*note for beginners in the language, don't read this so you don't get confused* 0:25 well I might comment on this, the pronunciation is Greco-Bohairic and not dialect, there's difference between pronunciation and dialect, the dialect is simply Bohairic, and pronunciation of the church is Greco Bohairic. 0:55 ⲋ̅ is not a Greek character, it's also from demotic. 1:35 I disagree for Ⲃⲃ to be pronounced as 'V', according to the huge liturgical manuscripts which included the Arabic pronunciation for the letter Ⲃⲃ, the most simple one is the name of watos chants, it's from Ⲃⲁⲧⲟⲥ in the manuscripts that we have spell it in Arabic 'واطوس'. 5:57 not only Greek loan words that pronounce it as 'D' but also Coptic in almost all times, for example we recoded an exchange between letter ⲇ and ⲧ/ϯ for example in some Sahidic manuscripts it pronounced the Greek word Ⲇⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ into Ⲧⲉⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ or ϯⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ, even in some places in Egypt that their names goes back to Coptic names of places like دندرة Ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲱⲣⲉ, رشيد ⲣⲁϣⲓⲧ, or دمنهور ϯⲙⲉⲛϩⲱⲣ
Hello, thank you for your insightful comment. I would just like to add a couple of clarifications. 0:25 the reason I refer to it as a dialect is to clarify that Greco-Bohairic and Old-Bohairic are not even close to being the same thing. The pronunciations vary greatly not just with regards to letters, but also with regards to syllable structure. But you are right, they are not separate dialects since they preserve the same grammar and vocab of Bohairic. There isn't a good way to describe the difference between them, however; maybe accents? 0:55 to the extent of my knowledge, and correct me if I am wrong, ⲋ̅ is a form of the Greek ligature stigma, serving the same function; that is being the numeral 6. If you have more information about its delineation from a demotic rather than greek origin, please let me know. 1:35 this series is focusing on Greco-Bohairic pronunciation, and follows the rules set out specifically for that accent/dialect/pronunciation method; what ever we want to call it! 😅 While the Church has preserved the /w/ pronunciation in some popular words such as Ⲃⲁⲧⲟⲥ and Ⲃⲏⲥⲁ, these words are exceptions and not the rule. The Greco-Bohairic rule is for Ⲃ to be pronounced as a /β/ or /v/ when followed by a vowel. 5:57 while the letters ⲧ and ϯ were commonly pronounced as /d/ in Old-Bohairic. This is not the case in Greco-Bohairic. The purpose of these videos is not to argue the validity of one form of the language vs the other, but rather to teach and practice reading according to the rules laid out by the Church for Greco-Bohairic.
I have some questions: 2:32 "Ⲁⲃⲃⲁ" and 8:40 "Ⲥⲁⲃⲃⲁⲧⲟⲛ" has double BB's so when they are followed by a vowel they are pronounced as a "B" instead of a "V" right? Is there any exception to the rule so it is pronounced as /b.v/ or a stop in between both similar sounds like /b.b/ or /v.v/? 2:48 "Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ" sounds exactly the same as 2:43 "Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ", for example I can hear the double "N" in 2:53 "Ⲙⲁⲛⲛⲁ". Is this an error or an actual exception? 7:18 Is the final "B" in "Ⲛⲉⲧⲃ" pronounced strongly or as soft/imperceptible as heard in the example? 8:21 Is the "ⲓ" in "Ⲇⲁⲛⲍⲉⲓⲛ" not pronounced as an exception or an error?
Hello @m4rloncha, thank you for watching the video! Before I answer your questions, I would like to clarify that I am not a linguist, just a Coptic enthusiast. I also don’t speak Coptic fluently, my first language is Egyptian Arabic, followed closely by American English; these two languages and their accents tend to influence my pronunciations. If anyone else is actually a linguist or has a better grasp of Coptic, I would like to hear their answers as well. Thank you! With this in mind, I will try to give you answers to the best of my abilities. First, concerning 2:32 "Ⲁⲃⲃⲁ" and 8:40 "Ⲥⲁⲃⲃⲁⲧⲟⲛ;" these are both Aramaic/Hebrew loan words into Coptic, and thus, they have preserved their characteristic pronunciation. To the extent of my knowledge the “ⲃⲃ” does not appear in the Coptic Vocab except to emulate the /b/ sound of the Aramic letter Bēth. Two other things to note on this front: 1. Coptic never underwent a formal process of spelling standardization. 2. The Greco-Bohairic pronunciation is the product of an early modern attempt at reconciling Coptic pronunciation with that of Modern Greek. As a result, many nouns, common words, and phrases which were too widely used to be changed have retained the older Bohairic pronunciation. Second, 2:43 "Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ" and 2:48 "Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ." They sound different to me, but maybe my vocalization is not clear enough! Anyhow, If we were to use IPA transliteration Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ should be pronounced as /ɑmnɑ/ and Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ should be pronounced as /ɑnnɑ/. Third, 7:18 "Ⲛⲉⲧⲃ." Generally speaking Coptic doesn’t have any silent letters. I may not have vocalized it properly. The final ⲃ should always be pronounced as a regular /b/. Fourth, 8:21 "Ⲇⲁⲛⲍⲉⲓⲛ." Both ⲉ and ⲓ are pronounced. Note that ⲉ on its own is pronounced as /e̞/ and ⲓ is pronounced as /i/. When placed together they should produce a diphthong similar to the ai in the english word Rain. Thank you again for watching the video and for your comment!
