Hicks should be in the pen as a long relief guy. He’ll backup guys like Harrison birdsong or ray when they have a short outing and then could make a spot start if anyone gets hurt
We’ll see if SF does the traditional thing, which is to give a spot to the highest paid guy (Hicks), after Webb, Ray, Verlander, & Harrison. I would do a hybrid 5 man rotation where Webb and Ray start consistently with Birdsong, Harrison, and Verlander taking a start off every 3 turns through the rotation and Hicks as the swingman.
6 man rotation goes a long way to helping young and old. Need to really find out more about Harrison, Birdsong, Roupp and Black this year. Given how much heavy lifting the bullpen did last year, going in with one less would be fine. There's also nothing saying they can't make a change back to a 5-man rotation down the line. I think if Buster went to Logan Webb and pitched the 6-man rotation idea to him for a season, he would be fine with it. Long-term, would need to get back to a 5-man rotation. I also think Buster's not done yet and expect more changes. Hicks needs to be in the bullpen and be a multi-innings specialist for when one of the starting pitchers gets rocked and exits early.
I don’t think Webb would like it, but they could also get creative and run a 6 man where Webb operates on normal schedule. Somebody just always gets an extra day of rest each time through the rotation.
@EYDShow That's true. Nothing stopping someone creating a 5 day rotation for say Webb and a 6-7 day rotation for everyone else and proceed with a 6 man rotation. If something like that keeps bullpen arm games non-existent, that goes a long way towards longevity and better overall in the W/L column.
Please please please kick hicks to the bullpen, having him Walker and Doval for high leverage innings would be so much more valuable than keeping Hicks in the 5th spot of rotation
Hicks arm wore down because he was in a three man rotation at one point. I look at Hicks as potentially being like Jason Schmidt who after struggling with Atlanta and Pittsburgh hit his stride as a Giant starter.
Hicks was never asked to carry too much in the first half. Even with the lack of SP around him he still threw normal pitch counts and innings as a SP. His arm wore down because he hadn’t thrown even 100 IP since ~ 2017 when he was in A ball.
There will always be injuries that you have to plan around, especially with arms. I'd say Hicks is in the bullpen...unless needed as a spot starter, where I think he'd be fine.
Exactly always need guys to start games. Luckily, SF has Beck, Roupp, Black and even Winn on the 40 man. Rather just have Hicks throwing 104 in relief.
Six man rotation makes the most sense. Leaves open the door if they pull a miracle and get Sasaki, who would benefit from it since the NPB uses a six man rotation. Also Ray has yet to return to form and who knows what we get from a 41-year-old Verlander.
I’m higher on Birdsong than Harrison personally, but Harrison seems like a lock based on how the team feels/talks about him. That’s why I think it comes down to Hicks and Birdsong for that 5th spot. Things can certainly change though.
@@EYDShow yeah Harrison that's it. I was so unimpressed I couldn't even remember his name picture. It's been proven that you need like eight starting pitchers
Funny thing is a couple tweaks and I think Harrison could reach the hype and be pretty dominant. Needs to get a little stronger so he can get the velo back up to 94-95 and then throw that slurve in the garbage for a sharper slider. Command would need to improve at least some as well.
However the rotation shakes out, there's no excuses for letting guys get gassed at any point next year. It would be a waste of their pitching depth if there isn't a clear plan to keep everyone fresh throughout the season. Some sort of "hybrid" setup where they get guys an extra day of rest here and there could go a long way across 162.
Biggest problem I see is if we try to keep everyone “fresh” all year, they’ll never grow into being able to handle the necessary innings. Unless they just plan to run a 6 man rotation forever. We have to build these guys up a bit and push their limits so they aren’t forever stuck at 130-140 innings. That’s said they can’t try to jump them 40 innings in a season either so they may have to skip the occasional starts.
I'd love to see Birdsong start with SF but the problem is the promise to Hicks to start. Maybe start with Hicks, letting Birdsong build up in AAA, and when Hicks realizes again that his arm becomes rubber after 10 starts, bring Birdsong up and let Hicks relieve the rest of the way.
The begin the season on the road against Cincinnati so with Ray and Verlander you’re going to preserve them during spring training and let them work early season.
