end ) . I had to rebuild as it was falling to bits . Three small nails were holding the back on . To renovate the tuning I glued on bronze wire frets .Each note was worked out with a movable dummy fret ,using a Korg orchestral tuner , I fitted the bronze wire frets so every note was exactly Equal Temperament. This produced Wiggly Frets .All notes along each string perfectly in tune and not a straight fret to be seen . The frets were glued on with Evostik . To remove one just warm the fret up with a soldering iron .
Bending the bronze wire is easy with wire bending pliers . Use parrallel nose pliers to lay them flat on the fretboard . I hardly had to bother with fret levelling .
A number of years back I carried out exactly this modification to a classical guitar that had intonation problems, I guess you can describe it as a shelf style saddle.
The idea could have been inspired by the Earvana Nut, however it was something that I just done at the time to solve the problem. I was not aware before or since of anyone else doing this. It would be interesting to know if there is a published source endorsing this sort of modification or whether or not Susan just independently came up with it (like me).
I learned so much! Thank you, Susan.
This is a brilliant video. Lots of great ideas and interesting solutions to problems
Very nice work. And very thorough explanation.
Thank you!
Wow! Incredible demonstration. Still always looking forward to the guitar build videos, but wow!
You are amazing!!!! Loved this video!!! ❤️
thank you for doing this film it's great to know some one care about this
It just makes me smile. Smile because I don’t believe I’ve ever hear someone explain is so well. Even the video still had your trial and errors of showing the challenges of clamping down the saddle while you shaped it. Unheard of! Most just edit that out, which isn’t helpful at all. Thank you for being helpful. I actually feel smarter today.
Explanation of compensation due to tension over saddle is actually first time I’ve heard that despite looking up a lot on the subject an makes perfect sense. Many thanks. Just making a nylon hybrid guitar and currently put in a 1mm compensation from high to low E on the saddle slot (most nylons just have a straight saddle and pushed back 2mm). Hopefully with careful location of bridge that’ll do for this guitar and I can improve on it if I make more.
What an amazing video. Full of information and advice. You have a natural presentation style too.
I don’t quite understand the sciencey bits but got the gist.
I’ve been playing guitars for well over 50 years and have had a large range of instruments. I’ve settled mostly on the nylon strung variety. Intonation issues are crazy with nearly every one I’ve had; especially with the third string.
I spend around 30 minutes trying to tune to an equal temperament (whilst playing in every key), every practice session. I then have a pleasurable hour of playing the thing. It all has to be gone through the next time though… I’ve tried many makes of string and all sorts of set up ideas, but the problems are ever present.
It seemed that among instrumentalists, guitarists are probably, through necessity, the most obsessive.
Nice to see you and your work again
That was a very good explanation and demonstration - thank you very much! :)
Interesting video! Thank you for sharing and explaining about the saddle tilt
Thanks so much! I am finishing up my first classical guitar, and I have… intonation problems… Your video will help me solve my problem!
A bridegport-type vertical mill would cut that ledge very easily. Heavy and expensive, but worth their weight in gold. I've thought of doing this kind of saddle on my 00-18g, but everyone i talked to about it thought i was nuts. After watching this, I'm gonna give it a shot. Thanks!
Thanks, you answered a question I had about nylon vs steel intonation, and you were most through.
that is the kind of work that i was ever looked for from a Luthier what *really* aim the perfection.
thank you for share a bit of your hard, surgical and engineering work, what most will not even notice but they will want to play on it dosen't know why
GOOD! please more.
Wow, lots of work, but you have really enlightened all of us🤗🤗
The other thing is intonation is tested here on the guitar as it sits on it's back but intonation shifts when the guitar is held in play positions and so must be finally adjusted, tested in play position. The plastic is less conductive so when the strings are released the temperature of the molecules is changed and the time to stablise is long as opposed to steel strings that are conductive
There are lots of examples of classical guitars with slanted saddles - Ramirez of course and also Burguet to name a couple of very well known makers, both traditional Spanish made guitars. What I noticed with this lovely video and excellent working on the bone, was that at the end of all that work, the 'g' string was very definitely still quite sharp at the 12th fret.
I was surprised how far back I moved it. There might be another iteration to do. You could argue it’s impossible to hear less than 3 cents
Hi Susan,
What a great video. I really learned a lot from this ☺️ And great to see hou you work that bone 🦴
Lot’s of greetings, Dennis 🇳🇱
This was impressive, I must say. Such a technical and scientific approach!
This was a very informative video. Thank you.
Perfect explanation, thank you
I learned a lot Susan. Thanks a million!!!
Interesting. This explains why I get a trained luthier to perform such operations.
Actually saved this video as it is so helpful!
Excellent explanation!
Thank you very much for very instructive vido. I will try this technique on my C40.
