can't help but imagine someone trying to start a "pre-ban" pod in the commander area at Vegas, being asked to leave, and creating another round of twitter drama
As far as incentives go, keeping the ban tells anyone who wants to fix a new policy in place to make some death threats (which are free) so the old policy becomes the one that is Giving In to the Terrorists.
No. The bans were the right choice. People want a casual meta and that means removing consistency and power from the format. It was the correct choice and if there is a criticism it's that commander is TOO conservative. And no 'but muh money' is not valid. It is not the job of a format banlist to preserve your wallet.
But those people already think death threats work - just by virtue of the RC being disbanded and the format being handed to Wizards. Banned or unbanned, as far as they're concerned, they won.
"If one of the biggest American distributors were found to be making counterfeits..." Looks over at Konami v Upper Deck, which terminated Upper Deck's distribution of the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG and gave control of it to Konami.
I pretty much only play commander, and only with my small group of friends, and we're all sick of WOTC designing half the cards in every set for commander. And that's not even including the 4 commander decks they release with every set now, which is already exhausting on its own.
@@Scrimshaw_DuBois42 exactly the same for me. in 2017 we wanted more design focus on commander. we were thinking cards that said “each opponent” instead of “target opponent” but what we got was black lotus
Even if you hate the bans they can't unban them without enabling the most unhinged people on the internet after they've already been rewarded for their actions
I find the whole dynamic within Commander to be fascinating. The only real appeal it ever had to me was that it was a pseudo Type I experience with a few major outliers like the Moxen banned and a general expectation that you weren't supposed to go all-in on broken stuff. I never got very into it, as the games tend to be long and political, which are not my bag, but for the people who play it casually I don't see why table rules beyond 1 of, no classic Power are really needed. As pertains to competitive, I can see more of an appetite there for a more curated experience, but I think people underestimate the cost there, as people have long been basically treating Commander as Casual Type I, so any move, to me, should only really be made because the card is beyond the pale egregious. Maybe the competitive scene would benefit from more curation, but it seems like they're the ones who are leaning the hardest into the fast mana, so I'm not sure who those particular bans were meant to please.
This whole thing just screams of people not used to normal constructed formats and how they work. Sometimes cards are unbalanced and not great for the format and need to go. Sol Ring should have went as well… but whatever. Look at the price of Grief or Fury now vs peak price. Some decks ran about 4x of both and that is a lot of value lost after the bannings. Losing Grief or Fury was a hard hit to some decks in Legacy or Modern, but other than Nadu as a commander is losing the other 3 fast mana options really ruining your singleton deck? I have a book promo Mana Crypt… it is going to drop in price but that is just how constructed formats go.
These bans 100% should not be undone primarily because these cards being banned is better for the long term health of the format. They are all grossly overtuned, go in any deck that can cast them and have very negative play patterns. There was no good reason for these cards to be legal anywhere close to as long as they were, and waiting so long to do this instead of doing it 3+ years ago is part of the reason we are where we are now. The secondary reasons are that unbanning them would be a second slap in the face to people who sold the cards already and also it give the people harassing the RC what they want which is not a message we should be sending.
I disagree with both your points as they could simply be ruled zero out of casual games and cedh did not have a problem with them. Your second point is a super What If(?) fallacy because what we do know is the backlash is a result of people (and Stores) have a solid position in these product basically become worthless overnight. To have the position of how will minority group x that sold these cards (over the last week or so) feel versus people (and Stores) who actually lost quite a lot is a nonsensical reason for keeping the bans. I also want to remind you and people who would read this that this is more then just a player problem and while some may be fine wounding their local LGS as they are still trying to navigate servicing a player base going through a cost of living crisis, I simple am not. I think having a place(s) to go to play this game is more important than the feelings of a few or a billion dollar company having to embarrass themselves a little.
