Porpoising is part of why the very first experiments in active suspension were done during the last seasons of the first ground effect era, the one that ended in 1982. It's also in part why spring rates were so high, and why Lotus experimented with with mounting their aero on a separate "chassis" with the Lotus 88... It was Lotus that did the experiments with active suspension too.
These are experiments I hope the FIA will allow teams to try out in the next few years. It would be really exciting to see 21st century engineers attempting to get their heads around a problems that stems back to the early 80s F1 cars.
They probably expected it to happen to some degree but there was no way of now how bad it would be until they were allowed to actually send the cars around a track.
Given that the suspension is more simplified and than ever it wasn't much to expect, didn't they have a hydraulic and spring damping dereged from this gens cars.
Maybe for 2023, would be impossible now. All they could do now is find the right ride height and try to figure out they best place to stop the bottom out suspension
@@tehDmez since there is a cost cap now i don't really understand that point. When you wanna have active suspension you gonna have to make a compromise on antoher part of the car. Adding costly things to the regulation won't make the cars more expensive since the teams just arent allowed to spend more
F1 banned the heave spring that every car was running but Merc perfected. They can only have one spring per wheel. The heave spring would stop this or at least mitigate it. It was a third spring that controlled both of the wheels on the same axle.
Makes me think of the 1980 lotus 80. Mario Andretti said it was one of the worst F1 car's he ever drove due to the porpoising. Didn't think it would happen with 21st century F1 !
the downforce isnt lost when lowering the ride height, getting lower actually increasing the downforce because it seals the floor better. the loss of downforce comes from the floor hitting the ground and losing suction or imperfections in the road
almost certainly not going to porpois when loaded up in a corner like Copse at Silverstone . The real danger is hitting a rabbit or hare and attempting to catch the slide on liquid lubricant hare . Ask me how I know .
It's a logical solution. Active suspension need more data analysis and fine tuning and requires more time to implement. Mass damper is relatively simple and can be readily implemented.
I wonder if it was less about not seeing this coming, and more about not being able to sim it accurately. On track testing gives them information they can't gather anywhere else. Maybe they just needed this data to accurately compensate for it.
as every team experiences it I would say its rule / conceptual problem. Without heave damping, active suspension, separate aero chassic ... this is hard to effectively counter
I think it's more likely that stopping it would most likely involve reducing downforce so maybe teams think it's worth the trade off. You can see cars stop porpoising when they have less downforce like when DRS is open.
@@charlesfowler4308 not a chance. The DRS situation is a band aid at best. None of these teams are going to allow this to happen. Porpoiseing is not only bad for the driver, it can damage the car, and changes how much downforce the car has second to second which will cause instability and crashes. They will address this in whatever way they need to. Engineers don’t leave things up to chance.
@@LaggerSVK which is exactly why they needed real world data to gauge how the car would perform and how harshly it would be effected in order to understand what countermeasures needed to be taken. And since everyone had difference designs, everyone also had different results.
How would it not be possible to sim it though? CFD software is pretty darn good these days and ought to be able to predict flow seperation and ground effect, and springs are easier to simulate than airflow, and if that's the primary cause of the issue... could you not just combine a CFD simulation with a spring simulation?
I was wondering if this would be an issue especially if u touch a curb starting the disturbance and oscillation. Its a good thing they have the low profile tires or it could be even worse
The low profile tyres could be part of the problem, the smaller distance in travel they provide can/could cause higher frequency oscillation. A larger sidewall could absorb more of the load but could also make it worse if the load exceeds the potential of the sidewall, it would still have a lower frequency in oscillation at the cost of greater vertical travel.
So bring back active suspension like Williams used decades ago. It may just save lives. I'd hate to see another Senna style death because a car couldn't handle its own movements under load.
I had wondered how teams would go between low and high downforce set ups. Seems like you'd need to tune it very carefully so that the max speed you hit wouldn't cause porpoising, but then you also want as much downforce as possible for turns.
Porpoising can cause brain injury, a well know phenomena in bob sledging sports. Growing research that shows it might be the act of sledding itself that is the main driver of brain injury. With every run, athletes are exposed to immense force and vibration, causing micro-concussions that can add up to major damage. Those concussions are mild enough that they can go undiagnosed.
This really does seem to be a recurring thing whenever a new floor philosophy is dreamed up. It happened a lot with the introduction of wing cars and was an issue again when F1 moved to the flat bottom and diffuser spec. It got solved fairly quickly the second time and I suspect it'll be a largely forgotten problem for most teams by late season.
