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Hey Ryan, love your videos and thank you for the Cerebral sponsor for it month ❤️ very appropriate. Just one question. Are Wanda and The Scarlet Witch the same person? In WandaVision, she is revealed to be the Scarlet Witch but is that only for the 616 because other Wanda's didn't have the tiara and in 616's mind, Wanda and the Witch were separated. Just curious, fun thing to think about.
The demons attacked strange because the body he was walking in was dead not because he was using the dark hold as stated by those demons it's not allowed to dream walk in a dead body
The Darkhold tricking Scarlet Witch into 'Rescuing' her children reminds me of Shang Chi's father trying to find Shang Chi's mother, who was also seemingly calling for help from another dimension. Both of these were tricks by a dark deity trying to make them open gateways.
@@Cyrus-rodn45 oh wow so killing pretty much everyone in the Illuminati at ones is still not enough? In terms of power level in the mcu Wanda is the most powerfull one so far
@@Cyrus-rodn45 they literally said Illuminati Dr Strange caused an entire universe to be annihilated by dream-walking using the darkhold, what are you going on about. They depicted its power
@@cyberssasin1575 but the darkhold force him to do that? No it didn't.... only in the comics does it depict the dark hold will corrupt u if u read too far and you become a servant to it. The movie said u are corrupted. It could've depicted that Wanda hears voices while using the book, so as to show that there was someone speaking to her thru the book , it could've been telling to do what was must to get her children
@@Cyrus-rodn45 I'd say a major weakness of Dr Strange 2 is how 1 Dimensional they make Scarlet Witch. It's kind of the same mistake X-Men keep making with Phoenix: rather than show a complex character of the original human getting slowly deluded and corrupted by the Otherworldly Force they are merging with we go straight from relatable-but-misguided-Wanda to Full On Super Evil Baddy. They pull this back finally at the end, but that ALSO becomes unconvincing, as we have Complete Face-Heel Turn at the start then Complete Heel-Face Turn at the end. It's a shame, as in Spiderman 1 and 2 Raimi managed to do convincing conflicted complex villains.
Wanda couldn't 'dreamwalk' into the universe where the kids were orphans because there was no 'Wanda' to dreamwalk into.... unless she inhabits Wanda's corpse, which likely wouldn't be accepted too well by the kids.
That's probably why she originally needed America, to physically enter the universes where she wasn't living in. And as the Darkhold took her over, she wanted to steal America's power instead.
I just caught at Easter egg/plot detail I haven't seen anyone point out. When the book of Ashanti falls open and starts to burn, Strange looks at it and sees a star. The book was supposed to give them whatever they needed to defeat the enemy. So it showed him that America was already what he needed to defeat the Scarlet Witch. Nice little touch that I definitely missed the first time around.
The Star is also the symbol of the Twelfth Planet. It meant beginnings in Assyrian culture. Later it became the Star of David. So Kingship was being handed to Dr. Steven Strange.
I think we're going to have to accept in the future that just because there's an infinite multiverse, doesn't mean people in the mcu who *say* they've checked every universe are right. The simplest and most likely answer is that Wanda didn't check every universe for her kids, and if she had she would eventually have found one where they were orphans and needed her; similarly, evil strange didn't actually check *every* universe for christine, and would eventually have found one where they were together. Even 616 Dr Strange had to stop at 14 million possible outcomes in Infinity War, because his brain was breaking - that doesn't mean there weren't actually infinite possibilities, it just means there comes a point where its impossible for even these super beings to check everything, for the same reason that's its impossible to count to infinity, no matter how fast you go or how long you try
An easier explanation pointed out by another commenter is that the reason she can’t dream walk into a universe where her kids are orphans is because there’s no Wanda to dream walk into. She could dreamwalk into their dead mothers corpse but I can’t image they’ll like that too much
@@thesnackthatsmilesback6408 this explanation absolutely works, but i could counter that surely if she was that desperate she would still *try* to dreamwalk into a dead wanda at some point - her kids may not like it, but she could just spy on them secretly, and while she may be driven out by the souls of the damned, she would at least know that there is a universe where her kids are orphans; but in MoM she seems to never even consider the possibility. That explanation also doesn't explain why evil strange never found a universe where he's with Christine, even though in a infinite multiverse (as the mcu's multiverse has been stated to be), there mathematically *must* be one where they're together (in fact technically there's probably an infinite number). Finally, my point was not just about this movie in particular, but about the mcu as a whole and how we as fans dissect it going forward - yes we as fans can come up with an explanation for wanda here (likely covering the asses of a bunch of writers who never actually thought that far), but before long there'll probably be some multiverse shenanigans we can't find a good way to explain - at that point the fact that marvel's multiverse is infinite (unlike e.g. DC's post crisis) becomes a pretty useful get out of jail free card.
Vision definitely exists in some of the universes. But makes sense he was not in earth-838 as he couldn’t have been created. The ultron bots (presumingly made by reed richards) worked as they were supposed too, meaning they wouldn’t try to make the vision body. Feel his absence was thought on and adds to Wandas character because vision could’ve talked her down easier.
If vision doesn’t exist then how does Wanda have kids. I know vision is a robot so either way it makes no sense but where’s the father of the kids then? The more I think about it the less it makes sense
@@quackattack2421 that can’t be true thou bc if that was true then why wasn’t she able to just conjure up some new kids she had the dark hold she was the most powerful she’s ever been and if she couldn’t magically create kids somehow less powerful Wanda’s from other universes without the dark hold were able to do it? That just doesn’t add up to me
In wandavision they clearly show vision and Wanda go to bed and its implied they got frisky. The very next episode she is pregnant. Whether the children were conceived or not, they were created through Wanda and Vision's love and connection. She would have never created them without having the love they shared together. Vision is absolutely the father just as much as Wanda is their mother.
Now see, I thought maybe her "kids" shouting "Help!" back in 'Wandavision' was foreshadowing the moment she later scares the kids (in MoM), when she attacks "other" Wanda...if that makes sense 🤔 Fairly sure they were shouting for their mom in that moment, no?
This is reminding me of when people put the endings of Loki and Wandavision side by side and they synced perfectly. Wonder what would happen if people tried to put that scene side by side with the MoM one.
I also think it could just be the darkhold trying to tempt her similarly how Sideous used the nightmares of Padme and Anakins mom to help turn him to the darkside
One little misconception you have there Ryan. The "demons" weren't attacking Steven for the reason you say, in the movie they attack him because he dream walked into a dead body and apparently that's more forbidden than regular dream walking.
Makes you wonder though, demons can cross the multiverse? Or do the demon dimensions run parallel to other universes so they can pop in wherever they want? Because how did those demons know strange was dream walking in a dead body in another dimension since they seemed to attack his dead body and his living body at the same time.
@@Mike__B Eh, I think they're less "demons" and more . . . think of Black Flash in the Flash comics. He isn't a "demon" but he does come off as one and goes after evil Speedsters. So in this case, they went after Steven because he Dream Walked into a corpse since it's highly forbidden.
12:40 Actually no. The souls of the dammed only attacked strange initially because he was dream walking in his variant’s corpse, which according to the souls of the dammed was restricted 🚫 and if one chooses to do so.. they will suffer severe consequences. Note that Wanda was also dream walking but the variant of her was alive.. hence the souls of the dammed didn’t attacked her. Also remember Wong asked Strange at the end of the movie if he’s alright and when asked by Strange the reason of asking the question.. Wong said because you just dream walked into your own corpse.
@@KellyClement did you not watch the movie? Strange literally buried his alternate self when America fell into his universe along with the dead Strange
Couple thoughts: I think it's important to remember that the spell in Now Way Home only effects memory of Peter Parker, so it's not inconsistent for Strange to know he helped Spider-man, he just wouldn't connect it to Peter Parker. I think that if someone were to be asked point blank about Peter they would have a reaction similar to the cops outside Westview, they just wouldn't remember him or notice the gap in their memory. My other thought is I don't believe there is a Vision, or at least not one resembling anything like the one in 616, in 838. My reasoning for this based on a lot so I get it if TL;DR but here goes: First, he doesn't need to be around in order for Tommy and Billy to happen. The circumstances for Tommy and Billy's births in 616 are unique and both their and dad-Vision's bodies were made whole-cloth out of the hex magic so I don't think it's accurate to consider Vision their 'biological' father; though I do think of him as the Smizmar. Also Billy and Tommy's rapid aging seem to be a condition of the hex and being sitcom kids so if the 838 twins had a more traditional non-hex-dependent existence and aged at an average pace, I'd have to do the math but they were probably born somewhere between Age of Ultron and Civil War which predates Wanda and Vision's romantic relationship. Second, in AoU Banner lists the components of Vision's self: the mind stone, him, Jarvis, Tony and Ultron. In 838 we see Ultron as Tony intended him: an army of robots that were very non-genocide-y. It stands to reason in 838 the Ultron project did not result in daddy-issues-Spader Ultron, which means no him trying to evolve himself, no him making Vision's body and using the mind stone to do it. Further, in 838 there is a conspicuous lack of ANY mention of Iron Man or Tony. I think if Tony exists in 838 at all then he is very different from 616 Tony, likely never becoming Iron Man, because of Capt. Carter. I think it's reasonable to assume that 838 Carter's origin story is similar or identical to What If Carter's story. In that version of events Bucky never gets taken to become the Winter Soldier. It's possible then that Howard and his wife never get assassinated (or not in the way they do in 616). Also Tony has that line in Avengers about Howard talking about Steve all the time, I can't see Tony feeling as threatened by Howard's hero worship if it was about Peggy. So we have a Tony who didn't grow up insecure in Cap shadow, wasn't orphaned at 19 and even possibly Howard was around long enough to keep Obadiah from selling Stark tech to terrorists. Tony doesn't become Iron Man, possibly doesn't bother making Jarvis, doesn't make his version of Ultron. Three out of five aspects of Vision, plus the circumstances of his birth do not occur or occur in significantly different ways in 838; therefore no Vision in 838.
I think this is the most accurate description, however, notice how Wanda's counterpart didn't have powers either when she was taking her kids. So she would have had no powers to create them in that universe. I agree that 616's Wanda is unique in the creation methods, but I imagine Vision to be his human version of the Hex in other realities. Stil existing and able to reproduce with Wanda, but no Vision or Scarlet Witch, hence no Wiccan and Speed. I thought WandaVision season 2 was going to be straight after season 1, looking for her kids, finding out about the multiverse, finding her kids but losing track of herself and the damage she left behind and the new Vision reasoning with her. Now that he has all the memories and he 'is Vision', he still doesn't have the feelings attached to those memories. He would fall in love with Wanda again, which would pull her away from the Darkholds grip and they would have their kids WITH powers. But after watching Dr strange... That wont happen. Only thing I can imagine working is after Multiverse of Madness, the New Vision goes looking for his Wanda after a soulsearch and realises what she has done. In agreement with America Chavez and maybe some of the young avengers or new avengers, they go looking for a "good" Wanda because the Wanda he knows would never do this and could set things right. They find a reluctant Wanda in a different Universe who has these two kids of unknown origin since her universe doesn't have a Vision (only a human version like him, but no knowledge of the existence of Vision yet they have powers). They restore some of the damage done and the New Vision slowly becomes their father figure and Wanda's love interest, pulling Vision back to his original self but better. Either way, we won't know how or why but I feel like the secret wars is coming soon and Im all for it
@@Notaweebiswear True, the movie never explicitly confirmed nor denied that 838 Wanda was also a powered superhero in her universe, but I'm inclined to think that she is because of her status as a Nexus being, plus just little things like the way 838 Wanda reacted to 616's abilities with no surprise or confusion, the Illuminati members talking to her with familiarity, plus the possibility the her body may need to have some magical ability in order for 616 Wanda to use magic within her so easily
@@izuna77 correct me if Im wrong, but didn't they say that because Wanda 616 is this universe's Nexus Being, she could wander other realities independently using magic and having limitless power. Not needing that universe's variant to be able to do magic, since she can just pull from her own source. Is it also confirmed that her kids were from 838, like the illuminati? I thought they said they killed that version of her, and the variant we see is not 838 but another version. But I agree being a Nexus Being, that's how she could cross over to beat up 838(?)'s Wanda and take her kids. Without major consequences and makes her a far bigger threat than a lot of things the MCU has seen so far. Im going again this Saturday to see what I missed, but it seems to me that they need to think carefully about season 2 of WandaVision or it might flop HARD
@@Notaweebiswear Oh maybe, I can't remember. They also have yet to clearly spell out (not that they need to) what a nexus being is and isn't in the MCU, leaving us to potentially confuse Nexus beings with their limitations in the comics. I'm mostly basing this off the assumption that I thought multiverse Wanda's necessarily have abilities in the comics so it's probably the same in the MCU (though I guess by now it's the MCMultiverse :P ) I don't remember them saying anything about 838 Wanda being killed, I'm fairly confident the Wanda that gets possessed, and her kids, are the 838 versions but I've only watched it once so far. Unrelated, with all the variants it's only a matter of time before we meet Wanda C-137, then what?! The writers do make things hard on themselves, not only are they racing close to inevitably crushing themselves under the weight of their own continuity but the rest of us nerds have no greater joy than pulling apart every ounce of continuity for inconsistencies! :D I try not to be too critical of the writers; I keep seeing reviews for Multiverse of Madness calling it 'almost' perfect/excellent, but with the tone of the review implying that's a failure. 95% is still an A. If I set out to write literally anything I'd be really pleased with myself for almost perfect!
