🙂 Figured if the goal was to make it chatter.... might as well really give it the juice and chatter :) To be fair, the WOC is still pretty light which makes the IPM look a little less ridiculous... still very high though :)
Awesome. I've always wondered what chatter looks like. It would be cool to see a macro shot of any of the shop tools that move really fast like an air nibbler or something. I also wondered what it looks like when you accidentally run a lathe spindle in reverse (or mill). Not that I would have ever done anything like that, I'm purely asking for a friend that removed a substantial amount of material wondering why the knobs were so hard to turn...
Yay thanks for stopping by! So funnily enough, I think my first milling video on YT I was running the endmill in reverse and really struggling to turn the handles, not understanding what was happening. Doh :) I just might have to investigate that, yunno, for science.
@@BreakingTaps I'm pretty much convinced that all the channels I like also like watching the same channels I like... P.S. I feel like this totally changes my perspective on chatter..... had no clue a rigid looking set up like that would oscillate so much! I mean I could see the endmill and or tool holder and entire head of the machine deflecting that much during chatter but had no idea the work and entire machine table and vise would... crazy
Heck yeah! BTW, Steve Mould did an interesting video on video motion enhancement algorithms that modify the contrast of videos to accentuate motion using lower speed cameras. You guys could experiment with that for some good high speed footage.
I think it's been said lots of other places (AvE comes to mind): "everything is a spring." It didn't make any sense to me until I thought through what makes a spring-pass even possible. This video really drives the point home.
@@zuthalsoraniz6764 sharp corner not only sharp inside corner. At the sharp side of every knive it is just a radius, they may only be measured in nanometers or so but they are there.
Such an underrated channel. Pushing home-manufacturing to a new level with every video. Your editing has improved massively as well over time. Best of luck on your TH-cam journey
Also appreciate the note about editing... it's so hard! I'm humbled everytime I watch a really good video with editing. Slowly getting better, trying to spend more time on it since it makes such a big difference imo.
I really like your "reading the tea leaves" metaphor. It very well encapsulates what it feels like to look at something that most people would see as nothing but noise and try to find patterns and meaning in it. Troubleshooting seems to be intuition as much as logic sometimes when our brains manage to find patterns learned from lots of experience while our conscious minds can't quite grasp them.
As an actual CNC machinst, I can tell you that even the biggest and heaviest machines move around like this. Not as much, and not as fast, but your regular Haas mill is a limp noodle compared to dedicated heavy iron for HSM production machining. "Everything is a spring" is indeed correct, and everything that has clearance, has slop to move around. The second thing I want to mention is that your best stepover for "less than ridged enough" tooling is usually 33% and 66%, where the cutting forces want to pull the cutter parallel with the direction of feed, instead of into or away from the work. This tends to give you a more perpendicular cut, because the tool isn't flexing to one side, and can give you a more stable cut because the direction of the cutting forces is countered by the feeding forces of the machine and should have less backlash to move around in.
This is one of the most unique and informative videos I have ever seen on machining. Clearly, the average machinist does not have the equipment nor ability to do this depth of analysis. Thank you very much for sharing it.
Still watching this video 3 years later. There's a wealth of knowledge to gain from it, both about your machine and the effects it has on machines in general. Once again thank you.
That is amazing. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes and have seen the movement of the machine like that at the end. It’s pretty cool seeing it in slo mo
In a "proper" cnc machine all you do is shift the failure point around to different places. Care and maintenance of tool holders and spindle taper. Pull studs. Draw bar springs. Collets or whatever tool holding. Tool balance/runout. Thrust bearing maintenance. Work holding. That's all right off the top of my head. Good cut parameters are exactly as important. The ragged edge of max productivity is every bit as razor thin, the bar is just set a tiny bit higher.
This is the stuff of universities and institutes. Very educational! I think that the factor , which additionally plays a big role, but is hard to estimate for yourself is the effect of temperature. It isn't constant throughout, but we all know how it could worsen a metals property. Great video!
One of the best things that has happened to me today is discovering this channel. I sat there with my mouth open at being able to see and understand chatter. Thank you!!
Very good point, I should have been a bit more precise in my wording! Actually want to do a followup showing the table and gantry moving around, maybe with tracking points or something. Still trying to figure out the best way to quantify it.
