Do You Need to Back Butter Tiles?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- In this video, inventor/contractor Phil Green tests six different substrates to see if back-buttering tiles really makes a difference to the coverage on the back of the tile and in the long run, to the probability of a more permanent tile installation.
Disclaimer: This "test" is to see if a visual difference of thin set coverage can be noticeable between identical tiles being set on six different substrates. The only difference between the tiles is that one has been back-buttered and the other has not.
This is NOT all inclusive. real world installations are subject to deflections and stresses that may reflect a different result.
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Let me just clarify, COVERAGE IS key to BOND. The more FULL coverage achieved with your thinset WILL enhance the BOND of the tile to substrate. BB'ing your tile will IMPROVE the BOND , BUT is NOT a replacement for COVERAGE....... That is as clear as I can get.
EdgeStripKits why did you skip the bb tile over the membrane? I'm going over concrete using mapeguard 2 as my underlayment.
I'm new at this and looking for any information. Here's my project.
I'm laying 490 sq ft of 18×18 at a 45. My base is concrete slab. I have ground down my high points and used self level on the valley's.
My floors were obviously made by the lowest bidder. Lol
So, I got them level. The tile I'm using is porcelain and with a half inch trowel to set them. Does this sound correct? Any information is appreciated it. 👍
I didn't skip BB'ing one tile for each substrate? Ditra had a non-modified thin set that was grey. Is that what you are thinking? I can't give you specific advice on your project without know ALL the factors.
EdgeStripKits Thanks for the reply. Your right you did BB all tiles. My bad. I'm having a some problems with my thin set. I bb the tile lay it, but if it doesn't fall exactly perfect. My thin set is like rubber. I push the tile into the correct spot but my thin set pulls it back. What is going on?
@@maces1405
The rubbery effect is probably due to suction underneath the tile. But keep in mind that I do not know much about tiling, that is why I am watching videos on TH-cam.
Can you get a little clearer?
Interesting comments to your video. Love the one that says BB takes too long costing $$. Don't hire that guy. Floor tile should always be BB. Walls depends on size of tile. Also the quality of the thin set. The demo was great experiment. For non-believers of BB do this. Try both methods, Immediately after laying a tile try to lift it up. You will find the BB tile creates a "suction" type adhesion making it difficult to raise tile. I not only BB tile I use notch side. Creates a interlocking basket weave effect when both notched sides meet. My mentor has been tiling for 56 years. I've had to remove his work 30 yrs plus later and always proves to be extremely difficult. I've removed tile from cookie cutter homes and I could use a butter knife to remove tiles. There is a difference and why wouldn't you "overkill" to ensure a quality job. It comes down to the installer. Are you a mass production installer or a quality conscience installer? I always BB, takes 1% more time and never had a call back. Why fix it when it's not broke.
Back buttered tile will always "appear" to have no voids when the tile is removed. This is no substitute for a proper spread of thinset, but only an added assurance. There can still be a void between the back butter and the thinset if the thinset is not spread properly.
You shouldnt be back buttering every piece of tile . Your trowel is metal, it scratches the cement which helps the thinset stick to floor.
Thank you for the video. I am about to tile my kitchen for the first time. From the many videos I watched so far I realized that total beginner like myself should better stick with maximum 12"x12" tiles and use anti lippage tiling systems. Back-buttering is going to be third tip for a total novice like me.
That is conclusive. Thanks for taking the time to do this test. I can't understand why people don't back butter. If their price is so tight they have to skimp they should try and sell quality.
Skill Builder the reason they dont do it is because they get paid shit (basically its cheap). so why install quality when your getting paid shit???
And that is the point where a good tradesman walks away. We are out own worst enemies in allowing customers to drive down quality.
So true. As a professional, I explain to the customer the correct way a job should be done and then give him/her my price. Often times, they cheapout. Too bad, at least I don't have the followup headaches. Not only do customers drive down quality by hiring hacks, these hacks give us pros a bad name.
I am having problems finding quality in my country, I'm willing to pay two or three times as much just get some quality. but then you see that people who charge twice as much still do a shit job :(.
Basically It's really hard to estimate a tradesman before hiring and price should never drive quality down imo.