10:45 I think that even though Wanda wanted to be with her kids, the darkhold made her want more power as well. When doctor strange asks her why wouldn’t she just let america transfer her to earth 838 she says that she wants her powers in case something goes wrong. To me that sounds like the darkhold used her motives to corrupt her and make her hungry for more power
tbh it checks out, maybe wanda knew about the spirits that attack you when you posses a dead body in another reality. that’s why she couldn’t dreamwalk to a reality where they’re orphans, and we know if she decides to go there it can cause an incursion
Sometimes it seems like some of these "we're big fans! Watch us for theories" channels to bother to actually watch the things they are creating theories about. There are several obvious mistakes in this video that are pretty clearly and directly explained in the movies and TV shows.
@@NekoMouser Ryan does his homework and then some, but sometimes you just miss a detail here and there. I wasn't trying to be contrarian with my question. I was truly asking because I had forgotten.
The spirits even said why they attacked stephen specifically. when they first appear they say "possessing a dead body is forbidden" . He knew this would happen too, that's why he gave Rachael McAdams a heads up about it. @13:40
I read a theory in one of these youtube threads that the reason there was no Vision in the 838 (I think that was the universe in the movie) is that Vision was created because Tony and Bruce were not successful in creating Ultron for it's intended use. Ultron created The Vision to transfer his consciousness in to. With the Ultron program working as intended in 838, Vision was never created.
That's true but it could also be that Vision does exist but was created differently. If Peter Parker be so varied, it makes sense that Vision could have been made by Reed as an extension of his Ultron program rather than to end it. Or Vision could even be fully human in that universe (hence able to father Wanda's children). Endless possibilities I suppose.
It was stated in an interview "We liked having that be a mystery. For some reason he's not in her world. I always thought of her as more of a domestic Wanda. They got divorced" So like, he existed but Wanda and him got divorced.
I feel like the timeline branches work a bit differently. I took the explanation in Loki to mean there were always multiple universes (before and also during Loki) and in most of those, Kang learned to travel from one to another, but in 616 Kang and the TVA pruned the branches so the other multiversal realities won't be able to get closer and cause an incursion. So, the multiverse has always existed, but travel to and from the 616 universe was only possible once it branched out - basically, the he who remains Kang pruned the timeline to isolate the universe to make sure his other versions wouldn't be able to conquer the 616 reality.
Exactly. I thought it was made quite clear that the multiverse always existed, but that the TVA basically isolated this one reality, or timeline, from the rest to prevent incursion, invasion, or unwanted contact. That's precisely what pruning was for, preventing a new little multiverse within this bubble of isolated reality, and therefore also preventing contact with the larger multiverse they'd successfully been isolated from. The multiverse wasn't "created" at the end of Loki, we were just plugged back into it, as it were.
Well put! The "Sacred Timeline" has branches, but they were braided like a rope. Other universes within the larger Multiverse are not braided, and after Loki, neither is the main universe we've been following. So should we start calling it the MCM instead of the MCU?
I feel like she heard her kids saying, “mom, help!” at the end of Wanda vision as a foreshadowing of the moment she realized the monster she’d become in MoM. That’s an easy one. I’m pretty sure those kids say those exact words at one point.
Yes, this! Ryan and others have been complaining about this, but it is absolutely consistent with Wandavision. Stop hating on the plot. It's actually pretty solid
And Wanda is a “kidnapper” because Strange ended up at 838 with America where there was already a Wanda variant (necessary for her dreamwalking). For all we know, once Wanda acquired America’s ability she would have sought out her orphaned children variants. Her timeline was moved up when Strange ended up as America’s de facto guardian. I don’t think there was any guarantee that Wanda intended to stay in 838. Especially since she wreaked so much havoc killing the Illuminati. Once able to traverse the multiverse she could have found an ideal parallel universe with orphaned Billy and Tommy where there were no super-powered threats. Or, one where Vision is a single dad. America was a minor obstacle in the grand scheme of things due to Wanda’s grief, obsession, and corruption.
The souls of the damned didn’t attack strange for using the book. they attacked him for dream walking into a dead body he’s says protect my body while I’m dream walking because the souls don’t like the living messing with the dead If the souls just messed with who ever uses the book there wouldn’t be a evil strange and the 873 strange would have been attacked too
10:49 I think the reason she didn't think about this is because the Darkhold didn't let her. In the movie Wanda says that she has seen infinite universe out there where she has her children. If she was just using a spell to look at other universes she may have seen universes where Billy and Tommy where orphans, but she is using the Darkhold. I think the Darkhold has some form of sentience, just like Tom Riddle's diary. It only allowed her to see other Wandas who are happy. This turns Wanda to jealousy, causing her to dreamwalk and cause incursions which will feed Kathon if Ryan is right about that part. This could also be what happened to sinister Strange but instead of Wanda with kids, it's Stephens with Kristine Palmer, turning him into a jealous person who went around killing people cause they had something he didn't.
You made a great connection there with the Darkhold having sentience and comparing it's similarity to Tom Riddle's diary from Harry Potter, because in the comics- the Darkhold plays a similar role as Voldemort and Tom Riddle's Diary. I'll be brief, but in the comics there is a powerful being (an Elder God) called Chthon that before being banished from Earth into another dimension (The Dark Dimension), he was able to retain connection to Earth by creating the original Darkhold (the giant stone building that Wanda destroys in the MCU in MoM. The Darkhold contains his spells and enchantments. In the comics, the Darkhold is notorious for time and time again, corrupting those who read and used it (as then Chthon could essentially bargain for their soul or possess them kinda).
11:08 Maybe Billy and Tommy calling out for help was actually them calling for their real mother when Scarlet Witch attacks to try to kidnap them. That would be a fun twist
Those ghosts/phantasms attacked him because he was violating rules, he wasn't allowed to dream walk through a dead body. They were very specific about that to the point of outright saying it, it wasn't because he was "resisting the darkholds control".
@@SwagSenseiSam In a movie with a "deus ex machina book" that literally gives the sorcerer "whatever they need to defeat their enemy" I didn't bother questioning it.
I think I am hearing their's opportunity in plain view why not take advantage? Or there's a need for assistance, it presents itself? Yes that's cool in every normal aspect of society, the stuff in the multi verse is in most case's good trickery, if lucky, something learned from the experience, the actual more likely out comes I'd rather not think about it to hard.
21:00 there’s also the fact the What if Dr Stranges fix point is Christine dying but 616s is his crash. So I think it’s possible that each universe has different “1 possible way to defeat Thanos”
I’d just like to put it out there: Her kids’ cries for help at the end of WandaVision could’ve been a manipulation of the Darkhold, but it could also have been an echo of how her kids screamed for 838 Wanda when 616 Wanda showed up.
The magic-canceling cuffs fully stops his magic. When he slaps the open cuff on Mordo, the sword in Mordo's OTHER hand stopped working. Just a quick observation. A bunch of others have already pointed out the reason for the demons attacking Strange.
the fact that Doctor Strange 2 revealed that our dreams are actually reality in another universe that makes for so many interesting theories throughout the history of the MCU.
I don't know if the fact that the Darkhold was in both Agents of SHIELD and Runaways proves that they exist in other universes. If anything, I feel that it pulls them back into the main MCU universe. They revealed in this movie that the Darkhold was a copy produced from the carvings on Wundagore. Who's to say that only one copy exists in each universe? If one copy can be produced, surely there can be more.
As it was a “copy” I believe that the one in The Runaways and the one from Agents of Shield were both also real (copies) and they’ve now been destroyed too.
4:12 The TVA is not universal or multiversal, it only applies to the “sacred timeline” aka earth 616’s universe. What Kang was doing was obscuring or hiding universe-616 from the rest, and thus keeping it safe from incursions. 10:02 I think Wanda-616’s difference from the other Wanda’s is the loss of her family from the flashback in WandaVision (I think, we’re their apartment gets hit by a Stark bomb). So Wanda-616 is the unstable crazy one that eventually fell in love with Vision, the rest still have their mom, dad, and brother. As far as we know, Sokovia only gets screwed in universe-616, so the other Wanda’s come from stable backgrounds.
re 4:12 i wish this was clearer because i think that He Who Remains was actually the only variant of himself in the whole multiverse, hence the title. as in he killed all the other ones and ended other universes and was able to keep these universes that he was able to manage. he had that dark cloud at the edge of time which he invented or tampered with or whatever in his favour. like universe 616 isn't all of those timelines combined. one timeline = one universe. the thing is that the other universes could still have found his if those other ones don't have their own TVA and branched off randomly. there's no way those wouldn't get to him and because there are an infinite amount, a multiversal war would still keep happening i wish we can find out more for these to make sense (at least for me).. but i doubt they'll make it clearer because this could create more loopholes with other shows/movies they've already put out
i dont think that the other wandas still have their parents, or at least the 838 version likely doesnt. in that universe wanda still has her chaos magic that she obtained from the mind stone when she volunteered for the hydra experiments, which was caused by her losing her parents to stark's weapons that were being used against her country
@@cloverlove1212 that's a good catch. it could also be possible that her father in that timeline is magneto (just even the parent who raised her or however it went in the comics) the appearance of prof xavier made me think of it as a possibility
But Sylvie's universe wasn't 616 and she was too pruned. And this all goes for Classic Loki and all other variants. They were not harming 616 universe in any ways.
You guys are awesome, but a "plot hole" is an inconsistancy in the narrative or a character. I don't think any of those examples were "plot holes". If a reader doesn't get something, that doesn't indicate a plot hole. This term gets misused all the time and it makes having these discussions a little more difficult. Keep up the great work!
Loki created so many plot holes dude…also remember the main universe is literally missing infinity stones…the ancient one said it’s catastrophic, one minute they are strongest the next paper weights….that’s garbage writing…
@@Skabanis Infinity Stones are only "paperweights" in the TVA because they don't work outside their own Universe. The TVA exists outside Space and Time, therefore the Stones are just cool looking rocks.
@@austincarlson9270 According to the writers Infinity Ultron found a clever workaround. Since he's made of material from his universe he can use the Stones to augment HIMSELF but not the materials from the Universes he invades.
I appreciate actual discussion like this. It’s fun. Actually using your brain to try and figure things out instead of feverishly finding plot holes and chocking it up to bad writing in a sad effort to make it seem like you outsmarted the writers.
