Old High German vs. Old Saxon: Do you REALLY know the Difference?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2022
- In this video, Dr. Scott Shell discusses the basic differences between Old Saxon and the various Old High German dialects.
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In case anyone is wondering: Old Low German (OLG) and Old High German (OHG) are two different groupings. Basically, OLG is north and OHG is anything below the so-called Benrather Linie. What people do not understand is that the modern divisions we have today are completely screwed as far as looking at them as true dialects. Aside from Plaat and Bavarian, there really are no true dialects anymore. We can thank Martin Luther for that. When he translated the Bible into his dialect, this became the German standard because people wanted to read the Bible in German. Essentially, this is what replaced all the old true dialects. When we talk about a dialect in Niedersachsen now, for example, what we are actually referring to is High German / Hochdeutsch pronounced with a Niedersachsen/Lower Saxony accent.
Also, the typical OHG texts we deal with are, e.g., aus dem Tatian, Muspilli, aus dem Abrogans, die Monsee Fragmente, anything from Isidor, Notker, Otfrid, etc.
ahh damn
This is gonna sound so pedantic but I can't help myself...
Feel free to ignore this
*Platt
Furthermore: "Platt" is a colloquial term that is used by many communities across Germany and the Netherlands to refer to their local language varieties. Saxon is one of them but not the only one.
FurtherFurthermore: "Plattdeutsch" does uniquely identify Saxon but it is a High German exonyme. Using that in English makes about as much sense as randomly calling Dutch "Niederländisch". I'd very much appreciate if people started simply calling it Low German/(Low) Saxon when speaking English.
@@davidmanman1935 not at all! Fair points! Thanks for bringing it up!
Lanz Liebenfels based his translation of the Psalms on the work of Hierynomus(St. Jerome) and Ulfilas. My memory is bad on certain things and I dont have book in front of me, but I think he pretty much rejected Luther's translation and those based on it. I reserve the right to be wrong. If wrong I will correct as soon as possible.
That is actually not true. Not only Bavarian and Platt have nowadays a dialect. For me, I speak a Swabian dialect and we truly have a dialect it's not a "Regiolekt"(idk the term in English). For example we don't have the simple past tense "Präteritum", we only have the perfect and the past perfect tense. Like we don't have "hatte" we only have "gehabt (khet)" and "hatte gehabt (gwaä khet)". This applies to all except "sein" which you can argue has the "Präteritum" "war". Some varieties like "Honoratienschwäbisch" or the Stuttgart Swabian have a big high german influence but not where I live (southern swabia or "Oberschwaben").
Also the "ch" is not only a swiss german characteristic but rather a southern alemannic. At Lake Constance there is also a Ch instead of a K see "Bodenseealemanisch"
So please be careful the next time you make a statement like that
@@habter4172 I was just giving some rough generalizations. Thanks for providing more specifics to the thread.
Thanks for the informative video, Scott. I am a native speaker of Pfälzisch (Rhenish Franconian). I found quite a lot of insights why we talk how we talk. We obviously just did not do all the soundshifts, and I am proud of it somehow. We must make an effort to preserve the dialects. They are a window into our past and an important heritage.
My grandparents spoke pa dutch, which is very similar to Pfälzisch. It's been driving me crazy, how the high german sound shift didn't happen completely there. My oma used to say she was speaking plattdeutsch. She was wrong but maybe a bit right too?
Mein Herr Danke fur deine arbeit fur den Germanen.
hallo, I bims enz Germane. I will min Arbeit zuck zuruck. Aber dalli!
@@Noqtis Nö!
Will you be doing a video on the song Nesso by Heilung? I read somewhere that it is in old Saxon. Thank you for your videos. They are very informative. I’m from the east of the Netherlands and I see a lot of overlap with all the old Saxon stuff
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I actually might do this. I like a lot of their material!
OHG /k/ would be unvoiced, but not likely aspirated. Same with /p/ in
I understand more spoken than written for some reason. Especially when I know what it is that's being said. It's easier to relate the sounds of the word I guess.