Here's hoping to active suspension returning or separate chassis for air flow. The cars are already so wildly different from just allowing ground effect. It's going to be awesome to see how much more different they can become.
This is the purpose of testing. To test and check that the data of the cfd and wind tunnels reflect data gathered on track. But somehow the FIA decides to reduce pre season testing to 6 days instead of 10 days.
So...to add onto this, another reason this is a problem is the fact that the cars are accelerating. If the cars were at a constant speed such as 300 kph the downforce and the suspension would equalize at a certain height. Because the cars are accelerating, as the bouncing happens the loads are increasing which is essentially acting as an outside force which doesn't allow the car to stabilize and in fact make it worse. The only way to counter this problem(from my limited knowledge) is to split the aero features into 2 categories, 1 that works the body, and one that is directly attaches to the tires. This is currently illegal and was last done by lotus 40 years ago.
This was a problem for the original ground force cars and was only properly 'cured' by the use of side skirts. Unfortunately they were banned after cars became 'too fast' but Colin Chapman came up with his 'double chassis' Lotus which was banned before it ran competitively. The FIA banned side skirts altogether when teams started using variable ride height suspension that lowered the skirts to the track when at speed but returned to the mandatory ride height when stationary so as to pass inspection. Then the variable ride height was banned yet some cars to this day still seem to hug the ground closer during racing.
Man I would love to see the damper returning, it was so innovative and we don't have a looot of crashes that can cause some parts to fly so I see it safer than before
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of engineering where new innovations can be developed and tested, why limit the teams to pre 90s suspension technology?
I'm genuinely surprised they didn't expect this to happen. Gasses still work the same way as in the 80s! Its like they forgot all about the last time they ran ground effect 🤷♂️
I am not surprised with the porpoising effect making a return. Pitch sensitivity along with porpoising occur when racing cars generate a majority of the downforce from underfloor aerodynamics, specifically venturi tunnels. Since venturi tunnels require a flat plane for maximum effect, incorporating rake would reduce the overall efficiency and therefore negative pressure crated. As stated by others, the porpoising effect was the catalyst for R&D and eventual implementation of active suspension in F1 cars. Since the new regulations have banned inerters, heave springs and the FRIC (Front and Rear Interconnected Circuit) suspension system used by Mercedes-AMG F1 in previous cars until it was banned. The only option available is a combination of suspension setup and underfloor tuning.
Causes the air flow to separate? Isn't that the point of the floor? To separate the air inside de tunnel from the turbulent air around the car? I thought propoising was caused by a sudden spike in the preasure diferencial at the end of the tunnel that sucked the car down too hard and joining that with normal bumps cause the rear to lift.
You gotta check out the new NASCAR rides. For example, they run blown skirts. Warm air from the front tire is ducted with the hot air from the engine to create a turbulent boundary around the floor of the cars. This decreases the pressure under the purposely flat floor. Enhancing downforce.
Hey Matt...have you tried a different intonation for at least a couple of sentaces are you just set on the "entry number theee!" style of talking for each one?
It's not so much just up and down, its more back and forth between front and rear tires because the air flow gets severed in the back but the front wing is still working.
Psh. They knew about porpoising before they got there, but their sims aren't perfect so everyone is trying to figure out what the tolerances are for maximizing performance and fine tune their designs or they underestimated it because of the flat and uniform surface as opposed to the track which constantly contort beneath the car
idk about active suspension, but at least the mass damper should be allowed. The cars are running so much stiffer than they were last season and need that extra compliance/control.
The renult nose weight suspension along with active suspension being unbanned would be really good maybe if for stuff like that its to spec like they must be essentially identical to other cars suspension?
Resolve the problem by the end of third day in Barcelona ? they are good engineers, very good even, they are not magicians. Unless they expected the problems and have plans to deal with it in case it appears, I don't think fixing it is that easy.
They are basically a grid of sensors, a grid of small tiny tube like sensors that measure air pressure and aerodynamic related stuff. As good as simulations are, there is never anything quite like real world testing. I dont know the actual name for them though.
They have to fix this situation. An f1 car height changes through the race because the fuel changes. This is no joke, the cars could fly and all the safety we have in f1 doesn't work that well when the car crashes outside of the circuit. THIS IS SERIUS!!!!
