The real reason why this video actually exists is because someone called out Gerald for his button mashing on his video about arcade sticks. Specifically, when he was talking about picking the Super version of a character in Super Turbo.
I like the comparison between Melee and Ultimate to demonstrate the effects of input buffering on the same move from the same character. That's an easy visual to understand for folks who are new to the concept. Another excellent video!
As a causal who has usually has enough of an interest in fighting games to learn enough to body any actual causal but lose to everyone who's actually good at the game, it's very much a thing lol
Actually in games like Contra you really do need to perform "calculated mashing" for speedruns, watch summoning salt’s video on the game for more detail, he does great vids anyways
It took me quite a while to realise that Tekken gives you generous input buffers for block punishers and combos. And yet I am to find a single Tekken beginner tutorial that mentions its existance in the game. Core A unrivalled as ever.
That's actually what I got out of this video! I knew my brother was able to counter my moves way easier than I thought he should be able to and now I know why.
>And yet I am to find a single Tekken beginner tutorial that mentions its existance in the game This with fighting games has always annoyed me. The actual info on how they work is not often available, and when you get into the games with a crowd who already know it they fuckin deliberately don't tell you how the game works and just say "git gud" lol okay. Basically only smash and sf have proper info out in the wild where you can actually learn it (so it is great fun when you practice for a few weeks then come back and destroy whoever was an asshole lol) without word of mouth or reverse engineering the game yourself.
4:34 Motion inputs actually do get an input buffer window in Tekken 7, but only if that motion isn't associated with a movement option like Paul's qcf crouchdash or Kazuya's wavedash So someone like Steve who has a qcf+1 can buffer it while blocking since Steve doesnt have any movement option associated with qcf, but someone like Paul who also has a qcf+1 can't buffer it while blocking because Paul's qcf is a command dash
Yep, this is the reason. EWGF and deathfist actually require the characters to be in a specific movement state in order to come out. As you can't be in the state while blocking, you can't buffer those moves. Another strange example is King's muscle buster, which is d db b 1+2 but actually requires you to entire a pre-crouch state for it to work. This is why you can't buffer it after an attack or blocking, but you can from a dash in since movement can be canceled with movement in Tekken (so you're not really buffering it, you're quickly canceling the dash). Giant Swing on the other hand can be fully buffered after an attack or blocking.
Damn you Core-A, you and your well explained comprehensive explanations of the nuts and bolts of mechanics! How can I justify my salty scrub quotes when I blame the game for not working properly when I now know it was doing exactly what it was supposed to do!
He has an entertaining way of presenting and approaching the topics he discusses but the resulting analysis is often weak and not well argued at all. He manages to come off as smart mostly through his way of presentation
@@Bladieblah Exactly, a couple of his videos (specifically, the one about motion inputs and reducing the skill gap) aren't as deeply analyzed as they should be in order to properly support his arguments. It's just that most of the FGC , fortunately or unfortunately, agrees with his views as presented in his videos.
this explains everything why i keep hearing on daigo's stream or anybody's stream button presses while blocking or in block stun state. Thank you Core-A as usual great content.
0:27 For anyone that tried this... it's probably actually much harder to do on YT than in Smash. It's difficult to do at even 10% speed because there's random frames of lag before the pause counts, which I found out mostly because I was trying to get that steam code at 0:22
Thank you. Your videos actually made me a better player just by knowing these many concepts that would never goten to where i play. (They were around all along,but like air it is here but someone has to to documente everything it can do and how so we can use to fuel a flame or to remove it to put out one)
I want to tell a small story. Growing up I used to be an insane masher. SFEX+Alpha was the first fighting game I ever tried, I was about 9. Could never beat it by just hammering buttons. For years afterwards it was a very bad habit. When I turned 15 I had the opportunity to go to EVO and watch Justin Wong on stage. I admired his playing ability as it looked smooth and easy. Not the insane roller tumbling I did. This inspired me to practice it myself. I also had the opportunity to ask him the question “when you fight you never look at your own character, why not?” Which further inspired me to practise. Breaking out of Mashing was a PAINSTAKING process. Something that was difficult and time consuming to do. It’s not something you learn in a few days, it takes weeks to months to drop that habit. First you learn rudimentary control, then you increase your speed. Years pass, and confident in my newfound ability, I decide to join a local Tekken 7 tournament. Because occasionally it feels good to play against other players instead of the CPU all the time. First fight I did knocked me right into losers. It was a battle against a Bryan Fury with titanic fundamentals. Being a Zafina/Lucky Chloe player I just was not prepared. Do I shake this guys hand and head back to the Green. Defeated, but pleased with myself. In spite of the beating I caught, I managed to take a round or two. Pretty happy. I talk with some of the other players who watched the fight and a few of them offer to help with coaching. Grateful. Half a day passes and it’s time for me to head into Losers to try my luck a second time, hopefully catch some sweet sweet redemption. First match was against an Eddy Gordo. Already bad news. The kid is he facing was only 8 and could have even been me at one point. Using all my focus I head into the match. I got thrashed. It was not even close. This dude was tennis balling the buttons like crazy and I could not keep my focus on anything he was doing he was hitting highs and lows all over the place. It was nuts. I had a mediocre first round fall, got perfected on the second (soul crushing) and then suffered defeats each round after. Seven round fight and I didn’t even take one round. So I went home a complete loser. From what I understand the Bryan player I faced won the whole thing and the kid I fought has since gone on to become a Yoshi player of some renown. Meanwhile I’ve plateaued. I’ve hit the middle limit. Confident in my fundamentals but lacking the Dex to improve further. Only competed IRL twice since and had roughly equal standings to my first showing. FIFO pretty much. That being said, I’ve never lost my motivation, as curious as it sounds, in spite of being as low as you can get on the spectrum of skill, I am always trying to one day break that limit and move forward. As Playing fighting games brings me incredible joy That Mashed Perfect I think is the motivator that keeps me going. I’ll never forget how that made me feel.
I always look forward to your videos they are always so well made with along with the editing, the commentary, and the clips that go along with them i’ve never seen a youtube channel come out with videos so well made such as these. Keep up the great work along with the editors and everyone who helps with these amazing videos!!!
The lack of buffer in Melee makes the skill floor really high but it also makes everything cool you do 10 times cooler. It reminds me of your "consequences of reducing the skill gap" video.
