Why Couldn't Men go to Valinor? Middle-earth Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2022
- Valinor was the land of the Valar, Maiar and Elves, yet Men could not go there. This video explores the reasons why Men could not go to the Undying Lands. Thank you all so much for watching, let me know what you think about this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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Hey everyone! Thanks for watching! I want to clarify that going to Valinor does not make one immortal. This is what would make it extremely difficult for mortals, as others in that land would be deathless, yet they would still be subject to it.
Would've been great to see it though 😊
Did Amandil make it to Tol Eressea? Is Tuor truly numbered among the Firstborn? These would have been great questions for Glorfindel. He would for sure know about Tuor and might know the fate of Amandil. My reading of those events has always been that they are best kept mysterious and legendary. As for Frodo and Co., I assume they all live on Tol Eressea. I do think Olorin would take Frodo on a tour of Aman for high fives and for convalescence in OG Lorien, but my best guess is that Frodo spent his remaining years on the Lonely Island. This is probably where the Fellowship was briefly reunited in part when Sam, Gimli and Legolas showed up. I doubt that any of the mortals lived even 100 years in the West. But, those years were full of healing, rest, and love. Lives are best measured in how the years allotted to a person are spent rather than the number of years they are given to live.
East answer to all of this. Eru can do and allow what he likes.
Its said in the Silmarillion as well that mortal men in the undying lands would have died all the faster because of the intense energy of the undying lands.
But there is another weird side-note. The numenoreans who actually landed and camped in Vanlinor were swallowed up by the earth and were somehow trapped undying there until the end of the world. Their king ironically did become immortal. But not in a good way.
As far as Frodo and Sam go, exposure to the ring made them not quite mortal anymore. Look at Gollum who was basically immortal. They probably had a fate apart.
Gimli is the most complex case because he had no special reason to be in the west. He might have made it to Tol Eressea and simply died after a short while.
The Silmarillion also makes it clear in the Numenor material that what is specifically forbidden is mortals going back and forth to the undying lands. A few might be allowed to go to Tol Eressea to die there.
Hi, this might be a topic for a whole video but are the gods and monsters of the Simarillion and the like really meant to be real in the lore? Or are they more meant to be the myths of this very ancient world, on way we have stories about Troy, a real battle and war that became the stuff of legend.
I have a vague memory of Tolkien not actually intending to publish the Simarillion and unfinished tales are called that for a reason.
Also the Easterlings, Haradrim, dwarves and the like all seem to have their own cultures and gods which are quite different...
Elves were giving cheat codes when they were creating their characters, man had to earn every single point and ended up fighting, dying and eventually defeating Morgoth and got.. a bit longer lifespans as a thanks. When you think about it, men kinda had a right to be pissed off.
Yeah men are always the ones getting things done, while everybody else just sits around waiting for Eru to magically save them. And what do men get out of doing all the work? Nothing. I guess you could say men are to the "good" valar what orcs are to Morgoth (disposable and manipulable slaves).
Only if you consider death to be a bad thing, which Eru doesn't (his gift, moving beyond Arda, unlike the "stuck" Elves).
@@gagaplexstill BS, better to live as an elf for thousands of years on Valinor with unimaginable beauty and cease to exist when the world ends so they don't have to live and suffer than to live for not longer than a hundred years and being promised with an afterlife BS.
@@GuyChooothe thing is we don’t know where men go if they go to where eru lives and man lives with him all eternity if that is the case then it is a gift
Arwen: "As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to men, it is bitter to receive." Aragorn: "In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." --The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, LOTR, Appendix A
I think the main reason why men were forbidden was a potential lust for the things that were not theirs to have. Of course not all men would have such lusts. Like Aragorn for example. I think Aragorn could’ve been invited to go to the undying lands just fine. The problem is that he was still mortal and would eventually die which was the reason Arwen chose mortality in the first place. Hence, there was no reason for Aragorn to go there.
Also, I don’t think that there was any physical reason why men could not live in Valinor. I don’t think they would’ve been eventually killed or something by the beauty or brightness of it. Otherwise Legolas would never have invited Gimli. However I think that after a long time men would probably have grown tired of the lack of change just as the elves grew tired of constant change.
Elves had just as big a problem of lusting after things that weren't there's. So I don't find that to be a good enough reason. That one part at least
Except… Gimli was very old when he went to Valinor with Legolas. All he wanted was to see and speak to Galadriel, whom he loved, one last time before he died. And the Valar granted his wish, but I don’t believe Gimli would have lived very long afterwards.
As for the hobbits, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam, I believe that only Frodo would have lived a long life in Valinor. Bilbo was extremely old when he went there, and he probably lived only a short time after his arrival. Sam was also very old by the time he went there, so he would have gone just to see Frodo one last time before he died.
@@timonsolus Tolkien wrote about this. The Fea and Hroa. The spirit and body..The fate of men is a short life in Arda then something unknown even to the Valar. But he said of men going there the spirit would not remain and would be called away upon the end of it's time in Arda..so you would in effect have lots of mindless automata running around..Zombies..houses for spirits..and these Hroa would be wide open to be possessed. Melkor might like that..the Valar would hate it..it would be evil.
So you think essentially that humans are inevitably doomed to hell because heaven would be to boring so eternal suffering is better?
@@robinthehood9720
Honestly I was just asking the OP and any of the other commenters since his argument is that humans would get bored if they ever lived eternally in any way, shape or form in bliss.
I wonder how many Numenorean fishermen accidentally ended up in Valinor after being blown off course by a storm.
They moved to Australia
im guessing before reaching valinor another storm would have changed their course away from valinor
Zero. You forget who controls the storms in the oceans of Arda. No one is going to accidentally get washed up on Tol Eressea or Tirion on Túna. If it should happen at all, it will be an intentional thing, not an accident.
None until the valar started to get upset at the Numenoreans. It states in Akallabêth that no ships of Numenor founded in rough seas until that time, so
I think we can assume that while fishing Numenorean vessels experienced optimal conditions!
I doubt Ulmo would have allowed that to happen.
How is this dude still producing the best lotr content around?
He's my go to, I just finished Silmarillion, Hobbit and Fellowship. And his videos have helped me a ton.
The G O A T of LOTR
All others have fallen to the darkness.
I love Men of the West but also In Deep Geek is incredible
Simple, he reads tolkien gateway and in many cases recites certain pages VERfuckingBATIM.
There's also the part where it is said that Eru had possibly created another realm for men alone. After they die their souls temporarily go to the halls of Mandos and then move on. To where their souls go, no one but Eru knows. Eru possibly created another world for men to dwell in in immortality with himself taking care of them.
Only the bravest souls have a mortal existence.
Or they could just join him directly in the timeless halls. Elves live forever with the Ainur of Arda, and Men live forever with the other Ainur and in the presence of Eru himself.
@@manicdgr And just imagine how much jealousy and resentment that could fester in the eyes and hearts of Ainur bound to Arda unable to leave or bask in the presence of Eru.
I would still rather be an elf.🤔
@@Geraduss I mean, they chose it. They chose to go down to Arda, becoming kings in the world that is.
