The postage mistakes were a mess and, frankly, the way some aspects of the community responded just makes us all look bad. The postage issue seems like a mistake that any company without an internal logistics (and probably quite a lot with one) could make. They were pretty quick to release a statement saying they were looking into it and then told us when the issue had been identified. As far as I am aware, we’re now waiting for the new shipping costs. Perhaps they could have done some kind of smoke test, but is that option even available? People these days are so used to being burnt and just have zero chill. I get it, I can’t afford to pay 30-50% of my pledge in postage but the way people responded was borderline immature. It was the same with Blaine Lee Pardoe. Perhaps it is the times we live in - it’s been a mess since at least 2009 and all that uncertainty combined with internet echo-chambers has taken a toll. If I were CGL, I don’t think I would want to sign up for another kickstarter. Kickstarters are a great way to raise a profile but, once that’s occurred it seems like they can only hurt a brand.
'The postage mistakes were a mess and, frankly, the way some aspects of the community responded just makes us all look bad.' TBF there were/are some pretty bad actors on both sides of the debate. And CGL has a history of delays and effing up (both work flows and communication). 'Perhaps they could have done some kind of smoke test, but is that option even available?' Of course it's possible but that means CGL and QML would have to do that, review the results, and might have to put things on hold. All we know from their own KS updates is that 1. they send the batch data to QML about four months ago, 2. that they noticed 'some larger charges' for some US/CAN orders monday before the long easter weekend, 3. that they still proceeded , 4. gave people 14 days time to pay and then 5. told people to wait four days to figure out what happened (you'd think a seven figures shipping job would mean that the bosses have each others phone numbers in case of emergencies...)
I don'y think we'll see another kickstarter to expand the minis line, Randall said as much on one of the Adepticon streams. But he did say they'll still do kickstarters for marketing purposes, and I think that will mean small, focused projects similar to their non-BattleTech ones. A board game or two, stretch goals adding more stuff to the box or expansions, and not a big giveaway of plastic. I think the chanes to EU law around importing and crowdfunding where VAT costs are being passed down to backers is going to hurt growth and big backers. It's not just effecting CGL, I've backed Nemesis Retaliation and they're factoring VAT into the purchases in the pledge manager. I believe Liya have facilities outside of China as well, so if there is an issue with production there they can move to somewhere else relatively easily, but I might be wrong on that front. And GW have used Liya for production in the past, when they didn't ship globally from their UK facility, interestingly. On the production costs issues, I'm nost sure how practical a small bump on the forcepacks in exchange for domestic production. I know a box of pre-built softer plastic minis are going to be cheaper to make than a multipart kit, but Creative Juggernaut's premium minis line was an attempt to do affordable production in the US and it didn't work out. Siocast might be the way to go, that's what Monster Fight Club are using for their premium BattleTech minis, which are produced domestically, but are still like $16 each (compared to, say $19 for the IWM Ryoken and $22 for their Black Knight). Loren seems to be quite risk-averse when it comes to major capital investments - CGL has no fixed office, uses one of their distributors to run the webstore and warehousing, all that sort of stuff. That might change now, of course. And IWM are indeed in Ohio!
Interesting video - I think you are right they don't need to do more Kickstarters but they have talked about the next KS, there are talks about Solaris and/or other themes. I suspect they will go smaller next time around if they do go.
With the debacle of the shipping costs and the poor communication around it, I now agree. Mercenaries should be the last Kick Starter Campaign. I could've seen a Citytech/Solaris KS which focuses on urban warfare, named mechs and pilots that is rounded out with infantry, vehicles, and buildings. Now, those sound like regualr releases.
I've always found "legit" companies using kickstarter amatuerish and unprofessional. Way too much risk for the consumer. CGL got our money up front, like an intrestest free loan as you said, we may not get anything for our money, or it might be mega delayed, and we get a mystery shipping expense. Of course they will get abuse from the backers, and if they don't enjoy that, don't do Kickstarters. The only thing I appreciate from the Kickstarter is all the swag I can get, I love dice and velcro patches. As for models, I can get that retail. *** Your thoughts about international shipping and business going back home, I love everything you are saying.
The premise of the KS has been killed by firms using it for marketing; whatever good intention it started out with has now been lost in the corporate grind post Amazon discovering there was money in those crowdfunding projects.
