Shadows of doubt: The unsolved disappearance and death of Joe Grozelle (2008) - The Fifth Estate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- In October 2003, third-year Royal Military College cadet Joe Grozelle simply disappeared. His body was recovered weeks later from the St. Lawrence River, but multiple investigations were unable to determine just how, when, where or why Grozelle died. In 2008, Linden MacIntyre revealed a hasty military investigation that only clouded the tragedy, and a family determined to get answers.
First broadcast date: October 2008
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About The Fifth Estate : For four decades The Fifth Estate has been Canada's premier investigative documentary program. Hosts Bob McKeown, Gillian Findlay and Mark Kelley continue a tradition of provocative and fearless journalism. the fifth estate brings in-depth investigations that matter to Canadians - delivering a dazzling parade of political leaders, controversial characters and ordinary people whose lives were touched by triumph or tragedy.
I'm I the only one stuck on "he had no water in his lungs" ??? So he killed himself, then zombie--walked and threw himself into the river?? Makes sense...
It is possible to drown with no water in the lungs. In response to a drowning situation, sometimes the larynx will slam shut and not reopen, despite the body gasping for air; essentially the person suffocates. This is unusual, but it does happen.
@@josi4251 true. 95% of these are children. Post-immersion Syndrome usually occurs 48h after a water accident. Don't remember anyone mentioning that. So how and why did he dry-drown? #ImConfusion
@@frankarschgesicht1797 I merely explained that such a cause of death is a medical possibility. I do not, however, have sufficient knowledge or authority to make a definitive diagnosis in this particular case. Also, the type of death I describe is different than the one you are talking about.
@@josi4251 uh! No! You described exactly what I am talking abt. Dry drowning; also known as post-immersion syndrome! Post-immersion syndrome or dry drowning ONLY occurs after a near drowning incident!! Again; where was this mentioned??
Crazy right wt……!
If they can't even figure out how/why he died, how can they say it was suicide? Absolutely a cover up and it's a horrible thing to do to his family. RIP Joe.
His girlfriend told the police he'd told her he tried to kill himself while he was still at school. Maybe she was lying.
definitely something fishy abt this .. i agree abt the cover up
For convenience...to tidy up loose paperwork.
Well the military did produce the killer Williams? Idiots every bit is cover up!
Yeah absolutely a cover-up
Military in every country are experts at cover ups.
The people with 💰 😕
Still no answers that is crqzy
Suspicious Ned Flanders it’s a fact get real. 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
Suspicious Ned Flanders because the press got involved.
@Suspicious Ned Flanders a
Feel sorry for the father, he's so sad and devastated. Poor soul.
I think he is angry and rightfully so.
@@kellyfinleybrown9313 He is also very frustrated...and who could blame him? Trying to find closure and getting nothing but the "run around"!
My belief is that they will be together again. I hope his family has that faith. That was my saving grace after my brother passed away many years ago🙏 RIP beautiful Joe❤
@@carolinebrennan3864 you are right i believe this to👍🏼!
Agreed, although all parents of soldiers are or should be prepared in the event of war for their loved one not to come back
What a sad story, this guy seemed like such a happy person. Every single photo he was smiling. That's a light that cannot dim no matter where he is.
And a beautiful smile.
You would never know the demons I carry with the smile on my face. Just because you see a smile doesn't mean there isn't pain and hurt behind it, it's a mask.
That said I don't believe the suicide story/side to this either, it always seemed very odd/fishy.
@@thecatatemyhomework (
Beautifully said! Magical801
@Magical 801, Ver Beautiful and heartfelt words.
Love and prayers to all his family and loved ones.
I can't believe this case hasn't been solved..... seriously what's it gonna take
If that happen here in the u.s most likely the case it’s been solve already, I feel sorry for the dad
@@marijogault1363 How do you figure that? Are you alluding that a US military group wouldn’t lie it’s face off?
the truth
I would have paid for my own autopsy. Don't trust anyone. Especially if it is this fishy
Is that actually possible in Canada? I've heard of it in one case at least in the US, but I think we have strict laws here around who can deal with a dead body.
@@cyrene7784 For sure in the US you can. Your loved ones body belongs to you not the state. From what I just googled it seems the same in Canada.
@@BLARG09 Then you're right they totally should have. Probably no point now. I imagine it's way too late to find much.
@@cyrene7784 if he's been embalmed there still could be something. But, your right the first guy probably destroyed evidence.
You all know more than I do about the US, though I'm American, but here in Italy this kind of thing has been a problem in the past.