Personally, I do think that Tuor was allowed to live in Valinor with Idril. Some fans bought a common thread of how elf/man couples live and die similar fates. Beren and Luthien lived and died as mortals, Aragorn and Arwen lived and died as mortals, but if Tuor died and Idril lived, there's a disconnect. Though this may seem unfair and not great, I feel like Tuor makes a better exception to become immortal.
Tuor was a man who lived among elves most of his life, his father Huor lived in Gondolin, and he was among the Edain, houses of men that served elves. Ulmo, a Valar, himself chose to tell Tuor a warning message to Gondolin while Beren and Aragorn were only able to meet Maiar, Melian and Olorin (Gandalf) respectively. Tuor was able to marry Idril and bear the savior of men and elves, Earendil. So honestly, though this is unfair to both Beren and Aragorn along with Luthien and Arwen, I'd say that Tuor still has a fair claim to be immortal.
Also, it says that Eru Illuvatar himself chose to give Tuor his blessing. Beren and Aragorn were raised by men but Tuor had his whole life surrounded by elves, making him to me more elf in nature than man. So, this is run on, but I feel that because Tuor became closest of elf friends to elf, Eru Illuvatar decided to make an exception. After all, he's God, so i'm sure that he gets to say the final fates of his children. Plus, it spices the story up nicely to have only one man be an elf after a life of being one of the best, if not the closest, elf friend to elf.
P.S. I also bet Ulmo had a say in this too, being the Vala that gave Tuor a message himself.
P.S.S. in the light that Earendil was there in Valinor and no mention of Tuor was made, I propose a possiblity that Tuor and Idril were laid to sleep until Earendil came to Valinor. Then, afterwards, Tuor was made Elf to be with his family again when Earendil chose to be an elf. That way, Earendil doesn't feel like too much of an outcast as being originally man.
I would disagree with the elf-friend part.
He is not elf-friend, he is elf-family.
The only family he really had were elves and nothing else.
And elves everywhere reciprocated.
And you don't break family if you are good.
@@painlord2k . You're right.
that just proves my point even more
It's common sense. Unlike men who are inhabitants of the world, elves and dwarves are extensions of the world and bound to its fate.
The freedom to choose your own destiny contradicts with the immortality of the elves and Valinor.
Not only that but it also makes the Elves cringe and become emo to see dying things, or worse, things in nature changed which is what Men do.
I am curious: In which sense were the elves unable to choose their own destiny compared to humans? I just have a hard time imagining it.😅 Did Eru have a "script" for every single elf? Were their actions in life inevitable or?
Would be nice if someone could explain that
I don't in any way see how that could be considered 'common sense'.
Nothing good can come from mortals living in a place where nothing dies. I think that when Men die, their spirits escape into the Ea where they are free to explore creation and can enter within the timeless halls visiting the Ainur and their creator Eru, whom he made in his image.
Even when those mortal exceptions (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Gimli) were allowed to enter Valinor, a mortal REMAINS mortal because that's how they were built. Maybe the healing powers of Valinor could heal the wounds caused by the Ring and allow them to pass in peace.
I also read somewhere (most likely not canon) that while a mortal remains mortal in Valinor, the privilege that the Valar gave to Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli is that they are allowed to CHOOSE when they die, because even if the healing powers of Valinor extended their lives further, eventually all mortals WILL feel weary with life and WANT to depart from this mortal coil. That's how they were "designed" by Eru Illuvatar. The only good thing is that they get to choose to leave it in their own terms, whereas Elves are stuck in Arda even if they wanted to leave. Even if an Elf kills him/herself, they will still find themselves stuck in Mandos' Halls until the Dagor Dagorath. Frodo and co will be enjoying the Gift of Men in its ultimate form.
I agree. I read that in the HoME series somewhere
I agree, even if the Valar tried to extend their lifespan, they could still not take away the gift of Eru to mortals unless, Eru himself would account these beings’ lives as equal to that of the first born then their fates might change.
I totally agree with you. For those mortals mentioned specifically as being allowed entrance to Valinor, it was always my assumption that they dwelt on Eressea, which was a hybrid land of sorts. In one part, a land mass within the spheres of Valinor, while on the other hand having been part of Middle Earth and had been utilized as a "ferry boat" to bring the Elvish hosts to Valinor. As such it wasnt "attached" to the main continental mass but laid off of its shores to the east. Just my thoughts, but like you I see those exceptions to be allowed to dwell there, as not having become immortal as that would go against the wishes and designs of Eru.. Additionally, with Eressea being that hybrid land, those mortals wouldn't "burn out" like a moth to a light, but live out their days in peace, in a land which had many aspects of both paradise and a mortal world.
Tbh being an elf isn't bad. Living for thousands of years may be weary but at least you don't have to exist anymore after dagor dagorath and you experienced the fantasy world for thousands of years. After dagor dagorath, you don't feel pain and suffering anymore while men on the other hand 😂, they still exist.
The doom of Men did not apply to Tuor, first among men to step foot in Valinor and first to be accepted alone among men as the exception to the rule, truly unique as Tolkien created this situation...there is always an exception to the rules, and for Tolkien Tuor embodied this, who, among all men was most akin to the elves. Likewise, Tuor's fate is bound in the marriage to his wife to be the first union of man and elf where the man chose the route of his wife's kindred, here we see the juxtaposition Tolkien gives compared to Tuor's descendants, Aragorn and Arwen in which she chooses the fate of men in wedding Aragorn. Synonymous with Lúthien's decision to join Beren once more after their deaths and live for a time with him before accepting the 'gift' of Men. Truly poetic. As Tolkien states, "the cases of Lúthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.” --Letter 153. The Valar had no power over their fates and had to appeal to Ilúvatar for intercession. But uniquely, Tuor also was singular among Men to be approached by Ulmo, showing a poignancy to his fate being interwoven with the immortal from the start of his journey. As his life shows, Tuor was in all but birth an elf, raised by elves, not knowing his mortal kin, married into High Elven family and taking up leadership among them, being counted as one of them in Gondolin...the only interaction he had with Men was under the slavery of Morgoth's peons. It's no wonder he would feel and be thought of as an elf in the end. 🙂 This by no means is lore breaking, and is indeed canon according to Tolkien. It creates a wonderful tapestry of the early peoples of Arda and how the 1st and 2nd born are intertwined despite their differences as being ultimately in the hands of Ilúvatar, who sees through the hearts and spirits of all.
The map to Valinor was with the Dark Elves. And they can't find them in Middle-Earth anymore. Get better Yoystan. Thanks for posting through the virus.
What made them dark elves was it their physical features and personalities or were they involved in dark magic?
@@rc59191 it was whether they lived in the light of the Two Trees.
the Eldar, High Elves, or Light Elves were elves who lived in the light of the two trees of Valinor.
The Twilight Elves, the Sindar, were elves who began the great journey to Valinor in Aman, but didn’t actually get there.
The Dark Elves or the Avari were elves who refused to go to Valinor, never saw the light of the Two Trees, and lived in darkness under the stars until the creation of the sun and the moon.