Excellent video😮, about the not being able to bend on a classical guitar, I just noticed that about 2 days ago😄, so I understand that well
I am still at 5:31 in the video, and I have learnt a lot already🥰
Thanks for doing this video Ma
Players are always chasing perfect intonation. The more you think about it the more of a problem it becomes. Changes in the instrument over the years, the humidity indoors vs. the humidity outdoors, string hardness, and so forth. I’ve sometimes had good luck with wound G strings. I’ll be interested to see your results once the guitar and the strings have had a little Ike to settle. Thanks for the video.
Flouro-carbon strings seem to have a higher density maybe resulting in reduced harmonicity of the string. I tried a set of them on my girlfriend's non adjusted guitar, and they have a really tight and dynamic sound, very articulated all over the neck.
It’s crazy how much more work it is to intonate a classical or steel string guitar compared to an electric, where you just turn a screw and boom
Great video! very clear explanation.
This is the best intonation explanation I've seen. Thanks for showing all the trial and error attempts in finding a good way to shape the saddle. I just went through something similar in creating a shelf like that on a nut in order to intonate that. I used a couple of straight boards with sandpaper held against one of them to create a right angle as a sanding jig, with a spacer so that the nut rode above the vertical board enough to create the shelf. It took forever, and perhaps rigging up something similar with a file would be better. Holding the nut by hand was difficult and laborious. I think I would take a clue from your glueing idea but instead glue directly to a board with some hide glue (for easy reversibility). (BTW how do you feel about nut compensation?)
I used my mini-mill with a 1/8” bit to create a cantilever(L shape) in a 4mm wide stock bone saddle which enabled me to create a longer string than the existing 2mm slot would normally allow for my very stiff super high tension strings. My G string sting is 3.5 mm back 😮
1:22 The saddle compensation slant is not a steel string vs classical issue.
Virtually every high quality classical guitar will also have a saddle set at a slight angle to produce compensation. If not, then it is generally a reflection of the instrument's price point.
Nylon strings and steel strings stretch differently because their molecular structures are different. Steel molecules attract one another equally in all directions, so tension is evenly distributed through the whole structure. Nylon is a ploymer where the molecules attract one another in a single direction also called "strings" so the structure is made up like an unevenly twisted rope that takes some time to even out tension where some "strings" are under greater tension than others within the structure.
The nylon molecules are only aligned that way in a string, which was formed by stretching melted nylon in one long direction. In the original solid chunk of nylon, the molecules are randomly oriented like spaghetti.
Great lesson. Thank you
I use a string stretcher, same kind that works well with acoustic steel string guitar steel strings, and with some patience and diligence I can accelerate the string stability and get even new strings to a stable,playable state in a day and not days. In fact I can get the strings to a playable state in hours. Love those string stretcher gizmos! Have you ever tried classical trebles whicyh are steel? Titanium as I recall. They have typical nylon trebles tension so don't confuse them with acoustic steel string trebles, they are true classical trebles but made of Titanium.
Great technical advice and explanation. I was going to buy a budget classical guitar (and I mean budget). I know I can fix most issues on a steel string acoustic or electric instrument , but these guitars seem extremely restricted on things like this without the correct equipment. But thanks for the video , very helpful.
Amazing job...
Great stuff!!
Very interesting demonstration. I'm sure it will come in handy in future for my own guitars. Thanks.
I know it’s a lot more work, but you could also remove the lifted bridge, eventually fix the fan braces that have maybe bent over time, or maybe some have come loose. And/or fix the bridge plate as well. That would take care of the forward angle that has occurred. That angle also probably raised your action quite a bit too!!
I agree, properly fix the antique.
Hi! 🙂
Thanks for the very useful instructions!
As well as, can you tell me what's the name of the background music on the video?
0:00 ~ 0:16 or 26:21 ~ 26:52
Thanks... Great video.
Great explanations. Many of us now use the thinner carbon etc G string. How does this affect bridge compensation? If one has been using the standard fatter G string should the bridge be reshaped if a thinner G string is fitted?
Very informative, would have never considered that approach.
I was hoping that you would play.But that’s okay.I learned a lot.Thank You.
Wonderful video
I'm glad you said that nylon strings can take a week to stabilize. I only just got a Nylon string guitar and thought the tuners were crap? ( I have many other elec and steel string acoustic guitars - I am not a newbie)
That was excellent, a thorough and well demonstrated explanation of intonation. Followed by an equally thorough demonstration on how to fix the problem. I was wondering if you fix other players instruments. Thanks
Answers to a number of things I've always wondered about. Thanks.
Very interesting. I didn’t really know the meaning of Intersex. You are gorgeous!❤
Awesome! You can occasionally get double width saddles on Reverb.
I have two Cordobas: Iberia Dolce (7/8 size) and CM1 (full size with a slim neck); both with GREAT intonation!! (( AND a light trussrod!)), highly recommended..., havent played them for 15 years though...
To answer your question at the end, I don't know. But I have noticed that with some guitars with well broken in strings, if you resist the urge to start tuning it first thing when you pick it up, and instead allow it to warm up, the strings automatically tune themselves.
Very interesting, thanks