Honestly though, if executed PROPERLY wisps could be interesting in an open zone format (idk how they'd be able to do drill though, that kinda requires 2D and the forced 2D sections of frontiers were always the worst).
Oh yes, we got to experiance and know all Zavok's deep inner thoughts and feelings towards Sonic after jogging for those hundreds of Memory Tokens. After all we all know he's such a well-thought, complex character.
@@ktli5648 Yeah, Wisps could've easily stayed in Modern Sonic had they moved closer to being more like Elemental Shields, instead of being hyper gimmicky segments that slowed the pace to a crawl.
Ya pretty sure it’s been in development since a few months after frontiers launched. That’s how game development works lol, Sonic Team hasn’t just been sitting around twiddling their thumbs 😅
I doubt that it’s really shocking but tbf Some people ARE REALLY OUT of the loop. I once heard someone say He thought he was the only person who liked frontiers. And also We assumed it was in development but now we now for sure
They'll use Silver to do that. I actually predict Silver will be in the next game not because they want him there but because it'll be a great way they can rip off the Zelda series.
TH-cam glitched and showed timecodes from another video, first of them being "What even is Garry's Mod?", and then I see you talking about Sonic with the gravity gun
To be fair, I would buy a Sonic level creation tool, like Sonic Studio, or the Sonic Frontiers level creator plugin for Blender. They have decades of assets made for these games, and Kishimoto said they have an internal level creator for Adventure style and Boost style games.
Good video but I'd like to point out that Nintendo HAS definitely fallen into this cycle too before. Super Mario Galaxy 2, all of the NSMB sequels, and most recently, Tears of the Kingdom. All games that don't really do much to be different from their predecessors, they're just more of the same thing.
Kirby...just Kirby (I love Kirby but they are mostly games that just improve and add to the same formula and yes the next 3D Kirby is gonna do that as well)
@@TGVARAMega Man feels as if Capcom took this video’s advice of making something different… but they kept making the old thing as well every time. At some point, you get an overwhelming landslide of disparate and similar things that inevitably all blends together. It’s still better (for me) than not releasing anything for 6 years.
Well imma say. The pop in is gonna be, way better in the sequel, that’s for sure. Because the reason why frontiers pop in is so bad, is because the new stuff they added in, was done at the last minute, so they only made the highest quality model, and ditched, or did not make lower quality versions of it, or not doing what the wyvern, autoscroller platforms transitions, did. Because frontiers, trees pop in is decent. For frontiers standards, And the ancient buildings, and tunnels pop in, is good or decent. So they know how to do pop in, it’s just that they listened to a play tester, that said the open zones were way to empty, so they added as much stuff as possible, in the last year, of development. And I’m glad they did that decision, because frontiers is a way more fun game, due to that. And is not a wasteland of an open world, with very little amount to do.
Not gonna lie a lot of your assumption what a Frontiers 2 would be like seem really unlikely given both Frontiers development history and Sonic team as a developer. For one the reason Frontiers as it exist has all of its platforming entirely separate from the actual worlds geometry is because it was literally a late addition into the game. Originally was the game suppose to focus on just running around the empty world and fight enemies. Its only got its platforming elements after Beta testers complained about the game being boring and even the non Sonic fans starting to ask were the platforming is that they expected a Sonic game to have (Sonic Team seriously didn't realize that even the most casual of audiences expects platforming to be part of a Sonic game) Given that for a sequel the platforming segments will be part of the plan from the start would I at least have to assume that they would melt them better into the environments. Frontiers as it already does this after all the mini map unlocking puzzles that were always part of the design. Sonic Team is also far more known for suddenly changing entirely for any given reason. Like how Lost Worlds entirely dumped the boost or how Heroes made a 180 in ton and focus to appeal to new players more. A lot of your comparison also have massive issues them self. Rush Adventure did worse than Rush because it came out 2 years latter meaning right after 06 just poisoned the well and at the same time as gen 4 Pokemon (sure a different genre but lets be real its Pokemon) combined with very little advertisement for it (like there a tons of Rush fans I have seen that didn't know until years latter Rush Adventure even existed) does it only make sense that it did worse. More over Dimps also was working on different projects for Sonic right after Rush Adventure too in form of there contribution to Sonic Unleashed WIi/PS2 and right after that did they undust the Rush engine and make another Rush like game in form of Sonic Colors DS while also using the same engine to make Sonic the portable which than was upgraded to Sonic 4 while having to write a all new engine soon after to make Sonic Generations 3ds something that took so much time than the game it self was than massively lacking to the point were like 5 stage layouts were copied 1 for 1 from there source games. They were already doing more than they really had staff for so there was not really much space for a Sonic Rush 3 anyway. Even after Generations did the have to make Sonic 4 Episode 2 and Lost Worlds 3ds after all and after this point did they part ways with Sega on Sonic's projects. Worse only is your Sonic and All stars racing argument as Transformed Sold MORE than the first one. They only made a fully Sonic Racing game afterwards rather than a third All stars game because Iizuka wanted to have the game optimized for him playing with his children. So that was Team head personal pet project superseding the financially sensible. More over given your reasoning should Colors and Generations both have been financial Disasters being just more of Unleashed which it self was just 3d Rush.
I really wish Pariah would be more diligent with content like this, the fact that your comment even had to of been made is a problem. I genuinely hope that Pariah starts to actually try to prove what he says in his videos in the future rather than current where he provides no evidence of such and that he puts more effort into researching the topics he makes videos on. Although, considering how often mistakes like these come up both with the history of the franchise and with it's lore, I'm starting to doubt that he will ever improve. As for you @rynobehnke8289, thank you, more people need to see where Pariah makes mistakes. keep up the good work :)
This is a pattern with sequels in general, where the first one brings something exciting to the table and the subsequent ones serve more as an improvement/enhancement to the previous experience. While frontiers 2 may not sell as well as frontiers, it may still sell relatively well with changing very little, which is probably what sega wants here. Essentially their model seems to go towards "how much can we potentially extract from this engine,formula, general design before we move on to the next "big" thing?" In this lens i don't think it really matters if frontiers 2 sells amazingly well, it just needs to sell "well enough" and then they can move on.
What you guys aren't understanding is this isn't a sequel, it's using the same gameplay formula, SEGA hasn't made a "sequel" since Rivals 2. Otherwise you could just call Colors Unleashed 2, and Generations Unleashed 3 even though these games have similar styles all they really do is expand on what worked and remove what didn't. Which is exactly what they are doing here.
the thing is that theres just so much to improve in the frontiers formula, its not like the boost formula that was basically almost perfect since the beginning, the combat can be improved a lot, or even completely revamped, same goes for the platforming, the stats system, the gameplay loop, the characters playable having different combat styles (like for example shadow having a mix of ranged and close combat styles, while silver would be focused on ranged), NPCs to interact with in the open zones and etc thats some things i saw that could be better in one single casual playthrough, i dont think sonic team is dumb, they are well aware what they can do and i dont see a sequel with all those improvements selling less than frontiers plus, frontiers 2 wont be actually a "frontiers 2" thats probably a development name, its a sequel in the sense that it uses the same "formula"
@@utrarafathonestly yeah, this If Sega was smart give Sonic team at least 3 or 4 years to really works on the game, he ground work is already done so give them time to really polish the game and make it the best it can be, in 30 years sega still hasnt learned that the reason why nintendo is still making consoles that sell like hot cakes is because they give their developers time to finish their games
I think it's a little different this time around, not because of anything in the game or Sonic Team, but Frontiers itself probably only got that much attention in the first place because of the movies. You have to remember, those were insanely successful and Frontiers was the only NEW Sonic game at that time, as a result it got an unusual amount of attention even before it released. Another part is honestly just that it's an open world game, and mainstream audiences buy that shit in drones despite hating it every single time but that's a different discussion...
Remember that Kishimoto has taken plenty of feedback from Twitter... including those that adressed the problems in your video (w/ bigger budget from Sonic Team). According to Gamerguyd's insider : Kishimoto could change Sonic's model, bring back Japanese writers in the English script, kill the boost formula and revamp the physics (that are inspired from Rollin' Rascal).
That’s true but Kishimoto shown time and time again that he doesn’t actually understand people like about his games when they’re well received. The last thing we want is a game made by someone like that while also taking input from random sonic fans on twitter. That sounds like an unfocused mess of a game waiting to happen
Kishimoto taking player feedback is great but then you see some of the mind bogglingly silly choices made in Final Horizon and wonder if they're just incompetent at what they're trying to do.
@@sonicheroes the level design(the most important part of a sonic game) was pretty good so sonic team has the talent, it's the direction people are less sure about
@@Joshua-wo2ey i mean, many of the feedback taken for frontiers update were not only stuff that improved the game but were also handled well, so for this time after many years, i'm actually being confident that kishimoto will know how to deal with things.
@@emperortoho Are we talking about the same game here? Final Horizons level design was godawful. It either prioritized artificial difficulty through poor design in the Open Zone, or it prioritized artificial momentum in the Cyberspace levels where you can just spindash on a ramp and skip over 80 percent of the level. It's a perfect example on how not to build levels in ANY game, let alone Frontiers.
I entirely agree, the Sonic series has suffered for this exact thing so many times and I’m tired of it. I have a small amount of hope that “Frontiers 2” will actually be something much newer and unique from Frontiers purely because Kishimoto was online taking feedback about Frontiers and being active in the community for a while there. He was also outright expressing interest in removing the boost for the next game and making something that wholly utilizes the spindash. However, I still don’t think that means it’ll end up being all that different from Frontiers. And I’m worried that if it is quite different from Frontiers, they will stray way to far away from the actual solid foundation that Frontiers is and make something that is absolutely nothing like Frontiers. It’s all or nothing when it comes to Sonic Team. Frontiers 2 would need a whole new art style for the world and even the characters somewhat, world design that is closer to a Sonic version of what Mario Odyssey’s worlds are for Mario, a new and interesting control scheme, etc. And while I think they may achieve some of these things, I doubt they will achieve all of them.
@@mrhalfsaid1389all i can hope for is that they improve things and stay as consistent as possible, i mostly agree with you on this, but i also expect for them to surpass our expectations in unexpected ways, be it both good, and bad...
@@kaxcommentssomethingREALwhat your proposing is a bit much. And I think even Sega knows they can’t please everyone. It’s like with smash bros for example, Sakurai couldn’t please everyone with his choices for which characters got picked but he wanted to provide the characters he believes would bring the most satisfying results to the fans. Sega does have a lot to fulfill and it’s doubtful they’ll be able to make everyone happy… however if I’m being honest my biggest worry is if they show they do try to adjust what they can to a area where fans can simply be satisfied with the result. Plus remember Frontiers was their first game in a bit to have open world (yes I’m aware boom rise of lyric was open word but I just don’t believe in that games existence so I don’t count it.)
The difference between Sega doing sequels for Secret Rings and Sonic 4 is that people DIN'T LIKE THOSE GAMES, Frontiers on the other hand has had *mostly* positive reviews, so I don't see how a sequel *wouldn't* sell well considering the relatively warm reception of Frontiers. Take the adventure duology for example: SA1 came out, was reviewed and sold relatively well, so when Sonic Team developed a sequel it was both critically acclaimed AND it sold really well, because the prior game was considered solid in most peoples eyes.
Secret Rings was a game people at the time bought on spite, because it was coming right after the bomb that was Sonic '06. Reading reviews at the time a lot of journalists were glazing Secret Rings like it the best Sonic game since the Mega Drive days just to shit more on '06.
secret rings, that isn't.... ENTIRELY true. reviews at the time slathered it up 'n down for being a SONIC game, with ONLY sonic, and NONE of those STUPID SONIC FRIENDS(TM), and lots of folks were also of the same mindset. time just advanced long enough that by the time black knight arrived, people got sick of the wii remote.
@@lemon5000-tj6nv Everyone wants that, but this is SONIC TEAM we're talking about here. Having any faith in them is a fools errand, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.
After seeing the level design of the new cyberspace levels and some of the linear challenges in the open zones, yeah i have hope the sequel will be good and not just a rehash. My biggest hope is that they actually lean more on the anime shit they had going in frontiers, cuz those were the highlights for a majority of the playerbase.
Ive been having pretty much the exact thoughts. I personally loved TotK for example, but ive seen many people actually say they didnt love it that much because they felt it was kinda just BotW again, and thats saying something since its BotW2 we are talking about. I've been thinking for a while how much I actually care for another Open Zone game or if people would care for it, and i agree most probably wouldn't. Especially since the novelty of Frontiers does a lot to carry it imo. The issue, though, is now Sonic Team is kinda in a catch 21, now aren't they? Fans for years told em to stick to something and refine it, only to validate their actions back in the day where they would shake things up more. SA1, SA2, Sonic Heroes, have fundemental similsrities but do a lot of different things too. Its funny to think how things come full circle while somehow things seemingly staying the same despite how much they change.
@@spritvio639 I mean, I think ToTK is the better game, but it's not a rare take at all from my experience. And despite my disagreeing with it, I kinda get it.