Parents and other family members who are totally dissatisfied with autopsy results and want to have a second autopsy done have to get permission for the State to have the body exhumed. In the cases in which there's a cover up and law enforcement is part of the cover up, permission is denied, even when all expenses would be paid by the family of the deceased. It's a pretty clever way of putting the quietus on everything. Fortunately, the families don't go away though and law enforcement officials usually end up with egg on their faces.
As a graduate of Australia's version of Canadas RMC, I have no doubt this was a cover up. So obvious in Joe Grozelles case. He was a happy guy that was coping very well with academic and military life.
The reputation of the institution is all important. Sexual misconduct is a problem that has been covered up in military academies since forever. I really feel for Joe's family.
Hi Kate I totally agree
agree n yes its bad heir in Australia for that sort of thing even wit the churches. - I knew when I started watching it that it had something to do wit honoseulaity. n a cover-up.
Yes , I feel there's a sexual element
Agree. Top cover up because it is psychoneurotics in charge of investigation and institutions of power...
Why would there be a coverup. Do you even listen to yourself. He likely went out for some air and slipped on the rocks.
If someone is going to commit suicide, I highly doubt they're going to spend their last few minutes on Earth working on a homework assignment that's due the next day for a class they won't even be attending. That's really the best lie they could come up with? Pathetic.
My sincere condolences to Joe's family and loved ones. Really wish they could get the answers they so clearly deserve.
Excellent insight and point about working on the assignment...hadn't thought of that!
YOU ARE SO CORRECT .... ! Great Thinking
That all changes when your in that strict routine scenario. When I was in basic training we had a girl shine her boots then go into the bathroom and try and slit her wrists. She didn’t need her boots shined!
Can't agree more!
@Maria unless they have served in the Military they will never understand how it makes someone do crazy things. They either make you or break you before they let you in.
I'm an Australian and I really enjoy watching your show. Good to keep up with current affairs from overseas..
Michelle T
Totally agree w you about the show 👋🏼
I also enjoy it !
The keeping up w current events tho is not so with this particular one ☹️
It’s from 2008 😣
Still interesting subject matter though🥳
Another Aussie and watcher of the Fifth Estate.
@@withgoddess unfortunately as an Aussie I'm pretty disgusted with 60 minutes.
@@withgoddess
Me too, i live in vancouver and i luv watching 60mins australia!!!
@@lunagoodhart5489 How com ur disgusted with 60mins cuz i like watching it and i like how there short stories.
I'm from Ridgetown, Ont and remember when Joe went missing. There's a lot of unanswered questions ...people here really cared about Joe and were saddened by his loss.
Major cover-up.
Has this case ever been connected to the Smiley Face Killings??
Or missing 411 ? I wish the Dad knew to ask the Coroner to check for high levels of GHB.
Afraid you’re right, too many hush hush rules there. A terrible way for family to not have answers. 🙏♥️🕊♥️🙏♥️
22 days. He would be completely degloved. His hand skin would be off. Classic. He would be in FULL decomp yet no water in lungs and he was in fine shape. His dad had no problems identifying him. He was held somewhere alive or put in a feeezer and placed there
@Regina Phalange your name is amazing
I thought the same thing. He for sure wasn’t expired the entire time
not if the temperatures were freezing at night and not unusual for that time of year. the missing clothing and belt is suspect. no water in lungs.
Smothered or drugged if no sign,, so either they didn't find the drug because they would have to know what to test for or he was Smothered
Very much like many of David Paulides 411 Deaths of young healthy athletic men.
The public has been trained to be too trusting, yes a cover up,
but why?
I agree we were all trained at birth to trust too many things /nowdays we got computers do your own research/if in doubt throw it out is my motto/check everything/
There is no evidence of a cover up or for anything else. It’s just as bad to jump to conclusions as it is to believe everything. The only real answer is “I don’t know”.
@@judyives1832 he had no water in his lungs- he didn’t drown he was dumped there after he was murdered elsewhere. His body was not found when divers searched that water and they used sonars.
He still had his shoes on after 3 weeks in the water??? Come on!! Have some common sense. Why won’t the military answer any questions about the investigation to the family???? One reason - they are hiding something big- a murder - and protecting the person responsible.
Put a shirt on Nancy boy.
The fifth estate is textbook investigative journalism!!
Very thorough and credible!
Adore the Fifth Estate!
indeed
How unbelievably ridiculous that they cannot give a cause of death. My prayers to Joe's family. My heart breaks for them.
No it's not ridiculous at all. Finding a cause of death is often a hit and miss process and any coroner who believes that there is always certainty is either incompetent or lying. It's a probable drowning because drowning doesn't always leave clear indications. It's a probable suicide because any theory of foul play requires evidence and has to explain how the supposed killers maintained control of a young fit man without leaving a mark on him.