The "Sacred Timeline" doesn't actually require a single timeline, the TVA's technology only detects universal branches wherein a multiverse travelling being could challenge Kang (or whatever they call him on the show). Why would Kang put in effort to prune all those universes where everyone just stays put in their own universe/timeline?
*THIS!* I don't know why it's so difficult to understand.. there's always been a multiverse. He Who Remains' TVA was build to *isolate* his chosen branches to prevent a Kang from existing.
I thought the dead souls/demons fought back at Dr. Strange b/c he was dreamwalking through a dead body, rather than someone who was alive? Could be wrong tho, and great video nonetheless!
The poor soul had been seemingly chosen by the night but ,fate had external karma interacting in fractional spheres of multiple impressions and redirects, ultimately the fool decided to like black widow, sacrifice herself for the soul stone
I think the Darkhold shows her no Universe where Wanda is dead and her children are Orphans. These Universes may exist, but it wouldn't push forward the Darkhold's Agenda
also in order to dreamwalk you need a version of yourself in that universe so assuming she's buried in the universe/s she's dead in she would only see darkness in those universes and not travel there
11:15 The kids screaming for help. Was a trick from the dark hold. To trick Wanda to believe there was a version of her kids who needed her help. That got wanda to invest more of herself in the book and loose reality of the evil mission she was on
It could be even more sinister and those voices were her kids... except they were pleading to be saved from The Scarlet Witch which is precisely what Wanda is forced to confront in the movie.
Absolutely that is possible, that it was just a trick or like the other person said it was them in danger from her. Another possibility in an infinite multiverse is that there really are two orphans out their looking for her help. However, the book corrupted her so much she wasn’t thinking clearly.
QUESTION: So is the reason the boys were growing so fast in the HEX was because they were trying to catch up to their proper age in other Time line she was seeing them in!?
Could be an interesting additional reason as to why they aged up, tho Wanda could have also been looking for them at that age in alternate realities, not every reality would necc follow the same flow of time as hers for Earth 616, love that they mention the numbering method for universes too. But I get your point too so interesting, can't wait for them to incorporate Loki. Really looking forward to them explaining the multiple realizations when diff characters became aware of the multiverse. Mb they'll do that in S2 of Loki
In an infinite multiverse, it could also take an infinite amount of time to find a specific universe. Unless Wanda is immortal, she may never actually find the perfect universe for her. So she would have to pick the best universe that she can find given the amount of time she has. It's like how Strange saw one possible outcome out of 14 million where they win. Well, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes, maybe outcome # 15 million or # 10 trillion will be better than the one he chose but he didn't have the time to look into every outcome.
There cannot be infinite universes bcoz if there were, then the region where all the multiuniverses meet/intersect[The place where book of vishanti resides] would be crowded with many universes leading to the book of vishanti, making it hard for doctor strange to even walk there.
About Wanda going to a reality in which her kids are orphans, she wouldn't be able to know about its existence since there would not be a version of her to dream walk into or to dream about.
She could find one. The Illumanati were keeping tabs on all universes, maybe Wanda could've just asked them about a universe where her children were orphans.
Beating that, if she asked America nicely to help her find her children and to search for a reality where her variant is dead and her kids were orphans, that would've made things easier rather than sending demons to attack her.
“Mom, help!” Was the kids yelling out to their real mom, Wanda, when Scarlet Witch was attacking like at the end of Multiverse of Madness. There were not yelling out to MCU Wanda through a different universe.
I find it hard to believe that it takes so much power constantly to fix his hands. He can transform black holes into butterflies but he cants fix his hands & still be a powerful sorcerer at the same time
I thought the film made it pretty clear that the spirits attacked Strange because he was possessing a dead body. He used dreamwalking to do it, yes, but they had an issue with the possession of a dead body.
Quite literally many people have had interactions/ crossed paths without having a clue that they had been visited ,one time a traveler had told me about a couple who literally had "been stowaway" for a year and a half, they went on to get endorsement from one of the Kardashians not lying 😳
What was very interesting was the star on the book of of Vishanti when it was destroyed that mirrored the presentation of America's power. Then Dr. Stranges later assertion that her power took her exactly where she needed to be. Very similar to the Vishanti's supposed power.
I think the best way to understand timelines/universes, and the implications from both Loki and MoM, is by assuming Kang's perfect timeline (even his castle that's outside of the timeline), is all universe 616. He's keeping it locked tight from other universes (universes that exist differently to the perfect timeline/universe, to avoid Kang from invading it)
MAN you gotta give credit to the editors of this video! The cuts at 11:26 showing the different stages Wanda goes through of being controlled by Chthon are great. Really great work goes into these videos.
Yeah, this dude missed some obvious plot points. Without America's power Wanda can't go into alternate universes, she can only Dreamwalk into other Wandas. That means any universe with her kids orphaned - inherently lacking a Wanda - is outside of her ability to access.
@@whitewatersflame They can easily sit down and talk and properly teach America how to use her powers with typical training. She was reasonable at the start of the movie, didn't start completely corrupted and insane.
12:40 "When Steven used it to dream walk, the souls of the damned trapped inside the book attacked him." I thought they said it was specifically because he was inhabiting a dead body and thus was trespassing as the dead body belongs to the dead, not the living. Hmmm...
Note that cereral is not to be confused with the x-men mutant finding machine cerbro they are 2 totally different things and should not be confused with each other
So i recently rewatched the first Dr Strange and Mordo said that the rings they use to get around “lets us travel the multiverse” so how does that work and if it does let them travel the multiverse does Wanda really need America??
They could do some very interesting things with Strange's established idetic memory, in my opinion. Would spells he remembers from the Darkhold still bear Chthon's influence if he wasn't casting them directly from the Darkhold?
Wanda's motivation make perfect sense. Can we stop with this whole idea that villains, especially female villains, need to be innocents who aren't in control when they do evil and are actually victims? That's what pissed me off at the end of Wandavison, trying to act like she made a sacrifice by releasing people she enslaved and tortured. Or that they somehow had good intentions the entire time?
@@FireJach I think that maybe the darkhold is doing the same thing as the dragon from Shang chi- it’s basically corrupting her mind and making think irrationally and making her think she needs to do what she is doing to get what she wants
I think they make it pretty clear in the film the reason the souls of the damned attack Dr Strange is because he dreamwalks into a CORPSE of himself, which is kind of like a reverse exorcism, and clearly a violation of whatever rules the souls follow.
I‘ll have to disagree on the hands thing, I really appreciated how right the movie got the whole „magic handcuff“ thing since it’s clear that neither of them can use any magic as soon as they have one cuff on, since dr strange 1 made it really clear that magic is not about your hands (prime example being the sorcerer with no hand), so having that sand in handcuffs wasn’t to block each hand separately, but rather a convenient way to put it on him and physically restrain him at the same time. To how he could use his hand I’d just say he’s put enough magic into them over the years to at least kind of heal them
Mysterio, having no real knowledge of the multiverse, says that he’s from Earth 616 in Far From Home, which, of course, was a total lie. So, I guess that was just a wild coincidence.
or Christine is so good at her job that she went along with how Mysterio had probably popularised it within Strange's universe lol; if she knew Strange was from that specific universe, she must know how to observe different universes thus knowing about Mysterio due to his popularity pd: do u think she would see over the forgetting spell of Spiderman NWH btw?
I loved the movie, especially how it pulled from WandaVision and Loki. But here’s my concern for the MCU moving forward: There are presumably infinite versions of each character; the lack of scarcity makes big moments have less impact in my mind. Any character getting offed just ends that singular instance/variant of that character. There’s little to no consequence overall, just in that singular universe. Kill Thanos? Welp, there are infinite others to come. Everyone’s favorite hero gets cut in half? Meh, let’s see the others! Maybe I’m being irrational or just haven’t really taken to the Multiversal direction of the MCU (yet), but I need me some scarcity to make each character have importance.
Well the stakes for us as the audience is and will always be how 616 universe is effected and the characters in it. Though there is a new Gamora, I still perceive her as a different character entirely. She hasn't had the same history with The Guardians as the original Gamora. Plus I assume she will return to her timeline at some point. Same with 616 Strange when he is in danger we feel more gripped by the story, we weren't supposed to feel that way about any other Stranges in that movie.
@@vanillawafer1182 that’s a good point. They’ll likely need to anchor to “our” universe that we’re familiar with. I don’t have the comic book knowledge of how this pans out, but I feel like there are more and more characters coming that can hop between universes, and those lines get blurred for me. I’m keeping an open mind, because I love the marvel movies and series, but I’m admittedly a little afraid that my middle-aged brain is going to lose interest if it goes too “out there”. (And yes, I am fully anticipating someone posting the old man yelling at clouds meme)
I’m guessing they’ll close the multiverse thing and return to an acceptable status quo similar to before the events of Loki, maybe at the end of this or the next phase with the events of secret wars. Can’t be closing incursion events forever. Each phase has a big baddie and a big team up movie. Maybe the multiverse thing will last for three phases similar to Thanos. We could get a team up film soon with the young avengers then house of m then secret wars. Can’t do it forever especially since it’s a negative plot point that needs to be stopped and teases a villain not just “oh hey this is awesome this is so cool.”
What you're describing was true in the comic books that this middle age man read as a kid. Characters kept coming back after getting replaced by alternate timeline versions, future versions, clones, mystical spirit replacements, etc. I realize that in that business, cranking out new characters every month would be impossible, but then maybe don't always go for the "death-but-not-really" ending all the time. "The Death of Jean Grey" in the X-Men was game changing and shattering, at least until they said "psyche!" a couple decades later and then killed and brought her back a few more times just for effect... With Star Wars under the same roof, we've also seen that getting cut in half, getting thrown down a bottomless pit while lightning yourself to death, etc, aren't enough to kill you for keeps, and if you're a fan favorite, your ghost can hang out with all the others in perpetuity. There must just be some natural urge among writers to undo any death they've written previously, just to have that character back in their toybox again.
The question about why can't Wanda recreate her kids is very good and it shows the gigantic damage the film did to Wanda's character progression coming out of Wandavision. Wanda wasn't forced to let the kids or Vision go at the end of Wandavision, she chose to let them go because they are not real. In the post-credit scene she is given a vision that not only are they real but they are crying for help. She wasn't supposed to be on some universe hopping rampage trying to steal other Wanda's children. She was supposed to be trying to rescue her own.
@@doodlekid9864 Definitely. And it would have made sense if they expressly showed that (like Shang-Chi's dad was being tricked into thinking his wife was calling). But even so, she would just be tricked into going on a rescue mission, not into stealing people's kids.
@@joelhenry5489 You're trying to find logic in what's a dark energy corruption that makes people go mad, Wanda literally can't see reason in the movie and her actions are only moved by her wanting her kids back for selfish reasons. She even made up mantras ("I'm not a monster, i'm a mother!") and whenever she's faced with alternatives she shuts them down, again proving how she isn't thinking logically anymore and is moved purely by feelings (corrupted by the darkhold) and the only reason she stops is not because of the damage she cause or the people she killed or any of that, she only stops because the kids are afraid of her and can't see her as their mother. TL;DR: It's just an allegory for the mother that loves her kids so much she's willing to do bad things for their sake, against all reason and logic (though in this case "magic corruption" and mental instability also play a role)
Multiverse and alternate timelines explained as trees: A tree in this example is one universe. The trunk and largest branch being the main timeline of that tree. Branches are alternate timelines of that tree. (From each branch you get other branches) other universes would be other trees. When trees branches from different trees grow into each other you get incursions. If big enough it threatens both trees. In Loki the focus was keeping timelines from colliding (by trimming branches) In dr strange it’s prevented by destroying a whole other tree or branches to keep different trees from colliding.
You brushed off a question neatly, Dr. Strange at the beginning of the movie summoned powers of strong magical creatures and used to fight off the one eyed monster, where did he get them from?