Hicks can throw 105 as a relief pitcher. Thats scaled back to low to mid 90s as a starter. Thats a complete waste. At best his health would allow to pitch 5 innings as a #5 starter. They’re better off developing their young starters.
I don’t think Birdsong *should* be starting in AAA, but I’d definitely rather he be there than the bullpen. He should be in the rotation over Hicks IMO
@@EYDShowI’m thinking in order to have a useful bullpen the whole season we need between 900 to 1,000 innings of starting pitching. We get there by having controllable starters who are pitching as starters and have minor league moves building up there arms in Sacramento until inevitably you need them. I’m thinking primarily it’s going to be Birdsong, Rupp and Black.
how about Hicks in pen, Webb every 5 games, but when there are 6 straight days with games try to start Hicks for the 6th day (unless that's a Webb start) to give everyone young / old / recovering / converting2SP at least 5 days off between starts every start?
Definitely an outside the box way to do it. I will say if they have Hicks in the pen then Beck or Roupp would probably be better equipped to eat up 4-5 innings.
I've mostly been high on Harrison throughout his young career but I recently noticed all of his pitches are below average according to Stuff+ models, which obviously is not preferable. Not sure how much to read into that measure though
I haven’t looked into that one much to be honest. With the dip in velo (especially late in the year when he was dealing with some injuries) it wouldn’t shock me if the FB carries a negative value there, but on baseball savant it was still measured as one of the best FB in baseball. Hopefully he can build up some strength and get it back to 94-95 regularly. Other than that he needs to trash the slurve and go to a sharper slider.
Definitely agree on moving to a sharper slider, that is what essentially every good lefty starter in the MLB leans on - Sale, Ragans are great examples. Sale is a particularly good model for Harrison because his 4sm fastball has a very similar movement profile. I noticed Sale throws a sinker in addition to the 4sm too, probably to keep guys more honest on that 4sm, which is genius. Ragans does the same with his cutter.
So... there was this guy nicknamed the horse... he was a lot like Logan Webb, his name was Matt Cain and he routinely pitched 200 innings (or very close) and you know what happened to him, his arm jus fell apart at about age 32-33... that is what happens when you don't limit the innings that a pitcher pitches to something a bit more reasonable... Webb will be done by the time he's 33 if the Giants don't start limiting his inning whether Webb likes it or not...
I don't think Birdsong needs to go anywhere, Verlander will probably need a few spot starts from Birdsong and Roupp. Birdsong needs some time in AAA anyways to work on his Fastball tunneling. I'd rather see Black go in a trade with someone to find us another LH Bat. If they go into 2025 with this line up(they need one more bat) I'd be shocked.
How do you think they got Hicks? If you don't want to start him, then trade him...im sure he doesnt want to be here if he's not starting....and I'd say 2 Giants pitchers at best can go 6.....it would be advantageous to go 6 man and try to get these soft pitchers to go harder with an extra days rest
I could live with .500 if we have more young players establish themselves as players to build around going forward. Can’t if we’re just going to watch guys like Yaz and Wade take the majority of the ABs at those spots while we’re completely mid.
Like we have said, one of the kids has to step up and be a guy. Hopefully Birdsong or Harrison is just undeniable and forces the issue. What’s likely to happen is somebody gets hurt and we see all of em. But I agree, don’t put Birdsong in the pen. That does nothing for his development. Ironically, I guarantee they want Birdsong at the knee of Verlander as long as possible. Simple solution, start whoever has the worse spring between Harrison and Birdsong in Sac, and then when Hicks wears out in May, bring him up? Rather just move Hicks to the pen. But I respect Buster honoring the “starter” agreement. Where does Rhoup fit in?
Hicks should be in the pen as a long relief guy. He’ll backup guys like Harrison birdsong or ray when they have a short outing and then could make a spot start if anyone gets hurt
Five man rotation, Hicks in the bullpen.
We’ll see if SF does the traditional thing, which is to give a spot to the highest paid guy (Hicks), after Webb, Ray, Verlander, & Harrison. I would do a hybrid 5 man rotation where Webb and Ray start consistently with Birdsong, Harrison, and Verlander taking a start off every 3 turns through the rotation and Hicks as the swingman.