@@aarondavis8943wrong! Drowning is fluid/water in the lungs. If there is no water/fluid, it's not a drowning!
Great coverage on this horrific nightmare for these lovely parents. Joe seemed like a truly wonderful soul and know that his story touched a strangers heart. thank you.
Nobody deserves what these parents are going through. They deserve peace and I hope they get it . 🇨🇦❤️
I am not familiar with this case at all and it's my first time hearing about it. However, after learning about the kind of good hearted guy he was, it makes me wonder if he saw something or knew something he shouldn't have so "they" got rid of him. His character definitely seems the type to stand up against those who have wronged others or perhaps someone trusted him with a secret and it was found out that he knew of this secret. Either way, I find it hard to believe he just up and decided to kill himself. I too, have my bad days (like mostly every one of us) but if I end up deceased I'm telling yall it's not suicide. Such a horrible thing for his family and friends to have to live with, especially the not knowing 😔 RIP Joe 💞
Xeeeee
Same here. I've even wrote a memo that I wouldn't commit suicide. It goes against one of my dearest beliefs. It's so important not to give up. Spiritually the cost is far too steep. Thou shalt not murder includes the killing of oneself. So if I'm ever Murdered or go missing, please come look for me and seek justice. I don't want a homicidal maniac running amuck hurting more families. Not sure why it's so easy to dismiss cases as suicide or non suspicious, when that's clearly not the case. Undecided is still better than jumping to the wrong conclusions. It's important to capture violent criminals and bring them back to some form of Justice. To keep communities safe. And be weary of those who turned a blind eye to serious crimes.
Exactly my thought , he knew much, better or he was doing better than them probably, jealousy!
It's a thought publicly held by some of his fellow cadets - Russell Williams was at the campus around the same time as Joe, so of course conspiracies and rumours abound!
I agree . He appears a gentle soul and and easy target...sexual !???
I need full details on this case. What happened the night before - did Joe causally tell any of his buddies why he missed classes that morning? Simple missed alarm? Late night? What did he eat for dinner the night he went missing (could be vital re: ToD and his stomach contents). I'd like the transcript of Melissa's interview - what did they talk about that night, how did he seem? She was, I'm assuming, a regular overnight guest - did he often pop out without his watch and wallet, once he was in the room lounging for the night? What 'keys' were left behind? His main dorm keys? If so, he wasn't planning to leave the building. Is the base open and easy access like the local mall? Anyone could wander in and out? If not, what vehicles signed out that night/early morning? So. Many. Questions. This poor family may never receive the answers, but make no mistake: someone has them. R.I.P Joe 💐
You obviously are too bored! Get a life men
yes - you ask the right questions - if these FACTS known, family would have better idea of what happened. who were the 4 figures seen on camera?
I think one of the most poignant facts is him missing class. Very out of character. Even though he carried on normally for a short time afterwards, he was clearly disturbed by or preoccupied with something. Suicide is my best guess.❤
Lol.
@@AskAlex1999absolutely.
Been missing for 22 days and his dad recognised him? Hmm am pretty sure his body would be unrecognisable by that time and he had no water in his lungs. Foul play at its best ffs!!!
Clearly poor Joe's body was hidden in a deep freeze for 3 weeks.
There are some cases in New York with bodies in the river in same condition. They think they are a cult. Kidnapping and torturing and killing young men then freezing their bodies til the initial heat dies down and then suddenly they are found in the Hudson river. So sad.
body decomposes fast in the water, october in canada might not be cold enough to stop decomposition
Amazing sweet person with very good morals!
Something definitely very wrong.
I feel so much sadness when listening to the father..💔
~Rest in peace, Dear Joe~
🌸🌟🌸
David Paulides discusses this case in several interviews.
I have one question regarding cases such as these...
If you cannot determine a CAUSE of death, how can you possibly determine the MANNER of death (i.e. whether it is murder, accident, suicide, misadventure or natural causes) if you've no idea HOW they died?
Makes total sense!!!
EXACTLY,made a murder into a suicide,in my opinion.Cover up from the Get Go.
Excellent observation and question.
@@Talletc Definitely same thoughts of Missing 411. Dave profiled several cases of young college guys mysteriously disappearing. Vanishing from bars, lounges or on their way home alone from such places late at night and even alledgedly walking out of their apartments late at night leaving their wallets, cell phones behind. Bodies turning up weeks or months later in rivers no water in their lungs.Echoes of missing 411. My heart goes out to this young mans family They may never get answers. RIP young Joe.