They said increasing the ride height would solve the problem but that would reduce cornering speed, so I'm now confused, isn't a higher ride height supposed to give you more cornering speed (more air volume for the diffuser) ?
they had to have predicted it would either be a) an active problem or at the very least b) did their research on early implementations and knew it was an issue at the time.
Porpoising. I first hear that term in my childhood from a particular anime (yes, it's true, an anime mentioned this term), but never got a proper explanation about it.
They should be able to reduce it relatively easily. Many oscillations can be damped out with spring and damper changes, although cars that rely less on the ground effect and more on the wings will have an easier go of it.
yeah no not that easy imo. this isn't just a simple mass with a damper and a force with a constant frequency. The issue that the car will get pushed down even if you change the resonance frequency. The issue isn't the dynamic loading itself, but the car gets pushed down basically choking the floor reducing downforce which lifts the car up allowing air to flow below the car which increases the downforce then the car goes down which chokes the floor...
Hello I got a small question McLaren being the only car to switch between push and pull rod suspensions on both sides Is that helping mclaren in this proposing thing? How is it going for them with that different approach
PROBLEM: Purpoising occurs when the car gets sucked so close to the ground by the powerful underfloor aero that the diffuser stalls, leading to the rear end rising as the load is reduced, then dropping again as the load builds up. THE APPARENTLY OBVIOUS SOLUTION: Don't let the car drop to that critical level when the diffuser stalls. The way to do that is by making the cars run a few millimeters higher, which will make them lose some underfloor aero, sure, but it has to be better than dealing with all that purpoising. What am I missing?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a major safety issue with loss of downforce in very high speed corners? I feel like the bump stops on the suspension need to be solid and set higher than the point at which the airflow will stall.
F1 Drivers will definitely puke in Singapore , I’m a frequent road user in Singapore and I get sick from the huge bumps all the time , 2022 cars will be jumping in Singapore for sure
Will the teams fix the problem by the end of the first test sessions, no. Will they have a much better handle on what they will have to do for the Bahrain testing, yes.
There's _got_ to be a quick answer, or else it could become a safety issue. If drivers are losing vision and maybe doing a Webber & upchucking in their helmets, that's unacceptable. The bosses and their chief engineers *need* to get together with the FIA and Liberty and come up with a solution that can be applied throughout the grid. If one team already has the tech or knowledge of how to build a solution (Alpine...), they should be asked - or told, if necessary - to share it with everyone else. That way nobody gets killed as a result of the porpoising and no team either gets an advantage or is hobbled because they can't afford any more investment. Hell, even if Alpine insist on building them for each team to buy, then as long as the FIA set the price (allowing the teams to add this unexpected item in the bagging area to their budget) _and_ watch them build the parts (with no direction regarding which one goes in which car. They can draw lots or something. I've heard of similar actions in the past when there's been a team as sole supplier, so that no "deadly rival" is deliberately given a duff part), it could be done quite quickly. If not, the opening race might need postponing or even cancelling.
So some cars are bouncing more then others?,is it true Mercedes has a solution for it and the part is still being manufactured?,and will it be a quick fix or weeks of tweeking it to get it right?
Of course the teams will fix the issue, but damn it I wish they wouldn't! How much more fun would it be watching cars bouncing around the track... Think of the memes! Reminds me of those fairground/seaside arcade horse race games.
They’re gonna look like frogs in Monza lmao
And usa
Engineers can fix anything
Cars be like twerking
@@dragospahontu for real people we cheated off in class always had the answers
Laughs in knockhill (just imagine it if u know the track pls)
Porpoising is part of why the very first experiments in active suspension were done during the last seasons of the first ground effect era, the one that ended in 1982. It's also in part why spring rates were so high, and why Lotus experimented with with mounting their aero on a separate "chassis" with the Lotus 88... It was Lotus that did the experiments with active suspension too.
These are experiments I hope the FIA will allow teams to try out in the next few years. It would be really exciting to see 21st century engineers attempting to get their heads around a problems that stems back to the early 80s F1 cars.
They knew this back in the 80s , strange nobody predicted this would happen during the shakedown.
They probably expected it to happen to some degree but there was no way of now how bad it would be until they were allowed to actually send the cars around a track.
tbh I think WTF1 is being quite ridiculous with the claim that they didn't know. They must just be testing the limits at which it begins to happen.
If it had a name before in f1. They knew about its existence. They just didnt know it would be this bad
It's called a 40 year disconnect in action. Someone should have called Messrs Head, Murray and Bernard.