I posit that the reason Wanda can't just become the mom of orphan Bill and Tommy is because there simply is no reality where they exist without her. If in these other versions of them they exist because of her magic then if she dies, they die
There's a video here on YT, called "imagine the 10th dimension", I really suggest everyone to go and watch it, it explains a theory about dimensions, different timeliness and different universes (multiverse), it's mind blowing and might take a couple watches before you get the henge of it but it kinda helps me understand the madness of the multiverse
absolutely loved Ashantis pic on the book of the vishanti..between your knowledge of life..that dog and your humor..you are by far one of my favorites on youtube..keep up this amazing work!
I think that when it came to defeating thanos he saw multiple versions where they won but the loss of life in each of those were greater or even on an extinction level thus he went with the one where on 2 died versus thousands or even millions
There's a perfectly logical explanation for why Wanda doesn't search for a universe where her kids are orphaned: she wouldn't be able to dreamwalk into a universe that didn't have a living Wanda. Strange was only able to dreamwalk into Defender Strange's body because he knew where it was and it hadn't decayed too badly. But Wanda would have no way of knowing anything about the universes where her alternates had died. She could only work with what she could see
So a question I had right after the movie, if all the dreams are visions from different universes, what about lucid dreaming where the person who is dreaming can control their own dreams. What could be the explanation for that?
Not all dreams. Dreams are just a window to our multiverse selves. Like how rivers lead to mountains but not all rivers. Same way, dreams can show you glimpses of other universes, but not all of them will be multiversal visions. Now, America Chavez does say that she never dreams because there is only one of her and she doesn't have any variants. But she herself doesn't understand her powers yet, so she is just speculating like us. Maybe people of the Utopian Parallel don't dream in general, and has nothing to do with her not having any variants. Like how not having mountains does not mean that there will be no rivers. Maybe there are no rivers because it's just a desert.
I would like to see the changes that Black Widow brought to that universe in What If. She went to another universe before Ultron happened with the knowledge that Ultron was gonna happen. That has got to make a huge impact and it also tells everybody in that universe that the multiverse is real which I imagine would cause a lot of changes that wouldn't have normally happened.
I've always considered the Multiverse to be 5th dimensional reality and the Omniverse to be 6th dimensional. Either way I didn't hear much in the way of plot holes, merely plot questions.
4:23 The problem for Slyvie universe wasn't that she was a "Woman", it was that she was going to be a "Good Loki" instead of evil. If the 616 Loki" Ever Turned Good Before Thor 1 or even the Avengers then it would have got pruned because he's not following He's who Remain Script for his lie of a "Sacred Timeline".
I also think He who remains knew Loki variants are tricky ones bc they will find a way to reach him. So he specifically targeted Lokis. But yeah Loki is the reason the Avengers has assembled and He who remains probably was born in future and whatever affects his birth he will keep an eye on them closer.
Also remember that wanda and strange had to look through all of these realities separately, so yes they could find an ultra specific universe with whatever specifications, but it would be exhausting and tedious
One of my first synchronicities was 616, and 606, I literally would see these numbers constantly repeating around me everywhere and yesterday I got to see this movie and Christine said she named this reality 616. Those who understand can imagine how mind-blown I am right now!!! There's so much esoteric knowledge revealed right now through movies like Doctor strange The matrix and old movies too like total recall, groundhog Day, wizard of Oz, it's just incredible.
Wanda is not a nexus being in the MCU: she dreams which means she is seeing variants in other universes. America Chavez, though, is likely a nexus being, since she doesn't dream and has never found any variants of herself.
@@gr8tbigtreehugger Actually nexus beings have their variants, A nexus being is not someone who's only one person in the whole Multiverse,but an important person of an universe who can affect the flow of time in their reality plus some other things.
I really enjoyed parts of Doctor Strange MOM, but thought that Wanda's motivations couldve been changed. Like maybe if she was searching for her kids, like they were trapped (as we heard in the post credits scene of WV). And she would still be doing something wrong so Strange could still fight her and everything, and she could even still take over the 838 Wanda, and just have a scene of her telling herself that she will have "her" kids back. Just change the finale to America being attacked by Wanda, and America opening a portal to the 838 kids. They get scared and confused seeing who they think is their mother attacking someone. Something like her seeing them scared and then her telling herself "I am a monster." then destroying the temple and the rest is the same.
Precisely what I've been thinking for the whole film, esp the siege of Kamar-Taj scene: where the hell is Shang-Chi?? If they're friends now with Wong and he needs help, doesn't he have to be here now? He'd also be a great help.
The biggest problem I had with the movie is that Wong (allegedly Sorceror Supreme) is significantly under-powered when compared with Strange. This despite having access to books and therefore arcane knowledge that Strange has yet to see. There is no reasonable explanation other than that Wong is undeserving of the title and will lose it at some point.
Wong became sorcerer Supreme because strange was dusted bruh learn to watch movie if strange wasn't dusted then he could've been and ancient one said strange was meant to be the best of them 😐
It's just like in real life give two people a set of tools and one is always going to be able to do more with them whether it be higher intellect or just more highly skilled. Strange is no doubt the better sorcerer than Wong. He was doing spells that no apprentice should have been able to do. Strange will become a sorcerer supreme there is no doubting that. Though I do love me some Wong!!!!
@@thatomanaka323 I know why Wong got the role but Sorceror Supreme isn't just some honorary title. It's a role which requires the person in that role be able to do many things to protect the multiverse. Wong isn't powerful enough. He is clearly only in the role because the person who should have it wasn't there. He especially should be prepared to step down rather than continually make the point to Strange that he deserves respect now that he has the title. Think what Wong accomplished during the movie. Oh wait he basically didn't accomplish much.
@@BeyondOrdinary strange started doing magic in 2016 and infinity war takes place in 2018 he got blibbed and came back 5 years later and They said MOM takes place 2 years after endgame so the guy known how to use magic for 4 years he is smart but still lack experience idk if u watch Naruto but Kakashi became hokage before Naruto not because of power but he had more experience than Naruto even though Naruto was the most powerful its all about experience
Reed is also a chronic sufferer of "Smartest Guy in the Room Syndrome". He's so damned smart, it's inconceivable to him that anyone could be nearly as smart or clever as him. We see him do stuff like that in the comics all the time that shows his hubris. Like that one time he got mad at Hank Pym in an argument, and told the man who discovered/invented Pym Particles, that he knew more about the subject than him. Only a massive narcissist like Reed would tell this ultimate evil entity with nearly unlimited power how they can instantly take her out.
Or maybe it was a body double like Victor Von Doom's clones. It looks like Reed used Doom's tech to teleport in his introduction too, so... it just wasn't him. The real Reed was eating pizza balls with his family.
Strange saw only 14 million possible realities, he said. That's a very small number (compared to infinity), so I have no problem with the notion that he simply didn't see the 838 universe. Also I'm not yet convinced that "different universes," "different realities" and "different timelines" are necessarily the same thing. Based on what I've seen in the MCU, it sure seems like the same universe can have multiple timelines, and it's all one universe.
I just found your channel and I love it. Every video is so well thought out and so well informed and intelligent. 1 more subscriber. (P.S. Loved the "Welcome to the layer cake" reference.) 👍
Also, Steven didn't use the time stone to look into alternate realities which it cannot do. Instead, he used it to look into possible futures for just the 616 universe alone. The infinity stones do not have the ability to traverse the multiverse.
Almost 100% brilliant. You suggest that dream walking by itself can cause a threat to reality, however. This seems unlikely since rare individuals in our reality can dream-walk to some degree, with no bad effects.
Actually a counterargument to Wanda not adopting adopting her children being orphaned in another universe is actually self explanatory. If they are orphaned it pretty much stands to reason that she can't access those universes due probably not being able to dream walk in them. If that was her motivation, she would still need Chavez's power to enter them anyway.
it makes sense too that there is only book of Vishanti because it exists or is kept in that location that is like the multiverse hub, it isn't actually inside any one universe but in between many.
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How does doctor strangest appearance change in the paint/cube universes but not in any others????
i really want to know why dr. strange didn’t use the mirror dimension
Good partnership :)
Any other nerds laugh with the name cerebral and think X-men soon as he said it 🤣
Hey Ryan, love your videos and thank you for the Cerebral sponsor for it month ❤️ very appropriate. Just one question.
Are Wanda and The Scarlet Witch the same person? In WandaVision, she is revealed to be the Scarlet Witch but is that only for the 616 because other Wanda's didn't have the tiara and in 616's mind, Wanda and the Witch were separated.
Just curious, fun thing to think about.
The demons attacked strange because the body he was walking in was dead not because he was using the dark hold as stated by those demons it's not allowed to dream walk in a dead body
I'm glad I'm the not the only one who noticed that, after Ryan answered the question I thought I was imagining things!
Correct
‘You can’t possess the dead’
I was about to comment this. Good job!
Yeah they even said that what he was doing with Defender Strange was forbidden even asking Christine to protect his body from the souls of the damned.
The Darkhold tricking Scarlet Witch into 'Rescuing' her children reminds me of Shang Chi's father trying to find Shang Chi's mother, who was also seemingly calling for help from another dimension. Both of these were tricks by a dark deity trying to make them open gateways.
The darkhold didn't trick Wanda...... they really messed up how powerful the darkhold is..... they shouldve shown and depicted its corruption
@@Cyrus-rodn45 oh wow so killing pretty much everyone in the Illuminati at ones is still not enough? In terms of power level in the mcu Wanda is the most powerfull one so far
@@Cyrus-rodn45 they literally said Illuminati Dr Strange caused an entire universe to be annihilated by dream-walking using the darkhold, what are you going on about. They depicted its power
@@cyberssasin1575 but the darkhold force him to do that? No it didn't.... only in the comics does it depict the dark hold will corrupt u if u read too far and you become a servant to it. The movie said u are corrupted. It could've depicted that Wanda hears voices while using the book, so as to show that there was someone speaking to her thru the book , it could've been telling to do what was must to get her children
@@Cyrus-rodn45 I'd say a major weakness of Dr Strange 2 is how 1 Dimensional they make Scarlet Witch. It's kind of the same mistake X-Men keep making with Phoenix: rather than show a complex character of the original human getting slowly deluded and corrupted by the Otherworldly Force they are merging with we go straight from relatable-but-misguided-Wanda to Full On Super Evil Baddy. They pull this back finally at the end, but that ALSO becomes unconvincing, as we have Complete Face-Heel Turn at the start then Complete Heel-Face Turn at the end.
It's a shame, as in Spiderman 1 and 2 Raimi managed to do convincing conflicted complex villains.
Wanda couldn't 'dreamwalk' into the universe where the kids were orphans because there was no 'Wanda' to dreamwalk into.... unless she inhabits Wanda's corpse, which likely wouldn't be accepted too well by the kids.
oh my god that makes so much sense!
Also the damned were attacking strange cuz he was dream walking into a corpse.
She could travel there if she asked America nicely.
@@ciaran4135 but America didn’t know how to use her power yet.
That's probably why she originally needed America, to physically enter the universes where she wasn't living in. And as the Darkhold took her over, she wanted to steal America's power instead.
I just caught at Easter egg/plot detail I haven't seen anyone point out. When the book of Ashanti falls open and starts to burn, Strange looks at it and sees a star. The book was supposed to give them whatever they needed to defeat the enemy. So it showed him that America was already what he needed to defeat the Scarlet Witch. Nice little touch that I definitely missed the first time around.
You're totally right! I didn't realize that was the star's meaning
or proof that America is the New Atlantis that Linda Goodman talked about in her book, "Linda Goodman Starsigns."
The Star is also the symbol of the Twelfth Planet. It meant beginnings in Assyrian culture. Later it became the Star of David. So Kingship was being handed to Dr. Steven Strange.
@@KellyClement One problem with that timeline... David's reign was about 300 years before the Assyrians invaded Israel.
I saw that too
I think we're going to have to accept in the future that just because there's an infinite multiverse, doesn't mean people in the mcu who *say* they've checked every universe are right.
