Debunking Myths About Orthodox Christians (Idol Worship?)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- In this video, Fr. Conan Gill debunks common misconceptions about the Orthodox Church.
Fr. Conan Gill
St. George Greek Orthodox Church in Albuquerque, NM
Roots of Orthodoxy is a platform dedicated to showcasing the Orthodox faith by interviewing priests around the world.
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![Are Icons Idols? [Responding to J.I. Packer's Iconoclasm]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Akkb_EsY4MM/mqdefault.jpg)
Fr. Conan was the first Orthodox priest I ever met, he was so kind and patient with my questions. I ended up moving from Albuquerque, but I can honestly say Fr. Conan and St. George Orthodox Church converted my wife and I together.
Yo! I too attended the ABQ church when I lived there and he's been one of my favorite priests and I do miss that community. By far the most welcoming communities I've come across in my life. I am glad your intro to Orthodoxy came by way of Fr. Gill
Love this channel. I’m a Protestant converting to orthodoxy
Welcome home
Great decision!
Make sure to kiss the icons or you'll be anathema!
@@matthewgarvey8123 don’t even keep pictures in your house!!
@@garrettbar2212 beautiful art can lift your spirit and inspire you but it won't save your soul because you bow and kiss it.
I’m glad your channel is really taking off. Good information
Thank you for your support! We have so much more coming soon with different priests as well ☦️
Greetings from Sofia, Bulgaria! If you ever visit, visit our historical churches from the 4th century. St. Sofia Church is where the city itself takes its name. In that church, Emperor Galerius issued the first Edict on Tolerance for Christians in 311, preceding the more famous Edict of Milan by Constantine I in 313. Tradition and history is a gift.
This channel has been huge for me on my research of Orthodoxy as I prepare to attend Orthodox liturgy and Fr. Conan has really been a blessing to listen to and learn from… then I put two and two together and realized he’s at my local church and I had no idea it was the same Fr. Conan lol. Talk about an awesome break for me.
Over the past 5 months Jesus has changed my life finding the Orthodox Church! 🙏🛐☦️📿
@@ChristianAponte-i5e waste? I’m sorry but calling the True Apostolic church the apostles set up with Jesus a “Waste” is bonkers brother. But all the love! I pray you study and open yourself up to the fullness of Christ
Same here !! I’m new to Orthodoxy and I feel awaken. (I’m a Protestant preachers daughter) and I have never felt this way until now. Orthodoxy is the truth.
This channel is going to be great for so many! I’m glad the comments have been left open even if some of the comments are hostile towards Orthodoxy. It will give people the opportunity to interact with our Church and hopefully dispel any misunderstandings. Glory to God! ☦️
Thank you. I will always leave the comments open for that reason! I appreciate your support
@@RootsofOrthodoxy It really shows a lot of courage in the face of adversity, exactly as the lord says we should all strive to possess.
God bless you and thanks for keeping on posting these.
I can say for a fact that most Protestants would rather move to the Orthodox Church than the Catholic Church. I wouldn't say Convert. Since I truly believe that Christianity is all three Sect. One has more Truth than the other. Protestant has the least no doubt. I'm just saying this out of my own understanding and not from the teaching of any Church. I may be wrong. But I'm learning still. God bless.
Thank you, Father !
Lovin these 💪🏾
Thank you!
I'm SO grateful for this channel.
May God continue to bless you all.
I am Catholic but you make me think.
I am catholic and as of now, I am an orthodox inquirer. If you have a church nearby, you should attend Vespers of Divine Liturgy and witness for yourself. God bless you!
Wish you the best guys,i am sure you will come now or later in orthodox faith!
Αυτα μαθαμε και εμεις απο τους πνευματικους μας. Η ορθοδοξία ειναι μια παντου. Μας ενωνει το κοινό ποτηριον. Ποσο με συγκινει που διαδίδεται η ορθοδοξία μας τοσο γρηγορα στην Αμερικη. Σας ευχαριστούμε, Πάτερ μου για τα ομορφα λογια και σας θαυμαζουμε για το ταξιδι που κανατε για να φτασετε στο σπιτι του Θεού. Ο Θεος να σας ευλογει.
I'm glad I found this channel. Thank God for Orthodoxy.
THANK YOU ❤
The first Liturgy I ever attended was St George. Praise be to God
Hi from Greece, we HONOR the saints depicted in the icons and we WORSHIP God through their faith and life example. Thank you for sharing your God given wisdom.
