I know more and more people are talking about heat loss through the sides of the pad, but I'd like to add a few more theories to the pile as to why some pads seem to be less insulating than their R-value may suggest: 1) Dimpled pads with high "cell height" are great at conforming to the user's body, which decreases the local thickness of the pad in pressure point spots, especially when compared to a more stiff and supportive baffle system (XTherm). The less a pad gives, the more uniformly thick it can stay. 2) Certain insulation patterns may be less effective when crushed than others. It's possible the triangular core matrix crumples randomly when deformed, creating a bunch of small air pockets that may help insulate. Something like the new nemo tensor with its flat mylar sheets may simply stack up when deformed, reducing insulation due to lack of trapped air. Unfortunately, the ASTM testing not only fails to account for air temperature, but also fails to account for deformation of the pad.
My preferred setup is my Nemo Tensor Insulated over an Evazote 1.5cm foam pad. This gives me a high R-value, is more comfortable for sleeping and allows me to sit on the foam if I’m confined to the tent in a rainstorm. I find inflatable mattresses are cushioning when your weight is dispersed, but they often aren’t comfortable for sitting on. The foam works well for this.
That's what my partner and I did. EXPED LW folding foam pad under a Nemo Tensor Insulated LW. Plus we used the foam pads stored externally for quick deploy seats and picnic blankets during rest stops.
My last outing was 6 degrees F air temp on snow and I put two foam pads (one full-length z-rest and one 3/4 length Ridgerest) under my old 1 inch Thermarest 3/4 length trail light self-inflating sleeping pad and I was too warm. I was not comfortable, but at least I was warm.
I've always found that placing the air mattress on the bottom then a foam pad on top of it is the best way to stay warm. I've slept this way both on the bare ground, snow covered ground and on the steel floor in the back of a military truck during the Canadian winter and its the best way to stay warm.
I love that the R-Value chart have a maple leaf on it... right around the 3.2 R-value area. which is minimum for any season in Canada, IMO. ^_^ (I know it's supposed to mean autumn)
My down Xpeds 7R have performed incredibly well at very low temps (-25C) but... one literally blew up (catastrophic failure, gash 1 foot wide opened up on top resulting in down flying all over and me sleeping on the cold ground) - Exped were great about replacing it but now, my wife's sleeping pad (same model) has a slow leak. That's after only 5 nights of very careful use so.. yeah. Hard to recommend from a durability standpoint but they worked very well comfort and heat retention wise
I think Justin was alluding to that near the end of the video; I know he has already tested the Tensor Extreme, and has said that it doesn't sleep as warm as the Xtherm in real-world conditions.
I just saw an ad that Zenbivy has come up with a new backpacking mattress, I have their light mattress, but I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this one! I copied this, below, from the ad. Introducing the Zenbivy Ultralight Mattress Zenbivy’s lightest and most packable backpacking mattress. Starting at just 1 lb 2 oz, the Ultralight Mattress is uncommonly supportive and delivers R5 warmth. Arriving in early February"
@@JustinOutdoors oh! Can we expect a report? But one thing that is frustrating for me is that, currently, the little Flextail pump doesn't work with their valve. That might be enough to keep me from purchasing, despite having and liking another Zenbivy mattress.
Interesting about wider pads being colder than narrow ones. I hadn't ever thought of how air temperature changes the effectiveness of the pad. How much of a difference in R-Value do you think this makes? And @JustinOutdoors where does the Nemo Tensor fit in this range? Upper or lower Middle range?
for that reason, I'm going to keep my narrow 20" XTherm with its R6.9 rating instead of swapping it out for the 1" thicker Xtherm XTL with its R7.4 rating.
@@TheNewGreenIsBlue I doubt there is a really definitive answer to your question because your metabolism is not the same as mine. I've been comfortable on every sleeping pad I ever owned. My problem was keeping my feet warm until I discovered, bought, & wear my 100% overfilled GooseFeet Down booties inside my sleeping bag. I'm comfy warm when my feet are warm regardless of which air mattress I'm on.