@Joy Jones no water in his lungs. He didn’t drown. So how could he have killed himself?
They're trying to protect that military creep that wondered the dorms lusting after young men. Sickening.
My thoughts exactly. What closet-case had his sights on this goodlooking, charming young athlete?
I agree 100% Warren!
YEEEUUUCKKK!¡ 😳😵😡😠😨😧😤
don't use homophobia..... not cool
@@dawn.michelle.woundedarrow2048 Pointing out a predator is is not homophobic. Get a hold of yourself.
Not knowing what happened with your loved one scars you for life. I feel for Joe's parents.
The world lost a good guy, may Joe be remembered for decades to come.
Horrible enough to lose a child but to have no answers must be excruciatingly worse.
Joe be remembered for decades to come.
35
Joe be remembered for decades to come.
35
Granted, what I'm going to say is not about Canada, but....
There have been a number of well-known cases just like this one, over the past five or six years and probably longer, in Italy where I live.
Young men who are in the military or at the equivalent of Officer's training school who've turned up dead out of the blue. The cases have all been closed quickly, with the cause of death listed as suicide.
If it hadn't been for families who've refused to accept the quick closures and the autopsies that don't match the way bodies were found, various injuries that couldn't be explained, etc. etc., these cases which have all turned out to be homicides, would never have been solved.
I don't know what happened in this case, but I do clearly see that things don't add up.
Thanks very much for covering this case!!
Same in UK. Deepcut Army barracks. 4 young deaths...suicide...who can kill himself with a bullet in the back of the head using a rifle. Grrr.
Worried more about their reputation, than a young man’s life.
We have supposed "suicides" within the military here in uk too. Where someone has managed to shoot themselves in the head twice. Deepcut barracks being one example.
I think one of the keys here is that the recruit failed to report for duty the previous morning, which would usually result in a charge, unless there was a good excuse. What kind of establishment is this? His superiors had no issue with his being awol? So had something similar occured the previous night? Was he called somewhere? Maybe the lad was trying out for special ops, these are usually conducted out of hours.
The four figures on cctv are interesting. Did they pull the cctv for the previous night?
The GF is obviously the most important witness, as stated by another commentator, being the las person to see him alive, and presumably his closest friend.
Certainly a cover up. I feel sad for this guy's family not having any closure
This is absolutely sad. In the US there are crazy things in the military but at the Military academies things are so hush hush as to not smudge their reputation. These young people and their parents put their trust in an institution that is suppose train them to protect and serve our countries but as a trainee they are not protected. Where is the honor within these institutions?
Don't let your kids join the military!! They will be used and abused and then spat out ! In many Western nations further education and training has become so expensive that youngsters are being bribed into serving in order to access further education and training. The Germans pay for every single child to access higher education free of charge but in the UK and US it costs 40 grand or more!! And in the U.S. you don't even get proper health care coverage unless you enlist!!
This is how they use working class kids to fight the Middle East corporate wars. War is big business for the corporates and our military has not been used for primary self defence for fw decades! Have any of Trump's kids signed up????? Of course not !! Because they are not left deliberately desperate for opportunity!!!
Please please don't let your kids sign up! PTSD is a killer and left untreated so that we have many damaged people roaming around the West, many are then recruited as mercenaries. These wars against Islam have nothing to do with ordinary folk and if you allow them to use you to effect illegal regime change wars for oil and mineral resources then karma is gonna get you sooner or later. By karma I mean that your own conscience will gnaw at your insides. It isn't our fight.
@@outlawJosieFox so true i wouldn't let anyone close to me join the army to be someone elsee pawn and used n abused for monetary reasons , wars are all money based ffs
@@outlawJosieFox Agree with you.
@@outlawJosieFox @Josie Fox agree with you
I am so shocked that the school did not have cameras all over around school
Even if they did what’s the bet the most significant ones would have ‘not been working that night’ or some garbage.
I am so very glad his family will not give up or just trust the info they got. As a parent of a deceased 7 weeks ago I understand the pain and rage they feel. Don't let it go. RIP young Joe
My condolences to you, Lynne.
I’m so sorry!!!
Sending condolences from the UK 💔⭐❤💐
What a heartbreaking end to a life of promising high hopes. The pain 💔 😢 😪 must be unbearable for this family. Dear God give them peace as they search for answers. Lord allow the truth of this mystery to surface.
What a huge loss this has been.
So sorry for your loss Lynne 💔
When someone like Russell Williams can rise through the ranks and be a Colonel in charge of a base who steals undies, tortures, kills etc. then you know their self policing is useless.
Well now THAT'S a good point...