Great analysis. I'm used to doing the multiple button press to confirm something, or to 'input buffer' during a string so that it combos. Also, just frame punishes for moves like Lars' 14 frame FB.21 is tricky because you have to block a move that is exactly -14, then instantly do the Forward back-2 input immediately followed by 1 to get the punish. Something you gotta 'get good' for.
3:58 The input data for double tapping is misleading here. There's always an empty input between button presses (unless you plink which you mentioned and demonstrated) and you can't negative edge a normal so your window to hit a just frame is either exactly on the first of the two presses or two frames early. In theory double tapping helps but in reality it's too unreliable because of the gap in inputs and as you strive to improve your timing, the difference of "two early frames" is so apparent that double tapping in this specific scenario is just as effective as single tapping. Plinking is where it's at.
You're right that double-tapping, even when done perfectly, will leave a gap in between the two inputs of at least 1 frame. It may not be very reliable for inputting in a 1 frame window, but it's great for windows that are 2 frames and larger. Plinking is great for those 1 frame windows, but it's a technique that only exists in games like SF4 which have a lot of input leniency and where heavy buttons have priority over lighter buttons when pressed simultaneously. In fact, plinking is short for "priority linking" which is a reference to SF4's input priority system.
@@mrosskne Because the game registers button release as an input. Negative edging wouldn't be possible otherwise. So the fastest double tap possible will result in three inputs: button > release > button. And when I say empty I'm talking specifically about normal moves. For special moves the "release" input is counted as a regular button press. But if you hold jab and try to release it in neutral nothing will come out, hence "empty"
That "pause the video to get the timing" thing was great meta interaction! Genuinely felt good to get it 1st try, but wasn't surprised to fail there after. Feels good once you get the rhythm though!
UNICLR and some other anime fighters have a lot of focus on blockstrings, and in them, there will be wide enough gaps where you can throw out a move to counter-hit. However, it's a little difficult to get the move out at the right moment unless you mash. For example, if an Enkidu does a blockstring on me, and I notice they always have one specific part they like to do in a string, I can mash 2A or 2B to get out of it and start a combo.
its weird to hear "pre-order" used so much instead of just "buffer" because im used to using buffer and never hear people use pre-order to talk about this.
Felt the exact same. Worked great for the lead-in example, but was weird to hear him keep using "pre-order" and even switch back and forth between using that and [input] "buffering". (Is the use of pre-order more common to a specific fighting game's community, and/or I'm just unfamiliar with its use?)
@@ballaaaaaa That's why I thought it was so great for the segue! There's at least a handful of other comments saying the same, which shows it was an effective example. Unfortunately, there's also a problem that arises when you start to muddle terminology like this. Learning/teaching the term as "pre-order" may cause confusion when communicating with players who ARE already more familiar with FG terminology (i.e. outside of this specific video's comment section). It just felt like he should've stuck with using "input buffer"/"buffering" after introducing the term (@ 3:12) instead of swapping back and forth -- he's back to "pre-order" @ 4:22, and then swaps immediately back and forth @ 4:47 & 4:48, etc. Two comments worth of whining [from me] was more than this topic needed, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from, too?
@@Oranos2115 Thanks for the timestamps, duder. The use of the term actually made me both subtly anxious about some sort of sponsorship segue in the middle of the video (these can be funny from some YTers to be fair but are in longer videos) and made me think about the types of people who may even screenshot these parts or share them with others even if no one prior to now has related it to a preorder window which it is only topical now because next gen is near maybe (this could have been part of the edit while using the term "buffer" as often as possible). I don't think it is a miss for CoreA video though. He quickly covered the art of mashing in Mario Party with a popular streamer, a comparison between buffer systems for the same attack in two of the most popular games, cases where buffering does not apply (Normal attacks) and exceptions to allow more possible chances to get your attack (Negative Edge and plinking). The word use is just a little curious.
"pre-order" isn't used by anyone but this video. It's trying to explain the concept to people who aren't familiar with fight game terminology. "pre-order" makes sense of the concept "ask for it early and get it just as it's available."
Omega SF4 actually added an input buffer kind of like SF5's, but it only worked on offense (i.e. if you hit a button or do a special, your next input could be buffered). This meant that if you have something that's 0 on block (or even -1 sometimes), it becomes really easy to keep up a "fake" offense because your opponent has to perfectly time their defensive buttons while you can mash your string. They also removed DP shortcuts which made it even harder to defend against this strategy
Fun fact: Ultimate has 2 layers of buffer. One being the 9 frame buffer mentioned in this video, but there is also a hold buffer, which means as long as an input is made while your character was inactive and you hold down that input until your character is active, the game will play the held inputs once your character is active. I don't understand why nintendo/namco did this, but it sucks and they need to fix it.
@@hotnuggies4208 It makes execution easier for normal players but harder for good players, ironically. It helps people that don't have good execution do things easier, but in the case of a pro, where their actions are very precise, the hold buffer actually makes it harder to do exactly what they intend to do. It's like the difference between a manual and automatic car. Automatic is easier to perform decently with but manual is the way to go if you want precision and control.
@@Shabadaba1216 How does it make it more difficult for pros? The possibility of hold and input buffering doesn't make it more difficult to be precise, to the contrary; it enables you to be precise. Without it, it would be impossible to act frame perfectly in many scenarios. It is humanly not feasible to time your inputs frame perfectly all the time, buffering is required for perfect execution/precision, not the other way around. It's a known thing that melee players can be faster depending on their form of the day because of this. On a good day, they're hitting more frame perfect or close to frame perfect inputs for movement while they miss frames on "bad" days. With a buffer system, they would be much more consistent in movement
A great topic to adress later is the explanation and differences of the diverse types of tag teams, the ones with assists, the ones of "you died, then next comes" or the "changeable at any time and order", and how they impact the gameplay strategy, i don't know, i just didn't found anyone talking on the subject on youtube, and damn, i really want a "changeable at any time" type of tag team for smash bros, i mean, squad strike is cool (and it deserved better by being inluded online, but meh...maybe in the next game? who knows...) but i really want to see that type of gameplay implemented (and also, online e.e, if it isn't in online as well, peoeple will just let it pass by)
This is why I like using the yellow C-stick when I can in melee. The C-stick gives an sends an input for every frame, making it much more likely to get frame perfect input by doing it slowly or wiggling it towards one way. It can be useful for using out of shield options, smash attacks, and aerials
@@djhooker8782 It's not really a true buffer. A buffer takes input from a set window and places them on the first frame actionable. However, there's a unique property with both the c-stick that is normally reserved for the analog stick/analog button. It has the ability to input every frame possible. The inputs aren't buffered, they bombard every possible frame and get ignored until the first frames of the actionable window appears, then gets ignored again during lag. This has unusual implications. Flicking the c-stick fast makes timing tricky to get. But if you do it more slowly, the time window is incredibly easy. However, when you need to input more than one input per direction, then wiggle to one side Due to how c-stick, shield, and wavedashing work together, this makes all sorts of defensive options in melee easier to execute
something interesting is that ultimate has a buffer of sorts for *releasing* shield. So for multihit moves, its very common to release the shield button while your shield is still getting hit, and the game will hold shield for you until the attack is over and drop it right after. Only problem is, for bowsers Up-B, there is a small delay in the middle of the multihit or something, because it actually triggers your shield to drop while the attack is still going on and you get hit. So for noobs and really anyone who isnt familiar with it, bowser gets a lot of free hits on that move.