How would you rate the difference of having foam pad on top versus bottom? I personally feel having it on top "feels" warmer as the foam is the direct surface under you and it reflects most of the heat directly back.
Hi Justin. Your sleeping pad reviews are by far the most knowledgeable and best around. I can’t wait to see your comparison of xtherm v nemo extreme. I’m hoping the nemo is as warm and as light, but more comfortable. Until I hear your views on the 2 I will be sticking with my trusty xtherm for now 👍. Have you ever tested the BA rapide sl? I have question marks over it’s claimed r value. It’s incredibly comfortable but I just don’t find it being as warm as claimed personally
Can a winter pad be used in summer or will the high R value make it uncomfortable because it won’t shed my extra body heat and the side of my body touching the pad will get sweaty/wet? I understand that a winter pad used in summer would be unnecessarily heavy but I’m wondering if it could be a viable option to have 1 pad to use comfortably in all seasons? Thanks for your insights.
I doubt a really warm sleeping pad would make you too warm by itself, if you pair that winter-weight sleeping pad with a really warm sleeping bag you probably would be too cold. It definitely wouldn’t shed heat (like an non-insulated air pad would actually draw heat from your body with convection), but a winter-weight sleeping pad wouldn’t trap any additional heat, since heat rises. If your camping on hot ground (like asphalt in summer) a winter weight sleeping pad would shield you from that excess heat though.
R value is not a heat rating. It's a resistance for heat to transfer. The easiest way to answer this for people is to inform them that their home mattress has an R value well in the double digits and you don't swap it out seasonally. You change clothes and top insulation. It totally works the same camping.
I seem to recall ppl saying to put your CCF pad on top of air ads not below. Ever try this? Any reason for it? In the old Thermarest days we always put CCFs under the pad. Not sure for air pads
I think the reasoning is that the foam is a more efficient insulator, so you want it as close to the heat source as possible. I find it less comfortable, so usually put the mat underneath.
The reason is because an inflatable pad, even an insulated one, provides an air gap that allows a portion of the heat you're trying to trap with the CCF pad to dissipate before it reaches the pad, preventing the CCF from working to it's full potential. Remove the air gap by putting it on top and it's able to trap the heat before that happens. The difference is probably trivial, but like cutting trivial amounts of pack weight, it's the combined effect of multiple trivial little things that makes doing them worthwhile.
@@whosjulez1157 I have put my rain poncho under my airmat. With the PU side against the PU tent floor. Then is much quiet. Works with exped and neoair.
👇 GEAR FROM THE VIDEO 👇
Big Agnes Zoom UL: geni.us/ZoomUL
Sea to Summit Ether Light XT: geni.us/EtherLightXT
Exped Ultra 3R: geni.us/Ultra3R
Thermarest Xlite: geni.us/XliteNXT
Exped Ultra 5R: geni.us/Exped5R
Rab Ionopshere: geni.us/RabIonosphere
REI Helix: geni.us/HelixSleepingPad
Thermarest Xtherm: geni.us/xtherm
Placing the pink spoon under your sleeping pad will also add 5 points to any R-value.
At least! It's a good way to really warm up the zoom ul
Dang, I've been doing it wrong this whole time, I was using the trowel. 😂
I know more and more people are talking about heat loss through the sides of the pad, but I'd like to add a few more theories to the pile as to why some pads seem to be less insulating than their R-value may suggest:
1) Dimpled pads with high "cell height" are great at conforming to the user's body, which decreases the local thickness of the pad in pressure point spots, especially when compared to a more stiff and supportive baffle system (XTherm). The less a pad gives, the more uniformly thick it can stay.
2) Certain insulation patterns may be less effective when crushed than others. It's possible the triangular core matrix crumples randomly when deformed, creating a bunch of small air pockets that may help insulate. Something like the new nemo tensor with its flat mylar sheets may simply stack up when deformed, reducing insulation due to lack of trapped air.
Unfortunately, the ASTM testing not only fails to account for air temperature, but also fails to account for deformation of the pad.