@@spritvio639 Yeah I prefer botw myself for example. Totk was way too bloated for me to enjoy. Botw already stretched itself pretty thin with (let's be honest shallow and repetitive) cheeseable content but it had the novelty of a brand new world and engine to carry it along. Totk reused the world, added a lot more repetitive content and gave us ultrahand in an attempt to compensate for a incredibly samey experience. An experience that originally garnered it's appeal from a sense of wonder. If ultrahand did not instill that sense of wonder for you then it's just a boring game with a lot more content even easier to cheese than the last game, imo anyway.
in my own opinion they should probably save money not investing CGI cutscenes in purely the marketing, we've already got that mystery about the Starfall Islands down, the last CGI trailer for the game before Final Horizons got announced was PURE HYPE, not to say the one with the new transformation wasn't but you know what i mean. and Forces' ones made the story seem way better and exciting than we actually expected. it's time we got a proper opening since Lost World! ...god has it been that long?
I would argue that Sonic Rush is not a great example of this trend. Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure are the only games with the rush name but it's been one of the most influential games in the entire series. The 3D boost games all have their DNA from the Rush games and if you count Colors on DS the Rush games actually were a trilogy. My point is a direct sequel could work under the right conditions, but that would depend on Sega being smart about it. But, that's kinda the issue, I doubt they will be lol
I think it will sell good, simply by virtue of Frontiers selling so well. Usually, the sales of the previous game have an influence on the next game. Frontiers had such good buzz surrounding it that many will see a sequel and be like "oh thr first one was good, so maybe the second will be even better"
U make a really strong point I can't fully disagree wit but I at least wanna C them do this 1 sequel to Frontiers before droppin it for a multitude of reasons. We'll have to wait & C
7:57 Since Colors DS uses the framework of Rush, while also added Colors mechanics and changes. It shows that maybe the game sold well enough that they know it’s a framework that works. But sequels won’t sell as well as the original. So why not get some easy money with a working framework, and change it up for a DS version of Colors.
I think if they can change the game around enough aesthetically and use different marketing tactics, while still using mostly the same tech, it would still have a chance to sell well. I don't recall Sonic Colors using any ties with the last game to market itself, for example. Same with Generations to an extent (although that had a different gimmick going for it).
"Same tech" I don't think that will cut it. At bare minimum they need to fix the pop-in. But I think expectations should be higher; most likely, Frontiers 2 will be the first Sonic game on Switch 2 and not Switch 1; the first Sonic game where the weakest platform it's on will be significantly more powerful than the PS3/X360. So we should be able to see that upgrade. But alas, Unleashed and Generations are still prettier games than Forces and Frontiers, so I won't hold my breath.
@@kfcnyancat My point was more in reference to sales, not game quality. Unleashed had stronger art direction and was built with the hedgehog engine in mind. But yeah, I would prefer they overhaul the technical shortcomings of the original, whether that means they need to invest in a new engine or it was a result of developing for the Switch. Whether that happens or not, we'll see.
Yo, watch a Pariah vid from 2022, then watch this one. Your voice is the same, except much more pronounced and confident. You were more mellow in tone, but streaming’s definitely been paying off on your voice work!
I get your points, but I would rather Sonic Team try and refine what they have right now instead of doing something totally different. Can you imagine the backlash if Sonic Team did a main line sonic game in same vein as something like genshin impact after frontiers just because its popular? My hope is they will continue to work on this formula even past the next game and keep the momentum moving forward.
I think the angle that this topic was being approached from was "Would a Sonic Frontiers 2 sell like SEGA/Sonic Team expects them to?" It's predicated on the assumption that they will expect greater sales numbers from the (alleged) increase in budget that Sonic Team is getting right now. History has shown that a sequel just doing "a refined version of the exact same game" hasn't sold better with the angle SEGA has taken in the past. It may _be_ a better game, but would it _sell_ better? The only evidence we can use to predict that is past experiences, which is why it pains me to agree with Pariah. I do agree with you, though. A _refined_ version of Frontiers might not sell better, but that's the very least we could ask from Sonic Team right now.
"We are looking forward to hearing the feedback from the users for Episode 2, but we are currently not planning to release another episode. We just want to see how the users accept this episode." - Takashi Iizuka, interview with Digital Spy, March 2012.
This is an interesting video but I feel like the counterargument to worrying about a sequel and wanting something new away from Frontiers is Heroes/Lost World etc
The best thing they can do is iterate on Frontiers' formula. It may be called Frontiers 2 internally, but it'll have to have a different name and look like a very different game from Frontiers. Like instead of open-zone it'll be wide-linear levels, ditch the low-energy melancholy story with something more similar to Unleashed or the Adventure games, overhaul the combat and make tricking a big part of the gameplay kinda like Sonic Rush, etc...
The inherent issue with a hypothetical Frontier 2 is that Frontiers 1 hinges on being a promise that the NEXT game is the one that delivers on what people actually want. If Frontiers 2 ends up being anything less than a complete overhaul in every aspect, people are going to be a LOT more critical of Frontiers' structural issues. This isn't like the boost formula where it was already good, but needed actually good level design to back it up and they just dropped the ball. Sonic Team built a bad foundation that's going to be extremely difficult to actually improve upon in the long term.
Sonic Rush had a 3rd game, Sonic Colors DS is basically Rush 3 Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06 (and maybe Shadow the Hedgehog) basically followed the stablished formula of both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 while not having "Adventure 3" on their names and adding their own twist Super Mario Odyssey also basically follows the same formula stablished by Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy, while all of those add their own twist to the formula, I would argue it's a simillar case to Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06 Mario has the New Super Mario Bros. series, until Super Mario Bros. Wonder the Mario series was just fatigued with repeated 2D unoriginal games
I just want open zone platforms to look natural & for the open zone to have diverse interesting environments. Like maybe a city somewhere. And I want boost but you only gain it after building momentum.
Sega is a publisher. They don't make anything. Ryu ga Gotoku Studio makes the Yakuza games. They know how to make good combat. Sonic Team makes Sonic. And they've already messed up Sonic combat.
I feel like Sega already tried this strat by doing sonic generations to sonic lost world, along with sonic heroes to shadow to 06 and that didnt bowed well in either case.
I think they should stick to this open zone formula, but just try to create something new with it that entices people even more. Maybe a fully open-world Sonic game? Maybe have a different tone for the next game? Whatever it is, just build on top of that foundation that Frontiers laid down. I don’t think a direct Frontiers 2 would be a good idea, just maybe something in a similar vein to it.
To be fair, I really doubt it will literally be called ,, Frontiers 2" You are assuming it's gonna just be Frontiers with improvements, but Sonic Team's track record shows that they rarely do the same thing twice (even when they should)
But I thought sonic fans were mad when Lost World was a completely different breed to Generations It sounds like u want them to scrap open zone Sonic entirely. I think for one more game it’ll be fine But then after that It’ll probably start to get stale Idk just my take
I want the collision of the ground to be fixed far better. One of the big things I noticed about the game is how wonky the ground collision is and how it kinda disrupts moving around. It needs to be far more smooth. Honestly the main thing I wish the combat did was have more so moves that are based around movement. Like outside the homing attack and cyloop there arent a lot of things that you can attack with that arent like also movement options. Other stuff too but thsoe might be my biggest gripes. Also Sega all stars transformed is weird cuz like out of the two, the sequel is the one I see people talk about far more and i feel that All star transformed isnt actually a good example of what you're talking about with sega not understanding the appeal of the very thing they made and why it sold well. Id argue Team Sonic Racing is that. it's clearly trying to be a follow up to those last two, but for some reason it removes the other sega characters probably assuming people just come for sonic, it changes things in much worse ways, and it doesnt really understand why people like sonic nor the sega all star racing games and in turn it sold BAD. Its especially odd since transformed itself was nominated for awards and Im pretty sure actually sold decently well for a sonic game. Its even WEIRDER that they took all the sega characters out since the racing games arent the only sega all stars games, they had a like sports game even before then Im pretty sure and clearly that formula's worked for at least 3 different games prior to team sonic racing. Sega really wonders why they struggle vs nintendo for brand awareness outside of maybe a few IP. Well stuff like this is the reason. They misunderstand that people like other sega IPs and actively remove them from a cross over series only for that series to die in the process like those ill forgotten brands.
I agree with you fully Pariah If a Frontiers 2 was to work, it would have to be what Sonic 2 was to the original Sonic, bigger, better, faster and with some of killer app in terms of gameplay or visuals (like Tails and the Spindash were for Sonic 2) But if it just turns out to be something of a Generations esque refinement of the Frontiers gameplay, it may end up backfiring
Out of curiosity, is this the reason why you were disappointed with mania after advance 3? I recall how you talked about the way the classic trilogy would keep trying to be "bigger and better" than the predecessors, and how the advance trilogy was the same way; taking the foundation of sonic 3 and doing something new each time to evolve the formula. So when mania undid everything the advance trilogy shook up and went all the way back to sonic 3k, you felt it was a bit disappointing. Am I right? Hell even superstars was exactly what you described for me. I couldn't really figure out why, but I didn't care a whole lot when it got announced. It was cool that classic was getting another game, let alone completely original, but it just looked like more classic sonic, but instead of pixel art it has generations/forces graphics (albeit, a bit polished up). It's the same reason I advocated for generations to be the cause of a split timeline between classic and modern, as it would allow classic sonic to do something new and interesting without stepping on the toes of the "canon" sonic team likes to pretend exists
Theyll probably go the tears of the kingdom rout if anything. And given that following breath of the wild worked the first time, theyll probably do it the second time around, which lets not forget, tears did outsell breath despite being esentialy a massive dlc pack, even just ruing the entire world, and a lot of assets and such.
I imagine that you have already thought about doing a kind of video sequel. How do you save Sonic? It is literally something with an absolute lack of identity, not even the stories have a similar tone. What I mean by lacking identity is that if you ask three different guys what Sonic is, they'll tell you three completely different things.
I think ignoring context surrounding this game just because of their “track record” isnt very realistic regarding how the next game is going to end up.
Here's the thing: I've been thinking about what you've said here since long before you uploaded this video, but I don't think that is necessarily the fault of it being a sequel because look at Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations. Based on gameplay I'd call them sequels to Unleashed but they aren't. They took the groundwork of Unleashed and made something new and I feel like a Sonic Frontiers 2 could do the same thing as long as a) its not called Sonic Frontiers 2, and b) they do enough to not only upgrade and evolve the gameplay, but give it a unique visual identity. I know you're arguing that they can't or they wont but looking at Sonic Frontiers alone, both its base game and the DLC, it seems like they are actually in the mindset of trying to fix Sonic up. Then again I'll also be right there with you in not being too surprised if that's not how it is but instead they do just make a straight up Sonic Frontiers 2. The potential is there and they've laid some great groundwork, so I feel like its possible that it could go either way.
Isn't the point of having a formula to be put well and be consistent, hell kirby had a lot of games like Return to Dreamland and then triple deluxe , robobot and star allies. And those were good, mind you star allies needed DLC to be more fun. Sure, i know that they need to have to take other stuff. But IT NEEDS CONSISTENCY FIRST, so having a Sonic Frontiers 2 isn't bad, they need to stick with something that works first and then work on it. And hell, even shadow generations show that they can do other stuff while the mainline still is in development.
going with another sega franchises, persona and yakuza do some of the same things but they do change their formulas when it needs some changing to be done, yakuza was known as a beat em up, but with 7 is an RPG, but it sill builds on it in yakuza 8 infinite wealth. I know the attrative thing on those is the story more than the gaemplay, but again. I think that they need to build it more
That string of Kirby games has been consistent, but keep in mind that they've also been very different. Return to dreamland was basically adventure (Kirby's second game) with amazing mirror-like 4p multiplayer (and even better, all at once). Plus we've never seen Kirby in a 2.5D perspective until that game and it looked gorgeous (it was also on the Wii, and, y'know) Triple deluxe ditched multiplayer for obvious reasons but added multiple planes, and they changed up the super abilities mechanic by giving Kirby's main mechanic, inhaling, a super power and throwing in a lot of insane spectacle around it (Kirby inhaling a boss's health bar, anyone?) Planet robobot featured Kirby in a sort of sci-fi robotic land and the super ability/hypernova mechanic was, yet again, evolved into Kirby having a mech suit plus it having the ability to copy abilities, just like Kirby Those games were all interesting and unique from the rest of the series in several ways, and you can tell they were received so well because of those reasons because Star Allies didn't have any of the creativity that those other 3 had. If anything, it was return to dream land but a bit closer to super star in its partner mechanics and made a big deal out of teamwork, now that you could have several characters on screen while in single player. The game itself was fine, but it wasn't as special as the 3 before. What makes it unique is all of the references and fan service, which is cool and all, sure, but I definitely wanted something new And after Kirby star allies, they went with a new direction for Kirby, finally putting him in 3D, which alone is generally new for Kirby and probably would've been fine by itself to attract people, but stack the desolate setting of the game on top of that? That sounds cool and interesting right there
@@igirjei3717 yeah, but i want them to still have this formula because changing everytime can be detrimental if they dont have the experience enough to do it
12:31 i dont think mario odyssey is a good example at all, nintendo uses the same 3d formula since 1996 and with every game they make an unique twist while maintaning the same structure to make it different from the past games i think frontiers 2 will be a sequel to frontiers just like mario sunshine is a sequel to mario 64, i really hope they dont drop the bag now with how much feedback they have from fans, its pretty clear where the potential of frontiers was missed and what are the flaws of the game
If kishimoto is following through with what he’s saying on twitter and actually does the stuff he says he’s doing then I think it’ll be alright. But I don’t believe him
Yeah Knowing all the devlopment history of sonic team and sega yeah i dont trust sonic team anymore even wth the resources given they would waste it in favor of money and dumb decisions and focusing on content & ambitions more than gameplay polish i feel like they learned nothing from 06 Sonic team been a incompetent terrible studio ever since lizuka became director and sega changed the sonic branding of " of trying its best to be a good video game franchise and failing bcuz if sega s'costly failures " to a " cash grab mascot full shitty bad games for greed and a dev studio relying on incompetency and inconsistencies just to play it safe to move away from 2006 without actually learning from it to be better next time , but no they learn the wrong lessons to get a dollar from ur company that been poorly managing this franchise for yrs" Sonic 06 and unleashed really marked the end of an era of this franchise as a whole An era of again : trying its best to be a good video game franchise both 2d and 3d and ends up failing in later 3d bcuz of sega s'costly failures and dark ages after they lost to sony and nintendo and quit the market and expensive partnerships to avoid bankruptcy. And 2010s onwards The structure of this franchise asnt changed entirely Bcuz sonic team keeps learning the wrong lessons and sega is a plain terrible company . But the game isnt out yet so ppl need to hold back the negative. Cuz its also why thos godamn community sucks and also ruined the franchise .