@@rc59191 they never traveled across the sea like the Silvan Elves but followed a different path than the Nolder Elves in philosophy. Eol was a dark elf. There are dark or petty dwarves too. Lesser mentioned.
@@deriznohappehquite perfect. Thanks John D
@@shadowofchaos8932 Actually Eol was a Silvan and an avari born elf.
I believe the reason is thus: Men represent chaos. Just as Elves represent order. I simply believe that if Men were permitted to go to Valinor, then self-destruction would occur. For the Men, the Elves, Valinor, even the Valar.
Though it should be noted that Dwarves were never banned from Valinor. They simply never tried to go because of their intense fear of the sea. It was even said that while the Elves believed that Dwarves came from stone and returned to stone upon death... The Dwarves believed that Mahal (Aule) asked Mandos to prepare a separate hall for the Dwarves. Where they too would reside until the ending and remaking of the world, aiding their father in that task. A belief that, I daresay, was told to the Seven Fathers who in turn told their clans upon reincarnation.
Mahal in my language means something else,'mansion or palace'.'In Tamil we call our loved one's with beautiful words and sound. Here is how we call our daughters in Tamil. We call them "MAGHAL".
Sadly men were not agents of chaos. In fact they arrived long after chaos already took hold of middle earth. They kind of inherited it from the Elves and Morgoths' battles honestly so that explanation like many others makes no sense. Basically the Valar were pretty shitty to men and only one of them ever even paid the dwarves any attention at all.........less than one even noted the existence of the hobbits. They were like parents who favour one child and complain when the others act out. Sure Morgoth was the greatest of them and powerful enough to give them a hard time but Sauron was not.........they could have ended him easily enough especially by the lord of the rings era when even Sauron was only a shadow of what he once was. They did very little and it was almost pointless for them to be a part of the world at all by that point. They just locked themselves up in their gated community and pretended everything was just fine lol.
Men go to a place that Elves and the Valar do not even know. In my head canon, I like to think that Illuvatar essentially has their version of Heaven or Valhalla (or both) set aside for them. He allowed his lesser gods to essentially care for and nurture his first children and he wants to nurture his second born, who can only be with him if they die a complete death in body.
That stands to reason as Tolkien was a devout Catholic and said in some letters that Eru is basically an alternate take on God and not a different being.
This. Tolkien was Catholic, but he was also partly creating a mythology for England of beginning times. Valhalla and Heaven would have been in his thoughts. And would make a lot of sense. But he would have left it deliberately vague for just those reasons.
As a first child... oof
This is why death is called The Gift of Men.
@@Trowa71 That is a major theme of the books. Elves don't understand the why but do understand that it is a gift. As Tolkien was Catholic, I've always felt that in giving mankind the extreme kind of free will, Eru left them vulnerable to temptations more so than the elves, so he made the time they spent under the likely temptations lesser. Elves go to the Halls of Mandos upon dying, sometimes to stay and sometimes to be reborn and sometimes to remain in the Halls. The elves do not know what happens to men after death, and no man has any knowledge of it either, which is how men became jealous of Elves, and one of the reasons Numenor fell. Also how the nine kings of men were duped into taking the rings.
I agree with most points you make Master Yoystan. Although I do think that the Valar can easily perceive the hearts and minds of all races easily and that with the exception of Ar-Pharazon and his men, all others who came to Valinor had no evil in their hearts, ill will or even wished to claim immortality. First with Tuor and Idril, that Ulmo could've wished for the grace of the Elves to be given to Tuor for completing the task Ulmo (a just reward from a Vala) set him out to do and for the love of his wife Idril to be with her. When Earandil came to Valinor the Valar knew straight away he was there to justly save all the free races of Middle Earth from Morgoth, but that Earandil would've chosen the fate of Men and only chose the fate of the Elves for the sake of his wife. As for the Men of Numenor it was the Valar who gave them the Island of Numenor and gave the Men longer lives as for their reward of fighting against Morgoth. As for Amandil when he set out for Valinor, yes it wasn't for the sake of the world, but still for the sake of his descendants to not perish for the folly of others, to even warn the Valar of such a threat and to even reveal that it was indeed Sauron who was responsible for such a catastrophe. We will never know what really happened to Amandil and his servants, but what we can assume is that he was able to plead to the Valar who saved his descendants from the downfall of Numenor thanks to a mighty wind that came from the west and pushed the boats to Middle Earth. I'd like to think that Amandil and his servants spent their last days in Valinor peacefully. As for Frodo and Bilbo, they bore the One Ring of Power which corrupted them to their very being and for destroying the Ring and again allowing them to Valinor to finally be at peace and die peacefully. Sam also bore the Ring, but was never fully corrupted, it might've just been a way for him to see Frodo again before dying. As for Gimli it was for the sake of his friendship with Legolas and to once again see Galadriel and it was suggested that Galadriel asked for a pardon to Gimli.
pardon for being born different...
I agree with you except want to point out one thing-the Valar can only sense the hearts and minds of the sentient races.
“All minds are "equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength." A mind can only be communicated to with ósanwe if it is open (sanwe-latya, "thought opening, telepathy"). Any mind can be willed closed, and this is a barrier that cannot be overcome by anything or anyone, not even Melkor applying all his power and will on a mind could do so.”
This applies to knowing someone’s true intentions, as well. They may ask telepathically, and you may deny them entrance.
Note that this does not apply to Eru and no mind may be closed to him, although they are free to choose to disregard his message
It has been suggested that the concept of Valinor is mainly based on the legend of Faery of western mythology, as indicated by the hobbitish name.
Furthermore, it seems to have been based on the ghost and heavenly islands of ancient and medieval legends: Avalon, Hy Brasil, the Blessed Isles, the Elysian Fields, were mythical lands envisioned by the ancient peoples to be far into the western ocean. The legend somehow survived the Middle-Ages with Saint Brendan's Island.
So my thoughts: It is definitely possible that Tuor could have been adjudged as one of the Noldor. However, at that time the Noldor were still under the Ban. However Ulmo would be able to guide him to Valinor. And we see in the Downfall that Eru could reach into Arda and change it. Could he have altered Tuor to make him immortal? I think that if he arrived in Valinor, Ulmo through Manwe would have given Tuor the Grace to live there, but we hear no record of Tuor ever reuniting with Earendil when he arrived. I think he spent many years living in bliss, then willingly went to the Halls of Mandos when his time came. As far as Amandil? I don't think he made it, but his message and plea did. Otherwise Elendil and his sons would also have perished in the Downfall. After the Ban was lifted, the farsighted in Numenor could see Tol Eressea. So it was indeed possible to go there. In fact, isn't there a thing in the Akallabeth where the messangers to Tat-Minastir pretty much said that Men would wither like moths in a flame if they went to Aman? As far as the Hobbits and Gimli, Manwe and Varda gave them the grace to go, and they certainly would have been warmly welcomed by the Valar for their deeds, but Bilbo would go first to Mandos, and Frodo and Sam would go together after they were reunited. Gimli would see and speak with Galadriel before he went to be with his ancestors.
