The new forum layout was a matter of price (free!) not aesthetics. The original forum required a pricey license fee to keep running and still required a lot of work to maintain, so nobody stepped up for that. But anyway, great video and thanks for the shout-out!
Wow, Matt Heffernan! Thanks for the info. I know the forum isn't the highest priority since it isn't the main place for discussion. Although it's still the main place for downloading software, so it may be something the team takes into consideration going into the next production round.
Unless things like the forum and software repositories are well organised, people will lose interest in it after a while. Spending hours rummaging through an "archive", trying to find what you want, only to find old, incompatible software randomly mixed in with newer programs, will quickly become tedious. Along with easily accessible, detailed documentation on all aspects of the system, software is the lifeblood of any platform.
@@InkboxSoftwareI think it should be the main place for discussion. Not only for discoverability but I find Discord extremely annoying. Old-school forums are the best thing for people in the future to find the information they need. Now it's buried somewhere in someone's Discord server usually with invite only.
@@hunta2097(1) Most are emulators or FPGA clones. Which are fine if they’re what you want, but are not exactly what this is going for. And (2) They are still on track for a
Too bad he wouldn't spread the cost of the prototype boards across all sales instead of the first batch. He gave that Adrian guy one. He only got one because he's in their club and wasn't involved in development. That's was incredibly slimy. I think. The 8 bit dick even admitted that with a straight face. I'm not speaking on the hardware quality as I gave away all my 8 bit stuff recently. It would be cool to buy it as a kit and assemble it yourself and write the programs.
@@jstro-hobbytechA lot of folks are willing to wait for the second batch to get it for $350. Or wait longer for the Phase 2 or 3 versions of the board that should be significantly cheaper. The people most eager to support the production and least patient to get it paying an 42% upcharge for the privilege isn’t a real problem to my mind, as long as it becomes available at more affordable prices later.
Sorry I am late to say thank you. TH-cam just recommended this video, so I am seeing it for the first time today. It was cool to see an outside perspective on this project, and very interesting.
It's not a parody when it's exactly the same. It's a "tribute". Not that the guy and this machine doesn't deserves a parody. It needed MORE compromises for the sake of price. I'd say the CPU should of been FPGA, once it was determined the graphics chip needed to be FPGA. IMHO
David (8-Bit Guy) did state that through product revisions, he expects them to go down in price to entice the masses. I will be waiting until then to get one.
True, but those revisions will also be less capable. They won't be as expandable, have as much potential RAM, or be as well-suited to game-making. In a recent video he referred to the first version as the "developer" system and the next revision as the "console" version.
@@jacklawsen6390 Not a significant problem as those who need the maximum specs or most expansion options can still buy the developer system. The core features will still be there on every model (i.e. they will all run the same software).
@@jc33353 Yeah, they'll still run the same software, but they'll be kneecapped as far as development goes. I don't understand why anyone would buy one of these if they didn't have interest in making their own software. Why buy a console that can only play homebrew games made by a small community of hobbyists?
@@jacklawsen6390 However, if you are making games to work on the broadest range of systems, then the console will be quite workable to use as a host for working on games, since it will have the same benefits of 80 column screen, standard layout keyboard and SD card for storage of work in progress.
Interesting review, have been really curious what people think of this (long time fan of the 8-bit Guy). I'll admit I've been skeptical of the merits of this system, but good to see you seem to be enjoying it!
thanks for the quick breakdown. i personally only ALSO want the manual as a back up (sometimes a desk manual can free up a screen,) MOSTLY to have it for shelf display. i only keep a small amount of media in physical form, and it ends up being conversation piece faire. (i'm also thinking of the potential to use close up pics of the manual to make 2D art edits.)
They're cool in that they're another way to create restrictions and allow for creative programming, but if you're trying to mimic the restrictions of 8-Bit computers, why not just program an 8-Bit computer? So they may work for some, but I've never been overly interested.
@@InkboxSoftware I think it's accesibility, It can be hard programming for those old machines. Every PC ever being able to run those fake consoles is also a big plus. Whenever I buy a used PC, a couple Pico-8 games are usually the first thing I run on it.
@@InkboxSoftwareConversely, if you're trying to mimic the restrictions of 8 bit computers, why buy a new, expensive, obscure, poorly documented and overly complicated machine like the X16? There are other ways to access well established, well supported retro 8 bits, with huge software libraries, incredible documentation and far bigger communities. Or buy one of the mdny modern, cheap Z80/6502 boards already available.
The big downside is that they don't restrict RAM use and processor speed. So you can make games that make a i7 go nuts and that don't run at all on a simple Core2Duo, which should be massive overkill for "8-bit like" systems to begin with. Also the resolution is hard for CRT use, although Pico-8 should do fine on PAL scart with line doubling and huge black bars left and right, but then it is 25fps instead of 30fps. 256 scanlines on NTSC will render a part invisible.
Re: Software and forum The good software needs to be front and center. That has huge value! And for many potential users will be a decision influencer. If nothing else, hand that forum section to a user or two who cares about that stuff and let them pick through the goods and arrange it all for max usefulness to everyone. Worth doing.
Hard agree. It's an ouroboros situation. A clear, well designed software distribution channel drives interest in the platform, which incentivizes devs to push forward as they can see audience engagement. I recently pulled my Apple IIe out of storage with the idea of finally (30 years later) writing my RPG. The question I face is... am I writing this purely for myself, or do I hope that others will play it as well? The Apple II "market" is niche to say the least... if there's a possible 8 bit platform that can outlive the dying hardware of any of the niche platforms, that makes more sense. But that can only happen if that platform attracts both weekend developers and the casual audience that appreciate their efforts.
@@fadate7292 can you explain? all the explanation that I am aware of was that the goals of both projects clashed. Please provide links as well so I can read up.
A quick search of the Web shows there are quite a few "new" 8 bit systrms on the market and available to buy, either as a kit or pre-built. 6502 and Z80 are available, plus old Intel 8088 compatible boards. Or the ones built around the venerable16 bit Motorola 68K. Most are cheaper than either the Foenix or the X16.
its 100 pounds MORE than an xbox series S .. absolutely crazy!!! The agon 8 has the idea.. 100 pounds.. great stuff.. and has all the same excitement of creating ur own games in assembler!
4:15 have you tried using SD cards over 32GB? On Windows they can't be formatted to FAT32 (what the X16 definitely wants) by default, so you'll have to find an external program to do this I did this for my Wii (formatting a 256GB card to FAT32) and it works just fine
This is weird in the sdxc standard they selected exfat. It's fine they recommend or prefer it, but why not make fat32 optional for compatibility, as fat32 does support bigger size. As far as I can tell, the hw interface is the same. This should not force the host to support fat32. Good example here for a fat32 usecase.
One thing that bothers me a little about the X16 is the speed of the video processing. It seems sort of slow, there is screen tearing & lag. Is that the best they could come up with, with the video chip subsystem, even in a 65c02 architecture? Is there any DMA involved? 07/07/24
As much as I miss my Commodore 64, I moved on. After watching your issue with the monitor I might hang back a bit on this deal. Still, I remain very interested in this team and concept. Nice review!
I look forward to the X16... in a couple of years when it is geared more towards gamers (if that happens) and not collectors and (hopefully) some developers. To this old school 8bit gamer, this is a fantasy console that is enthusiust only. Thanks for the info. I was curious and this was the first video I saw
That Library of Alexandria joke had me literally laughing out loud. Been following this project for a little while and it's cool to see it finally come to fruition. I'm in the position where I probably wouldn't spend $500 on a developer board due to price, but I also probably wouldn't spend $50 on a system that gets the entire footprint reduced to a single FPGA, because I'd much rather have a board with through-hole chips that I can clearly see and identify. But at least I can still vicariously enjoy it through videos like this one.
Emulator is really good too, i expected it to be too much for a hobby thing, i never used these kinds of computers so no nostalgia for me but i appreciate them making an emulator
9:36 I think you misunderstood what "parody" means, not surprising since it's often used to escape copyright restrictions instead of actual definition: which is too make fun of something, with negative connotations. "Parodies" are mostly nasty, in other words. Your exact duplication is more of a "Tribute". A parody wold be one that was grossly off-key, or slowed and/or sped up, given lyrics etc. Weird Al Yankovich songs are parodies, and protected by copyright law. "Cover songs" are not. Although there's flexibility given live performances, if someone wants to record a song (at least recorded after1924), they need permission from the artist/family or copyright holder. Zappa's family have been very protective, litigious even, so you don't hear his songs covered in recordings.. The reason someone might wrongly call a cover song a "parody", is often in hopes of dodging a lawsuit. The tactic doesn't really work when it's brought to court, nor often from TH-cam, once a complaint is made.