I don’t think Superstar performed poorly mainly _because_ it was a sequel. I think lots of fans wanted more 2D Sonic like Mania, but Superstars just fumbled really bad on a lot of things. And even generally, it's just not as good as a game compared to Mania. The budgeted presentation, flawed stability, and core gameplay are just major steps backwards that were entirely unnecessary. Sequels generally perform worse, yes, but I don’t think Superstars suffered from that specifically. I do see your argument, though. The example with Odyssey really made things clear. A direct sequel would be great, but 3D Mario sequels always tried to shake things up with a major gameplay changer. Sonic Team would be wise to have the sequel stick out in some way.
I think that the only type of gameplay that fans wouldn't mind getting more of is the Adventure style gameplay! Soo many fans have been absolutely begging for an SA3 game for years, so if Sega makes that sequel game and finally turns the Adventure series into a trilogy after developing remakes of SA1 & SA2, a third one would 100% sell very well! The players very much want more of the type of gameplay that those games were made with.
I do agree with the points you make But at the same time you have to acknowledge that small changes can actually go a really long way If they just fix the way the game looks: . Make the environment more integrated . Make it a bit more cartoonish . Make it feel like a Sonic world in general maybe add loops too And build the game with momentum and multiple characters in mind And have original assets Which are all changes that are expected to be honest but I believe it really can transform the game into the "new" thing you're talking about But in the end it all depends on how good Sonic Team will pull that so only future will tell Also, love the description of the video it's hilarious!
Sonic team has a good record of making good sequels like sonic adventures sequel sonic adventure 2 it was also a good game or sonic advance sequels remember those games? Yeah...those were very fun all 3 sequels all together so i believe they could make this sequel better than the last one with some improvements etc...and i just don't know what to expect i mean i obliviously they will improve somethings in the previous sonic frontiers
It’ll probably have a different name vaguely related to what the game is about because that’s the pattern they’ve gone with for years, and it will double down on aspects of the original that were very divisive like Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Colors did, and it’ll be very up in the air which game is better. Maybe it’ll copy Adventure 2 a bunch since Frontiers already mirrors Adventure 1 in many ways besides just gameplay and design, though Forces already tried to pander to Adventure 2 nostalgia so I don’t know. Then we’ll get a sequel to that that just does whatever random bullshit that nobody asked for like Lost World and Heroes. Then they’ll decide to take drugs and we’ll get something even more out of left field like Boom and Shadow 05. Then when things get so bad that people are begging for a “Frontiers 3” we’ll get it, and it’ll be much worse than even the first game in that play style like Sonic Forces and Sonic 06. Then we’ll get a new formula and repeat the cycle
I used to be afraid of this happening but now they seem to have different teams working on different pillars of Sonic so I don't think Sonic team will immediately divert from open zone.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197 well thats cool, after all Sonic dream team was a good thing that have some of frontiers aspects but cool enough to be fun
Here’s my take: Given that it’s been obvious Sega has been keeping an eye on the fan base and what they strive for as far as things are concerned I think that things will be a little different but what your suggesting is sounding like a complete overhaul which for a company that had just delve into the idea of full on open world and they went on record saying that area of the game was their main focus that’s asking a lot. I definetly agree that some things need to be polished art style being one of them but at the same time o have to be realistic and say yeah things aren’t going to be to changed as again they are grasping the concept of this open world ordeal. However given how Kishmoto has been listening to us on Twitter and how Sega has shown that they are not interested in trying to get games out quickly but actually take their fricken time with them, I think they can do it. I know everyone is saying they have a lot of promises to keep and I do agree that this will be the ultimate test to their promise… but if all goes well for the generations and ensure they continue to learn from their past errors I can see a sequel working out.
The main stream audience like frontiers (at least much more than the usual 3d sonic game) add to that sonic movie 3 increasing the popularity, them most likely adding new characters and maybe shadow is one of them which would hype a lot of people. I expect it to be an improvement (sonic team could always prove us otherwise) and that would rate it higher by critics which would also increase the sales. I think frontiers 2 selling as much if not more is possible. Sonic’s popularity is increasing because of the movies, shows, the current games not being 0/10s at least etc.
Don't assume the 3rd movie will be a hit. Big Hollywood blockbusters have been flopping left and right lately. It could happen to Sonic. And just being better than the previous game doesn't guarantee people will like it more. Rivals 2 and Black Knight both got worse reception than their predecessors, despite clearly being better games.
@@Pariah6950that’s true, but I’ve seen the reaction to sonic 3’s news by the mainstream audience and they seem to really care about it because of sonic 2 and especially shadow. The sequel selling better is not that likely if still possible, frontiers did really well for a sonic game, but selling close to it is very likely imo. Also unlike secret rings and sonic 4 it didn’t just sell well, but it was also received well
@@Pariah6950Sonic movie 3 is not going to flop because everyone is excited for this movie and the writers also directors know what they're doing Sonic movie 2 made a billion dollars the same will be for a third movie This movie includes Shadow and based off Sonic adventure 2 and might change stuff This movie's not going to be a Sonic adventure movie completely these movies are their own thing and not tied to the games this will get people into the games and the characters like Shadow This will get general audiences shadows character It done the same for knuckles his movies give these two characters a reputation in the games as well
@@dragonnet289keep in mind nobody's saying it *will* flop, just that we won't know until it's out, so we can't really assume the effect it'll have on another thing (the sales of a sonic game, in this case) until we know how good it is first
Being this negative for game this that hasn’t even been announced yet is crazy ngl. This sonic team is different from the past. When the director makes a twitter to get feedback from fans and actually follows through with the updates. I see no reason not to believe in this team
@@zomebody5529 Seriously bro. Like how are you this negative for something that doesn’t exist yet. Don’t get me wrong everyone is entitled to their own opinion but this is crazy. I’m someone that judges that for what they are instead of comparing it to something else. He was doing that the entire video too
@@jaredjackson9734 Yeah Knowing all the devlopment history of sonic team and sega yeah i barely trust sonic team anymore , even wth the resources given they would waste it in favor of money and dumb decisions and focusing on content & ambitions more than gameplay polish i feel like they learned nothing from 06 Sonic team been an incompetent studio ever since lizuka became director and sega changed the sonic branding of " of trying its best to be a good video game franchise and failing bcuz if sega s'costly failures " to a " cash grab mascot full shitty bad games for greed and a dev studio relying on incompetency and inconsistencies just to play it safe to move away from 2006 without actually learning from it to be better next time , but no they learn the wrong lessons to get a dollar from ur company that been poorly managing this franchise for yrs" Sonic 06 and unleashed really marked the end of an era of this franchise as a whole An era of again : trying its best to be a good video game franchise both 2d and 3d and ends up failing in later 3d bcuz of sega s'costly failures and dark ages after they lost to sony and nintendo and quit the market and expensive partnerships to avoid bankruptcy. And 2010s onwards The structure of this franchise asnt changed entirely Bcuz sonic team keeps learning the wrong lessons and sega is a plain terrible company . But the game isnt out yet so ppl need to hold back the negative. Cuz its also why this godamn community sucks and also ruined the franchise .
@@Contenwtdeketedd I feel you bro. I completely understand why you don’t trust sonic team or Sega as a company. There was a time where I stop playing sonic all because I was tired of playing the mediocre games. So you are definitely entitled to feel that way. But sonic frontiers saved the franchise along with movies. Not matter you feel you about frontiers as a game. You have to admit it brought the franchise back to good state and that’s something to be proud of. But, I once felt how you feel now bro.
The thing about the platforming being integrated is, the platforming was added to the game later in development, due to playtester comments. The reason they aren’t baked into the game is because originally they weren’t meant to be there. So expecting the next game to have it be integrated isn’t too much of a stretch.
I definitely think it would be interesting if Sonic Team did actually take a step back to make the next step. Yeah, Sonic Team IS technically taking a step back and taking a good, long look after seeing the numbers. Sonic by and large IS a franchise that has pushed itself, and usually in that pushing, it might have a tendency to ironically fall for those passivity traps like the infamous Marble Zone Spring in the need to push itself forward. It seems to have a core aspect, that being speed-based platforming meant to reward players for getting better at the game and playing more of the levels, but unlike their famous red plumber rival... Sonic is somewhat of a case of ironically running itself into a rut when overdoing in one aspect, and when they don't run something into a rut, Sonic will make missteps a la Lost World. Sonic CAN be able to make a good game and make it well, but I think something that really does need to be looked at, if Sonic is going to be that good that it could ever potentially reverse the damages of some of its entries... It needs to understand that core aspect so then Sonic Team can test out by branching out. It's honestly the thing I'm curious to see, most of all. Can Sonic Team find a core gameplay style that can pull what 3D Mario has with seeing what can be expanded upon as opposed to just pulling a ToTK to Frontiers' BoTW
Hey Pariah most people knows American influence in sonic games and thanks to you a lot of people well know more Japanese influence in games but there's one country most people don't talk about when it comes to Sonic taking influences and that is Greece specially with Ancient Greek
You're right and all but your measurement of success as a series I don't think adds up to very much when you consider the most acclaimed original trilogy was basically 3 games and the third one sold the worst out of those so should they have not made S3&K? Should they have maybe made S3&K on the saturn instead since it was a new console? But they kinda did that with CD and it did even worse. Going straight from 2 to Adventure on saturn immediately would've been better saleswise. I dunno, I do think sales and innovation are important but I'm just kinda glad they make what they make regardless cause almost every single time the next iteration of the game in a series even if it's just 2 or 3 games will just be better.
I understand that you don't have faith in sonic teams quality but one thing you shouldn't deny is that they rarely do the same thing twice even if they realistically should, so you may have to be more worried lol
I’d murder for a new superstars 2 lol. Also I’m slightly optimistic about frontiers 2 cuz apparently they’ve been reading lots of feedback and criticisms, so maybe they might change more than they thought they would? I also don’t think it should be called frontiers 2
I mean, I think Frontiers 2 would sell well. Maybe not as well as 1, but I think the majority still enjoyed the game. I think? I don't follow Frontiers players much because I, quite frankly, don't like the game almost at all, but I also have this impression that a lot of the praise the game got was just from the 'honey moon' phase. I think a lot of the players' impressions of the game has sorta shifted towards the negative with the DLC not helping things.
These kinds of discussions are the most interesting to me with sonic. Sonic is such an interesting brand to look at marketing and business wise because they do such a weird job with things
The problem with sonic frontiers is the foundation if they're not changing the foundation the sequel is gonna be of similar quality. Pretty Bleak Probably another fire ost tho 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥
I believe that the next open zone game will be a massive improvement over Frontiers. Sonic Team was never before in the place that they are now. Ever since the classic games the quality and polish of sonic games went downhill. Never before did the quality started improving. Sega is EXCITED to make a bunch of money of of sonic right now. The quality, ambition and execution will be better from this point on.
Companies don't develop sequels only to cash into the aquired fans, they do it cause its way less costly than creative a new game from the ground up, recycling development elements reduce the cost and time of production in an important manner.