This video reminded me of when not so long ago a friend came to my house and since we got nothing to do i said "wanna play some fighting games?" And so we did, the thing is, he doesn't have really much experience so he mainly button mash every single character he plays, the thing is, we played UNIST and he told me "the thing i don't like about fighting games is that you can spend lots of time but then some can just mash everything and you'll lose" so we fought and he won, however, to prove him wrong, i picked a character i know how to play (in that case, Chaos), and we fought again several time, most of the times i won, but there's the thing *most of the times* so, in conclusion, button mash works, but with enough skill you can still win most of the matches against a button masher
GREAT JOB! I did it :-D Had to adjust for youtube's ridiculous 13 frames of lag but after figuring out the adjustment time I can do it once every 5 tries :-D
Just want to get a contest going, how many times in a row can you get the frame perfect pause? I got 2... Timestamp for contest: 3:24 (8 in a row, just rewind to try for more)
I got like 4 out of 10, none in a row, but I am not about to sit here and try for longer than that one attempt. 8 in a row is impressive. In fact I don't really believe you, but good job if true XD
This is maybe the first time I've heard performing a command before your player can move as "preordering" instead of "buffering" Great vid as always Gerald!
edit: i should have considered how authoritative this comment sounds, in reality i dont know a terrible amount about this subject so i shouldnt have written so confidently. there are some games that can detect inputs at higher rates than the current fps on screen. whether or not the programming actually accounts multiple presses in that manner is... i dont know, i wont say anything else one way or another because im still doing research on this subject. 1:38 this is actually inaccurate! assuming this visual is supposed to represent one button being mashed, it is literally impossible to press a button two frames in a row as shown on the 4th, 6th and 9th line down. the reason for this is that a game can only tell if a button is being activated or not. so even if you did physically press a button two consecutive frames in a row, the game will treat it as if you held the button down because from it's perspective, thats what you did. so for example, in a 30 fps game the fastest you can mash a single button is only 15 times per frame, because the game must read that button as being un-pressed (no input) before you can press it again, or else it thinks you simply held it. i also have a problem with 2:19 because almost every time at least some inputs will overlap (you press/let go of two buttons on the same frame) which wouldnt increase your chances. it would have been better to say you get UP TO 6 punch button inputs. in reality youd probably get 4 or 5 most of the time
It is possible to have input rate faster than framerate, though. If you think about a game like Ocarina of Time, it visually updates at 20fps but receives inputs at 60.
its possible to get 2 inputs in a row which are functionally the same in games which have a button priority system by doing plinking (priority linking) e.g. in SF4 which has heavy > medium > light > select button (input display will show e.g. M, L+M for 2 mediums in a row) in the SF4 example this is because if you press a second button the frame after having pressed the previous one (and still holding it) it'll count it as a simultaneous button press of both that button and the previous button (input leniency or kara inputs or etc) likely what it was a reference to, probably not worth going on a tangent about it in video tho
About Negative Edge: Wouldn't that input risk the attack coming out as an EX Attack in certain games, considering the button presses are so close together?
I have a fun story. Me and my class were going to Prague in highschool for school trip. It was about the time when I wasn't really liked to the fullest by friend group I was supposed to be in the room with (4 of us). They acted cool tho. On the first day one of my friends mentioned he brought PS1 with Tekken3, and there was TV in the room. We decided to connect it. We played few rounds for warmup, and then the tournament. During warmup I watched their plays and subconciously started understanding their moves. I was not in shape, since last time I played any fighter was 8 years ago at that point. But it's Tekken, it can't be that different, right? After all I spent days and days on Tekken 7 and NFS on PS2 during hot summers as a kid, and I was still an active PC gamer. I went against one friend which I won, because he played poorly. Second round was between the other two where one guy was annoyed that his opponent was button smashing with Yoshimitsu. He managed to hit him few times, but in the end he was beaten by button smasher. It was my turn against button smasher, I played King. I was losing for the greater part of the round, until something clicked. I found his weakness. I knew where he would start spinning, which meant I could bait his spin, so I tried it. Got close, dodged, and sure enough, he spun. I immediately knew I can beat him, since no way devs would not make his hurtbox exposed during one part of that animation. I hit him, and sure enough, it registered hit. I knew I was in the zone. I proceeded to bait and punish like 10 of his attacks and won. I didn't say anything, except talking with my friends. He was salty, and complaining about how I onetrick (oh what an irony), and told me to try and play something else since we played best of 3. I did, but he still picked the same character. I proceeded to wipe the floor with panda, which is immobile so it was harder to bait his hit. But I still managed it. This time, while asking him for a 3rd round, even tho I won, I told him "I changed my character, why don't you change yours now?" wishing he doesn't change it, so I could beat him once more. He didn't change character. So I went back to King. Needless to say that he stormed out of the room after the game, and went fir the smoke. I just looked at my friends who sat there, and smirked. I was winner of that little two-bracket tournament, and my friends respected me more after that.
Apart from the superb content which is well-researched, organized, and narrated, let's all appreciate how Gerald's choices for ads aren't him whoring his channel out for sponsors. They're nice and practical products or services that he himself can get behind.
Man every time one of these videos drops I get really motivated to play the fighting games I love to watch then spend a week practicing before realizing I'm just not good enough to play fighting games.