JDoe
Not entitled to a good price.???? Sure we are....You as a client, arent entitled to a great job at a fair price fool.
A truly scientific approach to the problem! Thank you, sir, for showing it so clearly!
Every installer and homeowner should see this. Thank you for posting it. I paid extra for ditre and was wondering how it would fare.
The main reason that the back buttered tiles were a stronger bond was absorption. If you sprayed water on the back of the other tiles 10 minutes before laying, the bond would be just as strong. When you have a porous surface the bond is never as good as the surface sucks the moisture from the adhesive and weakens the bond. Its the same for painting walls and woodwork, or plastering in which you would PVA the walls first to minimise suction.
+niptodstan I beg to differ. The biggest reason for the voids is because nothing is ever 100% flat or straight. (Both the tile and substrate) The reason why back buttering helps is to fill those minor voids sometimes 1/16 or 1/8 or more thick. wetting tiles is not the way to go. So many reasons why it would be a bad idea to wet tiles prior to install. A few reasons: 1. Thinset would not be set as per the mftr. 2. sagging. Especially on walls. 3. Leaks if you wet it too much. and so on. Same theory applies to carpenters when they glue many joints or biscuits they don't just apply glue to one side. and God forbid they use water to help absorption :)
You are not begging to differ. You are arguing a completely different point than +niptodstan is making. You both have valid points, and both point to BB rather than not.
Muhsin Kermalli but the real question is, does one little void matter?
Actually niptodstan has a point. In gluing together joints that pull a lot of moisture in woodworking, ie miter joints, it is common to mix up a little glue and water and let it soak into the joint and dry, then apply glue and assemble the joint. This way the glue doesn't get all pulled into the end grain fibers of the joint. Maybe using water to set tile is not a great idea, but it can help with wood. Also, efficient woodworkers apply glue to one side of the joint, like an edge joint. If theres squeeze out, its surely coating the whole joint.
Finally someone that got it right. This of course goes only for Ceramic tiles. Porcelain Granite marble and similar non porous materials just need to be wiped with dam cloth to remove dust. As with any glue clean surface make for perfect bond.
This video accomplished one thing definitively. Nobody will be silly enough to put thinset on bare plywood. I think Phil sneezed with a prybar in hand and the tiles on the plywood got scared, ran away.
I am replacing 12" x 12" tiles that did not adhere well to concrete floor when originally installed, just a few here and there. This demo was very valuable to me, and I've seen many that werent. Thanks.
Great experiment, clear results. Thanks for putting this demonstration together!
Iv been tiling 11 years, I thought this was a great video thank you
Best video on floor tile installation ive seen. Covers all types of underlayment with a consistent technique that is per manufacturers guidelines with the exception of back buttering. It appears HardiBacker is the best underlayment but i put down Durock
Thanks
Nice video, Phil! You can see the difference between backbuttering and not in every example.
You’re the GOAT for this video. Appreciate the time that went into this lesson!
Some of the voids on the non back buttered tiles where simply because there wasn't enough thin set on the substrate. (Since this was a demo you can see that most of the corners have this issue.)Back buttering is not necessary on smaller tiles if you apply enough thin set and set them correctly.
On larger tiles, back buttering is very important because sometimes the tiles are so big they tend to have a bend or curve on them. You can actually test this by placing the tile upside down and see if it spins.....because the center will be slightly bulged out. You need to back butter large tiles so that you fill that potential void the curving of the tile will make.
Maybe spreading the thinset evenly on the substrates would’ve given a better result. Watch the video closely when he spreads it with our back butter.
I did a porcelain floor on plywood with BB in a very high traffic kitchen. Two tiles have cracked in ten years between the sink and stove standing area. One cracked when an entire pot of water fell on it. The other (tile next to first one that cracked) cracked under normal conditions a couple of months later. Everything else very solid, but I agree with this video that BB is important, but I also learned about the importance of good backer board. Thanks for making this video.
Excellent video, there are so many knuckleheads not BB, and never will, as seen by the comments below. But BB is certainly required on travertine, and large tiles and then tapping on the tile with a mallet.