I started programming on various models of the Commodore Pet and later the Commodore 64 when I was a preteen in the 1980's, and I am still programming today. What was cool about these computers was that you were programming from the moment you sat down at the machine, because you were dropped into BASIC. DOS just wasn't the same, and Windows stripped away all of your programmer abilities. Needless to say I switched to Linux in 1994 because the UNIX shell has the same philosophy. When you sit down at a computer you are the programmer. You can write code right on the command line to your heart's content. I would say that my experience with 8 bit computers made me the programmer I am today. At a superficial level I code on Windows 11 today but I bypass everything that makes Windows Windows using Cygwin. I use the command line to bypass the IDEs. They're running so that I can interoperate with my colleagues but not doing anything. It's just so much more fun to have all of the power and not have people do things for you the way they think they should be done.
I too code on Windows 11 but my target is Linux servers or cloud development environments. I just use a VM with vagrant and have VS Code remote development extension so my code runs on Linux, but looks like Windows. For me it is the perfect setup.
I kind of agree about WIndows, before that I had an NEC APC3, it came with a good set of manuals that covered all the bios calls, graphics, everything. then I bought a Windows box, nothing...... I used to program using Borlands Turbo Pascal, among others. Yes I could run that on the new Windows box, but with no idea how to talk to Windows, I kind of stepped back and moved over to micro controllers etc. I'm just now starting to take my Arduino-ised 'C' programming to the Microsoft visual studio, getting quite a few headaches along the way.
Why do you count Linux as "same philosophy" but not DOS? In a shell of Linux you open your text editor, write your code and then compile it. In DOS you do the same. GW-Basic or QBASIC was available, if you had a MS-DOS operating system.
@@OpenGL4ever I'm referring to the documentation you get with the computer, back in the day they usually gave you everything to start coding, these days you get nothing.
@@paulstubbs7678 Today you can download the documentation and all the tools including the compiler for free. It has never been as easy as it is today. While it's true that you used to get a computer with BASIC and a manual for BASIC, but that was just BASIC. Compilers for serious high level languages and Assemblers used to cost money in the early days. There was no such thing as a free C compiler or free assembler. These were all real barriers to entry into professional programming. Today you just have to want to find out more and find the time to practice.
Congratulations on The Commander x16 systems, I personally would be more interested if the successor of AMIGA 1200 system is created, this is when everything was ended with the commodore company, C64 was fine (I owned it first like many people) then moved on to the AMIGA 500 & 1200 at the end, I see the commander X16 is slightly better than the specs of AMIGA 500 (more like an AMIGA 1200 but with lower CPU speed) I wish there would be systems like the AMIGA 1200 in the future with more features like what the Commander x16 currently has.
It has many things in common with the PCE/TG16 game console, of course with the exception that one is a console and the other an 8-bit computer. Hu 6280 was a 65c02 designed by Hudson soft and Epson Seiko @ 7.14 MHZ with integrated audio. Even the last official expansion was a ram memory card called Arcade card with 2MB. The advantage that the commander has is that today SD cards exist and they store a lot of data cheaper and faster than a 1X CD ROM. I wonder if the Komander 16 will be good for developing games that run on PCE. Like some source of dev kiit.
It probably lacks the chiptune capabilities of the PC Engine, which has the best soundchip of any console. I expect it to be very SIDdish unfortunately.
Will depend on the person asking the question. It has the CBM 'kernal', if you're into that. Cheaper than the systems you listed here. Likely easier to obtain since it's not all being done in-house. Stefany's computers are amazing, though. Truly unique and definitely faster than the X16. I'd love to have both, if only I had time and money to build things on both!
It's a shame that it is more or as expensive as an atual modern computer here in the South Américas. At full price+shipping, it comes to over R$2000, for that price you can get any off the shelf modern miniboard and run modern programing languages on them. I don't think that this project will ever get out of this niche hobby circle.
I think the ultimate iteration of the X-16 will be as an FPGA-based motherboard. It will not depend on availability of old 6502 compatible chips (or any others from the 8 bit age), drastically reduce the complexity and size of the motherboard and most importantly, lower the price by a lot. An FPGA based X-16 could almost certainly be sold for under $300 and maybe even $200 or less in quantity.
well, there is already the very capable and great "Mister FPGA DE10 Nano" for simulation of old hardwares .... maybe someone will port the Commander X16 on it ?
@@Kobold666Losing a specific FPGA board isn't a problem. Another one will take it's place and compatability shouldn't be a major problem. The X16 already relies on sound chips that are no longer produced, and that was a mistake. But David also wanted to avoid using FPGA completely... another one of several failed goals for the X16.
And yet, David's original goal was to avoid any use of FPGA. Once the X16 becomes just another FPGA core, it loses its main attraction and starts competing with long established 8 bit platforms. Most of which already have huge software libraries, dozens if not hundreds of books on the system, various magazines and well established communities.
Not sure what you mean. It is basically all proprietary, which means you have to write new games/software for it. Or port it from another platform, which still requires programming. It is a totally new type of computer (or `new-old`) based off the popular 6502 cpu, it is not really compatible with any other new or old computer, although it is patterned off the 8-bit Commodore machines. As the video explained, there are games & other software you can download from the X16 forum. Anyway, besides the X16, another modern-built computer trying to capture the good old days is the FOENIX brand. 07/07/24
Being the 40th viewer and 3rd commenter is such an honnor on your channel. Wait? I was supposed to be telling you about my praise for the 8 bit guy and how he's the one who inspired me to design my own system?? Oh, right! ;) I'm sorry for even mentioning this, but some corrections: 1. DO NOT FORGET BASICALLY ALL ATARI 8 BIT MACHINES. The lynx uses a variant of the 65c02! And let's not forget the BBC micro and many of Atari's arcade stuffs! 2. People also buy consoles for their homebrew. 3. Collectors unfortunately exist. This isn't really a correction, but I personally really hate Forums. Really hard to make an account, and sometimes they have bad management too. Getting onto Lemon64 is like sucking a Lemon, literally. And Atariage treated me like absolute trash sometimes, which is why I left. I'm not going to program for them as a result. "So you don't have to worry about buying the Commandeer X64 in a few years" :(
I'm not a huge fan of forums either, but honestly it's a tough choice between Facebook, Discord, and the forum. But a good wiki would satisfy me most of all.
@@InkboxSoftware The thing that I find limiting on FB is Meta's seeming dislike of a decent user facing search function. I imagine that Zuck's proto-Facebook in his college dorm had a better one.
The X16 forum won't be any different to most other "retro" communities. There will be good and bad aspects, plus friendly and unfriendly people. A lot of it depends on how YOU approach a forum. Going in full of lofty ideas, but having no clue about how (or even if) they can be implemented, is a good way to alienate yourself. Once the hardware is out, yhe X16 will live or die based on the quality of it's documentation, software and it's community.
YOOOO! That intro is awesome! You legit even wrote a petscii intro program and everything. [edit]: You are right about the forum changing designs though. I don't like it either. (Previously, all of the games were directly available on the X16 website, but every "BIT" of software got moved to the forums, and i immediately lost interest cause there aren't any in-game screenshots directly available from the page. Absolute bummer!)
$500 excluding shipping. I understand that pseudo-vintage computers are essentially luxury goods, but at this price point I'd rather go for the Mega65 for its historical significance (Commodore 65 homage). Would love to buy a TheX16 Maxi emulator though if one ever gets made, at least the price won't be as sky-high!
@@InkboxSoftware But not much cheaper. Certainly not cheap enough for most people to scratch a nostalgic itch on a machine which only vaguely resembles anything they nay have used before.
@@another3997 150 US$ cheaper is much I think. The price has been discussed over and over again and the goal of the entire X16 project is to make a smaller version for much less. But that won't be the developer board. Also, many vintage hardware is really expansive if you get to the interesting stuff. And normally you want some add-ons and updates which also add costs. The Mega65 costs over 700 US$ before tax. I can of course understand that Commodore fans would rather pick a Mega65. I also love the case and style of the M65. In comparison to the X16 - where stability in software and programming interfaces was done first (the emulator has been available for years!) - the Mega 65 seems to be a rather unstable and unfinished (software-wise) system in reality. Edit: the Mega 65 is also not available at the time I'm writing this.