Danke. I just got Robinson's book on the connection between OE, OHG, old franconian, ON, Gothic, etc. It has finally dawned on me that Germany's dialects, even Pennsylvania dutch, is based on these old dialects. Do you know PA dutch? Papier becomes babier. Tür becomes Dier. Klein becomes glein. What causes that? Anyway I got my book and discovered on the same day. Coincidence!
Judging from your examples, it just looks like voiceless stops systematically become voiced stops.
Isch Schwizerduitsch ed au a Dialegd vom Alamannische, und Tiroler a Dialegd vom Boarische, zmol se em Siâdlungsgebiat fo d Alamanne bzw. d Boare gschwätzt wore sin?
Ha ja, sicher!
Ohh nooo you forgot us. You mention Dutch but not modern Saxon. Especially in the western dialects 'g' is still a fricative.
Hey, now! I don't usually forget about you guys. But, yes! Sorry :)
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 Hehe can happen. ☺️
Do you have any recommendations on resources for learning Old High German or Old Saxon (but especially Old Saxon). I got my hands on two old grammar books for OS but they are OLD, as in 100 years+. And even in the parts that I've read (not too far in yet) they already contradict each other to some extend...
So I'd like something that's a bit more up to date with current scholarly consensus and maybe a bit more streamlined.
So, a few things: those grammars are probably the best out there. Wright, Holthausen, etc. are fantastic still to this day. The works are going to contradict each other to some extent just because they are not necessarily going to agree in every respect. One of the newer OS grammars can be found in Cathey's "Heliand: Text and Commentary." But, if his grammar appears "easier," it's because it is. He standardizes much of the OS spelling.
As far as OHG is concerned, my preference has always been Braune. Again, this is old, but really good. If you cannot speak/read German, then your options are limited.
What is your email address? Send me a message on Instagram. I'm putting together an OS class, and we have one more slot if you're interested.
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 I don't use instagram...
But I sent you an email :).
Thank you for this explanation! However, I cringe whenever people say 'Dee changes to Tee' instead of saying the sound D changes to sound T. Dee's and Tee's are letters and letters are sometimes very different from the sounds they represent. Jackson Crawford makes the same logical error in his videos.
I simplify it on purpose. Not everyone understands, e.g., "a voiced alveolar stop becomes an unvoiced alveolar stop."
You realize ɣ as either a back velar voiced fricative, or a uvular voiced fricative. Was that the proto-Germanic realization? The aspirated palatovelar and labiovelar ǵʰ and gʷʰ generally merged into g right? So since one was fronted and the other wasn't, I wonder what the realization of the voiced velar fricative was. "Raspy" (back velar / uvular) or "smooth" (plain velar or front velar)
Hi Scott, Uncle Wednesday here. As a (non-native) Dutch speaker, I am struck by the similarity of some Old Saxon words to modern Dutch. My main question at the moment, though, is how close was continental Old Saxon to the Saxon that was spoken in the south of England in the 8th and 9th Centuries?
Hey, Chris. If you're talking about West Saxon, they weren't similar at all. West Saxon went through some drastic phonological changes when compared to continental Old Saxon. If you're talking about Belgium, the Netherlands, etc., there are a ton of similarities. Although Old Saxon is not arguably a direct descendant of Dutch/Old Dutch, they are very closely related. The Niedersachsen dialect is the closest thing to we get to for a modern result of continental "Old" Saxon.
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 Thanks Scott. I would be really interested to watch a video about those differences between Old Saxon and West Saxon.
ya Boetie jy is rech Nederlands is baie soos Norse. Lekker ne praat die tall met stolsheid
@@DD-rt9lc 😄
@@BoerChris ja of Afrikaans
Is East Franconian the "standard schoolbook OHG" like the West Saxon dialect of OE from around 900-1000 CE is the "standard schoolbook OE?" Interesting stuff!
Pretty much!
8:35 you say the n disappears in all other germanic languages, but it stayed in dutch as well, i.e. ons, mond, gans, so how do you explain that?
Because the nasal + spirant law is for Ingvaeonic languages. Dutch doesn’t fall under this category (aside from Old Low Franconian)
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 oh I see, I thought you said "all other languages"
@@fgconnolly4170 if I did, I just wasn’t being concise. Glad I could clear it up. Good question
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 thanks! Your video was incredibly informative. You're the first person I've come across with such degrees and they fascinate me greatly. I'd love to study germanic languages however I've never come across the course. At the moment I'm planning ons studying history with German as a minor (the linguistic courses didn't interest me).