6 man rotation goes a long way to helping young and old. Need to really find out more about Harrison, Birdsong, Roupp and Black this year. Given how much heavy lifting the bullpen did last year, going in with one less would be fine. There's also nothing saying they can't make a change back to a 5-man rotation down the line. I think if Buster went to Logan Webb and pitched the 6-man rotation idea to him for a season, he would be fine with it. Long-term, would need to get back to a 5-man rotation. I also think Buster's not done yet and expect more changes.
Hicks needs to be in the bullpen and be a multi-innings specialist for when one of the starting pitchers gets rocked and exits early.
I don’t think Webb would like it, but they could also get creative and run a 6 man where Webb operates on normal schedule. Somebody just always gets an extra day of rest each time through the rotation.
@EYDShow That's true. Nothing stopping someone creating a 5 day rotation for say Webb and a 6-7 day rotation for everyone else and proceed with a 6 man rotation. If something like that keeps bullpen arm games non-existent, that goes a long way towards longevity and better overall in the W/L column.
Please please please kick hicks to the bullpen, having him Walker and Doval for high leverage innings would be so much more valuable than keeping Hicks in the 5th spot of rotation
It’s a shame they’re wasting his 105 fastball by scaling it back as a starter
Doval is trash. Kick him to AAA or trade him.
Hicks arm wore down because he was in a three man rotation at one point. I look at Hicks as potentially being like Jason Schmidt who after struggling with Atlanta and Pittsburgh hit his stride as a Giant starter.
Hicks was never asked to carry too much in the first half. Even with the lack of SP around him he still threw normal pitch counts and innings as a SP. His arm wore down because he hadn’t thrown even 100 IP since ~ 2017 when he was in A ball.
There will always be injuries that you have to plan around, especially with arms. I'd say Hicks is in the bullpen...unless needed as a spot starter, where I think he'd be fine.
Exactly always need guys to start games. Luckily, SF has Beck, Roupp, Black and even Winn on the 40 man. Rather just have Hicks throwing 104 in relief.
Six man rotation makes the most sense. Leaves open the door if they pull a miracle and get Sasaki, who would benefit from it since the NPB uses a six man rotation. Also Ray has yet to return to form and who knows what we get from a 41-year-old Verlander.
I really hope we keep birdsong
Agree he has very high potential and could be a real bright spot this season IMO
I was more impressed with Birdsong than I was with with the left-handed guy
I’m higher on Birdsong than Harrison personally, but Harrison seems like a lock based on how the team feels/talks about him. That’s why I think it comes down to Hicks and Birdsong for that 5th spot. Things can certainly change though.
@@EYDShow yeah Harrison that's it. I was so unimpressed I couldn't even remember his name picture. It's been proven that you need like eight starting pitchers
Funny thing is a couple tweaks and I think Harrison could reach the hype and be pretty dominant. Needs to get a little stronger so he can get the velo back up to 94-95 and then throw that slurve in the garbage for a sharper slider. Command would need to improve at least some as well.
However the rotation shakes out, there's no excuses for letting guys get gassed at any point next year. It would be a waste of their pitching depth if there isn't a clear plan to keep everyone fresh throughout the season. Some sort of "hybrid" setup where they get guys an extra day of rest here and there could go a long way across 162.
Biggest problem I see is if we try to keep everyone “fresh” all year, they’ll never grow into being able to handle the necessary innings. Unless they just plan to run a 6 man rotation forever. We have to build these guys up a bit and push their limits so they aren’t forever stuck at 130-140 innings. That’s said they can’t try to jump them 40 innings in a season either so they may have to skip the occasional starts.
I'd love to see Birdsong start with SF but the problem is the promise to Hicks to start. Maybe start with Hicks, letting Birdsong build up in AAA, and when Hicks realizes again that his arm becomes rubber after 10 starts, bring Birdsong up and let Hicks relieve the rest of the way.
If hicks goes to the pen the giants bullpen would be filthy. Rodgers bothers, Roupe, Walker, Rodriguez, Hicks and Doval
Bivens!