@@duskhaunters3025As usual, you put it perfectly. KS as it was conceived vs how it is used now are 2 very different things. Keep up the good work and I for one look forward to your Dusk Haunter unit excel overviews.
I think its pretty clear that CGL is well positioned to go fully retail for Battletech. They've got a roadmap of half a dozen mini releases a year, which is solid support and healthy for the game. This level of releases should be very affordable for them and not need any pre-funding. They are in a virtuous cycle now, and should be self-funding for the foreseeable future. I could see them doing another KS in a few years, for their other games, but I don't think BT will get another one. With this much more stable situation for BT, it would be great if they use the next couple of years to create a next edition of BT Classic rules to make the game easier to understand (major rule changes aren't needed - rule formatting and clarification is). I'd also like to see them revamp completely the Alpha Strike rules - it seems to be pretty popular, and really could use a good number of tweaks to make it better.
I Kinda think they need not only some tidy up for the rules, but another ruleset that sits between Battletech and Alpha Strike. To explain: Coming from spaceship gaming, I generally break games down into 3 levels: Task Force/Fleet, Squadron, and Division, with each getting more detailed as the size drops. We have Fleet games, like A sky full of Ships, where each ship is quite abstracted, squadrons of ships may have a single sheet representing them, and you can play 30-40 ships in a couple of hours, this is what I would equate Alpha Strike to. We then have Starfleet Battles and Babylon 5 Wars, where each ship is represented on Tabletop as a ship, you control power distribution, fighter launch, sub-section targeting for each ship, and can play 3-4 ships in a couple of hours, this is where I would put Classic BatteTech. What we also have in Spaceship gaming is games like Full Thrust and Starmada, where ships have some detail, but not too much, and can play 10-16 ships in a couple of hours. This is what I think BattleTech is missing, a mid complexity, mid size game. I think something like DFAs Mechwarrior:Destiny would fit well, only issue as a fan project is the rules are spread over a few books, and kinda hard to mesh it all if you aren't as familiar with all the systems.
I'm all in for them doing smaller, more focused Kickstarters to found things like Aces or Solaris sets. But with them ramping up their box set game that hefty even after the Mercs Kickstarter already shows that they can finance said stuff without the need of crowdfunding.
BTW-awesome MWO Leopard dropship on the shelf. I'm working on a Hardware Studios Geopard right now! I honestly don't think there's enough drive to make another Kickstarter as successful for a completely different reason. What other specific goal do we as a group want to achieve that we would be willing to fund? The Clan Invasion KS brought us the start of the return of the Unseen in new plastic versions while the Merc KS brought us it's completion. It also showed that there was enough interest to start producing plastic vehicles. That covers plastics for what's often the 2 most played eras. The other eras are not nearly as popular and even though I'd love to see it Aerotech doesn't seem to have the demand to make it worthwhile either. I think that perhaps from here on out we'll get releases in lower numbers and without kickstarters. Personally I'm very glad that I got to participate in this kickstarter. We got the ball rolling and contributed to making sure that the unseen returned with updated art. Don't forget that.
Those Dropships are such great quality; one of the few 3D printed pieces I own and love. Yeah, the KS is a hell of a ride; ups and downs, but when it comes it's such a buzz!
REM said the company had talked about the possibility of an Aces Kickstarter at some point but that it would be in the future. I agree with others that any additional kickstarters would be much smaller and more niche.
What you say about stress and dissatisfaction of customers is the risk of KS. And it seems much of the good faith and feelings of the early phase of the Merc KS has completely died. So I can see them not wanting this experience again. As for commercial sense. If they want the game to take off. They need to get the promotion network established here in UK and get stock onto shop shelves.
@@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq There's plenty of goodwill left in the community, but that has to be maintained through action on behalf of the company. It doesn't help when you make explicit promises to find options for affordable shipping and six months later present people with a shipping invoice that is unreasonably expensive by any standard. Sure they've dialed it down, but it took people losing their shit immmediately and en masse for them to figure out that the prices that they themselves plugged into the system were wrong. After those promises and efforts, you'd expect people behind the scenes to do a double take when they enter data and the shipping ends up 30-50% of pledges consistently.
