I've always wandered why James wasn't the secret keeper(like bill in deathly hallows) this would mean Voldemort would have to find James to get in but to find James he would have to get in it creates a paradox
There's the theory that it wasn't the house, but rather James and Lily themselves who were locked under the spell. Bill was the secret keeper of his house (like it happened with Grimmauld Place), but what Wormtail was keeping was the Potters (like, their souls or bodies). That would explain why after Voldemort's fall, Hagrid could find Harry.
@@youdontknowme236There is a theory that the Secret Keeper has to be CAPABLE of revealing the secret if they choose, hence why wizards don't use creatures that can't speak a human language, or house elves, who could simply be forbidden by their masters to reveal the secret
The scariest implication of what you said regarding secret keepers is that ole Voldy could have hidden a horcrux, forced someone to become a secret keeper for it, and then immediately murdered them, leaving it unfindable. The perfect defense.
@@Julian-pw5mv but then the one who he marks as his equal could find it as horcuxes would be considered secrete keepers to when he could just kill one of his follows and have it forever lost and be immortal
@@Julian-pw5mv yea but its still a risk he would have to take versus guaranteed immortality for example someone could put him under the imperious curse or something
My favorite "What if?" revolves around Snape's father not being abusive to him and his mother. Everything changes. His relationships, his career, his prejudices, and even the parts of his personality he chooses to surface and which to suppress all play huge roles in the story of Harry Potter. In my mind, removing that trauma and replacing it with a loving, supportive home creates a fascinating domino effect.
I think it’s weird how Sirius says “pick someone less obvious” and then they just switch to another close friend. Like. It’s still obvious. If anything they should have picked Petunia or something. She did a great job of never mentioning anything magic to anyone. Or Snape. They definitely wouldn’t pick him, but he would have kept that secret at all costs if it meant Lily’s safety.
Honestly, they should have just had James (or Lily) be the secret keeper. We know that you can do that, since Bill is the secret keeper for shell cottage in Deathly Hallows.
One problem with Neville being the chosen one: Lily’s sacrifice only work because she didn’t have to die she chose to, and Voldemort had no reason to spare either of Neville‘s parents therefore they wouldn’t be able to choose to die. So how then would the sacrifice be enough to protect Neville?
The point is more that fate will get in the way and something will stop Voldemort from actually killing Neville, as Voldemort is destined to mark one child, and then for them to battle it out later. It is just that Harry was able to do this, and end up winning, thanks to Lily's sacrifice.
I know many like to say that Neville could also been chosen by prophecy, but the simple fact is that he wasn't. The most important part of it was that Voldemort would mark Harry as his equal - Voldemort choosing Harry was pre-written in the prophecy itself. There was never a choice or different possibility. Ignoring that part is like changing the month of Chosen One's birth to something other than July (that would mean Harry wouldn't qualify).
@@NaoyaYami The prophecy doesn't state WHO the chosen one is, only the circumstances around them, which actually do fit Harry AND Neville. The requirement is that Voldemort then choose one and mark them as his equal, an act that he WILL do, according to the prophecy, but again, the matter of who isn't stated. The only things mentioned in regard to who he would choose are the circumstances under which they would be born, and no clear name was given. Effectively, if Voldemort had no other option than to hunt down the Longbottoms, then Neville would, in fact become the chosen one, due to the nature of the prophecy. TL;DR: The prophecy was slightly open-ended, allowing for the chosen one to be either of the choices available to Voldemort, and if Voldemort's hand was forced, Neville would have become the chosen one.
@@christianrose9166 No, Voldemort marked Harry as his equal because he heard (part) of prophecy. This is what's called self-fullfilling prophecy, meaning it only comes to pass because relevant people become aware of it (kinda like the story about Oedip). Voldemort didn't choose, because he didn't know there were 2 children that fit the description. Potters were also only hiding because they knew Voldemort would come after Harry. It all only happened because Snape heard Trelawney that one time.
There is one difference between Harry and Neville though: Snape was in love with Lilly and thus Voldemort gave her the chance to 'step aside' Nevilles mum wouldn't have that chance and probably die fighting, so Neville wouldn't survive
Good point, and since Neville’s mum was also an Auror he might have considered her too dangerous to leave alive even if someone had pleaded for her life.
Ok so interesting possibility and hear me out. Sirius writes to Lily while the Potters are in hiding, ergo he's in on the secret (not sure how owl post works here. Do you need to be in on the secret to send an owl? Let's just assume you do.) In this case, obviously James and Lily have allowed Peter to tell Sirius where they are. If Sirius was the secret keeper, they probably would have instructed the other way around, had Sirius tell Peter. Therefore what I think would happen is Peter is like "Hey Voledemort. I know where the Potters are. I'm not the secret keeper so I can't tell you. But I can tell you who the secret keeper is. It would be a shame if he were to die." Voldemort kills Sirius, Peter becomes a secret keeper, and now the only immediate change is that Hagrid has to find a different way to get Harry to the Dursleys. Oh and I guess book 3 is very different.
I was just about to day this. I was under the impression that aside from James, Lily and Peter, there were 4 people "in" on the secret: Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore and Bathilda Bagshot.
You don't need to be in on the secret to send an owl. Harry sends plenty of owls to Ron, Hermione and Sirius at the start of the fifth book, before he's told the location of Headquarters.
@@luciemanson2546 Bathilda Bagshot, however, had actually visited them. I can't imagine James and Lily letting her in on the secret without letting Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore in.
A very crritical thing you missed here: If Voldemort dies after marking Neville, the Potters are still in hiding, so Bellatrix would have just as little chance of find them as Voldemort did. Which means, whether Sirius dies or not, so long as Voldemort attacks the Longbottoms while waiting for the Potters to come out of hiding, Harry will most likely grow up with his parents. Belatrix will likely still find someone to torture (could be Wormtail if he doesn't escape again) and end up in Azkaban. After a few years of rounding up death eaters, the department might declare the war over (or whatever they did in the original timeline), and Harry will probably grow up hearing the stories of Neville Longbottom, the boy who lived. Ofcourse if we want to increase the sadness, in this timeline, where the Longbottoms are dead, the Potters can't be found to be tortured, another unfortunate target for Bellatrix to torture could be the Weasleys. Arthur works at the ministry and that would be reason enough for Bellatrix, so we might instead see a timeline where Bill and Charlie have to raise their four younger brothers and (unless we want to be more depressed) one infant sister with two parents in St. Mungo's. What would THAT look like. Precy's ambitions fuel by the loss of his parents, Fred and Geroge's mischief an outlet for not having their parents around, Ron being bossed around by his brothers from birth in an even greater extent and Ginny never knowing a mothers love. I at least like to imagine that even though Bill might still get to work in Gringotts (though at a local desk job instead of traveling) and Charlie would probably have to forego his dragon research, when Ron meets the rich Harry Potter and the famous Neville Longbottom, the Weasley's lifes get slightly better as they start spending more of their hollidays in Godric's Hollow instead. I imagine that, in their first summer, Ron runs away from the Burrow after finally having another place to go, their second summer, Charlie wins the lottery and gets them the holliday they deserve, then, after their 3rd year the Potters pays for all to go to the Quidditch World Cup and then as Voldemort makes his return, with Neville against all odds winning the tri wizard tournament, the Potters become as protective of the Weasly's as Molly became of Harry.
If it is like that then I think that we would have ron Harry and Neville as the team instead of Harry ron and hermione , maybe hermione might join and then there might be a four , do you think Neville would still be bad at magic now that he is the boy who lived ?
@@getBhavinShah maybe Neville not being as naturally good at magic ends up real problem for Dumbledore. During the first and second year (both the plots still in play) Dumbledore becomes increasingly worried and frustrated that "his" chosen one can't even work the simplest magic and therefore makes the teachers push him even harder. Neville ofcourse doesn't respond well to being pressured and in the thirds year he actually gets ready to quit Hogwarts outright! Harry, Ron and Hermione are able to talk him out of it, but he doesn't really improve much until his names comes out of the Goblet of Fire. Now, again with the help of the best witch and wizard in his year training him, without the teachers pressure looming over him all the time, he actually makes progress enough to survive the tournament and the graveyard. And when Umbridge tries shutting down Hogwarts and the gang forms Dumbledore's Army, Neville immediately points to Harry and Hermione as the best teachers he ever had, leading to them teaching the DA.
@@TP_Rockstar although with Neville being the Boy Who Lived, Draco Malfoy and Harry Potter would never meet on the train(Draco would have no reason to go find harry).
I think in the scenario stated it would of played out as follows 1) Sirius lets wormtail and other trusted friends know to be able to visit the potters (believing that as long as no-one told a powerful enemy all would be safe. Remember they all still trusted Peter at this point. 2) Wormtail leads Sirius into an ambush where Voldemort and associates kill him. This causing the Fidelius charm to be weakened as now all who Sirius told become secret keepers. 3) Wormtail is now free to tell old moldy warts the location of the Potter residence. 4) Story progresses as per usual with the exception of Sirius being dead and no-one knowing Pettigrew was the mole so he is walking around free. (unless a legilimens caught him out in the lie)
I sincerely doubt that the Potters would stay at their current home in Godric’s Hollow if their Secret Keeper was killed by Voldemort. They probably would’ve moved once again, and, to keep Harry safe and their friends safe, they’d make someone inconspicuous the Secret Keeper. Like Dumbledore himself. Voldemort loses that battle. He can’t touch Dumbledore, and Wormtail can’t get any info out of him. Which either leads to Wormtail being outed or Voldemort going after the Longbottoms instead.
I really like this new format. There are so many things that could have gone differently. If Peter was in Slythin and never became friends with James. If the Dursleys were nice people or a supportive family to Harry. If Remus knew about the switch and that Peter was the secret keeper I think this will be a fun avenue to go down and look for to future Harry Potter What Ifs
Remus would do everything he can to make sure that Harry knows the truth. If Peter was in Slytherin then he would join Death Eater crowd. Dursleys as a supportive family and nice people? Hard to imagine as even before Harry comes they hate him as he is a wizard. And Dursleys don't like anything different from the everyday events.
Actually we know Pettigrew was in the Potter's house on at least one acassion because of Lily's letter, which means he is under the fidelius charm, so if Snape or Voldemort had killed Sirius and Lupin, then Pettigrew would have been a secret keeper and have told Voldemort, probably making everything go the same minus the plot for the Prisoner of Azkaban and Dumbledore said that not all profecy's come true, which could mean that Voldemort doesn't have to mark them as his equal if he never finds them. Anddd if Voldemort hunts down Neville, Snape wouldn't ask Voldemort to spare his mother, would he? So because Alice Longbottom would of never had the choice to get out of the way, Neville and his family (probably) would have all died, having no one as the chosen one.
Him being there could've been a direct result of him being secret keeper, there's no guarantee he'd have been allowed to visit if they had made Sirius the secret keeper.
@@thebuddercweeper oh yeah that's true, especially since they thought that someone was the spy, I was going off of Grimald Place. But I would hope that they would of still gotten some visitors, the letter already said that James was restless. Hopefully some visitors would of cheered him up. Did it say that Bathilda Bagshot visited?
@@peradabanbaruindonesia1546 I believe it was more than just being werewolf. They didn't see each other very often, Remus went on strange secret missions, they were still quite young and anxious about the war around - so very prone to rash judgment. Maybe they thought werewolves convinced him to their way of life? Maybe Voldemort found out something only Remus knew (but in reality Snape or Pettigrew heard it in secret)? We really don't know, and since it wasn't even mentioned on Pottermore, I guess we won't know, unless HBO really will make new show - tbh, even remake in form of series might be opportunity to explain it.
I always thought Sirius knew exactly how the Fidelius charm worked. They were suspicious of a spy in the order by that point, but didn't know who it was. If the secret keeper is killed, everyone he has told, possibly including the spy, would then become the secret keeper. That's what Sirius was worried about. He didn't fear that he would ever give up the secret. He wasn't afraid of being killed or tortured for himself. He knew that that was a possibility regardless. He worried that, upon his death, the secret would be out.
Or, since one incident involving full moon, Lupin and James saving Snape after Sirius spilled how to pass the Willow to Snape he might not entirely trust himself to keep secrets. Torture? fine. Threats? fine. Something Snape did to get him to spill? NOT fine. If Snape didn't do something to poke the info out of him, why would he ever trust it? He's still able to push Sirius' buttons as he pleases! So...
@@madethistocomment727 Or, in other words, Snape annoyed him so much he spilled. He's very good at annoying Sirius, isn't he? That was a very important secret though -- something that seriously damaged the relationship of Sirius and Remus along with Sirius' confidence in his ability to keeping secrets!
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 that would not be "in other words" because it's a different scenario entirely. One where he deliberately told with a purpose in mind, and one where he spilled as an outburst from being annoyed. It's also possible, but I'm more inclined to believe what my initial comment said. If Sirius spilled the secret UNINTENTIONALLY because he was "so annoyed," that would have been by a type of coercion. The way the fidelius charm works is that the person cannot be tortured or coersed. He/or she has to want to give up the info. No matter how annoyed he may be, Sirius would never want to do that. There was no Fidelius charm around Lupin's secret so he could be annoyed into it, but I don't think that is a possibility in this case.
While Neville becoming the chosen one is the most likely scenario there is one other thing to consider, the longer the war goes on the more likely it becomes that a new child meets the criteria for the chosen one (parents who defy voldy 3 times, born late July/early august, has someone who loves them). fanfic writers you too can be the chosen ones
Ok but in the letter Harry found at Grimauld Place, Lily says that James was already having a hard time being cooped up in one place. I don’t think he’d be able to just sit there knowing that Sirius and Remus were being hunted down by the death eaters.
Makes little sense that James would not hide his best friends away as well at a later time. Think about it as a three layored charm. First Potters taken to safety. Then Sirus becomes secret keep. A few days later Sirus vanishes from the public view. Hides in New Zealand and Lupkin becomes his secret keeper. Remember the Wizard War is only in the UK and Europe. Finally Lupkin joins Sirus in New Zealand and so one else, say Mr. Wesley becomes his secret keeper.
I forever believe that Dumbledore went to Sirius and was like "you dude, you should totally give Peter the secret keeper duties" as he probably planned this whole thing to begin with
he couldn't possibly know about the sacrifice magic though... his big plan was only born when he found out about the connection between Harry and Voldemort.