@@another3997and it's FPGA and there is an emulator for the CX16 that's free to use but not open source.... This whole project is HUBRIS. What did David Murray get in the meantime? A fancy new Tesla, solar panels out the ass, an office behind his house with A/C, his brother and him opened up a new building to show off all their shit. Hehas said he gets shafted selling a lot of his stuff internationally due to shipping, who's fault is that? Remember Planet X3 and all the "Pizza parties" where he had like 10 people help him like a sweat shop making boxes. Is it no wonder he is so grumpy and arrogant these days? He thinks he's a TH-cam celebrity. Look at the new rules he has on his channel concerning comments. Look at how many people are banned, shadow banned and their comments deleted even for just pointing out a simple fact without vitriol. I feel bad for David's friends and family. All that solder finally fucked his brain up. Sad he wants an empire out of a hobby.
The question people were asking was, "How can I enjoy the hobby of 8-bit computing without spending thousands of dollars on unreliable retro hardware that's on the verge of dying all the time?"
@@KevinFields777 and the answer to that is emulation, especially given that the overwhelming majority of people are using a floppy emulator or other modern mass storage device to have a software library that far exceeds what any user would have been able to amass anyway. I don't need an actual Apple II to get the experience of revisiting my first computer because once I've spent 30 minutes playing a game or two from my youth, I'm going to move on for a while.
@@KevinFields777 There's a group of people who are 8-bit hobbyists, and there are those who enjoy 8-bit computers for nostalgia and/or historical reasons. Hobbyists might be interested in X16, but the rest (which is the vast majority of people) won't care. In my opinion, if you go with FPGA for some important component at any point then there's no point anymore, just emulate the whole thing.
@@KevinFields777Most people asking that question have already found solutions. Either emulate their favourite system in software, buy a FPGA based board to emulate... or maybe bet one of the many other "new", and much cheaper 6502 or Z80 machines available. Most people have nostalgic memories of a particular platform, not a generic 8 bit such as the X16. Those platforms have the benefit of bigger software libraries, large numbers of books, manuals and magazines already available.
Just goes to show you competing with the big boys and thier economies of scale is almost impossible. It seemed pretty well thought out but just because the components are of older design doesn't mean that newly manufactured versions are going to be cheap. With the storage paging there should be plenty of power for productivity apps but with game potential being limited I cant see it gaining any significant foothold. It isn't really innovative like the amiga was. What it is is modern nostalgia. Just have to see how much effort people are willing to put into it.
You don't want to compete with the big boys on their own turf. If you are small you do High Price, High Art, Small Numbers Of Customers. Consider selling for 500 dollars plus per unit of whatever you are making. Make it beautiful so enthusiasts want it. I think any plan of trying mass produce these these in huge numbers is just not gonna work. Focus on quality and hike the price.
Although I have no intention of buying one I am so glad things like that get made, it will be great enjoyment and challenging for some people, not of any interest to some people and of some interest to others who can’t see the point of some of it and wish it was different. Like 70s/80s engine tech, yes you can replace the Carb with a modern day fuel injection system and ECU but for people that grew up with Carb tuning and that is where their knowledge, passion and enjoyment core is, then a modern day Carb that is the pinnacle of development in that field and having a custom ordinary motor to start fresh from but still have the design ethos of a 70s/80s motor is the whole point. I personally am into early fuel injection with the 8bit equivalent of ECUs 😂 and modern day cars that are so much better have no interest to me. That’s because that is the era when I was younger and more enthusiastic about things lol.
don't remember either pitfall or pitfall 2 being released on the either vic 20, c64 or c128 or amiga for that matter, activision and atari 2600 only... i woul.d lof liked to of seen the commander 16 as a jack of all trades and a master of none with dos and something akin too win95c support with scsi and ide/sata support it's getting to the point that to make the hardware relevant for use again we need a multifaceted machine and have it access multiple systems without taking up alot of physical space...
@@bradallen8909 not officially here in australia we didn't, we might of seen it in piracy markets with the gaming crash of 1982 we were lucky to see anything released anything on tandy or commodore.. pitfall only saw release on the 2600, on other system unofficially yes, officially no piracy in ports were rampart back in the 1980's this is why you'll mario bros, super mario bros and donkey kong ports on ther vic-20, c64 and tandy trs-80 don't mean they are legit copies on those platforms Why do you think nintendo goes after people today when playing smb mb and dk on systems that didn't have an official release on that platform.. I had a copy of dk on the tandy doesn't mean it is legal then or today.. this has what has landed some 80's gamers in hot shit today.. I can cite mario bros on the 2600, vic 20, c64, tandy same with smb and dk doesn't mean the games were officially released on all those platform
@@jasonhowe1697 Absolute rubbish. I grew up in Australia. Pitfall (and Pitfall II) were both officially released by Activision for the C64 in the early 1980s. I have both games on cartridge. Do some basic research before making a fool of yourself next time.
@@bradallen8909 i don't remember seeing it even it was released for the c64, i never saw it, then again by the time i was 8 the c64 was all but dead yes it was out though most retail stores weren't stocking c64 then this is back in mid 1985.. even atari at that stage had closed to dried up in game sales then unless you walking into stores that catered for vic 20, c64, amiga, tandy and had a significant software range the likelihood of getting ports on other systems was next to nonexistent i only had access to pitfall and pitfall 2 on the 2600 as for other systems it was ported too i don't know it might of existed on c64 and vic 20 and tandy whether the game is legal is anyone's guess there were alot games piracy in the 80's chance are if you have an 8 bit to 16bit computer system chances are you had a port of any given game and any hardware you had access too great for you I grew up in the 1980's myself and had access to the vic-20, c64 and tandy trs-80 as a kid and i never saw pitfall or pitfall2 on these systems, doesn't mean they weren't available i would of been 4-5 years old in the gaming crash of 1982 , between 85-87 everything was pending release of the nes and sms
@@jasonhowe1697 You're wrong. There was two different versions of Mario Bros. One by Ocean, and one by Atarisoft. Donkey kong was done by Atarisoft. Pitfall was done by Activision themselves (and distributed in Australia by H.E.S.) All games were 100% official releases. I still have the Donkey kong and Pitfall cartridges. Again, do some basic research before making a complete dickhead of yourself.
Can't afford a X16 How about using a Powkiddy RGB30 running Pico8 (a fantasy console) paired with a usb hub, keyboard and mouse, connect a usb power bank and it's basically a portable 8-bit computer that can also be plugged into a monitor/tv via HDMI. Maybe Picotron (described as a fantasy workstation and the follow up to Pico8) in the future will be usable on a similar device/setup. Pico8 works on Raspbery Pi's and similary Picotron has Pi support on the horizon.
There are many other devices out there that can do what the X16 can plus much more. The X16 is $350, I really don't see how he expects it to be successful at all.
Pretty early on this project evolved away from what I would have loved it to be - a beefed up C64. Would have enjoyed built-in disk emulation, higher clock speed, more memory mapped ram and perhaps some extra graphics modes. But what made the C64 so much fun to program IMO was memory mapped I/O and video, as well as the (video triggered) interrupt system which the X16 soon left. Oh well, I applaud any project keeping the 8-bit vibe alive and not having to decide to buy one or not is good I guess…
@@AstroTechGuy Thanks, had a look at the ‘book’ (I’d say reference guide) in the downloads section and that’s quite a useful resource like the C64 one. I would have designed it more from C64 compatibility up, but that would have come at the cost of capabilities. The tradeoff they made by taking the C65 as starting point makes a lot of sense and it looks like a fine machine to tinker with if I had the time…
Mega65 seems more interesting to me as hardware as it can still run C64 and even some emulator software. It's also like 8x faster. It's a shame we've got incompatible systems. What got the C64 so much software was the sheer number of users. A hobbyist machine isn't going to do that. An Amiga 1200 has more capabilities overall. I just don't get retro that isn't retro, but "new" OLD. I get nostalgia, but this seems more like nostalgia for programming in basic or assembly than for gamers that made up most of the C64 fan base. Nothing can compare to going to old school user groups in the 1980s as a 9 year old and coming home with 20 new games. That lead to an Amiga 500 and then an Amiga 3000 and eventually a PowerPC Mac and then Intel Macs (to heck on Bill Gates!). My issue now is both Apple and Microsoft are nothing but GREED MACHINES. I'm more interested in an Amiga replacement with modern PC capabilities (the direction Apple should have gone with the Mac instead of ARM. it was just getting a decent amount of games around 2012-2015 when OpenGL updates just stopped and they went to Metal and then killed 32-bit in the OS which was 3/4 their games, all but killing easy PC ports! Then ARM came and Macs are more like 1990s Macs with almost no gaming software. Good Job Crapple! You've earned that title once more. Meanwhile Microsoft has gone full Spyware and ads in their OS. It's embarrassing. Better to get a Mac and PS5 I guess....
$500???? While I have spent over that for some verified working vintage systems (Commodores, Amiga's, Apple's, TRS's) this is not gonna happen for me. But as they say "you do you, I do me"!