My preferred setup is my Nemo Tensor Insulated over an Evazote 1.5cm foam pad. This gives me a high R-value, is more comfortable for sleeping and allows me to sit on the foam if I’m confined to the tent in a rainstorm. I find inflatable mattresses are cushioning when your weight is dispersed, but they often aren’t comfortable for sitting on. The foam works well for this.
That's what my partner and I did. EXPED LW folding foam pad under a Nemo Tensor Insulated LW. Plus we used the foam pads stored externally for quick deploy seats and picnic blankets during rest stops.
MSR recommends putting a closed cell foam pad ON TOP of an air mattress; shiny side up, next to the sleeping bag.
Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada
For winter, i put a foam mat under my pad, and it is adequate.
My last outing was 6 degrees F air temp on snow and I put two foam pads (one full-length z-rest and one 3/4 length Ridgerest) under my old 1 inch Thermarest 3/4 length trail light self-inflating sleeping pad and I was too warm. I was not comfortable, but at least I was warm.
I've always found that placing the air mattress on the bottom then a foam pad on top of it is the best way to stay warm. I've slept this way both on the bare ground, snow covered ground and on the steel floor in the back of a military truck during the Canadian winter and its the best way to stay warm.
I love that the R-Value chart have a maple leaf on it... right around the 3.2 R-value area. which is minimum for any season in Canada, IMO. ^_^ (I know it's supposed to mean autumn)
Exactly what I need. I am in the market for a sleeping pad right now.
My Umtimate pick is the Exped Ultra 7r Downmat. It’s warm, compfy and dosnt Sound like a chipsbag
I was hoping to get a comparison review including the Rab Ionosphere 5 (from the thumbnail). Still a good video.
Great video. Thanks for including so much science.
My down Xpeds 7R have performed incredibly well at very low temps (-25C) but... one literally blew up (catastrophic failure, gash 1 foot wide opened up on top resulting in down flying all over and me sleeping on the cold ground) - Exped were great about replacing it but now, my wife's sleeping pad (same model) has a slow leak. That's after only 5 nights of very careful use so.. yeah. Hard to recommend from a durability standpoint but they worked very well comfort and heat retention wise
Nice video. What about the new Tensor Extreme and the Tensor all Season?
I think Justin was alluding to that near the end of the video; I know he has already tested the Tensor Extreme, and has said that it doesn't sleep as warm as the Xtherm in real-world conditions.
I just saw an ad that Zenbivy has come up with a new backpacking mattress, I have their light mattress, but I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this one! I copied this, below, from the ad.
Introducing the Zenbivy Ultralight Mattress
Zenbivy’s lightest and most packable backpacking mattress. Starting at just 1 lb 2 oz, the Ultralight Mattress is uncommonly supportive and delivers R5 warmth. Arriving in early February"
I just got back from a testing trip with it ;)
@@JustinOutdoors oh! Can we expect a report? But one thing that is frustrating for me is that, currently, the little Flextail pump doesn't work with their valve. That might be enough to keep me from purchasing, despite having and liking another Zenbivy mattress.
Interesting about wider pads being colder than narrow ones. I hadn't ever thought of how air temperature changes the effectiveness of the pad. How much of a difference in R-Value do you think this makes?
And @JustinOutdoors where does the Nemo Tensor fit in this range? Upper or lower Middle range?
for that reason, I'm going to keep my narrow 20" XTherm with its R6.9 rating instead of swapping it out for the 1" thicker Xtherm XTL with its R7.4 rating.
@@azclaimjumper I'd be curious how much difference it ACTUALLY makes though. is it enough of a difference to have a less comfortable width?
@@TheNewGreenIsBlue I doubt there is a really definitive answer to your question because your metabolism is not the same as mine. I've been comfortable on every sleeping pad I ever owned. My problem was keeping my feet warm until I discovered, bought, & wear my 100% overfilled GooseFeet Down booties inside my sleeping bag. I'm comfy warm when my feet are warm regardless of which air mattress I'm on.