As others have mentioned below, it wouldn't change much in terms of whether James and Lily are found and killed. It would only add one extra step to Peter's betrayal. How it went in the story, James and Lily were in hiding for over a year and had visitors (Bathilda, Sirius, and possibly Lupin and Dumbledore), so in a world where Sirius is secret keeper, Peter is trusted with their location so he can visit. He can't reveal the location, but he can tell Voldemort that he's been told, that Sirius is the secret keeper, and that if Sirius is killed, he will become one of a handful of secret keepers and be able to tell him everything. Thus, it only adds the extra step of having to kill Sirius first, but Peter still becomes secret keeper, tells Voldemort, and gets James and Lily killed, leading to Harry surviving the curse, Voldemort losing his powers, and Harry becoming the chosen one. The real question is what would happen after. In the real story, Sirius immediately knows Peter was the traitor because he was the secret keeper, so he confronted him, and was framed for Peter's murder as well as the murder of the 12 muggles Peter killed in the process. But in this alternate scenario, Sirius is dead, and the identity of who betrayed the Potters isn't as immediately obvious. It would depend on how many people Sirius told. Assuming just the 4 mentioned above, Lupin and Peter would be the most obvious suspects, and with Lupin being a werewolf, he might be the one most people assume guilty. But that raises 2 other questions. Would Lupin even be in on the secret? We're never told if Lupin was told where they were and allowed to visit, and in Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius admits that he suspected Lupin and that's why he never told him about the secret keeper switch. So if Sirius had been secret keeper, he might not have told Lupin at all. The other question is, would Lupin have deduced Peter was the traitor and confronted him as Sirius did? Thus giving him the opening to frame him for the same crime? Depending on how you imagine the immediate aftermath, a lot of other questions surface. If Lupin had been framed like Sirius was, would he have survived Azkaban? He didn't have an animagus form to protect himself from the dementors at times, and in fact his werewolf transformation is painful and exhausting, it would've added to his suffering, making it tougher for him to survive and escape. If he never escaped, would Peter have exposed himself and go searching for Voldemort? Or would he have continued his ruse as Scabbers. Heck, for that matter, if he was never confronted or suspected about the betrayal, would he have gone into hiding at all, or would he have searched for Voldemort immediately.
You are forgetting an important factor. If Sirius was the Secret Keeper and got killed, the Potters would've known that their secret was known to more people, which probably would've made them react differently to the situation itself considering the paranoia that existed at that time. The main reason for their downfall was that when Peter exposed them to Voldemort, they couldn't prepare for it and therefore were completely caught off guard and killed. When they knew they had to and were ready, the Potters had already escaped Voldemort before (as the prophecy states), so if Sirius was the Secret Keeper and they knew he was dead, they probably would've been more prepared to an attack and could've maybe escaped or they would've changed locations before an attack even happened.
@@m1xd2323 you're absolutely right. I didn't actually forget it, I didn't consider it because it opens even more possibilities. Voldemort would know he has a limited window to act, how long would he take to head to Godric's Hollow? Would the Potters have time to learn of Sirius's death and adjust? If they do, how do they adjust? Would they attempt a second Fidelius charm in a different location? If so, do they ask one of their remaining friends to be secret keeper, or do they go straight to Dumbledore. It all hinges on how Voldemort handles his plan. In theory he could take Peter with him to kill Sirius, have him reveal the location immediately and then head straight for the location, but it's hard to imagine his plan working that smoothly
@@e.fideltapiaflores4638 Yeah, it creates a bunch of other possibilities. I don't know if that's true, but i assume that when a Secret Keeper dies for some reason, the people involved in the secret must know somehow, otherwise it's a pretty big loophole in the spell. The only thing that is 100% sure is that their situation would've been improved if Sirius was the Secret Keeper, they might've still died, but it would've taken longer atleast.
@@m1xd2323 if the secret keeper dies, all the people who were told the secret become secret keeper in turn. They mention it after Dumbledore dies, he was secret keeper for the order headquarters at Grimmauld Place. After his death everyone in the order becomes secret keeper themselves, which is why they stop using it as headquarters, the protection is greatly diminished. It's also why Hermione is able to reveal the location to Yaxley when he follows them there. Because Dumbledore told her the secret, she became secret keeper herself upon his death, so when she took Yaxley there, she exposed the secret to him. Either way, you're right, with Sirius as secret keeper, there's still a path to get them for Voldemort, but there's also various windows of opportunity for them to escape him at least one more time. It's hard to determine exactly how it would've gone down.
But would bellatrix have been able to find James and Lily if they were still under the fidealus charm? Also would Harry have been allowed to go to Hogwarts or would he have just had to live in the house forever
@@salomonhernandez792 True, but the Fidelius would still be active, and AFAIK Bellatrix and co. mainly managed to take down Frank and Alice by surprising them at home... something they couldnt do at Godrics Hollow.
Voldemort couldn't just looking a child without context and just know that he is THE boy he was looking for... except Harry is the control C control V of his father.... so he is really unfortune anyway...
That's a bad idea. As long as James and Lily are not the secret keeper, they can just come in and leave without consequences as long as they survive that. They don't need to hide all the time. When they are under attack they could just go back. When they are secret keepers, every time someone sees them leaving the place they risk sharing the secret. In deathly hollows exactly that happened when the ministry guy grabbed Hermine as she teleported to the secret place. If she wasn't a secret keeper the charm would have repelled the guy or maybe both because they can not share the secret.
Nah I think by that point Sirius would have grown to distrust Dumbledore, and seen through his kind wise man act and instead seen him as someone who is manipulating everyone around him for his own agenda, and effectively raising children to fight in his war. Sirius wouldn't have trusted that Dumbedore wouldnt just give the Potters up for "the greater good" if the time came
The guy who groomed Harry like a lamb for slaughter? Dumbledore would have told voldemort where they were just to fast track the whole mark him as his equal bit 😂
The thing with fidelius charm is that it passes on to all who know. Voldemort is already set to kill Potters. Assuming Peter was told where they live so that he can visit (Sirius was visiting in original, so I think Peter would be told too), once Sirius “would die before telling anybody”, Peter would become (one of many) secretkeepers, and look! it’s snitching time again.
You don't need to assume he'd be told, Peter did visit, Lily mentioned it in her letter to Sirius: "Wormy was here last weekend, I thought he seemed down"
@@canadianeh4792 well yes, but he was a secret keeper in the continuity, of course he could come. If Sirius was one, Sirius would have to actually tell Peter the secret, same as Peter did to Sirius in the original continuity. That is why I pit there the assuming part
Yes! I was looking for this comment! The premise of the “what if “ doesn’t work with the way we know the secret keeper position is passed on after somebody dies
This is one that’s been in my head since your Dumbledore’s Big Plan series. What if Sirius had gotten to Harry and transformed into a human before Harry called the Knight Bus?
I love this style of video and you executed it amazingly! Would love to see more. I wonder if the spell would have backfired if Voldy had gone after Neville, because Snape wouldn't have asked for him to spare Frank or Alice, so Frank or Alice wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the decision to sacrifice themselves for their son. I also wonder how anyone would have found James or Lily in this scenario, if they'd stayed in their house, but who knows, maybe they went out for fresh air. Again, love it!
I re-read the books recently and something that stood out to me so starkly is that in the 7th book all the Weasleys have to go into hiding once Ron is discovered with Harry at Malfoy Manor - but when Bill tells Harry about this, he says that Arthur is the secret keeper for all the family at Muriel's and he's the secret keeper for him and Fleur at Shell Cottage BUT that completely goes against the Fidelius Charm rule of no inhabitant as their own secret keeper. It bugs me so much when JK messes up on her own details like this, but to make it less of a painfully dumb author error I just headcannon that Bill said it the wrong way around. Ofc Arthur is keeper for the cottage, and Bill is keeper for Muriel's. Bill just rushed the words and got confused I guess.
How about if Lupin has been the secret keeper, he was just as devoted to the potter as Sirius plus him being a werewolf means people probably wouldn't try to talk to him. Yes i get that people weren't trusting werewolves at that time but in my opinion the fact that James trusted Lupin might have helped Sirius get over his own trust issues towards Remus
@@tacoclaus8168 That was before the war. When the war hit a lot of werewolves were being turned to Voldy's side and they say in the book that even though they trusted him it was too dangerous to risk Lupin becoming secret keeper. There was also a bigger risk of Lupin dying just for being a werewolf and thus making everyone who was told secret keeper.
@@ylvadahlstrom1628 I agree there is the risk of Remus being killed simply because he's a werewolf but as J pointed out in the video if the secret keeper dies with out telling anyone then no one would actually be able to find the potters plus even if Remus hasn't told anyone it's possible Sirius would become secret keeper as he already knew the location of the potters since James and Lily made him Harry's godfather
I think in the books was said that in that moment when they wanted to perfom fidelius charm lupin was far away with some kind of order of the pheonix mission so sirius suggested to trust petigrew then
What if Harry had been sorted into Slytherin, but still got friends with Ron on the train and refused Dracos offer of friendship? What if Peter had been properly restrained (eg. petrificus totalus) when they took him up to the castle. Or if Remus had remembered his potion that day? What if Harry had never given the map to the wrong Moody? What if Harry had touched the triwizard cup already on 2 instead of 3, therefore leaving Cedric behind?
1) Harry would have been an outsider in his dorm and, extensively, his home, as Slytherins would never accept him with a nlood traitor friend instead of a highly influential pure blood. 2) Voldemort couldn't have returned in Little Hangleton, and if eventually he does, the wizarding world would have been ready for him, as Dumbledore's wild statements have been proven right in the past. 3) By that point in the timeline, it wouldn't have made much difference. Crouch Jr would have been caught, but he had, by that time, played his part. The Ministry may have believed Dumbledore though. 4) Nothing, except Cedric would have survived and Harry would have missed out on his relationship with Cho Chang.
I like to think harry being protected at all made Voldy want to go kill him. It could've been Neville, but the fact Harry had a bunch of protection, including a fidelius charm, placed on him .. he'd think Dumbledore knew he was the chosen one, not Neville.
@@chickenpanda1179 weren't his parents not tortured by this point? And his grandparents also could do that. With how his grandmother talks about his parents any of them (or her) would've do it.
Such a great montage of all the rough things that happened. Only thing missing was a quick "It's pretty obvious" and a Voldemort laugh (never a bad time to use that clip).
theory idea. im Listening to OOTP again and something occured to me: did umbridge have a time turner? she seems to be doing a lot. after trelawney and hagrid are on probation she is in every one of their classes, not just harry's divination and care of magical creatures lessons, but all the classes for all grades and houses. she is also inspecting all the mail herself (it is approved by the high inquisitor herself as per easter packages) also since she is in harry's career advice w/ mcgonogall id assume she is in every students career advice. many other things as well but thats all i can think of off the top of my head. edit: also she is teaching all of her own classes of course and being the headmistress
probably not but maybe. The core classes from the first 2 are held most often. Take herbology 2 classes per year for years 1-5 and one class each for years 6 &7 means Sprout teaches 12 classes a week. Trelawney only 8 per week. Umbridge is like Sprout. There are 4 classes per day for 20 possible classes.
If Umbridge had a time turner, she would have prevented her downfall. I believe she didnt really do all this herself, for example the mail. I think she just let Filch read the mail and claim it was her to scare off the students. And I believe she concentrated on fighting Harry and the Order and cared less about the average headmaster duties. And she just works really hard in general.
Here's a dark what-if: What if Voldemort succeeded in killing Harry that night when he was a baby? Could he have been stopped at all later on by Dumbledor or Snape, or Sirius, or someone else?
@@lichterin143 no, there is still a prophecy - Voldemort just already fulfilled it. "either must die at the hand of the other" already happened when Harry was a 1-year-old.
@@SuperCarlinBrothers In this scenario with Sirius as the Potters' secret keeper, would Neville have survived? I mean Voldemort wouldn't have offered Alice Longbottom a chance to live as the only reason he offered Lily a chance to survive was because of Snape? So sacrificial love magic doesn't come into play as Alice isn't given an opportunity to live but Neville is still marked as Voldemort's equal so the prophecy is still in play. So does it come down to if the prophecy can override Neville never having received sacrificial love protection as his mother wasn't given a choice to live? Because if not, does that just mean Neville dies as a baby and Harry grows up and still defeats Voldemort anyway?
@@krishmajumder1411 I think you are right. Because only with Harry all lines of the prophecy comes to life. Because in the end, nothing else mattered, Lilly's sacrificial protection saved Harry, and the fact that elder wand would not kill his true Master ment, that the spell rebounced and killed Voldemort. Because, I think, Harry would never use a killing curse even on Voldemort. And Voldemort's killing curse would not affect Harry anyways because of the protection...🤔
I have always kind of wondered why the Potters didn’t ask Dumbledore to be their secret keeper. He being, allegedly, the only person Voldemort is afraid of seems to be the perfect candidate. Not picking him suggests that the Potters didn’t completely trust him. I wonder if growing up in Godric’s Hollow, James had heard some rumors about Albus’ youth, and that was the reason for their imperfect trust in him.
Would you trust Dumbel- for the greater good -dore in that situation? If he had known that sharing the secret could lead to creating the one who can defeat the dark lord, there is a high chance that with the situation getting worse every day he would give up the secret for the greater good. I think even Dumbledore would not trust himself.
Love this format. Another idea is doing a comment section video, where you pick comments from one of your videos and discus them, their probability, theories, other stuff. That would be a fun one for J and Ben to do together
To be honest I don’t think Voldemort was actually more powerful than Grindelwald. I believe Voldemort seems more powerful because of his Horcruxes and being obsessed with not dying. Whereas Gridelwald was more curious and tried to use every kind of dark magic he could. So I actually believe if you put Voldemort at his prime versus Grindelwald at his prime I actually believe Grindelwald would actually win quite easily
@@סראדס I don't think it's possible to put yourself as both a secret keeper and THE secret in a Fidelius charm. Otherwise Sirius would be the perfect secret keeper for Grimmauld place, not Dumbledore.
@@archaiahp the secret is the house. Dumbledore is obviously able to enter grimmauld place, what would have happend if he had decided to move in? Wouldn't he be able to?
I would like a fanfic where Sirius really is Voldemort's right hand man and blamed Ron's totally normal pet rat in an attempt to get Harry to trust him.
Imagine if Voldemort marked Neville as his equal cuz Neville turned bouncy like when he was tossed out a window and the spell somehow bounces off him and hits Voldemort… very unlikely but still fun to think about.
The resurrection stone does require a strong emotional connection to those your trying to summon so I doubt the older ghosts could work but I'm sure there's a grieving family for Myrtle out there to try, assuming non-magicals can use the stone
@@p_3ater160 Is it ever specifically stated that you require a strong emotional connection? I can't remember it being. It could be that you just need to think of any specific person and they come back, even though the way we see it used is only for people with emotional connections.
I saw a messed up what if that was kinda about that but Nick was inducted in the Headless Hunt, not resssurected. Essentially if Nick is not there, Justin doesn't see the basilisk through him. He doesn't just get petrified, he straight up dies. They shut down the school and because Ginny still has the diary Tom riddle comes back at the Burrow and essentially murders all of the Weasleys with Pettigrew's help. He then finds what remains of himself to get all the information he would need and starts a new takeover of the Wizarding world.
Ben for Kvothe!🗡🧙🏻♂️ J for Elodin!🧙🏻♂️🗡 The Harry Potter theories are my absolute favorite! I legitimately accept them as canon because you guys are THAT convincing.
According to "the author"? Come on guys. It should be reasonable to say her name. She did create the Wizarding World we love. Don't be afraid of backlash to the point of ridiculous censorship.
I had a headcanon at the end of book 5 that Neville might end up being the chosen one as a twist ending. I was taken with the line about Ron's injuries from the brains in the Department of Mysteries. (Remember how Ron fought the brains?) It was something like, "Those wounds will take a long time to heal. Thoughts leave the deepest scars." It seemed like a line that would be important later. And I know this doesn't hold with the "Voldemort will mark his equal" bit of the prophecy, but we had just learned in that book how invisibly scarred Neville was from his parents' trauma (even though that would have been Bellatrix's mark, not Voldy's). They were both "marked" in a way. I cheered when Neville became an integral part of defeating Voldy.