@@AsItWas00 Hello again! Wow, I saw something about a reform but I thought it was a spelling reform like any other language! Pronounciation reforms mostly fail because people simply don't accept the new change and still keep speaking the way they do on their home. But I can understand that at the time the reform appeared barely anyone outside religious situations spoke it so it makes a little bit more sense why some words could easily be written more phonetically but they decide not to. By the way, I know you're not a linguist, neither I am hahah. But /ɑ/ and /ä/ for the letter "Ⲁⲁ" is very different, I mean, it's just how back/deep it sounds but still... For the sake of looking more appealing to me and based on the Wiktionary post about the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation I'll keep the Spanish "Aa" /ä/ one but I don't think it can affect that much, the language is already way easier to pronounce than others. Only you may confirm it. Oh, and I have a last question: Would you show the "Print" letter versions someday? I mean, they aren't as different but for example capital ltters like "Ⲁ", "Ⲅ", "Ⲙ", "Ⲛ", "Ⲝ", "Ⲧ", "Ⲩ", "Ⲫ", "Ⲯ" and "Ϯ" can look Very different from it's Unicode/"Sans serif" style. Specially cases like "ϧ" that in the font you're using looks exactly the same as the Uppercase version "Ϭ".
For the /ɑ/ and /ä/, I am personally more biased towards old-bohairic and so I tend to use its pronunciation for Ⲁ. This also tends to be the case in most hymns, which have preserved the old /ɑ/ of old-bohairic. Yes I will cover the print versions of the letters, I believe in the fourth video.
Thank you for watching this video! If you have any questions, clarifications, or corrections, please feel free to leave them in the comments below!
*note for beginners in the language, don't read this so you don't get confused*
0:25 well I might comment on this, the pronunciation is Greco-Bohairic and not dialect, there's difference between pronunciation and dialect, the dialect is simply Bohairic, and pronunciation of the church is Greco Bohairic. 0:55 ⲋ̅ is not a Greek character, it's also from demotic. 1:35 I disagree for Ⲃⲃ to be pronounced as 'V', according to the huge liturgical manuscripts which included the Arabic pronunciation for the letter Ⲃⲃ, the most simple one is the name of watos chants, it's from Ⲃⲁⲧⲟⲥ in the manuscripts that we have spell it in Arabic 'واطوس'.
5:57 not only Greek loan words that pronounce it as 'D' but also Coptic in almost all times, for example we recoded an exchange between letter ⲇ and ⲧ/ϯ for example in some Sahidic manuscripts it pronounced the Greek word Ⲇⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ into Ⲧⲉⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ or ϯⲓⲁⲑⲏⲕⲓ, even in some places in Egypt that their names goes back to Coptic names of places like دندرة Ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲱⲣⲉ, رشيد ⲣⲁϣⲓⲧ, or دمنهور ϯⲙⲉⲛϩⲱⲣ
Hello, thank you for your insightful comment. I would just like to add a couple of clarifications.
0:25 the reason I refer to it as a dialect is to clarify that Greco-Bohairic and Old-Bohairic are not even close to being the same thing. The pronunciations vary greatly not just with regards to letters, but also with regards to syllable structure. But you are right, they are not separate dialects since they preserve the same grammar and vocab of Bohairic. There isn't a good way to describe the difference between them, however; maybe accents?
0:55 to the extent of my knowledge, and correct me if I am wrong, ⲋ̅ is a form of the Greek ligature stigma, serving the same function; that is being the numeral 6. If you have more information about its delineation from a demotic rather than greek origin, please let me know.
1:35 this series is focusing on Greco-Bohairic pronunciation, and follows the rules set out specifically for that accent/dialect/pronunciation method; what ever we want to call it! 😅 While the Church has preserved the /w/ pronunciation in some popular words such as Ⲃⲁⲧⲟⲥ and Ⲃⲏⲥⲁ, these words are exceptions and not the rule. The Greco-Bohairic rule is for Ⲃ to be pronounced as a /β/ or /v/ when followed by a vowel.