@@ramakrishnamishra8179historical reasons. It was originally going to have a 16 bit processor, but sharing pins for both data and address (depending on clock cycle) made hardware difficult. By the time the decision was made to go with the 65c02, the name had stuck.
@@digitaljestinNo, according to David himself, it was always going to be based around a 6502 chip. Just watch his first video on his "ideal computer" for confirmation.
I do have some doubts on certain aspects on the hardware: - 8kB mapping is too limited. I know people who write a graphical OS for say a CPC or MSX, but they need at least 32kB banks to make it workable - the board should have RGB 15kHz out. I know Dave is from the US, and RGB TV's are more rare than pictures of a grey hair Trump, but you want the best out-of-the-box display experience, which is on an RGB CRT TV. - the power section looks very weird, like a PC ATX connector with many unused pins. A machine like this should be designed 100% on 5V TTL, and with modern components 3A should be plenty, so please use a USB connector for a generic 3A USB phone charger.
I think one reason to get this instead of an old computer is that it is made from newer and available parts. Of course you can repair a lot of old machines, too. But one benefit of the X16 it is designed to be available with standard parts off the shelf for years to come. The biggest plus IMHO is the decision to go with an easy to use Multi-Button-Pad. If you actually play a lot of the old Commodore, Atari and Amiga Games, having to use the keyboard AND the joystick at the same time in most games _is_ really annoying (most Atari-Style connected Pads/Sticks only address one or two buttons). And while it uses the original Commodore/Microsoft Basic it was improved in many details and the hardware is much faster than any historical 8 bit system of the past. I'm still not 100% sure if I will get one because anything I've tried so far with 6502 systems (C64, Atari 800, X16) beyond BASIC never seems to work ;)
Many of the parts in the X16 are no longer being produced. Lots of stock still available, but it's going to run out in several years. "Years to come" is technically true, but the phrase would normally be used in an indefinite sense.
Ive been following this on The 8-Bit guy's channel ever since he started it. While I was born past the days of 8 bit computers (1990) and didn't even learn what a computer was until I was like 4 or 5 years old Id like to get my hands on one of these in the future.
Kick Ar$e! I'd love to get one, but I don't have the fund$... I Have Kiddos... Emulation it is. But Definitely been following this since the beginning, Sweet HomeBrew Hardware
$350 USD and no that isn't a typo. If you really want the retro 80s experiance of programming in Basic you could just buy an 80s computer for cheaper. It would also have the benefit of having 1,000s of programs and games released for it.
The Commander x16 isn't just for the old farts who want to relive the 80's, I'm sure there's lots of younger people like yourself (and maybe even myself once cheaper generations release) would be much into it as a sort of tinkering system. Especially if they can replicate a thing similar to what the Pi has. (A small and cheap form-factor.)
Communities are two way streets. How you approach them has a lot to do with how they approach you. There will always be diehard fanatics or overly opinionated, extremely vocal people on any forum or community. The X16 won't be immune to that. Besides, being heavily "inspired" by old Commodore 8 bits, the X16 isn't "nostalgia-free". 😉
Nice computer. But I dont buy it. 😐 I dont like the 6502... yeah they say it is faster then the z80.. but I can program the z80 with the much more advance instruktion set then the 6502. So i l tink the z80 is a beter cpu. (At lest i think so). But still very nice computer you have.😊 Can I give a tip? Give your in built Basic program language a upgrade. Make it with local and global variables.... Your half way there. you made it to subroutine parts... But you can go all they way and implement global and local variables. Say no local variables Just a gosub (to a subroutine) Or a gosub with local variables.. Gosub "RoutineName" (variable 1, variable 2, variable 3... ) Return (valuta 1, valuta 2, valuta 3....) Then the Basic can make recusive commands... that was a big disadvantage of Basic.
Sounds like you need a CPC. It is Z80, and with the available expansions, it can do really much. I got a CPC 464 with Ulifac (512kB+UART/WIFI/ETHERNET+6128 mode+USB drive) and a good RGB SCART cable, it is like 150 bucks in total, and it is awesome.
If I want to program with restrictions I'd write for a $1 arm or riscv chip. riscv assembly is pretty elegant and I can run that in qemu. I will never understand why somebody would want to write basic or 6502 assembly both belong in the past.
People do these things because they enjoyed doing it in the past, or they wanted to do it, but for some reason, they never did. Personally, I don't see the attraction of the X16, but I do understand nostalgia or historical interest. The ARM architecture was literally developed and tested ON a 6502 based machine. Just two people at Acorn, using the BBC Micro (which they also developed, along with BBC Basic) to simulate their new ARM ISA. The first "Acorn Risc Machine" silicon was a development co-pro for that computer. Then it was used in their Archimedes computers and beyond, with their proprietary RiscOS. Which is now free, being updated, and runs natively on the Raspberry Pi and several other ARM machines. But the RPi itself was inspired directly by the BBC Micro used in British schools. History is what gave us the present.
As one of those who was on the BBS Scene in the 80's and 90's... except for using HTML boxes and proportional fonts instead of CP 437 Box Drawing characters (CP 437 0xB3 to 0xDA) and the monospacing of CP 437 standard fonts.... The forums really don't look much different than lazy BBS Sysops used in the 90's.
The new forum layout was a matter of price (free!) not aesthetics. The original forum required a pricey license fee to keep running and still required a lot of work to maintain, so nobody stepped up for that. But anyway, great video and thanks for the shout-out!
Wow, Matt Heffernan! Thanks for the info. I know the forum isn't the highest priority since it isn't the main place for discussion. Although it's still the main place for downloading software, so it may be something the team takes into consideration going into the next production round.
Unless things like the forum and software repositories are well organised, people will lose interest in it after a while. Spending hours rummaging through an "archive", trying to find what you want, only to find old, incompatible software randomly mixed in with newer programs, will quickly become tedious. Along with easily accessible, detailed documentation on all aspects of the system, software is the lifeblood of any platform.
I don't know, I prefer old school forums. The new ones irritate me.
@@another3997 idk. forums are way better than discord yet everything is moving to discord.
@@InkboxSoftwareI think it should be the main place for discussion. Not only for discoverability but I find Discord extremely annoying. Old-school forums are the best thing for people in the future to find the information they need. Now it's buried somewhere in someone's Discord server usually with invite only.
Love the 8-bit guy style intro hah.
same
loved the 8-bit guy intro tribute
As a retro enthusiast who loves projects like PICO-8, I will 100% be following Commander X16!
There are cheaper and better alternatives if you want a modern 8 bit.
@@hunta2097 Okay... I'm using the official emulator.
@@hunta2097 Cheaper, yes. "Better" will be depending on what a person is looking for. But it's great that such choices exist. Something for everyone!
But your list of alternatives has zero names on it.
@@hunta2097(1) Most are emulators or FPGA clones. Which are fine if they’re what you want, but are not exactly what this is going for. And (2) They are still on track for a
Very sober review. Thank you.
The intro was cool
Too bad he wouldn't spread the cost of the prototype boards across all sales instead of the first batch. He gave that Adrian guy one. He only got one because he's in their club and wasn't involved in development. That's was incredibly slimy. I think. The 8 bit dick even admitted that with a straight face. I'm not speaking on the hardware quality as I gave away all my 8 bit stuff recently. It would be cool to buy it as a kit and assemble it yourself and write the programs.
@@jstro-hobbytech ok
Lol yeah
@@jstro-hobbytechA lot of folks are willing to wait for the second batch to get it for $350. Or wait longer for the Phase 2 or 3 versions of the board that should be significantly cheaper. The people most eager to support the production and least patient to get it paying an 42% upcharge for the privilege isn’t a real problem to my mind, as long as it becomes available at more affordable prices later.
When I first saw the vid:
Inkbox: I've waited so long to do this...
Me: do what?
Inkbox: The 8-Bit Guy intro parody
Me: o_h
Sorry I am late to say thank you. TH-cam just recommended this video, so I am seeing it for the first time today. It was cool to see an outside perspective on this project, and very interesting.
lol i love how you parodied the 8-bit guy's intro
It's not a parody when it's exactly the same. It's a "tribute". Not that the guy and this machine doesn't deserves a parody. It needed MORE compromises for the sake of price. I'd say the CPU should of been FPGA, once it was determined the graphics chip needed to be FPGA. IMHO
@@squirlmy it's not exactly the same. have you actually watched an 8-bit guy video lol
0:00 That intro! 😂
1:22 That date stamp on the Yamaha chip! 😲
The Commander X16 is Finally Reviewed!
I look forward to seeing this project evolve and hopefully picking up a dev board one of these days.
David (8-Bit Guy) did state that through product revisions, he expects them to go down in price to entice the masses. I will be waiting until then to get one.