This is a really fun idea for a series. Definitely do more of them. I've always thought about what if Peter Pettigrew hadn't escaped in Prisoner of Azkaban. Harry could've lived with Sirius and never see the Dursleys again. Voldemort may not have returned
Well, the full Moon would still be in there, causing Lupin to become a Werewolf, and the Dementors would still to after Sirius, so with both protectors disabled, I think Wormtail would still regain concuousness, transform into a rat, and run for his Life... 🤔
@@lindamazule2289 I think before he would regain his consciousness Harry and Hermione would guard him so I think it's possible that they would just petrify him again. But still, all the commotion. Who knows ;)
@@lindamazule2289 Maybe conjure a cage and have him STAY a rat in it until say, McGonagall forces the return transformation in the Great Hall. Tabby Cat is very much capable of keeping an eye on a rat, I'd say. Not to mention Mrs. Norris, Crookshanks and other cats along with the owls -- you're not getting away. From Ministry custody later, though...
But that’s assuming that Sirius never told anyone. The people in his circle of trust like Lupin and Peter would have been told. Then when Sirius died, they would have become secret keepers and Peter would have “ratted” out the Potters and the whole scenario would play out as normal.
One would love to see more what if content. Two questions the first one: Is it possible for Sirius to have lived with Lilly and James and still been their Secret Keeper? And second, If eventually Voldemort would have hunted down Neville as the other likely candidate and Snape was already a spy for Dumbledore, wouldn't Dumbledore having received such information from Snape; being in good confidence with Voldemort had hidden them under the same charm and simply use Neville's grandmother as a Secret Keeper?
I dont think that Voldemort is forced to mark one of them. Dumbeldore said that not all phrophesys get fufilled, its just somethinf that might happen. So in this alternate timeline, voldemort might just never mark anyone
Had Voldemort gone for Neville, the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled either. Harry survived because Lily chose to die to save him, casting the protective charm. The only reason she had a choice is because Snape loved her and asked Voldemort to spare her life. If he had gone for Neville, Snape wouldn't have cared about Alice dying. She wouldn't have been given a choice to live, so she couldn't have cast a protective charm over Neville. Neville dies as a baby, Voldemort thinks he's defeated the prophecy and never goes after Harry, therefore never marking him as his equal. The prophecy is only true because Voldemort chose Harry.
Questions- Relistening to Ollivander tell Harry about how the phoenix that gave his feather, only gave 1 other, it got me thinking. Is there a special process the feather has to go through to be a wand core? Couldn’t they take any feather the bird molts to use as the core? "so we all know that it could either have been Harry or Neville, but Voldemort went after Harry. Did Neville ever find out that it could have been him, or was he blissfully unaware?" How do people go missing in Quidditch?
I think they are special ones given by the phoenix. (Willingly given IS a thing here; that's the only way you can get any). Like -- you can have several people hang onto the tail feathers of a phoenix for transport (so no, you can't just yank one off unlike unicorn tail hair and they will kick anyone daring to do that, of course -- and the molted feathers burn into ashes so the phoenix can be reborn (don't burn yourself there).
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 fair enough. I was thinking that animals molt or shed their hair/feathers, so if you walked through the forest and found a unicorn hair, would that work, but I guess not. I’d love to know the full process though. That would be cool to actually see. Maybe in one of the movies coming out in the future, we’ll actually see wands being made. I think that would be cool personally
@@AbstractlyMe83 Well how would Olllivander know which individual unicorn it came from if he just picked it from the forest? I think he said something about the stallion he collected the hair in Cedric's wand from kicking him... To Harry the day he bought his -- the phoenix gave one other feather.
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 oh I’m not saying Ollivander was just trash picking through the forest and found some Unicorn hair. I’m just more asking like, if someone came across a unicorn hair in the forest, COULD that be used to make a wand, or is there a special ceremony to collect the hair/feather/heartstrings
@@AbstractlyMe83 I figure the dragon he gets them from is dead or otherwise unaware he does it. A unicorn kicking you is one thing, a living dragon annoyed at you quite another. Mind, I figure Fleur's grandmother gave the hair freely. Possibly the rosewood was growing in the family back yard and possibly her wand was made by a family member if not Fleur herself.
I've always considers the prophecy to be a 50/50 situation for voldemort. "Neither can live whilst the other survives" If voldemort had marked Neville as his equil then I believe Neville would have died in the end and Voldemort would have won. Pick Neville, he wins. Pick Harry, he loses
I always wonder what would’ve happened if James or Lily was the secret keeper. Then if Voldemort went to find them he would have no idea where to find him and even if he went after Sirius or Wormtail it would’ve been impossible to find them anyway because they can’t say where they are
I can see this scenario going very differently. I think Sirus would've been the secret keeper, and Voldemort would've gone after him. But I think because of his bravery, intelligence, blood status and family (belaxtrix, Regulus [Voldy never knew Regulus was a spy], the Malfoy's etc.), I think Voldemort would've offered to spare Sirius's life if he were to join the dark side. Sirius would've obviously refused, which would've led to Voldmeort killing him, but I think this could have cast the same love protection over Harry, Lily, and James, which is usually just over Harry. This way, Harry could've grown up with his parents, out in the open the way he usually is, as long as he calls Godricks Hollow his home. In this scenario, there's a few ways in which it can go: 1. They trust the love protection spell that was put on them by Sirius and head out into the open, which leaves Harry easily accessible to an attack by Voldemort, which allows the prophecy to come true as Voldemort marks him as his equal, but because of Sirius's sacrifice it backfires and Voldemort still falls the same as the normal story, only Harry gets to keep his family. 2. Dumbledore isn't sure if the love protection sacrifice will work, so the Potters still live locked up in their home with no one for company, completely hidden under the fidelius charm 3. The news of Sirius's death spreads before Voldmeort can find the Potters, so the Longbottoms get some better security, which means that a) Voldmort can't find them and mark Neville as his equal, and b) Belatrix can't find them or torture them after Voldemort falls, which allows Neville to grow up in a loving home as well. 4. With James and Lily alive, Remus would've had his support system around him, and wouldn't have faced homelessness like he does in the normal story. I think Sirius would've been the secret keeper, but after he died, Lily and James would've known their own adress and would've automatically become secret keepers, and could've safely told Peter and Remus, with no fear of them going to Voldemort (they still didn't know who the spy was) because neither one of them could share the secret as neither of them was secret keeper. 5. I also feel like somwhere in here is a storyline about James finding out about Sirius dying and going after Voldemort himself. Because of Sirius's love protection, James is protected from Voldemort. I can't quite get the the end of this thread though, someone feel free to keep pulling on it. I feel like 1 is the most probable because it still holds the prophecy in its centre, but I feel like if Sirius was the secret keeper, everyone is happier and safer. Honestly even Sirius, knowing he's dying to protect Lily and James, rather than his usual story of 12 years in Askaban, 1 year on the run eating rats, and one year in his childhood trauma house, before dying in battle anyway.
I have a dozen what ifs: 1.) What if Snape hadn't called Lily Evans "Mudblood" and had ended up marrying her instead of James, thus becoming Harry's father? (This is a wildcard, as it would be him dueling Voldemort instead of James, plus, in this scenario, he almost certainly NEVER became a Death Eater, meaning that Voldemort may not have gotten the bit of the Prophecy that Snape overheard, unless he'd have Peter or someone do that job instead.) 2.) What if Arianna Dumbledore's had never been tortured, meaning Albus Dumbledore had a more normal childhood and never partnered with Grindelwald? 3.) What if Grindelwald had killed Dumbledore in the famous duel? (Would he stop Voldermort's rise to power, not being in his own jail? Would Voldermort come and kill him? (I can see him offering Voldermort an alliance, as they had similar goals, but while Grindelwald clearly didn't mind having a partner in crime, Voldermort clearly likes working alone and so I think he'd turn him down. Also, with Dumbledore dead, would Hogwarts fall to one or the other of the Dark Lords? Would Grindelwald have a change of heart some point later, perhaps to Voldermort becoming more powerful than him and also perhaps seeing the error of his ways, and perhaps be a mentor to Harry instead of Dumbledore?) 4.) What if Hagrid had given Harry to Sirius after the death of Lily and James? Would Sirius still have gone after Pettigrew with his best friend's son in tow or would he have tried a different tactic (like going to Dumbledore to tell of Peter's treachery rather than being hot-headed and seeking Peter himself, risking Harry being killed in a possible duel between him and Peter))? 5.) What if Petunia Dursley had a change of heart of her stance on anti-magic and all after her sister's murder and had given Harry the letter and been kinder to him? How would Harry's story have been different if he wasn't abused by the Dursley's? Would Petunia and Vernon have divorced or would he too have mellowed out toward Harry and the magical world? 6.) What if Peter had been caught (perhaps Snape hadn't been knocked out and his extra presence was enough to capture Peter) and Peter was either Kissed or sent to Azkaban (thus foiling Trawlaney's prophecy (BTW, I think in Book 5 Dumbledore states that loads of Prophecies in the Hall of Prophecy ended up NEVER happening, so it's possible that Trawlaney's doesn't either, or that some other servant, perhaps Barty Crouch Jr, who if you recall was still alive, somehow got free of his father's imperius curse sooner (he was getting closer to it at that point anyway, if you recall from Book 4) and simply found Voldermort and took the role of Pettigrew. After all, in a way, he too was "chained" for twelve years, first literally in Azkaban and later to his father under the Imperius Curse. Ths, the prophecy could still have been fulfilled that night anyway even with Peter's capture.) Would Harry living with his godfather instead of the Dursley's have changed anything? Would Sirius have not died in this case, perhaps not having to be so cooped up as he would be a free man here, hopefully (though it's possible Fudge would have tried to get rid of Sirius ANYWAY to save face rather than go explain to the press that they spent all of those resources chasing the WRONG man.) 7.) What if Harry and Hermoine had been caught in book 3, granted AFTER rescuing Sirius, but clearly where they'd be implicated for his escape? Granted, I can see Dumbledore taking the fall here like he did in book 5 in the Centaur and the Sneak, especially as here, unlike in book 5, he actually DID conspire with Harry to do it, but that still creates a new situation, possibly with someone like Umbridge being appointed by the Ministry to replace Dumbledore as the new headmaster in book 4. Also, evne if not expelled, Harry's every move would be watched by the Ministry, meaning he could NEVER make contact, even in the fireplace or whatever, with Sirius. 8.) What if Horcrux Tom Riddle had succeeded in killing Harry and taking the life force from Ginny? Would this have returned the 60+ year old Voldemort, perhaps as his 16 year old self, or would there now be TWO Voldemorts, one a 16 year old and the other still in his sixties but wihtout his body and most of his powers gone? 9.) What if Hagrid had NEVER been expelled? Suppose that Tom Riddle was never able to catch him with Aragog and ended up having to frame someone else or something for Myrtles death, meaning that Hagrid graduated at the end of his seventh year and didn't have such a sucky childhood (i.e. losing his father, losing his giantess mother when he was little, being expelled, etc) and instead was able to use magic and also never went to Azkaban in Book 2, having never been framed by Riddle? 10.) What if Mad Eye Moody have never been killed in the Battle of the Seven Potters? How do you think his survival in the last book and possible addition to the Battle of Hogwarts would have changed things? 11.) What if Fudge had not used the Dementor on Barty Crouch Jr. but had instead done the right thing and used his testimony of Voldemort's return and told people the truth? Would the lack of an extra year of preparation have stopped Voldemort's takeover of the Ministry in Deathly Hallows or would it still have happened anyway? 12.) What if Kreature had been able to save REgulas Black (I think he could have apparated Regulus out of that cave as well)? Would his surivla have perhaps changed Mrs. Black's view on Sirius and Voldmoert after him revealing who Voldemort REALLY was to her? Would anyway else have learned about the Horcruxes, possibly even enusirng that enough were destroyed that Voldermort's defeat in Godrick's Hallow was his actual death?
I love this type of video, I would love to see more! You should look up Harry Potter folklore. A TH-cam channel that does a lot of Siri videos like this. Collaboration! Neville could not have survived in this scenario because Voldemort would never have given Nevils mother the chance to live. It has been stated by J. K. Rowling that in order for The sacrificial magic to work, the sacrificer must be given an option to live. You have stated this yourself in other videos so you know this. Voldemort only gave Harry’s mother an option to live because Snape asked him to. Snape would not have cared about Neville‘s parents and not have asked Voldemort to spare either of them. Therefore neville would have died if there had not been some other circumstance that would have spared him. Which, there very well could have been. But What, I cannot say. Also, if Harry and his parents were safe in their house, does that mean harry never would have gone to Hogwarts? Does it mean that none of them would ever be able to leave their house for the entirety of the Wizarding war? And we thought lockdown was bad.😵💫 Also also! Actually actually! Even if Harry and Ginny had been raised as siblings and not developed romantic feelings for each other, Harry and Hermione would never have gotten together because “there is literally no romantic chemistry between them ever“!!!
I think you're forgetting about the fact that not all prophecies are fulfilled even Dumbledore says that they're not. However I think that if you take in account of Voldemort going after Neville instead of Harry he would have killed Neville kill Neville's parents and then he would perceive himself as invincible. Thus he might actually end up slipping and letting his guard down. Now that you have Snape working as a double agent to protect Lily eventually Snape may have learned about the horcruxes the same way that Sirius's brother Regulus did, thus Dumbledore would have found out and with Voldemort letting his guard down more often in his arrogance of thinking he's absolutely 100% protected he could still end up dead yeah it might not be right away it might be a couple of years. Harry could also grow up face the dark lord in battle and beat him then. My question is what would have happened had regulus used his head more and survived the cave. My theory is he would have discovered the rest of the horcruxes and he would have systematically taken care of them as much as he could and once the dark lord fell unsuspectingly he would not have his horcruxes to save him and there would have been no second Wizard War.
@@theactualbacon3532 true. however he was a smart ambitious young man. He also was growing to not trust Voldemort. After finding out about the one and if he had gotten away he would have been determined to take Voldemort down. If he was willing to sacrifice himself I believe he would have continued to fight Voldemort from with in his ranks. Furthermore he may have found out from his cousin Bellatrix that a possession was left with her and he would have gotten even more suspicious
The thing about this prophecy in particular is that Voldemort 100% believes it. If he ignored it, then nothing would've happened. But it's his insistence to fulfill the "either must die at the hands of the other" bit that allows Harry to escape time and time and time again, since none of the other Death Eaters are brave enough to take the shot for themselves
This leaves room open for a movie where Snape slowly gets rid of the people he doesn't like by telling Voldemort that they're connected to the Potters in some way
Just 1 thing that caught my attention. The spell doesn’t protect the Potters, just the information of their location. So it’s still possible to hunt them down by 3rd parties, scouts, guesses, etc.
A better question is what would have happened if James himself was the secret keeper. I mean, we literally see Bill do that in Deathly Hallows, so we know its possible, and so would anyone skilled enough to cast the Fidelius charm.
I have a little theory to why it was so important to switch other than it being to obvious. Sirius is from the Black family and most of his family members are either deatheaters or deateather supporters. So they would know how to hurt him. They would know who they could use as leverage against him, that being his brother. Regulus was a deatheater at the time, and even though they wouldn't be able to harm Sirius if he was the secret keeper his little brother would be free game. My theory is that Peter convinced Sirius that if he was the secret keeper Regulus would be used as leverage.
