I remember Matt Dillahunty saying that despite the fact that he liked the people involved in this debate he thought it was pointless, and man was he right.
This gets so frustrating sometimes, I wish I could hop on stage and give my two cents! for a large portion of the debate (I'm not finished watching yet) TJump is not arguing that Religion does more good than harm, he's arguing that *lying* does more good than harm (specifically for medical reasons). We know that technically is the case, via placebo studies. But when you attach the extra BULLSHIT like women being second class citizens, a global flood happened, slavery is perfectly fine, and other such massively detrimental to society things, then you're not arguing coherently. additionally, after watching more and thinking on the topic. Do you think there's more sick people getting better slightly faster due to being lied to, OR more LGBTQ+ people having their mental health negatively impacted by all the terrible ways religions treat them? Being ostracized from communities and their own families even, driven towards depression, bottling up emotions, higher rates of suicide, worse job opportunities, etc? For every 'good' thing religion does, there are multiple ways it's harmful.
In debates like these, we ought separate or make a strict distinct of individual beliefs VS entire societies. Like, we can all agree positive thinking, (whether pure placebo or merely just an unlikely outcome) can benefit an individual. However, when it comes to secular vs religious societies, it's no contest. Even on things like "happiness" which religious individuals claim higher reports of (flawed as that self-reporting is) completely crumbles when rephrased to, "Could your life be better?" to which religious societies plummet.
determinism is dumb, at least say "I dont know", but claiming outright our sense of self is an illusion, is just dumb. Who is even claiming it, an illusion?
@andreimaxwell4455 well personally I have to know I am, but I wont force that on anybody or condemn nobody. It is in fact a humble position to be unsure of your own being, but determinism cannot either be accepted as a truth from which we govern society
Are we this strapped for content, or interlocutors, that we're debating opposition points against our own figurative team? What even was the point of this?
There surely has to be some point to these two atheists debating such a subject, but I'm screwed if I know what it is! I mean has the well run so dry we have to start debating our own side?
It appears the benefits of lying in any form including religion, have been measured on a narrow parameter and time scale, with very little addressing the cost of perpetuating and dispersing lies and very effect on other aspects of life, including social, political, ethical, and even overall human progress, especially when it becomes a triviality and the accepted norm. Now I understand this would be difficult to qualify and quantify, but without it, the statistics only tell part of the story and insufficient to make a decisive judgment.
Interessting session. If lies are ok or better why not say stories and get rid of the religion. Because if religion is a real thing.....of course it matter if its real or not. Anyway god seemed not to be interessted in audio quality. Guys. Please get yourself some usefull gear or people who know how to use it. Thanks take care.
I am religious and you have the freedom to self-delete your notion of self and will, I am not going to force you to exist. Keep your free thought. Saying religious thought denies your freedom, is a strawman. Like I said I am religious and I am not going to deny your freedom, or think less of you or condemn you to "hell", I don't even believe in hell. What I would say is that, don't be so quick to throw this gift away just because our antecesors made mistakes.
so its basically determinism with extra cringe Why should anybody give the time of day to someone who does not considered the notion of self as being anything but a deterministic illusion? They are self negating, so 🤷thats ok I guess. You don't exist then beyond the illusion of yourself, fine by me, more will to me I guess. You keep being an illusion, Ill keep being the literal son of GOD
I remember Matt Dillahunty saying that despite the fact that he liked the people involved in this debate he thought it was pointless, and man was he right.
Well done Aron. Always a pleasure seeing you slay in these debates.
I'm angry that I was indoctrinated into religion as a child. It took me decades to deconstruct.
This gets so frustrating sometimes, I wish I could hop on stage and give my two cents!
for a large portion of the debate (I'm not finished watching yet) TJump is not arguing that Religion does more good than harm, he's arguing that *lying* does more good than harm (specifically for medical reasons). We know that technically is the case, via placebo studies. But when you attach the extra BULLSHIT like women being second class citizens, a global flood happened, slavery is perfectly fine, and other such massively detrimental to society things, then you're not arguing coherently.
additionally, after watching more and thinking on the topic. Do you think there's more sick people getting better slightly faster due to being lied to, OR more LGBTQ+ people having their mental health negatively impacted by all the terrible ways religions treat them? Being ostracized from communities and their own families even, driven towards depression, bottling up emotions, higher rates of suicide, worse job opportunities, etc? For every 'good' thing religion does, there are multiple ways it's harmful.