How would you rate the difference of having foam pad on top versus bottom? I personally feel having it on top "feels" warmer as the foam is the direct surface under you and it reflects most of the heat directly back.
IIRC this is the actual way to maximize heat using both
Good point. I use it under, to prevent a midnight puncture.
Thermarest recommends having a reflective foam pad ON TOP of the air mattress with the shiny side of the foam pad UP, next to your sleeping bag.
How about 2 foam pads? An 1/8th" foam pad cut to size for puncture protection on bottom & another reflective pad on top?
Hi Justin. Your sleeping pad reviews are by far the most knowledgeable and best around. I can’t wait to see your comparison of xtherm v nemo extreme. I’m hoping the nemo is as warm and as light, but more comfortable. Until I hear your views on the 2 I will be sticking with my trusty xtherm for now 👍. Have you ever tested the BA rapide sl? I have question marks over it’s claimed r value. It’s incredibly comfortable but I just don’t find it being as warm as claimed personally
I haven't tested the Rapide SL, but BA is releasing an updated model for 2024 with a different insulation method and I plan on getting my hands on it!
Dang, the Mizuno JPX 923 Tours didn’t even make the podium?
They are ridiculously precise irons. I’ve really loved them
Can a winter pad be used in summer or will the high R value make it uncomfortable because it won’t shed my extra body heat and the side of my body touching the pad will get sweaty/wet? I understand that a winter pad used in summer would be unnecessarily heavy but I’m wondering if it could be a viable option to have 1 pad to use comfortably in all seasons? Thanks for your insights.
I doubt a really warm sleeping pad would make you too warm by itself, if you pair that winter-weight sleeping pad with a really warm sleeping bag you probably would be too cold. It definitely wouldn’t shed heat (like an non-insulated air pad would actually draw heat from your body with convection), but a winter-weight sleeping pad wouldn’t trap any additional heat, since heat rises. If your camping on hot ground (like asphalt in summer) a winter weight sleeping pad would shield you from that excess heat though.
R value is not a heat rating. It's a resistance for heat to transfer. The easiest way to answer this for people is to inform them that their home mattress has an R value well in the double digits and you don't swap it out seasonally. You change clothes and top insulation. It totally works the same camping.
Well, right then. I wish I'd of seen this video a month ago, before I bought a Zoom UL... :)
Hello Justin, so, which mattress do you recommend for 3-season use? I'm considering buying the Zoom UL, but some say it doesn't protect the floor!
REi Helix 😅
Can you use a high r value pad in the summer?
I seem to recall ppl saying to put your CCF pad on top of air ads not below. Ever try this? Any reason for it? In the old Thermarest days we always put CCFs under the pad. Not sure for air pads
MSR recommends putting a CCF pad ON TOP of the air mattress with the shiny side up next to the sleeping bag.
I think the reasoning is that the foam is a more efficient insulator, so you want it as close to the heat source as possible. I find it less comfortable, so usually put the mat underneath.
The reason is because an inflatable pad, even an insulated one, provides an air gap that allows a portion of the heat you're trying to trap with the CCF pad to dissipate before it reaches the pad, preventing the CCF from working to it's full potential. Remove the air gap by putting it on top and it's able to trap the heat before that happens. The difference is probably trivial, but like cutting trivial amounts of pack weight, it's the combined effect of multiple trivial little things that makes doing them worthwhile.
Which of the good pads is quiet?
My seatosummit is so loud, I wake up everyone when turning around on it 😢
What tent do you have? Big Agnes?
@@bcamping1 it's noisy/squeaky in different tents. Even inside houses on the floor it's relatively loud
@@whosjulez1157 I have put my rain poncho under my airmat. With the PU side against the PU tent floor. Then is much quiet. Works with exped and neoair.
Have you tested the new nemo extreme yet ?
I have, stay tuned ;)
@@JustinOutdoors I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it
Donde esta el sanitario El queso es podrido
Recommended to pre-dig a cat hole, during camp setup so it's ready when u gotta go, u gotta go😅