Regulus died in 1979, the Potters were killed in 1981. Also, I'm pretty sure it was a well known fact that Sirius didn't care about his brother. He hated his entire family, left at the age of 16 and didn't look back until the Order needed somewhere for headquarters.
@@luciemanson2546 I'm fully aware that Sirius hates his family but the way he talks about his brother makes him seam like an exception. He saids to Harry that Regulus was soft enough to believe them and calls him an idiot. In contrast he calls bellatrix deranged and uses a lot of sarcasm to talk about his other family members. His brother was a deatheater and he calls him an idiot not malicious. In the movie they even take it a bit further where Regulus was used as an argument to strengthen the case: "the world isn't split into good people we all have good and darkness inside of us". It reads to me that Sirius despises Regulus for being the "better son" as well as choosing their family over him. Because "soft enough to believe them" reads to me like he was given another alternative that he didn't take, that alternative being to be with Sirius. Sirius resents him for choosing their family over him, that wouldn't have hurted at all if he flatt out didn't care about Regulus at all. As for the time stamp, the potters where in hiding for a while too. Lilly sends Sirius a letter during the sommer of that year where she tells him about how their life had been the following year. The letter also contains some pictures of Harry on his toy broomstick on his 1. Birthday. And the aslo tells him that Peter has been acting really upset but thinks it's just because he is greving the McKinnons. The letter hints to the fact that Peter has betrayed them. So even though they died in 1981, Peter was made secret keeper much earlier than that, possibly as early as Harrys birth. As for Regulus death in 1979. No one except for kreecher knew how he died. He drowned in a cave, no one found his body. Remus and Sirius comes up with a theory for what happened to him in Order of the Phenix but nigther of them know what actually happened.
The perspective of Harry and Ron growing up together and running into Neville at the platform making the three of them best friends for life *^* I really love that
If Neville’s parents were killed wouldn’t the “power of love” not protect Neville? Because Voldemort never would have given Neville’s parents the chance to live. Harry only had the power of sacrificial love only worked since Snape wouldn’t have convinced him to give her the chance to live. In that scenario wouldn’t Voldemort win?
@@MMD_16-95 well, I think this video was assuming the same events happened in the original series, with the caveat that Peter wasn’t the secret keeper. And even if Snape doesn’t hate Neville’s parents, he definitely doesn’t love them to the same extent he does Lily, I don’t think that he would have directly asked Voldemort to spare them.
@@vanitaprakash1547 He will, he probably felt guilty after what he saw Voldemort true color but he didn't have any place to return! In the 7th book Dumbledore asked Snape how many people you watched death! He said " recently only those who i couldn't save " . Not for Lily or even Dumbledore
The only reason Harry was saved was because Lily had the choice to move but didn't. Snape had asked Voldemort to spare her so instead of killing Lily instantly, he told her to move. Snape wouldn't have asked Voldemort to spare Neville's parents so the whole family would have been killed. Basically everything that already happened would still happen but Harry would just be attacked by Voldemort much later in his life.
I don't think Dumbledore would give Harry to the Weaslies. He barly knew them. There were many people in the order who would gladly take Harry in and that Dumbledore trusted more.
Andromeda Tonks would have definitely taken in Harry! They're distantly related through Dorea Black and assuming the wizarding world has similar laws about family adoptions as the muggle world then its her or Narcissa Malfoy, who would have trouble with the adoption process around that time due to her husband fending off the ministry about him being a death eater
I had a really interesting thought while watching. What if you hid the identity of the secret keeper inside a second secret keeper? So Voldy is looking for the Potter's secret Keeper (Sirius), but the only person who could actualy tell him who to actually look for is Remus?
Lily wrote to syrius "If you could visit, it would cheer him [James] up so much" but it sound a lot like they gave secret to more than just secret keeper. So the think that would happen would be killing syrius and then going after potters with wormtail as secret keeper or potters changing hideout with wormtail as secret keeper or finaly giving the job to dumbi in next hideout.
Why would James & Lily be tortured into insanity again? Bellatrix believed that Frank & Alice Longbottom would know what happened to Voldemort because they were two of the Ministry's top Aurors. James & Lily weren't Aurors.
Bellatrix was convinced that the Longbottoms had information on Voldemort's whereabouts because they were included in the prophecy. It's not hard to see why Bellatrix would have tortured the James and Lily too.
6:50 wrooong. Snape hates serius and james but not lupin. Lupin was the calmest of them and when the order picks up harry and are chased by the deatheaters snape actually tries to save lupin. A deatheater wants to cast a curse and snaoe tries to use sempra to make him miss and then by accident hits fred or georg. So while yes he wouldn't mind serius nor james to die. I don't think he hated lupin
@@paulyb7267 he saved his life. This is just never mentioned in the films. It is very clear in the books tho that when the fake harrys fly on their brooms he wants to cast a spell on a deatheater that want's to go for lupin. The spell misses the target and hits fred or george but ultimately confuses the deatheater and saves lupins life. He literally could have been find out for doing that just to save lupins life. I don't think he hated him
Okay, randomly started watching all the Harry Potter theories recently despite originally not being the biggest fan of the franchise. When the title of the video was said, I started quoting Sirius' "I would have died before betraying my friend," only to hear that actual quote. Long overdue subscription earned :)
1. The Potters' location wasn't the secret, the Potters themselves were the entities that were hidden. This was implied in the books too, where it was said that Voldemort could have looked through their window and still not find them. That's why neither James nor Lily could have made themselves the secret keeper. Also, placing anyone else besides the least obvious (in this case Peter Pettigrew) would have made that secret keeper a huge target. This means that there was a high chance that Sirius would have been killed. Even if the Potters chose Dumbledore as their secret keeper, Dumbledore was already an obvious choice and was a high target leading the resistance against Voldemort. As invincible as we know Dumbledore to be, we only know this in hindsight and so during the first Wizarding war it could be assumed that there was a good possibility that Dumbledore could have died. 2. The first point brings me to this second point, which is that I believe once a secret keeper dies (without revealing the secret), the charm dies and becomes null and void. Things go back to the way they were in the first place before the charm was done. This has to be the only logical explanation. The secret is encased in the keeper's soul so when the keeper dies and the soul is released, the secret shouldn't be bounded to the keeper anymore. That's probably why you wouldn't want your secret keeper being put at risk of dying in the first place, hence the Potters' logical choice of going with someone who isn't an obvious choice. Imagine instead if the charm is cemented permanently upon the secret keeper's death, then a tactical move might be to make a very old or sick person the secret keeper so they don't have much longer to live. Or if you're a villain you can keep a secret forever by making them a secret keeper and then killing them immediately after.
How big of a location can the secret keeper keep secret? The Potters were confined to their house becasue I guess their specific address was the secret, but what if they were just hiding in France or something and that was as specific as the secret was? Would they be protected within the entire country of France? Additionally, what if France gained or lost land and the border moved? Would that affect the boundaries of the secret?
@@snocaps231 no, he was fully committed to the death eaters before they went against his interests in fact with James and Lilly alive he'd be even more loyal to Voldemort
It was Voldemort's decision to hunt down the Potters that made Snape switch sides. He then went to Dumbledore and begged for him to protect Lily....................................................................and James and Harry
1 - the Potters i assume would know where they lived so would become their own secret keepers when Sirius and Remus died ? 2 - Would Hogwarts end up much emptier if he and Neville weren't immediately findable as Voldemort became more paranoid and went after anyone born that year, or tried different calendars to find different seventh months (e.g. September is 7th month in the Julian calendar, or looking for the waning of the 7th moon of the year/7th moon after he discovers the prophecy ) He might even worry that some DE's were spying on him and go after their children (possibly resulting in them actually turning on him), could go after child of anyone who protested against him ever, anyone who isn't PureBlood on logic that the parents had defied him by marrying and producing an "impure" child - could result in a lot of dead children. 3 - If no-one knew the secret to where the Potters where as either they were now the keeper or the secret was fully sealed, would it have taken longer before they knew Voldemort had fallen and therefor they didn't come out of hiding and so didn't get cursed to insanity by Bellatrix..
I love this format! I would love to see more What if videos :) I also think you should do Voldemort's Big Plan book by book the way you did for Dumbledore.
As for where Harry goes - I suggest one of the Black sisters, either Andromeda or Narcissa. It’s been a while so I can’t recall how closely Harry himself would’ve been with them, but as Sirius was his godfather, Sirius’ blood family would have some sense.
12:30 Actually, that depends. If it was Neville's Dad who died to save him, then yes, his grandmother would have taken him. But, if is was his mother, then it would have to be someone on his Alice's side of the family. Because Dumbledore would have used the sacrifice of whichever one it was to protect Neville like he did with Harry by sending him to Petunia.
12:00 I think this is a bad take. My impression is always that Voldemort "mark[ed] him as his equal" by choosing to target him, that is, from the moment he decided that it was Harry who was the greater threat, he locked in Harry as the one who could defeat him. Presumably this happened the instant that Snape told him of the prophecy and he realised that it could apply to either of them.
I loved this line of thanking, but the only thing I would also consider is in the 7th book, in Lily's letter she asks Sirius to come and visit soon to cheer James up. This means Peter told the secret to at least Sirius while being the secret keeper. This may also mean Sirius would trust people like Peter and Lupin with the location as well. Therefore when they kill Sirius, Peter and Lupin will be the two secret keepers and Peter will be free to tell Voldemort. May just happen a little later on.
Honestly, this would have happened with Lupin too. He loved his friends because they were family and would have given his life for them if it meant their safety
There’s a fanfic series I read a couple of years ago (the series was never completed) in which Harry had an older brother named Milo. Harry was still raised by the Dursleys (since he was the only one marked as the chosen one) while Milo was taken in by McGonagall (and in the fics she’s a very loving mother to Milo). So because if this fanfic series, I like to believe that if the Dursleys weren’t able to take Harry in, then Minnie most certainly would have
In this scenario, just how long could the Potters live in isolation? I can honestly see a situation where James has had enough of hiding out and ends up spilling the secret himself down at the local pub.
Something I noticed while going over all the magical family trees. Harry is blood related to the Weasleys.. that whole "he has to be raised in the home of his family to keep his mother's protection" thing, would of still applied if he lived with the Weasleys..
The Cursed Child already has some new "what if" timelines showing us how tampering with time affected the outcomes of multiple events. I'd love to watch a SCB video on those timelines!
I guess I always assumed that the Longbottoms were also in hiding until Voldemort disappeared. It’s been so long since I read the books that I’m not sure that’s spelled out.
I loved this what if. If you have more ideas around this please do this. The one thing that I saw I. This theory is that after Dumbledore’s death Arthur Weasley say that all the people Dumbledore told the secret to become secret keeper. It’s why the order think it’s no longer safe to use Grim Old Place as headquarters. So if Sirius if secret keeper, he needs to go into hiding. If Dumbledore was though, Voldemort is still too afraid to attack Dumbledore, so the secret is safe.
i think peter might've convinced sirius to give him a note telling him where the potters are, then peter could've given voldemort the note and the story procceeds as normal
Under what circumstances would that happen? Snape hating James was a pretty big thing, and Snape never being able to let a single thing go ever, ever, ever is also a pretty major part of his character. So Snape would always hate Harry for looking like James
What if.....
That should be a Harry Potter show
What of aria Dumbledore never died
a pragerU ad never ran on youtube
Peter Petigrue (or however you spell it) never gave up the Potter’s location.
Or what if snape never heard the prophecy
We should thank the Supercarlin brothers for giving us Harry Potter WHAT IF
Our Pleasure!
Yes! More WHAT IF
@SuperCarlinBrothers Disney isn't giving us What If...? Season 2 quick enough so the Carlin brothers are taking their job
meanwhile I just finished watching one of The Sega Scourge's Sonic What If's xD
@@SuperCarlinBrothers One of you needs to shave their head and start wearing a white and blue toga.
I've always wandered why James wasn't the secret keeper(like bill in deathly hallows) this would mean Voldemort would have to find James to get in but to find James he would have to get in it creates a paradox
Ron and Luna 😊
There's the theory that it wasn't the house, but rather James and Lily themselves who were locked under the spell. Bill was the secret keeper of his house (like it happened with Grimmauld Place), but what Wormtail was keeping was the Potters (like, their souls or bodies). That would explain why after Voldemort's fall, Hagrid could find Harry.
@@maicoljaviercabreravasquez1554 make Harry secret keeper. He couldn't even talk at the time
@@youdontknowme2362000iq play
@@youdontknowme236There is a theory that the Secret Keeper has to be CAPABLE of revealing the secret if they choose, hence why wizards don't use creatures that can't speak a human language, or house elves, who could simply be forbidden by their masters to reveal the secret
The scariest implication of what you said regarding secret keepers is that ole Voldy could have hidden a horcrux, forced someone to become a secret keeper for it, and then immediately murdered them, leaving it unfindable. The perfect defense.
He could be the secret keeper himself.
@@Julian-pw5mv but then the one who he marks as his equal could find it as horcuxes would be considered secrete keepers to when he could just kill one of his follows and have it forever lost and be immortal
@@asuraofwrath yeah but he didn't know that would happen
@@Julian-pw5mv yea but its still a risk he would have to take versus guaranteed immortality for example someone could put him under the imperious curse or something
Not quite. The magic of the Fidelius charm resides in the Secret Keeper. If there are no living Secret Keepers, the charm breaks.
My favorite "What if?" revolves around Snape's father not being abusive to him and his mother. Everything changes. His relationships, his career, his prejudices, and even the parts of his personality he chooses to surface and which to suppress all play huge roles in the story of Harry Potter. In my mind, removing that trauma and replacing it with a loving, supportive home creates a fascinating domino effect.
What if harry had a twin sister that looked exactly like Lily? Would Snape do something unfunny as a Hogwarts teacher???
@@orangecitrus8056 What a disgusting thought. He loved lily for her kindness, not her appearence. And lilys daughter would be a child anyway
absolutely! his father is a huge reason he is the way he is, and so many people ignore that because "snape bad, marauders good"
I think it’s weird how Sirius says “pick someone less obvious” and then they just switch to another close friend.
Like.
It’s still obvious. If anything they should have picked Petunia or something. She did a great job of never mentioning anything magic to anyone.
Or Snape. They definitely wouldn’t pick him, but he would have kept that secret at all costs if it meant Lily’s safety.
Honestly, they should have just had James (or Lily) be the secret keeper. We know that you can do that, since Bill is the secret keeper for shell cottage in Deathly Hallows.
or lupin
@@Colaman112 isn’t that Fluer’s shell cottage?
@@bradleygendall583 lupin was on a mission at the time.
@@bradleygendall583 well, and lupin was also just their other best friend kinda negating the whole point of op
One problem with Neville being the chosen one: Lily’s sacrifice only work because she didn’t have to die she chose to, and Voldemort had no reason to spare either of Neville‘s parents therefore they wouldn’t be able to choose to die. So how then would the sacrifice be enough to protect Neville?
Parallel unwritten story: an unknown death eater was in love with one of Neville’s parents and requested that Voldie spare him/her.