I think there's a case by case point, It really depends on the product as a whole and also a bunch of other factors, but even if you create a formula and try to improve it, doesn't mean something will be bad, as long as you give enough things with each game to make things fresh. The Boost Formula was a example of that, o console we had Sonic Unleashed which people love it the daytime stages, they picked that, tried to refine and made both Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations that people love it. The video is based on the belief the we gonna have a direct sequel to Frontiers, but as from the information we have, we don't know if it is a direct sequel, we just know theyre using the same formula, but the setting, story and environment could change, with another name but with the same formula, we had game like those like Sonic Colors for DS wich is basically the third interation of the Rush formula, or Sonic 06 being the third game with the Adventure Fornula, or as mentioned before Colors and Generation wich was the second and third game with the formula presented by Unleashed. Basically, only time will tell how this the next sonic game will be, if will be a direct sequel to frontiers, or just use the formula but change the rest of the game. I honestly would be more concerned by the fact that they would throw everything out of the window after Frontiers, the Boost formula reached it's peak with Generations, with people wanting more, but then Sonic Team decided to throw everything out the window and then gave us Sonic Lost world and well, we know what happened later. Just as concerning it could be a spiritual sequel or direct sequel to frontiers, so it would be a completely new game. We can only hope Sonic Team have a clear vision after frontiers and see what they'll do.
by that logic Frontiers is a direct sequel to Forces and Forces was a direct sequel to Lost World and Lost World was a direct sequel to Generations despite none of them playing remotely the same or having a similar tone. the point is they will likely be reusing nearly 20 year old assets- again. maybe that wouldn’t be a problem if the game actually felt good to play.
Honestly, all I want from the Frontiers sequel is: 1. The world/open zones have a more Sonic-like instead of the generic environment from the Frontiers 1 2. More playable time with Tails, Knuckles, and Amy: I want to get these guys right before we start introducing more characters like Shadow and Blaze 3. The boss battles absolutely need to maintain the same level of spectacle the Titans gave us: I'm not saying that Sonic has to go super for every boss fight, but I think it can still be done
I do think a sequel is a good idea. It doesn't even have to have the name "Frontiers 2" but the gameplay of it. What sonic needs right now is consistency so that's why when it was stated this was the formula they wanted to go with for the oncoming years, a lot of people were excited to hear that including myself. With what was shown for the updates even after the last one it was still getting tweaks to improve what was there (e.g knuckles glide). So I genuinely think the 2nd game WILL sell well because it's clear they're listening and the additions they'll add to the next game will be enough to shake things up like (No excessive pop in, World being built with momentum in mind, Finished playable characters due to the first game, etc.) Hopefully Sonic team can also use that bigger budget to make something truly great.
For me, I really don't care about Frontiers, whereas I miss the storybook games. Maybe I have a weird taste. Anyway, I thought it would be the other way around. Sonic Team often goes in a completely different direction. Everyone loves Generations, but then they made Lost World. So I would have figured Frontiers 2 wouldn't happen.
Sonic Frontiers 2 would be Sonic's version of Tears Of The Kingdom. And if they do the story right. Silver will be there as he's Sonic's version of Rauru. And Sonic will get Silver's Telekinesis just like Link got Rauru's.
Even with the original 2D Sonic games. After 1, each got fewer and fewer sales. Also cel shaded Frontiers 2 with a really cool style would probably do way better than boring ass realistic Unity demo visuals.
Yep, Pariah’s speaking my mind again. These sequels could be so much MORE. Even my story expectations for Frontiers were more organic and interesting than what we got. “Frontiers 2” could be huge, but it’s just gonna be Mario Galaxy 2.
I actually agree, I think they'll change enough as to where it feels different but have the same core gameplay like Galaxy 2. But I do think they'll use Silver to rip somethings off from the Zelda franchise.
I feel like most sequels fall into this pattern in general, of simply being more of the same. Naturally because of this they probably aren't going to sell as much as their predecessor, but that doesn't mean they'll flop completely. Heck they might even sell just as much just by being a good game. I mean, look at something like Sonic Generations. That game is just more of Unleashed but it still sold quite well. I believe Superstars also sold well (Geek Critique made a post regarding the bestselling games of Nov 2023 or smth, saying that according to Superstars' position it should've sold at least a million), Sega's standards were just really high. In fact i think it might've outsold Mania though I could be wrong. At the end of the day if people like something they r going to want more of that thing. People who always want something new r only part of the audience at the end of the day. People who simply want more of the same r still a huge part of the audience. If the game looks good, chances r people will want to buy it, especially with a huge series like Sonic. Also as a side note I kinda wanna rewatch this video cuz u make this game looks so much fun, even without jump physics. Might even boot up Frontiers again just because of this gameplay lmao
I don't think he wants it to age well. Under normal circumstances I would 100% agree with him but if Kishimoto's tweets and the final horizon are anything to go by the next game will be drastically changed. It's really on his shoulders as to where the franchise goes next.
I think other open zone is definitely the way to go since that idea still has so much potential imo, but you’re 100% right they probably won’t change enough to make it new and interesting. Current Sonic team have no idea what people actually like about their games when they happen to make a good one and it shows
Moral of the story: "Never play to the gallery... Always go a little further into the water than you feel you're capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth, and when you don't feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you're just about in the right place to do something exciting." Basically, it's a balance between keeping it the same while also innovating and changing something, and transforming something. That's a quote from David Bowie. It was brought up in Christian Whitehead's interview about Penn's Big Breakaway. And Sabrina Diduro (the producer of Freedom Planet games) agrees with that. And it seems this is something that Sonic Team didn't get and it doesn't look like they are going to learn that anytime soon. Sonic Team has lost the vision as they have no idea what Sonic games are and should be. There is some parts of Sonic that they have rejected and thrown away because of 06 trauma. And it also appears they have a poor sense of what their games want to be.
Another aspect of sonic team is that most of their members are have ethier changed or no longer in sonic team from level design,animation,art style,sound,and story they aren't the same people from before
@@sugarsmile7852 You could say that the veterans of the past who knew what they were doing are no longer in Sonic Team and here comes the newblood who replaced those veterans and they have proven that they are amateurs and have no idea what they are doing. There is one who has been a Sonic Team member for quite some time and still is and that Sonic Team member is Takashi Iizuka to be honest, he is doing more harm than good when it comes to Sonic.
sometimes I wish the Sonic brand would be sold to Nintendo... but then I remember we would probably lose easy access to all those fangames so no thanks
This guy complaining that Sega will reuse Frontiers for the next game with some improvements, while Nintendo did the exact same thing with TOTK and getting praised. Literally most sequels reuse the exact same engine, it saves time and money and allows them to focus on everything else instead, so I do think they will make a much better version of what we had.
Right, and how well did TOTK sell relative to BOTW? It's not about *completely* changing it up, it's about doing something new with that framework. Look at Kirby's return to dream land through robobot. Then look at star allies, and then look at it immediately being followed up by forgotten land. It seems like they didn't really have any ideas for the return to dream land formula anymore so they pulled they trigger and made Kirby 3D
@@igirjei3717 I'm only saying that Sonic "fans" always complain about anything. The new game will improve everything, just like how SA2 improved what they did before, so Sonic 3 improved what they did before.
@@generalvic8250 of course, I don't doubt they'll improve everything, it's whether or not they do something interesting with the framework they improved, but hey, I got my fingers crossed for, at the very least, a solid (or broken) and fun sonic game that keeps sonic on the radar. Also, note that this fanbase is massive and full of tons of very different people with very different opinions, many of them insanely passionate and devoted to the franchise. At the end of the day, we all want sonic to be the best it can be, and our individual visions for sonic are wildly different from one another (mostly thanks to how different the series has gotten over the years). Some people complain endlessly about stuff that literally doesn't matter, but I think most of the CRITICISMS are important to acknowledge and at least understand
@@igirjei3717 Criticism is one thing, complaining about every single game or character that shows up is what irks me. The only other fanbase I've seen do this sort of thing is the Star Wars community.
Alright I have a couple of things to say that may be considered nitpicks or something similar. Number one: every duology you mentioned was not done by sonic team. This is because sonic team has a much more awkward and well-known pattern that everyone calls the sonic cycle. Do a couple of games that are received well then go on to something weird because they don't think with their head. "Should we try to refine the adventure formula as much as we can? Nahhhh that's too much effort let's do some weirdo shit and bring big the cat back." (I don't hate sonic heroes, but the idea of the game isn't very well thought out). "Hey, we've refined our boost formula, and everyone loves our past two games should we try to take the next step and evolve the formula into something with more depth? Fuck NO! I'm bored of making those games let's throw everything out the window and do whatever we want. We can even make a character more powerful than big the cat!" This team really just go in whatever direction they feel like without thinking for more than a minute. To expand on my point about Sonic team; whenever they make sequels, they usually have a fair number of differences. Sonic adventure 2 has a completely different structure to its levels because it removes hub worlds, puts multiple gameplay styles into each of the stories, and half of the gameplay styles are removed. it isn't just a game that just does the exact same thing. Saying that would be the same as saying Mario 64, sunshine, and Odessey are the exact same, although the Mario games do change up the "main" playstyle in terms of move set more than the adventure games do. The same can be said about the boost games to a lesser extent; they each have different structures to their levels although the core gameplay is very much the same especially with generations and Forces. Second-ish point is kind of a nitpick but... Nintendo did do what you say sonic does; it's called tears of the kingdom. A game with the exact same map and controls and reward system with the only difference being new mechanics. This reminds me of another example; Mario galaxy 2 a game that was originally going to be DLC but then became its own game. Now both of these games are very successful despite not being very original because of Nintendo's quality assurance that is rather consistent unless the series is called Pokémon. Sonic Team doesn't have any quality assurance they just wanted to add more people to the credits, so it's more than likely that if they attempted this strategy, it would go horribly wrong just like with other's previous attempts with the franchise. Third point: To me it seems like you really don't enjoy the concept of the open zone in fact I'm pretty sure you've stated that it doesn't fit sonic. I'm bringing this up because in the video you say that the structure of the open zone is likely to remain exactly the same. Now you could be saying this because you believe that sonic team won't be putting any amount of thought into making the next game and will just say "Yeah just copy and paste the final horizon into 4 new zones but make the 3rd zone blue instead of grey" which would be really fucking sad for a team that put in the effort to create the final horizon but not impossible. However, I feel as though it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to change the structure of frontiers into something a bit better, hell they were experimenting with Final horizon, and I think what they did their felt a little more purposeful and less overly complex. I don't expect them to change the game into something completely different, but I feel like they would try to address at least one of the complaints from the general audience such as the Bubsy graphics especially since we've been told that they're going to have at least a slightly bigger team and maybe Sega won't treat them like they're a cancer. I'm not trying to be too optimistic towards Sonic Team, but I genuinely believe that they aren't soulless they're just not very intelligent which is still annoying considering how long they've been at this. Maybe this open zone thing isn't the best thing for sonic but it's an ever-changing franchise so what the development team gain from this will help them to create a 3D sonic game where the heart aligns to the quality of the game. Okay that last part was way too optimistic but whatever.
![[Full Episode] Hell's Kitchen Thailand EP.14 | 12 พ.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MNspIlqlJcc/mqdefault.jpg)
i'm a sega insider, they're adding wisps and zavok for a bold new direction
Honestly though, if executed PROPERLY wisps could be interesting in an open zone format (idk how they'd be able to do drill though, that kinda requires 2D and the forced 2D sections of frontiers were always the worst).
Oh yes, we got to experiance and know all Zavok's deep inner thoughts and feelings towards Sonic after jogging for those hundreds of Memory Tokens. After all we all know he's such a well-thought, complex character.
Very believable , nice try..
Wisps weren't a bad mechanic imo, the only time they were bad was in Lost World
@@ktli5648
Yeah, Wisps could've easily stayed in Modern Sonic had they moved closer to being more like Elemental Shields, instead of being hyper gimmicky segments that slowed the pace to a crawl.
Prob off topic but I don't understand why people acting like a Frontiers sequel allegedly being in development is some huge shocking revelation
It's funny since the leaker herself, Midori, did not reveal this information for a while because she also thought it was obvious
Ya pretty sure it’s been in development since a few months after frontiers launched. That’s how game development works lol, Sonic Team hasn’t just been sitting around twiddling their thumbs 😅
I doubt that it’s really shocking but tbf Some people ARE REALLY OUT of the loop. I once heard someone say He thought he was the only person who liked frontiers.
And also We assumed it was in development but now we now for sure
Think people are just starved for game news
Sega said that sonic frontiers It'll be the future for Sonic gameplay
before the game even comes out...
Can't wait for sonic to get the gravity gun and be tasked with having to place the platforms in the air himself
Ah yeah baby, sonic maker
They'll use Silver to do that.
I actually predict Silver will be in the next game not because they want him there but because it'll be a great way they can rip off the Zelda series.
TH-cam glitched and showed timecodes from another video, first of them being "What even is Garry's Mod?", and then I see you talking about Sonic with the gravity gun
To be fair, I would buy a Sonic level creation tool, like Sonic Studio, or the Sonic Frontiers level creator plugin for Blender. They have decades of assets made for these games, and Kishimoto said they have an internal level creator for Adventure style and Boost style games.
"Sonic! Get the Gravity Gun."
"You should get the Gravity Gun, Sonic."
"Sonic, the Gravity Gun!"
Good video but I'd like to point out that Nintendo HAS definitely fallen into this cycle too before. Super Mario Galaxy 2, all of the NSMB sequels, and most recently, Tears of the Kingdom. All games that don't really do much to be different from their predecessors, they're just more of the same thing.
dont forget mario 3d world, the big 3d mario game that was supposed to push the wii u was just 3d land but with more polish
Kirby...just Kirby (I love Kirby but they are mostly games that just improve and add to the same formula and yes the next 3D Kirby is gonna do that as well)
What would you even say about Mega Man?