I think the Anglosaxon world, being mostly protestant, is lacking in some very basic spiritual terms and distinctions, simply because in protestantism they don't need them. It's all „worship” to them.
@@copyright8291 i feel the same...Happy and Godly New Year !!
God bless you father. Greetings from Serbia.
W page fr les go 🥂
Orthodox Priests going to the Bible is a nightmare to Protestants
This was so good.
Holy Icons are put in place by the Holy Spirit to stumble infidels and make sure they do not poison Lord's Church with their heretical ideas, namely Iconoclasm.
I may have misunderstood the question, but I took the question about Catholics gravitating towards Orthodoxy wasn't a comparison of the two but a statement of how Catholics and others found truth in Orthodoxy.
@Te.legram.Rootsof_Orthodoxy I was raised as a Catholic left and became a Baptist and spent 32 years a Baptist before returning to Catholicism. I am comfortable where I am now, but it was through viewing on Orthodoxy that convinced me to return to Catholicism. I actually had attended the College of Santa Fe and Imaculate Heart of Mary Seminary in Santa Fe before returning to New Jersey back in the mid-1970s. How we talk and about what? I have a Masters degree from a Baptist Seminary in Pennsylvania in Christian mission.
This was an excellent way to completely distract from the topic presented.
Mark 7:13 KJV
”making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.“
I love how pravoslavi are like, oh it's all but a mystery...
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And we are the only ones, who do it right.
This man is misleading you by trying to create a distinction between "true images" and "false images." The second commandment makes no such distinction. Icon veneration was never a tradition taught by the apostles, or any orthodox Christian for the first 500 years of the church. Just because there was early Christian artwork doesn't mean it was venerated. I have plenty of pictures I would never "venerate."
Here is what the early church actually said about the use of images in worship.
Hippolytus
And [the Carpocratian heretics] make counterfeit images of Christ, alleging that these were in existence at the time (during which our Lord was on earth, and that they were fashioned) by Pilate. (The Refutation of All Heresies 7.20 ANF)
Irenaeus
[The Carpocratian heretics] also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles.
(Against Heresies 1.25.6 ANF)
Clement of Alexandria
Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine. (Stromata 7.5 ANF)
Origen
It is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images. (Against Celsus 7.62-7.65 ANF)
Lactantius
Wherefore it is undoubted that there is no religion wherever there is an image. (The Divine Institutes 2.18-2.19 ANF)
I could go on with more quotes, but you get the idea. The early church universally saw images as repulsive, the work of heretics and pagans. The theology of Icon veneration actually developed from the teachings of John of Damascus in the 7th century, NOT from the teachings of Christ, the Bible, or the apostles.
It does. In the original text of the Old Testament, different words are used for "idols" (εἴδωλον) and "images" (εἰκὼν). You are a victim of your own illiteracy. Yet, being illiterate (blind) you dare to teach your illiteracy to the others.?
@@johnnyd2383 Here is the text of Exodus 20 from the Septuagint (I assume you consider this authoritative over the Hebrew because you are EO).
4 οὐ ποιήσεις σεαυτῷ εἴδωλον, οὐδὲ παντὸς ὁμοίωμα, ὅσα ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τῇ γῇ κάτω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς.
It says, "Do not make an idol for yourself, nor any ὁμοίωμα (likeness, image, form, etc) which is in the heaven above, in the earth below, or in the waters under the earth."
Notice the word ὁμοίωμα qualifies any image, statue, work of art, etc, not just idols.
The next verse is also instructive
5 οὐ προσκυνήσεις αὐτοῖς, οὐδὲ μὴ λατρεύσεις αὐτοῖς· ἐγὼ γάρ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, Θεὸς ζηλωτής, ἀποδιδοὺς ἁμαρτίας πατέρων ἐπὶ τέκνα, ἕως τρίτης καὶ τετάρτης γενεᾶς τοῖς μισοῦσί με
Do not bow down (venerate) to them, nor worship them. For I am the Lord your God, a jealous God, counting the sins of the fathers to the children until the third and forth generation of those who hate me.
Notice the word προσκυνήσεις is mentioned here (bow down). This is the actual Greek word the OC uses to try and distinguish the act of icon veneration from worship given to God alone. Notice the 2nd commandment specifically prohibits this.
@@andyontheinternet5777 The word ὁμοίωμα appears 6 times in the New Testament and in the KJV is rendered "likeness" "made like to" "similitude" and "shape". Otherwise, the noun comes from the adjective homoios, "like". Keep coping.!