The point is more that fate will get in the way and something will stop Voldemort from actually killing Neville, as Voldemort is destined to mark one child, and then for them to battle it out later. It is just that Harry was able to do this, and end up winning, thanks to Lily's sacrifice.
I know many like to say that Neville could also been chosen by prophecy, but the simple fact is that he wasn't. The most important part of it was that Voldemort would mark Harry as his equal - Voldemort choosing Harry was pre-written in the prophecy itself. There was never a choice or different possibility. Ignoring that part is like changing the month of Chosen One's birth to something other than July (that would mean Harry wouldn't qualify).
@@NaoyaYami The prophecy doesn't state WHO the chosen one is, only the circumstances around them, which actually do fit Harry AND Neville. The requirement is that Voldemort then choose one and mark them as his equal, an act that he WILL do, according to the prophecy, but again, the matter of who isn't stated. The only things mentioned in regard to who he would choose are the circumstances under which they would be born, and no clear name was given. Effectively, if Voldemort had no other option than to hunt down the Longbottoms, then Neville would, in fact become the chosen one, due to the nature of the prophecy.
TL;DR: The prophecy was slightly open-ended, allowing for the chosen one to be either of the choices available to Voldemort, and if Voldemort's hand was forced, Neville would have become the chosen one.
@@christianrose9166 No, Voldemort marked Harry as his equal because he heard (part) of prophecy. This is what's called self-fullfilling prophecy, meaning it only comes to pass because relevant people become aware of it (kinda like the story about Oedip).
Voldemort didn't choose, because he didn't know there were 2 children that fit the description. Potters were also only hiding because they knew Voldemort would come after Harry. It all only happened because Snape heard Trelawney that one time.
There is one difference between Harry and Neville though: Snape was in love with Lilly and thus Voldemort gave her the chance to 'step aside' Nevilles mum wouldn't have that chance and probably die fighting, so Neville wouldn't survive
Good point
Good point, and since Neville’s mum was also an Auror he might have considered her too dangerous to leave alive even if someone had pleaded for her life.
Ok so interesting possibility and hear me out. Sirius writes to Lily while the Potters are in hiding, ergo he's in on the secret (not sure how owl post works here. Do you need to be in on the secret to send an owl? Let's just assume you do.) In this case, obviously James and Lily have allowed Peter to tell Sirius where they are. If Sirius was the secret keeper, they probably would have instructed the other way around, had Sirius tell Peter. Therefore what I think would happen is Peter is like "Hey Voledemort. I know where the Potters are. I'm not the secret keeper so I can't tell you. But I can tell you who the secret keeper is. It would be a shame if he were to die." Voldemort kills Sirius, Peter becomes a secret keeper, and now the only immediate change is that Hagrid has to find a different way to get Harry to the Dursleys. Oh and I guess book 3 is very different.
I was just about to day this. I was under the impression that aside from James, Lily and Peter, there were 4 people "in" on the secret: Sirius, Remus, Dumbledore and Bathilda Bagshot.
@@magic8ball1982 yeah there were definitely other people in on it
You don't need to be in on the secret to send an owl. Harry sends plenty of owls to Ron, Hermione and Sirius at the start of the fifth book, before he's told the location of Headquarters.
@@luciemanson2546 good point. I didn't think of that
@@luciemanson2546 Bathilda Bagshot, however, had actually visited them. I can't imagine James and Lily letting her in on the secret without letting Sirius, Lupin and Dumbledore in.
A very crritical thing you missed here: If Voldemort dies after marking Neville, the Potters are still in hiding, so Bellatrix would have just as little chance of find them as Voldemort did. Which means, whether Sirius dies or not, so long as Voldemort attacks the Longbottoms while waiting for the Potters to come out of hiding, Harry will most likely grow up with his parents. Belatrix will likely still find someone to torture (could be Wormtail if he doesn't escape again) and end up in Azkaban. After a few years of rounding up death eaters, the department might declare the war over (or whatever they did in the original timeline), and Harry will probably grow up hearing the stories of Neville Longbottom, the boy who lived.
Ofcourse if we want to increase the sadness, in this timeline, where the Longbottoms are dead, the Potters can't be found to be tortured, another unfortunate target for Bellatrix to torture could be the Weasleys. Arthur works at the ministry and that would be reason enough for Bellatrix, so we might instead see a timeline where Bill and Charlie have to raise their four younger brothers and (unless we want to be more depressed) one infant sister with two parents in St. Mungo's. What would THAT look like. Precy's ambitions fuel by the loss of his parents, Fred and Geroge's mischief an outlet for not having their parents around, Ron being bossed around by his brothers from birth in an even greater extent and Ginny never knowing a mothers love. I at least like to imagine that even though Bill might still get to work in Gringotts (though at a local desk job instead of traveling) and Charlie would probably have to forego his dragon research, when Ron meets the rich Harry Potter and the famous Neville Longbottom, the Weasley's lifes get slightly better as they start spending more of their hollidays in Godric's Hollow instead. I imagine that, in their first summer, Ron runs away from the Burrow after finally having another place to go, their second summer, Charlie wins the lottery and gets them the holliday they deserve, then, after their 3rd year the Potters pays for all to go to the Quidditch World Cup and then as Voldemort makes his return, with Neville against all odds winning the tri wizard tournament, the Potters become as protective of the Weasly's as Molly became of Harry.
Sounds good. Will totally read this as a fanfiction.
If it is like that then I think that we would have ron Harry and Neville as the team instead of Harry ron and hermione , maybe hermione might join and then there might be a four , do you think Neville would still be bad at magic now that he is the boy who lived ?
Good plot for fan fiction
@@getBhavinShah maybe Neville not being as naturally good at magic ends up real problem for Dumbledore. During the first and second year (both the plots still in play) Dumbledore becomes increasingly worried and frustrated that "his" chosen one can't even work the simplest magic and therefore makes the teachers push him even harder. Neville ofcourse doesn't respond well to being pressured and in the thirds year he actually gets ready to quit Hogwarts outright! Harry, Ron and Hermione are able to talk him out of it, but he doesn't really improve much until his names comes out of the Goblet of Fire. Now, again with the help of the best witch and wizard in his year training him, without the teachers pressure looming over him all the time, he actually makes progress enough to survive the tournament and the graveyard. And when Umbridge tries shutting down Hogwarts and the gang forms Dumbledore's Army, Neville immediately points to Harry and Hermione as the best teachers he ever had, leading to them teaching the DA.
@@TP_Rockstar although with Neville being the Boy Who Lived, Draco Malfoy and Harry Potter would never meet on the train(Draco would have no reason to go find harry).
I think in the scenario stated it would of played out as follows
1) Sirius lets wormtail and other trusted friends know to be able to visit the potters (believing that as long as no-one told a powerful enemy all would be safe. Remember they all still trusted Peter at this point.
2) Wormtail leads Sirius into an ambush where Voldemort and associates kill him. This causing the Fidelius charm to be weakened as now all who Sirius told become secret keepers.
3) Wormtail is now free to tell old moldy warts the location of the Potter residence.
4) Story progresses as per usual with the exception of Sirius being dead and no-one knowing Pettigrew was the mole so he is walking around free. (unless a legilimens caught him out in the lie)
I sincerely doubt that the Potters would stay at their current home in Godric’s Hollow if their Secret Keeper was killed by Voldemort. They probably would’ve moved once again, and, to keep Harry safe and their friends safe, they’d make someone inconspicuous the Secret Keeper. Like Dumbledore himself.
Voldemort loses that battle. He can’t touch Dumbledore, and Wormtail can’t get any info out of him. Which either leads to Wormtail being outed or Voldemort going after the Longbottoms instead.
@@Doomzdeh but how would they know? That would be a plan they perform from start to finish in as little time as possible.
I really like this new format. There are so many things that could have gone differently.
If Peter was in Slythin and never became friends with James.
If the Dursleys were nice people or a supportive family to Harry.
If Remus knew about the switch and that Peter was the secret keeper
I think this will be a fun avenue to go down and look for to future Harry Potter What Ifs
Remus would do everything he can to make sure that Harry knows the truth. If Peter was in Slytherin then he would join Death Eater crowd. Dursleys as a supportive family and nice people? Hard to imagine as even before Harry comes they hate him as he is a wizard. And Dursleys don't like anything different from the everyday events.
Actually we know Pettigrew was in the Potter's house on at least one acassion because of Lily's letter, which means he is under the fidelius charm, so if Snape or Voldemort had killed Sirius and Lupin, then Pettigrew would have been a secret keeper and have told Voldemort, probably making everything go the same minus the plot for the Prisoner of Azkaban and Dumbledore said that not all profecy's come true, which could mean that Voldemort doesn't have to mark them as his equal if he never finds them. Anddd if Voldemort hunts down Neville, Snape wouldn't ask Voldemort to spare his mother, would he? So because Alice Longbottom would of never had the choice to get out of the way, Neville and his family (probably) would have all died, having no one as the chosen one.
Him being there could've been a direct result of him being secret keeper, there's no guarantee he'd have been allowed to visit if they had made Sirius the secret keeper.
@@thebuddercweeper oh yeah that's true, especially since they thought that someone was the spy, I was going off of Grimald Place. But I would hope that they would of still gotten some visitors, the letter already said that James was restless. Hopefully some visitors would of cheered him up. Did it say that Bathilda Bagshot visited?
@@misskat2817 they thought the spy was lupin, no one thought Peter had the guts to be a spy
@@cayle1972 this is sad. Because even his best friend for years didn't trust him. Just because he's a werewolf.
@@peradabanbaruindonesia1546 I believe it was more than just being werewolf. They didn't see each other very often, Remus went on strange secret missions, they were still quite young and anxious about the war around - so very prone to rash judgment. Maybe they thought werewolves convinced him to their way of life? Maybe Voldemort found out something only Remus knew (but in reality Snape or Pettigrew heard it in secret)? We really don't know, and since it wasn't even mentioned on Pottermore, I guess we won't know, unless HBO really will make new show - tbh, even remake in form of series might be opportunity to explain it.
I always thought Sirius knew exactly how the Fidelius charm worked. They were suspicious of a spy in the order by that point, but didn't know who it was. If the secret keeper is killed, everyone he has told, possibly including the spy, would then become the secret keeper. That's what Sirius was worried about. He didn't fear that he would ever give up the secret. He wasn't afraid of being killed or tortured for himself. He knew that that was a possibility regardless. He worried that, upon his death, the secret would be out.
Or, since one incident involving full moon, Lupin and James saving Snape after Sirius spilled how to pass the Willow to Snape he might not entirely trust himself to keep secrets. Torture? fine. Threats? fine. Something Snape did to get him to spill? NOT fine. If Snape didn't do something to poke the info out of him, why would he ever trust it? He's still able to push Sirius' buttons as he pleases! So...
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 I thought he spilled that secret in purpose because he knew Snape was always trying to follow them and wanted to scare him.
@@madethistocomment727 Or, in other words, Snape annoyed him so much he spilled. He's very good at annoying Sirius, isn't he? That was a very important secret though -- something that seriously damaged the relationship of Sirius and Remus along with Sirius' confidence in his ability to keeping secrets!
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 that would not be "in other words" because it's a different scenario entirely. One where he deliberately told with a purpose in mind, and one where he spilled as an outburst from being annoyed. It's also possible, but I'm more inclined to believe what my initial comment said. If Sirius spilled the secret UNINTENTIONALLY because he was "so annoyed," that would have been by a type of coercion. The way the fidelius charm works is that the person cannot be tortured or coersed. He/or she has to want to give up the info. No matter how annoyed he may be, Sirius would never want to do that. There was no Fidelius charm around Lupin's secret so he could be annoyed into it, but I don't think that is a possibility in this case.
Came here to say pretty much this!
While Neville becoming the chosen one is the most likely scenario there is one other thing to consider, the longer the war goes on the more likely it becomes that a new child meets the criteria for the chosen one (parents who defy voldy 3 times, born late July/early august, has someone who loves them). fanfic writers you too can be the chosen ones
Ok but in the letter Harry found at Grimauld Place, Lily says that James was already having a hard time being cooped up in one place. I don’t think he’d be able to just sit there knowing that Sirius and Remus were being hunted down by the death eaters.
Makes little sense that James would not hide his best friends away as well at a later time. Think about it as a three layored charm. First Potters taken to safety. Then Sirus becomes secret keep. A few days later Sirus vanishes from the public view. Hides in New Zealand and Lupkin becomes his secret keeper. Remember the Wizard War is only in the UK and Europe. Finally Lupkin joins Sirus in New Zealand and so one else, say Mr. Wesley becomes his secret keeper.
I forever believe that Dumbledore went to Sirius and was like "you dude, you should totally give Peter the secret keeper duties" as he probably planned this whole thing to begin with
Then let Sirius sit in Azkaban for over a decade knowing he's innocent?
@@emmetthenry1373 I mean he used Harry, his plan was for Harry to die anyways. Dumbledore would risk anything to save the majority
he couldn't possibly know about the sacrifice magic though... his big plan was only born when he found out about the connection between Harry and Voldemort.
@@k.barbossa I was mainly being sarcastic cuz Dumbledore always makes these elaborate plans LOL
Its all part of dumbledores child endangerment plan
As others have mentioned below, it wouldn't change much in terms of whether James and Lily are found and killed. It would only add one extra step to Peter's betrayal. How it went in the story, James and Lily were in hiding for over a year and had visitors (Bathilda, Sirius, and possibly Lupin and Dumbledore), so in a world where Sirius is secret keeper, Peter is trusted with their location so he can visit. He can't reveal the location, but he can tell Voldemort that he's been told, that Sirius is the secret keeper, and that if Sirius is killed, he will become one of a handful of secret keepers and be able to tell him everything. Thus, it only adds the extra step of having to kill Sirius first, but Peter still becomes secret keeper, tells Voldemort, and gets James and Lily killed, leading to Harry surviving the curse, Voldemort losing his powers, and Harry becoming the chosen one.
The real question is what would happen after. In the real story, Sirius immediately knows Peter was the traitor because he was the secret keeper, so he confronted him, and was framed for Peter's murder as well as the murder of the 12 muggles Peter killed in the process. But in this alternate scenario, Sirius is dead, and the identity of who betrayed the Potters isn't as immediately obvious. It would depend on how many people Sirius told. Assuming just the 4 mentioned above, Lupin and Peter would be the most obvious suspects, and with Lupin being a werewolf, he might be the one most people assume guilty. But that raises 2 other questions. Would Lupin even be in on the secret? We're never told if Lupin was told where they were and allowed to visit, and in Prisoner of Azkaban, Sirius admits that he suspected Lupin and that's why he never told him about the secret keeper switch. So if Sirius had been secret keeper, he might not have told Lupin at all. The other question is, would Lupin have deduced Peter was the traitor and confronted him as Sirius did? Thus giving him the opening to frame him for the same crime?
Depending on how you imagine the immediate aftermath, a lot of other questions surface. If Lupin had been framed like Sirius was, would he have survived Azkaban? He didn't have an animagus form to protect himself from the dementors at times, and in fact his werewolf transformation is painful and exhausting, it would've added to his suffering, making it tougher for him to survive and escape. If he never escaped, would Peter have exposed himself and go searching for Voldemort? Or would he have continued his ruse as Scabbers. Heck, for that matter, if he was never confronted or suspected about the betrayal, would he have gone into hiding at all, or would he have searched for Voldemort immediately.