In debates like these, we ought separate or make a strict distinct of individual beliefs VS entire societies. Like, we can all agree positive thinking, (whether pure placebo or merely just an unlikely outcome) can benefit an individual. However, when it comes to secular vs religious societies, it's no contest. Even on things like "happiness" which religious individuals claim higher reports of (flawed as that self-reporting is) completely crumbles when rephrased to, "Could your life be better?" to which religious societies plummet.
Lies can only help so much, placebos can only do so much, if your relying on lies to stay happy your doing it wrong
determinism is dumb, at least say "I dont know", but claiming outright our sense of self is an illusion, is just dumb. Who is even claiming it, an illusion?
@@MarceloSeravalli The people that refuse to say "I don't know."
@andreimaxwell4455 well personally I have to know I am, but I wont force that on anybody or condemn nobody. It is in fact a humble position to be unsure of your own being, but determinism cannot either be accepted as a truth from which we govern society
All the young children want to be lied to when they were young or were, they lied to by people who were also lied to
Does it help the millions and millions of women that don’t have rights around the world, including in Muslim countries?
And the usa... sadly recently
I just listened to tjump spout facts that I heard from Forrest say almost the complete opposite. I trust Forrest
Intriguing to see this from 2 atheists, and interesting to see TJump out of his signature chair.
Is TJump just doing this as an academic exercise?
Are we this strapped for content, or interlocutors, that we're debating opposition points against our own figurative team?
What even was the point of this?
Agreed. What a waste of time this was.
@@jdm3075How was this a waste of time exactly?
There surely has to be some point to these two atheists debating such a subject, but I'm screwed if I know what it is! I mean has the well run so dry we have to start debating our own side?
Why would ANYONE step into the ring with Aron?!? You're gonna lose!
Aron ra is right and everything else just sucks
You are wrong
You suck
@@JohnLovell-q9pno you
It appears the benefits of lying in any form including religion, have been measured on a narrow parameter and time scale, with very little addressing the cost of perpetuating and dispersing lies and very effect on other aspects of life, including social, political, ethical, and even overall human progress, especially when it becomes a triviality and the accepted norm. Now I understand this would be difficult to qualify and quantify, but without it, the statistics only tell part of the story and insufficient
to make a decisive judgment.
Is this new? I feel like I remember seeing this?
TIL Tjump isnt in a wheelchair
Interessting session. If lies are ok or better why not say stories and get rid of the religion. Because if religion is a real thing.....of course it matter if its real or not.
Anyway god seemed not to be interessted in audio quality. Guys. Please get yourself some usefull gear or people who know how to use it.
Thanks take care.
Get a sound person !!!
whinner
beer
I am religious and you have the freedom to self-delete your notion of self and will, I am not going to force you to exist.
Keep your free thought. Saying religious thought denies your freedom, is a strawman. Like I said I am religious and I am not going to deny your freedom, or think less of you or condemn you to "hell", I don't even believe in hell. What I would say is that, don't be so quick to throw this gift away just because our antecesors made mistakes.
so its basically determinism with extra cringe
Why should anybody give the time of day to someone who does not considered the notion of self as being anything but a deterministic illusion? They are self negating, so 🤷thats ok I guess. You don't exist then beyond the illusion of yourself, fine by me, more will to me I guess. You keep being an illusion, Ill keep being the literal son of GOD
TJump won
No he didn't 🧐😂🤣
Our nation has failed us.
@@QuinnHoward TJ won
@@stephenhill8790 Yes he did
@@JohnLovell-q9pnope
Does it help the millions and millions of women that don’t have rights around the world, including in Muslim countries?