I think Gimli also would've been specially invited to Aule's dwelling. I can imagine both of them being very excited to see each other. A creator meeting his (sort of) creation after so long of having to watch them from afar. Heck, I can even see Gimli presenting his work of Galadriel's hair inset into a jewel and Aule loving it as an example of the craftmanship of his people.
@@jalarasstudios414 I like that!
The dwarves believed Aule whom they call Mahal the maker gathered them into separate halls to await the Final Battle and to assist him in remaking the world after Morgoth final defeat. Perhaps Eru does the same for the spirits of Men?
I believe Tuor lives in Valinor still. Bilbo gets the information from the library of Elrond and after the lifting of ban many elves and others came to middle earth like Glorfindel and Wizards so Elrond probably know that and updated his library.
None of the Valar, or any of the Ainur, have the power to change the nature of the Children of Iluvatar. Only Iluvatar himself can do that. So, while the Valar can appeal to Eru to change Tuor's nature, they can't grant that request on their own. This is also why even though Sam and Frodo could live in Aman, they would not themselves have become immortal. Bilbo and possibly Gimli are different in that especially in Bilbo's case: he loved the Elves and wanted to be with them always, just as Tuor did. Earendil *did not*, except for Idril, which explains why he chose to be accounted among the Elves.
But, again, any change in nature would have to not just be allowed, but actually done by Iluvatar directly. One other example is that Gandalf grew more powerful after he "died" fighting the Balrog because Iluvatar made him more powerful. Tolkien specifically said that this upgrade was *not* done by the Valar, as they didn't have the power to grant it. Also, when Aule made the Dwarves, they were mere puppet with no real life or will of their own, until Iluvatar granted it to them. The Valar are quite powerful, but they're not all-powerful.
I think something else that gives interesting insights into how men viewed the elves and their immortality as well as what elves thought about the Gift of Men can found in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring. The conversation between Finrod and the human woman Andreth is fascinating.
Hope you'll get better Yoystan! Thank you for one more amazing video, I usually dont comment this but I really liked your message at the end, that we people should be gratefull for what we have! Hope you'll get well, great video!
I remember someone referring to one of Tolkien's letters where he spelled out that a human who went to valinor would be driven mad since their spirit would become weary and long for death but their body would stay strong forever.
I wonder if it's possible that Tuor was a rare case of an elvish soul born into a man's body? Also, he only really lives among elves his whole life and maybe he picked up enough of their ways to live happily in valinor?
Eru can practically do what he want. It's not problem to him to make Tuor elf. If Tuor died as a mortal man, he and Idril would be divided until remaking of the world. Which is really really long time. So Eru decided not to divide two soulmates (he made the same decission with Lúthien and Beren).
I am curious what happened to Amandil. If Valar or Eru punished him for his selfless action, than they aren't any better than Melkor.
I know that Tolkien was not at all into allegory, but I also know his idea of Eucatastrophe is foundational to his understading of story. That in mind, the challenge of Tuor is not so much if viewed from the perspective of the Biblical story of Elijah, who is said to be taken directly into heaven without experiencing death. That was afforded to him based in his deeds as prophet, and not a fate to which all are bound. Tuor thus is alike to Elijah in that fashion.
Tolkien never said he was against allegory. He said LOTR wasn’t written as an allegory for WW2.
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien
@@garrettp6008 I think if one reads enough traditional poetry and song the allegory is for the human condition. I think Tolkien was concerned he would be seen as some sort of prophet when he never claimed that. Sadly it is because we all repeat our own history.
Getting through it here too, and this was great, thank you. Hope you feel better soon and thanks for grinding through!
Your dedication to your fans and love is admirable. Take care my friend.
I think Tuor and his many deeds including his exploits in the Fall of Gondolin and being the father of Earendil would warrant admittance to Valinor.
Galadriel vouched for Gimli, and I see no reason why Ulmo wouldn’t vouch for he and his wonderful wife Idril.
Even if they weren’t magically turned into elves, I hope they would be allowed to live out their lives in Valinor!
I agree
but it is strange if that is the case, since the Valar would be going against Illuvatar, by denying Tuor the gift of death. In my opinion, in the eyes of Illuvatar, it would be more of a punishment for Tuor to become immortal as a man, since he would be denied the freedom of not being tied to Arda, which in essence is the gift of men. On the other hand, there were also men before and after Tuor who performed acts worthy of recognition, so why did these men not receive the same treatment as Tuor, that is, what would be the parameter for the Valar to make a man immortal?
The comments under your videos are as fascinating as the videos themselves. I always have to stop myself from getting too sucked in because I could read for hours.
I never read it as the hobbits and Gimli going west as going to Valinor, more that they were going to Tol Erresëa. I base this on the description of Frodo's dream and the final passage in ROTK from his perspective. Still over the bent seas, but not in the holy land.
Yes, it’s possible that Frodo and his company have dwelled in Tol Eressea where Elrond and Galadriel might stay for a while before going to mainland Valinor. It’s also possible that the ring bearers would be presented before the Valar to honor their heroic deeds and be blessed.
Excellent work. Hope you get over I'm guessing the coof, it does suck, but this too shall pass. Get well and all of us are looking forward to the next video. Have a good rest of your week.
Men walking in on the Valor, Maia and Elves in the bathroom.
"What are you guys doing in here?"
"Get outta here men. We're doing powers and immortality and undying lands, and you don't want no part of this shit!"
Awesome explanation Yoystan always love your vids
Keep up the great work, Yoystan!
Great video. Thank you for this
Sidenote: Speedy recovery from your sickness! Hope you get better soon!
Thanks Stefan!
Thank you for another wonderful video
Another idea is that any good-hearted heroes of Men who sailed west to Valinor were allowed to live out the rest of their mortal lives there before dying. I see Men as more of Illuvatar's science project while the Elves ended up being the science project of the Valar. I doubt that Eru would have allowed his lesser gods to punish men with good in their hearts for being in Valinor. Their "punishment" could be never being allowed to leave (and reveal it to evil men) and they still die. But that's my idea based on my understanding of the texts. Obviously no writings exist to prove or disprove it.
Fantastic take!
Great video! I hope they show the sheer magnitude of Pharazon's grave decision in the show!
Feel better Master Yoystan!
Great video, Yoystan, as always!
The fate of Elves is bound to the fate of Arda, while Men are bound to leave Arda after death. What about the ones 'not Children of Eru' (or I guess indirectly because in a way they are all Children of Eru's will) - dwarves, ents, hobbits, even orcs, what happens to them in death?
The undying lands were never really a part of Arda. Its literally Tolkien's version of heaven. Men are doomed to damnation no matter what they do. The gift is damnation.
@@RoyCyberPunk Valinor is still part of Arda albeit not being in the same physical plane as ME. And by being part of it, it's not immune to Melkor's corruption and still marred. However, cuz of the presence of the Valar there, the marring is halted or at least slowed down to a degree. Though there will come a time that the 'powers aka the Vala" will become weary and Valinor will succumb to Melkor's corruption - this is the beginning of Dagor Dagorath or the Apocalypse as prophesized by Mandos.