Twenty years ago I tiled about 1200 sq feet of my house. I did not back-butter anything. Not one tile ever came loose. Now I am re-tilling the same floor. I noticed great differences in difficulty removing the tile. Some places the thinset stayed on the tile and some places it stayed on the concrete floor. They were all set by me with the same method. The only thing I can guess for the differences is maybe the thinset was dryer is some areas. However I am confident they would all have lasted another 100 years without coming loose.
I have since learned about back-buttering and am doing it this time. The tiles seem to set easier as I have more material to work with but after watching this video and my experience, I don't think it matters that much for longevity.
Thanks for the video Phil Green-Edge Strip Kits .
Great video! I just got done tiling a bathroom floor using the Ditre Schluder membrane & just after 24 hours of letting the thinset dry it already feels very strong. Great video of comparisons
Of course the backbuttered tiles didn't show any voids because they had been coated with thinset. It doesn't mean it didn't have voids, they just couldn't be seen as easily.
Yep I thought that!
I did a test like this and tiles without the back butter almost always fail.
Almost always
@@RubbinRobbin My theory is that even though the back butter does not increase coverage, and there may be small voids that same as a dry tile, the fact that the thinset is keyed and bonded to the tile, and then that thinset is bonded to the mud on the floor, it increases the transfer and bond strength. If you ever tore up a crappy tile job you can see that sometimes the ridges never really "stuck" to the tile, when you pull the tile up there is no mud on the back, its all stuck to the floor. Backbuttering makes sure the thinset sticks and is fully keyed into the tile. If that makes sense.
For crying out loud. Don't let the mud tack over. Be aware of air and temperature conditions and forget the back butter on any tile less than 14x 14. I will say that if you are a DIY then it's fine to do it as you may not know product limitations and proper trowel techniques and sizes but make sure to keep a sponge handy cuz you about to get messy. Lol P.S. stop pointing out voids due to no mud being underneath tile in the first place.
For Heavy duty commercial installations, yes it's a good idea or wall installations. But for residential installs it's an unnecessary overkill based on 45 years in the flooring industry. Plus tearing out a Back buttered floor tile over concrete is a nightmare, labor wise.
Cant agrr
@Der Traubengott I agree.
Yea try breaking out a single tile to replace it it’s a nightmare I wet the back of a tile with a sponge to clean it and it sticks better
I am a pretty good handyman but, as I don't tile but once in awhile, I make it a practice to back butter. Just one more thing that could help compensate for my lack of experience.
Same. Tiled a bathroom yesterday. Backbuttered and checked. Had 100% coverage
The coverage was surprisingly more than I’ve seen demoing most non back skimmed tile.
Yup. Got my answer. If you arent using tile mortar. You better BB because voids are near impossible to avoid. Broken and loose tile is what i got from using a all purpuse cement. Although the manufacterer claimed was ok for tile. It wasnt. I did BB the tiles i replaced and it held for all but one. Used tile mortar and BB that and it held.
I did this job on a near zero budget and the broken tile cost was greater than the savings in mortar. Inexpensive tile with proper mortar is not an issue. Not to BB is. Thanks Mr.Green.
This is my sicology Since the first day I used to back butter my tiles no one told me to do that. I did it on my own wil so the tile can bond as hard as possible and today I am greatly confirmed that back buttering is essential. Forever people said you dont want back buttering and that was true but with back buttering the tile wont come off or crack Thanks alot for confirming me
For the highest bonding possible back butter always and I am proud that whatever tile I installed I back buttered it Thank You Alot Phil Green
Great vid. I back buttered a wall that used false interlocking stone and I got such a tight bond that it ripped the first layer of paper off the drywall when I needed to remove it when I noticed a chipped stone. I spent too much time on it though. Because I notched the back buttered side too... live and learn.
Great vid! I guess this simply ends the discussion showing that back-buttering should always be used.
Obviously buttering the tile makes a stronger bond, but it is not necessary as an unbuttered tile would last as long as necessary , even outlive he whole house! One can make a stronger car and stronger foundations for any car, house, ship and plane, but it is just not necessary to over-engineer some issues in life,
dude you tile it once and tile it for the life of the home voids in thin set will only cause problems for you and the home owner any weight over a tile that doesn't have 100% coverage will break no matter how coverage is achieved 100% coverage is an important part of the process of quality
so -- what's up with the Ditre then?