I'm certainly down for CGL not have another major KS for big expansions. I'm happy they have a roadmap for the next several years, and those are very attainable. I can see a KS for something niche, like maybe Solaris or maybe Aces. I also agree, they need to diversify their manufacturing, and not have all their eggs in one basket. I doubt it'll ever move stateside just due to how much it will drive up production costs. We'll see. Cheers.
Long story short, most stuff left China separately to the different HUBS, it is local shipping. Total cost for Shipping and Handling was 2.6 million, handling was 1.2 million which we were not supposed to be charged for but we were. Supporters are responsible for the other 1.4 , BFM was the other issue, I think its a 40$ charge from the Catalyst store all by itself for its odd shape on USA shipping. Most of this was on the Tuesday Newsday. My account and most others zeroed out on shipping Wednesday night. Mine showed 618$ , I bet when all gets redone it will be around 180$ At Adepticon it sounded like no more KS with Minis, there could be more KS not including Minis. Rumor is Aces could be a KS. Minis sounds like retail only here on out.
I think participating in the Kickstarter was enjoyable over all, and as long as the boat doesn't sink on the way here I don't have any regrets about it. But doing the math I can see that I'm paying the same amount per 'Mech as I would buying at retail. I do get the fun little extras like patches and a book, but now that I've got one set of fun little extras, in the future I'll just wait for retail. They have said they won't do another Kickstarter to expand the miniature line, but they said something very similar after the Clan Invasion Kickstarter too.
It is a thrill ride, and when that small cargo container shows up at your door you get a sweet sweet feeling; but, yes, a lot of ups and downs for sure.
I think it may be the end of mech and vehicle kick starters but we still need aerospace and fleet scale ships so that another kick starter, also Battle troops would be another good kickstarter.
If they have a third Kickstarter, it won't be of the scale of the first two. It simply can't just from the lack of models with enough nostalgia power to get people to buy them. They need like 30 to 40 models that have never been released. We are already in the age of repositionings and jump chest smoke being the draw for a new models. Sure, they could design things that we've never seen before, but that will not have remotely the same amount of draw. Even with vehicles most of the truly famous ones are done now. If everything in that road map was rolled into a single Kickstarter, do you think it would be a successful?
That's an absolutely excellent point... No, I don't think it would be anywhere near as successful as their last KS. I think I'd get it, but I'd go from like a $2500 in to maybe $250...which is telling.
I think the current postage scandle and the vat miss-charging issue is likely to mean no one will back a CGL KS again. I know I won't be. They said they would have regional shipping hubs. Then they retracted on that and broke contract with us backers. My shipping and vat is coming in at 40% of my pledge. I can ship a 20' steel container across the Atlantic for the same price they are trying to charge us. Add to that the withdrawal of free salvage boxes per pledge. As was stated in the KS down to one per backer. It's safe to say this is leaving a bad taste. As for plastic manufacturering of models. Anythylike that will depend upon the licence being negotiated with tops for a long enough period to ensure safety of investment. I am still cautious over that "release" of the schedule. As it's not official. So I view it as someone in cgl wish list for now.
There were going to be more KS, but just not for miniatures anymore I guess? It would not surprise me that, if CGL now eats the handling costs for transport, CGL sees a lot of its profit of this KS evaporate. Is it even worth it?
I can't see them covering all the local shipping, it would be an incredible cost; they might do a small % as good will, but they'd be ill-advised to soak that all up.
@@duskhaunters3025I believe they said they would cover handling, but shipping would still be for the backer. Right now, the cost is both shipping and handling.
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The postage mistakes were a mess and, frankly, the way some aspects of the community responded just makes us all look bad. The postage issue seems like a mistake that any company without an internal logistics (and probably quite a lot with one) could make. They were pretty quick to release a statement saying they were looking into it and then told us when the issue had been identified. As far as I am aware, we’re now waiting for the new shipping costs. Perhaps they could have done some kind of smoke test, but is that option even available?
People these days are so used to being burnt and just have zero chill. I get it, I can’t afford to pay 30-50% of my pledge in postage but the way people responded was borderline immature. It was the same with Blaine Lee Pardoe.
Perhaps it is the times we live in - it’s been a mess since at least 2009 and all that uncertainty combined with internet echo-chambers has taken a toll.