@@johnnyd2383 STRONGS NT 3667: ὁμοίωμα
ὁμοίωμα, ὁμοιώματος, τό (ὁμοιόω), the Sept. for תְּמוּנָה, דְּמוּת, צֶלֶם, תַּבְנִית; properly, that which has been made after the likeness of something, hence,
a. a figure, image, likeness, representation: Psalm 105:20 (); 1 Macc. 3:48; of the image or shape of things seen in a vision, Revelation 9:7 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 604 (562)) (Ezekiel 1:5, 26, 28, etc. Plato, in Parmen., p. 132 d., calls finite things ὁμοιώματα, likenesses as it were, in which τά παραδειγματα, i. e. αἱ ἰδέαι or τά εἴδη, are expressed).
b. likeness i. e. resemblance (inasmuch as that appears in an image or figure), frequent such as amounts almost to equality or identity: τίνος, Romans 6:5; Romans 8:3 (on which see σάρξ, 3 at the end (cf. Weiss, Biblical Theol. etc. §§ 69 e. note, 78 c. note)); Philippians 2:7 (see μορφή); εἰκόνος, a likeness expressed by an image, i. e. an image, like, Romans 1:23; ἐπί τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ, in the same manner in which Adam transgressed a command of God (see ἐπί, B. 2 a. εε.), Romans 5:14. Cf. the different views of this word set forth by Holsten, Zum Evangel. des Paulus u. Petrus, p. 437ff and (especially for examples) in the Jahrbüch. f. protest. Theol. for 1815, p. 451ff, and by Zeller, Zeitschr. f. wissensch. Theol. for 1870, p. 301ff. (Synonym: cf. εἰκών, at the end; Schmidt, chapter 191.)
@@andyontheinternet5777 Are you citing Protestants' sources to vindicate your iconoclastic heresy.? AHAHAHAHAHAH.... what a clown.! Keep coping.!
Catholics and Orthodox belong to the same church from the beginning so their teachings are almost the same except for few. They were splitted during the Great Schism 1054 but remain united as One Catholic Apostolic Church. Hoping and praying for unity one day.
Nuh... Latin heretics fell off of the Church 1000 years ago and there are no signs of them coming back to the sound doctrines they once held while they were Orthodox during first 1000 years.
Their teachings are very different and they are not united as one. I converted from RC to EO because of those differences. I hope more RCs come across - Pope Francis is doing a great job with that
Beautiful ❤
I’ve never been in a single Protestant church that flippantly serves The bread and wine. That is nowhere near the norm ☺️ blessings
Yes, flippant is very rare, but I would say a rather superficial understanding is very common. And while I wouldn't use the word flippant, I would say that "Casual communion" is actually fairly common, especially in the charismatic fellowships.
Way to mislead and not answer the question. The bible verse doesn't just say "do not worship graven images full stop. It goes on. The full statement is: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" Why did you leave the rest of that out? Or maybe you forgot it.
There's nothing in that statement that implies graven means unholy as you're insinuating.
So answer the question again...why do you worship icons which are clearly graven images. You do more than just respect them, you put them on your altars, you pray to them, you light candles and incense around them, you carry them held up high, YOU PRAY to them. How is this not worship? Please enlighten us with an honest answer.
The Ark of the covenant had cherubs on it, and I think you need to really think about what worship actually means. We carry the flag up on high during ceremonies in our country, is that worship or veneration? We have pictures of our family up on walls, and when they die. Sometimes we kiss them because we miss them. Is that worship or veneration?
Icons are not Idols, this was already settled in the 7th ecumenical council. What you think is worship has been the traditions of the church since its inception, it wasn’t until the west threw out tradition that now everything that even honors our church fathers is seen as worship.
@@seanmurphy5854 That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I really wanted clarity on that because Orthodox is really quite a beautiful tradition and people forget it was the original church.
@@phoenixoliviacopy2727 Dont get me wrong, some people can definitely take it too far, to were it does border on outright worship. But they are a minority and already slipping spiritually.
@@seanmurphy5854 Thank you brother.
Even if the first/second commandment is taken that literally, most icons are not technically GRAVEN images but paintings and drawings and mosaics, and therefore there should not be any problem with them. (Of course we do not see any serious problem with statues either, but unlike in Catholicism statues do not feel like our thing... it leads us to focus too much on this world instead of eternity.) And as @seanmurphy5854 explained, the Israelites made many graven and painted images (cherubim, the bronze serpent, bulls, pomegranates etc.) for the Tabernacle by God's very command, and there is the crucial difference between veneration and worshipping.