True, but those revisions will also be less capable. They won't be as expandable, have as much potential RAM, or be as well-suited to game-making. In a recent video he referred to the first version as the "developer" system and the next revision as the "console" version.
@@jacklawsen6390 Not a significant problem as those who need the maximum specs or most expansion options can still buy the developer system. The core features will still be there on every model (i.e. they will all run the same software).
@@jc33353 Yeah, they'll still run the same software, but they'll be kneecapped as far as development goes. I don't understand why anyone would buy one of these if they didn't have interest in making their own software. Why buy a console that can only play homebrew games made by a small community of hobbyists?
@@jacklawsen6390 However, if you are making games to work on the broadest range of systems, then the console will be quite workable to use as a host for working on games, since it will have the same benefits of 80 column screen, standard layout keyboard and SD card for storage of work in progress.
The console version still has the cartridge port, so Ram Expanders and ram in games is feasible, so the only real downgrade is the fpga board
Interesting review, have been really curious what people think of this (long time fan of the 8-bit Guy). I'll admit I've been skeptical of the merits of this system, but good to see you seem to be enjoying it!
thanks for the quick breakdown.
i personally only ALSO want the manual as a back up (sometimes a desk manual can free up a screen,) MOSTLY to have it for shelf display. i only keep a small amount of media in physical form, and it ends up being conversation piece faire. (i'm also thinking of the potential to use close up pics of the manual to make 2D art edits.)
Bro had me dying at Library of Alexandria... AFTER it burned down.
what do you think to virtual consoles, for example Pico8 and TIC80?
They're cool in that they're another way to create restrictions and allow for creative programming, but if you're trying to mimic the restrictions of 8-Bit computers, why not just program an 8-Bit computer? So they may work for some, but I've never been overly interested.
@@InkboxSoftware I think it's accesibility, It can be hard programming for those old machines. Every PC ever being able to run those fake consoles is also a big plus. Whenever I buy a used PC, a couple Pico-8 games are usually the first thing I run on it.
@@InkboxSoftwareConversely, if you're trying to mimic the restrictions of 8 bit computers, why buy a new, expensive, obscure, poorly documented and overly complicated machine like the X16? There are other ways to access well established, well supported retro 8 bits, with huge software libraries, incredible documentation and far bigger communities. Or buy one of the mdny modern, cheap Z80/6502 boards already available.
The big downside is that they don't restrict RAM use and processor speed. So you can make games that make a i7 go nuts and that don't run at all on a simple Core2Duo, which should be massive overkill for "8-bit like" systems to begin with. Also the resolution is hard for CRT use, although Pico-8 should do fine on PAL scart with line doubling and huge black bars left and right, but then it is 25fps instead of 30fps. 256 scanlines on NTSC will render a part invisible.
programming your own parody intro was the chefs kiss.
Instant like for the intro alone!
.
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That intro made me chuckle
Re: Software and forum
The good software needs to be front and center. That has huge value! And for many potential users will be a decision influencer.
If nothing else, hand that forum section to a user or two who cares about that stuff and let them pick through the goods and arrange it all for max usefulness to everyone. Worth doing.
Just making it sort the software by most popular/downloaded would probably make it a lot easier to navigate.
Hard agree. It's an ouroboros situation.
A clear, well designed software distribution channel drives interest in the platform, which incentivizes devs to push forward as they can see audience engagement.
I recently pulled my Apple IIe out of storage with the idea of finally (30 years later) writing my RPG. The question I face is... am I writing this purely for myself, or do I hope that others will play it as well? The Apple II "market" is niche to say the least... if there's a possible 8 bit platform that can outlive the dying hardware of any of the niche platforms, that makes more sense. But that can only happen if that platform attracts both weekend developers and the casual audience that appreciate their efforts.
@@brotherbeagle write it for you. Retro is fun. know it will get played. i might play it. the Apple community is small, but active.
What exactly is this cube shown at 10:33 ?
Have you checked out the Foenix Retro F256 K or F256 Jr? Those are also amazing 8 bit computers.
@@fadate7292 can you explain? all the explanation that I am aware of was that the goals of both projects clashed. Please provide links as well so I can read up.
A quick search of the Web shows there are quite a few "new" 8 bit systrms on the market and available to buy, either as a kit or pre-built. 6502 and Z80 are available, plus old Intel 8088 compatible boards. Or the ones built around the venerable16 bit Motorola 68K. Most are cheaper than either the Foenix or the X16.
Great review and I really like all of your recommendations!
great video. productive criticism. Hope the team listens up.
0:27 any reason you blatantly ignored Atari ?
lol its not real HW
I just got a note that my X16 is shipping! :O
its 100 pounds MORE than an xbox series S .. absolutely crazy!!! The agon 8 has the idea.. 100 pounds.. great stuff.. and has all the same excitement of creating ur own games in assembler!
4:15 have you tried using SD cards over 32GB? On Windows they can't be formatted to FAT32 (what the X16 definitely wants) by default, so you'll have to find an external program to do this
I did this for my Wii (formatting a 256GB card to FAT32) and it works just fine
This is weird in the sdxc standard they selected exfat. It's fine they recommend or prefer it, but why not make fat32 optional for compatibility, as fat32 does support bigger size. As far as I can tell, the hw interface is the same. This should not force the host to support fat32.
Good example here for a fat32 usecase.
@@TheStuartstardustBecause a filesystem designed in 1978 has too much hurdles to modern usage.
Great Video! Loved the 8-bit guy style intro.
if i where david i would copyright strike him for using his intro music
One thing that bothers me a little about the X16 is the speed of the video processing. It seems sort of slow, there is screen tearing & lag. Is that the best they could come up with, with the video chip subsystem, even in a 65c02 architecture? Is there any DMA involved?
07/07/24
Can you use a VGA to HDMI converter cable and connect to a modern monitor?
You could as well run the emulator if you want HDMI.
I have a question is the commander 16 compatible with NEC,PC 88 and sharp X 1 games I hope you can reach out to me soon
As much as I miss my Commodore 64, I moved on. After watching your issue with the monitor I might hang back a bit on this deal. Still, I remain very interested in this team and concept. Nice review!
I went with the Spectrum Next project KickStarter 2. Those are about to go out in the next month or so too.
I agree with your comment about programs/code being buried in a 'chat site', kind of useless.
love the giant READY!
I look forward to the X16... in a couple of years when it is geared more towards gamers (if that happens) and not collectors and (hopefully) some developers. To this old school 8bit gamer, this is a fantasy console that is enthusiust only.
Thanks for the info. I was curious and this was the first video I saw
A Raspberry Pi 400 is a far better option for that than the X16
If @8BitGuy is willing to do this, include a demo version of Petci Robots.
David did a video that shows some of the porting of Petscii Robots and it shows some of the gameplay. th-cam.com/video/r9J64LgG5p0/w-d-xo.html
The boards from the pre-order come with an SD card full of games and various demos along with a full version of PETSCII Robots for the X16.
That Library of Alexandria joke had me literally laughing out loud.
Been following this project for a little while and it's cool to see it finally come to fruition. I'm in the position where I probably wouldn't spend $500 on a developer board due to price, but I also probably wouldn't spend $50 on a system that gets the entire footprint reduced to a single FPGA, because I'd much rather have a board with through-hole chips that I can clearly see and identify. But at least I can still vicariously enjoy it through videos like this one.
Emulator is really good too, i expected it to be too much for a hobby thing, i never used these kinds of computers so no nostalgia for me but i appreciate them making an emulator
Sogay
0:04 The intro is so damn cool and close to the original 👌😃
9:36 I think you misunderstood what "parody" means, not surprising since it's often used to escape copyright restrictions instead of actual definition: which is too make fun of something, with negative connotations. "Parodies" are mostly nasty, in other words. Your exact duplication is more of a "Tribute". A parody wold be one that was grossly off-key, or slowed and/or sped up, given lyrics etc. Weird Al Yankovich songs are parodies, and protected by copyright law. "Cover songs" are not. Although there's flexibility given live performances, if someone wants to record a song (at least recorded after1924), they need permission from the artist/family or copyright holder. Zappa's family have been very protective, litigious even, so you don't hear his songs covered in recordings.. The reason someone might wrongly call a cover song a "parody", is often in hopes of dodging a lawsuit. The tactic doesn't really work when it's brought to court, nor often from TH-cam, once a complaint is made.