I hope they go with birdsong and package Harrison in a deal
The begin the season on the road against Cincinnati so with Ray and Verlander you’re going to preserve them during spring training and let them work early season.
Hicks can throw 105 as a relief pitcher. Thats scaled back to low to mid 90s as a starter. Thats a complete waste. At best his health would allow to pitch 5 innings as a #5 starter. They’re better off developing their young starters.
Birdsong should be starting at Triple A along with Rupp. You’ll need additional starting pitching by June or July
I don’t think Birdsong *should* be starting in AAA, but I’d definitely rather he be there than the bullpen. He should be in the rotation over Hicks IMO
@@EYDShowI’m thinking in order to have a useful bullpen the whole season we need between 900 to 1,000 innings of starting pitching. We get there by having controllable starters who are pitching as starters and have minor league moves building up there arms in Sacramento until inevitably you need them. I’m thinking primarily it’s going to be Birdsong, Rupp and Black.
I doubt there is an odd man out because realistically the Giants are looking for 100 to 120 innings out of Verlander. Injuries are inevitable
how about Hicks in pen, Webb every 5 games, but when there are 6 straight days with games try to start Hicks for the 6th day (unless that's a Webb start) to give everyone young / old / recovering / converting2SP at least 5 days off between starts every start?
Definitely an outside the box way to do it. I will say if they have Hicks in the pen then Beck or Roupp would probably be better equipped to eat up 4-5 innings.
I've mostly been high on Harrison throughout his young career but I recently noticed all of his pitches are below average according to Stuff+ models, which obviously is not preferable. Not sure how much to read into that measure though
I haven’t looked into that one much to be honest. With the dip in velo (especially late in the year when he was dealing with some injuries) it wouldn’t shock me if the FB carries a negative value there, but on baseball savant it was still measured as one of the best FB in baseball. Hopefully he can build up some strength and get it back to 94-95 regularly. Other than that he needs to trash the slurve and go to a sharper slider.
Definitely agree on moving to a sharper slider, that is what essentially every good lefty starter in the MLB leans on - Sale, Ragans are great examples. Sale is a particularly good model for Harrison because his 4sm fastball has a very similar movement profile. I noticed Sale throws a sinker in addition to the 4sm too, probably to keep guys more honest on that 4sm, which is genius. Ragans does the same with his cutter.
So... there was this guy nicknamed the horse... he was a lot like Logan Webb, his name was Matt Cain and he routinely pitched 200 innings (or very close) and you know what happened to him, his arm jus fell apart at about age 32-33... that is what happens when you don't limit the innings that a pitcher pitches to something a bit more reasonable... Webb will be done by the time he's 33 if the Giants don't start limiting his inning whether Webb likes it or not...
I don't think Birdsong needs to go anywhere, Verlander will probably need a few spot starts from Birdsong and Roupp. Birdsong needs some time in AAA anyways to work on his Fastball tunneling. I'd rather see Black go in a trade with someone to find us another LH Bat. If they go into 2025 with this line up(they need one more bat) I'd be shocked.
Verlander wont be able to pitch all season long. Not at the capacity of what will be expected. We still might get Roki? What then if that happens?
How do you think they got Hicks? If you don't want to start him, then trade him...im sure he doesnt want to be here if he's not starting....and I'd say 2 Giants pitchers at best can go 6.....it would be advantageous to go 6 man and try to get these soft pitchers to go harder with an extra days rest
I’d trade him with pleasure in that case
another .500 season
I could live with .500 if we have more young players establish themselves as players to build around going forward. Can’t if we’re just going to watch guys like Yaz and Wade take the majority of the ABs at those spots while we’re completely mid.
Like we have said, one of the kids has to step up and be a guy. Hopefully Birdsong or Harrison is just undeniable and forces the issue.
What’s likely to happen is somebody gets hurt and we see all of em. But I agree, don’t put Birdsong in the pen. That does nothing for his development. Ironically, I guarantee they want Birdsong at the knee of Verlander as long as possible.
Simple solution, start whoever has the worse spring between Harrison and Birdsong in Sac, and then when Hicks wears out in May, bring him up?
Rather just move Hicks to the pen. But I respect Buster honoring the “starter” agreement. Where does Rhoup fit in?