If it's a picture on the wall, it's not an icon, by my reckoning. What that is, is a family portrait.
The very moment you enter into prayer, or ritual ideation, or beckoning. You have crossed the line.
This is why, we aren't to do it at- f*king all - .
3:50 Tradition. 😊 I get that. However, it is such a homebody thing to do. I could, maybe, carry one icon on the road and it would still end up a napkin because weight kills.
Its a grey area.
It's a grey area one has to be self conscious of always. Because you can do it in your mind and heart passively and not even realize.
So, as a lazy person? It sounds dumb. But, being lazy, is dumb. So, we gonna wrassle?!
Icons are not Holy
Maybe in the realm of iconoclastic heretics that are under the anathema anyway. In Orthodoxy, they are holy as they are images of the Saints and/or Lord who are holy.
@@johnnyd2383How do you know some of these so called saints aren’t even in heaven?
@@HighCarbDiabeticV We know they are with the Lord as He gave to us - His Bride - The Church, power to bind and loose (Matt 16,19). So, when we, His Church, decide someone is a Saint, that person is indeed the Saint. How we make such decision is complete different topic.
BTW: If you are diabetic, go carnivore and heal yourself. Many have done so..
Gonna go to divine liturgy
The Communion of Saints is real, yes. Yet - the extreme attributions of the Marian prayers, as if she is God, not merely asking her to pray for us, but praying to her, as well as the anathemas of the 7th council which condemn anyone who does not affectionately kiss icons - that is where it gets dicey and unsupported by Scripture. It's not about the saluting of icons, similar to saluting the flag or officers in the military, that is problematic, but what the oft used prayers really say and the degree of them, prayers to created entities. Too many gray areas, which are not that hazy really. Even John, in the Revelation, was so overwhelmed and was reminded by the powerful angel that he the angel was not to be worshipped. Twice. "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” Rev. 19:10. Then again Rev 22:8,9 reads similarily. Theosis is valid, but does not mean we will eventually be worshipped as God, but are to become more and more Christlike by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Concerning the Eucharist, I think when Jesus tells us to partake of His body and blood in remembrance of Him, “in remembrance of Him” is key.
I don't think there's a key to the Eucharist. Remembering Jesus while eating His body is a way of saying to have reverence while He gives us Himself. It's not some kind of spell where faith needs to be present for an alchemical change to occur. It's present by the Grace of God through the authority given to the Priest and that's it. We step forward with Love and Fear while angels Tremble.
You know what the key is? That people say "I think...."
I'm struggling with this one:
4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them
Icons used in EO worship do not depict the divine nature, they draw attention to the incarnation - the human nature
@adrianc1264 the incarnation being "on the earth" and we "bow down to" images of them.
@@nubSawace Translation of that Bible verse in English is incorrect. Original Greek word used is εἴδωλον which means - idols, while Greek word for images is εἰκὼν (icon). So, the proper translation shall read: "You shall not make for yourself an idols in the form of anything in heaven...".
@johnnyd2383 original language is hebrew, literal translation:
"Not you shall make for yourself a carved image or any likeness that [is] in heaven above or that is in earth beneath or that in the water under the earth".
No likeness. I really think the only way around this verse is if Jesus somewhere explicitly makes an exception to this. The commandment is very clear.
@@nubSawace Nuh... Septuagint is OT Bible translation of 70 rabbis into Greek language we Orthodox use. It is most reliable source as later they messed up, not just the text, but books as well, in the light of raising Christianity. It is very indicative as to why rabbis used Greek word for "idol" in that particular place. Similar attempt to mess up the Christianity is their claim that prophecy of Isaiah talks about "young women" but their own translation in Septuagint reveals true meaning being in fact "virgin". In the end.. do you know that Jewish language has been re-invented in 19th century as it was lost in the mean time.? So you believe in their 19th century invention of modern Hebrew. How nice of you.!
What. It doesn’t even say in scripture that you’re saved by faith alone. Where have I heard differently? Oh yeah, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2 8-9. What are you even talking about.
Phrase "faith alone" is nowhere to be found in the Bible. It is heretical 16th century man made invention.
Ephesians 2: 10 - created for good works. Also, Satan himself and the demons all have faith in Christ, to no avail. Impure praise from God's enemies is not enough for salvation (Acts 16: 16-18).
❤❤✝️❤️
Return to orthodoxy.