The simplest and most likely answer is that Wanda didn't check every universe for her kids, and if she had she would eventually have found one where they were orphans and needed her; similarly, evil strange didn't actually check *every* universe for christine, and would eventually have found one where they were together. Even 616 Dr Strange had to stop at 14 million possible outcomes in Infinity War, because his brain was breaking - that doesn't mean there weren't actually infinite possibilities, it just means there comes a point where its impossible for even these super beings to check everything, for the same reason that's its impossible to count to infinity, no matter how fast you go or how long you try
EXACTLY!
An easier explanation pointed out by another commenter is that the reason she can’t dream walk into a universe where her kids are orphans is because there’s no Wanda to dream walk into. She could dreamwalk into their dead mothers corpse but I can’t image they’ll like that too much
@@thesnackthatsmilesback6408 this explanation absolutely works, but i could counter that surely if she was that desperate she would still *try* to dreamwalk into a dead wanda at some point - her kids may not like it, but she could just spy on them secretly, and while she may be driven out by the souls of the damned, she would at least know that there is a universe where her kids are orphans; but in MoM she seems to never even consider the possibility.
That explanation also doesn't explain why evil strange never found a universe where he's with Christine, even though in a infinite multiverse (as the mcu's multiverse has been stated to be), there mathematically *must* be one where they're together (in fact technically there's probably an infinite number).
Finally, my point was not just about this movie in particular, but about the mcu as a whole and how we as fans dissect it going forward - yes we as fans can come up with an explanation for wanda here (likely covering the asses of a bunch of writers who never actually thought that far), but before long there'll probably be some multiverse shenanigans we can't find a good way to explain - at that point the fact that marvel's multiverse is infinite (unlike e.g. DC's post crisis) becomes a pretty useful get out of jail free card.
@@thesnackthatsmilesback6408 she'd get attacked if she did.
in every universe her kids became orphans, she would have been dead, obviously
Vision definitely exists in some of the universes. But makes sense he was not in earth-838 as he couldn’t have been created. The ultron bots (presumingly made by reed richards) worked as they were supposed too, meaning they wouldn’t try to make the vision body. Feel his absence was thought on and adds to Wandas character because vision could’ve talked her down easier.
If vision doesn’t exist then how does Wanda have kids. I know vision is a robot so either way it makes no sense but where’s the father of the kids then? The more I think about it the less it makes sense
@@notkyle9204 she literally created the children nobody conceived them they are literally made by her powers
@@quackattack2421 that can’t be true thou bc if that was true then why wasn’t she able to just conjure up some new kids she had the dark hold she was the most powerful she’s ever been and if she couldn’t magically create kids somehow less powerful Wanda’s from other universes without the dark hold were able to do it? That just doesn’t add up to me
In wandavision they clearly show vision and Wanda go to bed and its implied they got frisky. The very next episode she is pregnant. Whether the children were conceived or not, they were created through Wanda and Vision's love and connection. She would have never created them without having the love they shared together. Vision is absolutely the father just as much as Wanda is their mother.
@@notkyle9204 Anyone could be the father and Wanda a single mom.
Now see, I thought maybe her "kids" shouting "Help!" back in 'Wandavision' was foreshadowing the moment she later scares the kids (in MoM), when she attacks "other" Wanda...if that makes sense 🤔 Fairly sure they were shouting for their mom in that moment, no?
That would have been a nice touch. Definite missed opportunity.
That really makes sense.
I think it's more like the Darkhold tempting Wanda to use it even more and eventually corrupt her in the process.
This is reminding me of when people put the endings of Loki and Wandavision side by side and they synced perfectly. Wonder what would happen if people tried to put that scene side by side with the MoM one.
I also think it could just be the darkhold trying to tempt her similarly how Sideous used the nightmares of Padme and Anakins mom to help turn him to the darkside
One little misconception you have there Ryan. The "demons" weren't attacking Steven for the reason you say, in the movie they attack him because he dream walked into a dead body and apparently that's more forbidden than regular dream walking.
The demons even say that in the movie lol
Makes you wonder though, demons can cross the multiverse? Or do the demon dimensions run parallel to other universes so they can pop in wherever they want? Because how did those demons know strange was dream walking in a dead body in another dimension since they seemed to attack his dead body and his living body at the same time.
@@Mike__B Eh, I think they're less "demons" and more . . . think of Black Flash in the Flash comics. He isn't a "demon" but he does come off as one and goes after evil Speedsters. So in this case, they went after Steven because he Dream Walked into a corpse since it's highly forbidden.
Him being electrocuted in live action was cooler than the drawing of it in the comics.
@@Mike__B Maybe they are from where ever the Darkhold is from? Or inversely, trapped in the book guarding it? I am spit-balling though idak
12:40 Actually no. The souls of the dammed only attacked strange initially because he was dream walking in his variant’s corpse, which according to the souls of the dammed was restricted 🚫 and if one chooses to do so.. they will suffer severe consequences.
Note that Wanda was also dream walking but the variant of her was alive.. hence the souls of the dammed didn’t attacked her. Also remember Wong asked Strange at the end of the movie if he’s alright and when asked by Strange the reason of asking the question.. Wong said because you just dream walked into your own corpse.
So Steven Strange actually died in that car wreck he had. Gross Me out the Door!
@@KellyClement no?
@@KellyClement no his dead body was there from another strange from another universe that ended up in the main universe from the portal America opened
@@KellyClement did you not watch the movie? Strange literally buried his alternate self when America fell into his universe along with the dead Strange
@@lolkhars3525 Is that why his Third Eye opened and he had a Nervous Breakdown.
Couple thoughts: I think it's important to remember that the spell in Now Way Home only effects memory of Peter Parker, so it's not inconsistent for Strange to know he helped Spider-man, he just wouldn't connect it to Peter Parker. I think that if someone were to be asked point blank about Peter they would have a reaction similar to the cops outside Westview, they just wouldn't remember him or notice the gap in their memory. My other thought is I don't believe there is a Vision, or at least not one resembling anything like the one in 616, in 838. My reasoning for this based on a lot so I get it if TL;DR but here goes:
First, he doesn't need to be around in order for Tommy and Billy to happen. The circumstances for Tommy and Billy's births in 616 are unique and both their and dad-Vision's bodies were made whole-cloth out of the hex magic so I don't think it's accurate to consider Vision their 'biological' father; though I do think of him as the Smizmar. Also Billy and Tommy's rapid aging seem to be a condition of the hex and being sitcom kids so if the 838 twins had a more traditional non-hex-dependent existence and aged at an average pace, I'd have to do the math but they were probably born somewhere between Age of Ultron and Civil War which predates Wanda and Vision's romantic relationship. Second, in AoU Banner lists the components of Vision's self: the mind stone, him, Jarvis, Tony and Ultron. In 838 we see Ultron as Tony intended him: an army of robots that were very non-genocide-y. It stands to reason in 838 the Ultron project did not result in daddy-issues-Spader Ultron, which means no him trying to evolve himself, no him making Vision's body and using the mind stone to do it. Further, in 838 there is a conspicuous lack of ANY mention of Iron Man or Tony. I think if Tony exists in 838 at all then he is very different from 616 Tony, likely never becoming Iron Man, because of Capt. Carter. I think it's reasonable to assume that 838 Carter's origin story is similar or identical to What If Carter's story. In that version of events Bucky never gets taken to become the Winter Soldier. It's possible then that Howard and his wife never get assassinated (or not in the way they do in 616). Also Tony has that line in Avengers about Howard talking about Steve all the time, I can't see Tony feeling as threatened by Howard's hero worship if it was about Peggy. So we have a Tony who didn't grow up insecure in Cap shadow, wasn't orphaned at 19 and even possibly Howard was around long enough to keep Obadiah from selling Stark tech to terrorists. Tony doesn't become Iron Man, possibly doesn't bother making Jarvis, doesn't make his version of Ultron. Three out of five aspects of Vision, plus the circumstances of his birth do not occur or occur in significantly different ways in 838; therefore no Vision in 838.
I think this is the most accurate description, however, notice how Wanda's counterpart didn't have powers either when she was taking her kids. So she would have had no powers to create them in that universe.
I agree that 616's Wanda is unique in the creation methods, but I imagine Vision to be his human version of the Hex in other realities. Stil existing and able to reproduce with Wanda, but no Vision or Scarlet Witch, hence no Wiccan and Speed.
I thought WandaVision season 2 was going to be straight after season 1, looking for her kids, finding out about the multiverse, finding her kids but losing track of herself and the damage she left behind and the new Vision reasoning with her. Now that he has all the memories and he 'is Vision', he still doesn't have the feelings attached to those memories. He would fall in love with Wanda again, which would pull her away from the Darkholds grip and they would have their kids WITH powers. But after watching Dr strange... That wont happen.
Only thing I can imagine working is after Multiverse of Madness, the New Vision goes looking for his Wanda after a soulsearch and realises what she has done. In agreement with America Chavez and maybe some of the young avengers or new avengers, they go looking for a "good" Wanda because the Wanda he knows would never do this and could set things right. They find a reluctant Wanda in a different Universe who has these two kids of unknown origin since her universe doesn't have a Vision (only a human version like him, but no knowledge of the existence of Vision yet they have powers). They restore some of the damage done and the New Vision slowly becomes their father figure and Wanda's love interest, pulling Vision back to his original self but better.
Either way, we won't know how or why but I feel like the secret wars is coming soon and Im all for it
@@Notaweebiswear True, the movie never explicitly confirmed nor denied that 838 Wanda was also a powered superhero in her universe, but I'm inclined to think that she is because of her status as a Nexus being, plus just little things like the way 838 Wanda reacted to 616's abilities with no surprise or confusion, the Illuminati members talking to her with familiarity, plus the possibility the her body may need to have some magical ability in order for 616 Wanda to use magic within her so easily
@@izuna77 correct me if Im wrong, but didn't they say that because Wanda 616 is this universe's Nexus Being, she could wander other realities independently using magic and having limitless power. Not needing that universe's variant to be able to do magic, since she can just pull from her own source.
Is it also confirmed that her kids were from 838, like the illuminati? I thought they said they killed that version of her, and the variant we see is not 838 but another version.
But I agree being a Nexus Being, that's how she could cross over to beat up 838(?)'s Wanda and take her kids. Without major consequences and makes her a far bigger threat than a lot of things the MCU has seen so far.
Im going again this Saturday to see what I missed, but it seems to me that they need to think carefully about season 2 of WandaVision or it might flop HARD
@@Notaweebiswear Oh maybe, I can't remember. They also have yet to clearly spell out (not that they need to) what a nexus being is and isn't in the MCU, leaving us to potentially confuse Nexus beings with their limitations in the comics. I'm mostly basing this off the assumption that I thought multiverse Wanda's necessarily have abilities in the comics so it's probably the same in the MCU (though I guess by now it's the MCMultiverse :P )
I don't remember them saying anything about 838 Wanda being killed, I'm fairly confident the Wanda that gets possessed, and her kids, are the 838 versions but I've only watched it once so far. Unrelated, with all the variants it's only a matter of time before we meet Wanda C-137, then what?!
The writers do make things hard on themselves, not only are they racing close to inevitably crushing themselves under the weight of their own continuity but the rest of us nerds have no greater joy than pulling apart every ounce of continuity for inconsistencies! :D I try not to be too critical of the writers; I keep seeing reviews for Multiverse of Madness calling it 'almost' perfect/excellent, but with the tone of the review implying that's a failure. 95% is still an A. If I set out to write literally anything I'd be really pleased with myself for almost perfect!
The actor for Wanda said Vision does exists but isnt a part of the household in that universe, basically they got divorced.