You are forgetting an important factor. If Sirius was the Secret Keeper and got killed, the Potters would've known that their secret was known to more people, which probably would've made them react differently to the situation itself considering the paranoia that existed at that time. The main reason for their downfall was that when Peter exposed them to Voldemort, they couldn't prepare for it and therefore were completely caught off guard and killed.
When they knew they had to and were ready, the Potters had already escaped Voldemort before (as the prophecy states), so if Sirius was the Secret Keeper and they knew he was dead, they probably would've been more prepared to an attack and could've maybe escaped or they would've changed locations before an attack even happened.
@@m1xd2323 you're absolutely right. I didn't actually forget it, I didn't consider it because it opens even more possibilities. Voldemort would know he has a limited window to act, how long would he take to head to Godric's Hollow? Would the Potters have time to learn of Sirius's death and adjust? If they do, how do they adjust? Would they attempt a second Fidelius charm in a different location? If so, do they ask one of their remaining friends to be secret keeper, or do they go straight to Dumbledore. It all hinges on how Voldemort handles his plan. In theory he could take Peter with him to kill Sirius, have him reveal the location immediately and then head straight for the location, but it's hard to imagine his plan working that smoothly
So many possibilities!
@@e.fideltapiaflores4638 Yeah, it creates a bunch of other possibilities. I don't know if that's true, but i assume that when a Secret Keeper dies for some reason, the people involved in the secret must know somehow, otherwise it's a pretty big loophole in the spell. The only thing that is 100% sure is that their situation would've been improved if Sirius was the Secret Keeper, they might've still died, but it would've taken longer atleast.
@@m1xd2323 if the secret keeper dies, all the people who were told the secret become secret keeper in turn. They mention it after Dumbledore dies, he was secret keeper for the order headquarters at Grimmauld Place. After his death everyone in the order becomes secret keeper themselves, which is why they stop using it as headquarters, the protection is greatly diminished. It's also why Hermione is able to reveal the location to Yaxley when he follows them there. Because Dumbledore told her the secret, she became secret keeper herself upon his death, so when she took Yaxley there, she exposed the secret to him.
Either way, you're right, with Sirius as secret keeper, there's still a path to get them for Voldemort, but there's also various windows of opportunity for them to escape him at least one more time. It's hard to determine exactly how it would've gone down.
But would bellatrix have been able to find James and Lily if they were still under the fidealus charm? Also would Harry have been allowed to go to Hogwarts or would he have just had to live in the house forever
Well they were only hiding from tom and he would have been dead by then so they wouldn't need to his anymore.
Well, Neville went to school, so I think, in the other way around, Harry would've gotten too
@@lindamazule2289 But Voldemort was not searching for Neville due to being... well, almost dead. In this scenario Harry would still need to hide.
@@salomonhernandez792 True, but the Fidelius would still be active, and AFAIK Bellatrix and co. mainly managed to take down Frank and Alice by surprising them at home... something they couldnt do at Godrics Hollow.
Voldemort couldn't just looking a child without context and just know that he is THE boy he was looking for... except Harry is the control C control V of his father.... so he is really unfortune anyway...
What if instead of having someone outside of their house the secret keeper, James and Lily made one of themselves the secret keeper?
That's a bad idea. As long as James and Lily are not the secret keeper, they can just come in and leave without consequences as long as they survive that. They don't need to hide all the time. When they are under attack they could just go back. When they are secret keepers, every time someone sees them leaving the place they risk sharing the secret. In deathly hollows exactly that happened when the ministry guy grabbed Hermine as she teleported to the secret place. If she wasn't a secret keeper the charm would have repelled the guy or maybe both because they can not share the secret.
I love the Weasley’s taking in Harry and you are absolutely right. A family with that many kids probably wouldn’t bat an eye about taking in another.
The fact that Sirius didn’t say dumbledore is just mind boggling
Maybe he felt it was a family affair. Not important enough to bring the founder of the Order himself into it.
Nah I think by that point Sirius would have grown to distrust Dumbledore, and seen through his kind wise man act and instead seen him as someone who is manipulating everyone around him for his own agenda, and effectively raising children to fight in his war. Sirius wouldn't have trusted that Dumbedore wouldnt just give the Potters up for "the greater good" if the time came
The guy who groomed Harry like a lamb for slaughter? Dumbledore would have told voldemort where they were just to fast track the whole mark him as his equal bit 😂
@@charlottep1057 that’s a really good point
The thing with fidelius charm is that it passes on to all who know. Voldemort is already set to kill Potters.
Assuming Peter was told where they live so that he can visit (Sirius was visiting in original, so I think Peter would be told too), once Sirius “would die before telling anybody”, Peter would become (one of many) secretkeepers, and look! it’s snitching time again.
You don't need to assume he'd be told, Peter did visit, Lily mentioned it in her letter to Sirius: "Wormy was here last weekend, I thought he seemed down"
@@canadianeh4792 well yes, but he was a secret keeper in the continuity, of course he could come. If Sirius was one, Sirius would have to actually tell Peter the secret, same as Peter did to Sirius in the original continuity.
That is why I pit there the assuming part
Yes! I was looking for this comment! The premise of the “what if “ doesn’t work with the way we know the secret keeper position is passed on after somebody dies
This is one that’s been in my head since your Dumbledore’s Big Plan series.
What if Sirius had gotten to Harry and transformed into a human before Harry called the Knight Bus?
Yes, PLEASE!
Omg yes!!!
that's an AWSOME idea!
I just read a fanfic where this happened. Incomplete though
@@oliviabolger2690 pasa el fanfic compa
I love this style of video and you executed it amazingly! Would love to see more. I wonder if the spell would have backfired if Voldy had gone after Neville, because Snape wouldn't have asked for him to spare Frank or Alice, so Frank or Alice wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the decision to sacrifice themselves for their son. I also wonder how anyone would have found James or Lily in this scenario, if they'd stayed in their house, but who knows, maybe they went out for fresh air. Again, love it!
I re-read the books recently and something that stood out to me so starkly is that in the 7th book all the Weasleys have to go into hiding once Ron is discovered with Harry at Malfoy Manor - but when Bill tells Harry about this, he says that Arthur is the secret keeper for all the family at Muriel's and he's the secret keeper for him and Fleur at Shell Cottage BUT that completely goes against the Fidelius Charm rule of no inhabitant as their own secret keeper. It bugs me so much when JK messes up on her own details like this, but to make it less of a painfully dumb author error I just headcannon that Bill said it the wrong way around. Ofc Arthur is keeper for the cottage, and Bill is keeper for Muriel's. Bill just rushed the words and got confused I guess.
When was that a rule? Like, when was it established?
How about if Lupin has been the secret keeper, he was just as devoted to the potter as Sirius plus him being a werewolf means people probably wouldn't try to talk to him. Yes i get that people weren't trusting werewolves at that time but in my opinion the fact that James trusted Lupin might have helped Sirius get over his own trust issues towards Remus
Well, I think even sirius trusted remus, after all, he did help with the hiding of his secret, became an animagus, and made the marauders map with him
@@tacoclaus8168 That was before the war. When the war hit a lot of werewolves were being turned to Voldy's side and they say in the book that even though they trusted him it was too dangerous to risk Lupin becoming secret keeper. There was also a bigger risk of Lupin dying just for being a werewolf and thus making everyone who was told secret keeper.
@@ylvadahlstrom1628 I agree there is the risk of Remus being killed simply because he's a werewolf but as J pointed out in the video if the secret keeper dies with out telling anyone then no one would actually be able to find the potters plus even if Remus hasn't told anyone it's possible Sirius would become secret keeper as he already knew the location of the potters since James and Lily made him Harry's godfather
I think in the books was said that in that moment when they wanted to perfom fidelius charm lupin was far away with some kind of order of the pheonix mission so sirius suggested to trust petigrew then
What if Harry had been sorted into Slytherin, but still got friends with Ron on the train and refused Dracos offer of friendship?
What if Peter had been properly restrained (eg. petrificus totalus) when they took him up to the castle. Or if Remus had remembered his potion that day?
What if Harry had never given the map to the wrong Moody?
What if Harry had touched the triwizard cup already on 2 instead of 3, therefore leaving Cedric behind?
Those are the best what ifs ever.😃
1) Harry would have been an outsider in his dorm and, extensively, his home, as Slytherins would never accept him with a nlood traitor friend instead of a highly influential pure blood.
2) Voldemort couldn't have returned in Little Hangleton, and if eventually he does, the wizarding world would have been ready for him, as Dumbledore's wild statements have been proven right in the past.
3) By that point in the timeline, it wouldn't have made much difference. Crouch Jr would have been caught, but he had, by that time, played his part. The Ministry may have believed Dumbledore though.
4) Nothing, except Cedric would have survived and Harry would have missed out on his relationship with Cho Chang.
"If my grandmother had wheels, she would have been a bike" (th-cam.com/video/A-RfHC91Ewc/w-d-xo.html)
1. Seems to be getting answered right now on the channel
I like to think harry being protected at all made Voldy want to go kill him. It could've been Neville, but the fact Harry had a bunch of protection, including a fidelius charm, placed on him .. he'd think Dumbledore knew he was the chosen one, not Neville.
It couldn't have been Neville actually. Who would die and place the love protection on Neville
@@chickenpanda1179 weren't his parents not tortured by this point? And his grandparents also could do that. With how his grandmother talks about his parents any of them (or her) would've do it.
@@IslarfPokemon his parents were tortured after Tom's death. Beatrix wanted information from them.
@@anna.owo. so it'd be Harry's parents tortured instead (or no one gets tortured)
@@IslarfPokemon ok was it after. So then his parents would have to put the love protection on Neville or he still wouldn't be the chosen
Would love to see other “what if’s” on secret keepers - maybe just as one video: Lupin, Dumbledore, Petunia, Aberforth, Bathilda, etc.
Such a great montage of all the rough things that happened. Only thing missing was a quick "It's pretty obvious" and a Voldemort laugh (never a bad time to use that clip).
theory idea. im Listening to OOTP again and something occured to me: did umbridge have a time turner? she seems to be doing a lot. after trelawney and hagrid are on probation she is in every one of their classes, not just harry's divination and care of magical creatures lessons, but all the classes for all grades and houses. she is also inspecting all the mail herself (it is approved by the high inquisitor herself as per easter packages) also since she is in harry's career advice w/ mcgonogall id assume she is in every students career advice. many other things as well but thats all i can think of off the top of my head.
edit: also she is teaching all of her own classes of course and being the headmistress
probably not but maybe. The core classes from the first 2 are held most often. Take herbology 2 classes per year for years 1-5 and one class each for years 6 &7 means Sprout teaches 12 classes a week. Trelawney only 8 per week. Umbridge is like Sprout. There are 4 classes per day for 20 possible classes.
If Umbridge had a time turner, she would have prevented her downfall. I believe she didnt really do all this herself, for example the mail. I think she just let Filch read the mail and claim it was her to scare off the students. And I believe she concentrated on fighting Harry and the Order and cared less about the average headmaster duties. And she just works really hard in general.
Here's a dark what-if: What if Voldemort succeeded in killing Harry that night when he was a baby? Could he have been stopped at all later on by Dumbledor or Snape, or Sirius, or someone else?
I suppose in that case there's no prophecy and he could have been killed by anyone, most likely Dumbeldore
Neville would have killed Tom Riddle.
He would have had to mark him as his equal and then somehow not kill him, and then kill him later.
@@lichterin143 no, there is still a prophecy - Voldemort just already fulfilled it. "either must die at the hand of the other" already happened when Harry was a 1-year-old.
story ends and Voldemort wins. Prophecy ends
I started reading Harry Potter because of you guys and now it’s my favorite book series thanks brother
Me too!
That's awesome!
@@SuperCarlinBrothers please can you make video about The Pensieve jetzt history who is Creator must be if it was the only one of it's kind
@@SuperCarlinBrothers In this scenario with Sirius as the Potters' secret keeper, would Neville have survived? I mean Voldemort wouldn't have offered Alice Longbottom a chance to live as the only reason he offered Lily a chance to survive was because of Snape? So sacrificial love magic doesn't come into play as Alice isn't given an opportunity to live but Neville is still marked as Voldemort's equal so the prophecy is still in play. So does it come down to if the prophecy can override Neville never having received sacrificial love protection as his mother wasn't given a choice to live? Because if not, does that just mean Neville dies as a baby and Harry grows up and still defeats Voldemort anyway?
@@krishmajumder1411 I think you are right. Because only with Harry all lines of the prophecy comes to life. Because in the end, nothing else mattered, Lilly's sacrificial protection saved Harry, and the fact that elder wand would not kill his true Master ment, that the spell rebounced and killed Voldemort. Because, I think, Harry would never use a killing curse even on Voldemort. And Voldemort's killing curse would not affect Harry anyways because of the protection...🤔
I have always kind of wondered why the Potters didn’t ask Dumbledore to be their secret keeper. He being, allegedly, the only person Voldemort is afraid of seems to be the perfect candidate. Not picking him suggests that the Potters didn’t completely trust him. I wonder if growing up in Godric’s Hollow, James had heard some rumors about Albus’ youth, and that was the reason for their imperfect trust in him.
Would you trust Dumbel- for the greater good -dore in that situation? If he had known that sharing the secret could lead to creating the one who can defeat the dark lord, there is a high chance that with the situation getting worse every day he would give up the secret for the greater good. I think even Dumbledore would not trust himself.
Love this format. Another idea is doing a comment section video, where you pick comments from one of your videos and discus them, their probability, theories, other stuff. That would be a fun one for J and Ben to do together
I'm calling it now, this theory will be Siriusly good (I make no apologies for this joke)
No apology necessary
*get out*
just kidding you can stay
It’s a siriulsy good joke
Why. Just why
To be honest I don’t think Voldemort was actually more powerful than Grindelwald. I believe Voldemort seems more powerful because of his Horcruxes and being obsessed with not dying. Whereas Gridelwald was more curious and tried to use every kind of dark magic he could. So I actually believe if you put Voldemort at his prime versus Grindelwald at his prime I actually believe Grindelwald would actually win quite easily
I think Voldemort was more evil but not necessarily more powerful.
What if Dumbledore was Sirius's secret keeper, Sirius was Lily and James's secret keeper, and either Lily or James was Dumbledore's secret keeper...??
You can cut all the extra steps and make lily the secret keeper, that makes the most sense, but than the story wouldn't happen.
OMG, you just sort of blew my mind! Why didn't the Potters just make each other their secret keepers?
@@סראדס I don't think it's possible to put yourself as both a secret keeper and THE secret in a Fidelius charm. Otherwise Sirius would be the perfect secret keeper for Grimmauld place, not Dumbledore.
@@archaiahp the secret is the house. Dumbledore is obviously able to enter grimmauld place, what would have happend if he had decided to move in?
Wouldn't he be able to?
@@archaiahp But isn't Bill his own secret keeper in book 7?
I would like a fanfic where Sirius really is Voldemort's right hand man and blamed Ron's totally normal pet rat in an attempt to get Harry to trust him.
Imagine if Voldemort marked Neville as his equal cuz Neville turned bouncy like when he was tossed out a window and the spell somehow bounces off him and hits Voldemort… very unlikely but still fun to think about.