Exactly hallelujah
I lived in Kingston when this happened. I remember those missing person posters being everywhere. Hard to believe this was 17 years ago now. I hope the mystery of his death is finally solved, so the family may have some closure.
20, now!
There’s always some sinister secrets amongst big organisations like this ,so sad 😢
As if it was a cult wouldn’t it!
Hiding elite pedos.
looking at the father's eyes HE HAS DONE AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE
This guy seemed like a real sweetheart. Rest in love.
Tell us what happened Joe. Please.
What a sweet boy. I can’t imagine losing my son.
My Sincere condolences to the Grozelle family. The question that intrigues me the most is how can a body be discovered in the harbour, and not have water in the lungs? Obviously at least to me, the boy must have been killed first, then hidden for about two weeks, and then dumped in the water later, to be found. Whatever happened was at the very least nefarious, and certainly not a suicide, and he did not just slip and fall into the river and drown either.
If he had been in the water for 22 days you would not recognise him because the body would be extremely bloated and in bits and he would only be recognised by dental records.
Justice was no where to be found,for this young man and his loved ones.
Justice is Hand Delivered by the Oppressors. I have Served. He was Smart enough to Know Something about Someone. BOY'S CLUB !!!
I'm very sorry and sad about their son but I feel that he lost his life to someone that was jealous about his acknowledge and his talent. I know fist hand my brother was a Navy Seal and another Navy Seal murdered my brother in the 1st desert Storm on a ship in Turkey and this other seal shoot him in the head because his jealousy and this other Seal got a mental discharged and we had to buried my baby brother he was about to celebrate his 1st year of marriage to his beautiful high school sweetheart but to visit him at a graveyard and for the seals said it was friendly fired and to find out a lot of our military man lose their life's too friendly fire to me it's just a cover-up for the military and never finding out what really happened and I'm sure this boy is free from the mental hospital and living a perfect life while our family suffers every day with him in our life's ever having celebrating his wedding anniversary and ever having children. And it's all a cover-up to pertect the military and to makeup all these different stories to protect the Navy Seals. I'm so truly sorry for Joe's family and his girlfriend my ❤️ breaks for all his family especially his mother and father to raise him to be a good man and putting there trust in the military school that is so highly talked about. I believe that these young man and woman that entire in these schools should go through a psychologist or psychiatrist while they are going through this training to be seen by one of these Dr's every month to see how their mind is progressing through this training until they graduate to know if they are sound minded and can take on this training to in the military. God Bless you Joe I know that you are at peace with your maker and to your wonderful family I pray for them that in someway that they are in peace and Knowing you are safe in God's Hands. God Bless!
Connie Bollibon - I'm terribly sorry to hear about the murder and loss of your baby brother 😔 My heart goes out to your family as well as Joe's! I hope that Joe's family is able to find out the truth.
Thank you so much Stacie, I pray so much for Joe's family because we are still trying to find out the truth about the other Seal that killed him and to know that he lives in the State we grow up in. Now my mother has passed away but she said before she was passing away she know that she would be with her baby boy again. It has been so many years now since the 1st Desert Storm and today the news that Iran was sending missal's at the Americans all those memories were coming back. Because we were in war with them back in 1989 and 1990 because I remember so much because we were about to have our 1st baby December 13th our son and knowingly that our son would never get to meet his most wonderful and brave uncle and after watching The Fifth Estate which is one of my favorite shows and after watching about Joe and a announcement came across the TV that Iran was setting off missal's today and waiting for President Trump come on live in just a few minutes after I wrote this email to tell us about the attacks of missal's being targeted at the United States after I just watched the break in on the news all the memories were just coming back and our son just celebrating his 31st birthday in December it was like flash backs happened again and knowing I wouldn't be able to let my son join the military or another young man or woman join the military and lose there life's because of all the crap going on over there in those countries right now. And the only thing I can say is please let God protect all the Americans and the other Countries like Canada and England and Australia and watching and seeing all this happened again. Please God protect our Countries.
Connie Bollibon I’m so sorry you lost your beautiful baby brother in such horrible circumstances. Sending you and your family love.
Melissa in Australia
@Connie Billibon I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. I lost a friend in Gulf War 1. The army said it was suicide, but we put up a fuss and they finally admitted it was "friendly fire". He was shot in the head sleeping in his bunk. I still wonder what happened.
Such a harrowing trauma for you and your family and all who knew and loved your brother. 4 trainee soldiers died at Deepcut army barracks in the UK. Murders covered up as suicide but who can shoot themselves with a rifle in the back of the head? Grr.