10:45 I think that even though Wanda wanted to be with her kids, the darkhold made her want more power as well. When doctor strange asks her why wouldn’t she just let america transfer her to earth 838 she says that she wants her powers in case something goes wrong. To me that sounds like the darkhold used her motives to corrupt her and make her hungry for more power
gormnpt
tbh it checks out, maybe wanda knew about the spirits that attack you when you posses a dead body in another reality. that’s why she couldn’t dreamwalk to a reality where they’re orphans, and we know if she decides to go there it can cause an incursion
@@doinky4345 good point, I didn’t think of that
I thought Strange explained that the spirits of the dead were attacking him because he was dreamwalking in a dead body.
He did
Yes, exactly that.
Sometimes it seems like some of these "we're big fans! Watch us for theories" channels to bother to actually watch the things they are creating theories about. There are several obvious mistakes in this video that are pretty clearly and directly explained in the movies and TV shows.
@@NekoMouser Ryan does his homework and then some, but sometimes you just miss a detail here and there. I wasn't trying to be contrarian with my question. I was truly asking because I had forgotten.
The spirits even said why they attacked stephen specifically. when they first appear they say "possessing a dead body is forbidden" . He knew this would happen too, that's why he gave Rachael McAdams a heads up about it. @13:40
I read a theory in one of these youtube threads that the reason there was no Vision in the 838 (I think that was the universe in the movie) is that Vision was created because Tony and Bruce were not successful in creating Ultron for it's intended use. Ultron created The Vision to transfer his consciousness in to. With the Ultron program working as intended in 838, Vision was never created.
That's true but it could also be that Vision does exist but was created differently. If Peter Parker be so varied, it makes sense that Vision could have been made by Reed as an extension of his Ultron program rather than to end it. Or Vision could even be fully human in that universe (hence able to father Wanda's children). Endless possibilities I suppose.
bingo
It was stated in an interview "We liked having that be a mystery. For some reason he's not in her world. I always thought of her as more of a domestic Wanda. They got divorced" So like, he existed but Wanda and him got divorced.
I feel like the timeline branches work a bit differently. I took the explanation in Loki to mean there were always multiple universes (before and also during Loki) and in most of those, Kang learned to travel from one to another, but in 616 Kang and the TVA pruned the branches so the other multiversal realities won't be able to get closer and cause an incursion. So, the multiverse has always existed, but travel to and from the 616 universe was only possible once it branched out - basically, the he who remains Kang pruned the timeline to isolate the universe to make sure his other versions wouldn't be able to conquer the 616 reality.
Exactly. I thought it was made quite clear that the multiverse always existed, but that the TVA basically isolated this one reality, or timeline, from the rest to prevent incursion, invasion, or unwanted contact. That's precisely what pruning was for, preventing a new little multiverse within this bubble of isolated reality, and therefore also preventing contact with the larger multiverse they'd successfully been isolated from. The multiverse wasn't "created" at the end of Loki, we were just plugged back into it, as it were.
Well put!
The "Sacred Timeline" has branches, but they were braided like a rope. Other universes within the larger Multiverse are not braided, and after Loki, neither is the main universe we've been following.
So should we start calling it the MCM instead of the MCU?
I feel like she heard her kids saying, “mom, help!” at the end of Wanda vision as a foreshadowing of the moment she realized the monster she’d become in MoM. That’s an easy one. I’m pretty sure those kids say those exact words at one point.
Yup but not to her but their other mom. That’s so cool in hindsight
Yes, this! Ryan and others have been complaining about this, but it is absolutely consistent with Wandavision. Stop hating on the plot. It's actually pretty solid
or was MOM a form of Wanda as an ordinary human, and she has Schizophrenia?
And Wanda is a “kidnapper” because Strange ended up at 838 with America where there was already a Wanda variant (necessary for her dreamwalking). For all we know, once Wanda acquired America’s ability she would have sought out her orphaned children variants. Her timeline was moved up when Strange ended up as America’s de facto guardian. I don’t think there was any guarantee that Wanda intended to stay in 838. Especially since she wreaked so much havoc killing the Illuminati.
Once able to traverse the multiverse she could have found an ideal parallel universe with orphaned Billy and Tommy where there were no super-powered threats. Or, one where Vision is a single dad.
America was a minor obstacle in the grand scheme of things due to Wanda’s grief, obsession, and corruption.
The souls of the damned didn’t attack strange for using the book. they attacked him for dream walking into a dead body he’s says protect my body while I’m dream walking because the souls don’t like the living messing with the dead
If the souls just messed with who ever uses the book there wouldn’t be a evil strange and the 873 strange would have been attacked too
The only other question I have is how they were able to get that brutal scene for Black Bolt inside a pg 13 rating film lol
my question is how is this a pg 13 film not an r rated film
Well, Black Bolts death only had "implied" gore lol.
Add Xavier, Wanda didn't just snapped his neck, she ripped his head into two
The only question i have is how we never see his brain explode?
Bc most of the gruesomeness is implied or covered up under the mask
10:49 I think the reason she didn't think about this is because the Darkhold didn't let her. In the movie Wanda says that she has seen infinite universe out there where she has her children. If she was just using a spell to look at other universes she may have seen universes where Billy and Tommy where orphans, but she is using the Darkhold. I think the Darkhold has some form of sentience, just like Tom Riddle's diary. It only allowed her to see other Wandas who are happy. This turns Wanda to jealousy, causing her to dreamwalk and cause incursions which will feed Kathon if Ryan is right about that part.
This could also be what happened to sinister Strange but instead of Wanda with kids, it's Stephens with Kristine Palmer, turning him into a jealous person who went around killing people cause they had something he didn't.
geyackydtp
You made a great connection there with the Darkhold having sentience and comparing it's similarity to Tom Riddle's diary from Harry Potter, because in the comics- the Darkhold plays a similar role as Voldemort and Tom Riddle's Diary. I'll be brief, but in the comics there is a powerful being (an Elder God) called Chthon that before being banished from Earth into another dimension (The Dark Dimension), he was able to retain connection to Earth by creating the original Darkhold (the giant stone building that Wanda destroys in the MCU in MoM. The Darkhold contains his spells and enchantments. In the comics, the Darkhold is notorious for time and time again, corrupting those who read and used it (as then Chthon could essentially bargain for their soul or possess them kinda).
New fact : Mount Wundagore is actually named after Wanda... WUNDA refers to Wanda and GHAR in Hindi means HOME
Mount WandaHome. I like it.
11:08 Maybe Billy and Tommy calling out for help was actually them calling for their real mother when Scarlet Witch attacks to try to kidnap them. That would be a fun twist
That would have been great to see if they included it in Multiverse of Madness
Or its could've been a similar scenario as in Shang Chi when the darkness was calling his dad
Good one!
@@jahkeno8553 the darkhold manipulation
Yes that’s exactly what I was thinking
Those ghosts/phantasms attacked him because he was violating rules, he wasn't allowed to dream walk through a dead body. They were very specific about that to the point of outright saying it, it wasn't because he was "resisting the darkholds control".
Whos' rules was he violating though? That was my biggest question when I watched it.
@@SwagSenseiSam Probably Mephisto?
@@SwagSenseiSam In a movie with a "deus ex machina book" that literally gives the sorcerer "whatever they need to defeat their enemy" I didn't bother questioning it.
It's hard to come right out and say certain things in public so yeah that is one way of putting it.
I think I am hearing their's opportunity in plain view why not take advantage? Or there's a need for assistance, it presents itself? Yes that's cool in every normal aspect of society, the stuff in the multi verse is in most case's good trickery, if lucky, something learned from the experience, the actual more likely out comes I'd rather not think about it to hard.
21:00 there’s also the fact the What if Dr Stranges fix point is Christine dying but 616s is his crash. So I think it’s possible that each universe has different “1 possible way to defeat Thanos”
He also mentioned a fixed number of possibilities he looked at. There were more possibilities.
I’d just like to put it out there: Her kids’ cries for help at the end of WandaVision could’ve been a manipulation of the Darkhold, but it could also have been an echo of how her kids screamed for 838 Wanda when 616 Wanda showed up.
Yeah. I think so too. But then how? Because the after credit of Wanda Vision can’t happen at the same time MoM right?
The magic-canceling cuffs fully stops his magic. When he slaps the open cuff on Mordo, the sword in Mordo's OTHER hand stopped working. Just a quick observation. A bunch of others have already pointed out the reason for the demons attacking Strange.
the fact that Doctor Strange 2 revealed that our dreams are actually reality in another universe that makes for so many interesting theories throughout the history of the MCU.
I don't know if the fact that the Darkhold was in both Agents of SHIELD and Runaways proves that they exist in other universes. If anything, I feel that it pulls them back into the main MCU universe. They revealed in this movie that the Darkhold was a copy produced from the carvings on Wundagore. Who's to say that only one copy exists in each universe? If one copy can be produced, surely there can be more.
nice point
Scarlett witch destroyed every version of the darkhold from every universe at the end of the movie
presumably scarlet witch destroyed every Wundagore sanctuary because she had that information from wong
Finally someone made a reference to agents of shield
As it was a “copy” I believe that the one in The Runaways and the one from Agents of Shield were both also real (copies) and they’ve now been destroyed too.
4:12 The TVA is not universal or multiversal, it only applies to the “sacred timeline” aka earth 616’s universe. What Kang was doing was obscuring or hiding universe-616 from the rest, and thus keeping it safe from incursions.
10:02 I think Wanda-616’s difference from the other Wanda’s is the loss of her family from the flashback in WandaVision (I think, we’re their apartment gets hit by a Stark bomb). So Wanda-616 is the unstable crazy one that eventually fell in love with Vision, the rest still have their mom, dad, and brother. As far as we know, Sokovia only gets screwed in universe-616, so the other Wanda’s come from stable backgrounds.
re 4:12
i wish this was clearer because i think that He Who Remains was actually the only variant of himself in the whole multiverse, hence the title. as in he killed all the other ones and ended other universes and was able to keep these universes that he was able to manage. he had that dark cloud at the edge of time which he invented or tampered with or whatever in his favour. like universe 616 isn't all of those timelines combined. one timeline = one universe.
the thing is that the other universes could still have found his if those other ones don't have their own TVA and branched off randomly. there's no way those wouldn't get to him and because there are an infinite amount, a multiversal war would still keep happening
i wish we can find out more for these to make sense (at least for me).. but i doubt they'll make it clearer because this could create more loopholes with other shows/movies they've already put out
i dont think that the other wandas still have their parents, or at least the 838 version likely doesnt. in that universe wanda still has her chaos magic that she obtained from the mind stone when she volunteered for the hydra experiments, which was caused by her losing her parents to stark's weapons that were being used against her country
@@cloverlove1212 that's a good catch. it could also be possible that her father in that timeline is magneto (just even the parent who raised her or however it went in the comics) the appearance of prof xavier made me think of it as a possibility
@@rizzzzzzzzzzzz good thinking! i love that theory. i really wish we had gotten magneto or a nod to him in the film
But Sylvie's universe wasn't 616 and she was too pruned. And this all goes for Classic Loki and all other variants. They were not harming 616 universe in any ways.
You guys are awesome, but a "plot hole" is an inconsistancy in the narrative or a character. I don't think any of those examples were "plot holes". If a reader doesn't get something, that doesn't indicate a plot hole. This term gets misused all the time and it makes having these discussions a little more difficult. Keep up the great work!
Loki created so many plot holes dude…also remember the main universe is literally missing infinity stones…the ancient one said it’s catastrophic, one minute they are strongest the next paper weights….that’s garbage writing…
@@Skabanis technically the infinity stones aren’t missing, they have been reduced to atoms. They still exist but can’t be used.
@@Skabanis Infinity Stones are only "paperweights" in the TVA because they don't work outside their own Universe. The TVA exists outside Space and Time, therefore the Stones are just cool looking rocks.
@@OrbitZombie this can't be true because epf what if, ultron is going to other universes using the same infinity stones
@@austincarlson9270 According to the writers Infinity Ultron found a clever workaround. Since he's made of material from his universe he can use the Stones to augment HIMSELF but not the materials from the Universes he invades.