I started programming on various models of the Commodore Pet and later the Commodore 64 when I was a preteen in the 1980's, and I am still programming today. What was cool about these computers was that you were programming from the moment you sat down at the machine, because you were dropped into BASIC. DOS just wasn't the same, and Windows stripped away all of your programmer abilities. Needless to say I switched to Linux in 1994 because the UNIX shell has the same philosophy. When you sit down at a computer you are the programmer. You can write code right on the command line to your heart's content. I would say that my experience with 8 bit computers made me the programmer I am today. At a superficial level I code on Windows 11 today but I bypass everything that makes Windows Windows using Cygwin. I use the command line to bypass the IDEs. They're running so that I can interoperate with my colleagues but not doing anything. It's just so much more fun to have all of the power and not have people do things for you the way they think they should be done.
I too code on Windows 11 but my target is Linux servers or cloud development environments. I just use a VM with vagrant and have VS Code remote development extension so my code runs on Linux, but looks like Windows. For me it is the perfect setup.
I kind of agree about WIndows, before that I had an NEC APC3, it came with a good set of manuals that covered all the bios calls, graphics, everything. then I bought a Windows box, nothing......
I used to program using Borlands Turbo Pascal, among others. Yes I could run that on the new Windows box, but with no idea how to talk to Windows, I kind of stepped back and moved over to micro controllers etc.
I'm just now starting to take my Arduino-ised 'C' programming to the Microsoft visual studio, getting quite a few headaches along the way.
Why do you count Linux as "same philosophy" but not DOS?
In a shell of Linux you open your text editor, write your code and then compile it.
In DOS you do the same. GW-Basic or QBASIC was available, if you had a MS-DOS operating system.
@@OpenGL4ever I'm referring to the documentation you get with the computer, back in the day they usually gave you everything to start coding, these days you get nothing.
@@paulstubbs7678 Today you can download the documentation and all the tools including the compiler for free. It has never been as easy as it is today.
While it's true that you used to get a computer with BASIC and a manual for BASIC, but that was just BASIC.
Compilers for serious high level languages and Assemblers used to cost money in the early days. There was no such thing as a free C compiler or free assembler. These were all real barriers to entry into professional programming.
Today you just have to want to find out more and find the time to practice.
Commander x64, i'm building that now
Congratulations on The Commander x16 systems, I personally would be more interested if the successor of AMIGA 1200 system is created, this is when everything was ended with the commodore company, C64 was fine (I owned it first like many people) then moved on to the AMIGA 500 & 1200 at the end, I see the commander X16 is slightly better than the specs of AMIGA 500 (more like an AMIGA 1200 but with lower CPU speed) I wish there would be systems like the AMIGA 1200 in the future with more features like what the Commander x16 currently has.
Take a look at Foenix Retro Systems. They have several lines of retro computers from 8 bit to 32 bit.
Right, a modern Amiga would be something I'd be interested in. I went straight PC back in the day and so I missed the entire Amiga era.
0:58: Why wouldn't it be safe to plug the expansion card into the computer?
It has many things in common with the PCE/TG16 game console, of course with the exception that one is a console and the other an 8-bit computer. Hu 6280 was a 65c02 designed by Hudson soft and Epson Seiko @ 7.14 MHZ with integrated audio. Even the last official expansion was a ram memory card called Arcade card with 2MB. The advantage that the commander has is that today SD cards exist and they store a lot of data cheaper and faster than a 1X CD ROM. I wonder if the Komander 16 will be good for developing games that run on PCE. Like some source of dev kiit.
It probably lacks the chiptune capabilities of the PC Engine, which has the best soundchip of any console. I expect it to be very SIDdish unfortunately.
Love-it
What advantage does Commander X16 have when compared to Foenix F256K or Foenix A2560X retro computers?
Will depend on the person asking the question. It has the CBM 'kernal', if you're into that. Cheaper than the systems you listed here. Likely easier to obtain since it's not all being done in-house.
Stefany's computers are amazing, though. Truly unique and definitely faster than the X16. I'd love to have both, if only I had time and money to build things on both!
It's a shame that it is more or as expensive as an atual modern computer here in the South Américas.
At full price+shipping, it comes to over R$2000, for that price you can get any off the shelf modern miniboard and run modern programing languages on them.
I don't think that this project will ever get out of this niche hobby circle.
Too bad it's not 68k. I'd buy it if it were
I think the ultimate iteration of the X-16 will be as an FPGA-based motherboard. It will not depend on availability of old 6502 compatible chips (or any others from the 8 bit age), drastically reduce the complexity and size of the motherboard and most importantly, lower the price by a lot. An FPGA based X-16 could almost certainly be sold for under $300 and maybe even $200 or less in quantity.
well, there is already the very capable and great "Mister FPGA DE10 Nano" for simulation of old hardwares .... maybe someone will port the Commander X16 on it ?
@@Kobold666Losing a specific FPGA board isn't a problem. Another one will take it's place and compatability shouldn't be a major problem. The X16 already relies on sound chips that are no longer produced, and that was a mistake. But David also wanted to avoid using FPGA completely... another one of several failed goals for the X16.
And yet, David's original goal was to avoid any use of FPGA. Once the X16 becomes just another FPGA core, it loses its main attraction and starts competing with long established 8 bit platforms. Most of which already have huge software libraries, dozens if not hundreds of books on the system, various magazines and well established communities.
@@another3997I think the finished board uses an fpga chip for video output right? Or did they use it anywhere else?
@@parana2853 video, SD card handling, the SNES controllers, and some of the Sound options.
Is there an emulator for the thing? I have neither space nor money to get a physical one.
I dont understand....what platform games running on this pc?
Not sure what you mean. It is basically all proprietary, which means you have to write new games/software for it. Or port it from another platform, which still requires programming. It is a totally new type of computer (or `new-old`) based off the popular 6502 cpu, it is not really compatible with any other new or old computer, although it is patterned off the 8-bit Commodore machines. As the video explained, there are games & other software you can download from the X16 forum. Anyway, besides the X16, another modern-built computer trying to capture the good old days is the FOENIX brand.
07/07/24
@@robwebnoid5763 My understanding is that it can run C64 software as well.
I would like to see them go back to the original website layout. My X16 is supposed to be here tomorrow.
Being the 40th viewer and 3rd commenter is such an honnor on your channel.
Wait? I was supposed to be telling you about my praise for the 8 bit guy and how he's the one who inspired me to design my own system?? Oh, right! ;)
I'm sorry for even mentioning this, but some corrections:
1. DO NOT FORGET BASICALLY ALL ATARI 8 BIT MACHINES. The lynx uses a variant of the 65c02! And let's not forget the BBC micro and many of Atari's arcade stuffs!
2. People also buy consoles for their homebrew.
3. Collectors unfortunately exist.
This isn't really a correction, but I personally really hate Forums. Really hard to make an account, and sometimes they have bad management too. Getting onto Lemon64 is like sucking a Lemon, literally. And Atariage treated me like absolute trash sometimes, which is why I left. I'm not going to program for them as a result.
"So you don't have to worry about buying the Commandeer X64 in a few years" :(
I'm not a huge fan of forums either, but honestly it's a tough choice between Facebook, Discord, and the forum. But a good wiki would satisfy me most of all.
@@InkboxSoftware The thing that I find limiting on FB is Meta's seeming dislike of a decent user facing search function. I imagine that Zuck's proto-Facebook in his college dorm had a better one.
The X16 forum won't be any different to most other "retro" communities. There will be good and bad aspects, plus friendly and unfriendly people. A lot of it depends on how YOU approach a forum. Going in full of lofty ideas, but having no clue about how (or even if) they can be implemented, is a good way to alienate yourself. Once the hardware is out, yhe X16 will live or die based on the quality of it's documentation, software and it's community.
YOOOO! That intro is awesome!
You legit even wrote a petscii intro program and everything.
[edit]: You are right about the forum changing designs though. I don't like it either. (Previously, all of the games were directly available on the X16 website, but every "BIT" of software got moved to the forums, and i immediately lost interest cause there aren't any in-game screenshots directly available from the page. Absolute bummer!)
This X16 looks so beautiful!
What's with those SNES connectors? They look discolored, like they were just salvaged from an old SNES...?
We need one with 2 DB-9 ports instead for our Arcade Turbo sticks. Snes pads... Yikes.
I have a dev model but have one on order! I’m going to build it myself
I’m going to use my NEC multi sync I use for my other rigs
Good video! You should review the Agon light! It’s also a new 8 bit computer, but for $50 not $500
I love the intro lol
On Facebook VS Discord VS Forum. Would be nice if we just jumped straight to the open Fediverse and started discussing on Lemmy
$500 excluding shipping. I understand that pseudo-vintage computers are essentially luxury goods, but at this price point I'd rather go for the Mega65 for its historical significance (Commodore 65 homage). Would love to buy a TheX16 Maxi emulator though if one ever gets made, at least the price won't be as sky-high!