If I were CGL, I don’t think I would want to sign up for another kickstarter. Kickstarters are a great way to raise a profile but, once that’s occurred it seems like they can only hurt a brand.
'The postage mistakes were a mess and, frankly, the way some aspects of the community responded just makes us all look bad.'
TBF there were/are some pretty bad actors on both sides of the debate. And CGL has a history of delays and effing up (both work flows and communication).
'Perhaps they could have done some kind of smoke test, but is that option even available?'
Of course it's possible but that means CGL and QML would have to do that, review the results, and might have to put things on hold.
All we know from their own KS updates is that 1. they send the batch data to QML about four months ago, 2. that they noticed 'some larger charges' for some US/CAN orders monday before the long easter weekend, 3. that they still proceeded , 4. gave people 14 days time to pay and then 5. told people to wait four days to figure out what happened (you'd think a seven figures shipping job would mean that the bosses have each others phone numbers in case of emergencies...)
I will try to do a vid on the shipping/VAT thing this evening, as I recorded this before that nasty boil popped last week.
I don'y think we'll see another kickstarter to expand the minis line, Randall said as much on one of the Adepticon streams. But he did say they'll still do kickstarters for marketing purposes, and I think that will mean small, focused projects similar to their non-BattleTech ones. A board game or two, stretch goals adding more stuff to the box or expansions, and not a big giveaway of plastic. I think the chanes to EU law around importing and crowdfunding where VAT costs are being passed down to backers is going to hurt growth and big backers. It's not just effecting CGL, I've backed Nemesis Retaliation and they're factoring VAT into the purchases in the pledge manager.
I believe Liya have facilities outside of China as well, so if there is an issue with production there they can move to somewhere else relatively easily, but I might be wrong on that front. And GW have used Liya for production in the past, when they didn't ship globally from their UK facility, interestingly.
On the production costs issues, I'm nost sure how practical a small bump on the forcepacks in exchange for domestic production. I know a box of pre-built softer plastic minis are going to be cheaper to make than a multipart kit, but Creative Juggernaut's premium minis line was an attempt to do affordable production in the US and it didn't work out. Siocast might be the way to go, that's what Monster Fight Club are using for their premium BattleTech minis, which are produced domestically, but are still like $16 each (compared to, say $19 for the IWM Ryoken and $22 for their Black Knight). Loren seems to be quite risk-averse when it comes to major capital investments - CGL has no fixed office, uses one of their distributors to run the webstore and warehousing, all that sort of stuff. That might change now, of course.
And IWM are indeed in Ohio!
I remember him saying that too.
Brilliant, great knowledge/intel there, sir. Thanks!
Interesting video - I think you are right they don't need to do more Kickstarters but they have talked about the next KS, there are talks about Solaris and/or other themes. I suspect they will go smaller next time around if they do go.
Wasn't a Solaris pack due to be on the cards? That wasn't in the road map...maybe that's their next small scale KS plan?
@@duskhaunters3025Solaris 🤩Take my money!
With the debacle of the shipping costs and the poor communication around it, I now agree. Mercenaries should be the last Kick Starter Campaign.
I could've seen a Citytech/Solaris KS which focuses on urban warfare, named mechs and pilots that is rounded out with infantry, vehicles, and buildings.
Now, those sound like regualr releases.
I've always found "legit" companies using kickstarter amatuerish and unprofessional. Way too much risk for the consumer. CGL got our money up front, like an intrestest free loan as you said, we may not get anything for our money, or it might be mega delayed, and we get a mystery shipping expense. Of course they will get abuse from the backers, and if they don't enjoy that, don't do Kickstarters.
The only thing I appreciate from the Kickstarter is all the swag I can get, I love dice and velcro patches.
As for models, I can get that retail.
***
Your thoughts about international shipping and business going back home, I love everything you are saying.
The premise of the KS has been killed by firms using it for marketing; whatever good intention it started out with has now been lost in the corporate grind post Amazon discovering there was money in those crowdfunding projects.
@@duskhaunters3025As usual, you put it perfectly. KS as it was conceived vs how it is used now are 2 very different things. Keep up the good work and I for one look forward to your Dusk Haunter unit excel overviews.