Given that the suspension is more simplified and than ever it wasn't much to expect, didn't they have a hydraulic and spring damping dereged from this gens cars.
So basically they're moving *UP AND DOWN* SIDE TO SIDE LIKE A ROLLER COASTER
Lol😂😂
Thats why lando did the fastesr lap yesterday, he used to it
Finally haha 🙂
@@jonathantuerah74 You do realise that everyone is very likely to be sandbagging, right?
This
Okay, this will sound nuts but, bring back active suspension?
Maybe for 2023, would be impossible now. All they could do now is find the right ride height and try to figure out they best place to stop the bottom out suspension
Or something similar to an f duct that drivers can use to redirect the airflow elseware?
we could see that in 2026
Unfortunately with the goal of keeping costs down, I don't think Active Suspensions will make a return.
@@tehDmez since there is a cost cap now i don't really understand that point. When you wanna have active suspension you gonna have to make a compromise on antoher part of the car. Adding costly things to the regulation won't make the cars more expensive since the teams just arent allowed to spend more
Haas has a different problem: Tortoising.
should be top comment
😂😂😂
Not anymore it seems
I noticed that yesterday, reminded me of all those slammed Hondas with cut springs.
F1 banned the heave spring that every car was running but Merc perfected. They can only have one spring per wheel. The heave spring would stop this or at least mitigate it. It was a third spring that controlled both of the wheels on the same axle.
I get that they wanna save money but come on, suspension damping is critical on ground effect cars. I just don't get it. What were they expecting.
no they didnt
Makes me think of the 1980 lotus 80. Mario Andretti said it was one of the worst F1 car's he ever drove due to the porpoising. Didn't think it would happen with 21st century F1 !
I remember that was the first time I heard the term porpoising. Colin made a major mistake with the Lotus 80.
@@twigsagan3857 bruh it's a bot that you are talking to
At least that was when car designers were allowed to design cars and not just subtle tweaks to a spec
the downforce isnt lost when lowering the ride height, getting lower actually increasing the downforce because it seals the floor better. the loss of downforce comes from the floor hitting the ground and losing suction or imperfections in the road
that is exactly what I was thinking. I like matt, but this didn't make any sense what so ever about what he aid.
Thank you! It made absolutely no sense that less air and less pressure meant lower down force
Nicely worded
Wow that was fast! Heard you guys talking about making a video on this on the stream earlier today. Impressive
this could be very dangerous going around copse at ultra high speed and the car starts bouncing and you go straight off the corner.
Especially if Hamilton understeers into the side of your car
almost certainly not going to porpois when loaded up in a corner like Copse at Silverstone . The real danger is hitting a rabbit or hare and attempting to catch the slide on liquid lubricant hare . Ask me how I know .
Well the old tires were 30-40% of the suspension. Something had to take up that travel.
From purist perspective, it is better to return mass damper than experiment with active suspension
It's a logical solution. Active suspension need more data analysis and fine tuning and requires more time to implement. Mass damper is relatively simple and can be readily implemented.
I wonder if it was less about not seeing this coming, and more about not being able to sim it accurately. On track testing gives them information they can't gather anywhere else. Maybe they just needed this data to accurately compensate for it.
as every team experiences it I would say its rule / conceptual problem. Without heave damping, active suspension, separate aero chassic ... this is hard to effectively counter
I think it's more likely that stopping it would most likely involve reducing downforce so maybe teams think it's worth the trade off. You can see cars stop porpoising when they have less downforce like when DRS is open.
@@charlesfowler4308 not a chance. The DRS situation is a band aid at best. None of these teams are going to allow this to happen. Porpoiseing is not only bad for the driver, it can damage the car, and changes how much downforce the car has second to second which will cause instability and crashes. They will address this in whatever way they need to. Engineers don’t leave things up to chance.
@@LaggerSVK which is exactly why they needed real world data to gauge how the car would perform and how harshly it would be effected in order to understand what countermeasures needed to be taken. And since everyone had difference designs, everyone also had different results.
How would it not be possible to sim it though? CFD software is pretty darn good these days and ought to be able to predict flow seperation and ground effect, and springs are easier to simulate than airflow, and if that's the primary cause of the issue... could you not just combine a CFD simulation with a spring simulation?
I was wondering if this would be an issue especially if u touch a curb starting the disturbance and oscillation. Its a good thing they have the low profile tires or it could be even worse
The low profile tyres could be part of the problem, the smaller distance in travel they provide can/could cause higher frequency oscillation.