Only the first few units were that much, the rest will be cheaper
@@InkboxSoftware But not much cheaper. Certainly not cheap enough for most people to scratch a nostalgic itch on a machine which only vaguely resembles anything they nay have used before.
@@another3997 150 US$ cheaper is much I think. The price has been discussed over and over again and the goal of the entire X16 project is to make a smaller version for much less. But that won't be the developer board. Also, many vintage hardware is really expansive if you get to the interesting stuff. And normally you want some add-ons and updates which also add costs.
The Mega65 costs over 700 US$ before tax. I can of course understand that Commodore fans would rather pick a Mega65. I also love the case and style of the M65. In comparison to the X16 - where stability in software and programming interfaces was done first (the emulator has been available for years!) - the Mega 65 seems to be a rather unstable and unfinished (software-wise) system in reality.
Edit: the Mega 65 is also not available at the time I'm writing this.
@@another3997and it's FPGA and there is an emulator for the CX16 that's free to use but not open source.... This whole project is HUBRIS. What did David Murray get in the meantime? A fancy new Tesla, solar panels out the ass, an office behind his house with A/C, his brother and him opened up a new building to show off all their shit. Hehas said he gets shafted selling a lot of his stuff internationally due to shipping, who's fault is that? Remember Planet X3 and all the "Pizza parties" where he had like 10 people help him like a sweat shop making boxes. Is it no wonder he is so grumpy and arrogant these days? He thinks he's a TH-cam celebrity. Look at the new rules he has on his channel concerning comments. Look at how many people are banned, shadow banned and their comments deleted even for just pointing out a simple fact without vitriol. I feel bad for David's friends and family. All that solder finally fucked his brain up. Sad he wants an empire out of a hobby.
LOL the intro
This review pretty much cements what I'd already decided: this thing is the solution to a question no one was actually asking
The question people were asking was, "How can I enjoy the hobby of 8-bit computing without spending thousands of dollars on unreliable retro hardware that's on the verge of dying all the time?"
@@KevinFields777 and the answer to that is emulation, especially given that the overwhelming majority of people are using a floppy emulator or other modern mass storage device to have a software library that far exceeds what any user would have been able to amass anyway. I don't need an actual Apple II to get the experience of revisiting my first computer because once I've spent 30 minutes playing a game or two from my youth, I'm going to move on for a while.
@@KevinFields777 There's a group of people who are 8-bit hobbyists, and there are those who enjoy 8-bit computers for nostalgia and/or historical reasons. Hobbyists might be interested in X16, but the rest (which is the vast majority of people) won't care. In my opinion, if you go with FPGA for some important component at any point then there's no point anymore, just emulate the whole thing.
@@KevinFields777Most people asking that question have already found solutions. Either emulate their favourite system in software, buy a FPGA based board to emulate... or maybe bet one of the many other "new", and much cheaper 6502 or Z80 machines available. Most people have nostalgic memories of a particular platform, not a generic 8 bit such as the X16. Those platforms have the benefit of bigger software libraries, large numbers of books, manuals and magazines already available.
@@KevinFields777who knew the answer to that was "a ton of feature creep thats taken it miles away from what anyone actually wanted"
Just goes to show you competing with the big boys and thier economies of scale is almost impossible. It seemed pretty well thought out but just because the components are of older design doesn't mean that newly manufactured versions are going to be cheap. With the storage paging there should be plenty of power for productivity apps but with game potential being limited I cant see it gaining any significant foothold. It isn't really innovative like the amiga was. What it is is modern nostalgia. Just have to see how much effort people are willing to put into it.
You don't want to compete with the big boys on their own turf. If you are small you do High Price, High Art, Small Numbers Of Customers. Consider selling for 500 dollars plus per unit of whatever you are making. Make it beautiful so enthusiasts want it. I think any plan of trying mass produce these these in huge numbers is just not gonna work. Focus on quality and hike the price.
If you can play Pokemon on it then I’m all for it!
Although I have no intention of buying one I am so glad things like that get made, it will be great enjoyment and challenging for some people, not of any interest to some people and of some interest to others who can’t see the point of some of it and wish it was different.
Like 70s/80s engine tech, yes you can replace the Carb with a modern day fuel injection system and ECU but for people that grew up with Carb tuning and that is where their knowledge, passion and enjoyment core is, then a modern day Carb that is the pinnacle of development in that field and having a custom ordinary motor to start fresh from but still have the design ethos of a 70s/80s motor is the whole point.
I personally am into early fuel injection with the 8bit equivalent of ECUs 😂 and modern day cars that are so much better have no interest to me. That’s because that is the era when I was younger and more enthusiastic about things lol.
don't remember either pitfall or pitfall 2 being released on the either vic 20, c64 or c128 or amiga for that matter, activision and atari 2600 only...
i woul.d lof liked to of seen the commander 16 as a jack of all trades and a master of none with dos and something akin too win95c support with scsi and ide/sata support
it's getting to the point that to make the hardware relevant for use again we need a multifaceted machine and have it access multiple systems without taking up alot of physical space...
Pitfall and Pitfall 2 were both released for the C64.
@@bradallen8909 not officially here in australia we didn't, we might of seen it in piracy markets with the gaming crash of 1982 we were lucky to see anything released anything on tandy or commodore..
pitfall only saw release on the 2600, on other system unofficially yes, officially no piracy in ports were rampart back in the 1980's this is why you'll mario bros, super mario bros and donkey kong ports on ther vic-20, c64 and tandy trs-80 don't mean they are legit copies on those platforms
Why do you think nintendo goes after people today when playing smb mb and dk on systems that didn't have an official release on that platform..
I had a copy of dk on the tandy doesn't mean it is legal then or today..
this has what has landed some 80's gamers in hot shit today..
I can cite mario bros on the 2600, vic 20, c64, tandy same with smb and dk doesn't mean the games were officially released on all those platform
@@jasonhowe1697 Absolute rubbish. I grew up in Australia. Pitfall (and Pitfall II) were both officially released by Activision for the C64 in the early 1980s. I have both games on cartridge.
Do some basic research before making a fool of yourself next time.
@@bradallen8909 i don't remember seeing it even it was released for the c64, i never saw it, then again by the time i was 8 the c64 was all but dead yes it was out though most retail stores weren't stocking c64 then this is back in mid 1985.. even atari at that stage had closed to dried up in game sales then
unless you walking into stores that catered for vic 20, c64, amiga, tandy and had a significant software range the likelihood of getting ports on other systems was next to nonexistent i only had access to pitfall and pitfall 2 on the 2600 as for other systems it was ported too i don't know it might of existed on c64 and vic 20 and tandy whether the game is legal is anyone's guess there were alot games piracy in the 80's chance are if you have an 8 bit to 16bit computer system chances are you had a port of any given game and any hardware you had access too great for you
I grew up in the 1980's myself and had access to the vic-20, c64 and tandy trs-80 as a kid and i never saw pitfall or pitfall2 on these systems, doesn't mean they weren't available i would of been 4-5 years old in the gaming crash of 1982 , between 85-87 everything was pending release of the nes and sms
@@jasonhowe1697 You're wrong.
There was two different versions of Mario Bros. One by Ocean, and one by Atarisoft.
Donkey kong was done by Atarisoft.
Pitfall was done by Activision themselves (and distributed in Australia by H.E.S.)
All games were 100% official releases. I still have the Donkey kong and Pitfall cartridges.
Again, do some basic research before making a complete dickhead of yourself.
Can't afford a X16 How about using a Powkiddy RGB30 running Pico8 (a fantasy console) paired with a usb hub, keyboard and mouse, connect a usb power bank and it's basically a portable 8-bit computer that can also be plugged into a monitor/tv via HDMI.
Maybe Picotron (described as a fantasy workstation and the follow up to Pico8) in the future will be usable on a similar device/setup.
Pico8 works on Raspbery Pi's and similary Picotron has Pi support on the horizon.
There are many other devices out there that can do what the X16 can plus much more. The X16 is $350, I really don't see how he expects it to be successful at all.
I love the intro. All you are missing is a balding head.
‘like the library of Alexandria… after it burned down’
There's a Pitfall 2? I'm still trying to beat Pitfall :( (great video :D )
Oh yeah. Great game!
background music: The Last Ninja?
Pretty early on this project evolved away from what I would have loved it to be - a beefed up C64. Would have enjoyed built-in disk emulation, higher clock speed, more memory mapped ram and perhaps some extra graphics modes. But what made the C64 so much fun to program IMO was memory mapped I/O and video, as well as the (video triggered) interrupt system which the X16 soon left. Oh well, I applaud any project keeping the 8-bit vibe alive and not having to decide to buy one or not is good I guess…
Perhaps the Mega 65 is something, you would like?