I think its pretty clear that CGL is well positioned to go fully retail for Battletech. They've got a roadmap of half a dozen mini releases a year, which is solid support and healthy for the game. This level of releases should be very affordable for them and not need any pre-funding. They are in a virtuous cycle now, and should be self-funding for the foreseeable future.
I could see them doing another KS in a few years, for their other games, but I don't think BT will get another one.
With this much more stable situation for BT, it would be great if they use the next couple of years to create a next edition of BT Classic rules to make the game easier to understand (major rule changes aren't needed - rule formatting and clarification is). I'd also like to see them revamp completely the Alpha Strike rules - it seems to be pretty popular, and really could use a good number of tweaks to make it better.
I Kinda think they need not only some tidy up for the rules, but another ruleset that sits between Battletech and Alpha Strike.
To explain: Coming from spaceship gaming, I generally break games down into 3 levels: Task Force/Fleet, Squadron, and Division, with each getting more detailed as the size drops.
We have Fleet games, like A sky full of Ships, where each ship is quite abstracted, squadrons of ships may have a single sheet representing them, and you can play 30-40 ships in a couple of hours, this is what I would equate Alpha Strike to.
We then have Starfleet Battles and Babylon 5 Wars, where each ship is represented on Tabletop as a ship, you control power distribution, fighter launch, sub-section targeting for each ship, and can play 3-4 ships in a couple of hours, this is where I would put Classic BatteTech.
What we also have in Spaceship gaming is games like Full Thrust and Starmada, where ships have some detail, but not too much, and can play 10-16 ships in a couple of hours.
This is what I think BattleTech is missing, a mid complexity, mid size game. I think something like DFAs Mechwarrior:Destiny would fit well, only issue as a fan project is the rules are spread over a few books, and kinda hard to mesh it all if you aren't as familiar with all the systems.
I'm all in for them doing smaller, more focused Kickstarters to found things like Aces or Solaris sets. But with them ramping up their box set game that hefty even after the Mercs Kickstarter already shows that they can finance said stuff without the need of crowdfunding.
BTW-awesome MWO Leopard dropship on the shelf. I'm working on a Hardware Studios Geopard right now!
I honestly don't think there's enough drive to make another Kickstarter as successful for a completely different
reason. What other specific goal do we as a group want to achieve that we would be willing to fund?
The Clan Invasion KS brought us the start of the return of the Unseen in new plastic versions while the Merc KS
brought us it's completion. It also showed that there was enough interest to start producing plastic vehicles.
That covers plastics for what's often the 2 most played eras.
The other eras are not nearly as popular and even though I'd love to see it Aerotech doesn't seem to
have the demand to make it worthwhile either.
I think that perhaps from here on out we'll get releases in lower numbers and without kickstarters.
Personally I'm very glad that I got to participate in this kickstarter.
We got the ball rolling and contributed to making sure that the unseen returned with updated art.
Don't forget that.
Those Dropships are such great quality; one of the few 3D printed pieces I own and love.
Yeah, the KS is a hell of a ride; ups and downs, but when it comes it's such a buzz!
REM said the company had talked about the possibility of an Aces Kickstarter at some point but that it would be in the future.
I agree with others that any additional kickstarters would be much smaller and more niche.
I'd go for an Aces KS! Nice and contained with a simple end product.
What you say about stress and dissatisfaction of customers is the risk of KS. And it seems much of the good faith and feelings of the early phase of the Merc KS has completely died. So I can see them not wanting this experience again.
As for commercial sense. If they want the game to take off. They need to get the promotion network established here in UK and get stock onto shop shelves.
What I don’t understand is how that goodwill turned so quickly? Was it even ever there?
We are desperate for that European/Asian hub...it would fix so many problems :/
@@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq There's plenty of goodwill left in the community, but that has to be maintained through action on behalf of the company. It doesn't help when you make explicit promises to find options for affordable shipping and six months later present people with a shipping invoice that is unreasonably expensive by any standard. Sure they've dialed it down, but it took people losing their shit immmediately and en masse for them to figure out that the prices that they themselves plugged into the system were wrong. After those promises and efforts, you'd expect people behind the scenes to do a double take when they enter data and the shipping ends up 30-50% of pledges consistently.
