This was a good talk! We have an action/RPG in development ourselves and have some of the same things going on about where do you draw the line between open world and story. Its also enlightening to read the comments about what other users think qualifies as an RPG and not.
Thing is Horizon is barely a RPG to begin with. It's an open world action/adventure with some minor RPG elements. The term "RPG" gets thrown around quite loosely nowadays, especiallly in AAA and gaming media, I've seen people who call Zelda a RPG...
You don't need markers on the map, but the player should generally know where to go, what they can go to and some visual indicator to help them navigate. BotW most definately does this. It uses huge towers (visual indicators), custom markers (visual indicators), glowing objects (visual indicators), negative space, etc. For example BotW doesn't have realistic visuals, it has poor draw distance and relatively simply geometry. This makes readibility easier. This in a sense is a luxury since it becomes more "empty" and visually distinctive. A huge open field with a stone circle is visually distinctive as is the huge tower peaking out from a relatively blank surrounding area. In all honesty, BotW didn't do anything brilliant or new with this. It's kind of strange people don't even realize this.
I mean. BotW also sticks markers on your minimap for some quests, and while they don't do it very often it still happens. Most of the time the markers aren't blatant "GO HERE" icons and are more like "Hey that thing looks significant, i'm gonna go check it out". Nintendo is really good at that second kind of "marker", they do it all the time without people realizing it, which is exactly how that second type should be.
Watch the Cedec talk they give and tell me it's not brillant, there is more than the "embodied" marker that make it work. They have gone beyond what is usually talked about in level design, especially with visual element. And they also use dialog to point at landmark to look for, further drawing attention to the environment.
Proof that we need to stop calling games RPG's because RPG's don't exist. Horizon is just another copy/paste open world game with a tacked on leveling system because it's "trendy". Can't we have a little more originality Guerrilla?
Guerilla used to make copy/paste dudebro shooters. They abandoned that to make a memorable protagonist in one of the most creative apocalyptic worlds ever in an area of the country that goes ignored in gaming. They have tons of different weapon types, a crafting system, and a story that amazes you with its twists even if you can see them coming. I don't understand how you can call something like this "copy/paste" with so many original ideas, especially compared to their previous meathead games with the most forced Nazi/Stalinesque villains since, well, Wolfenstein. The video's been up 22 minutes, 18 when you posted this, and is 32 minutes long. I don't know what "proof" you think you heard but this video literally has not existed long enough for you to glean any legitimate insight.
It's basically Farcry 3 in first person but you only have a bow and your machete has been extended in length to be a spear... and you can set traps... that's it. Farcry 3 is considered a first person shooter by many yet people consider Horizon to be a RPG when it is clearly a third person shooter stealth action game. I'm sick of developers claiming that they're making an RPG when they're clearly not, they just tack a few RPG elements on at the last minute ans ship it out. I want something fresh, something new, especially from a new IP... Horizon proves that developers are too scared to risk trying something different.
If The Witcher is an RPG, so is Horizon. Personally, I wouldn't qualify either as such. You have a linear FPS developer making a third person open-world quest-based game with arrows and floating numbers, and you're complaining they're not trying anything new. It's not new for the industry, sure, but they're pushing what they can do. If you can sit through this, watch NoClip's documentary. Wait, I can have an opinion like you. Hang on. Halo is just Smash Brothers with guns instead of melee and first person instead of third. For Honor is just Mass Effect with a different plot and knights instead of space marines. Plants vs. Zombies is Minecraft except 2D with plants instead of blocks
Exactly, the term "RPG" is nothing more than a marketing tool, the genre doesn't exist, Dungeons And Dragons was never a RPG it was a strategy game. People called it A RPG because Role Playing was a common metagame associated with DND. We need to stop using the word "RPG" to describe games, it's become a buzzword for developers and it also causes many developers to limit themselves for the sole purpose of bringing in a specific crowd. Some games are better WITHOUT RPG elements, not every game can get away with doing what Castlevania Symphony Of The Night did. Game design is like cooking, you can't just put chocolate and gravy into a blender and expect it to be good because it's not. Everything must work in harmony with one another for the game to work.
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This was a good talk! We have an action/RPG in development ourselves and have some of the same things going on about where do you draw the line between open world and story. Its also enlightening to read the comments about what other users think qualifies as an RPG and not.