@@ThePenitentSquirrel The problem with "just rule zero them out" is that people saying that often assume that rule zero conversations will go smoothly. Cedric even did that in this clip. The reality is often that people disagree about what they want, and an external, "official" governing body can serve as a neutral way to resolve those conflicts. That's REALLY important when you're playing with new people, but it's important when playing with familiar people, too. I can give an example from personal experience. I've never liked the effect that Sol Ring has on commander games. Ages ago, probably around 2014, I talked to my commander playgroup about it, suggesting that everyone build some decks without Sol Ring. Most of the others didn't want to do that, so we didn't. Despite my continued dislike of the effects of fast mana in commander, I've never once played in a commander pod where no one was running cards like Sol Ring. It's frankly dismissive to genuine complaints to say "just rule zero the cards you don't like."
"They are all grossly overtuned" so what? Games need to end so we can play more games. "Slap in the face to the people who sold their cards already." Impulsive financial decisions come with risks.
@@dannydubs86 well then Commander then needs radical overhaul and needs to be transformed into a more standardize format (making it no longer casual). Because if the foundational rule zero doesn't work (based on your own words) and the format is broken. Your words not mine.
Basically, strong staple cards that are super expensive [$100-250] (also really only useable in Commander) were banned out of nowhere with flimsy reasoning. I say flimsy reasoning because normal EDH doesn't use them and has ways (rule Zero) to excluded them form games in the first place. Cedh, which is the competitive format, doesn't have a problem with them and actually needs them for 8-12 major decks in the format to work (so the bans torpedo a huge portion of the meta out of nowhere). It should also be mentioned this is coming off the heels of an internal controversy in Cedh surrounding the attempted creation of their own Rules Committee which while not perfectly related does establish emotions were high before the entire community got blindsided. The secondary issue is that WOTC used two of the cards as premium chase cards to push sales of two set release this year (Lost Caverns Of Ixalan and Commander Masters) along with Secret Lair Festival in a box (which contained specifically only collector booster from these two sets). Given that WOTC is a billion dollar company it is doubtful they did not know about the bans, and it was stated by members of the rules committee that this was "supposedly" in the works for a while (2 years or so). As a result, many are upset with WOTC because that is how a pump-and-dump scheme works. The third and more conspiratorial issue, it is there is some evidence of insider trading from the rules committee and major retailers. One possible example of this is Star City Game's delisting specifically the banned cards from their buy list 2-3 weeks before the bans were announced. The other issue much like the prior (pump and dump) is many people believe this is way for WOTC to push out old powerful cards (old stock) out of their decks (because Edh is suppose to be an internal format) and invest in the next big thing they create to help drive sales.
@@ThePenitentSquirrel It's not flimsy at all and absolutely they are used in casual EDH. They aren't esoteric combo pieces or enablers like Oracle and Demonic Consultation. They are best in class fast mana in format that even the timmy casual commanders are becoming more and more powerful because Wizards keeps printing broken commanders. cEDH is too small to matter. I'm sure there were some anger expressed in the community but they were overshadowed by the biggest whiners, the Whales. People who see magic as a investment and lost a ton of money because of the bans.
@@johngeraltI lost at least $2,000 because these bans. I don't care about the financial value, reprint everything at common for all I care. I just want to play the cards I own.
@@johngeralt Your reaction is that of the sad and egocentric who would dismiss how other people feel because you lack the core sense of empathy. Get some help, I genuinely feel sorry for you.
They should be legal or not based on an education opinion on their impact on gameplay. No other matters should factor in. It's not a banlists job to moralize the history of online discourse
It will absolutely never ever happen. You can call it a "reversing the ban", but it would really be "unbanning" now and we cant even get cards like coalition victory unbanned. They are gone forever and we need to deal with it
They will. But it will be in a way presented as being their new tier list system, not as a roll back. In order to minimize the negative outlook as much as possible.
What I have not loved about this discussion as a whole is that the most awful people have been largely disavowed of course but they did manage to pull the conversation their way. By that I mean that the majority voice on the internet seems to agree that the bannings were a bad thing and it was the reaction that was the issue. Bannings are a good thing for the health of the game. Bannings need to be able to happen whenever. And these cards in particular are absolutely absurd to expect to stay in a healthy format.
The main problem with that is that Commander is not really a format in the same way that the traditional 1 v 1 competitive formats are. It’s a broken environment, and always has been, and what you want from it varies widely from person to person. For some, it is a Vintage-like format with a unique rules set. For others, it’s an activity for killing time. Neither side is wrong.