@@ArJay1688
The Valar where always an interesting mix as they seem to be downgraded in authority and power deities from both Norse and Greek mythology as created beings and administrators of sorts.
After the deluge destroyed the ancient world that ME used to occupy many Valar ended up being wrongly worshiped as being the actual creators even though they were created beings themselves if we go by the mythology Tolkien created.
What is fascinating is how much on history much of it yet to be discovered he based his mythology on.
Back then only Neanderthals were known as other hominids and science believed humans and Neanderthals only came into contact with each other shortly before their extinction and no other hominids shared the Earth with us. Now we know that's not remotely true that many hominids besides humans shared this world and interacted with each other much in the same way he described in his mythology we now that even tiny Hobbit like hominids complete with larger than usual feet did in fact exist as well as gigantic hominids we now call the Danisovans. So I would not be surprised if they end up finding elf and Dwarf like hominids remains at some point in the future to complete the collection.
Thanks for everything Joysten! Been a fan for a long time I love your stuff
Please do a “what if Faramir went to Rivendell instead of Boromir?”
💚
I always found the opening quote about Earendil a bit jarring. This is the first man that the Valar have met, as far as we know, and the response of at least some of them is "eww, kill it." Really?
That said, I think you've come up with a really good reason as to why men in Valinor doesn't work. Valinor is a place of near-permanence, and things approaching eternal, whereas men are ever changing. Just as the elves could not stay in Middle-Earth but over time found that they were worn away by it so I suspect that men in Valinor would also fail.
Ulmo would've watched over him. The one of the valar who was always there
Great video Yoystan! I’m sorry you’re sick and I do hope you feel better soon! I have to agree with you on the whole Tuor becoming immortal isn’t possible since he was born a man and not an elf or even a peredhel. I think you could be correct to the fact that it’s possible that he sailed the seas until his death and it’s possible that Idril could have either gone to Valinor or is it possible she could have faded from grief? It’s nice that someone who maybe researched what happened to them decided to give them a “Happy Ending” but I have always wondered what actually did happen to them in the end.
I like to believe that if the Valar had allowed the Royal family of Numenor to visit Valinor, and instructed them directly all they understood of Arda and the nature of man, allowed them to see with their own eyes that the gift of Man is unaffected by dwelling in Aman, it could have prevented much of what would ultimately befall that kingdom and the line of Earendil.
Yes. Explain it directly to them.
The world is theirs to create.
To shape and mold as they see fit.
That's their gift whereas elves and the valar themselves are bound to the world and long Existence in the end can be suffering.
Reminds of heaven in that show with Ted Danson.
How everyone was tired of existence.
So you know what I mean?
Great video!
The only thing I'm unhappy with Tolkien is he never gave us a story about an Elf taking a Man-maiden and having descendants, just Men taking Elf-maidens and having descendants.
But, as with Dol-Amroth, we can have elf-maiden running away after delivering the children, why not the reverse?
Love the merch!
Man, such interesting points Mellon...I tried to think of more to add, but I can't!!!
Hope you get better for the Virus Mellon (I have been a safe Hobbit and avoided getting it) Enjoy Experiencing Tolkien in any way during this time!!!!
Thanks, Mellon for this very Important (for those who haven't read The Silmarillion) Middle-Earth Explained...Until Arwen's ECH, Marion Baggins Out!!!
I hope you feel better soon. *hug*
This is very interesting. I think Tuor was given the choice of being an elf; he was beloved of Ulmo, and perhaps Ulmo spoke for Tuor and was allowed to stay in Valinor. Keep coming with these great videos!
Nice video my man... I hope you get well soon
"End? No the journey doesn't end here."
It's difficult for mortals to accept their fate, especially wen it isn't known. And it's tragic for immortals to see the ones they love fall. But a place was set aside for both races to dwell. And after the one ring was destroyed the fellowship came together again, so much in the same way after the world is destroyed and remade all races will b brought back together again. They just have different ways of getting there. ^__^
I think fundamentally, the Valar had to keep to the rule of 'no Men' because Men were the chosen special people of Eru. It was not for the Valar to place themselves above the gift.
Wise observations all!
Because even if you sail West, you come around. Straight path is only for few, and men could not go there even if they tried. Only few can go there, and none come back.
And this was done precisely because what Yosten told here.
And remember the saying "clown moving into castle does not make him king. It turns castle into circus."
My personal head-canon has been thus:
Eru created the Valar and Maiar to help him in shaping Creation. Together, they shaped Arda.
One of His creations of great power grew jealous and fell to corruption, corrupting Arda in turn.
The First Children, the Elves, came about to assist the Gods in maintaining Arda. They are its caretakers, beneath the direction of the Valar and Maiar. They are uniquely formed to forever be thus, so they're immortal and have the psyche to live an immortal life bound to one world. They also are more resistant to Melkor's corruption of the world over which they are caretakers.
The Second Children, Men, were created with a different purpose. They, too, play out the part of a caretaker of Arda, but with a fundamental trait different from the First Born; Men are Ambitious. They were meant to live out their lives, gathering an impression of this creation, die, then take that impression, combine it with their innate ambition, and travel on with Eru to continue the work of furthering new Creation. Just not with the same power as was given to the Valar; Eru had seen what were the consequences of investing so much power into Melkor, who fell. The Valar also, in my impression, seemed to have either settled on staying caretakers solely of Arda, or they had been created from the beginning with that in mind, like the elves who followed them.
I've read many different arguments regarding this question. I think the concept of men withering away in the sheer light and glory of Valinor may have been more figurative than literal. The weight on a person slowing growing old while nothing around them changes I think would be maddening. Just imagine living in a place and nobody around you really changes. Just you. You get older while your neighbor just stays young. The seasons don't change, just stay eternally springtime. Your body starts to have aches and pains from age. Finally you're old and weary and dying and there isn't any difference in any of the people you might know. You're literally a blip in the eternity of their lives and when you finally die you quickly become just a distant memory. To a normal human in such an environment, life would seem to blast right on past and you just get old.
That kind of reminds me of the end of 2001 Space Odyssey where it just seems like Bowman lives his life out in an unchanging isolated environment. Every time he looks around he's just older and nothing has changed. That's what I think living in Valinor as a mortal would be like. And it would monumentally suck.
Always thought Amandil must have encountered Ulmo along the way, and that Amandil was to perish after transmiting his warning to the Valar.
As to Tuor, weirdly I was always convinced that he died right before he could step foot on land and that Idril chose the fate of men as Luthien had.
Tuor being counted as an elf and not a man is on his story:
His father died to save Turgon and Gondolin Army.
His mother took refuge with the elves but, after delivering him (to them) she abandoned him and died in front of Angband.
Tuor life was with the elves from the beginning.
He was breastfed (probably) by them, raised by them, taught by them, he fought for them, he escaped with them from Morgoth Army. His destiny was linked to elves' destiny from his birth. He only interacts with men when he is enslaved or fight/kill them
He was the first man to see the Sea and he felt the longing for it. This is an elf trait man have not.