A larger sidewall could absorb more of the load but could also make it worse if the load exceeds the potential of the sidewall, it would still have a lower frequency in oscillation at the cost of greater vertical travel.
2:33 so basically will have prs from now on, namely porpoising reduction system :)
nice pun
So bring back active suspension like Williams used decades ago. It may just save lives. I'd hate to see another Senna style death because a car couldn't handle its own movements under load.
I had wondered how teams would go between low and high downforce set ups. Seems like you'd need to tune it very carefully so that the max speed you hit wouldn't cause porpoising, but then you also want as much downforce as possible for turns.
Porpoising can cause brain injury, a well know phenomena in bob sledging sports.
Growing research that shows it might be the act of sledding itself that is the main driver of brain injury. With every run, athletes are exposed to immense force and vibration, causing micro-concussions that can add up to major damage. Those concussions are mild enough that they can go undiagnosed.
I really hope the editor is paid well because they're working overtime with all the recent uploads
This really does seem to be a recurring thing whenever a new floor philosophy is dreamed up. It happened a lot with the introduction of wing cars and was an issue again when F1 moved to the flat bottom and diffuser spec. It got solved fairly quickly the second time and I suspect it'll be a largely forgotten problem for most teams by late season.
Here's hoping to active suspension returning or separate chassis for air flow.
The cars are already so wildly different from just allowing ground effect. It's going to be awesome to see how much more different they can become.
This is the purpose of testing. To test and check that the data of the cfd and wind tunnels reflect data gathered on track. But somehow the FIA decides to reduce pre season testing to 6 days instead of 10 days.
So...to add onto this, another reason this is a problem is the fact that the cars are accelerating. If the cars were at a constant speed such as 300 kph the downforce and the suspension would equalize at a certain height. Because the cars are accelerating, as the bouncing happens the loads are increasing which is essentially acting as an outside force which doesn't allow the car to stabilize and in fact make it worse. The only way to counter this problem(from my limited knowledge) is to split the aero features into 2 categories, 1 that works the body, and one that is directly attaches to the tires. This is currently illegal and was last done by lotus 40 years ago.
cruisin up and down, side to side, like a rollercoaster!..
This was a problem for the original ground force cars and was only properly 'cured' by the use of side skirts. Unfortunately they were banned after cars became 'too fast' but Colin Chapman came up with his 'double chassis' Lotus which was banned before it ran competitively. The FIA banned side skirts altogether when teams started using variable ride height suspension that lowered the skirts to the track when at speed but returned to the mandatory ride height when stationary so as to pass inspection. Then the variable ride height was banned yet some cars to this day still seem to hug the ground closer during racing.
maybe if they reintroduce the FRIC system that used mercedes a couple of years ago will fix this
Officially requesting a 10hr loop of you saying purpoising
Man I would love to see the damper returning, it was so innovative and we don't have a looot of crashes that can cause some parts to fly so I see it safer than before
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of engineering where new innovations can be developed and tested, why limit the teams to pre 90s suspension technology?
because of the maFIA
I'm genuinely surprised they didn't expect this to happen. Gasses still work the same way as in the 80s! Its like they forgot all about the last time they ran ground effect 🤷♂️
i liked that you explained what porpoising meaned
I am excited to see what will happen in Cota😄😄😄
They'll run LA made Impalas with air suspension to negate the effect. Watch.
Mercedes Le Mans 99' possibly?
@@RandomGuy37 Not sure but 2019 vettel will also be happen
I am not surprised with the porpoising effect making a return. Pitch sensitivity along with porpoising occur when racing cars generate a majority of the downforce from underfloor aerodynamics, specifically venturi tunnels. Since venturi tunnels require a flat plane for maximum effect, incorporating rake would reduce the overall efficiency and therefore negative pressure crated. As stated by others, the porpoising effect was the catalyst for R&D and eventual implementation of active suspension in F1 cars. Since the new regulations have banned inerters, heave springs and the FRIC (Front and Rear Interconnected Circuit) suspension system used by Mercedes-AMG F1 in previous cars until it was banned. The only option available is a combination of suspension setup and underfloor tuning.
Causes the air flow to separate? Isn't that the point of the floor? To separate the air inside de tunnel from the turbulent air around the car?
I thought propoising was caused by a sudden spike in the preasure diferencial at the end of the tunnel that sucked the car down too hard and joining that with normal bumps cause the rear to lift.