This is honestly intriguing, I always thought the contrary to what you said in this video about chatter. I always figured that less heavy of a cut would cause less chatter and a lighter cut would cause less chatter. Awesome video.
Heavy cut creates a greater cutting force which bends the endmill tool and ultimately breaks it. Light cut won't but allows it to just oscillate that leaves lines on surface.
Finally have an answer for the problems I had during the 25 years I worked as a Tool Maker/Machinist. I was too busy dodging chips to see the cutter "dance" about. I hope this video will be seen by all the younger people coming into the trade. THANK YOU!
"what NOT to do with an endmill", great high-speed footage! I assumed chatter was just bouncing *off* the part, creating just a lateral vibration - it never occurred to me that it would be a circular oscillation. But considering the bit is spinning, I suppose I should have expected that. Thanks for the vid!
I would LOVE to see this done with all different types of tool holders to see the difference between them. Do ER collet, hydraulic holder, slim fit, shrink fit, rego fit, etc.
Really great video! I'm always babying my lathe because I thought I was helping the machine, but from this it looks like I'm actually making the surface finish worse! Time to try some new feeds and speeds.
Thanks! And yeah, totally agree... I'm thinking back to prior projects and wondering if things would have gone smoother had I just given it a bit more juice, instead of dialing it back 🤔
When I was machining I didn't have that problem. I was always pushing the tool/machine to its limit. It's a lot easier to do that when it's someone else's equipment 😁
When machining long shafts it’s often common in industry to increase the roughing feed rate to the point where it almost looks like you’re screw cutting the shaft to reduce chatter 😊. Higher engagement usually stops the job rattling around and makes the work quicker!
Wow, I always cringe when I hear chatter and in my head I'm just imagining that super hardened metal against metal, but actually seeing what it's doing is crazy. Really great analysis, too. Haven't seen this channel before but I'm glad I stumbled across it.
Thanks for this great video. It would be cool to see a slow-mo comparison between conventional milling and climb milling, and to see how the differences in surface finish are formed.
That was fantastic!!!! Thank you! I went into this thinking 'oh cool a slow mo video of an endmill' and ended with a whole new perspective on what the cutting edge requires.
I also wanted to ask, when your spindle bogged down and the VFD eventually shut off, if you had a more powerful spindle (5kw), that cut would of then been possible, no?
Thanks! I think a more powerful spindle might have done the trick, although I suspect there might be a configuration issue with my VFD too. Someone else in the comments ran the numbers and the spindle should have been pulling under the 2.2kW limit... so there might be a threshold on my VFD that isn't configured correctly, or maybe I tripped the thermal cutout. Not sure :)
This is just some crazy video analysis. TH-cam's algorithm sent me your way somehow and I am so glad they did. I've always been looking for someone who knew machining AND All this slow mo videography stuff. The way you can measure certain things like how much the spindle moved is extremely helpful. Subbed.
I just getting started in CNC with my 3018 "pro" I got on amazon, it's most definitely a toy. The easy-bake oven of CNC routers 🤣 But its interesting to know this, that shallow cuts are not without their disadvantages.
Absolutely fantastic work. Your play by play is super useful. Regarding cut depth... insight + (slowmo) sight is a 10 outta 10! More of this kind of skoolin for desktop amateurs PLEASE!
As a cutting tool maker, this video is fantastic. I love it. You're talking about things that are so fast we'd never see it without a camera like this and therefore remains a "black magic"/"voodoo" area for most machinists. As a first time viewer, I'm off to see what else your channel has!
All about finding the happy medium and making sure your fixture doesn’t move. And good quality tool. I used to be a CNC operator. I could tell when a tool was about to go from the sound, any burn marks the tool made, and the quality of the cut. It is fascinating to see it in slow motion.
This stuff is more complex than I would have imagined. I always thought that less is more on a finishing pass, but clearly this is not true and there is a scientific optimal setting. Thank goodness wood is forgiving. But now I have more knowledge when I try can cut aluminum (6061) on my StepCraft CNC router. Thank you for sharing this knowledge! I would love to see the aluminum welding video as this is the exact issue I had last time I tried to mill some aluminum. It was a 4 flute endmill that previously worked well and I figured it was just dull. Now I think it was simple 2 many flutes, the wrong settings, chips not clearing fast enough, and the endmill was probably dull. Thanks
I've seen quite a bit of machine porn but this shit is just gorgeous! And also educational. Very well done! Keep it coming! ...and nice choice of music, too!