@@BrunoAlbuquerqueBRQcommander has managed to be the most popular and healthy format sans recent bans. In fact I'd argue that the only cards that should be banned are ante cards and conspiracies. If people want to play with proxied Black Lotuses, Time Walks, and Ancestral Recalls, more power to them.
Why are commander softies so upset anyways. Don’t they have rule zero so no one has a bad time? Imagine if these babies played a competitive format and had their decks banned out from under them multiple times a year 😂
I don’t play commander, so take this with a grain of salt, but jeweled lotus is the one that gets me. Yes, it probably never should’ve been printed, but it just seems crazy to me to ban a card in literally the ONLY format where it has any text
I don't fully dislike the bannings, although they were definitely sudden and for odd reasons. However, it's not the first time cards have been banned in EDH for odd reasons; take Braids for instance. Banned for being a killjoy.
WTH banning Dockside has been talked about since it's release, Jeweled Lotus was always a 'problem' card, Mana Crypt is considered the 4th or 5th best card in Vintage Cube. Huge shock banning 3 known 'problem cards and the new kid on the block in Nadu. Sudden and Odd, really?
I don't understand why the people butthurt about the bans don't just play a completely unregulated cedh format. I mean, that's what the people sending death threats want right? Free mana and 1st turn goldfishes. That would allow the non-sociopaths to play commander without them, first of all and allow everyone else to play a game with lower power and consistency. I know why they would never agree to forming their own unregulated format though, because they are the whales and the average player consists of the soft targets they get off on beating (with money).
100% need to be undone. In the wotc twitch stream regarding commander future plans, a playgroup member in chat asked if they're planning to roll back the bans that alot disagree with, to which a community member replied "No negation with terrorists whatsoever". He got a good laugh out of that one, being that hes a veteran🤣 These ppl are unhinged & should kept far away from positions of power or influence.
This was one step below “creation of the RL” kinda bad. And no, they shouldnt immediately unban it yet, not because of the game, but because it would send TCGplayer into yet another free fall/free for all frenzy resulting in price spikes, cancelled orders, another round of refund policy updates and reminders, and just general chaos on the main secondary market platform of the game
The bans are fine. No one’s deck is completely invalidated because they can’t play mana crypt, jeweled lotus, or dockside. At worst it will slow them down by a fraction of a turn on average which should only matter to cedh players anyway.
@@neivafrost Wrong, bans are lame and while I don't condone what the people who attacked the RC did. I am against most bans on principle. A casual format should let people play mostly what they want and just have a minimal banlist, like before 9/23. Though there are some cards on there that could probably come off too.
So if people don't get their way, the solution is to have a tantrum, scream, and make death threats until you get your way? It's beyond the heath of the game at this point.
@@Babyboots1what percentage of players do you think sent death threats? I'd wager it's less than a hundredth of a percent. It's absurd to paint the actions of less than 0.01% onto the other 99.99%
can't help but imagine someone trying to start a "pre-ban" pod in the commander area at Vegas, being asked to leave, and creating another round of twitter drama
commander players are so hysterical
Unbanning would be beyond insane, you basically tell every unhunged lunatic that death threats work. Itll get worse next time theres a ban.
As far as incentives go, keeping the ban tells anyone who wants to fix a new policy in place to make some death threats (which are free) so the old policy becomes the one that is Giving In to the Terrorists.
No. The bans were the right choice. People want a casual meta and that means removing consistency and power from the format.
It was the correct choice and if there is a criticism it's that commander is TOO conservative.
And no 'but muh money' is not valid. It is not the job of a format banlist to preserve your wallet.
Yes, consumer confidence is beyond insane
But those people already think death threats work - just by virtue of the RC being disbanded and the format being handed to Wizards. Banned or unbanned, as far as they're concerned, they won.
What about all of us that want them unbanned who would never even consider sending a death threat?
"If one of the biggest American distributors were found to be making counterfeits..."
Looks over at Konami v Upper Deck, which terminated Upper Deck's distribution of the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG and gave control of it to Konami.
i just hate that commander has become the primary format. a casual multiplayer format just doesn’t hold under steam hammer that is 2020s magic
Dude you hit the nail on the head.