How about, "What if the Resurrection Stone were used on Nearly-Headless Nick?" i.e. used on someone who's ghost was visible to wizards
I'd love to know the possibilities of that :O
The resurrection stone does require a strong emotional connection to those your trying to summon so I doubt the older ghosts could work but I'm sure there's a grieving family for Myrtle out there to try, assuming non-magicals can use the stone
@@p_3ater160 Is it ever specifically stated that you require a strong emotional connection? I can't remember it being. It could be that you just need to think of any specific person and they come back, even though the way we see it used is only for people with emotional connections.
I saw a messed up what if that was kinda about that but Nick was inducted in the Headless Hunt, not resssurected. Essentially if Nick is not there, Justin doesn't see the basilisk through him. He doesn't just get petrified, he straight up dies. They shut down the school and because Ginny still has the diary Tom riddle comes back at the Burrow and essentially murders all of the Weasleys with Pettigrew's help. He then finds what remains of himself to get all the information he would need and starts a new takeover of the Wizarding world.
Ben for Kvothe!🗡🧙🏻♂️ J for Elodin!🧙🏻♂️🗡 The Harry Potter theories are my absolute favorite! I legitimately accept them as canon because you guys are THAT convincing.
Hey brother, congratulations you're the shortlisted winner's of the ongoing ps5 giveaway..
I've considered this before my compliments to the super carlins for this upload
Enjoy!
According to "the author"? Come on guys. It should be reasonable to say her name. She did create the Wizarding World we love. Don't be afraid of backlash to the point of ridiculous censorship.
I had a headcanon at the end of book 5 that Neville might end up being the chosen one as a twist ending. I was taken with the line about Ron's injuries from the brains in the Department of Mysteries. (Remember how Ron fought the brains?) It was something like, "Those wounds will take a long time to heal. Thoughts leave the deepest scars." It seemed like a line that would be important later. And I know this doesn't hold with the "Voldemort will mark his equal" bit of the prophecy, but we had just learned in that book how invisibly scarred Neville was from his parents' trauma (even though that would have been Bellatrix's mark, not Voldy's). They were both "marked" in a way. I cheered when Neville became an integral part of defeating Voldy.
This is a really fun idea for a series. Definitely do more of them. I've always thought about what if Peter Pettigrew hadn't escaped in Prisoner of Azkaban. Harry could've lived with Sirius and never see the Dursleys again. Voldemort may not have returned
What if Lupin/Sirius stupified Peter in Prisoner of Askaban to take him to the dementors?
Well, the full Moon would still be in there, causing Lupin to become a Werewolf, and the Dementors would still to after Sirius, so with both protectors disabled, I think Wormtail would still regain concuousness, transform into a rat, and run for his Life... 🤔
@@lindamazule2289 I think before he would regain his consciousness Harry and Hermione would guard him so I think it's possible that they would just petrify him again. But still, all the commotion. Who knows ;)
@@lindamazule2289 Maybe conjure a cage and have him STAY a rat in it until say, McGonagall forces the return transformation in the Great Hall. Tabby Cat is very much capable of keeping an eye on a rat, I'd say. Not to mention Mrs. Norris, Crookshanks and other cats along with the owls -- you're not getting away. From Ministry custody later, though...
@@lindamazule2289 have snape harry hermuione sirus black perform a body bind or create aan illusion that they are werewolfs simple
But that’s assuming that Sirius never told anyone. The people in his circle of trust like Lupin and Peter would have been told. Then when Sirius died, they would have become secret keepers and Peter would have “ratted” out the Potters and the whole scenario would play out as normal.
One would love to see more what if content. Two questions the first one: Is it possible for Sirius to have lived with Lilly and James and still been their Secret Keeper? And second, If eventually Voldemort would have hunted down Neville as the other likely candidate and Snape was already a spy for Dumbledore, wouldn't Dumbledore having received such information from Snape; being in good confidence with Voldemort had hidden them under the same charm and simply use Neville's grandmother as a Secret Keeper?
I dont think that Voldemort is forced to mark one of them. Dumbeldore said that not all phrophesys get fufilled, its just somethinf that might happen. So in this alternate timeline, voldemort might just never mark anyone
Had Voldemort gone for Neville, the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled either. Harry survived because Lily chose to die to save him, casting the protective charm. The only reason she had a choice is because Snape loved her and asked Voldemort to spare her life. If he had gone for Neville, Snape wouldn't have cared about Alice dying. She wouldn't have been given a choice to live, so she couldn't have cast a protective charm over Neville. Neville dies as a baby, Voldemort thinks he's defeated the prophecy and never goes after Harry, therefore never marking him as his equal.
The prophecy is only true because Voldemort chose Harry.
Questions-
Relistening to Ollivander tell Harry about how the phoenix that gave his feather, only gave 1 other, it got me thinking. Is there a special process the feather has to go through to be a wand core? Couldn’t they take any feather the bird molts to use as the core?
"so we all know that it could either have been Harry or Neville, but Voldemort went after Harry. Did Neville ever find out that it could have been him, or was he blissfully unaware?"
How do people go missing in Quidditch?
I think they are special ones given by the phoenix. (Willingly given IS a thing here; that's the only way you can get any). Like -- you can have several people hang onto the tail feathers of a phoenix for transport (so no, you can't just yank one off unlike unicorn tail hair and they will kick anyone daring to do that, of course -- and the molted feathers burn into ashes so the phoenix can be reborn (don't burn yourself there).
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 fair enough. I was thinking that animals molt or shed their hair/feathers, so if you walked through the forest and found a unicorn hair, would that work, but I guess not. I’d love to know the full process though. That would be cool to actually see. Maybe in one of the movies coming out in the future, we’ll actually see wands being made. I think that would be cool personally
@@AbstractlyMe83 Well how would Olllivander know which individual unicorn it came from if he just picked it from the forest? I think he said something about the stallion he collected the hair in Cedric's wand from kicking him... To Harry the day he bought his -- the phoenix gave one other feather.
@@elderscrollsswimmer4833 oh I’m not saying Ollivander was just trash picking through the forest and found some Unicorn hair. I’m just more asking like, if someone came across a unicorn hair in the forest, COULD that be used to make a wand, or is there a special ceremony to collect the hair/feather/heartstrings
@@AbstractlyMe83 I figure the dragon he gets them from is dead or otherwise unaware he does it. A unicorn kicking you is one thing, a living dragon annoyed at you quite another. Mind, I figure Fleur's grandmother gave the hair freely. Possibly the rosewood was growing in the family back yard and possibly her wand was made by a family member if not Fleur herself.
I've always considers the prophecy to be a 50/50 situation for voldemort. "Neither can live whilst the other survives" If voldemort had marked Neville as his equil then I believe Neville would have died in the end and Voldemort would have won. Pick Neville, he wins. Pick Harry, he loses
I always wonder what would’ve happened if James or Lily was the secret keeper. Then if Voldemort went to find them he would have no idea where to find him and even if he went after Sirius or Wormtail it would’ve been impossible to find them anyway because they can’t say where they are
I can see this scenario going very differently. I think Sirus would've been the secret keeper, and Voldemort would've gone after him. But I think because of his bravery, intelligence, blood status and family (belaxtrix, Regulus [Voldy never knew Regulus was a spy], the Malfoy's etc.), I think Voldemort would've offered to spare Sirius's life if he were to join the dark side. Sirius would've obviously refused, which would've led to Voldmeort killing him, but I think this could have cast the same love protection over Harry, Lily, and James, which is usually just over Harry. This way, Harry could've grown up with his parents, out in the open the way he usually is, as long as he calls Godricks Hollow his home.
In this scenario, there's a few ways in which it can go:
1. They trust the love protection spell that was put on them by Sirius and head out into the open, which leaves Harry easily accessible to an attack by Voldemort, which allows the prophecy to come true as Voldemort marks him as his equal, but because of Sirius's sacrifice it backfires and Voldemort still falls the same as the normal story, only Harry gets to keep his family.
2. Dumbledore isn't sure if the love protection sacrifice will work, so the Potters still live locked up in their home with no one for company, completely hidden under the fidelius charm
3. The news of Sirius's death spreads before Voldmeort can find the Potters, so the Longbottoms get some better security, which means that
a) Voldmort can't find them and mark Neville as his equal, and
b) Belatrix can't find them or torture them after Voldemort falls, which allows Neville to grow up in a loving home as well.
4. With James and Lily alive, Remus would've had his support system around him, and wouldn't have faced homelessness like he does in the normal story. I think Sirius would've been the secret keeper, but after he died, Lily and James would've known their own adress and would've automatically become secret keepers, and could've safely told Peter and Remus, with no fear of them going to Voldemort (they still didn't know who the spy was) because neither one of them could share the secret as neither of them was secret keeper.
5. I also feel like somwhere in here is a storyline about James finding out about Sirius dying and going after Voldemort himself. Because of Sirius's love protection, James is protected from Voldemort. I can't quite get the the end of this thread though, someone feel free to keep pulling on it.
I feel like 1 is the most probable because it still holds the prophecy in its centre, but I feel like if Sirius was the secret keeper, everyone is happier and safer. Honestly even Sirius, knowing he's dying to protect Lily and James, rather than his usual story of 12 years in Askaban, 1 year on the run eating rats, and one year in his childhood trauma house, before dying in battle anyway.
I have a dozen what ifs:
1.) What if Snape hadn't called Lily Evans "Mudblood" and had ended up marrying her instead of James, thus becoming Harry's father? (This is a wildcard, as it would be him dueling Voldemort instead of James, plus, in this scenario, he almost certainly NEVER became a Death Eater, meaning that Voldemort may not have gotten the bit of the Prophecy that Snape overheard, unless he'd have Peter or someone do that job instead.)
2.) What if Arianna Dumbledore's had never been tortured, meaning Albus Dumbledore had a more normal childhood and never partnered with Grindelwald?
3.) What if Grindelwald had killed Dumbledore in the famous duel? (Would he stop Voldermort's rise to power, not being in his own jail? Would Voldermort come and kill him? (I can see him offering Voldermort an alliance, as they had similar goals, but while Grindelwald clearly didn't mind having a partner in crime, Voldermort clearly likes working alone and so I think he'd turn him down. Also, with Dumbledore dead, would Hogwarts fall to one or the other of the Dark Lords? Would Grindelwald have a change of heart some point later, perhaps to Voldermort becoming more powerful than him and also perhaps seeing the error of his ways, and perhaps be a mentor to Harry instead of Dumbledore?)
4.) What if Hagrid had given Harry to Sirius after the death of Lily and James? Would Sirius still have gone after Pettigrew with his best friend's son in tow or would he have tried a different tactic (like going to Dumbledore to tell of Peter's treachery rather than being hot-headed and seeking Peter himself, risking Harry being killed in a possible duel between him and Peter))?
5.) What if Petunia Dursley had a change of heart of her stance on anti-magic and all after her sister's murder and had given Harry the letter and been kinder to him? How would Harry's story have been different if he wasn't abused by the Dursley's? Would Petunia and Vernon have divorced or would he too have mellowed out toward Harry and the magical world?
6.) What if Peter had been caught (perhaps Snape hadn't been knocked out and his extra presence was enough to capture Peter) and Peter was either Kissed or sent to Azkaban (thus foiling Trawlaney's prophecy (BTW, I think in Book 5 Dumbledore states that loads of Prophecies in the Hall of Prophecy ended up NEVER happening, so it's possible that Trawlaney's doesn't either, or that some other servant, perhaps Barty Crouch Jr, who if you recall was still alive, somehow got free of his father's imperius curse sooner (he was getting closer to it at that point anyway, if you recall from Book 4) and simply found Voldermort and took the role of Pettigrew. After all, in a way, he too was "chained" for twelve years, first literally in Azkaban and later to his father under the Imperius Curse. Ths, the prophecy could still have been fulfilled that night anyway even with Peter's capture.) Would Harry living with his godfather instead of the Dursley's have changed anything? Would Sirius have not died in this case, perhaps not having to be so cooped up as he would be a free man here, hopefully (though it's possible Fudge would have tried to get rid of Sirius ANYWAY to save face rather than go explain to the press that they spent all of those resources chasing the WRONG man.)
7.) What if Harry and Hermoine had been caught in book 3, granted AFTER rescuing Sirius, but clearly where they'd be implicated for his escape? Granted, I can see Dumbledore taking the fall here like he did in book 5 in the Centaur and the Sneak, especially as here, unlike in book 5, he actually DID conspire with Harry to do it, but that still creates a new situation, possibly with someone like Umbridge being appointed by the Ministry to replace Dumbledore as the new headmaster in book 4. Also, evne if not expelled, Harry's every move would be watched by the Ministry, meaning he could NEVER make contact, even in the fireplace or whatever, with Sirius.
8.) What if Horcrux Tom Riddle had succeeded in killing Harry and taking the life force from Ginny? Would this have returned the 60+ year old Voldemort, perhaps as his 16 year old self, or would there now be TWO Voldemorts, one a 16 year old and the other still in his sixties but wihtout his body and most of his powers gone?
9.) What if Hagrid had NEVER been expelled? Suppose that Tom Riddle was never able to catch him with Aragog and ended up having to frame someone else or something for Myrtles death, meaning that Hagrid graduated at the end of his seventh year and didn't have such a sucky childhood (i.e. losing his father, losing his giantess mother when he was little, being expelled, etc) and instead was able to use magic and also never went to Azkaban in Book 2, having never been framed by Riddle?
10.) What if Mad Eye Moody have never been killed in the Battle of the Seven Potters? How do you think his survival in the last book and possible addition to the Battle of Hogwarts would have changed things?
11.) What if Fudge had not used the Dementor on Barty Crouch Jr. but had instead done the right thing and used his testimony of Voldemort's return and told people the truth? Would the lack of an extra year of preparation have stopped Voldemort's takeover of the Ministry in Deathly Hallows or would it still have happened anyway?
12.) What if Kreature had been able to save REgulas Black (I think he could have apparated Regulus out of that cave as well)? Would his surivla have perhaps changed Mrs. Black's view on Sirius and Voldmoert after him revealing who Voldemort REALLY was to her? Would anyway else have learned about the Horcruxes, possibly even enusirng that enough were destroyed that Voldermort's defeat in Godrick's Hallow was his actual death?
I love this type of video, I would love to see more! You should look up Harry Potter folklore. A TH-cam channel that does a lot of Siri videos like this. Collaboration!
Neville could not have survived in this scenario because Voldemort would never have given Nevils mother the chance to live. It has been stated by J. K. Rowling that in order for The sacrificial magic to work, the sacrificer must be given an option to live. You have stated this yourself in other videos so you know this. Voldemort only gave Harry’s mother an option to live because Snape asked him to. Snape would not have cared about Neville‘s parents and not have asked Voldemort to spare either of them. Therefore neville would have died if there had not been some other circumstance that would have spared him. Which, there very well could have been. But What, I cannot say.
Also, if Harry and his parents were safe in their house, does that mean harry never would have gone to Hogwarts? Does it mean that none of them would ever be able to leave their house for the entirety of the Wizarding war? And we thought lockdown was bad.😵💫
Also also! Actually actually! Even if Harry and Ginny had been raised as siblings and not developed romantic feelings for each other, Harry and Hermione would never have gotten together because “there is literally no romantic chemistry between them ever“!!!