Wow, this is great information! Watching the setup move into a resonant frequency range before blowing apart makes a lot of things suddenly make more sense.
I really appreciate the trouble you have gone to in this video. I operate a small turret mill which has been fitted out with ball screws and stepper motors and I have been using it to cut aluminium with mixed success. Using HSS 4 mm or 6mm 3 and 4 flute cutters I have had problems with chips sticking to the cutters. Whilst using compressed air to move the chips out of the toolpath I have had some end mill failures when aluminium has become welded to one of the flutes. This causes deflection and drag sometimes enough to break the HSS endmill. It would be interesting to see in slow motion how many times an edge picks up material and how many times it is shed before causing breakage. I suspect that it happens more than I can see at normal speed.
Thanks! I definitely err on the side of too timid with most of my cuts...then occasionally get adventurous and go too extreme and break a tool... Whoops :)
@@BreakingTaps I don't know if you already know this, but direction of feed makes a huge difference. The cuts you made in this video are what is known as a climb cut because the end mill tries to climb out of the cut. If you reverse the feed direction, you get what is known as a conventional cut. A climb cut can take a very substantial cut without overloading because it takes a large bite and peels it away, ejecting out the rear of the cut. A conventional cut scoops forward into the direction of feed, ejecting the chip out the front. It can be easily over loaded, causing it to pull into the workpiece and stall and break the cutter, but when used for a fine finish pass, it can leave a very nice finish. Typically, you should make a roughing pass with a climb cut and a finish pass with a conventional cut. This will increase both your accuracy and your surface finish.
Fantastic analysis! A picture is worth a thousand end mills " well maybe not" but at least a couple. I have wanted to see chatter for a long time to heighten my awareness of the circumstances that create it. All kidding aside thanks a million for posting this video and take care!
Great video analysis, It does clearly show that the router is not rigid enough for those cutting parameters, and the climb cutting is making it even worse. It was cool to see how whole setup is moving during the cut. I was amazed to see that end mill didn't snap right away on such machine/setup shifts.
BT, very nice. I've been running machines since the1970's and this is the first time I've ever seen this. Thanks for the video and yes I will show this around.
This is great footage. I’m a professional CNC machinist, and I train the new guys. One of the demonstrations I do is take a 1/2” steel rod and a 1/2” carbide end mill and hit them both with a 2 lb sledge hammer while held vertically in a vise. The steel bends and bends on each hit and the carbide snaps right off, usually on the first hit. It is always shocking to see. It’s interesting to me that .050” or more step over was too much, that’s where we get good finish passes on our machines. Fun note, more tool length engaged usually is “free” when considering horsepower and will normally result in a better finish and longer tool life.
Awesome video, seeing chatter explains a lot. Seen it on large machines also not using right tool for the job. Amazing how much the mill, spindle and vice move.
Really cool footage! Cutting process vibrations is a really interesting topic. Solving a chatter problem is not easy to solve without good knowledge of the dynamic stiffness and damping (of the tool side and the fixture side).
great images. Had a Fadal at my last job that no one knew how to use so I learned how so I am familiar with feed and depth parameters. I also did some high speed vid of a fluids so I know how hard it is to get good footage. What you did is really good and informative to watch. The oscillation of the material took my by surprise.