Ulmo made him his messenger to Gondolin. And Gondolin accepted and loved him (with one exception, of course).
Turgon loved him as a son and had no problem with him marrying his daughter; in fact, he was happy about it and their son.
Another important thing is he saved a lot of people of Gondolin and was, the facto, their lord after that and responsible for their well-being.
Last, but not least, as Lutien chose the fate of Man (and it is a big loss for the Ainur and the Elves), there is a void in Valinor. And it can be filled by Tuor on account of his life being an elf in everything but his natural parents.
Thematically, for Tolkien, it is the concept of "you are what you do", "you imbue your life in your works".
Tuor has no home outside elves' homes. And forcing the Fate of Men on him would be wrong.
As Eru Iluvatar allowed Lutien to choose a different destiny so allowed Tuor to get the same.
BTW, in the first drafts of the fall of Gondolin, he kills 3 orc-chiefs, 5 Balrogs and rescues wounded Ecthelion. Not to say the insta-kill of Maeglin. ""and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it""
In speaking about why and who gets to go to Valinor we of course have to speak of what happens to men and elves when they die. It is that I would like to comment on. I think Luthien's and Beren's story gives us a good deal of insight on the matter. Beren's final destination is the "Halls of Time" with Eru Iluvatar the creator. The "gift" then becomes apparent for the elves do not get that oppurtunity to be with the creator. Sure they are immortal but they do not have the priviledge to be in the very presence of the one who has the imperishable flame the ability to give life Eru Iluvatar himself. Eru has bestowed upon both races gifts unique to their species yet both are valued by him. Thanks for the oppurtunity to chatter a bit.
Thanks guys
All I can see is Gimili rushing off the boat to go see Galadriel with a gigantic smile on his face and then singing outside her window to say hello to her like a lovestruck boy haha
The deeper you dive into the nuances of the nature of ME the more confusing it gets. Tolkien even says in some writings that Elves weren't actually immortal and that Valinor wasn't really deathless, but that the lives of the creatures and Elves of Valinor were simply longer in accordance with Valian years.
I believe he described them as having perpetual longevity, or something along those lines. I’m sure the ainur were truly immortal, as they were created before time itself, and can change aspects of reality, but as far as I understand it the elves live as long as Arda, so a very very long time, but not forever.
I always wondered why Shadowfax went to Valinor? Was it because He and Gandalf had such a close bond? Also, were the Palantirs still used after the destruction of Sauron? Was Sauron`s Palantir in Barad Dur ever recovered from the debris, or was it destroyed?
In brief, Shadowfax was from a line of horses (the Mearas) that originated in Valinor, and he was, it would seem, a pretty pureblooded spawn of that line. So, he is basically going back to where his ancestors came from. Also, his bond with Gandalf is part of why Shadowfax would *want* to go Valinor.
The Palantir in Barad Dur (which came from Minas Ithil), was very likely destroyed when Barad Dur collapsed. The Palantir that was in Minas Anor (Minas Tirith) showed only a pair of hands burning up after what Denethor did, unless someone with a very strong will were to use it. Gandalf presumably took the Palantir of Orthanc back to Valinor with him when he left. There was also one in one of the Elf Towers to the west of the Shire, but I don't think Tolkien ever says much about that one. The one that was in Osgiliath was lost/destroyed long before the War of the Ring. I don't recall off the top of my head what happened to the rest, but I think we can presume they're no longer accessible.
@@tuorofgondolin8235 Thanks very much! You know your Tolkien lore!!
@@seankelly7211 NP. Happy to help out.
@@tuorofgondolin8235 I don’t think Gandalf took the Orthanc stone with him when he returned to the west, unless Aragorn asked him too, I also seem to recall a line from Aragorn about using the Orthanc stone. Also if he were to take any stones back with him I’d assume that the Minas Anor stone would have gone as well to be purified in the blessed realm, and again I’m sure there is a passage about anyone attempting to use it only sees Denethor’s burning hands as you’ve mentioned.
@@nathantudor5763 You're right. I thought I remembered Gandalf taking it with him in Unfinished Tales (which, for those reading, is where most lore on the Palantir comes from). But I could be mistaken about that. What the narrative says about the Anor stone after Denethor dies holding it implies that it stayed in Minas Tirith, by my reading, anyway.
I Hope you get better Yoystan
So Yoystan. One of and all
I've been thinking about the possible scenario of the what if numenor used its full resources to conquer middle earth instead of trying to go to valinor and here's my few thoughts if I had been on the kingsmen side.
Phase one if forces are not already complete.
Immediate naval blockade of Lindon.
Landing troops in the old site of Lond daer. To make camps between what would've been THARBAD to down to the mouth of the river.
To 'siege' eriador and the elves, middle men and faithful numenorians living in the area.
At same time id construct the equivalents of isengard and helms deep till in their relevant places to prevent flank attacks by greenwood and lorien.
Phase two
Immediately gather my colonies at umbar and to the south and my client states to muster a large force of arms to march north and pacify the area known as gondor to fight the faithful there. Using my fleet to provide naval support and eventually reinforcements from numenor to destroy and capture the faithful ports..
Phase three.
March north and fight lorien.
Essentially to destroy the forest to prevent places to hide.
These are the forces of king amdir.
Any survivors might flee to greenwood, imladris and if they are friendly to the dwarves which I'm not sure about, khazad dum.
Then in a reverse of the last alliance March from north to south, id go to south to north for the passes leading to imladris to attack the flank. While that goes on, my forces south of eriador will after receiving steady reinforcements, would march north across the river.
Split into three prongs.
Phase four
One prong will head to Lindon proper to pin down reinforcements, while supplied by the fleet. The center prong with cleanse the area which would've become arnor to wipe out the elves, and faithful and enslave the middle men.
The right flank would join up with the army that secured, (gondor and Rohan and lorien) and attack the rear of any elven forces and survivors who fled to imladris.
Once Elrond and any force is gone, both armies to join the middle prong to reform and join the left prong holding down Lindon.
Phase four.
Full scale assault on the borders of Lindon to the Grey havens.
Long bloody campaign since escape is impossible thanks to my numenorian fleet.
Then besiege the havens and assault it on one flank and a second flank like a d day style landing with reinforcements from the south and additional from numenor.
Phase five
The Eldar are gone, the faithful are gone.
Spend a few years resupply and securing everything west of the anduin river.
When time is right go full force including a repeat of lorien on a grandeur scale on the kingdom of greenwood and the realms of men to the east.
I don't know if the dwarves can be conquered or if all halls and Dwarven kingdom's can be taken.
Maybe the ones in the blue mountains and iron hills.
Unlikely khazad dum and erebor.
Maybe the gray mountains?
What do people think? Have thoughts or opinions? It's all good 👍
We all know Tolkien's thoughts on allegory, but I can't help but see here a metaphor for original sin.
Greetings. Excellent video; however, I do have one comment. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli did not go to Valinor, but to Tol Eressëa, which is a separate land within the realm of Aman. Because of this, they were able to live out their mortal lives without the deleterious effects of living within Valinor proper.