Question, does the Orthodox church require all who belong to the church to kiss certain things or you are not allowed in the church ?
The anathemas not only require you kiss the icons, it also require you to shun anyone who doesn't
No you're not required at all. I dont kiss because im just a germaphobe but noone cares.
@@andyontheinternet5777 wrong
@@Freiheit1232 Below is the text from "anathema section" of Nicaea II. I concede the word "kiss" does not appear, although you are required to "salute" and "venerate" images, and are forbidden to communicate with those who reject image veneration. Either way, this was a terrible decision that literally forced idolatry onto the church.
Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.
Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.
Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.
Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.
Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.
Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.
Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.
@@andyontheinternet5777you don’t understand what anathema actually means or the context behind 2nd Nicea, clearly.
What a powerful message.
What a deceiver on the level of Satan himself!
0:50 I want to be clear that my intention is to help not show disrespect. I was baffled to hear an educated man make such an egregious grammatical mistake. I think his message would be more effective if he conjugated the verb “to be” correctly, e.g. “there are false images” not “there’s false images”. Also, It’s “prowess” not “prowness”. Thank you and God bless.
That pesky pea really bothers you through the twenty mattresses and twenty featherbeds...
❤❤🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻☦️☦️☦️
🙏🏿☦️
I found (and still find) myself confronted with the question of child baptism & communion when I married my wife. She comes from a community calling themselves Catholic (not Roman-Catholic). I myself have made quite a journey around several (Protestant) and modern international churches. Though I love the preachings and community of my current church, and believe that they truly are passionate about Jesus and finding the truth, they do not even understand the question about the true meaning of the communion and her holiness. When I dig into the topic, and if you consider the church tradition from the beginning, it makes totally sense that bread&wine literally changes into the body&blood of Christ.
Indeed. But it doesn't mean it can't also remain bread and wine. Saint Paul said it is bread and wine and body and blood which are all present.
What he's missing is the difference in cultural upbringings. I grew up in a southern US Protestant background. We were taught how horrific idolatry ended for the Old Testament Hebrews so if there's even an inkling of what appears to be idolatry they'll avoid it.
In other words... you have set pendulum to the opposite extreme side of the OT idolatry, while truth is in between.
Because we dont even know what true idolatry is.... who is the last pagan you met that sacrificed animals to statues?
Love the Orthodox Church, but it’s really hard to see it keep trying to talk their way out of this blatant pagan influenced tradition. Maybe you kiss your wife, but you don’t parade your wife in front of the congregation and have them all bow down 3 times before her and kiss her, do you?
Note one thing - all churches who have Apostolic origins use icons... only Protestants who do NOT have Apostolic origins are Iconoclastic heretics, including Muslims who also do not have Apostolic origins and Jews alike. Think about it.
I’m sorry “graven” doesn’t have anything to do with something being “false”.
You haven't debunked anything until you explain why bowing and kissing an image is imperative to one's salvation.
That applies to the members of the Lord's Bride - Eastern Orthodox Church. To the heretics who are NOT in the Lord's Church anathema is in force, meaning - when flood comes, you are outside o the Ark and what happens to you is your own problem. We are commanded by the Lord's Church to venerate icons. Lord Himself who is Head of His Body - The Church, He established 2000 years ago, commanded us to do so in Holy Spirit. So, don't bother... try to build a raft in hope that you will survive the flood (God's Judgment) instead.
@@johnnyd2383 Everytime you respond you sound more unhinged and delusional. The Holy Spirit would never require idolatry as a prerequisite for salvation. You sound like you're vaccinated.
You're late for your booster
You call Jesus a raft and your hodgepodge of men who wear dresses and kiss each other's hands as the ark.
I don't think they claim it's part of the salvation process. It's just something they do. They believe that the dead who have gone to heaven are still aware of what's happening on Earth, and can intercede for them. Or at least that's my understanding. I'm not Orthodox, but I have friends that are.
@@johnnyd2383The church is the called, one can be saved and not a member of the Orthodox organisation.
John 6 not Matthew
You don't see the fruits of the spirit unless it is of someone who is in the Orthodox church otherwise they are deceived into thinking they are following Christ. No one is a Christian unless they are Orthodox all others are anathema. Just be honest.
Do you know anybody outside of the Noah's Ark that got saved.? Just be honest.