I pretty much only play commander, and only with my small group of friends, and we're all sick of WOTC designing half the cards in every set for commander. And that's not even including the 4 commander decks they release with every set now, which is already exhausting on its own.
@@Scrimshaw_DuBois42 exactly the same for me. in 2017 we wanted more design focus on commander. we were thinking cards that said “each opponent” instead of “target opponent” but what we got was black lotus
That’s what I was saying, how did a singleton multiplayer format surpass THE standard?
Even if you hate the bans they can't unban them without enabling the most unhinged people on the internet after they've already been rewarded for their actions
Absolutely terrible take. Don't punish everyone for the actions of a few.
I find the whole dynamic within Commander to be fascinating. The only real appeal it ever had to me was that it was a pseudo Type I experience with a few major outliers like the Moxen banned and a general expectation that you weren't supposed to go all-in on broken stuff. I never got very into it, as the games tend to be long and political, which are not my bag, but for the people who play it casually I don't see why table rules beyond 1 of, no classic Power are really needed. As pertains to competitive, I can see more of an appetite there for a more curated experience, but I think people underestimate the cost there, as people have long been basically treating Commander as Casual Type I, so any move, to me, should only really be made because the card is beyond the pale egregious. Maybe the competitive scene would benefit from more curation, but it seems like they're the ones who are leaning the hardest into the fast mana, so I'm not sure who those particular bans were meant to please.
This whole thing just screams of people not used to normal constructed formats and how they work. Sometimes cards are unbalanced and not great for the format and need to go. Sol Ring should have went as well… but whatever. Look at the price of Grief or Fury now vs peak price. Some decks ran about 4x of both and that is a lot of value lost after the bannings. Losing Grief or Fury was a hard hit to some decks in Legacy or Modern, but other than Nadu as a commander is losing the other 3 fast mana options really ruining your singleton deck? I have a book promo Mana Crypt… it is going to drop in price but that is just how constructed formats go.
I agree that banning cards is necessary. That being said these bans ABSOLUTELY change how some decks perform.
I knew mtg had a problem when a fan made, 100 card singleton multiplayer format surpassed standard in popularity
YES!!!!! *And* FREE The Library of Alexandria while they're at it!!!!
These bans 100% should not be undone primarily because these cards being banned is better for the long term health of the format. They are all grossly overtuned, go in any deck that can cast them and have very negative play patterns. There was no good reason for these cards to be legal anywhere close to as long as they were, and waiting so long to do this instead of doing it 3+ years ago is part of the reason we are where we are now. The secondary reasons are that unbanning them would be a second slap in the face to people who sold the cards already and also it give the people harassing the RC what they want which is not a message we should be sending.
I disagree with both your points as they could simply be ruled zero out of casual games and cedh did not have a problem with them. Your second point is a super What If(?) fallacy because what we do know is the backlash is a result of people (and Stores) have a solid position in these product basically become worthless overnight. To have the position of how will minority group x that sold these cards (over the last week or so) feel versus people (and Stores) who actually lost quite a lot is a nonsensical reason for keeping the bans.
I also want to remind you and people who would read this that this is more then just a player problem and while some may be fine wounding their local LGS as they are still trying to navigate servicing a player base going through a cost of living crisis, I simple am not. I think having a place(s) to go to play this game is more important than the feelings of a few or a billion dollar company having to embarrass themselves a little.
@@ThePenitentSquirrel The problem with "just rule zero them out" is that people saying that often assume that rule zero conversations will go smoothly. Cedric even did that in this clip. The reality is often that people disagree about what they want, and an external, "official" governing body can serve as a neutral way to resolve those conflicts. That's REALLY important when you're playing with new people, but it's important when playing with familiar people, too.
I can give an example from personal experience. I've never liked the effect that Sol Ring has on commander games. Ages ago, probably around 2014, I talked to my commander playgroup about it, suggesting that everyone build some decks without Sol Ring. Most of the others didn't want to do that, so we didn't. Despite my continued dislike of the effects of fast mana in commander, I've never once played in a commander pod where no one was running cards like Sol Ring.
It's frankly dismissive to genuine complaints to say "just rule zero the cards you don't like."
"They are all grossly overtuned" so what? Games need to end so we can play more games.