@@TGVARAMega Man feels as if Capcom took this video’s advice of making something different… but they kept making the old thing as well every time. At some point, you get an overwhelming landslide of disparate and similar things that inevitably all blends together. It’s still better (for me) than not releasing anything for 6 years.
@@rubyrogers8879Kirby isn’t made in house at Nintendo. It’s made by Hal.
All I'm wondering is if the pop-in is still gonna be there in Frontiers sequel lol
Everyone talking pop-in, huh?
We want the Sonic Series POPPIN OFF not POPPING IN!
Most likely yes. Same engine, same problems, although they might now have time to mask it better.
Well imma say.
The pop in is gonna be, way better in the sequel, that’s for sure.
Because the reason why frontiers pop in is so bad, is because the new stuff they added in, was done at the last minute, so they only made the highest quality model, and ditched, or did not make lower quality versions of it, or not doing what the wyvern, autoscroller platforms transitions, did.
Because frontiers, trees pop in is decent. For frontiers standards, And the ancient buildings, and tunnels pop in, is good or decent. So they know how to do pop in, it’s just that they listened to a play tester, that said the open zones were way to empty, so they added as much stuff as possible, in the last year, of development. And I’m glad they did that decision, because frontiers is a way more fun game, due to that. And is not a wasteland of an open world, with very little amount to do.
Not gonna lie a lot of your assumption what a Frontiers 2 would be like seem really unlikely given both Frontiers development history and Sonic team as a developer.
For one the reason Frontiers as it exist has all of its platforming entirely separate from the actual worlds geometry is because it was literally a late addition into the game. Originally was the game suppose to focus on just running around the empty world and fight enemies. Its only got its platforming elements after Beta testers complained about the game being boring and even the non Sonic fans starting to ask were the platforming is that they expected a Sonic game to have (Sonic Team seriously didn't realize that even the most casual of audiences expects platforming to be part of a Sonic game)
Given that for a sequel the platforming segments will be part of the plan from the start would I at least have to assume that they would melt them better into the environments. Frontiers as it already does this after all the mini map unlocking puzzles that were always part of the design.
Sonic Team is also far more known for suddenly changing entirely for any given reason. Like how Lost Worlds entirely dumped the boost or how Heroes made a 180 in ton and focus to appeal to new players more.
A lot of your comparison also have massive issues them self. Rush Adventure did worse than Rush because it came out 2 years latter meaning right after 06 just poisoned the well and at the same time as gen 4 Pokemon (sure a different genre but lets be real its Pokemon) combined with very little advertisement for it (like there a tons of Rush fans I have seen that didn't know until years latter Rush Adventure even existed) does it only make sense that it did worse. More over Dimps also was working on different projects for Sonic right after Rush Adventure too in form of there contribution to Sonic Unleashed WIi/PS2 and right after that did they undust the Rush engine and make another Rush like game in form of Sonic Colors DS while also using the same engine to make Sonic the portable which than was upgraded to Sonic 4 while having to write a all new engine soon after to make Sonic Generations 3ds something that took so much time than the game it self was than massively lacking to the point were like 5 stage layouts were copied 1 for 1 from there source games.
They were already doing more than they really had staff for so there was not really much space for a Sonic Rush 3 anyway. Even after Generations did the have to make Sonic 4 Episode 2 and Lost Worlds 3ds after all and after this point did they part ways with Sega on Sonic's projects.
Worse only is your Sonic and All stars racing argument as Transformed Sold MORE than the first one. They only made a fully Sonic Racing game afterwards rather than a third All stars game because Iizuka wanted to have the game optimized for him playing with his children. So that was Team head personal pet project superseding the financially sensible.
More over given your reasoning should Colors and Generations both have been financial Disasters being just more of Unleashed which it self was just 3d Rush.
I really wish Pariah would be more diligent with content like this, the fact that your comment even had to of been made is a problem. I genuinely hope that Pariah starts to actually try to prove what he says in his videos in the future rather than current where he provides no evidence of such and that he puts more effort into researching the topics he makes videos on. Although, considering how often mistakes like these come up both with the history of the franchise and with it's lore, I'm starting to doubt that he will ever improve. As for you @rynobehnke8289, thank you, more people need to see where Pariah makes mistakes. keep up the good work :)
This is a pattern with sequels in general, where the first one brings something exciting to the table and the subsequent ones serve more as an improvement/enhancement to the previous experience.
While frontiers 2 may not sell as well as frontiers, it may still sell relatively well with changing very little, which is probably what sega wants here. Essentially their model seems to go towards "how much can we potentially extract from this engine,formula, general design before we move on to the next "big" thing?" In this lens i don't think it really matters if frontiers 2 sells amazingly well, it just needs to sell "well enough" and then they can move on.
What you guys aren't understanding is this isn't a sequel, it's using the same gameplay formula, SEGA hasn't made a "sequel" since Rivals 2. Otherwise you could just call Colors Unleashed 2, and Generations Unleashed 3 even though these games have similar styles all they really do is expand on what worked and remove what didn't. Which is exactly what they are doing here.
So basically Kirby in the 2010s
All the games post RtDl basically is "how can make this better/ how can we add something unique to this entry"
the thing is that theres just so much to improve in the frontiers formula, its not like the boost formula that was basically almost perfect since the beginning, the combat can be improved a lot, or even completely revamped, same goes for the platforming, the stats system, the gameplay loop, the characters playable having different combat styles (like for example shadow having a mix of ranged and close combat styles, while silver would be focused on ranged), NPCs to interact with in the open zones and etc
thats some things i saw that could be better in one single casual playthrough, i dont think sonic team is dumb, they are well aware what they can do and i dont see a sequel with all those improvements selling less than frontiers
plus, frontiers 2 wont be actually a "frontiers 2" thats probably a development name, its a sequel in the sense that it uses the same "formula"
@@utrarafathonestly yeah, this
If Sega was smart give Sonic team at least 3 or 4 years to really works on the game, he ground work is already done so give them time to really polish the game and make it the best it can be, in 30 years sega still hasnt learned that the reason why nintendo is still making consoles that sell like hot cakes is because they give their developers time to finish their games
Then everyone is gonna hate it in 10 years.
I think it's a little different this time around, not because of anything in the game or Sonic Team, but Frontiers itself probably only got that much attention in the first place because of the movies.
You have to remember, those were insanely successful and Frontiers was the only NEW Sonic game at that time, as a result it got an unusual amount of attention even before it released.
Another part is honestly just that it's an open world game, and mainstream audiences buy that shit in drones despite hating it every single time but that's a different discussion...
Remember that Kishimoto has taken plenty of feedback from Twitter... including those that adressed the problems in your video (w/ bigger budget from Sonic Team).
According to Gamerguyd's insider : Kishimoto could change Sonic's model, bring back Japanese writers in the English script, kill the boost formula and revamp the physics (that are inspired from Rollin' Rascal).
That’s true but Kishimoto shown time and time again that he doesn’t actually understand people like about his games when they’re well received. The last thing we want is a game made by someone like that while also taking input from random sonic fans on twitter. That sounds like an unfocused mess of a game waiting to happen
Kishimoto taking player feedback is great but then you see some of the mind bogglingly silly choices made in Final Horizon and wonder if they're just incompetent at what they're trying to do.
@@sonicheroes the level design(the most important part of a sonic game) was pretty good so sonic team has the talent, it's the direction people are less sure about
@@Joshua-wo2ey i mean, many of the feedback taken for frontiers update were not only stuff that improved the game but were also handled well, so for this time after many years, i'm actually being confident that kishimoto will know how to deal with things.
@@emperortoho
Are we talking about the same game here? Final Horizons level design was godawful. It either prioritized artificial difficulty through poor design in the Open Zone, or it prioritized artificial momentum in the Cyberspace levels where you can just spindash on a ramp and skip over 80 percent of the level.
It's a perfect example on how not to build levels in ANY game, let alone Frontiers.
I entirely agree, the Sonic series has suffered for this exact thing so many times and I’m tired of it.
I have a small amount of hope that “Frontiers 2” will actually be something much newer and unique from Frontiers purely because Kishimoto was online taking feedback about Frontiers and being active in the community for a while there. He was also outright expressing interest in removing the boost for the next game and making something that wholly utilizes the spindash. However, I still don’t think that means it’ll end up being all that different from Frontiers. And I’m worried that if it is quite different from Frontiers, they will stray way to far away from the actual solid foundation that Frontiers is and make something that is absolutely nothing like Frontiers. It’s all or nothing when it comes to Sonic Team.
Frontiers 2 would need a whole new art style for the world and even the characters somewhat, world design that is closer to a Sonic version of what Mario Odyssey’s worlds are for Mario, a new and interesting control scheme, etc. And while I think they may achieve some of these things, I doubt they will achieve all of them.
Imma be real with you chief, I don't think it'll get any in a significant way
@@mrhalfsaid1389all i can hope for is that they improve things and stay as consistent as possible, i mostly agree with you on this, but i also expect for them to surpass our expectations in unexpected ways, be it both good, and bad...
@@kaxcommentssomethingREALwhat your proposing is a bit much. And I think even Sega knows they can’t please everyone. It’s like with smash bros for example, Sakurai couldn’t please everyone with his choices for which characters got picked but he wanted to provide the characters he believes would bring the most satisfying results to the fans.
Sega does have a lot to fulfill and it’s doubtful they’ll be able to make everyone happy… however if I’m being honest my biggest worry is if they show they do try to adjust what they can to a area where fans can simply be satisfied with the result. Plus remember Frontiers was their first game in a bit to have open world (yes I’m aware boom rise of lyric was open word but I just don’t believe in that games existence so I don’t count it.)
The difference between Sega doing sequels for Secret Rings and Sonic 4 is that people DIN'T LIKE THOSE GAMES, Frontiers on the other hand has had *mostly* positive reviews, so I don't see how a sequel *wouldn't* sell well considering the relatively warm reception of Frontiers.
Take the adventure duology for example: SA1 came out, was reviewed and sold relatively well, so when Sonic Team developed a sequel it was both critically acclaimed AND it sold really well, because the prior game was considered solid in most peoples eyes.
Secret Rings was a game people at the time bought on spite, because it was coming right after the bomb that was Sonic '06. Reading reviews at the time a lot of journalists were glazing Secret Rings like it the best Sonic game since the Mega Drive days just to shit more on '06.
secret rings, that isn't.... ENTIRELY true. reviews at the time slathered it up 'n down for being a SONIC game, with ONLY sonic, and NONE of those STUPID SONIC FRIENDS(TM), and lots of folks were also of the same mindset. time just advanced long enough that by the time black knight arrived, people got sick of the wii remote.
Oh boy, you obviously weren't there back then lol
Can’t wait for this video to age really really well and people say “wow, this aged well”
I can’t wait for it to age well and exclusively Sonic pfps commenting “well this aged poorly” and going mental gymnastics to justify it
@@deanmoriarty6015 Realest comment ever lol
why would u want this to age well, id rather have a good game
@@lemon5000-tj6nv
Everyone wants that, but this is SONIC TEAM we're talking about here. Having any faith in them is a fools errand, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment.
Just admit you want the game to fail
Just been browsing on the Internet and BOOM Sonic Frontiers 2 discussion.
After seeing the level design of the new cyberspace levels and some of the linear challenges in the open zones, yeah i have hope the sequel will be good and not just a rehash. My biggest hope is that they actually lean more on the anime shit they had going in frontiers, cuz those were the highlights for a majority of the playerbase.
Ive been having pretty much the exact thoughts. I personally loved TotK for example, but ive seen many people actually say they didnt love it that much because they felt it was kinda just BotW again, and thats saying something since its BotW2 we are talking about.
I've been thinking for a while how much I actually care for another Open Zone game or if people would care for it, and i agree most probably wouldn't. Especially since the novelty of Frontiers does a lot to carry it imo.
The issue, though, is now Sonic Team is kinda in a catch 21, now aren't they?
Fans for years told em to stick to something and refine it, only to validate their actions back in the day where they would shake things up more. SA1, SA2, Sonic Heroes, have fundemental similsrities but do a lot of different things too. Its funny to think how things come full circle while somehow things seemingly staying the same despite how much they change.
Ain't no way people prefer BOTW over the game with Mommy Pu- I mean. Sky islands.
@@spritvio639 I mean, I think ToTK is the better game, but it's not a rare take at all from my experience. And despite my disagreeing with it, I kinda get it.
@@spritvio639 Yeah I prefer botw myself for example. Totk was way too bloated for me to enjoy. Botw already stretched itself pretty thin with (let's be honest shallow and repetitive) cheeseable content but it had the novelty of a brand new world and engine to carry it along. Totk reused the world, added a lot more repetitive content and gave us ultrahand in an attempt to compensate for a incredibly samey experience. An experience that originally garnered it's appeal from a sense of wonder. If ultrahand did not instill that sense of wonder for you then it's just a boring game with a lot more content even easier to cheese than the last game, imo anyway.
in my own opinion they should probably save money not investing CGI cutscenes in purely the marketing, we've already got that mystery about the Starfall Islands down, the last CGI trailer for the game before Final Horizons got announced was PURE HYPE, not to say the one with the new transformation wasn't but you know what i mean. and Forces' ones made the story seem way better and exciting than we actually expected. it's time we got a proper opening since Lost World! ...god has it been that long?