Nope, and I hope you know none of those guys in their quadruple starched collars with long robes and fancy regalia would have added an iota of their precious energy to the physical building of an ark. What is the connection? That the Orthodox are the ark of salvation to all mankind? It is the beauty of the real good news of the gospel that is truly unique to the human experience not the same old treadmill to approval and acceptance that all religions teach.
@@matthewgarvey8123 Ark was a foreshadow of the Lord's Church. If you read Acts 2,47 it may... just may... click to you. But, I doubt.
Yes early believers called the church. It is the connection all those who are found in Christ all over the world have to one another. The teaching that only Orthodox church members are accepted by the Lord is ridiculous and furthermore the Orthodox curse all other believers as being utterly deceived.
@@matthewgarvey8123 Lord created His glorious Bride, His Church, His Body 2000 years ago. He is coming to pickup His Bride and He is not a polygamist. If you read parable of foolish and smart virgins (Matt 25) it may... just may.. click to you. But, I doubt.
What if a person doesn’t drink alcohol?
When the gifts are consecrated it's no longer Alcohol. I know alcoholics who take the Eucharist and are just fine.
@@anothercat1300 , When alcohol - wine is consecrated it's no longer alcohol? So how come I still experienced the effect of alcohol? Was this because the wine wasn't properly consecrated perhaps?
De ce ,ai fi vrut să simți gustul Sângelui Lui Hristos, ceea ce este de fapt, și nu gustul vinului? De-a lungul istoriei și chiar și mai recent , se cunosc cazuri când preoți sau credincioși s-au îndoit că acolo este Trupul și Sângele Domnului cu adevărat, iar Dumnezeu prin minune le-a arătat cu adevărat în potir sânge și carne. Ei s-au îngrozit , apoi acestea s-au transformat din nou în pâine și vin, ca să se poată împărtăși cu ele. Nu contează dacă ești alcoolic, acolo în potir este cu adevărat Hristos, pe care-l luăm "spre tămăduirea trupului și a sufletului", deci cu atât mai bine!
@@anothercat1300It is alcohol though, I could take it to a lab and it would test positive
There is no difference between worship and veneration found in the scripture and no difference as they are found in the ancient Hebrew culture that received the commandments from God. To me, it is clear that there is a reason we see no Hebrew "veneration" of icons of biblical pillars like Moses, Noah, Isaiah, etc. This is because the understanding has always been that anything like what EO calls iconography is, in fact, idolatry.
Note one thing - all churches who have Apostolic origins use icons... only Protestants who do NOT have Apostolic origins are Iconoclastic heretics, including Muslims who also do not have Apostolic origins and Jews alike. Think about it.
So when Joshua the prophet and King David and his son Solomon fell down before the Ark in Joshua 7:6 and 1 Chronicles 28:2, they were actually worshipping the Ark and God didn't immediately correct them?...
@@johnnyd2383 Show me one citation from anyone in the first 500 years of the church in favor of icon veneration.
@@andyontheinternet5777 I can show you veneration of the icons in the OT times... (Ps 99,4) and (Ps 132,7) explicitly command to "bow down to" the Ark (1 Chr 28,2). We see concrete examples of this not only when Joshua and Israel’s elders bow down before the Ark (Josh 7,6), but also in (1 Sam 5,3-4) when the idolatrous statue of Dagon bows down to the Ark. The contrast here is quite striking - the false image (idol) bows to the true image (icon).
@@andyontheinternet5777look up Dura-Europos synagogue
He criticizes worshiping status, power, etc., like pointing to other errors in worship does not make his idol worship to be correct. This is necromancy and sorcery to pray to, bow before, or to kiss an image. Worship of "Tradition" or a "Church" is a poor substitute for Christianity.
It is interesting to note that iconoclastic heresy reigns only in those religious circles that have NO connections to apostolic church. Those who have roots in apostolic church, like EOC, RCC, OOC all have and use icons... This once more proves how Protestantism is rubbish...
"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."
Voltaire
Not religion, religion have others,orthodox have faith.
Well follow Voltaire then and let us know how it works out.
@@TheMOV13 Simple question: Animals want to live their lives just like u do. U (a theist) thank God for giving life to u & also for giving life to animals for u to take their lives & eat them. Don't u see how they've tricked you to believe in an imaginary God by fooling u to arrogantly ignoring your hypocrisy & narcissism?
Why did you even comment? Why did you even bother commenting? Did you gain something from it?
@@michaliskleimenidis
It's a simple question I asked, but unfortunately you neither are answering the question honestly nor are saying anything intelligent.