As tekken player that don't remember the basic fundamentals from master raven input commands (regardless me trying git gud learning from the lab) plus pressing radoms bottoms I've the luckiest online wins ever with master raven, great times. 🙃👍 Also: *finally* an video about it.
Many thanks to Ridge Wallet for sponsoring this video. This kind of support helps pay rent for our fighting game venue out here in Seoul, Korea. If you want 10% off a wallet, go to ridge.com/COREAGAMING
I'm still mentally stuck on how any real-world concept could be do confidently called something as blatantly shonen as, 'negative edge.' I love this term so much, despite not really understanding what it means - even after the explination in this video.
An alternative for Negative Edge is "button up" if you prefer. It is more obvious what it means and the inverse is "button down" (which also has a positive edge counterpart). Tiger Knee is a funny one for sure. I don't think there is an alternative besides saying "perform air special by starting the command on the ground to unleash it at the lowest height possible as you jump". The source of the name is a command (12369) which isn't even used for Tiger Knee in modern games and is very rarely used for a specific special. That isn't even mentioning how some "Tiger Knee" use may not even need a command or needs another command entirely. (Or how Sagat didn't use it)
From what I've gathered online: Negative Edge occurs when you depress a button used for a super or combo input after holding/pressing the button down then inputting the joystick/directional portions. So, in order to do the combo via Negative Edge, you press the button down, input the directions for the combo, then release the button. I'm still a bit confused, so let me know what I got wrong
@@REXanadu You are generally on point. Depressing a button/button up/Negative Edge is just a way of interacting with buttons. In some cases, this can perform a move alone (Balrog's Turn Punch is a special with no motion or charge, it can only be done by releasing). We generally use it to refer to doing a motion or charge special or super if the game supports releasing buttons as a "press", but nothing stops games from using the concept differently since even Street Fighter has exceptions. I wrote about it here: www.giantbomb.com/negative-edge/3015-1144/ If anything isn't clear, let me know.
the double tapping technique reminds me of mario 64 speedruns, where you can dive by pressing B with a certain amount of speed, and when you land from the dive you can either press A or B to roll out of the dive landing animation, and of course the fastest viable way to move is by diving and rolling out, and if you press a or b the first frame you land from the dive you will do what's called a Dustless rollout and you can increase the chances of getting one when you roll your index finger between A and B and thus move fast as fuc boi
I was trying to explain a friend about what is input buffer in smash yesterday. The conparison of pre-ordering a game is really useful in understanding it.
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why Button Mashing Doesn't Work [Family Man Edition]](/img/n.gif)
Button Mashing in Core-A Gaming canon goes in this order:
Doesn't.
Does.
Maybe.
Mabn't.
@@aldxbaran cursED
Finally: another core a video about button mashing
Great vid, but I'm just kinda depressed at how much the fgcu shirts on smash ultimate
@@WB_WRHD It's just a game. People gotta lighten up and accept that competitive games can be different from eachother and it's no big deal.
@@WB_WRHD not everyone is going to like the things that you like. No big deal
@From Maui constructive comment.
@@skyedogg true but there is no need to shit on it.
The real reason why this video actually exists is because someone called out Gerald for his button mashing on his video about arcade sticks. Specifically, when he was talking about picking the Super version of a character in Super Turbo.
I like the comparison between Melee and Ultimate to demonstrate the effects of input buffering on the same move from the same character. That's an easy visual to understand for folks who are new to the concept. Another excellent video!
Video begins*
Ah yes, Fox once again always getting the spotlight
Video when luvdix
Bruh when are you making a new vid with Papa Jon’s???
he isnt dead
@@ibeatmywifeandkids9084 maybe i am
I stand corrected daddy ludvix
My motto is: “if I don’t know what I’m doing, neither does my opponent”
they still can punish tho
Definitely me when I try to mix someone up.
Fucking Ken players
In melee some people circle the control stick really fast when rolling from a tech so that even they dont even know where or if they will roll
@@DeriDraws that just means you haven't had enough to drink yet
Coming Soon: Why Button Mashing sometimes works (family man edition).
Calculated mashing is a word i never thought would exist
Dragonball FighterZ: The Game
Excperts call it fuzzy mashing~~
I prefer "controlled mash"
As a causal who has usually has enough of an interest in fighting games to learn enough to body any actual causal but lose to everyone who's actually good at the game, it's very much a thing lol
Actually in games like Contra you really do need to perform "calculated mashing" for speedruns, watch summoning salt’s video on the game for more detail, he does great vids anyways
Buffering is one of the most overlooked mechanics imo, great vid
It took me quite a while to realise that Tekken gives you generous input buffers for block punishers and combos. And yet I am to find a single Tekken beginner tutorial that mentions its existance in the game. Core A unrivalled as ever.
That's actually what I got out of this video! I knew my brother was able to counter my moves way easier than I thought he should be able to and now I know why.
>And yet I am to find a single Tekken beginner tutorial that mentions its existance in the game
This with fighting games has always annoyed me. The actual info on how they work is not often available, and when you get into the games with a crowd who already know it they fuckin deliberately don't tell you how the game works and just say "git gud" lol okay. Basically only smash and sf have proper info out in the wild where you can actually learn it (so it is great fun when you practice for a few weeks then come back and destroy whoever was an asshole lol) without word of mouth or reverse engineering the game yourself.
i know this is 3 years late but avoiding the puddle has like 3 or 4 videos just on input buffering alone
Huh, I got the Punch Planet steam code at 0:26! Thanks Core-A!
Ha, I was too late to get it but was wondering what the game was. Nice one
I don't see any code
@@saltyluigi4011 If you pause on correctly 28th frame immediately after Gerald says "Entire minute", there's a code next to Fox's face.
This was really interesting! Great vid.
I know you’re a fan of Ganondorf in the newer smash games, but do you play melee at all?
You and Core A are some of my favorite video game essayists! have you ever thought about doing a video essay on any fighting game topics?
Dang the all stars watching this channel, love your videos man
4:34 Motion inputs actually do get an input buffer window in Tekken 7, but only if that motion isn't associated with a movement option like Paul's qcf crouchdash or Kazuya's wavedash
So someone like Steve who has a qcf+1 can buffer it while blocking since Steve doesnt have any movement option associated with qcf, but someone like Paul who also has a qcf+1 can't buffer it while blocking because Paul's qcf is a command dash
Yep, this is the reason. EWGF and deathfist actually require the characters to be in a specific movement state in order to come out. As you can't be in the state while blocking, you can't buffer those moves.