"Mortal or immortal, I die, I leave eternity to Thee; for what is man that he should live out the lifetime of his God?" Herman Melville, Moby-Dick.
I have a what-if video suggestion: What if Sam had been less harsh to Gollum, and instead at least tried to understand him and treat him not like a creature, but as a person? Personally, I believe Smeagol would have remained the dominant personality for longer than he did, that the damage done at the Forbidden Pool would have been lessened, and that he would have relented from turning the Hobbits over to Shelob. Just an idea, if you have the time for it.
There is definitely something to think about in your idea 🤔
Movie maybe, book nah, Gollum was already growing before they exited the marsh. There is one moment on the pass that makes it seem like Smeagol may be growing, but he had already visited Shelob at that point. No, book Gollum is set on saving the ring for him.
I think Sam gets a bad rap, when the evil mood was on him Gollum had been thinking and plotting to hand them over to Shelob the whole entire way from Emyn Muil to the Morgul Vale (Shelob's Lair Chapter). Sam while not wholly aware did overhear Gollum winning the debate before they even got to the gate. I think Sam was more than kind given what Sam knew, and his primary duty was to help Frodo and protect him. Part of that is keeping a wary eye on strangers whether Gollum or Faramir. Just rereading Book 4, and I don't agree Sam treated Gollum as a creature, but as a person he doesn't trust. When Sam was harsh, he did apologize and when talking to Gollum I don't see that level of degradation at all.
@@jamess7576 Yes, I suppose Sam wans´t as cruel as I initially suggested, and I do remember him apologizing. But still, Frodo´s kindness brought out Smeagol, and Sam admitted that Gollum had it in for him, Sam, a few times because of his, Sam´s, treatment of Gollum. I simply wonder, if Frodo´s kindness did so much, what a little more kindness and trust from Sam would have done.
@@declankrebs4073 I think Frodo's influence in that is mainly due to being the ringbearer, probably no something that Sam could have replicated. Also, keep in mind that even though Smeagol was the friendlier of the two, he was also the one who had already once killed his best friend to get the ring to himself.
@@romaliop Yes, those points are valid. Still, Smeagol does seem to have regretted his murder, which he did under the influence of the ring. All of this curiosity of mine stemes from that part of the Two Towers where Gollum, or really Smeagol, saw the two Hobbits sleeping and very nearly relented from bringing them to Shelob, but Sam woke up and spoke harshly to him, so that, in Tolkien´s words, ¨The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall.¨ I would just like to see how things would have changed if Sam was a bit less harsh and a bit more trusting at that point and earlier. Maybe nothing; I certainly would be surprised if Smeagol stayed dominant as they got closer to Mount Doom. But I still would want to see.
Tolkien in various essays and stories he was working on addressed much of what you bring up. Simply (or not) for some few mortals, they carry upon them some powerful Doom that acts as a shield, exception, and grace to many dangers. Thus Beren could pierce the Girdle of Melian. And the marriage of Tuor and Idril did not end in eternal separation. Valinor, as is described, is not a place where Mortals can dwell--but not that individuals may be go there, with permission. We know Frodo and Sam were allowed because they were Ring-Bearers and Gimli won permission because Legolas asked while Galadriel spoke for him. It is not that Eru Illuvatar forbids Men from coming to the Undying Lands, but the Valar realize that is generally (but not always) a bad idea.
As for what happened to Amandil, we simply do not know. The bottom line is, his mission did not allow him to return. Maybe his ship can to ruin, or became ensnared in the visions that surround the undying lands so it and its crew await the End of Days, or perhaps they lived out their days in Valinor forbidden to return. We don't know.
In my opinion the gift of death is relatable to the possibility of change
Elves are eternal and they struggle to comes to terms with the passing of time and the meaning of savoring life
For them there is eternal opportunities
Men are forced to appreciate what they can of their life and strive for better
They have limited time
Men changes because of the fear of death
Elves cannot
There is also the possibility born from the cristian faith of the author about the afterlife (both in terms of paradise or a new reincarnation) that eru reserved for only men
Elves are eternal but have only one shot of life
Men are mortal but have another possibility
O find that poetic
Hope you're feeling better.
I wonder if they had a taste of immortality just from camping out on the shores of valinor
Ernest Adams really knows his stuff when it comes to Tolkien.
I like to think Tuor went. We bend the rule without breaking it, exceptions are what make stories great, over good. Some histories are not, and will never be known and some are not meant to be.
I like to think Tuor was canon. An individual man may gain immortality of the Elves as a singular exception, since especially with Tuor, having witnessed Ulmo uncloaked and directed by him gave him some special credit but Men as a whole could not live in Aman since it would be a short life of bliss and no struggle and so not a fair trade considering how special the 2nd destiny is supposed to be with Eru.
This may be because, just as Middle-earth caused the elves to wither, the Undying Lands could cause the people to wither. For people whose souls are not bound to Arda, the Undying Lands can cause them to wither. For the Valar cannot change the destinies of men. But for this thought, I do not have any information about the legendarium.
It’s what the elves told the numenoreans in Silmarillion. I think it’s in the section Akkabaleth.
Because Anakin was waiting just outside to kill not just the men but the women and the children too.
Bro, Anakin was just sitting on a boat, waiting... Oh no, those poor Númenóreans...
Uncanny timing, I am just today finishing my first read of Akallabeth - Al Pharazon has just embarked into the West and, damn it's epic tragedy! That means I can only watch half of this right now, lest you spoil what happens, but I expect I'll finish in an hour or so. But watching this much, it suddenly struck me, what if Amandil did make it to Valanor, and made his plea, and that plea might have been heeded with militant eagles and a huge thunder cloud? Probably not the response he was hoping for exactly. And he'd probably be punished on top of that, but I hope in some way his years of faithfulness was recognized and rewarded, just maybe not in this life.
It could be thought of like this, or at least this is how I justify it: *Elves immortality in Arda pay for Men's mortality.* As the Elves diminish, they still have an exceptionally long lasting afterlife in Valinor but have but a *mortal life* in direct company of Eru Illuviatar. Whereas *Good, Faithful, Honorable Mortal Men* after death *do not diminish* and share immortality with Eru Illuviatar directly.
Men slept through life with the Valar, are "stirring" and just starting to awake in Middle Earth (this in between state of sleep and consciousness strikes them with a sense of existential dread) *and are fully awoken in the presence of Eru* when their physical bodies perish.
In this way, men's ultimate fate would be most enviable to all immortal creation in Arda. Enviable indeed. Imagine being an immortal that lives until the end of all things without ever meeting your Creator. And when you finally do, it is but for a brief, fleeting time period, let's say 70-100 years or the average human lifespan today. *Eru brings men to him faster than any other being, and for longer.*
It is of Eru's judgement that the burden of envy and thus ultimate evil and corruption fall upon men in Arda, *as opposed to Elves rebelling in the afterlife.* It's a well guarded secret even from the Valar because it prevents Elves from the knowledge that their time with Eru *would be relatively brief* before finally being laid to rest; eternal slumber. Whereas again, mortal men have "slept" through "life" with the Valar and "sleep-walked" through their time in Arda before being *awoken and reunited forever with Eru.*
In this way, he always keeps and balances out the ultimate peace and prosperity of his children, both receiving the greatest of gifts imaginable. "Mortality" isn't death, but simply various stages of sleep 💤😴
_It's such a gift in fact that it would be the Elves, Maia and even the Valar resenting Men, _*_and is thus such a well guarded secret._* Just a thought 🤔
Honestly, Amandil was justified. If the Valar had done their job properly and got rid of Sauron (2 times, the war of the powers and of wrath) this whole thing would have been avoided. Though, with Tolkiens theme Numenor was probably turning evil sometime anyway.