"Slap in the face to the people who sold their cards already." Impulsive financial decisions come with risks.
@@dannydubs86 well then Commander then needs radical overhaul and needs to be transformed into a more standardize format (making it no longer casual). Because if the foundational rule zero doesn't work (based on your own words) and the format is broken. Your words not mine.
@@ThePenitentSquirrel the format is and has always been broken lol. rule zero doesn't work beyond a small play group
No
Where is the whole episode. I checked on Spotify and the last one uploaded was August
Its on their patreon
(Cedric) Full episodes are available at patreon.com/theresleevables
This has been some good entertainment the last couple weeks!
Seems like a lot of hoopla for a kitchen-table format.
Can someone explain what the controversy is for us non commander players? This just seems like a normal set of bans.
Basically, strong staple cards that are super expensive [$100-250] (also really only useable in Commander) were banned out of nowhere with flimsy reasoning. I say flimsy reasoning because normal EDH doesn't use them and has ways (rule Zero) to excluded them form games in the first place. Cedh, which is the competitive format, doesn't have a problem with them and actually needs them for 8-12 major decks in the format to work (so the bans torpedo a huge portion of the meta out of nowhere). It should also be mentioned this is coming off the heels of an internal controversy in Cedh surrounding the attempted creation of their own Rules Committee which while not perfectly related does establish emotions were high before the entire community got blindsided.
The secondary issue is that WOTC used two of the cards as premium chase cards to push sales of two set release this year (Lost Caverns Of Ixalan and Commander Masters) along with Secret Lair Festival in a box (which contained specifically only collector booster from these two sets). Given that WOTC is a billion dollar company it is doubtful they did not know about the bans, and it was stated by members of the rules committee that this was "supposedly" in the works for a while (2 years or so). As a result, many are upset with WOTC because that is how a pump-and-dump scheme works.
The third and more conspiratorial issue, it is there is some evidence of insider trading from the rules committee and major retailers. One possible example of this is Star City Game's delisting specifically the banned cards from their buy list 2-3 weeks before the bans were announced. The other issue much like the prior (pump and dump) is many people believe this is way for WOTC to push out old powerful cards (old stock) out of their decks (because Edh is suppose to be an internal format) and invest in the next big thing they create to help drive sales.
@@ThePenitentSquirrel It's not flimsy at all and absolutely they are used in casual EDH. They aren't esoteric combo pieces or enablers like Oracle and Demonic Consultation. They are best in class fast mana in format that even the timmy casual commanders are becoming more and more powerful because Wizards keeps printing broken commanders. cEDH is too small to matter. I'm sure there were some anger expressed in the community but they were overshadowed by the biggest whiners, the Whales. People who see magic as a investment and lost a ton of money because of the bans.
@@johngeraltI lost at least $2,000 because these bans. I don't care about the financial value, reprint everything at common for all I care. I just want to play the cards I own.
@@johngeralt Your dismissive attitude is sad and pathetic. Get some help
@@johngeralt Your reaction is that of the sad and egocentric who would dismiss how other people feel because you lack the core sense of empathy. Get some help, I genuinely feel sorry for you.
They should be legal or not based on an education opinion on their impact on gameplay. No other matters should factor in. It's not a banlists job to moralize the history of online discourse
It will absolutely never ever happen. You can call it a "reversing the ban", but it would really be "unbanning" now and we cant even get cards like coalition victory unbanned. They are gone forever and we need to deal with it
They will. But it will be in a way presented as being their new tier list system, not as a roll back. In order to minimize the negative outlook as much as possible.
I think it’ll be two formats
Thats it time reprint the reserve list fuckit commander players need affordable moxes
short answer: No! long answer: uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm No!
They should unban them if they want to validate every person that sent death threats, yay
No, they shouldn't.
What I have not loved about this discussion as a whole is that the most awful people have been largely disavowed of course but they did manage to pull the conversation their way. By that I mean that the majority voice on the internet seems to agree that the bannings were a bad thing and it was the reaction that was the issue. Bannings are a good thing for the health of the game. Bannings need to be able to happen whenever. And these cards in particular are absolutely absurd to expect to stay in a healthy format.
Commander cannot be a healthy format without massive bans.