Another strange example is King's muscle buster, which is d db b 1+2 but actually requires you to entire a pre-crouch state for it to work. This is why you can't buffer it after an attack or blocking, but you can from a dash in since movement can be canceled with movement in Tekken (so you're not really buffering it, you're quickly canceling the dash). Giant Swing on the other hand can be fully buffered after an attack or blocking.
"You watch Core-A Gaming?"
"Only the ones about button mashing"
Damn you Core-A, you and your well explained comprehensive explanations of the nuts and bolts of mechanics! How can I justify my salty scrub quotes when I blame the game for not working properly when I now know it was doing exactly what it was supposed to do!
He has an entertaining way of presenting and approaching the topics he discusses but the resulting analysis is often weak and not well argued at all. He manages to come off as smart mostly through his way of presentation
@@Bladieblah Exactly, a couple of his videos (specifically, the one about motion inputs and reducing the skill gap) aren't as deeply analyzed as they should be in order to properly support his arguments. It's just that most of the FGC , fortunately or unfortunately, agrees with his views as presented in his videos.
@@Bladieblah The ceiling for people to take a TH-camr seriously is very, very low
this explains everything why i keep hearing on daigo's stream or anybody's stream button presses while blocking or in block stun state. Thank you Core-A as usual great content.
LMAO didnt expect to see Lud in this video
On the list of people I didn't expect in a Core-A vid, Lud was on top
the true god of button mashing himself #mogulmoves
Especially since he didn't get the record
I double tapped on this video to just frame watch it.
but did you piano the like button?
To anyone who came here from Trash Taste Podcast.
Welcome! and Enjoy Quality Fighting Game content
"So anyways I just started mashing..."
the melancholy placement of steve for the ultimate clip lol
0:27 For anyone that tried this... it's probably actually much harder to do on YT than in Smash. It's difficult to do at even 10% speed because there's random frames of lag before the pause counts, which I found out mostly because I was trying to get that steam code at 0:22
Thank you for using BMS (Beatmania) as an example here in. this video since it's been in my head for a while now. Amazing video as always my guy
The preorder analogy is just genius. Top quality as always!
Instant click. The long awaited sequel to the 2019 (or 2020 idk, time ceased to have any meaning for me ) smash hit "why button mashing doesn't work"
I was suspicious about the preorder segway, at first i thought it was an add to a game website of some sort...
love the "great job" on the 28th frame. Stops me from feeling stupid after trying for almost a full minute
Thank you. Your videos actually made me a better player just by knowing these many concepts that would never goten to where i play. (They were around all along,but like air it is here but someone has to to documente everything it can do and how so we can use to fuel a flame or to remove it to put out one)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that does this - it always made me feel super scrubby double or triple tapping the inputs
I want to tell a small story.
Growing up I used to be an insane masher. SFEX+Alpha was the first fighting game I ever tried, I was about 9. Could never beat it by just hammering buttons. For years afterwards it was a very bad habit.
When I turned 15 I had the opportunity to go to EVO and watch Justin Wong on stage. I admired his playing ability as it looked smooth and easy. Not the insane roller tumbling I did. This inspired me to practice it myself. I also had the opportunity to ask him the question “when you fight you never look at your own character, why not?” Which further inspired me to practise.
Breaking out of Mashing was a PAINSTAKING process. Something that was difficult and time consuming to do. It’s not something you learn in a few days, it takes weeks to months to drop that habit. First you learn rudimentary control, then you increase your speed.
Years pass, and confident in my newfound ability, I decide to join a local Tekken 7 tournament. Because occasionally it feels good to play against other players instead of the CPU all the time.
First fight I did knocked me right into losers. It was a battle against a Bryan Fury with titanic fundamentals. Being a Zafina/Lucky Chloe player I just was not prepared.
Do I shake this guys hand and head back to the Green. Defeated, but pleased with myself. In spite of the beating I caught, I managed to take a round or two. Pretty happy. I talk with some of the other players who watched the fight and a few of them offer to help with coaching. Grateful.
Half a day passes and it’s time for me to head into Losers to try my luck a second time, hopefully catch some sweet sweet redemption.
First match was against an Eddy Gordo. Already bad news. The kid is he facing was only 8 and could have even been me at one point. Using all my focus I head into the match.
I got thrashed. It was not even close. This dude was tennis balling the buttons like crazy and I could not keep my focus on anything he was doing he was hitting highs and lows all over the place. It was nuts. I had a mediocre first round fall, got perfected on the second (soul crushing) and then suffered defeats each round after. Seven round fight and I didn’t even take one round.
So I went home a complete loser. From what I understand the Bryan player I faced won the whole thing and the kid I fought has since gone on to become a Yoshi player of some renown. Meanwhile I’ve plateaued. I’ve hit the middle limit. Confident in my fundamentals but lacking the Dex to improve further. Only competed IRL twice since and had roughly equal standings to my first showing. FIFO pretty much.
That being said, I’ve never lost my motivation, as curious as it sounds, in spite of being as low as you can get on the spectrum of skill, I am always trying to one day break that limit and move forward. As Playing fighting games brings me incredible joy
That Mashed Perfect I think is the motivator that keeps me going. I’ll never forget how that made me feel.
I literally stopped everything I was doing to watch this video. Let's gooooooooooo!
Man that "Gandhi" Ryu vs Rufus Street Fighter IV match is highlighted a lot on this channel. Truly legendary Ryu play.
Rhythm games are much more possible to do accurately since there's audio signals telling you when to press it.
it’s called “rhythm” for a reason
Idk, I can block snake edges better because they usually have obnoxious sound warnings before they come out
It's honestly impressive how consistently great your videos are. Kudos.
I always look forward to your videos they are always so well made with along with the editing, the commentary, and the clips that go along with them i’ve never seen a youtube channel come out with videos so well made such as these. Keep up the great work along with the editors and everyone who helps with these amazing videos!!!
The lack of buffer in Melee makes the skill floor really high but it also makes everything cool you do 10 times cooler. It reminds me of your "consequences of reducing the skill gap" video.
aka "Input buffering but titling the video around button mashing was funnier"
Great analysis. I'm used to doing the multiple button press to confirm something, or to 'input buffer' during a string so that it combos. Also, just frame punishes for moves like Lars' 14 frame FB.21 is tricky because you have to block a move that is exactly -14, then instantly do the Forward back-2 input immediately followed by 1 to get the punish. Something you gotta 'get good' for.