First, this has always been something I didn't like; another example of the "perfect elves", but I think one thought in support of it could be that the Undying Lands are also unchanging. Man has a desire to shape, command, and master his surroundings; to put his own stamp on it, while Elves crave stasis. If Men went to Valinor, they might feel stifled by a terrain they couldn't bend to their will; that didn't need them to give it direction. They'd feel like nothing, and in a way be as nothing to this place. In Middle Earth, they retained their ability to affect the world around them, and their descendants could then take that up, and reshape it again, buy not so in Valinor, where things were "perfect" already, and didn't need to change. The timeless Elves, in fact, wanted a place, needed it, that would last at was alongside them, and that would conflict with Men.
As for the gift of the journey, another video I watched hinted that even Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli never actually made it as far as Valinor. They were permitted to sail across the sea, but only as far as Tol Eressia, where, in the view of Valinor, they could live it their mortal time, but still not touch it, for the same harms that might have come to Men there would have effected them, and they were being rewarded; not punished. Of course, this was but the claim of another poster, so the accuracy is uncertain to me.
'Come on Baby, don't fear the Reaper.' -- Donald 'Buck Dharma' Roeser (1976)
Great song
😁
Im super new to the Lord of the Rings and the Tolkien lore and ive only read parts of the Simarillion, and i dont understand all of its allegory and symbolism; but , isnt the cause kinda alluded to in this video super emphatically and super in line with Mark Twain's take on Heaven"? Isnt it the "transitory" and plastic nature of human disposition - which I think Tolkien says in the Simarillion: grants us a sort of greater share in freewill than elves. - that part of us that would make us eventually kinda bored with heaven?....Im not trying to pose rhetorical questions here im really asking because theres so much background info and I know very little of it.
I think mortals weren't allowed in Valinor because they were meant to pass on to another form or level of reality.
If they did, then they'd become immortal and essentially get trapped in the "false forever" of a heavenly plane of existence inside a world they had to eventually leave behind.
People like Frodo or Gimli were, because of the hardships in their lives, allowed to spend a few decades or centuries in Valinor but were probably eventually expected to die and go to a place the immortal races could never even imagine.
Ultimately, immortality and mortality are only relevant inside the framework of Middle Earth, which is ultimately an artificial construct. Mortality means that your existence isn't inexorably tied to an ever dying, irrevocably corrupt world.
At least this is my theory on why the elves considered it to be a gift. They knew that us, humans will pass on to something bigger and better, a Heaven if you will, while they can theoretically life forever, but trapped in a world that is destined to die(through entropy)
Imagine, if you will, an elf who lived through the second and third ages, survived the fall of Sauron and then spent the next couple thousand years hanging around until the Seventh Age, the 21st century.
You would not envy him or the things he had to witness.
I am not sure about Tuor, because Ulmo influenced him so much, that he became essentially a tool of a Vala, wich was forbidden and with that ecxeption only done by Morgoth and Sauron. So you could make the argument, that, to make ammense for the taking of the free will of tuor, he could choose immortality, as recompensation for his une by Ulmo.
If you die while fighting a Balrog doesn’t that make you come back to life, or give you immortality? I thought I remembered hearing something about that.
Nope. Elves that die fighting a Balrog go to the Halls of Mandos, just like any other Elven soul (fea). Men that die fighting a Balrog leave the Circles of the World just like any other man. Of course, Gandalf wasn't an Elf or a Man, so what happened to him is different.
So what does happen to frodo and gimli do they live on tol erresia or do they get a glimpse and die, ive always wondered on that.
I think tol eressa even for the noldor.
With the latter doing a stint there before moving to the mainland.
I’ve always wondered what would have happened if a man had recovered a Silmaril and in true virtue and selflessness brought it to Valinor to return it to the Valar
Swift recovery. Wish Elrond was available as an MD.
Tuor making it to Valinor and becoming an Elf is definitely canon, Tolkien outright stated in Letter 153 that Eru Ilúvatar intervened directly to make this exception.
I like to think Aragorn and Faramir would have been allowed to enter Valinor because they both resisted the One ring's power which is a godly feat in itself to achieve.
Lets say theoretically in the 1st age, men crossed the Helcaraxë(and braved the cold in which few Noldor survived) and thet reached Valinor, what would happen if they stepped foot on the continent? Would the Valar meet them there and tell them to turn back? Would they be buried like the Numenóreans? Or would they somehow survive?
Great question! I think the assumption of your second question is right, Mandos would probably show up and say, "Turn around" lol
@@MenoftheWest I read this in the "TURN AROUND" voice from Bonnie Tyler's "Total Eclipse of the Heart." LOL
My view is more cynical, I think the Valar were both jealous and resentful towards man, both that they were the only ones on Arda that could leave the world and that they were all tainted by Morgoth, remember that the Valar did a war for the sake of the elves 2x! And never for the sake of man, they never showed themselves to mortal man,(Except Ulmo in very rare occasions in the first age). And think about it the first idea of how the world was supposed to be ordered was intended for first and second borne children of Ero to live together with the Valar and Majar. So what changed? Their perceptions of man changed.
Also a side tangent, man of Numenor were what ALL humans were intended to be, but the corruption of Morgoth shortened their lives and made them more self destructive in nature. And the Valar only dispelled Morgoths corruption for a time for those man who fought for them, in the war of wrath. Why do I have such preconception? The first man the elves encountered in the first age during the siege of Angband lived for 500 years.. and only after the siege fell did the lifespan of mortal man shorten to what it is now.
Get well soon!
I tend to think that the ringbearers and Gimli were allowed to live the rest of their lives on Tol Eressëa, but never actually set foot on the mainland of Valinor.
I personally would have assumed that they were allowed (for the ring bearers at least) into the gardens of Lorien, to heal the damage done to their Fëa by the ring, before being allowed to live out their remaining days in the blessed realm until they chose to leave the world (much like
Aragorn)
mortality is gift because it helps us appriciate life we have and help us towards our goals.... with immortality time doesnt matter you could delay what you want for thousands of years and nothing would change for you
I Think Meatloaf Said it best "Life is a Lemon and I want my money back"
Wasn't it the case that the Valar didn't understand men? They had a purpose that was beyond their understanding and left the circles of the world to a place they had no knowledge of. It seems to me they wanted to separate themselves to allow for Eru's plan to unfold accordingly. It might be why they asked Eru to deal with Ar-Pharazon's fleet rather than take action directory.