I'm certainly down for CGL not have another major KS for big expansions. I'm happy they have a roadmap for the next several years, and those are very attainable. I can see a KS for something niche, like maybe Solaris or maybe Aces. I also agree, they need to diversify their manufacturing, and not have all their eggs in one basket. I doubt it'll ever move stateside just due to how much it will drive up production costs. We'll see.
Cheers.
Trawling the comments here, pretty much everybody has said this. Take note CGL if you ever watch/read this ;)
Long story short, most stuff left China separately to the different HUBS, it is local shipping. Total cost for Shipping and Handling was 2.6 million, handling was 1.2 million which we were not supposed to be charged for but we were. Supporters are responsible for the other 1.4 , BFM was the other issue, I think its a 40$ charge from the Catalyst store all by itself for its odd shape on USA shipping.
Most of this was on the Tuesday Newsday. My account and most others zeroed out on shipping Wednesday night. Mine showed 618$ , I bet when all gets redone it will be around 180$
At Adepticon it sounded like no more KS with Minis, there could be more KS not including Minis. Rumor is Aces could be a KS. Minis sounds like retail only here on out.
I'm glad somebody knows what's going on, Aaron; fancy writing me a script? ;)
Great coverage, love your work!
Thanks! I'm the laziest TH-camr out there, and I get universally great feedback from good people like yourself...work smart, not hard, folks ;)
I think participating in the Kickstarter was enjoyable over all, and as long as the boat doesn't sink on the way here I don't have any regrets about it. But doing the math I can see that I'm paying the same amount per 'Mech as I would buying at retail. I do get the fun little extras like patches and a book, but now that I've got one set of fun little extras, in the future I'll just wait for retail. They have said they won't do another Kickstarter to expand the miniature line, but they said something very similar after the Clan Invasion Kickstarter too.
It is a thrill ride, and when that small cargo container shows up at your door you get a sweet sweet feeling; but, yes, a lot of ups and downs for sure.
I think it may be the end of mech and vehicle kick starters but we still need aerospace and fleet scale ships so that another kick starter, also Battle troops would be another good kickstarter.
Good point.
If they have a third Kickstarter, it won't be of the scale of the first two. It simply can't just from the lack of models with enough nostalgia power to get people to buy them. They need like 30 to 40 models that have never been released. We are already in the age of repositionings and jump chest smoke being the draw for a new models. Sure, they could design things that we've never seen before, but that will not have remotely the same amount of draw. Even with vehicles most of the truly famous ones are done now. If everything in that road map was rolled into a single Kickstarter, do you think it would be a successful?
That's an absolutely excellent point...
No, I don't think it would be anywhere near as successful as their last KS. I think I'd get it, but I'd go from like a $2500 in to maybe $250...which is telling.
There are absolutely more models to print. Alpha strike alone is voracious for vtols vehicles and armor.
The next possible proposed KS I think was for ACES
Ah, very interesting. That would be a good little project with a box, a rule set and a bit of swag.
I think the current postage scandle and the vat miss-charging issue is likely to mean no one will back a CGL KS again. I know I won't be. They said they would have regional shipping hubs. Then they retracted on that and broke contract with us backers. My shipping and vat is coming in at 40% of my pledge. I can ship a 20' steel container across the Atlantic for the same price they are trying to charge us. Add to that the withdrawal of free salvage boxes per pledge. As was stated in the KS down to one per backer. It's safe to say this is leaving a bad taste.
As for plastic manufacturering of models. Anythylike that will depend upon the licence being negotiated with tops for a long enough period to ensure safety of investment.
I am still cautious over that "release" of the schedule. As it's not official.
So I view it as someone in cgl wish list for now.
I will try to do a vid on the shipping/VAT thing this evening, as I recorded this before that nasty boil popped last week.
The last statement I saw was there will be another ks but not for a while
I remember that from one of the kickstarter streams, as someone else has mentioned.
There were going to be more KS, but just not for miniatures anymore I guess?
It would not surprise me that, if CGL now eats the handling costs for transport, CGL sees a lot of its profit of this KS evaporate. Is it even worth it?
I can't see them covering all the local shipping, it would be an incredible cost; they might do a small % as good will, but they'd be ill-advised to soak that all up.
@@duskhaunters3025I believe they said they would cover handling, but shipping would still be for the backer.
Right now, the cost is both shipping and handling.