We can't seem to keep people like him on this earth
This is so sad. It reminds me of the five Deep Cut barracks military cadets who died in mysterious circumstances in the UK. There was a culture of systemic bullying & abuse of new recruits, but no one has ever been prosecuted.
Yes, one had shot him self in the head twice!!!!!!
A suicide was confirmed!😮
My heart goes out to this family! He was definitely murdered, no water in his lungs. I hope the father and mother never give up looking for answers. R.I.P beautiful one!!
Someone saw him leave the dorm building that night. He left his stuff behind because he was coming right back. What about his phone? Any calls or texts? I know that we are not privy to everything in this investigation, and rightly so but still, I’d like to know. Someone got a hold of him somehow, either via his phone or by coming to the room and getting him to come outside for some reason.
It’s clear he was killed somehow. A wrongful death suit might be the only way to get answers.
Or he left his things because he WASN’T coming back. If he didn’t need them anymore. Suicide is a possibility. I hope there’s a resolution to this soon❤️
Truly heartbreaking. Joe seemed a lovely young man, definitely joes family need to stay on heels of RCMP !!
I went to high school with him, he was an absolutely awesome person! I hope for his family's sake they get answers. Too much has been hush hush with the military
RMC. Please!
@@lunathedragon4445 truly a special man from that video him talking bout humanity
what I've learned on the fifth estate...if you're going to commit a crime...do it in Canada...they can't figure anything out...lol
😂😂😂😂 best comment I’ve seen in a long time
Absolutely!
Or don’t want to.
lol
For real!!
That is pathetic. So basically no matter where you live, Canada USA or UK, the military and police are corrupt and inept. Why not just give that poor family some answers?!?! The more they drag it out the more harm it does to their organization. I feel at this point they are just punishing the family for wanting answers. How awful to watch his father struggle, and at the end when he stated why he was pushing so hard. Heartbreaking.
No evidence should ever lead to the conclusion of suicide! Someone knows something. Prayers to this family.🙏
I’ll never forget seeing Joe smiling and laughing with his buddies while sitting on the ground after basketball practice the night he disappeared. I truly hope his poor family gets the right answers soon. RIP Joe.
Somehow I feel that these loving parents will find the answers they've been searching for. A parent has a sixth sense, and I believe the answers are there to be found. My heart goes out to them.
I live in Kingston.They just had another disappearance last week.
Really??Tell us more
What a sad and puzzling case this is. Joe seem to have a lot going for him. Taken too soon.
It seems Joe either over heard and/or saw something that night, perhaps tried to intervene and was silenced.
You can see the frustration and pain in Joe's dad. The Military school has a lot to explain.
You all do a fantastic job covering things not normally seen on tv. Thank you for all you do. May God bless and watch over you all.
I can’t believe all the unanswered questions remaining around Joe’s death. How can this still be unsolved? These agencies have a DUTY to Joe’s parents, family and friends to establish what happened to this young man. And to all the parents that have entrusted their children to this military institution. I am so disgusted and heartbroken for this young man, there is no way that this was an accident and someone has to take this investigation seriously, regardless of the consequences. There is something extremely fishy going on. Shame, shame, shame on the Canadian Military.
The military is an institution that throughout history hid many truth about killing their young’s, foul play, incident. Let’s not be naive now!
Fort Hood, Killeen TX US Army facility has had so many missing and dead soldiers in peacetime at or near the base. 1 death is too many. Super SUS activities and possible COVERUPS!!!
🙏🏻the family gets some answers ! Someone is definitely covering up. Very sad. 😞
Hillary Clinton strikes again?
Water in lungs,he drowned. No water in lungs,he was dead before entered the water.
You can drown without water in your lungs. It's called dry-drowning. But I agree with you in this case.
@Walkin' Tall Exactly. Supposed to be excruciatingly painful. I actually first learned about it in a suicide case. I assume the person thought drowning would be peaceful and quick but they said he would have been in agony, if only for a few seconds. Very sad.
@Walkin' Tall But they found him 22 days after they had commenced the search. If he indeed died from drowning or from blunt force trauma and had fallen into the water, there would have been water in the lungs assuming this occurred shortly after his disappearance I would think. It would be hard to conclude that this was suicide imo.
Does anyone know if they searched the area already? Because if they did, that means somebody killed him elsewhere and dumped his body in the river somewhere after they searched the area.... edited, just found out they did search that area. Something very fishy is going on
exactly right! I thought straight away Joe died somewhere else and his body was dumped there. Also, I think his girlfriend, Missy, knows more than she's telling. I wouldn't trust her, but she's probably scared of repercussions
This is beyond terrible. He seemed like an amazing young man.
Most definitely. Very sad what happened to him.