Charles Carpenter voids dont cause problems you know that rite. And do you have any experience in that field because I'm pretty sure that you don't.
Carmel Pule' You are wrong. Please don't do any tiling unless it is for yourself, that way when your shit breaks, nobody will be mad except you. Fucking moron...
Carmel Pule' what is the life of a house? We just removed 120 year old tiles at a friends house in germany. Due to a intelligent layout, it was possible to replace all piping during that period at least once without removing the tiles. Sure you have to do a good job to make tiles last that long!
In watching other Detra tutorials, applying tiles in a two step process. First a layer of unmodified thin set is applied to fill all the waffles, allowed to dry for 24 hours, then tile is laid. Perhaps if you had gone that route, it would have made a difference. Thanks for this demonstration. Very useful indeed.
Those tutorials are not done by Schluter. Schluter does not recommend applying the mortar in a two step process. They recommend doing it all in one shot.
@@luptonpittman6520was going to say the same thing. Most installers using membrane or kerdi board do a thin layer pressed hard into the substrate (similar to wetting concrete board), then the thicker notched layer right over that.
You do not need to back butter if you install it right. 1st You have to use the right size trowel. It's the method of how you did it. You have to smash the BB piece because you have a lot of thinset while you basically sat the non BB piece. That's the key to a good bond. Use enough thinset with the correct trowel, put tile in place then use a mallet and beat it down to height, or smoosh it down. You will have the same bond as BB. Also the consistency of your thinset is important
Keith Linihan best answer so far... trowel size is important....
SNOOOZE
Thank you.
Lazy! Back buttering is recommended by the tile manufacturer for large format tiles. Sure, attack your tile with mallets and bear down on them! Nuts! Tile is placed, not pile driven!
Wallace Grommet I've been in the trade for 26 years and never had any complaints of tiles lifting by not back buttering. If I start back buttering now my prices will go up as it takes more time, then I'll be out of work.
simple question, where the air go(the air stuck in squares when you not back butter) ?
Thank you for taking the time and back butter the tiles
I invented the tool called "The Back Butter Buddy" so of course I will BB the tile...lol www.backbutterbuddy.com
This also helps prevent tiles from coming loose years later of being walked on or having stuff moved across it. :)
This is a great video
I always back butter tile when installing on floor or walls
It's the way to go
Ye man i did the same way too, and I never have a problem
Yes Mr Green, Since the tiles are not perfectly flat, isn't it possible that a skim coat is not enough to prevent voids, and that the skim coat may only make it appear that the thin-set touched the tile and a void may still be there? I sometimes use a different size notch trowel on the tile. It would be good to see a video on problems when doing a patch job as when some tiles pop up or the bonding fails and the client wants to replace only the spot that pops up. Because it can be difficult to level new tiles to old ties.
Brilliant experiment. Could you please show one where you go over existing ceramic tiles, I would love to see what happens as I am doing a tile over tile installation. Thank You.
I do all my own tiling and always back butter. Many contractors won't bother and for the most part the tiles will probably last a good while anyway. But in areas of high traffic they will mess up sooner.
The time you're pleased a contractor skimped is when you're removing tiles.
I am a floor installer and I see lots of different opinions in the comments. Based on my experience back buttering helps give you a stronger bond, helps reduce the possibility of hollow spots in the tile, and makes the tile more durable against cracking if something is accidentally dropped on the tile.
And FYI, The back butter buddy tool has made my job easier.
30 yrs of tiling.proper trowel size,quality mortar and back butter!I have tore up tile floors with no back butter and they pop up.
I'm not a pro but have done a fair amount of large format tile DIY with success. I use the T-Lock leveling system and then walk on the freshly installed tiles. This ensures 100% coverage and saved loads of time and mess. You can see for yourself by putting a sheet of plexiglass (not buttered) on a section of floor combed with thinset. Walk on it, and you'll see the air bubbles collapse, achieving 100% coverage. For vertically placed tiles I can't provide that level of evenly distributed pressure. So I back butter and then tap with a rubber hammer.