Informative talk that touch on core fundamentals.
Im 15h in the game, and if i enter this level later, i'll think of Blake doing this level :)
Amazing talk!
Thing is Horizon is barely a RPG to begin with. It's an open world action/adventure with some minor RPG elements.
The term "RPG" gets thrown around quite loosely nowadays, especiallly in AAA and gaming media, I've seen people who call Zelda a RPG...
12:54 "It's very important in the context of an open world game" - oh, Dan Brown is definitely disagreeing here. And so is Zelda BotW.
You don't need markers on the map, but the player should generally know where to go, what they can go to and some visual indicator to help them navigate. BotW most definately does this. It uses huge towers (visual indicators), custom markers (visual indicators), glowing objects (visual indicators), negative space, etc.
For example BotW doesn't have realistic visuals, it has poor draw distance and relatively simply geometry. This makes readibility easier. This in a sense is a luxury since it becomes more "empty" and visually distinctive.
A huge open field with a stone circle is visually distinctive as is the huge tower peaking out from a relatively blank surrounding area.
In all honesty, BotW didn't do anything brilliant or new with this. It's kind of strange people don't even realize this.
I mean. BotW also sticks markers on your minimap for some quests, and while they don't do it very often it still happens. Most of the time the markers aren't blatant "GO HERE" icons and are more like "Hey that thing looks significant, i'm gonna go check it out". Nintendo is really good at that second kind of "marker", they do it all the time without people realizing it, which is exactly how that second type should be.
Watch the Cedec talk they give and tell me it's not brillant, there is more than the "embodied" marker that make it work. They have gone beyond what is usually talked about in level design, especially with visual element. And they also use dialog to point at landmark to look for, further drawing attention to the environment.
what the fuck was that?
Proof that we need to stop calling games RPG's because RPG's don't exist.
Horizon is just another copy/paste open world game with a tacked on leveling system because it's "trendy".
Can't we have a little more originality Guerrilla?
Guerilla used to make copy/paste dudebro shooters. They abandoned that to make a memorable protagonist in one of the most creative apocalyptic worlds ever in an area of the country that goes ignored in gaming. They have tons of different weapon types, a crafting system, and a story that amazes you with its twists even if you can see them coming. I don't understand how you can call something like this "copy/paste" with so many original ideas, especially compared to their previous meathead games with the most forced Nazi/Stalinesque villains since, well, Wolfenstein.
The video's been up 22 minutes, 18 when you posted this, and is 32 minutes long. I don't know what "proof" you think you heard but this video literally has not existed long enough for you to glean any legitimate insight.
Thought of the same thing. Horizon is not an RPG and calling it so only deceives people.
It's basically Farcry 3 in first person but you only have a bow and your machete has been extended in length to be a spear... and you can set traps... that's it.
Farcry 3 is considered a first person shooter by many yet people consider Horizon to be a RPG when it is clearly a third person shooter stealth action game.
I'm sick of developers claiming that they're making an RPG when they're clearly not, they just tack a few RPG elements on at the last minute ans ship it out.
I want something fresh, something new, especially from a new IP... Horizon proves that developers are too scared to risk trying something different.
If The Witcher is an RPG, so is Horizon. Personally, I wouldn't qualify either as such.
You have a linear FPS developer making a third person open-world quest-based game with arrows and floating numbers, and you're complaining they're not trying anything new. It's not new for the industry, sure, but they're pushing what they can do. If you can sit through this, watch NoClip's documentary.
Wait, I can have an opinion like you. Hang on.
Halo is just Smash Brothers with guns instead of melee and first person instead of third.
For Honor is just Mass Effect with a different plot and knights instead of space marines.
Plants vs. Zombies is Minecraft except 2D with plants instead of blocks
Exactly, the term "RPG" is nothing more than a marketing tool, the genre doesn't exist, Dungeons And Dragons was never a RPG it was a strategy game. People called it A RPG because Role Playing was a common metagame associated with DND.
We need to stop using the word "RPG" to describe games, it's become a buzzword for developers and it also causes many developers to limit themselves for the sole purpose of bringing in a specific crowd.
Some games are better WITHOUT RPG elements, not every game can get away with doing what Castlevania Symphony Of The Night did.
Game design is like cooking, you can't just put chocolate and gravy into a blender and expect it to be good because it's not. Everything must work in harmony with one another for the game to work.