This makes my blood boil!!!!!
They deserve justice!!!!
Larry
I have been obsessing over this case for 10 years! There is a pattern here with the RCMP! Cover-up, all the way. I have 2 theories and none of them contain suicide or an accident. The GF always gave me a chill up the spine along with his basketball buddies.
meta psychological - I haven't heard of this case until today. As I don't know enough about it, what are your thoughts about the GF that makes you suspicious. It is odd that she was the last one to see him AND was in his room before his death. I do find it odd that she didn't hear him leave unless she's a heavy sleeper?
Please give us your theory about the girlfriend
I think there were odd things going on in Joe's life in the days before his disappearance. [ex. missed classes]. Since he left his keys/ wallet behind that night, he didn't go out for a burger. I think he went out to meet someone....it went badly and he became a victim of foul play.
Yes I want to know why you think the GF was involved too. That was my first question. And if she's not, why wasn't she in this show, or helping the parents more? I have to wonder if a little classic military chauvinism wasn't going on here, as in girls are too weak and simple to possibly kill a man.
The GF was not involved.
Definitely a cover up, there no doubt about it.
I feel sorry that Joe's family has to deal with this. There should be truth so that they know precisely what happened to their son.
WHAT A CROCK,a COVER UP at its WORST,how did they think anyone would believe this BULL.The family should have demanded a coroner with no military involvement.
My heart goes out to this poor family. What an epic level failure by the so called, "esteemed " investigators.
Truly sad. The only people who are asking the right questions, are the parents of the wonderful young man. Heartbreaking. What would the investigators do if it had been one of their own children? Would they still deem it something to be swept under the rug? My heart aches for the family of the victim
Great quality program. My deepest condolences to the family.
Upon examination, was it concluded that the body had been IN THE WATER for three weeks? No mention that I heard. I mean, he was missing for about three weeks, and was suddenly found in the water, but they didn't comment as to if it had been determined that he was in the water for three weeks (condition consistent with that?).
Were there security cameras anywhere on the campus? Did they have footage of Joe leaving his dorm room?
What did they find on his computer, assuming that was where he had been doing his work? Did he complete the assignment on which he had been working that night? What time was the last entry?
They said it was uncharacteristic for Joe to moss classes. Yet, the morning prior to his disappearance, he had missed morning classes. I never heard a verified determination of his whereabouts that morning mentioned.
i feel sorry for joe's family, not knowing what happened to your loved one is scary, imagine being the one having to make the phone call, your son is dead
The bagpipes playing amazing Grace always makes me cry. My condolences.
My son drowned and I saw his body right after he was found, there's definitely some standard signs of drowning. That there wasn't water filling his lungs is a definite red flag.
This is the first Canadian case that I am aware of, but, it seems very similar to the cases often attributed to the group called, "the smiley face killers"; young men disappear, are found in water awhile later, found in locations that were searched prior,, missing clothing, no water in lungs, no clear COD or TOD, etc.,etc. May be worth exploring any connections??
Thank yiu for highlighting this case!!
The case of a soldier who had shot himself in the head twice, in the Deepcut barracks in the UK comes to mind instantly!!
His case was also classified as a suicide!!
Although many pathologists had said it's impossible for a person to shoot themself twice as the first bullet would not allow them to fire the gun again. But the army had insisted in was a suicide!!!!
It is such a heart breaking to see the deceased's parents being so helpless yet, fighting for justice to their son. Why on earth they are covering up the reality. It is dangerous to let go the criminals in society openly.
Joe may have died at the hands of another student or college staff member. Hence, the cover-up by the college.
He witnessed something he wasn't supposed to and it cost him his life
Poor family having no answers, and being left with no understanding not even a hint of what killed their loved one.
His Father is so angry and hurt, I hope they can find some peace and the strength to live with their loss as a family, this kind of tragedy very often tears families apart when there is a long fight for justice. It takes a massive toll on those involved.
After having lost a daughter to a no reason automobile accident I can sympathize with the parents. I know my life totally changed that day. You’re not just grieving for your child but you want to know why why why.
❤
This is the first case ever which hasn't been investigated at all . Feel sorry for the victim's family. He was murdered for sure. May his soul R.I.P.
what? mmiw???? so many cases go uninvestigated with indigenous people
How can one jump to the conclusion he killed himself if there is no obvious cause of death?
Brilliant investigative program. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 🇬🇧
Sounds very dodgy to me..Someone somewhere knows the answer to where and what happened to this poor young man.. I really hope the family get the closure they deserve...
My deepest condolences. What a loss to loved ones and Canada.