What a big help for a novice like me. Great presentation. Very thorough, precise and concise. Now we know which comes first: chicken or eggs? LOL
Well done demonstration. Would be interested to see the difference between a week of curing vs 28 days also.
Which thinset did you use in the test?
Phil, great video. One quick question. From your results would you take away that on a ditra install back buttering is not necessary like it is with the other installs. And that tile --> plywood is a no go ever!
Thanks!
ironlungs33 great question.
Great vid. Just for clarity. Is it worth buttering the back of the tiles applied to detra Mat, as your video showed them both coming off in a similar fashion
The biggest thing here not mentioned and not showed in the video is when applying thinset that sets for longer than a few seconds or even a minute skims over slightly when that occurs the tile is going to have even less adhesion than in your video. From my experience thinset will always stick to thinset. If there's dust or a skim over of your thinset the results will be far more drastic then you have in your video. I recently had an old-timer tell me back buttering is useless and I would be far more faster if I didn't do so. I challenged him to take one of my tiles off versus one of his. and mine required an SDS hammer drill with a chisel bit, his just a hammer and pry off easily. The scary part is the DraStic difference in your two tile that you are able to set quickly without any dry time or dust. Quick isn't always better but I'm still faster than most.
Thank you for the confirmation about back buttering tile. I’ve always back buttered the tiles but always wondered if it was necessary, being a novice tile setter. Now I’ve discovered that I’ve been doing the process wrong. I’ve been using the notched side of the trowel and creating another set of mortar grooves on the tile. Tho this might produce a much tighter bond, I’m sure it was totally unnecessary considering I’ve been using small tiles.
This is a fantastic video that provides a much-needed definitive answer to a difficult question for all new tile professionals and DIYers. Thank you!
I'm not saying back buttering is a bad idea, however this video is kind of misleading.
1st- on some of the non back buttered tiles (ex Hardie backer) you point to a void on the end of the tile where clearly the problem was just that the installer didn't apply enough thin set on the end of the board for the demonstration. I call that operator error.
2nd- more coverage with back buttering does make it more difficult to remove, but where is a proof that it is a bad thing? so what if its easier to pry up, that doesn't mean a tile will fail or crack.
dskater411 im so glad i am not the only one who noticed that!! He clearly is in favor of backbuttering, which is a good idea, but one can clearly see he did not motar properly on the non- buttered tile!!
I agree with you. What videos like this don't show is whether voids between the layers of mortar (ie. between that applied to the floor and that applied to the back of the tile) can be created, which would be just as detrimental as voids between a bare tile and the mortar on the floor). Perhaps ensuring a level BB layer is more important so as to not create more gaps that way. Of course, voids are bad either way...means the tile will break more easily if something is dropped, etc. in that spot.
This is a really informative video with examples done with large glass tiles; neat to see! (1:45 on): th-cam.com/video/Way5bMh-eYg/w-d-xo.html&t=
Some of the voids he speaks of the thinset is still on the surface. Is it an actual void?
dskater411
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Dskater411... although I do back butter my tile and addvocate it as a good method, I still don't think it is absolutely necessary to do, you won't be trying to pry off tile and none of those tile would fall off the wall, in other words there would not be a failure just because there wasn't 90% or 100% coverage of thin-set. The sky is falling mentality runs deep in this industry.
Sure, this video has it's common sense flaws but the main point I saw was that you're not going to see these tiles lifting which I've been seeing a whole lot (in the house I just bought and with some work my mom had done) Back butter seems to eliminate that problem. Not applying BB seems like a smart move for professionals trying to complete multiple jobs fast because of time/budget constraints or DIY temporary fixes due to future renovations. Great video.
One technique I stumbled on for detecting the voids is to roll a steel ball, about half an inch diameter, across the tile. The sound changes abruptly, and it becomes obvious where the hollow spaces are. Too late, though, but interesting.
depend on lots of circumstances but is a must do if the weather is hot or if you are using cheap thin set
I'm glad I watched this video. Great demonstration.
Thank You! That is a great tip that all installers should apply : )
Great and professional video. Really helpful. I'm about to start a large tiling volunteering project with no tiling experience and your video is much needed. Thanks.