You gotta check out the new NASCAR rides. For example, they run blown skirts. Warm air from the front tire is ducted with the hot air from the engine to create a turbulent boundary around the floor of the cars. This decreases the pressure under the purposely flat floor. Enhancing downforce.
Hey Matt...have you tried a different intonation for at least a couple of sentaces are you just set on the "entry number theee!" style of talking for each one?
It's not so much just up and down, its more back and forth between front and rear tires because the air flow gets severed in the back but the front wing is still working.
Psh. They knew about porpoising before they got there, but their sims aren't perfect so everyone is trying to figure out what the tolerances are for maximizing performance and fine tune their designs or they underestimated it because of the flat and uniform surface as opposed to the track which constantly contort beneath the car
The animation of the F1 car jumping out of the water is an epic all time underrated TH-cam meme
As an engineer, we would call this hunting essentially
This is an issue with helicopter blades as well, didn't know the term was used outside of aviation.
Would a slightly higher rake setup alleviate this issue?
Not an expert but I believe high rake would be very slow when aero is reliant on ground effect.
idk about active suspension, but at least the mass damper should be allowed. The cars are running so much stiffer than they were last season and need that extra compliance/control.
0:19 why is that Williams painted like that?What does that do?
these drivers will have no coxis/spines half way through the season if the regs don't get changed or a fix is found.
If the past 8 years have taught us anything, it is to never believe Mercedes when they claim they are suffering or slow!! ;)
The renult nose weight suspension along with active suspension being unbanned would be really good maybe if for stuff like that its to spec like they must be essentially identical to other cars suspension?
Lol the background music is great.
Just wanted to thank you guys for giving the world a little distraction and relief, in times of trouble and turmoil
Resolve the problem by the end of third day in Barcelona ? they are good engineers, very good even, they are not magicians. Unless they expected the problems and have plans to deal with it in case it appears, I don't think fixing it is that easy.
I think they did it on 'porpoise' to make it interesting
2022 cars in Spa:
"Uh, Houston, we have a problem."
Lando predicted it : "Moving up and down side to side like a rollercoaster."
Is this the same reason why idk 2010 DTM Cars (maybe a bit later) used to bounce like that?
Always wondered what the metal racks are the cars carry sometimes🤔
Pitot tubes to measure airflow
They are basically a grid of sensors, a grid of small tiny tube like sensors that measure air pressure and aerodynamic related stuff. As good as simulations are, there is never anything quite like real world testing. I dont know the actual name for them though.
I have been wondering this too, I heard someone mention its for testing the airflow.... but I don't know how it works.
@@TheBeardyGamer Well it basically is a rack with a lot of sensors on it, they measure how much air runs through each part of the car
2:29 is why you need to make sure you give the video editor a script with emdashes
They have to fix this situation. An f1 car height changes through the race because the fuel changes. This is no joke, the cars could fly and all the safety we have in f1 doesn't work that well when the car crashes outside of the circuit. THIS IS SERIUS!!!!
They said increasing the ride height would solve the problem but that would reduce cornering speed, so I'm now confused, isn't a higher ride height supposed to give you more cornering speed (more air volume for the diffuser) ?
As a wise man had once said: "Im moving up and down, side to side, like a rollercoaster"
they had to have predicted it would either be a) an active problem or at the very least b) did their research on early implementations and knew it was an issue at the time.
Porpoising.
I first hear that term in my childhood from a particular anime (yes, it's true, an anime mentioned this term), but never got a proper explanation about it.
They should be able to reduce it relatively easily. Many oscillations can be damped out with spring and damper changes, although cars that rely less on the ground effect and more on the wings will have an easier go of it.
True, but Im sure those changes in dampening will affect mid and slow speed cornering and downforce
yeah no not that easy imo. this isn't just a simple mass with a damper and a force with a constant frequency.
The issue that the car will get pushed down even if you change the resonance frequency.
The issue isn't the dynamic loading itself, but the car gets pushed down basically choking the floor reducing downforce which lifts the car up allowing air to flow below the car which increases the downforce then the car goes down which chokes the floor...
the idea of the new regs was to get more cars using ground effect so following someone wouldn't have as much dirty air.
Video on whether the war affects haas please
Hello
I got a small question
McLaren being the only car to switch between push and pull rod suspensions on both sides
Is that helping mclaren in this proposing thing? How is it going for them with that different approach
Maybe "feedback loop" is a more accurate term to describe what happens rather than "porpoising".