5:57 while the letters ⲧ and ϯ were commonly pronounced as /d/ in Old-Bohairic. This is not the case in Greco-Bohairic.
The purpose of these videos is not to argue the validity of one form of the language vs the other, but rather to teach and practice reading according to the rules laid out by the Church for Greco-Bohairic.
I have some questions:
2:32 "Ⲁⲃⲃⲁ" and 8:40 "Ⲥⲁⲃⲃⲁⲧⲟⲛ" has double BB's so when they are followed by a vowel they are pronounced as a "B" instead of a "V" right? Is there any exception to the rule so it is pronounced as /b.v/ or a stop in between both similar sounds like /b.b/ or /v.v/?
2:48 "Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ" sounds exactly the same as 2:43 "Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ", for example I can hear the double "N" in 2:53 "Ⲙⲁⲛⲛⲁ". Is this an error or an actual exception?
7:18 Is the final "B" in "Ⲛⲉⲧⲃ" pronounced strongly or as soft/imperceptible as heard in the example?
8:21 Is the "ⲓ" in "Ⲇⲁⲛⲍⲉⲓⲛ" not pronounced as an exception or an error?
Hello @m4rloncha, thank you for watching the video! Before I answer your questions, I would like to clarify that I am not a linguist, just a Coptic enthusiast. I also don’t speak Coptic fluently, my first language is Egyptian Arabic, followed closely by American English; these two languages and their accents tend to influence my pronunciations. If anyone else is actually a linguist or has a better grasp of Coptic, I would like to hear their answers as well. Thank you! With this in mind, I will try to give you answers to the best of my abilities.
First, concerning 2:32 "Ⲁⲃⲃⲁ" and 8:40 "Ⲥⲁⲃⲃⲁⲧⲟⲛ;" these are both Aramaic/Hebrew loan words into Coptic, and thus, they have preserved their characteristic pronunciation. To the extent of my knowledge the “ⲃⲃ” does not appear in the Coptic Vocab except to emulate the /b/ sound of the Aramic letter Bēth. Two other things to note on this front:
1. Coptic never underwent a formal process of spelling standardization.
2. The Greco-Bohairic pronunciation is the product of an early modern attempt at reconciling Coptic pronunciation with that of Modern Greek. As a result, many nouns, common words, and phrases which were too widely used to be changed have retained the older Bohairic pronunciation.
Second, 2:43 "Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ" and 2:48 "Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ." They sound different to me, but maybe my vocalization is not clear enough! Anyhow, If we were to use IPA transliteration Ⲁⲙⲛⲁ should be pronounced as /ɑmnɑ/ and Ⲁⲛⲛⲁ should be pronounced as /ɑnnɑ/.
Third, 7:18 "Ⲛⲉⲧⲃ." Generally speaking Coptic doesn’t have any silent letters. I may not have vocalized it properly. The final ⲃ should always be pronounced as a regular /b/.
Fourth, 8:21 "Ⲇⲁⲛⲍⲉⲓⲛ." Both ⲉ and ⲓ are pronounced. Note that ⲉ on its own is pronounced as /e̞/ and ⲓ is pronounced as /i/. When placed together they should produce a diphthong similar to the ai in the english word Rain.
Thank you again for watching the video and for your comment!
@@AsItWas00 Hello again!
Wow, I saw something about a reform but I thought it was a spelling reform like any other language! Pronounciation reforms mostly fail because people simply don't accept the new change and still keep speaking the way they do on their home. But I can understand that at the time the reform appeared barely anyone outside religious situations spoke it so it makes a little bit more sense why some words could easily be written more phonetically but they decide not to.
By the way, I know you're not a linguist, neither I am hahah. But /ɑ/ and /ä/ for the letter "Ⲁⲁ" is very different, I mean, it's just how back/deep it sounds but still...
For the sake of looking more appealing to me and based on the Wiktionary post about the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation I'll keep the Spanish "Aa" /ä/ one but I don't think it can affect that much, the language is already way easier to pronounce than others. Only you may confirm it.
Oh, and I have a last question: Would you show the "Print" letter versions someday? I mean, they aren't as different but for example capital ltters like "Ⲁ", "Ⲅ", "Ⲙ", "Ⲛ", "Ⲝ", "Ⲧ", "Ⲩ", "Ⲫ", "Ⲯ" and "Ϯ" can look Very different from it's Unicode/"Sans serif" style. Specially cases like "ϧ" that in the font you're using looks exactly the same as the Uppercase version "Ϭ".
For the /ɑ/ and /ä/, I am personally more biased towards old-bohairic and so I tend to use its pronunciation for Ⲁ. This also tends to be the case in most hymns, which have preserved the old /ɑ/ of old-bohairic.
Yes I will cover the print versions of the letters, I believe in the fourth video.