Speaking from experience after working for a top carbide and tooling manufacturer, I would suggest you revisit how you hold your carbide cutters. ER collets, if that is what you are using are not very good. I suggest a side lock holder or the more expensive shrink fit. For a cheap experimental option I would try the side lock type. Cheers Ian langley ex Seco Tools New Zealand
When you have a deeper or wider cut you are putting more force and vibration energy into the machine's structure. Double the width, double the force, quadruple the energy. These machines don't have much that will absorb that energy. It would be very interesting to see a super-slow-motion shot of a machine with tracking dots, which could tell us what part of the machine is doing most of the deflection. * I didn't catch which mill you are using, but most of them use cast iron for a fair bit of the framework. Cast iron has about 23x the internal friction of steel (iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/147/1/012031/pdf). That said, the mills tend to use thick cast parts which are very rigid. Unless the cast iron is doing the deflection, it can't absorb the energy. * I suspect that most of the vibrational energy usually gets absorbed by the work piece, where the cutter is peeling away a chip. This is the place where metal is deflecting the most, so has the most potential to absorb energy. I believe this is why shallow cuts can sometimes chatter worse -- the kick coupled into the machine from each cut is relatively larger compared to the energy dumped by peeling away the chip. It would be interesting to find the resonant frequencies of the mill, and then see if the chips that are cut at different points in the resonance show more and less plastic distortion.
Stellar video. The editing and production quality on this is incredible. This is honestly one of my favorite machining channels now. I do wonder what that high speed setup is, more details in a future video?
Chatter is your depth of cut, machine stability, material being cut, material and profile of the cutter speed lubrication etc... that produces a harmonic frequency that causes chatter and there are multiple orders of harmonic and sub harmonic frequencys that combine and cause mayhem. What I do is finish the profile with a reverse pass (2 to 5 thou finishing cut) i.e. your not cutting, your spinning the cutter in the oppposite to its cutting direction into the job slowly.. outcome a nice shiny smooth finish and yes i am a trained eng tech Ps. Never used carbide cutters on the mill always HSS and never broke any as i would get my marbles booted lol if i did. Cutters are a capital outlay when blunt into the tool and cutter machine and re sharpen.
Dude, you should have a LOT more subscribers! I’d subscribe more than once if I could. I’ve been CNCing for a while and this video showed me why I’ve seen some of the issues I have in the past that were a mystery before! Keep up the amazing content! If you build it, they will come. 😆
awesome video man!! this was so cool i love high speed footage of machining and i was also curious about chatter ur conclusions really interesting i cant say i woulda guessed it was because of too small of a cut...
New subscriber. My name's Ian. Great to take a good hard focused look at tool behaviour in duress. It's a nicely curated painstakingly assembled presentation of informative photography. When we break tools, we gain more experiential information and this video serves to catalogue and label some of that otherwise experientially gained information. Useful! It'll keep me from going through so many end mills...that is if I ever get the bloody thing built. You've got some interesting titles...
I came across your channel a while ago in TH-cam recommendations and I've been consistently watching your videos. This is an awesome video and I appreciate the novel ideas you are putting forward. I think it is the machine gantry that is deflecting and not the endmill alone. It may something to do with overall machine rigidity. Typically the rigidity is lower in moving gantry machines. You don't have a nice heavy chunk of concrete or epoxy granite holding the spindle housing. Add to that aluminium frames deflect. A lot! Over a distance of about 800mm, a standard aluminium frame would deflect by as much as 1mm. Thats huge. With stiffened frames it comes down to about 0.2mm or so.
Yeah I've been rewatching this and other footage I captured... I think you're right. It's looking like the whole z-axis is acting as lever and twisting/torquing the gantry. I'm trying to figure out a way to capture a wide shot with motion tracking dots or something, to see if we can determine how the machine itself is moving around. I have strong suspicions the table is flexing around some too... the Avid machine uses a type of extrusion milled flat on one side for the table which could also flex. Thanks for watching!
Just an idea of the way how to figure out how much is your gantry flexing: if you attach a point laser to your gantry and project it to the wall, you will be able to see amplified twisting during the milling. And please keep up with fantastic videos. You deserve more subscribers.
Great work Sir, very high quality production. I really enjoy your content. You're so advanced compared to my machining that I don't know what to recommend next. Maybe content like this with speeds and feeds using high speed footage, and showing other machining failures would be helpful. Maybe slotting in aluminum and gumming up the cutter, that would be interesting for noobs like myself.
I've only experienced chatter on a regular column drill and I've gotten the feel for how much force to put on the handle over time. Too little load = chatter, too much torque = spindle stops or stuff goes flying, or cutter gets busted. I haven't operated a CNC mill or lathe but I think that manual experience is quite important for gauging how much load to put on a tool.