3:58
The input data for double tapping is misleading here. There's always an empty input between button presses (unless you plink which you mentioned and demonstrated) and you can't negative edge a normal so your window to hit a just frame is either exactly on the first of the two presses or two frames early. In theory double tapping helps but in reality it's too unreliable because of the gap in inputs and as you strive to improve your timing, the difference of "two early frames" is so apparent that double tapping in this specific scenario is just as effective as single tapping. Plinking is where it's at.
You're right that double-tapping, even when done perfectly, will leave a gap in between the two inputs of at least 1 frame. It may not be very reliable for inputting in a 1 frame window, but it's great for windows that are 2 frames and larger.
Plinking is great for those 1 frame windows, but it's a technique that only exists in games like SF4 which have a lot of input leniency and where heavy buttons have priority over lighter buttons when pressed simultaneously. In fact, plinking is short for "priority linking" which is a reference to SF4's input priority system.
Why is there always an empty input?
@@mrosskne Because the game registers button release as an input. Negative edging wouldn't be possible otherwise. So the fastest double tap possible will result in three inputs: button > release > button.
And when I say empty I'm talking specifically about normal moves. For special moves the "release" input is counted as a regular button press. But if you hold jab and try to release it in neutral nothing will come out, hence "empty"
Core-A
CoreA
Corea
Korea
Now everything makes sense in my life
I wish you and the rest of this community a great end of 2020. Thank you for making such fun content during times like this!
I have seen you commentate with CBM and I keep looking forward for more content from you! Keep up the AWESOMENESS G!
2:35
JDCR was not mashing.. he was Button-Surfing..
That "pause the video to get the timing" thing was great meta interaction!
Genuinely felt good to get it 1st try, but wasn't surprised to fail there after. Feels good once you get the rhythm though!
Yes a new video! Each episode brings me more appreciation for my favorite genre. Nicely done
glad to see my man Dolce in a Core-A video, doubly blessed
Dude, such good analytic info here. Thanks again
Didn't expect to see Dolce showing up in Core-A, happy as someone who plays IIDX 😌
i can't believe how many thing one can learn in just 5 minutes. Always looking forward for your videos.
UNICLR and some other anime fighters have a lot of focus on blockstrings, and in them, there will be wide enough gaps where you can throw out a move to counter-hit. However, it's a little difficult to get the move out at the right moment unless you mash.
For example, if an Enkidu does a blockstring on me, and I notice they always have one specific part they like to do in a string, I can mash 2A or 2B to get out of it and start a combo.
I love these analysis videos! This really gives me a better understanding of my favorite fighting games. Thank you, Core-A! :)
its weird to hear "pre-order" used so much instead of just "buffer" because im used to using buffer and never hear people use pre-order to talk about this.
Felt the exact same. Worked great for the lead-in example, but was weird to hear him keep using "pre-order" and even switch back and forth between using that and [input] "buffering".
(Is the use of pre-order more common to a specific fighting game's community, and/or I'm just unfamiliar with its use?)
It helps people like me who aren’t really familiar with fg terminology
@@ballaaaaaa That's why I thought it was so great for the segue! There's at least a handful of other comments saying the same, which shows it was an effective example.
Unfortunately, there's also a problem that arises when you start to muddle terminology like this. Learning/teaching the term as "pre-order" may cause confusion when communicating with players who ARE already more familiar with FG terminology (i.e. outside of this specific video's comment section). It just felt like he should've stuck with using "input buffer"/"buffering" after introducing the term (@ 3:12) instead of swapping back and forth -- he's back to "pre-order" @ 4:22, and then swaps immediately back and forth @ 4:47 & 4:48, etc.
Two comments worth of whining [from me] was more than this topic needed, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from, too?
@@Oranos2115 Thanks for the timestamps, duder.
The use of the term actually made me both subtly anxious about some sort of sponsorship segue in the middle of the video (these can be funny from some YTers to be fair but are in longer videos) and made me think about the types of people who may even screenshot these parts or share them with others even if no one prior to now has related it to a preorder window which it is only topical now because next gen is near maybe (this could have been part of the edit while using the term "buffer" as often as possible).
I don't think it is a miss for CoreA video though. He quickly covered the art of mashing in Mario Party with a popular streamer, a comparison between buffer systems for the same attack in two of the most popular games, cases where buffering does not apply (Normal attacks) and exceptions to allow more possible chances to get your attack (Negative Edge and plinking). The word use is just a little curious.
"pre-order" isn't used by anyone but this video. It's trying to explain the concept to people who aren't familiar with fight game terminology. "pre-order" makes sense of the concept "ask for it early and get it just as it's available."
When he said fastest masher my brain was thinking lud but deep down i knew lud wouldnt be in a core a video. I was proven wrong, my life is perfect
Link please
Excellent video! I always love breakdowns like this
Every Video gets better than the last, keep up the good work!
These videos are always so well thought out. Thank you.
Input buffer is a great way to make a fighting game accessible to a larger audience. More developers should implement it in their games.
Omega SF4 actually added an input buffer kind of like SF5's, but it only worked on offense (i.e. if you hit a button or do a special, your next input could be buffered). This meant that if you have something that's 0 on block (or even -1 sometimes), it becomes really easy to keep up a "fake" offense because your opponent has to perfectly time their defensive buttons while you can mash your string.
They also removed DP shortcuts which made it even harder to defend against this strategy
Best channel on youtube. Glad I found your stream on twitch too
As a newbie to fighting games, THANK YOU! Love your videos! Keep it up, you are a huge benefit to the community.
Never clicked so fast in my life
Same
Did you buffer your click right as the video is released?
I pre ordered my click
@@kiwirain1235 prinny: same as well dood!!
FADC to this video
Fun fact:
Ultimate has 2 layers of buffer. One being the 9 frame buffer mentioned in this video, but there is also a hold buffer, which means as long as an input is made while your character was inactive and you hold down that input until your character is active, the game will play the held inputs once your character is active. I don't understand why nintendo/namco did this, but it sucks and they need to fix it.