I appreciate actual discussion like this. It’s fun. Actually using your brain to try and figure things out instead of feverishly finding plot holes and chocking it up to bad writing in a sad effort to make it seem like you outsmarted the writers.
The "Sacred Timeline" doesn't actually require a single timeline, the TVA's technology only detects universal branches wherein a multiverse travelling being could challenge Kang (or whatever they call him on the show). Why would Kang put in effort to prune all those universes where everyone just stays put in their own universe/timeline?
I suppose it's just another thing to keep track of. His time is precious.
Exactly.
*THIS!* I don't know why it's so difficult to understand.. there's always been a multiverse. He Who Remains' TVA was build to *isolate* his chosen branches to prevent a Kang from existing.
Big props to you for being so open about any struggles you're going through. Hope you get through it ✊🏾
I thought the dead souls/demons fought back at Dr. Strange b/c he was dreamwalking through a dead body, rather than someone who was alive? Could be wrong tho, and great video nonetheless!
You’re right they say it in the movie
The poor soul had been seemingly chosen by the night but ,fate had external karma interacting in fractional spheres of multiple impressions and redirects, ultimately the fool decided to like black widow, sacrifice herself for the soul stone
I think the Darkhold shows her no Universe where Wanda is dead and her children are Orphans. These Universes may exist, but it wouldn't push forward the Darkhold's Agenda
also in order to dreamwalk you need a version of yourself in that universe so assuming she's buried in the universe/s she's dead in she would only see darkness in those universes and not travel there
11:15 The kids screaming for help. Was a trick from the dark hold. To trick Wanda to believe there was a version of her kids who needed her help. That got wanda to invest more of herself in the book and loose reality of the evil mission she was on
It could be even more sinister and those voices were her kids... except they were pleading to be saved from The Scarlet Witch which is precisely what Wanda is forced to confront in the movie.
Absolutely that is possible, that it was just a trick or like the other person said it was them in danger from her. Another possibility in an infinite multiverse is that there really are two orphans out their looking for her help. However, the book corrupted her so much she wasn’t thinking clearly.
QUESTION: So is the reason the boys were growing so fast in the HEX was because they were trying to catch up to their proper age in other Time line she was seeing them in!?
Hmmm, interesting theory.
In others universe they exist in all ages possible, that is infinity.
So basically that means if they wanted to age up Billy and Tommy for young avengers they could easily do so?
No, they did it to have the dog. The dog Agatha planted.
Could be an interesting additional reason as to why they aged up, tho Wanda could have also been looking for them at that age in alternate realities, not every reality would necc follow the same flow of time as hers for Earth 616, love that they mention the numbering method for universes too. But I get your point too so interesting, can't wait for them to incorporate Loki. Really looking forward to them explaining the multiple realizations when diff characters became aware of the multiverse. Mb they'll do that in S2 of Loki
In an infinite multiverse, it could also take an infinite amount of time to find a specific universe. Unless Wanda is immortal, she may never actually find the perfect universe for her. So she would have to pick the best universe that she can find given the amount of time she has.
It's like how Strange saw one possible outcome out of 14 million where they win. Well, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes, maybe outcome # 15 million or # 10 trillion will be better than the one he chose but he didn't have the time to look into every outcome.
There cannot be infinite universes bcoz if there were, then the region where all the multiuniverses meet/intersect[The place where book of vishanti resides] would be crowded with many universes leading to the book of vishanti, making it hard for doctor strange to even walk there.
About Wanda going to a reality in which her kids are orphans, she wouldn't be able to know about its existence since there would not be a version of her to dream walk into or to dream about.
She could find one. The Illumanati were keeping tabs on all universes, maybe Wanda could've just asked them about a universe where her children were orphans.
Beating that, if she asked America nicely to help her find her children and to search for a reality where her variant is dead and her kids were orphans, that would've made things easier rather than sending demons to attack her.
That’s what America’s portals were ultimately for. She would kill the other Wanda and go there herself physically.
@@ciaran4135 the illumanti are useless. also, seeing how they were so agaisnt america and strange traveling, why would they help her.
“Mom, help!” Was the kids yelling out to their real mom, Wanda, when Scarlet Witch was attacking like at the end of Multiverse of Madness. There were not yelling out to MCU Wanda through a different universe.
I find it hard to believe that it takes so much power constantly to fix his hands. He can transform black holes into butterflies but he cants fix his hands & still be a powerful sorcerer at the same time
From what was said in the movie, the spirits were attacking Strange because he was dreamwalking through a dead body.
I thought the film made it pretty clear that the spirits attacked Strange because he was possessing a dead body. He used dreamwalking to do it, yes, but they had an issue with the possession of a dead body.
Yeah it made it pretty clear
Quite literally many people have had interactions/ crossed paths without having a clue that they had been visited ,one time a traveler had told me about a couple who literally had "been stowaway" for a year and a half, they went on to get endorsement from one of the Kardashians not lying 😳
What was very interesting was the star on the book of of Vishanti when it was destroyed that mirrored the presentation of America's power.
Then Dr. Stranges later assertion that her power took her exactly where she needed to be. Very similar to the Vishanti's supposed power.
I think the best way to understand timelines/universes, and the implications from both Loki and MoM, is by assuming Kang's perfect timeline (even his castle that's outside of the timeline), is all universe 616. He's keeping it locked tight from other universes (universes that exist differently to the perfect timeline/universe, to avoid Kang from invading it)
geenmpt
MAN you gotta give credit to the editors of this video! The cuts at 11:26 showing the different stages Wanda goes through of being controlled by Chthon are great. Really great work goes into these videos.
I think going for Billy and Tommy in universes where Wanda was still alive was easier and Darkhold tempted her to pick those universes instead.
Yeah, this dude missed some obvious plot points. Without America's power Wanda can't go into alternate universes, she can only Dreamwalk into other Wandas. That means any universe with her kids orphaned - inherently lacking a Wanda - is outside of her ability to access.
@@whitewatersflame and why she just dream walking forever inside the body of one of her variants? She didn’t need america
@@whitewatersflame she can only dreamwalk using the dark hold which is destroyed
@@TheKuroSheep cause while dream walking her actual self is vulnerable and defenseless - someone could kill her while she dream walks.
@@whitewatersflame They can easily sit down and talk and properly teach America how to use her powers with typical training. She was reasonable at the start of the movie, didn't start completely corrupted and insane.
12:40 "When Steven used it to dream walk, the souls of the damned trapped inside the book attacked him."
I thought they said it was specifically because he was inhabiting a dead body and thus was trespassing as the dead body belongs to the dead, not the living. Hmmm...
Note that cereral is not to be confused with the x-men mutant finding machine cerbro they are 2 totally different things and should not be confused with each other
So i recently rewatched the first Dr Strange and Mordo said that the rings they use to get around “lets us travel the multiverse” so how does that work and if it does let them travel the multiverse does Wanda really need America??
amor de crackpt
They could do some very interesting things with Strange's established idetic memory, in my opinion. Would spells he remembers from the Darkhold still bear Chthon's influence if he wasn't casting them directly from the Darkhold?
I completely forgot about this! This is a huge factor to consider
Wanda's motivation make perfect sense. Can we stop with this whole idea that villains, especially female villains, need to be innocents who aren't in control when they do evil and are actually victims? That's what pissed me off at the end of Wandavison, trying to act like she made a sacrifice by releasing people she enslaved and tortured. Or that they somehow had good intentions the entire time?
Support women’s wrongs Scarlet Witch was just misunderstood
She heard the kids were calling her for help. In the movie she was just looking for them and darkhold made her brutal. They forgot about WV ending :(
@@FireJach I think that maybe the darkhold is doing the same thing as the dragon from Shang chi- it’s basically corrupting her mind and making think irrationally and making her think she needs to do what she is doing to get what she wants
@@FireJach maybe they weren't calling to her for help. But for help from her?
I think they make it pretty clear in the film the reason the souls of the damned attack Dr Strange is because he dreamwalks into a CORPSE of himself, which is kind of like a reverse exorcism, and clearly a violation of whatever rules the souls follow.
I‘ll have to disagree on the hands thing, I really appreciated how right the movie got the whole „magic handcuff“ thing since it’s clear that neither of them can use any magic as soon as they have one cuff on, since dr strange 1 made it really clear that magic is not about your hands (prime example being the sorcerer with no hand), so having that sand in handcuffs wasn’t to block each hand separately, but rather a convenient way to put it on him and physically restrain him at the same time.
To how he could use his hand I’d just say he’s put enough magic into them over the years to at least kind of heal them
Doug is so smart! He comes up with the best questions and points out key plot elements!
This video had that “cut one head two more will appear in its place” effect for me
So many more questions
Mysterio, having no real knowledge of the multiverse, says that he’s from Earth 616 in Far From Home, which, of course, was a total lie. So, I guess that was just a wild coincidence.
or Christine is so good at her job that she went along with how Mysterio had probably popularised it within Strange's universe lol;
if she knew Strange was from that specific universe, she must know how to observe different universes thus knowing about Mysterio due to his popularity
pd: do u think she would see over the forgetting spell of Spiderman NWH btw?
I loved the movie, especially how it pulled from WandaVision and Loki. But here’s my concern for the MCU moving forward:
There are presumably infinite versions of each character; the lack of scarcity makes big moments have less impact in my mind. Any character getting offed just ends that singular instance/variant of that character. There’s little to no consequence overall, just in that singular universe. Kill Thanos? Welp, there are infinite others to come. Everyone’s favorite hero gets cut in half? Meh, let’s see the others! Maybe I’m being irrational or just haven’t really taken to the Multiversal direction of the MCU (yet), but I need me some scarcity to make each character have importance.
Well the stakes for us as the audience is and will always be how 616 universe is effected and the characters in it.
Though there is a new Gamora, I still perceive her as a different character entirely. She hasn't had the same history with The Guardians as the original Gamora. Plus I assume she will return to her timeline at some point.
Same with 616 Strange when he is in danger we feel more gripped by the story, we weren't supposed to feel that way about any other Stranges in that movie.
@@vanillawafer1182 that’s a good point. They’ll likely need to anchor to “our” universe that we’re familiar with. I don’t have the comic book knowledge of how this pans out, but I feel like there are more and more characters coming that can hop between universes, and those lines get blurred for me. I’m keeping an open mind, because I love the marvel movies and series, but I’m admittedly a little afraid that my middle-aged brain is going to lose interest if it goes too “out there”. (And yes, I am fully anticipating someone posting the old man yelling at clouds meme)
I’m guessing they’ll close the multiverse thing and return to an acceptable status quo similar to before the events of Loki, maybe at the end of this or the next phase with the events of secret wars. Can’t be closing incursion events forever. Each phase has a big baddie and a big team up movie. Maybe the multiverse thing will last for three phases similar to Thanos. We could get a team up film soon with the young avengers then house of m then secret wars. Can’t do it forever especially since it’s a negative plot point that needs to be stopped and teases a villain not just “oh hey this is awesome this is so cool.”
What you're describing was true in the comic books that this middle age man read as a kid. Characters kept coming back after getting replaced by alternate timeline versions, future versions, clones, mystical spirit replacements, etc. I realize that in that business, cranking out new characters every month would be impossible, but then maybe don't always go for the "death-but-not-really" ending all the time. "The Death of Jean Grey" in the X-Men was game changing and shattering, at least until they said "psyche!" a couple decades later and then killed and brought her back a few more times just for effect...
With Star Wars under the same roof, we've also seen that getting cut in half, getting thrown down a bottomless pit while lightning yourself to death, etc, aren't enough to kill you for keeps, and if you're a fan favorite, your ghost can hang out with all the others in perpetuity. There must just be some natural urge among writers to undo any death they've written previously, just to have that character back in their toybox again.