I think you're forgetting about the fact that not all prophecies are fulfilled even Dumbledore says that they're not. However I think that if you take in account of Voldemort going after Neville instead of Harry he would have killed Neville kill Neville's parents and then he would perceive himself as invincible. Thus he might actually end up slipping and letting his guard down. Now that you have Snape working as a double agent to protect Lily eventually Snape may have learned about the horcruxes the same way that Sirius's brother Regulus did, thus Dumbledore would have found out and with Voldemort letting his guard down more often in his arrogance of thinking he's absolutely 100% protected he could still end up dead yeah it might not be right away it might be a couple of years.
Harry could also grow up face the dark lord in battle and beat him then.
My question is what would have happened had regulus used his head more and survived the cave. My theory is he would have discovered the rest of the horcruxes and he would have systematically taken care of them as much as he could and once the dark lord fell unsuspectingly he would not have his horcruxes to save him and there would have been no second Wizard War.
Regulus only found out about the 1 horcrux because Voldemort used kreecher to hide it. He had no idea about the others...
@@theactualbacon3532 true. however he was a smart ambitious young man. He also was growing to not trust Voldemort. After finding out about the one and if he had gotten away he would have been determined to take Voldemort down. If he was willing to sacrifice himself I believe he would have continued to fight Voldemort from with in his ranks. Furthermore he may have found out from his cousin Bellatrix that a possession was left with her and he would have gotten even more suspicious
The thing about this prophecy in particular is that Voldemort 100% believes it. If he ignored it, then nothing would've happened. But it's his insistence to fulfill the "either must die at the hands of the other" bit that allows Harry to escape time and time and time again, since none of the other Death Eaters are brave enough to take the shot for themselves
This leaves room open for a movie where Snape slowly gets rid of the people he doesn't like by telling Voldemort that they're connected to the Potters in some way
Just 1 thing that caught my attention. The spell doesn’t protect the Potters, just the information of their location. So it’s still possible to hunt them down by 3rd parties, scouts, guesses, etc.
You can't kill what you can't find. Which is the whole point of the Fidelius Charm
You should do a what if...if Voldemort had targeted James and Lilly first instead of Harry then simply walked out.
A better question is what would have happened if James himself was the secret keeper. I mean, we literally see Bill do that in Deathly Hallows, so we know its possible, and so would anyone skilled enough to cast the Fidelius charm.
I have a little theory to why it was so important to switch other than it being to obvious. Sirius is from the Black family and most of his family members are either deatheaters or deateather supporters. So they would know how to hurt him. They would know who they could use as leverage against him, that being his brother. Regulus was a deatheater at the time, and even though they wouldn't be able to harm Sirius if he was the secret keeper his little brother would be free game. My theory is that Peter convinced Sirius that if he was the secret keeper Regulus would be used as leverage.
Regulus died in 1979, the Potters were killed in 1981. Also, I'm pretty sure it was a well known fact that Sirius didn't care about his brother. He hated his entire family, left at the age of 16 and didn't look back until the Order needed somewhere for headquarters.
@@luciemanson2546 I'm fully aware that Sirius hates his family but the way he talks about his brother makes him seam like an exception. He saids to Harry that Regulus was soft enough to believe them and calls him an idiot. In contrast he calls bellatrix deranged and uses a lot of sarcasm to talk about his other family members. His brother was a deatheater and he calls him an idiot not malicious. In the movie they even take it a bit further where Regulus was used as an argument to strengthen the case: "the world isn't split into good people we all have good and darkness inside of us". It reads to me that Sirius despises Regulus for being the "better son" as well as choosing their family over him. Because "soft enough to believe them" reads to me like he was given another alternative that he didn't take, that alternative being to be with Sirius. Sirius resents him for choosing their family over him, that wouldn't have hurted at all if he flatt out didn't care about Regulus at all.
As for the time stamp, the potters where in hiding for a while too. Lilly sends Sirius a letter during the sommer of that year where she tells him about how their life had been the following year. The letter also contains some pictures of Harry on his toy broomstick on his 1. Birthday. And the aslo tells him that Peter has been acting really upset but thinks it's just because he is greving the McKinnons. The letter hints to the fact that Peter has betrayed them. So even though they died in 1981, Peter was made secret keeper much earlier than that, possibly as early as Harrys birth.
As for Regulus death in 1979. No one except for kreecher knew how he died. He drowned in a cave, no one found his body. Remus and Sirius comes up with a theory for what happened to him in Order of the Phenix but nigther of them know what actually happened.
The perspective of Harry and Ron growing up together and running into Neville at the platform making the three of them best friends for life *^* I really love that
The secret keeper definitly should have been Lupin
If Neville’s parents were killed wouldn’t the “power of love” not protect Neville? Because Voldemort never would have given Neville’s parents the chance to live. Harry only had the power of sacrificial love only worked since Snape wouldn’t have convinced him to give her the chance to live. In that scenario wouldn’t Voldemort win?
We don't know about Snape relationship with Alice or Frank ! Maybe he was close to any of them
@@MMD_16-95 well, I think this video was assuming the same events happened in the original series, with the caveat that Peter wasn’t the secret keeper. And even if Snape doesn’t hate Neville’s parents, he definitely doesn’t love them to the same extent he does Lily, I don’t think that he would have directly asked Voldemort to spare them.
@@vanitaprakash1547
He will, he probably felt guilty after what he saw Voldemort true color but he didn't have any place to return! In the 7th book Dumbledore asked Snape how many people you watched death! He said " recently only those who i couldn't save " . Not for Lily or even Dumbledore
Oh gosh the bots have come to my comment…
The only reason Harry was saved was because Lily had the choice to move but didn't. Snape had asked Voldemort to spare her so instead of killing Lily instantly, he told her to move. Snape wouldn't have asked Voldemort to spare Neville's parents so the whole family would have been killed. Basically everything that already happened would still happen but Harry would just be attacked by Voldemort much later in his life.
I came here looking for this!
Yes. Neville and his whole family will die. But the potter may or may not will get killed. Voldy may just think he beat the prophecy already.
I don't think Dumbledore would give Harry to the Weaslies. He barly knew them. There were many people in the order who would gladly take Harry in and that Dumbledore trusted more.
Andromeda Tonks would have definitely taken in Harry! They're distantly related through Dorea Black and assuming the wizarding world has similar laws about family adoptions as the muggle world then its her or Narcissa Malfoy, who would have trouble with the adoption process around that time due to her husband fending off the ministry about him being a death eater
I had a really interesting thought while watching. What if you hid the identity of the secret keeper inside a second secret keeper? So Voldy is looking for the Potter's secret Keeper (Sirius), but the only person who could actualy tell him who to actually look for is Remus?
Interesting thought ngl
Lily wrote to syrius "If you could visit, it would cheer him [James] up so much" but it sound a lot like they gave secret to more than just secret keeper. So the think that would happen would be killing syrius and then going after potters with wormtail as secret keeper or potters changing hideout with wormtail as secret keeper or finaly giving the job to dumbi in next hideout.
Why would James & Lily be tortured into insanity again? Bellatrix believed that Frank & Alice Longbottom would know what happened to Voldemort because they were two of the Ministry's top Aurors. James & Lily weren't Aurors.
Bellatrix was convinced that the Longbottoms had information on Voldemort's whereabouts because they were included in the prophecy. It's not hard to see why Bellatrix would have tortured the James and Lily too.
I read the cursed child recently and the time travel works the exact same way as the other books.
This “What if..” style of video if FASCINATING. Love it, one hundred million percent. Please do more.
14:23 Or McGonagall. Also, a "Hey, Brother" logo with Harry/Ron's faces would totally be awesome
6:50 wrooong. Snape hates serius and james but not lupin. Lupin was the calmest of them and when the order picks up harry and are chased by the deatheaters snape actually tries to save lupin. A deatheater wants to cast a curse and snaoe tries to use sempra to make him miss and then by accident hits fred or georg. So while yes he wouldn't mind serius nor james to die. I don't think he hated lupin
Snape HATED all the Marauders, he just hated Lupin the least.
@@paulyb7267 he saved his life. This is just never mentioned in the films. It is very clear in the books tho that when the fake harrys fly on their brooms he wants to cast a spell on a deatheater that want's to go for lupin. The spell misses the target and hits fred or george but ultimately confuses the deatheater and saves lupins life. He literally could have been find out for doing that just to save lupins life. I don't think he hated him
Okay, randomly started watching all the Harry Potter theories recently despite originally not being the biggest fan of the franchise. When the title of the video was said, I started quoting Sirius' "I would have died before betraying my friend," only to hear that actual quote. Long overdue subscription earned :)
The chosen one prophecy could simply be taken literally as the one He chose in this particular What If
This alternative plot is so much fun to listen to. So good and so imaginative
1. The Potters' location wasn't the secret, the Potters themselves were the entities that were hidden. This was implied in the books too, where it was said that Voldemort could have looked through their window and still not find them. That's why neither James nor Lily could have made themselves the secret keeper. Also, placing anyone else besides the least obvious (in this case Peter Pettigrew) would have made that secret keeper a huge target. This means that there was a high chance that Sirius would have been killed. Even if the Potters chose Dumbledore as their secret keeper, Dumbledore was already an obvious choice and was a high target leading the resistance against Voldemort. As invincible as we know Dumbledore to be, we only know this in hindsight and so during the first Wizarding war it could be assumed that there was a good possibility that Dumbledore could have died.
2. The first point brings me to this second point, which is that I believe once a secret keeper dies (without revealing the secret), the charm dies and becomes null and void. Things go back to the way they were in the first place before the charm was done. This has to be the only logical explanation. The secret is encased in the keeper's soul so when the keeper dies and the soul is released, the secret shouldn't be bounded to the keeper anymore. That's probably why you wouldn't want your secret keeper being put at risk of dying in the first place, hence the Potters' logical choice of going with someone who isn't an obvious choice. Imagine instead if the charm is cemented permanently upon the secret keeper's death, then a tactical move might be to make a very old or sick person the secret keeper so they don't have much longer to live. Or if you're a villain you can keep a secret forever by making them a secret keeper and then killing them immediately after.
How big of a location can the secret keeper keep secret? The Potters were confined to their house becasue I guess their specific address was the secret, but what if they were just hiding in France or something and that was as specific as the secret was? Would they be protected within the entire country of France?
Additionally, what if France gained or lost land and the border moved? Would that affect the boundaries of the secret?
I thought Snape didn't switch sides until after Lilly died, so I see no reason Snape would switch sides in this new timeline
he switched before.
@@snocaps231 no, he was fully committed to the death eaters before they went against his interests in fact with James and Lilly alive he'd be even more loyal to Voldemort
It was Voldemort's decision to hunt down the Potters that made Snape switch sides. He then went to Dumbledore and begged for him to protect Lily....................................................................and James and Harry
1 - the Potters i assume would know where they lived so would become their own secret keepers when Sirius and Remus died ?
2 - Would Hogwarts end up much emptier if he and Neville weren't immediately findable as Voldemort became more paranoid and went after anyone born that year, or tried different calendars to find different seventh months (e.g. September is 7th month in the Julian calendar, or looking for the waning of the 7th moon of the year/7th moon after he discovers the prophecy ) He might even worry that some DE's were spying on him and go after their children (possibly resulting in them actually turning on him), could go after child of anyone who protested against him ever, anyone who isn't PureBlood on logic that the parents had defied him by marrying and producing an "impure" child - could result in a lot of dead children.
3 - If no-one knew the secret to where the Potters where as either they were now the keeper or the secret was fully sealed, would it have taken longer before they knew Voldemort had fallen and therefor they didn't come out of hiding and so didn't get cursed to insanity by Bellatrix..
I love this format! I would love to see more What if videos :) I also think you should do Voldemort's Big Plan book by book the way you did for Dumbledore.
As for where Harry goes - I suggest one of the Black sisters, either Andromeda or Narcissa.
It’s been a while so I can’t recall how closely Harry himself would’ve been with them, but as Sirius was his godfather, Sirius’ blood family would have some sense.
Sirius thought Lupin was the spy, so he thought Moldevort would kill him then Lupin would also be a secret keeper and tell Moldy. Obviously.
Read the last word sarcastically.
12:30 Actually, that depends. If it was Neville's Dad who died to save him, then yes, his grandmother would have taken him. But, if is was his mother, then it would have to be someone on his Alice's side of the family. Because Dumbledore would have used the sacrifice of whichever one it was to protect Neville like he did with Harry by sending him to Petunia.
That little compilation at the start and still the one that gives me the most chills is umbridge and I'm watching oftp rn lol
12:00 I think this is a bad take. My impression is always that Voldemort "mark[ed] him as his equal" by choosing to target him, that is, from the moment he decided that it was Harry who was the greater threat, he locked in Harry as the one who could defeat him. Presumably this happened the instant that Snape told him of the prophecy and he realised that it could apply to either of them.
I loved this line of thanking, but the only thing I would also consider is in the 7th book, in Lily's letter she asks Sirius to come and visit soon to cheer James up.
This means Peter told the secret to at least Sirius while being the secret keeper.
This may also mean Sirius would trust people like Peter and Lupin with the location as well. Therefore when they kill Sirius, Peter and Lupin will be the two secret keepers and Peter will be free to tell Voldemort.
May just happen a little later on.
Honestly, this would have happened with Lupin too. He loved his friends because they were family and would have given his life for them if it meant their safety
One thing's for sure, Harry would still be famous because the Potter name is a famous family name.
There’s a fanfic series I read a couple of years ago (the series was never completed) in which Harry had an older brother named Milo. Harry was still raised by the Dursleys (since he was the only one marked as the chosen one) while Milo was taken in by McGonagall (and in the fics she’s a very loving mother to Milo). So because if this fanfic series, I like to believe that if the Dursleys weren’t able to take Harry in, then Minnie most certainly would have
In this scenario, just how long could the Potters live in isolation? I can honestly see a situation where James has had enough of hiding out and ends up spilling the secret himself down at the local pub.
Something I noticed while going over all the magical family trees.
Harry is blood related to the Weasleys.. that whole "he has to be raised in the home of his family to keep his mother's protection" thing, would of still applied if he lived with the Weasleys..
The Cursed Child already has some new "what if" timelines showing us how tampering with time affected the outcomes of multiple events. I'd love to watch a SCB video on those timelines!
I guess I always assumed that the Longbottoms were also in hiding until Voldemort disappeared. It’s been so long since I read the books that I’m not sure that’s spelled out.
I loved this what if. If you have more ideas around this please do this. The one thing that I saw I. This theory is that after Dumbledore’s death Arthur Weasley say that all the people Dumbledore told the secret to become secret keeper. It’s why the order think it’s no longer safe to use Grim Old Place as headquarters. So if Sirius if secret keeper, he needs to go into hiding. If Dumbledore was though, Voldemort is still too afraid to attack Dumbledore, so the secret is safe.
i think peter might've convinced sirius to give him a note telling him where the potters are, then peter could've given voldemort the note and the story procceeds as normal
I like the idea of this kind of video. May I humbly suggest for the next one... What if Snape didn't hate Harry and was actually an ally to him?
Under what circumstances would that happen? Snape hating James was a pretty big thing, and Snape never being able to let a single thing go ever, ever, ever is also a pretty major part of his character. So Snape would always hate Harry for looking like James