Perhaps the high end mills use audio, much like a automotive engine tuner uses the knock sensor to pull timing out. I could certainly see “knock sensor-like” feedback being embedded or attached to the work piece holder, to optimize the cutting parameters. Love the music to accompany the great content!
More rigid spindle and workholding will def help. Also higher spindle speed causes FPT variance esp in smaller dia tools due to tooling tolerances ie. solidholder vs er16 vs shrink fit.
Depends on weather you are climb milling or conventional milling also it depends on path direction. Tool length. Holders collets. And also speeds and feeds
Kind of makes sense, endmill engagement slows down spindle, when you hit 0 or low number spindle can speed up and bounce when endmill goes back into material.
Hi, very interesting video. Well disclaimer first: I don't run routers. But I find the idea that the WOC is the problem misleading, I was recently reading the cutting condition for the YG-1 V7PlusA end mills and it stated that for finishing passes you should use 2% diameter WOC and your WOC is 5%, this is more related to the high RPM, 24000 would be for running a small tool for cutting aluminum. On an milling machine in order to run that high even standard BT or CAT tool holder don't work, run-out increases, you have to switch to HSK.
It could be interesting to see how the endmill moves when only one of the flutes is engaged at a time, ie. cutting deep with a single flute endmill with a relieved back side of the cutting edge, compared to ie. a 4+ flute one in the same situation. I've been taught that single flutes are really good only for very shallow depth and large radial engagement. I'd wager the deflection would be smaller on these high-speed spindles compared to a low-RPM mill, but it could be still fun.
Ooh, I like that idea. I have a number of single flutes on hand. Would be neat to see how it compares to to 2/3/4 flute in a few different cutting scenarios. I bet their chip evacuation is pretty awesome to see too, since the gullet is so large.
@@BreakingTaps Oh, one more thing - not sure how usable it is for this use case, but video motion magnification (see ie. people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/ for the academic side, software included) could be interesting too and potentially reveal any smaller amplitude harmonics in the vibrations. Its commercial use is more in monitoring tiny concrete / pipe vibrations for early failure, but it's worth a shot if you get it working. :)
Cool! have you tried to use a MPU6050 or piezo (used like a contact mic) to get better feedback on the vibration. I've often wondered if anyone has tried to close the loop with feed overrides and vibration feedback on a hobby machine.
After the audio chatter analysis video, I picked up four LIS3DH 3-axis accelerometers, a handful of electret mics and MAX4466 amps, and like a dozen disc piezo buzzers, all with the intention of instrumenting the heck out of the machine to see what's going on. Afraid I got distracted and never dug into that project... but I have all the gear and should probably spend some time working on it! I bet it'd be very interesting.
@@BreakingTaps This video is incredible. I've wondered about detecting and attempting to dampen chatter but what would a control algo do if it sense excess vibration? Servo control loop is 10,000+ hz, End mill is ~1/30 of rev further around, mid chip, or EM is broken, force of the cut is starting to travel up your machine at speed of sound in steel [5meters/ msec.... I think?] Likely reason for the 'outside of parameter' chatter vibration is a chip that went back through or a dull cutter nose bouncing off or possibly a resonance? Would be very interested to see an accelerometer synched with the video!
Yeah it's an interesting problem. There's actually a fair amount of literature (and companies) on "smart spindles" and active vibration/chatter control. The less sophisticated ones identify when chatter is happening (usually with audio, less often with contact sensors and accelerometer) and adjust spindle speed or feed rate. I think these tend to be better in demos than real life, since complex toolpaths don't lend themselves to this sort of realtime tweaking very well. The more advanced ones I've seen couple the sensor readings to the actual toolpath and "learn" where chatter is, allowing the system to dial in good settings over the course of several runs. The idea being that you might need to go through a dozen parts to tune the system, but the next 10,000 parts are perfect, and can be done faster than manual trial/error from a human.
Great video, you mentioned the Radial Depth of cut was the cause of chatter in this case, it would be interested to see if accounting for chip thinning and maintaining the proper chip thickness resolved the situation. even if you had to slow the spindle speed to get the appropriate FPT it should help i would think.