Awesome video. Made it very clear and demonstrated what I wondered about. Thank you again. Very helpful.
I get that tiles should be laid properly especially for floor tiles but on wall tiles I often wonder if they’re laid too well. They tend to get replaced every 15-20 years so as long as they hold but then come off with relative ease I’d say that’s the best amount of adhesion. What that is I don’t know though.
Marlon Brando did some back buttering in "Last Tango in Paris"
I call bullshit. We did 900+ SF of 6x36" plank tile at a Buffalo Wild Wings, didn't BB a single tile. Each and every day, after setting a section of tile in an area that was open to setting, the electricians would drive their scissor lift on our 12-18 hr/ old tile work. We didn't have a single cracked or hollow tile. Proper trowel size along with quality thinset, made to the correct/ consistency are far more important than BB. The other crew doing the other 900 SF, had failures of 120' the 1st section they laid, and 150' the 2nd, it wasn't until day 3 that they copied our technique.
+c Dittmer where floor is uneven you have comb floor and tile dont ya ,?
+c Dittmer how do you level big massive floors like that at all ??
+c Dittmer what happens then if there is a high hump on floor ,would you have to jackhammer it out ?
@c Dittmer dang bro bet you made some good money out of them since self leveling is high plus lavor
Proper trowel size is the main thing in my eyes and make sure you make the grout loose enuff to fill those edges where the voids are on the edges, the trowel depth was not sufficient enuff for those tile in my eyes
So back buttering makes it harder to remove , unless your banging on your tile back buttering is not necessary
There seems to be some confusion about ditra in the video and comments. The cured mortar should come up with the tile. That’s the point of ditra. It’s a decoupling membrane. The tile basically floats on top on the membrane. This means that when your substrate expands and contracts, the tile doesn’t feel the forces pulling in each direction which would cause it to crack or pop
HI Rick,
To make back buttering easy, safe and quick I use the "Back Butter Buddy"
I used it in the video. This makes quick work of back buttering tiles and you will make money doing it.
That's all that is.... Visual voids. Your still getting voids if you back butter just can't really tell because the whole tile had been covered.
I agree with you, but I do think back buttering fills in the cavities on the back side of the tile, making it stronger and more durable.
Nice video. Question, since you were there removing the tile in your opinion what was the best substrate used in this test?
Which substrate would you recommend for a bathroom after testing? I'm looking at Ditra, Noble and Wedi for a small bathroom curbless shower remodel. Thanks for the video.
Why don't you run a wet sponge over the tile before you back butter? I find a even better bond to the tile when it's moist. Thoughts?
Trowel size plays a major part in wat kind of coverage you get along with back buttering
Good demonstration but for people trying to say it’s either a necessity or not it’s very simple. TCNA book states all that’s necessary is a at least 80% coverage and a floor that’s level. Something like not over 1/4” over 8’ if I remember correctly. All you need other than that is a good size trough and to make sure your ridges collapse without air pockets. On large format tiles though this can make a difference in not coming back to pop and relay hollow tiles. Very easy to get that coverage without hollow tiles without bb them
I usually thickly back butter the tile and press them on without applying mastic to the substrate for wall jobs. If I need to cut the job short, it's easier to clean and start again later. Thoughts?
This was an excellent demonstration. I don't understand how all the haters in the comments argue with success. Obviously there are a lot of incompetent installers out there. It's nice to see some one take the time to do it correctly.
my observation is that the Ditra doesn't seem to be meshed... maybe I am wrong, but in UK I use Durabase matting which has a fibre mesh over the top which would prevent pulling the material back out with the tile. I have actually repaired one of my own cracked tiles on Durabase through a pan being dropped and because of this method, it is extremely difficult to get the tile out and cleaned up!
Back-buttering is a waste of time and money!
This type of tiling is only relative in high traffic areas. The non buttered way is suitable for domestic use. Did you prime the relative boards first?
"Domestic use" What the hell does that even mean? Just shut up...
The trowel was being held at a very flat angle not giving the application called for. On some larger tile that are domed in the center, then back buttering will flatten the bottom of the tile if you float across it, but otherwise, if you use the proper notch as you are supposed to, you’ll have full coverage. Think about it a bit. And if you back butter unevenly, you’ll have a hell of a time leveling the tiles.