Great video thanks!
Wait - when did they do away with the moving belts in wind tunnels as stated in this video?
What does “separating the airflow mean“? It separates between what? Does someone know this more detailed?
I was reading it always as "porpoysing" lmao
Does anybody know if Newey was aware of this, since he is around for decades, and if the rb18 is having this issue or not?
Makes me wonder when Ferrari yesterday Charles came in for just a front wing change and went back out
Im gonna do it... Im gonna do it!
Moving up and down, side to side, like a roller-coaster.
I feel like this is why the merc suspension was the way it was last year
they just need different springs i guess, hopefully it won't affect handling
PROBLEM: Purpoising occurs when the car gets sucked so close to the ground by the powerful underfloor aero that the diffuser stalls, leading to the rear end rising as the load is reduced, then dropping again as the load builds up.
THE APPARENTLY OBVIOUS SOLUTION: Don't let the car drop to that critical level when the diffuser stalls. The way to do that is by making the cars run a few millimeters higher, which will make them lose some underfloor aero, sure, but it has to be better than dealing with all that purpoising.
What am I missing?
Am I the only one who thinks this is a major safety issue with loss of downforce in very high speed corners? I feel like the bump stops on the suspension need to be solid and set higher than the point at which the airflow will stall.
Can you do a video on the liveries teams are running. The camo style is nice , also what’s up with the pain splashes on some of the cars.
The old tyres had much more rubber to compensate for this
Add some tuned mass dampers i.e. Renault 2005-06. That would reduce it a fair bit.
Is it just me or are the 2022 f1 cars very cool looking, much better than the 2021 f1 cars imo
They look cool but if they're bouncing up and down at speed they won't be very cool at all
its predictable by how you design the underfloor and suspension. but dealing with it is hard.. although they do have the budget and r&d
Let's hope the teams can get a handle on this, otherwise it's going to be a mess. Unforseen retirements due to car damage, and early worn out parts.
Is Lotus' banned double chassis a solution too besides active suspension?
No, not safe and separetes Air much more. Heave Springs should help It
F1 Drivers will definitely puke in Singapore , I’m a frequent road user in Singapore and I get sick from the huge bumps all the time , 2022 cars will be jumping in Singapore for sure
Will the teams fix the problem by the end of the first test sessions, no. Will they have a much better handle on what they will have to do for the Bahrain testing, yes.
Imagine driving on a bumpy course like the circuit of the americas
Thanks!
Very interesting...
WTF1 is almost at 1 Million subscribers and let's do this
You can say
That they're moving up and down side to side like a rollercoaster
So interesting … Thanks 🙏 !!
There's _got_ to be a quick answer, or else it could become a safety issue. If drivers are losing vision and maybe doing a Webber & upchucking in their helmets, that's unacceptable. The bosses and their chief engineers *need* to get together with the FIA and Liberty and come up with a solution that can be applied throughout the grid.
If one team already has the tech or knowledge of how to build a solution (Alpine...), they should be asked - or told, if necessary - to share it with everyone else. That way nobody gets killed as a result of the porpoising and no team either gets an advantage or is hobbled because they can't afford any more investment. Hell, even if Alpine insist on building them for each team to buy, then as long as the FIA set the price (allowing the teams to add this unexpected item in the bagging area to their budget) _and_ watch them build the parts (with no direction regarding which one goes in which car. They can draw lots or something. I've heard of similar actions in the past when there's been a team as sole supplier, so that no "deadly rival" is deliberately given a duff part), it could be done quite quickly. If not, the opening race might need postponing or even cancelling.
wnat to believe that high rake cars or set up would sort the poorpoising out, lets see
So some cars are bouncing more then others?,is it true Mercedes has a solution for it and the part is still being manufactured?,and will it be a quick fix or weeks of tweeking it to get it right?
I know I'm not an engineer, but I wonder if they can use something like bump stops so the suspension can't compress too much.
Can you just make the aero/wing active so the aero will change depending on how fast the car go, rather than make the active suspension?
literally moving up and down like a roller coaster
Of course the teams will fix the issue, but damn it I wish they wouldn't! How much more fun would it be watching cars bouncing around the track... Think of the memes! Reminds me of those fairground/seaside arcade horse race games.
This man is fast with the animations
I'm sure they will solve it to next tests or to first race
Yeah, I don't see this being a huge problem by the next test day.