@@hotnuggies4208 It makes execution easier for normal players but harder for good players, ironically. It helps people that don't have good execution do things easier, but in the case of a pro, where their actions are very precise, the hold buffer actually makes it harder to do exactly what they intend to do. It's like the difference between a manual and automatic car. Automatic is easier to perform decently with but manual is the way to go if you want precision and control.
Should be optional. It's actually a great feature for newcomers.
I don't even want to know the amount of times I've died because I buffered airdodge offstage
@@Shabadaba1216 How does it make it more difficult for pros? The possibility of hold and input buffering doesn't make it more difficult to be precise, to the contrary; it enables you to be precise. Without it, it would be impossible to act frame perfectly in many scenarios.
It is humanly not feasible to time your inputs frame perfectly all the time, buffering is required for perfect execution/precision, not the other way around. It's a known thing that melee players can be faster depending on their form of the day because of this. On a good day, they're hitting more frame perfect or close to frame perfect inputs for movement while they miss frames on "bad" days. With a buffer system, they would be much more consistent in movement
@@meyes5671 And for pros, absolutely necessary for perfect execution
I clicked on this video about fighting games and then you mentioned gandhi pre-ordering a dragon punch
A great topic to adress later is the explanation and differences of the diverse types of tag teams, the ones with assists, the ones of "you died, then next comes" or the "changeable at any time and order", and how they impact the gameplay strategy, i don't know, i just didn't found anyone talking on the subject on youtube, and damn, i really want a "changeable at any time" type of tag team for smash bros, i mean, squad strike is cool (and it deserved better by being inluded online, but meh...maybe in the next game? who knows...) but i really want to see that type of gameplay implemented (and also, online e.e, if it isn't in online as well, peoeple will just let it pass by)
1:09 Wow, I never expected to see Ludwig in a Core-A video; that's really funny
This is why I like using the yellow C-stick when I can in melee. The C-stick gives an sends an input for every frame, making it much more likely to get frame perfect input by doing it slowly or wiggling it towards one way. It can be useful for using out of shield options, smash attacks, and aerials
Is this something I'm not aware of? I know you can hold buffer with c stick on shield but I didn't think you could hold buffer attacks and stuff.
@@djhooker8782 It's not really a true buffer. A buffer takes input from a set window and places them on the first frame actionable. However, there's a unique property with both the c-stick that is normally reserved for the analog stick/analog button. It has the ability to input every frame possible. The inputs aren't buffered, they bombard every possible frame and get ignored until the first frames of the actionable window appears, then gets ignored again during lag.
This has unusual implications. Flicking the c-stick fast makes timing tricky to get. But if you do it more slowly, the time window is incredibly easy. However, when you need to input more than one input per direction, then wiggle to one side
Due to how c-stick, shield, and wavedashing work together, this makes all sorts of defensive options in melee easier to execute
something interesting is that ultimate has a buffer of sorts for *releasing* shield. So for multihit moves, its very common to release the shield button while your shield is still getting hit, and the game will hold shield for you until the attack is over and drop it right after. Only problem is, for bowsers Up-B, there is a small delay in the middle of the multihit or something, because it actually triggers your shield to drop while the attack is still going on and you get hit. So for noobs and really anyone who isnt familiar with it, bowser gets a lot of free hits on that move.
This video reminded me of when not so long ago a friend came to my house and since we got nothing to do i said "wanna play some fighting games?" And so we did, the thing is, he doesn't have really much experience so he mainly button mash every single character he plays, the thing is, we played UNIST and he told me "the thing i don't like about fighting games is that you can spend lots of time but then some can just mash everything and you'll lose" so we fought and he won, however, to prove him wrong, i picked a character i know how to play (in that case, Chaos), and we fought again several time, most of the times i won, but there's the thing *most of the times* so, in conclusion, button mash works, but with enough skill you can still win most of the matches against a button masher
Another banger, great video. Thanks for the content.
Honestly, really good information here for a new fighting game player. Thank you.
GREAT JOB! I did it :-D Had to adjust for youtube's ridiculous 13 frames of lag but after figuring out the adjustment time I can do it once every 5 tries :-D
I love your vids man. Keep up the good work.
And I thought he was sponsored by GameStop and was creatively integrating the ad with his content.
Just want to get a contest going, how many times in a row can you get the frame perfect pause? I got 2...
Timestamp for contest: 3:24 (8 in a row, just rewind to try for more)
I got like 4 out of 10, none in a row, but I am not about to sit here and try for longer than that one attempt. 8 in a row is impressive. In fact I don't really believe you, but good job if true XD
@@no_nameyouknow I diddn't get 8, thats how many you can get with that timestamp without rewinding.
I just pre-ordered a back air
This is maybe the first time I've heard performing a command before your player can move as "preordering" instead of "buffering"
Great vid as always Gerald!
edit: i should have considered how authoritative this comment sounds, in reality i dont know a terrible amount about this subject so i shouldnt have written so confidently. there are some games that can detect inputs at higher rates than the current fps on screen. whether or not the programming actually accounts multiple presses in that manner is... i dont know, i wont say anything else one way or another because im still doing research on this subject.
1:38 this is actually inaccurate! assuming this visual is supposed to represent one button being mashed, it is literally impossible to press a button two frames in a row as shown on the 4th, 6th and 9th line down. the reason for this is that a game can only tell if a button is being activated or not. so even if you did physically press a button two consecutive frames in a row, the game will treat it as if you held the button down because from it's perspective, thats what you did.
so for example, in a 30 fps game the fastest you can mash a single button is only 15 times per frame, because the game must read that button as being un-pressed (no input) before you can press it again, or else it thinks you simply held it.
i also have a problem with 2:19 because almost every time at least some inputs will overlap (you press/let go of two buttons on the same frame) which wouldnt increase your chances. it would have been better to say you get UP TO 6 punch button inputs. in reality youd probably get 4 or 5 most of the time
It is possible to have input rate faster than framerate, though. If you think about a game like Ocarina of Time, it visually updates at 20fps but receives inputs at 60.
@@NrgSpoon In that case there's no reason to mention the frame rate and the video should talk about gamespeed.
its possible to get 2 inputs in a row which are functionally the same in games which have a button priority system by doing plinking (priority linking) e.g. in SF4 which has heavy > medium > light > select button (input display will show e.g. M, L+M for 2 mediums in a row)
in the SF4 example this is because if you press a second button the frame after having pressed the previous one (and still holding it) it'll count it as a simultaneous button press of both that button and the previous button (input leniency or kara inputs or etc)
likely what it was a reference to, probably not worth going on a tangent about it in video tho
input polling rate does not equal fps
@@Jako3334074 thats interesting! i wasnt aware of that! ill update my comment, thanks :D
About Negative Edge:
Wouldn't that input risk the attack coming out as an EX Attack in certain games, considering the button presses are so close together?