I tiled my bathroom and my kitchen, the bathroom tiles I back buttered as they were reasonably big tiles in my kitchen the tiles were quite small so I didn't back butter them, neither show any signs of moving and that's ten years on. This is a bit like gluing a pocket hole joint, do you need to do it ? No , Will gluing make the joint stronger ? Yes
Make sure you start by keying in and starting with the oldest lumpiest mortar you can find left in your garage. LMFAO
great demonstration ... butter up those tiles - did the Ditra came off a little too easily ?
If you're getting voids, sans BB, doesn't that just mean you didn't apply enough thinset to the substrate, or provide enough pressure when setting the tile?
I just bought a house and am planning to remove the tile job the previous owners laid in the kitchen. I'm praying to God they didn't back butter those tiles.
I have my kitchen and living room tiled and I had the same tile in a tiny bathroom. I don't know what the guy used to stick down the tile but it didn't appear to be thinset. It took me hours of HARD LABOR to chisel off a few square feet of tile. It splintered off - no pieces more than a few square inches. I would have to bring in heavy machinery and basically ruin my concrete floor and have to resurface about 600 sq ft in order to remove the tile ( I put laminate over it ).
Hi don't worry man we are here to help you am a tile seter from Morgan hill California
My opinion is that some of those should/could be categorized as adequate &/or overkill. I think BB depends on the usage of the piece to if it is warranted. Because it's not always needed. Just my opinion.
Agree, test is irrelevant to typical floor.
Love this kind of stuff. Great job testing difference serfaces.
You should use modified thinset with plywood...
Thanks for the test, really instructive!
forest gump not thrue men tile stick well on plywood
So this a demo on the difficulty of getting a tile off as both will be fine . Back buttered or not
There will be voids because you didn’t batter the tile first same as contact additives?
I’d like to see the test against tiles that are wetted
A great way to charge more for a Tile repiar.
If you are going to buck batter your tiles, only do a SKIM COAT. I've seen where people actually do an 1/8" notch on both the tile and substrate. Too much thinset on the tile is as much a problem as too little, You'll have problems with lipping, floating, sagging (on walls) and huge problems with your material getting in the grout lines. Also becomes messy so make sure you clean up the tile and the grout lines very carefully before grouting as not to get the material mixed up in the grout.
It seems I should heed your test results and back-butter my tiles as I am about to lay them on a self leveller that is poured over a electric floor heating cable. Ideally, a 100% glue contact should be achieved for best heat transfer from the self leveller to the tile. Any further suggestion you may have?
Another thing you can see on your back buttered tiles the notching for the trowel adhesive is not visible but you are saying there's better adhesion ?. If it had better adhesion your tile would shatter into smaller segments not allowing an inspection on the back of the tile am i correct ?.
You don't need to back butter any tiles down, I've been setting tiles for 33 years, and never had a issue. I always use modified thin-set, Make sure the area is cleaned when installing the tile, As long as the thin-set at the right consistently, but never on the dry side. move your tile a little as you put it down, it'll bond perfectly, But you need to use a large trowel, when installing a 16 x 16, 18 x 18, 24 x 24 +I use a 3/4" trowel or bigger. ( you can always cut one out from a old trowel) Don't get cheap on your thin-set. The only issue is when you install large format tiles you may have to pull it up to either add or remove the thin-set due to the floor being uneven, unless you skim coat your valley's or screed your floor level. I have known tile setters on the cheap side, setting tile by back buttering with modified thin-set and troweling unmodified thin-set on the floor to save money, it works..... but you lose time when setting. The only time I back butter is when I'm installing a mud floor. porcelain or marble. I've even set tile in several garages over the years and never had a issue from having vehicles park or driving on the surface back and forth. Everyone one has their own little methods to set tile. If I find a better system... I'll incorporate and use it myself.. Thanks for the video! Randy Jimenez www.frontierofpalmbeach.com
I've always regarded the bed of thinset as a way to embed tiles into a self levelling surface that will allow the tile to ignore imperfections in the subfloor below it and prevent tile cracks after cured. The tenacity of the adhesion is irrelevant whether you butter or not. You'll get adequate adhesion in either case. The only time I would pay particular attention to adhesion would be tiling of a ceiling, or archways, etc.