I would argue that Sonic Rush is not a great example of this trend. Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure are the only games with the rush name but it's been one of the most influential games in the entire series. The 3D boost games all have their DNA from the Rush games and if you count Colors on DS the Rush games actually were a trilogy. My point is a direct sequel could work under the right conditions, but that would depend on Sega being smart about it. But, that's kinda the issue, I doubt they will be lol
I think it will sell good, simply by virtue of Frontiers selling so well. Usually, the sales of the previous game have an influence on the next game.
Frontiers had such good buzz surrounding it that many will see a sequel and be like "oh thr first one was good, so maybe the second will be even better"
U make a really strong point I can't fully disagree wit but I at least wanna C them do this 1 sequel to Frontiers before droppin it for a multitude of reasons. We'll have to wait & C
7:57
Since Colors DS uses the framework of Rush, while also added Colors mechanics and changes. It shows that maybe the game sold well enough that they know it’s a framework that works. But sequels won’t sell as well as the original. So why not get some easy money with a working framework, and change it up for a DS version of Colors.
I think if they can change the game around enough aesthetically and use different marketing tactics, while still using mostly the same tech, it would still have a chance to sell well. I don't recall Sonic Colors using any ties with the last game to market itself, for example. Same with Generations to an extent (although that had a different gimmick going for it).
"Same tech"
I don't think that will cut it. At bare minimum they need to fix the pop-in. But I think expectations should be higher; most likely, Frontiers 2 will be the first Sonic game on Switch 2 and not Switch 1; the first Sonic game where the weakest platform it's on will be significantly more powerful than the PS3/X360. So we should be able to see that upgrade. But alas, Unleashed and Generations are still prettier games than Forces and Frontiers, so I won't hold my breath.
@@kfcnyancat My point was more in reference to sales, not game quality. Unleashed had stronger art direction and was built with the hedgehog engine in mind.
But yeah, I would prefer they overhaul the technical shortcomings of the original, whether that means they need to invest in a new engine or it was a result of developing for the Switch. Whether that happens or not, we'll see.
Yo, watch a Pariah vid from 2022, then watch this one.
Your voice is the same, except much more pronounced and confident. You were more mellow in tone, but streaming’s definitely been paying off on your voice work!
I wonder if chaos will appear in the second game because maybe he will because the ancients look like him
I get your points, but I would rather Sonic Team try and refine what they have right now instead of doing something totally different. Can you imagine the backlash if Sonic Team did a main line sonic game in same vein as something like genshin impact after frontiers just because its popular? My hope is they will continue to work on this formula even past the next game and keep the momentum moving forward.
I think the angle that this topic was being approached from was "Would a Sonic Frontiers 2 sell like SEGA/Sonic Team expects them to?"
It's predicated on the assumption that they will expect greater sales numbers from the (alleged) increase in budget that Sonic Team is getting right now. History has shown that a sequel just doing "a refined version of the exact same game" hasn't sold better with the angle SEGA has taken in the past. It may _be_ a better game, but would it _sell_ better? The only evidence we can use to predict that is past experiences, which is why it pains me to agree with Pariah.
I do agree with you, though. A _refined_ version of Frontiers might not sell better, but that's the very least we could ask from Sonic Team right now.
Weren't the other episodes of Sonic 4 cancelled before episode 2 released?
"We are looking forward to hearing the feedback from the users for Episode 2, but we are currently not planning to release another episode. We just want to see how the users accept this episode."
- Takashi Iizuka, interview with Digital Spy, March 2012.
This is an interesting video but I feel like the counterargument to worrying about a sequel and wanting something new away from Frontiers is Heroes/Lost World etc
The best thing they can do is iterate on Frontiers' formula. It may be called Frontiers 2 internally, but it'll have to have a different name and look like a very different game from Frontiers. Like instead of open-zone it'll be wide-linear levels, ditch the low-energy melancholy story with something more similar to Unleashed or the Adventure games, overhaul the combat and make tricking a big part of the gameplay kinda like Sonic Rush, etc...
The inherent issue with a hypothetical Frontier 2 is that Frontiers 1 hinges on being a promise that the NEXT game is the one that delivers on what people actually want. If Frontiers 2 ends up being anything less than a complete overhaul in every aspect, people are going to be a LOT more critical of Frontiers' structural issues.
This isn't like the boost formula where it was already good, but needed actually good level design to back it up and they just dropped the ball. Sonic Team built a bad foundation that's going to be extremely difficult to actually improve upon in the long term.
Sonic Rush had a 3rd game, Sonic Colors DS is basically Rush 3
Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06 (and maybe Shadow the Hedgehog) basically followed the stablished formula of both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 while not having "Adventure 3" on their names and adding their own twist
Super Mario Odyssey also basically follows the same formula stablished by Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy, while all of those add their own twist to the formula, I would argue it's a simillar case to Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes and Sonic 06
Mario has the New Super Mario Bros. series, until Super Mario Bros. Wonder the Mario series was just fatigued with repeated 2D unoriginal games
“Sonic Adventure sold well, let’s make a sequel!” And then that was the end of that.
I just want open zone platforms to look natural & for the open zone to have diverse interesting environments. Like maybe a city somewhere. And I want boost but you only gain it after building momentum.
Sega makes the Yakuza games I'm not worried about Sega messing up the combat for Sonic
Sega is a publisher. They don't make anything. Ryu ga Gotoku Studio makes the Yakuza games. They know how to make good combat. Sonic Team makes Sonic. And they've already messed up Sonic combat.
I feel like Sega already tried this strat by doing sonic generations to sonic lost world, along with sonic heroes to shadow to 06 and that didnt bowed well in either case.
We’ll just have to wait and see the extent at which Sonic Team designs the next game as a sequel to Frontiers.
I think they should stick to this open zone formula, but just try to create something new with it that entices people even more.
Maybe a fully open-world Sonic game? Maybe have a different tone for the next game? Whatever it is, just build on top of that foundation that Frontiers laid down. I don’t think a direct Frontiers 2 would be a good idea, just maybe something in a similar vein to it.
To be fair, I really doubt it will literally be called ,, Frontiers 2"
You are assuming it's gonna just be Frontiers with improvements, but Sonic Team's track record shows that they rarely do the same thing twice (even when they should)
But I thought sonic fans were mad when Lost World was a completely different breed to Generations
It sounds like u want them to scrap open zone Sonic entirely. I think for one more game it’ll be fine
But then after that It’ll probably start to get stale
Idk just my take
I want the collision of the ground to be fixed far better. One of the big things I noticed about the game is how wonky the ground collision is and how it kinda disrupts moving around. It needs to be far more smooth. Honestly the main thing I wish the combat did was have more so moves that are based around movement. Like outside the homing attack and cyloop there arent a lot of things that you can attack with that arent like also movement options. Other stuff too but thsoe might be my biggest gripes.
Also Sega all stars transformed is weird cuz like out of the two, the sequel is the one I see people talk about far more and i feel that All star transformed isnt actually a good example of what you're talking about with sega not understanding the appeal of the very thing they made and why it sold well. Id argue Team Sonic Racing is that. it's clearly trying to be a follow up to those last two, but for some reason it removes the other sega characters probably assuming people just come for sonic, it changes things in much worse ways, and it doesnt really understand why people like sonic nor the sega all star racing games and in turn it sold BAD. Its especially odd since transformed itself was nominated for awards and Im pretty sure actually sold decently well for a sonic game. Its even WEIRDER that they took all the sega characters out since the racing games arent the only sega all stars games, they had a like sports game even before then Im pretty sure and clearly that formula's worked for at least 3 different games prior to team sonic racing. Sega really wonders why they struggle vs nintendo for brand awareness outside of maybe a few IP. Well stuff like this is the reason. They misunderstand that people like other sega IPs and actively remove them from a cross over series only for that series to die in the process like those ill forgotten brands.
I agree with you fully Pariah
If a Frontiers 2 was to work, it would have to be what Sonic 2 was to the original Sonic, bigger, better, faster and with some of killer app in terms of gameplay or visuals (like Tails and the Spindash were for Sonic 2)
But if it just turns out to be something of a Generations esque refinement of the Frontiers gameplay, it may end up backfiring
Out of curiosity, is this the reason why you were disappointed with mania after advance 3? I recall how you talked about the way the classic trilogy would keep trying to be "bigger and better" than the predecessors, and how the advance trilogy was the same way; taking the foundation of sonic 3 and doing something new each time to evolve the formula. So when mania undid everything the advance trilogy shook up and went all the way back to sonic 3k, you felt it was a bit disappointing. Am I right?
Hell even superstars was exactly what you described for me. I couldn't really figure out why, but I didn't care a whole lot when it got announced. It was cool that classic was getting another game, let alone completely original, but it just looked like more classic sonic, but instead of pixel art it has generations/forces graphics (albeit, a bit polished up). It's the same reason I advocated for generations to be the cause of a split timeline between classic and modern, as it would allow classic sonic to do something new and interesting without stepping on the toes of the "canon" sonic team likes to pretend exists
Theyll probably go the tears of the kingdom rout if anything. And given that following breath of the wild worked the first time, theyll probably do it the second time around, which lets not forget, tears did outsell breath despite being esentialy a massive dlc pack, even just ruing the entire world, and a lot of assets and such.
I imagine that you have already thought about doing a kind of video sequel. How do you save Sonic? It is literally something with an absolute lack of identity, not even the stories have a similar tone.
What I mean by lacking identity is that if you ask three different guys what Sonic is, they'll tell you three completely different things.
I just watched your video on Sonic fangames and going from the high of those concepts to what we’re gonna be getting is a tripppp
I think ignoring context surrounding this game just because of their “track record” isnt very realistic regarding how the next game is going to end up.
Here's the thing: I've been thinking about what you've said here since long before you uploaded this video, but I don't think that is necessarily the fault of it being a sequel because look at Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations. Based on gameplay I'd call them sequels to Unleashed but they aren't. They took the groundwork of Unleashed and made something new and I feel like a Sonic Frontiers 2 could do the same thing as long as a) its not called Sonic Frontiers 2, and b) they do enough to not only upgrade and evolve the gameplay, but give it a unique visual identity. I know you're arguing that they can't or they wont but looking at Sonic Frontiers alone, both its base game and the DLC, it seems like they are actually in the mindset of trying to fix Sonic up. Then again I'll also be right there with you in not being too surprised if that's not how it is but instead they do just make a straight up Sonic Frontiers 2. The potential is there and they've laid some great groundwork, so I feel like its possible that it could go either way.
I think youre right, I imagine Frontiers 2 will end up like Black Knight and Sonic 4 episode 2
Imagine people saying this for Sonic 2 back on the genesis
Clearly Sonic needs to turn the chao garden into the settlement system from Fallout 4 with Tikal as Preston Garvey.
Isn't the point of having a formula to be put well and be consistent, hell kirby had a lot of games like Return to Dreamland and then triple deluxe , robobot and star allies. And those were good, mind you star allies needed DLC to be more fun.
Sure, i know that they need to have to take other stuff. But IT NEEDS CONSISTENCY FIRST, so having a Sonic Frontiers 2 isn't bad, they need to stick with something that works first and then work on it.
And hell, even shadow generations show that they can do other stuff while the mainline still is in development.
going with another sega franchises, persona and yakuza do some of the same things but they do change their formulas when it needs some changing to be done, yakuza was known as a beat em up, but with 7 is an RPG, but it sill builds on it in yakuza 8 infinite wealth.
I know the attrative thing on those is the story more than the gaemplay, but again.
I think that they need to build it more
That string of Kirby games has been consistent, but keep in mind that they've also been very different. Return to dreamland was basically adventure (Kirby's second game) with amazing mirror-like 4p multiplayer (and even better, all at once). Plus we've never seen Kirby in a 2.5D perspective until that game and it looked gorgeous (it was also on the Wii, and, y'know)
Triple deluxe ditched multiplayer for obvious reasons but added multiple planes, and they changed up the super abilities mechanic by giving Kirby's main mechanic, inhaling, a super power and throwing in a lot of insane spectacle around it (Kirby inhaling a boss's health bar, anyone?)
Planet robobot featured Kirby in a sort of sci-fi robotic land and the super ability/hypernova mechanic was, yet again, evolved into Kirby having a mech suit plus it having the ability to copy abilities, just like Kirby
Those games were all interesting and unique from the rest of the series in several ways, and you can tell they were received so well because of those reasons because Star Allies didn't have any of the creativity that those other 3 had. If anything, it was return to dream land but a bit closer to super star in its partner mechanics and made a big deal out of teamwork, now that you could have several characters on screen while in single player. The game itself was fine, but it wasn't as special as the 3 before. What makes it unique is all of the references and fan service, which is cool and all, sure, but I definitely wanted something new
And after Kirby star allies, they went with a new direction for Kirby, finally putting him in 3D, which alone is generally new for Kirby and probably would've been fine by itself to attract people, but stack the desolate setting of the game on top of that? That sounds cool and interesting right there
@@igirjei3717 thats a good way to put It.