What about old Frisian, Scott?
It follows similar patterns closer to OE and OS.
Nowadays in Franconia Brot is Brod.
Dialekt foute naam. Betekend tweede tong val taal. Streek of oord taal de beste benaming
The Dutch G is like we're throwing up hehe
Haha pretty much
G als in loch ,,lochness
So, is it the norm for a lot of general scholarship to call something OHG, when in fact it may be one of the other dialects?
It actually is. When people who discuss OHG know linguistics, they know that they are referring to the OHG-speaking area. So, basically, if any of the sound shifts start to occur that I discussed in the video, this is OHG, but yes, everything is divided into dialects. There is no OHG as a unified language.
As a native low-Saxon speaker I feel highly ignored in this video. ;)
Haha damn it, guys! I said I’m sorry for leaving out Plaat! It’s all good, though. I deserve you all giving me shit for that lol, especially since I talk about your areas so much in my other videos!
Uut wekken rebeed kümst du van af?
Ja, vi [ve] danskere føler (feel) os også (also) uden-for (outside) i(n) din [deen] fine video 😂
Corn? Was not available in Europe until they brought it back from the Americas after 1493
It was a word that could mean any type of grain back then.
It seems to have had the meaning of anything which looks like it has small grains, for instance, one of the lines in the Old English rune poem reads :
"ᚺ byþ hwitust corna, hwyrft hit of heofones lyfte, wealcaþ hit windes scura, weoþeþ hit to wætere syððan."
"Hagol is the whitest of 'corns', it flies from heaven's wind, the wind's shower rolls it around, and it then returns to water afterwards."
Yes, like Scott mentions, "corn" was used to describe many grains in Europe. In the Americas, it was known as "maize."
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464 it still does in modern german (you probably already know, since you studied German)
@@Montaguish It is! :)
Jammer dat het Nederlands , ter zijde is gelegd.
Danish:
fader [fað-er !]
moder [mo(u)ð-er]
broder [bro(u)ð-er]
give
have
pund [poon*]
tand [tan*]
korn
sove ( schlafen / sleep )
mage [magh-e]
( skomager = Schumacher / shoemaker )
bog [bough, a la "sigh"], but
S bok
os [us]
Vanishing w before certain vowels:
ord [or*] = Wort / word
orm = worm
under = Wunder / wonder
( + under = unter / under )
uge [oogh-e] = Woche / week
( S vecka ! )
ønske = Wünsch(en) / wish
Odin = Woden / Wotan
onsdag [ons-day(gh)] = Wednesday, from (Woden's day)
( "onsdag" is actually still pronounced [wons-dauw] in some of our West Danish (Jutish) dialects 😉 ).
But normally w- corresponds to v- in Danish:
vil = will
vind = wind
vild = wild
vinde [vin*-ne] = win / wind (curl up )
vin [veen] = wine
viv [veev] = ~ Weib / wife
varm = warm
vade = waden / wade
vandre = wanderen / wander
våd [voað] = wet
vej [vigh] = Weg / way
( but væn ~ vain - ? )
vorte = wort
vid(e) [veeð-e] = wide
vride [vreeð-e] = writh
vrede [vraið-e] = wrath
væk(ke) = wake
væve [vaiv-e] = weave
vel = well / wohl
velkommen = welcome / wilkommen
...
And wh- in E corresponds to hv- in Danish, but just v- in Swedish:
hvad [vað] = was / what
( S vad [vAd] )
hvor [vor] = wo / where
( S vär [vair] )
hvorfor = wherefore / why
( S värför; also "hvi" in older D. ! )
hvem = who / whom
( S vem; also "hvo" in older D. ! )
hvilke [vil-ke] = welche / whi(l)ch
hvede = wheat
hvid [veeð] = weiss / white
hvalp = whelp
hvine [veen-e ] = whine
...
As far as disappearing, it's systematic. We can just say disappears before rounded vowels. It shifts to elsewhere.
@@scottt.shellcontinentalger2464
I see - thank you 😉