@@AstroTechGuy Thanks, had a look at the ‘book’ (I’d say reference guide) in the downloads section and that’s quite a useful resource like the C64 one. I would have designed it more from C64 compatibility up, but that would have come at the cost of capabilities. The tradeoff they made by taking the C65 as starting point makes a lot of sense and it looks like a fine machine to tinker with if I had the time…
Mega65 seems more interesting to me as hardware as it can still run C64 and even some emulator software. It's also like 8x faster. It's a shame we've got incompatible systems. What got the C64 so much software was the sheer number of users. A hobbyist machine isn't going to do that. An Amiga 1200 has more capabilities overall.
I just don't get retro that isn't retro, but "new" OLD. I get nostalgia, but this seems more like nostalgia for programming in basic or assembly than for gamers that made up most of the C64 fan base. Nothing can compare to going to old school user groups in the 1980s as a 9 year old and coming home with 20 new games. That lead to an Amiga 500 and then an Amiga 3000 and eventually a PowerPC Mac and then Intel Macs (to heck on Bill Gates!). My issue now is both Apple and Microsoft are nothing but GREED MACHINES.
I'm more interested in an Amiga replacement with modern PC capabilities (the direction Apple should have gone with the Mac instead of ARM. it was just getting a decent amount of games around 2012-2015 when OpenGL updates just stopped and they went to Metal and then killed 32-bit in the OS which was 3/4 their games, all but killing easy PC ports! Then ARM came and Macs are more like 1990s Macs with almost no gaming software. Good Job Crapple! You've earned that title once more. Meanwhile Microsoft has gone full Spyware and ads in their OS. It's embarrassing. Better to get a Mac and PS5 I guess....
$500???? While I have spent over that for some verified working vintage systems (Commodores, Amiga's, Apple's, TRS's) this is not gonna happen for me.
But as they say "you do you, I do me"!
I want to build cartridges for it
You and me both
@@InkboxSoftware but why is it called x16, should it not be called x8 ????
@@ramakrishnamishra8179historical reasons. It was originally going to have a 16 bit processor, but sharing pins for both data and address (depending on clock cycle) made hardware difficult. By the time the decision was made to go with the 65c02, the name had stuck.
@@digitaljestin ok cool
@@digitaljestinNo, according to David himself, it was always going to be based around a 6502 chip. Just watch his first video on his "ideal computer" for confirmation.
Or should I say "infamous yamaha chip"
I do have some doubts on certain aspects on the hardware:
- 8kB mapping is too limited. I know people who write a graphical OS for say a CPC or MSX, but they need at least 32kB banks to make it workable
- the board should have RGB 15kHz out. I know Dave is from the US, and RGB TV's are more rare than pictures of a grey hair Trump, but you want the best out-of-the-box display experience, which is on an RGB CRT TV.
- the power section looks very weird, like a PC ATX connector with many unused pins. A machine like this should be designed 100% on 5V TTL, and with modern components 3A should be plenty, so please use a USB connector for a generic 3A USB phone charger.
Every time I've gone to buy one, it shows "Sold Out" without an option to pre-order.
It's because those idiots were hand-soldering them. They seem to hire some illegals to speed up the process though.
I despise the trend of social media pages and discord being used as stand-ins for competently designed websites.
Open source should also mean open development. Not behind some paywall or in a gated community.
They made a pitfall 2?? :D
Loooooong time ago. Atari 2600. Loved it. Still have it!
I think one reason to get this instead of an old computer is that it is made from newer and available parts. Of course you can repair a lot of old machines, too. But one benefit of the X16 it is designed to be available with standard parts off the shelf for years to come. The biggest plus IMHO is the decision to go with an easy to use Multi-Button-Pad. If you actually play a lot of the old Commodore, Atari and Amiga Games, having to use the keyboard AND the joystick at the same time in most games _is_ really annoying (most Atari-Style connected Pads/Sticks only address one or two buttons).
And while it uses the original Commodore/Microsoft Basic it was improved in many details and the hardware is much faster than any historical 8 bit system of the past.
I'm still not 100% sure if I will get one because anything I've tried so far with 6502 systems (C64, Atari 800, X16) beyond BASIC never seems to work ;)
Many of the parts in the X16 are no longer being produced. Lots of stock still available, but it's going to run out in several years. "Years to come" is technically true, but the phrase would normally be used in an indefinite sense.
I wanna play Montezuma's Revenge again.
Ive been following this on The 8-Bit guy's channel ever since he started it. While I was born past the days of 8 bit computers (1990) and didn't even learn what a computer was until I was like 4 or 5 years old Id like to get my hands on one of these in the future.
Bro thought we wouldnt notice the intro 💀🙏
that looks more powerful than 8-bit to me, seems more 16-bit
It's still just 8 bit, though all older computers had parts that ran higher than 8 bits out of necessity, or you'd have 256 byes of ram.
Kick Ar$e!
I'd love to get one, but I don't have the fund$... I Have Kiddos... Emulation it is.
But Definitely been following this since the beginning, Sweet HomeBrew Hardware
how much?
$350 USD and no that isn't a typo. If you really want the retro 80s experiance of programming in Basic you could just buy an 80s computer for cheaper. It would also have the benefit of having 1,000s of programs and games released for it.
@HerecomestheCalavera not too bad. Thanks
Pitfall 2. Played it on my C64 so often I probably run through it today if I omly could get mu hands on a working machine.
The Commander x16 isn't just for the old farts who want to relive the 80's, I'm sure there's lots of younger people like yourself (and maybe even myself once cheaper generations release) would be much into it as a sort of tinkering system. Especially if they can replicate a thing similar to what the Pi has. (A small and cheap form-factor.)
I like the "nostalgia-free" part. Apparently you can't enjoy this part of history if you are under 50 (or still have hair) in this community
Communities are two way streets. How you approach them has a lot to do with how they approach you. There will always be diehard fanatics or overly opinionated, extremely vocal people on any forum or community. The X16 won't be immune to that. Besides, being heavily "inspired" by old Commodore 8 bits, the X16 isn't "nostalgia-free". 😉
Me being 18 and buying an X16 lol
Nice computer.
But I dont buy it. 😐
I dont like the 6502... yeah they say it is faster then the z80.. but I can program the z80 with the much more advance instruktion set then the 6502. So i l tink the z80 is a beter cpu. (At lest i think so).
But still very nice computer you have.😊
Can I give a tip?
Give your in built Basic program language a upgrade.
Make it with local and global variables....
Your half way there. you made it to subroutine parts...
But you can go all they way and implement global and local variables.
Say no local variables
Just a gosub (to a subroutine)
Or a gosub with local variables..
Gosub "RoutineName" (variable 1, variable 2, variable 3... )
Return (valuta 1, valuta 2, valuta 3....)
Then the Basic can make recusive commands... that was a big disadvantage of Basic.
Sounds like you need a CPC. It is Z80, and with the available expansions, it can do really much. I got a CPC 464 with Ulifac (512kB+UART/WIFI/ETHERNET+6128 mode+USB drive) and a good RGB SCART cable, it is like 150 bucks in total, and it is awesome.
I still don't get the point of this over a real 80s machine, or a Raspberry Pi running Linux if you want something modern, but hey have fun!
If I want to program with restrictions I'd write for a $1 arm or riscv chip. riscv assembly is pretty elegant and I can run that in qemu. I will never understand why somebody would want to write basic or 6502 assembly both belong in the past.
I just run an ARM board in QEMU anyways. It's free and I don't risk bricking a device
People do these things because they enjoyed doing it in the past, or they wanted to do it, but for some reason, they never did. Personally, I don't see the attraction of the X16, but I do understand nostalgia or historical interest. The ARM architecture was literally developed and tested ON a 6502 based machine. Just two people at Acorn, using the BBC Micro (which they also developed, along with BBC Basic) to simulate their new ARM ISA. The first "Acorn Risc Machine" silicon was a development co-pro for that computer. Then it was used in their Archimedes computers and beyond, with their proprietary RiscOS. Which is now free, being updated, and runs natively on the Raspberry Pi and several other ARM machines. But the RPi itself was inspired directly by the BBC Micro used in British schools. History is what gave us the present.
@@another3997Is modern riscOS anything to write about to home?
While the background music may seem cool..after 2 minutes, you just want to exit the video.
As one of those who was on the BBS Scene in the 80's and 90's... except for using HTML boxes and proportional fonts instead of CP 437 Box Drawing characters (CP 437 0xB3 to 0xDA) and the monospacing of CP 437 standard fonts....
The forums really don't look much different than lazy BBS Sysops used in the 90's.
Honestly kinda disappointed that the development info is all on some Facebook group like Facebook is like the worst social media site pretty much ..