Thanks! I agree, I think that would be very interesting to look at. I kinda bludgeoned it with settings to make the chatter bad, would be interesting to see how correct settings look, and how far you have to go outside the correct settings to start getting bad behavior.
great video. Collet chucks are for drills, not endmills. That being said, I used collet chucks to hold endmills for many years. Invariably, the endmill would break. Usually right at the face of the collet, then the $8 collet is ruined..but most shops will use them again, and again, and again. For the utmost security, an endmill with a weldon flat held in a side lock (set screw) holder can't be beat. Yes it will have more runout than a shrink fit, milling chuck, or hydraulic holder, but it will not pull out, or rotate. I guarantee that if you put that endmill in a side lock holder, you will see different results. Use a Rego Fix or Big Kaiser holder with precision collets that cost in the neighborhood of $70 per collet, you will also see different results. You make the videos, and I'll provide the tooling>
Greate video thank you sharing this information. You would prevent braking the tool if the alarm relay of the vfd was connected to estop of the machine...
This was great! I am very grateful to YT's algorithm today. If you're in the LA area I'd love to see what my 4x9' AvidCNC and Tormach look like at high speed. Great video!
I remember one time milling slots into a hollow section of steel and it screamed like a banshee. I wonder if that was a case of the more flexible shs moving in and out like with chatter or the entire work piece becoming kind of amplifier. It would be cool to see something like that investigated with a HS camera
What about videoing different operations in slo-mo? Instead of peripheral roughing maybe something more aggressive like ramping, ideally some drilling? What kind of light source do you use? Is the slo-mo camera an Edgertronic? Love the video!
Hi there, I'm wondering if you'd be interested in testing/showing the "squeal" of an endmill when it's just starting to ramp into a part. Presumably that's something we might see with a setup like you have? Certainly possible that the oscillation is not large enough amplitude to show up well, but it might be interesting to see it vibrate just as the tool touches down, and has a shallow engagement, but go away once the tool has engaged the work a little more. Thoughts?
YES! It's so rare to see good footage this slow of machining, and such a fascinating analysis.
Thanks Winston, really appreciate it!
@@BreakingTaps 200 IPM.......😂😂😂,MILD STEEL
When i Use Max 100 IPM, but thats Aluminum Materials ,KOR 5
Thanks for the Video
🙂 Figured if the goal was to make it chatter.... might as well really give it the juice and chatter :) To be fair, the WOC is still pretty light which makes the IPM look a little less ridiculous... still very high though :)
@@BreakingTaps Looks the Titans CNC Academy,
Thats 1600 IPM
KOR 5
1/2 Endmill
Aluminum Material
Not Break
This fast, you mean 😁
Awesome. I've always wondered what chatter looks like. It would be cool to see a macro shot of any of the shop tools that move really fast like an air nibbler or something. I also wondered what it looks like when you accidentally run a lathe spindle in reverse (or mill). Not that I would have ever done anything like that, I'm purely asking for a friend that removed a substantial amount of material wondering why the knobs were so hard to turn...
Yay thanks for stopping by! So funnily enough, I think my first milling video on YT I was running the endmill in reverse and really struggling to turn the handles, not understanding what was happening. Doh :) I just might have to investigate that, yunno, for science.
@@BreakingTaps I'm pretty much convinced that all the channels I like also like watching the same channels I like...
P.S. I feel like this totally changes my perspective on chatter..... had no clue a rigid looking set up like that would oscillate so much! I mean I could see the endmill and or tool holder and entire head of the machine deflecting that much during chatter but had no idea the work and entire machine table and vise would... crazy
Heck yeah! BTW, Steve Mould did an interesting video on video motion enhancement algorithms that modify the contrast of videos to accentuate motion using lower speed cameras. You guys could experiment with that for some good high speed footage.
@@BreakingTaps I'm so relieved to know I'm not the only one. haha
Why helicopter's self destruct
I think it's been said lots of other places (AvE comes to mind): "everything is a spring." It didn't make any sense to me until I thought through what makes a spring-pass even possible. This video really drives the point home.
Robrenz: "You must think like everything is made of rubber". And he was lapping a granite surface plate.