One reason for a child to receive the Eucharist after baptism is because the child has become a full member of the Church. The Eucharist is nourishment for body and soul, and it would be irrational to not allow a child to receive it.
Welcome to club brother
I think we can be pretty confident that the bread and the wine are not Christ's Body and Blood until at least the Divine Liturgy. In the non-orthodox west, it's as soon as the Words of Institution are spoken (and they further rationalize it with transubstantiation). In the east, of course it is more obscure, but there is at least the epiclesis after the Words of Christ.
But you can find justification by faith alone throughout the fathers themselves. It seems that many Orthodox don't understand what the claim of faith alone even is. We are not at all the post to good works. Good works are necessarily present in Saving faith.
“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
St. Clement of Rome
First Epistle
"They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God."
Ambrosiaster
Commentary on Romans
"But what is the 'law of faith'? It is, being saved by grace. Here [Paul] shows God's power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only."
St. John Chrysostom
Homily 7 on Romans
"Let us then give thanks, that we belong to them that are being saved, and not having been able to save ourselves by works, were saved by the gift of God. But in giving thanks, let us not do this in words only, but in works and actions. For this is the genuine thanksgiving, when we do those things whereby God is sure to be glorified, and flee from those from which we have been set free."
St. John Chrysostom
Homily 18 on Romans
"Now, this is the perfect and consummate glory in God: not to exult in one's own justice, but, recognizing oneself as lacking true justice, to be justified by faith in Christ alone."
St. Basil the Great
Homily 20, On Humility
"Wherefore let no man glory in works, for by his works no man shall be justified, for he that is just hath a free gift, for he is justified by the Bath. It is faith then which delivers by the blood of Christ, for Blessed is the man to whom sin is remitted, and, pardon granted."
St. Ambrose of Milan
Letter 73
What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores ([κατασαπέντας]) of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, 'That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.' Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith."
St. John Chrysostom
Homily 7 on Romans
"We must moreover notice this too. For when He had well enforced our position with regard to our faith, He straightway adds the memorial of the promise at the end of ages, and then ordains the remaining laws, Honour your father and your mother, thou shalt not kill, and so on: that we may not think we are justified by works, nor look for the ungrudged bounteousness of God as the fruit of our own toils, but that we must have it of faith."
St. Cyril of Alexandria
Commentary on John
"For 'all men come short of the glory of God,' and are not justified of themselves, but by the advent of the Lord,-they who earnestly direct their eyes towards His light."
St. Irenaeus
Against Heresies, Book IV
"For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!"
Mathetes
Epistle to Diognetus
"What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Paul revealed that Abraham had glory before God not because he was circumcised nor because he abstained from evil, but because he believed in God. For that reason he was justified, and he would receive the reward of praise in the future."
Ambrosiaster
Commentary on Paul’s Epistles
"For clearly it is not through praiseworthy actions but by faith alone that we obtain mystical blessings. It is for this reason that the divine apostle has also proclaimed: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God⸺not the result of works, so that no one may boast."
Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466)
"Piety consists in rejecting doubt, righteousness in believing, salvation in confessing. Trifle not with ambiguities, be not stirred up to vain babblings, do not debate in any way the powers of God, or impose limits upon His might, cease searching again and again for the causes of unsearchable mysteries: confess rather that Jesus is the Lord, and believe that God raised Him from the dead; herein is salvation. What folly is it to depreciate the nature and character of Christ, when this alone is salvation, to know that He is the Lord. Again, what an error of human vanity to quarrel about His resurrection, when it is enough for eternal life to believe that God raised Him up. In simplicity then is faith, in faith righteousness, and in confession true godliness. For God does not call us to the blessed life through arduous investigations. He does not tempt us with the varied arts of rhetoric. The way to eternity is plain and easy; believe that Jesus was raised from the dead by God and confess that He is the Lord. Let no one therefore wrest into an occasion for impiety, what was said because of our ignorance. It had to be proved to us, that Jesus Christ died, that we might live in Him."
St. Hilary of Poitiers
On the Trinity, Book 10
"Because faith alone justifies [quia fides sola iustificat]...publicans
and prostitutes will be first in the kingdom of heaven."
Hilary of Poitiers
Commentary on Matthew XXI.15
“Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he (Paul) shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed.
St. John Chrysostom
Homily 3 on Galatians
Whatever church your in isn't the Church started by Christ in 33 AD. At best it's 400 years old started by some guy In Britain, Germany or Switzerland.