But overall they are consistent and still the same formula, but with enough changes to be fresh and fun
@@joaquindiaz3621 he's hoping sonic team can pull that off
@@igirjei3717 yeah, but i want them to still have this formula because changing everytime can be detrimental if they dont have the experience enough to do it
Oh no, this is happenin’!
12:31 i dont think mario odyssey is a good example at all, nintendo uses the same 3d formula since 1996 and with every game they make an unique twist while maintaning the same structure to make it different from the past games
i think frontiers 2 will be a sequel to frontiers just like mario sunshine is a sequel to mario 64, i really hope they dont drop the bag now with how much feedback they have from fans, its pretty clear where the potential of frontiers was missed and what are the flaws of the game
If kishimoto is following through with what he’s saying on twitter and actually does the stuff he says he’s doing then I think it’ll be alright. But I don’t believe him
Yeah
Knowing all the devlopment history of sonic team and sega yeah i dont trust sonic team anymore even wth the resources given they would waste it in favor of money and dumb decisions and focusing on content & ambitions more than gameplay polish i feel like they learned nothing from 06
Sonic team been a incompetent terrible studio ever since lizuka became director and sega changed the sonic branding of " of trying its best to be a good video game franchise and failing bcuz if sega s'costly failures " to a
" cash grab mascot full shitty bad games for greed and a dev studio relying on incompetency and inconsistencies just to play it safe to move away from 2006 without actually learning from it to be better next time , but no they learn the wrong lessons to get a dollar from ur company that been poorly managing this franchise for yrs"
Sonic 06 and unleashed really marked the end of an era of this franchise as a whole
An era of again :
trying its best to be a good video game franchise both 2d and 3d and ends up failing in later 3d bcuz of sega s'costly failures and dark ages after they lost to sony and nintendo and quit the market and expensive partnerships to avoid bankruptcy.
And 2010s onwards
The structure of this franchise asnt changed entirely
Bcuz sonic team keeps learning the wrong lessons and sega is a plain terrible company .
But the game isnt out yet so ppl need to hold back the negative. Cuz its also why thos godamn community sucks and also ruined the franchise .
I don’t think Superstar performed poorly mainly _because_ it was a sequel. I think lots of fans wanted more 2D Sonic like Mania, but Superstars just fumbled really bad on a lot of things. And even generally, it's just not as good as a game compared to Mania. The budgeted presentation, flawed stability, and core gameplay are just major steps backwards that were entirely unnecessary. Sequels generally perform worse, yes, but I don’t think Superstars suffered from that specifically.
I do see your argument, though. The example with Odyssey really made things clear. A direct sequel would be great, but 3D Mario sequels always tried to shake things up with a major gameplay changer. Sonic Team would be wise to have the sequel stick out in some way.
I think that the only type of gameplay that fans wouldn't mind getting more of is the Adventure style gameplay! Soo many fans have been absolutely begging for an SA3 game for years, so if Sega makes that sequel game and finally turns the Adventure series into a trilogy after developing remakes of SA1 & SA2, a third one would 100% sell very well! The players very much want more of the type of gameplay that those games were made with.
I do agree with the points you make
But at the same time you have to acknowledge that small changes can actually go a really long way
If they just fix the way the game looks:
. Make the environment more integrated
. Make it a bit more cartoonish
. Make it feel like a Sonic world in general maybe add loops too
And build the game with momentum and multiple characters in mind
And have original assets
Which are all changes that are expected to be honest but I believe it really can transform the game into the "new" thing you're talking about
But in the end it all depends on how good Sonic Team will pull that so only future will tell
Also, love the description of the video it's hilarious!
Sonic team has a good record of making good sequels like sonic adventures sequel sonic adventure 2 it was also a good game or sonic advance sequels remember those games? Yeah...those were very fun all 3 sequels all together so i believe they could make this sequel better than the last one with some improvements etc...and i just don't know what to expect i mean i obliviously they will improve somethings in the previous sonic frontiers
It’ll probably have a different name vaguely related to what the game is about because that’s the pattern they’ve gone with for years, and it will double down on aspects of the original that were very divisive like Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Colors did, and it’ll be very up in the air which game is better. Maybe it’ll copy Adventure 2 a bunch since Frontiers already mirrors Adventure 1 in many ways besides just gameplay and design, though Forces already tried to pander to Adventure 2 nostalgia so I don’t know. Then we’ll get a sequel to that that just does whatever random bullshit that nobody asked for like Lost World and Heroes. Then they’ll decide to take drugs and we’ll get something even more out of left field like Boom and Shadow 05. Then when things get so bad that people are begging for a “Frontiers 3” we’ll get it, and it’ll be much worse than even the first game in that play style like Sonic Forces and Sonic 06. Then we’ll get a new formula and repeat the cycle
They need to stick to a formula, not change it. If they change it's all the same all over again
I used to be afraid of this happening but now they seem to have different teams working on different pillars of Sonic so I don't think Sonic team will immediately divert from open zone.
@@anthonyyawtwumasimensah197 well thats cool, after all Sonic dream team was a good thing that have some of frontiers aspects but cool enough to be fun
Honestly though, I'd like an "Open Zone" Angel Island if they make Frontiers 2.
1:53 thats where you're wrong cause even kishimoto admitted that the platforming stuff was kinda of last addition to the game LMAO
Here’s my take:
Given that it’s been obvious Sega has been keeping an eye on the fan base and what they strive for as far as things are concerned I think that things will be a little different but what your suggesting is sounding like a complete overhaul which for a company that had just delve into the idea of full on open world and they went on record saying that area of the game was their main focus that’s asking a lot. I definetly agree that some things need to be polished art style being one of them but at the same time o have to be realistic and say yeah things aren’t going to be to changed as again they are grasping the concept of this open world ordeal.
However given how Kishmoto has been listening to us on Twitter and how Sega has shown that they are not interested in trying to get games out quickly but actually take their fricken time with them, I think they can do it.
I know everyone is saying they have a lot of promises to keep and I do agree that this will be the ultimate test to their promise… but if all goes well for the generations and ensure they continue to learn from their past errors I can see a sequel working out.
The main stream audience like frontiers (at least much more than the usual 3d sonic game) add to that sonic movie 3 increasing the popularity, them most likely adding new characters and maybe shadow is one of them which would hype a lot of people. I expect it to be an improvement (sonic team could always prove us otherwise) and that would rate it higher by critics which would also increase the sales.
I think frontiers 2 selling as much if not more is possible. Sonic’s popularity is increasing because of the movies, shows, the current games not being 0/10s at least etc.
Don't assume the 3rd movie will be a hit. Big Hollywood blockbusters have been flopping left and right lately. It could happen to Sonic.
And just being better than the previous game doesn't guarantee people will like it more. Rivals 2 and Black Knight both got worse reception than their predecessors, despite clearly being better games.
@@Pariah6950that’s true, but I’ve seen the reaction to sonic 3’s news by the mainstream audience and they seem to really care about it because of sonic 2 and especially shadow. The sequel selling better is not that likely if still possible, frontiers did really well for a sonic game, but selling close to it is very likely imo. Also unlike secret rings and sonic 4 it didn’t just sell well, but it was also received well
@@Pariah6950Sonic movie 3 is not going to flop because everyone is excited for this movie and the writers also directors know what they're doing Sonic movie 2 made a billion dollars the same will be for a third movie This movie includes Shadow and based off Sonic adventure 2 and might change stuff This movie's not going to be a Sonic adventure movie completely these movies are their own thing and not tied to the games this will get people into the games and the characters like Shadow This will get general audiences shadows character It done the same for knuckles his movies give these two characters a reputation in the games as well
@@dragonnet289keep in mind nobody's saying it *will* flop, just that we won't know until it's out, so we can't really assume the effect it'll have on another thing (the sales of a sonic game, in this case) until we know how good it is first
Being this negative for game this that hasn’t even been announced yet is crazy ngl. This sonic team is different from the past. When the director makes a twitter to get feedback from fans and actually follows through with the updates. I see no reason not to believe in this team
That's the problem with Sonic community they're always so cynical about things before they come out
@@zomebody5529 Seriously bro. Like how are you this negative for something that doesn’t exist yet. Don’t get me wrong everyone is entitled to their own opinion but this is crazy. I’m someone that judges that for what they are instead of comparing it to something else. He was doing that the entire video too
@@jaredjackson9734 Yeah
Knowing all the devlopment history of sonic team and sega yeah i barely trust sonic team anymore , even wth the resources given they would waste it in favor of money and dumb decisions and focusing on content & ambitions more than gameplay polish i feel like they learned nothing from 06
Sonic team been an incompetent studio ever since lizuka became director and sega changed the sonic branding of " of trying its best to be a good video game franchise and failing bcuz if sega s'costly failures " to a
" cash grab mascot full shitty bad games for greed and a dev studio relying on incompetency and inconsistencies just to play it safe to move away from 2006 without actually learning from it to be better next time , but no they learn the wrong lessons to get a dollar from ur company that been poorly managing this franchise for yrs"
Sonic 06 and unleashed really marked the end of an era of this franchise as a whole
An era of again :
trying its best to be a good video game franchise both 2d and 3d and ends up failing in later 3d bcuz of sega s'costly failures and dark ages after they lost to sony and nintendo and quit the market and expensive partnerships to avoid bankruptcy.
And 2010s onwards
The structure of this franchise asnt changed entirely
Bcuz sonic team keeps learning the wrong lessons and sega is a plain terrible company .
But the game isnt out yet so ppl need to hold back the negative. Cuz its also why this godamn community sucks and also ruined the franchise .
@@Contenwtdeketedd I feel you bro. I completely understand why you don’t trust sonic team or Sega as a company. There was a time where I stop playing sonic all because I was tired of playing the mediocre games. So you are definitely entitled to feel that way. But sonic frontiers saved the franchise along with movies. Not matter you feel you about frontiers as a game. You have to admit it brought the franchise back to good state and that’s something to be proud of. But, I once felt how you feel now bro.
@@zomebody5529 Forgive him, the trauma is REAL😭😭
The thing about the platforming being integrated is, the platforming was added to the game later in development, due to playtester comments. The reason they aren’t baked into the game is because originally they weren’t meant to be there. So expecting the next game to have it be integrated isn’t too much of a stretch.
I definitely think it would be interesting if Sonic Team did actually take a step back to make the next step. Yeah, Sonic Team IS technically taking a step back and taking a good, long look after seeing the numbers.
Sonic by and large IS a franchise that has pushed itself, and usually in that pushing, it might have a tendency to ironically fall for those passivity traps like the infamous Marble Zone Spring in the need to push itself forward.
It seems to have a core aspect, that being speed-based platforming meant to reward players for getting better at the game and playing more of the levels, but unlike their famous red plumber rival... Sonic is somewhat of a case of ironically running itself into a rut when overdoing in one aspect, and when they don't run something into a rut, Sonic will make missteps a la Lost World.
Sonic CAN be able to make a good game and make it well, but I think something that really does need to be looked at, if Sonic is going to be that good that it could ever potentially reverse the damages of some of its entries... It needs to understand that core aspect so then Sonic Team can test out by branching out.
It's honestly the thing I'm curious to see, most of all. Can Sonic Team find a core gameplay style that can pull what 3D Mario has with seeing what can be expanded upon as opposed to just pulling a ToTK to Frontiers' BoTW
I mean probably. If the game looks good it'll probably sell well especially since Frontiers was so popular.
Also when's the Lost World 3 A.M. vid 😏
Hey Pariah most people knows American influence in sonic games and thanks to you a lot of people well know more Japanese influence in games but there's one country most people don't talk about when it comes to Sonic taking influences and that is Greece specially with Ancient Greek
You're right and all but your measurement of success as a series I don't think adds up to very much when you consider the most acclaimed original trilogy was basically 3 games and the third one sold the worst out of those so should they have not made S3&K? Should they have maybe made S3&K on the saturn instead since it was a new console? But they kinda did that with CD and it did even worse. Going straight from 2 to Adventure on saturn immediately would've been better saleswise.
I dunno, I do think sales and innovation are important but I'm just kinda glad they make what they make regardless cause almost every single time the next iteration of the game in a series even if it's just 2 or 3 games will just be better.
I understand that you don't have faith in sonic teams quality but one thing you shouldn't deny is that they rarely do the same thing twice even if they realistically should, so you may have to be more worried lol
I’d murder for a new superstars 2 lol. Also I’m slightly optimistic about frontiers 2 cuz apparently they’ve been reading lots of feedback and criticisms, so maybe they might change more than they thought they would? I also don’t think it should be called frontiers 2
I mean, I think Frontiers 2 would sell well. Maybe not as well as 1, but I think the majority still enjoyed the game. I think?
I don't follow Frontiers players much because I, quite frankly, don't like the game almost at all, but I also have this impression that a lot of the praise the game got was just from the 'honey moon' phase. I think a lot of the players' impressions of the game has sorta shifted towards the negative with the DLC not helping things.