The question about why can't Wanda recreate her kids is very good and it shows the gigantic damage the film did to Wanda's character progression coming out of Wandavision. Wanda wasn't forced to let the kids or Vision go at the end of Wandavision, she chose to let them go because they are not real. In the post-credit scene she is given a vision that not only are they real but they are crying for help. She wasn't supposed to be on some universe hopping rampage trying to steal other Wanda's children. She was supposed to be trying to rescue her own.
Couldn’t have that been the darkhold playing tricks
@@doodlekid9864 Definitely. And it would have made sense if they expressly showed that (like Shang-Chi's dad was being tricked into thinking his wife was calling). But even so, she would just be tricked into going on a rescue mission, not into stealing people's kids.
Your totally right
Also she could recreate them but then they could only live in a hex setting. If they would go out most likely would be destroyed.
@@joelhenry5489 You're trying to find logic in what's a dark energy corruption that makes people go mad, Wanda literally can't see reason in the movie and her actions are only moved by her wanting her kids back for selfish reasons. She even made up mantras ("I'm not a monster, i'm a mother!") and whenever she's faced with alternatives she shuts them down, again proving how she isn't thinking logically anymore and is moved purely by feelings (corrupted by the darkhold) and the only reason she stops is not because of the damage she cause or the people she killed or any of that, she only stops because the kids are afraid of her and can't see her as their mother.
TL;DR: It's just an allegory for the mother that loves her kids so much she's willing to do bad things for their sake, against all reason and logic (though in this case "magic corruption" and mental instability also play a role)
Multiverse and alternate timelines explained as trees:
A tree in this example is one universe. The trunk and largest branch being the main timeline of that tree. Branches are alternate timelines of that tree. (From each branch you get other branches) other universes would be other trees. When trees branches from different trees grow into each other you get incursions. If big enough it threatens both trees. In Loki the focus was keeping timelines from colliding (by trimming branches) In dr strange it’s prevented by destroying a whole other tree or branches to keep different trees from colliding.
You brushed off a question neatly, Dr. Strange at the beginning of the movie summoned powers of strong magical creatures and used to fight off the one eyed monster, where did he get them from?
It was the Dark Hold calling out to her in her kids’ voices. Not her actual kids.
I posit that the reason Wanda can't just become the mom of orphan Bill and Tommy is because there simply is no reality where they exist without her. If in these other versions of them they exist because of her magic then if she dies, they die
There's a video here on YT, called "imagine the 10th dimension", I really suggest everyone to go and watch it, it explains a theory about dimensions, different timeliness and different universes (multiverse), it's mind blowing and might take a couple watches before you get the henge of it but it kinda helps me understand the madness of the multiverse
absolutely loved Ashantis pic on the book of the vishanti..between your knowledge of life..that dog and your humor..you are by far one of my favorites on youtube..keep up this amazing work!
I think that when it came to defeating thanos he saw multiple versions where they won but the loss of life in each of those were greater or even on an extinction level thus he went with the one where on 2 died versus thousands or even millions
There's a perfectly logical explanation for why Wanda doesn't search for a universe where her kids are orphaned: she wouldn't be able to dreamwalk into a universe that didn't have a living Wanda. Strange was only able to dreamwalk into Defender Strange's body because he knew where it was and it hadn't decayed too badly. But Wanda would have no way of knowing anything about the universes where her alternates had died. She could only work with what she could see
America should've led her to a Universe where her children were orphaned. That way no dream walking would've been necessary.
So a question I had right after the movie, if all the dreams are visions from different universes, what about lucid dreaming where the person who is dreaming can control their own dreams. What could be the explanation for that?
Maybe in a lucid dream you aren't really controlling your actions you're just making the same choices since you're essentially the same person?
Not all dreams. Dreams are just a window to our multiverse selves. Like how rivers lead to mountains but not all rivers. Same way, dreams can show you glimpses of other universes, but not all of them will be multiversal visions. Now, America Chavez does say that she never dreams because there is only one of her and she doesn't have any variants. But she herself doesn't understand her powers yet, so she is just speculating like us. Maybe people of the Utopian Parallel don't dream in general, and has nothing to do with her not having any variants. Like how not having mountains does not mean that there will be no rivers. Maybe there are no rivers because it's just a desert.
the demons fought back Strange because he used a dead Strange instead of a living one
Correct
I would like to see the changes that Black Widow brought to that universe in What If. She went to another universe before Ultron happened with the knowledge that Ultron was gonna happen. That has got to make a huge impact and it also tells everybody in that universe that the multiverse is real which I imagine would cause a lot of changes that wouldn't have normally happened.
Love you for bringing up mental health, man. Hope you and Doug are doing awesome. We all really appreciate you and the videos you make for us.
I've always considered the Multiverse to be 5th dimensional reality and the Omniverse to be 6th dimensional. Either way I didn't hear much in the way of plot holes, merely plot questions.
Well plot holes would be if the plot questions are unanswerable lol
The spirits of the damned attacked strange because he was dream walking into a corpse not just cause he was dream walking. They even say it.
The demons fought against Strange because using a dead body for dream walking is forbidden. The demons said it directly to him.
Intelligent, full of exciting exclamations.
4:23
The problem for Slyvie universe wasn't that she was a "Woman", it was that she was going to be a "Good Loki" instead of evil. If the 616 Loki" Ever Turned Good Before Thor 1 or even the Avengers then it would have got pruned because he's not following He's who Remain Script for his lie of a "Sacred Timeline".
Exactly. We even learn that our Loki is genderfluid and has likely taken the form of a woman before.
I also think He who remains knew Loki variants are tricky ones bc they will find a way to reach him. So he specifically targeted Lokis. But yeah Loki is the reason the Avengers has assembled and He who remains probably was born in future and whatever affects his birth he will keep an eye on them closer.
Also remember that wanda and strange had to look through all of these realities separately, so yes they could find an ultra specific universe with whatever specifications, but it would be exhausting and tedious
She's ready to go on a Multiversal Murder Romp but not willing to watch the extended cut?
Get better man! 🙏🏾🙏🏾
One of my first synchronicities was 616, and 606, I literally would see these numbers constantly repeating around me everywhere and yesterday I got to see this movie and Christine said she named this reality 616.
Those who understand can imagine how mind-blown I am right now!!! There's so much esoteric knowledge revealed right now through movies like Doctor strange The matrix and old movies too like total recall, groundhog Day, wizard of Oz, it's just incredible.
i absolutely love how complex things are getting and will be, so much to follow up/stay up to date on
thank you!
Wait I thought in the comics Wanda was a nexus being where there was only one wanda ever, but she can dream walk?
Wanda is not a nexus being in the MCU: she dreams which means she is seeing variants in other universes. America Chavez, though, is likely a nexus being, since she doesn't dream and has never found any variants of herself.
Isn't it the scarlet witch who is the nexus being?
@@laloet in the comics but not in the MCU, it seems.
@@gr8tbigtreehugger Actually nexus beings have their variants, A nexus being is not someone who's only one person in the whole Multiverse,but an important person of an universe who can affect the flow of time in their reality plus some other things.
@@gr8tbigtreehugger ok thank you
The souls of the damned attacked strange because he was dreamwalking a corpse, it’s stated in the movie.
That's what i thought. Weird how they didn't notice it
I really enjoyed parts of Doctor Strange MOM, but thought that Wanda's motivations couldve been changed. Like maybe if she was searching for her kids, like they were trapped (as we heard in the post credits scene of WV). And she would still be doing something wrong so Strange could still fight her and everything, and she could even still take over the 838 Wanda, and just have a scene of her telling herself that she will have "her" kids back. Just change the finale to America being attacked by Wanda, and America opening a portal to the 838 kids. They get scared and confused seeing who they think is their mother attacking someone. Something like her seeing them scared and then her telling herself "I am a monster." then destroying the temple and the rest is the same.
I'm still confused how 616 is like functioning without any infinity stones at all......
Precisely what I've been thinking for the whole film, esp the siege of Kamar-Taj scene: where the hell is Shang-Chi?? If they're friends now with Wong and he needs help, doesn't he have to be here now? He'd also be a great help.
The biggest problem I had with the movie is that Wong (allegedly Sorceror Supreme) is significantly under-powered when compared with Strange. This despite having access to books and therefore arcane knowledge that Strange has yet to see. There is no reasonable explanation other than that Wong is undeserving of the title and will lose it at some point.
Wong became sorcerer Supreme because strange was dusted bruh learn to watch movie if strange wasn't dusted then he could've been and ancient one said strange was meant to be the best of them 😐
It's just like in real life give two people a set of tools and one is always going to be able to do more with them whether it be higher intellect or just more highly skilled. Strange is no doubt the better sorcerer than Wong. He was doing spells that no apprentice should have been able to do. Strange will become a sorcerer supreme there is no doubting that. Though I do love me some Wong!!!!
@@thatomanaka323 I know why Wong got the role but Sorceror Supreme isn't just some honorary title. It's a role which requires the person in that role be able to do many things to protect the multiverse. Wong isn't powerful enough. He is clearly only in the role because the person who should have it wasn't there. He especially should be prepared to step down rather than continually make the point to Strange that he deserves respect now that he has the title. Think what Wong accomplished during the movie. Oh wait he basically didn't accomplish much.
@@BeyondOrdinary strange started doing magic in 2016 and infinity war takes place in 2018 he got blibbed and came back 5 years later and They said MOM takes place 2 years after endgame so the guy known how to use magic for 4 years he is smart but still lack experience idk if u watch Naruto but Kakashi became hokage before Naruto not because of power but he had more experience than Naruto even though Naruto was the most powerful its all about experience
@@BeyondOrdinary he is a better teacher though.
26 minutes later and idk anything
You've had the best explanation of 616 vs 1999999999 I've heard yet!
Reed is also a chronic sufferer of "Smartest Guy in the Room Syndrome". He's so damned smart, it's inconceivable to him that anyone could be nearly as smart or clever as him. We see him do stuff like that in the comics all the time that shows his hubris. Like that one time he got mad at Hank Pym in an argument, and told the man who discovered/invented Pym Particles, that he knew more about the subject than him. Only a massive narcissist like Reed would tell this ultimate evil entity with nearly unlimited power how they can instantly take her out.
Or maybe it was a body double like Victor Von Doom's clones. It looks like Reed used Doom's tech to teleport in his introduction too, so... it just wasn't him. The real Reed was eating pizza balls with his family.
Where is TVA in this movie? Why they didn't intervented to prevent wanda dreamwalking and other thing which could lead to nexus events, incursions...
Strange saw only 14 million possible realities, he said. That's a very small number (compared to infinity), so I have no problem with the notion that he simply didn't see the 838 universe.
Also I'm not yet convinced that "different universes," "different realities" and "different timelines" are necessarily the same thing. Based on what I've seen in the MCU, it sure seems like the same universe can have multiple timelines, and it's all one universe.
You put more thought into making all of this work than all of the writers combined!
When Wandas kids say help they are quoting the movie when Wanda is attacking their mom (alternate wanda) she is hearing the future?
I just found your channel and I love it. Every video is so well thought out and so well informed and intelligent. 1 more subscriber. (P.S. Loved the "Welcome to the layer cake" reference.) 👍
Also, Steven didn't use the time stone to look into alternate realities which it cannot do. Instead, he used it to look into possible futures for just the 616 universe alone. The infinity stones do not have the ability to traverse the multiverse.
Almost 100% brilliant. You suggest that dream walking by itself can cause a threat to reality, however. This seems unlikely since rare individuals in our reality can dream-walk to some degree, with no bad effects.
Actually a counterargument to Wanda not adopting adopting her children being orphaned in another universe is actually self explanatory. If they are orphaned it pretty much stands to reason that she can't access those universes due probably not being able to dream walk in them. If that was her motivation, she would still need Chavez's power to enter them anyway.
it makes sense too that there is only book of Vishanti because it exists or is kept in that location that is like the multiverse hub, it isn't actually inside any one universe but in between many.
Appreciate your vulnerability regarding mental health. Hope things get easier for your soon! Your content brightens my day ✨️
Thanks bro Loki and the timeline makes so much more sense now