Do they have the equivalent of US fraternities in these schools? Was it some kind of hazing incident that got out of hand & they wanted to cover up?
Good point
@Ari W He was in his 3rd year. Hazing is generally reserved for Freshmen, not Junior's.
Ari W this was exactly my thoughts
This is a great program. Thanks
I don't know what happened to Joe but it was covered up that's for sure. To the Grozell family I'm so sorry you're going through this horrible nightmare. I pray you find out what really happened to your son. I love the speech Joe said in the beginning. He was a very special young man. 💟
I'm sorry for your loss. I pray 🙏 that the family finds out what the truth is. Please give them peace.
I had a 27 year old friend who one day walked over the the side of the canal, sat down and stepped out of his body. There were no drugs or alcohol or evidence of suicide or foul play involved. It will remain a mystery, but knowing him from a baby, it doesn't seem strange that such a thing would happen with this young man.
Yeah sure Sherlock...
@@joasok3642 That's what I said, but it was stiII true
I sense Grozelle was in the way of another student's plans of priviledge or advancement.
"a high basketball IQ"
😂🤣😅😉
Body recovered in water and has no water in the lungs indicates clearly that it was dead upon entry into that water
PARENTS KEEP YOUR CHILDREN OUT OF THE MILITARY AND ANYTHING RELATED TO IT! I WOULDN'T DARE PUT MY SON IN BOY SCOUTS MUCH LESS MILITARY SCHOOL! LET NOONE ELSE RAISE YOUR CHILDREN EVER!
Obviously you have had no military experience. There are far more botched up and covered up crimes in the civilian arena than in the military.. From personal experience one of two things could have happened that were not discussed on this show. Firstly in the military we play games on one another and that include mock kidnappings the other is specialist units that practice doing similar for various scenarios, something could have gone wrong and this time someone lost their life. Either of these would likely result in a cover up..
@@buddyhell7100 i dont disagree on the civilian aspect but many veterans carry over to that very civilian arena! I understand doing drills etc but still i am convinced that our young men and women are being led to the slaughter all over lies and banksters money! America is a bully not a peacemaker!
@@buddyhell7100 BTW PLAYING GAMES ON ONE ANOTHER? EXACTLY MY POINT!
Nikki Kelley Daft
@@buddyhell7100 Quit the daft games.
God bless his family, just heartbreaking. I hope they get their answers.
Gosh my heart broke for the family. The military have to continue to pursue this. They have a duty to do it.
I hope this is ongoing and that it is finally solved in his parents' lifetime. SOMEONE knows SOMETHING. 🙏
My heart breaks for the loss, of their precious son. Their much loved, child, I have 3 sons they are my world... I couldn't begin to imagine the pain, they are enduring. If I could think of anything comforting to say??? It would be your memories, they are something no-one could ever take,and many, many shared with the love of his family.
Family, keep at it. Don’t let people forget. It surely is a botched investigation .
THAT caring, kind soul commiting suicide WITHOUT leaving a note for loved ones? Not a chance. Even thinking about suicide would have him racked with so much guilt he would have felt he HAD to explain that kind of a choice to loved ones. His family deserves answers as well justice!
Never knew so many horrible things happen in Canada. Seems like lately alot of the stories I see were in canada.
Michelle Lowe Canada has a relatively low crime rate and murder rate especially in comparison with our direct neighbors
If your main source is this channel then it’s bc this a Canadian network that covers Canadian cases
Plenty of things happen in Canada people dont realize. Unlike Americans most here, are just better at hiding it .
I think statistically (per capita) we probably have as many sketchy things happening as the US. We just have fewer people.
Cyrene the Cat Thank you for not saying less people!
As an individual who attempted suicide I know how secretive and deceptive we can be so as to insure a successful suicide. I don't see any of that in the depiction of the young man in this matter. I fear his life was taken and sadly for the family, they may never know now due to the incompetence of the initial investigation. I would stay focused on the guy who re visited the dorms with a sexual interest in young men. It is clear that the victim was held captive somewhere for a period of time before being placed in the water. Blessings on the family in their tragic loss.
I don't think he was in the water since the night he went missing and the part about only some of his clothing missing seems strange…….i hope his family get more answers soon, its already been so many years!!!
Great story by the fifth estate, i love your programs and there always complete!!
The coronar couldn't even state if Joe had water in his lungs or not. What are they hiding? If he didn't have water in his lungs, he was killed. Does nobody with authority see that it looks like a murder is being covered?! I am so sorry for his family. It must be torture.
They cover an accidental or intentional crime...I think that Mr. Grozelle saw something disturbing at those night that shouldnt be told anyone and was murdered for knowing this...