These kinds of discussions are the most interesting to me with sonic. Sonic is such an interesting brand to look at marketing and business wise because they do such a weird job with things
I couldn't forecast the sales for ya, but Sega definitely has to conclude the Sonic F Trilogy.
They can expand the Frontiers formula and more playable characters
The problem with sonic frontiers is the foundation if they're not changing the foundation the sequel is gonna be of similar quality.
Pretty Bleak
Probably another fire ost tho 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥
13:13 fin.
I believe that the next open zone game will be a massive improvement over Frontiers. Sonic Team was never before in the place that they are now. Ever since the classic games the quality and polish of sonic games went downhill. Never before did the quality started improving. Sega is EXCITED to make a bunch of money of of sonic right now. The quality, ambition and execution will be better from this point on.
Is this why we don't have Sonic Adventure 3?
Companies don't develop sequels only to cash into the aquired fans, they do it cause its way less costly than creative a new game from the ground up, recycling development elements reduce the cost and time of production in an important manner.
I think there's a case by case point, It really depends on the product as a whole and also a bunch of other factors, but even if you create a formula and try to improve it, doesn't mean something will be bad, as long as you give enough things with each game to make things fresh.
The Boost Formula was a example of that, o console we had Sonic Unleashed which people love it the daytime stages, they picked that, tried to refine and made both Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations that people love it.
The video is based on the belief the we gonna have a direct sequel to Frontiers, but as from the information we have, we don't know if it is a direct sequel, we just know theyre using the same formula, but the setting, story and environment could change, with another name but with the same formula, we had game like those like Sonic Colors for DS wich is basically the third interation of the Rush formula, or Sonic 06 being the third game with the Adventure Fornula, or as mentioned before Colors and Generation wich was the second and third game with the formula presented by Unleashed.
Basically, only time will tell how this the next sonic game will be, if will be a direct sequel to frontiers, or just use the formula but change the rest of the game.
I honestly would be more concerned by the fact that they would throw everything out of the window after Frontiers, the Boost formula reached it's peak with Generations, with people wanting more, but then Sonic Team decided to throw everything out the window and then gave us Sonic Lost world and well, we know what happened later.
Just as concerning it could be a spiritual sequel or direct sequel to frontiers, so it would be a completely new game. We can only hope Sonic Team have a clear vision after frontiers and see what they'll do.
Who knows.
Well kind of ironic people be asking for Sonic Adventure 3
Are you okay, man? It's been a minute.
“it’ll probably be just frontiers 2 building off the same tech and framework and engine” local youtuber discovers what a sequel is
i think he meant it as "they won't even try to add momentum"
by that logic Frontiers is a direct sequel to Forces and Forces was a direct sequel to Lost World and Lost World was a direct sequel to Generations despite none of them playing remotely the same or having a similar tone.
the point is they will likely be reusing nearly 20 year old assets- again. maybe that wouldn’t be a problem if the game actually felt good to play.
Which means it would have less of an excuse to make slight improvements,. Why I do believe that was his point.
It sounds like he’s saying that they won’t even try, and it will just be some boring rehash.😑
Honestly, all I want from the Frontiers sequel is:
1. The world/open zones have a more Sonic-like instead of the generic environment from the Frontiers 1
2. More playable time with Tails, Knuckles, and Amy: I want to get these guys right before we start introducing more characters like Shadow and Blaze
3. The boss battles absolutely need to maintain the same level of spectacle the Titans gave us: I'm not saying that Sonic has to go super for every boss fight, but I think it can still be done
W vid as always
I do think a sequel is a good idea. It doesn't even have to have the name "Frontiers 2" but the gameplay of it. What sonic needs right now is consistency so that's why when it was stated this was the formula they wanted to go with for the oncoming years, a lot of people were excited to hear that including myself. With what was shown for the updates even after the last one it was still getting tweaks to improve what was there (e.g knuckles glide). So I genuinely think the 2nd game WILL sell well because it's clear they're listening and the additions they'll add to the next game will be enough to shake things up like (No excessive pop in, World being built with momentum in mind, Finished playable characters due to the first game, etc.) Hopefully Sonic team can also use that bigger budget to make something truly great.
For me, I really don't care about Frontiers, whereas I miss the storybook games. Maybe I have a weird taste. Anyway, I thought it would be the other way around. Sonic Team often goes in a completely different direction. Everyone loves Generations, but then they made Lost World. So I would have figured Frontiers 2 wouldn't happen.
Sonic Frontiers 2 would be Sonic's version of Tears Of The Kingdom. And if they do the story right. Silver will be there as he's Sonic's version of Rauru. And Sonic will get Silver's Telekinesis just like Link got Rauru's.
Yep.
And Blaze should be there too. As we now know that she's Sonic's version of Queen Sonia.
Even with the original 2D Sonic games. After 1, each got fewer and fewer sales.
Also cel shaded Frontiers 2 with a really cool style would probably do way better than boring ass realistic Unity demo visuals.
Sonic 1 and 2's sales were inflated by being pack-in games (though I still think Sonic 3 would be the lowest selling one if they weren't.)
Yep, Pariah’s speaking my mind again. These sequels could be so much MORE. Even my story expectations for Frontiers were more organic and interesting than what we got. “Frontiers 2” could be huge, but it’s just gonna be Mario Galaxy 2.
I actually agree, I think they'll change enough as to where it feels different but have the same core gameplay like Galaxy 2.
But I do think they'll use Silver to rip somethings off from the Zelda franchise.
I feel like most sequels fall into this pattern in general, of simply being more of the same. Naturally because of this they probably aren't going to sell as much as their predecessor, but that doesn't mean they'll flop completely. Heck they might even sell just as much just by being a good game. I mean, look at something like Sonic Generations. That game is just more of Unleashed but it still sold quite well. I believe Superstars also sold well (Geek Critique made a post regarding the bestselling games of Nov 2023 or smth, saying that according to Superstars' position it should've sold at least a million), Sega's standards were just really high. In fact i think it might've outsold Mania though I could be wrong. At the end of the day if people like something they r going to want more of that thing. People who always want something new r only part of the audience at the end of the day. People who simply want more of the same r still a huge part of the audience. If the game looks good, chances r people will want to buy it, especially with a huge series like Sonic.
Also as a side note I kinda wanna rewatch this video cuz u make this game looks so much fun, even without jump physics. Might even boot up Frontiers again just because of this gameplay lmao
Mr Negative 🫤
This won't age well
I don't think he wants it to age well.
Under normal circumstances I would 100% agree with him but if Kishimoto's tweets and the final horizon are anything to go by the next game will be drastically changed.
It's really on his shoulders as to where the franchise goes next.
If Infinite returns from Sonic Forces, he will have his revenge.
I think other open zone is definitely the way to go since that idea still has so much potential imo, but you’re 100% right they probably won’t change enough to make it new and interesting. Current Sonic team have no idea what people actually like about their games when they happen to make a good one and it shows
Moral of the story: "Never play to the gallery... Always go a little further into the water than you feel you're capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth, and when you don't feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you're just about in the right place to do something exciting." Basically, it's a balance between keeping it the same while also innovating and changing something, and transforming something.
That's a quote from David Bowie. It was brought up in Christian Whitehead's interview about Penn's Big Breakaway. And Sabrina Diduro (the producer of Freedom Planet games) agrees with that. And it seems this is something that Sonic Team didn't get and it doesn't look like they are going to learn that anytime soon.
Sonic Team has lost the vision as they have no idea what Sonic games are and should be. There is some parts of Sonic that they have rejected and thrown away because of 06 trauma. And it also appears they have a poor sense of what their games want to be.
Another aspect of sonic team is that most of their members are have ethier changed or no longer in sonic team from level design,animation,art style,sound,and story they aren't the same people from before
@@sugarsmile7852 You could say that the veterans of the past who knew what they were doing are no longer in Sonic Team and here comes the newblood who replaced those veterans and they have proven that they are amateurs and have no idea what they are doing.
There is one who has been a Sonic Team member for quite some time and still is and that Sonic Team member is Takashi Iizuka to be honest, he is doing more harm than good when it comes to Sonic.
sometimes I wish the Sonic brand would be sold to Nintendo... but then I remember we would probably lose easy access to all those fangames so no thanks
Yeah, loss of fangames + loss of mods + the franchise would be restricted to nintendo's gimmicky, overpriced, fisher price consoles.
This guy complaining that Sega will reuse Frontiers for the next game with some improvements, while Nintendo did the exact same thing with TOTK and getting praised. Literally most sequels reuse the exact same engine, it saves time and money and allows them to focus on everything else instead, so I do think they will make a much better version of what we had.
Right, and how well did TOTK sell relative to BOTW? It's not about *completely* changing it up, it's about doing something new with that framework. Look at Kirby's return to dream land through robobot. Then look at star allies, and then look at it immediately being followed up by forgotten land. It seems like they didn't really have any ideas for the return to dream land formula anymore so they pulled they trigger and made Kirby 3D
@@igirjei3717 I'm only saying that Sonic "fans" always complain about anything. The new game will improve everything, just like how SA2 improved what they did before, so Sonic 3 improved what they did before.
@@generalvic8250 of course, I don't doubt they'll improve everything, it's whether or not they do something interesting with the framework they improved, but hey, I got my fingers crossed for, at the very least, a solid (or broken) and fun sonic game that keeps sonic on the radar.
Also, note that this fanbase is massive and full of tons of very different people with very different opinions, many of them insanely passionate and devoted to the franchise. At the end of the day, we all want sonic to be the best it can be, and our individual visions for sonic are wildly different from one another (mostly thanks to how different the series has gotten over the years). Some people complain endlessly about stuff that literally doesn't matter, but I think most of the CRITICISMS are important to acknowledge and at least understand
@@igirjei3717 Criticism is one thing, complaining about every single game or character that shows up is what irks me. The only other fanbase I've seen do this sort of thing is the Star Wars community.
@@generalvic8250 now *that* we can shake on
Alright I have a couple of things to say that may be considered nitpicks or something similar. Number one: every duology you mentioned was not done by sonic team. This is because sonic team has a much more awkward and well-known pattern that everyone calls the sonic cycle. Do a couple of games that are received well then go on to something weird because they don't think with their head. "Should we try to refine the adventure formula as much as we can? Nahhhh that's too much effort let's do some weirdo shit and bring big the cat back." (I don't hate sonic heroes, but the idea of the game isn't very well thought out). "Hey, we've refined our boost formula, and everyone loves our past two games should we try to take the next step and evolve the formula into something with more depth? Fuck NO! I'm bored of making those games let's throw everything out the window and do whatever we want. We can even make a character more powerful than big the cat!" This team really just go in whatever direction they feel like without thinking for more than a minute.
To expand on my point about Sonic team; whenever they make sequels, they usually have a fair number of differences. Sonic adventure 2 has a completely different structure to its levels because it removes hub worlds, puts multiple gameplay styles into each of the stories, and half of the gameplay styles are removed. it isn't just a game that just does the exact same thing. Saying that would be the same as saying Mario 64, sunshine, and Odessey are the exact same, although the Mario games do change up the "main" playstyle in terms of move set more than the adventure games do. The same can be said about the boost games to a lesser extent; they each have different structures to their levels although the core gameplay is very much the same especially with generations and Forces.
Second-ish point is kind of a nitpick but... Nintendo did do what you say sonic does; it's called tears of the kingdom. A game with the exact same map and controls and reward system with the only difference being new mechanics. This reminds me of another example; Mario galaxy 2 a game that was originally going to be DLC but then became its own game. Now both of these games are very successful despite not being very original because of Nintendo's quality assurance that is rather consistent unless the series is called Pokémon. Sonic Team doesn't have any quality assurance they just wanted to add more people to the credits, so it's more than likely that if they attempted this strategy, it would go horribly wrong just like with other's previous attempts with the franchise.
Third point: To me it seems like you really don't enjoy the concept of the open zone in fact I'm pretty sure you've stated that it doesn't fit sonic. I'm bringing this up because in the video you say that the structure of the open zone is likely to remain exactly the same. Now you could be saying this because you believe that sonic team won't be putting any amount of thought into making the next game and will just say "Yeah just copy and paste the final horizon into 4 new zones but make the 3rd zone blue instead of grey" which would be really fucking sad for a team that put in the effort to create the final horizon but not impossible. However, I feel as though it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to change the structure of frontiers into something a bit better, hell they were experimenting with Final horizon, and I think what they did their felt a little more purposeful and less overly complex. I don't expect them to change the game into something completely different, but I feel like they would try to address at least one of the complaints from the general audience such as the Bubsy graphics especially since we've been told that they're going to have at least a slightly bigger team and maybe Sega won't treat them like they're a cancer.
I'm not trying to be too optimistic towards Sonic Team, but I genuinely believe that they aren't soulless they're just not very intelligent which is still annoying considering how long they've been at this. Maybe this open zone thing isn't the best thing for sonic but it's an ever-changing franchise so what the development team gain from this will help them to create a 3D sonic game where the heart aligns to the quality of the game. Okay that last part was way too optimistic but whatever.
nah im hopeful gang