Oh hell it's a new Cora-A video!
I have a fun story.
Me and my class were going to Prague in highschool for school trip.
It was about the time when I wasn't really liked to the fullest by friend group I was supposed to be in the room with (4 of us).
They acted cool tho. On the first day one of my friends mentioned he brought PS1 with Tekken3, and there was TV in the room. We decided to connect it. We played few rounds for warmup, and then the tournament. During warmup I watched their plays and subconciously started understanding their moves.
I was not in shape, since last time I played any fighter was 8 years ago at that point. But it's Tekken, it can't be that different, right?
After all I spent days and days on Tekken 7 and NFS on PS2 during hot summers as a kid, and I was still an active PC gamer.
I went against one friend which I won, because he played poorly. Second round was between the other two where one guy was annoyed that his opponent was button smashing with Yoshimitsu. He managed to hit him few times, but in the end he was beaten by button smasher.
It was my turn against button smasher, I played King.
I was losing for the greater part of the round, until something clicked. I found his weakness. I knew where he would start spinning, which meant I could bait his spin, so I tried it. Got close, dodged, and sure enough, he spun. I immediately knew I can beat him, since no way devs would not make his hurtbox exposed during one part of that animation. I hit him, and sure enough, it registered hit.
I knew I was in the zone.
I proceeded to bait and punish like 10 of his attacks and won.
I didn't say anything, except talking with my friends.
He was salty, and complaining about how I onetrick (oh what an irony), and told me to try and play something else since we played best of 3.
I did, but he still picked the same character. I proceeded to wipe the floor with panda, which is immobile so it was harder to bait his hit. But I still managed it. This time, while asking him for a 3rd round, even tho I won, I told him "I changed my character, why don't you change yours now?" wishing he doesn't change it, so I could beat him once more. He didn't change character.
So I went back to King. Needless to say that he stormed out of the room after the game, and went fir the smoke.
I just looked at my friends who sat there, and smirked.
I was winner of that little two-bracket tournament, and my friends respected me more after that.
Dolce and IIDX in a Core-A gaming video? Awesome!
Apart from the superb content which is well-researched, organized, and narrated, let's all appreciate how Gerald's choices for ads aren't him whoring his channel out for sponsors. They're nice and practical products or services that he himself can get behind.
Man every time one of these videos drops I get really motivated to play the fighting games I love to watch then spend a week practicing before realizing I'm just not good enough to play fighting games.
*Button mashing works(sometimes)*
FGC: This is heresy!
Scrubs: It's free real estate
Kinda does for E. Honda tbh
@@nesmario123 ed too
“I heard that button mashing works sometimes.”
I think you meant heresy?
Love your content! You're one of the reasons I started making stuff for my channel.
Mashing but it's a choose your own adventure.
I love how many videos he's put out for the last 3 months I can tell u have been working bro keep up the good videos
I closed my eyes and trusted you when you said "you can press the space bar right -now-" and pressed space on the "now" part. And i got it!
I really like the metaphor that gerald does, are really easy to understand especially this is of the pre order
and realease for buffering is genius
As tekken player that don't remember the basic fundamentals from master raven input commands (regardless me trying git gud learning from the lab) plus pressing radoms bottoms I've the luckiest online wins ever with master raven, great times. 🙃👍
Also: *finally* an video about it.
I spent way too much time trying to nail the frame perfect pause. the "great job" message was cute
the fuck how did core-A get away with making a videogame in his own video
Many thanks to Ridge Wallet for sponsoring this video. This kind of support helps pay rent for our fighting game venue out here in Seoul, Korea. If you want 10% off a wallet, go to ridge.com/COREAGAMING
This blew my mind. And add placement at end of video gets thumbs up too.
Looking forward to the [Family Man Edition]
I'm still mentally stuck on how any real-world concept could be do confidently called something as blatantly shonen as, 'negative edge.'
I love this term so much, despite not really understanding what it means - even after the explination in this video.
there are weirder fg terms than that, like Tiger Knee referring to air inputs being triggered on the lowest height possible
An alternative for Negative Edge is "button up" if you prefer. It is more obvious what it means and the inverse is "button down" (which also has a positive edge counterpart).
Tiger Knee is a funny one for sure. I don't think there is an alternative besides saying "perform air special by starting the command on the ground to unleash it at the lowest height possible as you jump".
The source of the name is a command (12369) which isn't even used for Tiger Knee in modern games and is very rarely used for a specific special. That isn't even mentioning how some "Tiger Knee" use may not even need a command or needs another command entirely. (Or how Sagat didn't use it)
From what I've gathered online: Negative Edge occurs when you depress a button used for a super or combo input after holding/pressing the button down then inputting the joystick/directional portions.
So, in order to do the combo via Negative Edge, you press the button down, input the directions for the combo, then release the button.
I'm still a bit confused, so let me know what I got wrong
@@REXanadu You are generally on point.
Depressing a button/button up/Negative Edge is just a way of interacting with buttons. In some cases, this can perform a move alone (Balrog's Turn Punch is a special with no motion or charge, it can only be done by releasing).
We generally use it to refer to doing a motion or charge special or super if the game supports releasing buttons as a "press", but nothing stops games from using the concept differently since even Street Fighter has exceptions.
I wrote about it here: www.giantbomb.com/negative-edge/3015-1144/
If anything isn't clear, let me know.
the double tapping technique reminds me of mario 64 speedruns, where you can dive by pressing B with a certain amount of speed, and when you land from the dive you can either press A or B to roll out of the dive landing animation, and of course the fastest viable way to move is by diving and rolling out, and if you press a or b the first frame you land from the dive you will do what's called a Dustless rollout and you can increase the chances of getting one when you roll your index finger between A and B and thus move fast as fuc boi
Never thought I'd see a Core A Gaming/Ludwig crossover, especially not when talking about Lud's Mario Party record, but I'm here for it
Had a crappy day but then I saw there was a new Core-A video so it's actually a really good day
I was trying to explain a friend about what is input buffer in smash yesterday. The conparison of pre-ordering a game is really useful in understanding it.