No matter how much you try to quote-mine the Church fathers, they were not part of your ecumenist church of different sects, but of the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Orthodox Church from 33AD to now.
As much as you are serious, you are as equal and serious as the pentecostal speaking in tongues and jumping on the floor. in Protestantism you have no normative authority to excommunicate them or bind anyone...
Hi Dave, maybe it’s you that doesn’t understand the depth of Faith one needs to receive justification.
Our works, is obedience.
@@gritsteel3225 , We respect the believers of the eastern Orthodox Church, but the truth commands us to say that the doctrine that this "right-faithful" church proclaims is not entirely biblical and not in accordance with what The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us.
By doing good works, one does not receive the reward of being labeled righteous. The Bible clearly teaches us that the Pharisees lived strictly according to the law and by following their traditions. The Lord Jesus Christ God's only Son said; "Verily, verily, I say unto you, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The biggest problem is that there are christians who are born in the flesh and still are staying in the flesh. Be a Born again Christian and have a refreshing relation with The Only True God and The Lord Jesus Christ. + get rid of the evil legion.
@@DOA011970
Your response has huge holes!
I’ll point them out.
Give Examples of what the Orthodox do that’s not Biblical?
Can you also give an example on works?
So according to your doctrinal beliefs can you lose your salvation?
Why is everyone can see you are worshipping graven images except you.
It's pretty obvious what you were trying to do with this comment. You already have a conclusion. Please depart, but return to The Church in the future if you end up having any genuine interest in learning.
What is the history between the first church and catholic church?
I’m new to Orthodoxy but from what I understand, around 1054 AD the Bishop of Rome (who was traditionally accorded a greater respect for that position) changed wording in the Nicene Creed without the council of Bishops. There were other schismatic issues taking place before that iirc but that was the straw that broke the camel’s back - that no one man (Papal Authority) has ultimate divine authority on earth. There were many popes especially early on that were incredibly Godly men and the rampant corruption and distortion within the Roman Catholic Church didn’t really begin to my knowledge for a few hundred years after the split. Hope that helps. I’m sure there’s also fantastic Orthodox resources online/youtube that can answer that question much more thoroughly and accurately
@@wesleyerickson8661 It's true bro but i learned that the word catholic (meaning: church of the whole) was first used by bisschop Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD and in that time Catholic churches were refered to as orthodox.
@@Damienoos I assume in your initial comment what you mean by Catholic Church as compared to “the first church” to be a distinction Roman Catholic as opposed Orthodox?
Bishop Ignatias of Antioch was referring to the whole church like you said. The Church is the body of Christ, unified not to be splintered. So initially to my understanding Catholic meant just…the church around the world as one. There were no “denominations” only emerging due to schism. I hope I’m understanding correctly 😅
@@wesleyerickson8661 Generaly people translate catholic as universal but 'of the whole' as to refer to being one with all the early churches around the world makes more sense to me.
Around the 800s the Roman Patriarchate started adding innovations that are incompatible with the faith. This eventually led the Roman church departing from the Catholicity of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church around 1054AD. Rome continued to innovate with the Gregorian reforms and later scholasticism.
So basically it’s an easy religion and all the thinking has been done for you. That’ll be a deep faith.
I Agree. Protestantism is an easy religion.
The True Religion founded by Christ is simple but it is not easy. Don't kid yourself.
The depth of the Christian faith is bottomless. It has everything a simpleton would want and everything an intellectual would want.
@@shobudski6776, True! because even a small child would understand the goods news, but strange enough there are blinded adults who have a misunderstanding of The Word and His words in the bible. They are missing out something very important.
So many myths in so-called Christianity, another of the Lords Supper til he comes, well he came in AD70. I have a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity'.
What is your religion then.?
@@johnnyd2383 baptised CofE KJV.
I am a so-called Christian, but I believe I, like others who have the Holy Spirit, am a Born Again Jew. The only authentic name for a follower of Jesus.
The true religion comes from Abraham inherited by Jesus as the seed of Abraham, but Christianity divorced from its roots in the 2nd century.
@@simonskinner1450 Do you believe that Bible is God's inspired book that contains Truth from the front to the back page.?
@@johnnyd2383 yes, the front being the OT prophecy, and the back being the NT witness to its fulfilment, the religion and Torah of Abraham realised by the witness of John.
@@simonskinner1450 Good. Thanks for clarification. Since you stated that "Christianity divorced from its roots in the 2nd century" I assume you believe that God's Church ceased to exist sometime 2nd century. Is that what you meant.?
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