The main problem with that is that Commander is not really a format in the same way that the traditional 1 v 1 competitive formats are. It’s a broken environment, and always has been, and what you want from it varies widely from person to person. For some, it is a Vintage-like format with a unique rules set. For others, it’s an activity for killing time. Neither side is wrong.
@@BrunoAlbuquerqueBRQcommander has managed to be the most popular and healthy format sans recent bans. In fact I'd argue that the only cards that should be banned are ante cards and conspiracies. If people want to play with proxied Black Lotuses, Time Walks, and Ancestral Recalls, more power to them.
Why are commander softies so upset anyways. Don’t they have rule zero so no one has a bad time? Imagine if these babies played a competitive format and had their decks banned out from under them multiple times a year 😂
I don’t play commander, so take this with a grain of salt, but jeweled lotus is the one that gets me. Yes, it probably never should’ve been printed, but it just seems crazy to me to ban a card in literally the ONLY format where it has any text
You realize that it is played in fringe decks in Legacy and Vintage, right?
@@BAAWAKnight I mean sure, I guess if you just really want another 0 cost artifact
@@memyself3510 And you know about the ruling that mana produced with Doubling Cube doesn't have any restrictions on it, right?
I don't fully dislike the bannings, although they were definitely sudden and for odd reasons. However, it's not the first time cards have been banned in EDH for odd reasons; take Braids for instance. Banned for being a killjoy.
WTH banning Dockside has been talked about since it's release, Jeweled Lotus was always a 'problem' card, Mana Crypt is considered the 4th or 5th best card in Vintage Cube. Huge shock banning 3 known 'problem cards and the new kid on the block in Nadu. Sudden and Odd, really?
I don't understand why the people butthurt about the bans don't just play a completely unregulated cedh format. I mean, that's what the people sending death threats want right? Free mana and 1st turn goldfishes.
That would allow the non-sociopaths to play commander without them, first of all and allow everyone else to play a game with lower power and consistency.
I know why they would never agree to forming their own unregulated format though, because they are the whales and the average player consists of the soft targets they get off on beating (with money).
YES! They just promoted the sets to us! Then ban the cards? THE CHASE CARDS? BAS BUSINESS PRACTICES
IF YOU USE CAPSLOCK YOUR POINTS DONT GET VALID
@@Karonar It wasnt even full capslike smart guy
@@CAUSTICITY-w3i still a dumb take 🤣
@@Karonar Get a life LOL. Sad.
@@CAUSTICITY-w3i lol. Well, at least I got one.
No. The player base should form their own formats and ignore Wizards.
I know some people liked them, but these bannings were bad for the game.
100% need to be undone. In the wotc twitch stream regarding commander future plans, a playgroup member in chat asked if they're planning to roll back the bans that alot disagree with, to which a community member replied "No negation with terrorists whatsoever". He got a good laugh out of that one, being that hes a veteran🤣
These ppl are unhinged & should kept far away from positions of power or influence.
This was one step below “creation of the RL” kinda bad. And no, they shouldnt immediately unban it yet, not because of the game, but because it would send TCGplayer into yet another free fall/free for all frenzy resulting in price spikes, cancelled orders, another round of refund policy updates and reminders, and just general chaos on the main secondary market platform of the game
Of course they should, but will they? If they do, it probably won't be for awhile because that would create problems.
The bans are fine. No one’s deck is completely invalidated because they can’t play mana crypt, jeweled lotus, or dockside. At worst it will slow them down by a fraction of a turn on average which should only matter to cedh players anyway.
@@neivafrost Wrong, bans are lame and while I don't condone what the people who attacked the RC did. I am against most bans on principle. A casual format should let people play mostly what they want and just have a minimal banlist, like before 9/23. Though there are some cards on there that could probably come off too.
So if people don't get their way, the solution is to have a tantrum, scream, and make death threats until you get your way? It's beyond the heath of the game at this point.
@@Babyboots1 you can already tell OP was one of the ones that sent death threats...I wonder what was their alt lol.
@@Babyboots1what percentage of players do you think sent death threats? I'd wager it's less than a hundredth of a percent. It's absurd to paint the actions of less than 0.01% onto the other 99.99%