I had to remove tiles that I put in our bathroom 20 years ago. I did not use back-butter (did not know about it) and all the tiles came out in pieces and it took me hours to remove all of them. I guess, I will skip back-buttering in the future too.
Have you tested back buttered and just dropped into place vs BB and pushed forward and back?
Technically, you would ALWAYS have full coverage (no voids) on the tiles that have been backbuttered. That's not a fair comparison. A more effective test to show the difference is the "tap" test, where you tap the tile with a hard object and listen for hollow areas. Another more invasive test is to tap it hard with a hammer to see if the tile cracks. (BTW: You should register on Upwork or Fivver as a voice over talent! Your type of voice is crisp, clear, and soothing to listen to. I would definitely hire you to narrate some of my mini commercials.)
I was wondering that ! What he calls a void might just be where the glue stuck to the bottom instead of the tile
Why iying? Some of tehe voids were due to not applying thinset to the whole substrat firts.
It makes sense that a BB tile will have a stronger adhesion to the surface. However, is that really required? An analogy would be to glue and screw drywall to the stud or just screw it to the stud. Both will work, barring any significant house settling. So, are tiles going to perform to the requirements of the traffic, whether they are BB or not? If the adhesion force of a non BB'd tile is X and the performance requirement is X/2, then what is the point of BB'ing?
Your claiming there were voids in the thinset but the reason was when you pulled the tile some of the thinset stuck to the substrate on the ones that weren't BB. Any of these applications would work just fine for residential use. It also depends on the quality of the thinset.
Jim, exactly. The thin set stuck to the substrate but not the tile in some areas. This would create a weak spot in the assembly. Back Buttering tile ( All sizes 12x12 and larger ) would benefit from doing it. It's just added insurance.
my contractor doesn't back butter for 6 inch by 12 inch tiles. he used a half inch trowel. I asked him to pull up a few tiles and they all had 99-100% coverage. he says most guys use too small a trowel size which causes voids underneath. is this true?
Yes voids are created when you pick wrong trowel. Back buttering is BS simply put.
I'm always on the fence about BB'ing. Here is what I will say.... 15 years ago I tiled my lanai with 18" square tile. I didn't BB, I didn't comb the thinset straight (I curled it), I didn't key in the thinset on the concrete and I had voids I could hear in a few places. So I pretty much did everything wrong when setting the tile. With this being said, over the course of 15 years I didn't have a single crack and our lanai is used a lot for entertainment and where we hang when out of the pool. It has seen thousands of steps and it still looks like it did the day I installed it.
I'm in the process of chiseling it out to replace it with new tile and have spent two days with a rotary hammer and it is taking forever to come up.
Bottom line..... I did everything incorrectly when installing it, but it has held fine for 15 years and is a bear to take out. I feel like BB is unnecessary, unless you are working with a really warped tile or very long tile.
Thank you for the extremely well done and scientific analysis of back buttering. The format of the video is excellent.
I am about to install 6" x 24" porcelain tiles over Progress Profiles Prodeso Heat membrane, which is just like Ditra Heat. In this case, do you recommend back buttering or not? There didn't appear to be much difference between your two test tiles over the Ditra substrate.
Always better to trowel the floor and pick up tiles as needed to add more thinset . Back buttering is only good for cuts. Your trowel scratches the floor which helps your thinset bond to floor. Plus if you do a lot of tile like here in AZ would you want your installers spreading one tile at a time ?
Thanks Jim. I really did try to be unbiased in this video. The results are clear
and simple - by back buttering tiles you are creating a more secure bond of the tile to the substrate. That is of course the goal. A little self-promotion, I use the tool I invented to accomplish this - The Back Butter Buddy! - A Google or you tube search will show the tool in action.
How can you prove this when you can't see the adhesion notches from your trowel to show your voids. You obviously still have voids it's just a lot harder to inspect. Other wise your BB tile would of not lifted in larger segments. Great adhesion when tiles are lifted are displayed by the shattering into small segments. IE if you are jack hammering you can distinguish the difference due to the effort to remove the tile.