Not only a spring, but a spring-a-ma-thing
The three fundamental truths of engineering: Everything is a spring, everything leaks, and there is no such thing as a sharp inside corner
@@zuthalsoraniz6764 sharp corner not only sharp inside corner. At the sharp side of every knive it is just a radius, they may only be measured in nanometers or so but they are there.
Such an underrated channel. Pushing home-manufacturing to a new level with every video. Your editing has improved massively as well over time. Best of luck on your TH-cam journey
Also appreciate the note about editing... it's so hard! I'm humbled everytime I watch a really good video with editing. Slowly getting better, trying to spend more time on it since it makes such a big difference imo.
I really like your "reading the tea leaves" metaphor. It very well encapsulates what it feels like to look at something that most people would see as nothing but noise and try to find patterns and meaning in it. Troubleshooting seems to be intuition as much as logic sometimes when our brains manage to find patterns learned from lots of experience while our conscious minds can't quite grasp them.
33 year machining vet. Loved this. Keep up the great videos.
As an actual CNC machinst, I can tell you that even the biggest and heaviest machines move around like this. Not as much, and not as fast, but your regular Haas mill is a limp noodle compared to dedicated heavy iron for HSM production machining. "Everything is a spring" is indeed correct, and everything that has clearance, has slop to move around.
The second thing I want to mention is that your best stepover for "less than ridged enough" tooling is usually 33% and 66%, where the cutting forces want to pull the cutter parallel with the direction of feed, instead of into or away from the work. This tends to give you a more perpendicular cut, because the tool isn't flexing to one side, and can give you a more stable cut because the direction of the cutting forces is countered by the feeding forces of the machine and should have less backlash to move around in.
This is one of the most unique and informative videos I have ever seen on machining. Clearly, the average machinist does not have the equipment nor ability to do this depth of analysis. Thank you very much for sharing it.
This was amazing, I thought I'll be fast forwarding through this but I was glued to my monitor the entire time!
Still watching this video 3 years later. There's a wealth of knowledge to gain from it, both about your machine and the effects it has on machines in general. Once again thank you.
That is amazing. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes and have seen the movement of the machine like that at the end. It’s pretty cool seeing it in slo mo
In a "proper" cnc machine all you do is shift the failure point around to different places. Care and maintenance of tool holders and spindle taper. Pull studs. Draw bar springs. Collets or whatever tool holding. Tool balance/runout. Thrust bearing maintenance. Work holding.
That's all right off the top of my head. Good cut parameters are exactly as important. The ragged edge of max productivity is every bit as razor thin, the bar is just set a tiny bit higher.
This is the stuff of universities and institutes. Very educational! I think that the factor , which additionally plays a big role, but is hard to estimate for yourself is the effect of temperature. It isn't constant throughout, but we all know how it could worsen a metals property. Great video!
One of the best things that has happened to me today is discovering this channel. I sat there with my mouth open at being able to see and understand chatter. Thank you!!
Breaking that tool was so worth it for the footage. Absolutely amazing. Thank you
Great video! I just have to correct you. It is not really the endmill deflection, but the whole gantry vibrating and moving all over the place.
Very good point, I should have been a bit more precise in my wording! Actually want to do a followup showing the table and gantry moving around, maybe with tracking points or something. Still trying to figure out the best way to quantify it.
I was thinking a solid carbide endmill deflecting .022” would break lol
Bingo. It's just not rigid enough.
This is honestly intriguing, I always thought the contrary to what you said in this video about chatter. I always figured that less heavy of a cut would cause less chatter and a lighter cut would cause less chatter. Awesome video.
Heavy cut creates a greater cutting force which bends the endmill tool and ultimately breaks it. Light cut won't but allows it to just oscillate that leaves lines on surface.
Finally have an answer for the problems I had during the 25 years I worked as a Tool Maker/Machinist. I was too busy dodging chips to see the cutter "dance" about.
I hope this video will be seen by all the younger people coming into the trade.
THANK YOU!
"what NOT to do with an endmill", great high-speed footage! I assumed chatter was just bouncing *off* the part, creating just a lateral vibration - it never occurred to me that it would be a circular oscillation. But considering the bit is spinning, I suppose I should have expected that. Thanks for the vid!
I would LOVE to see this done with all different types of tool holders to see the difference between them. Do ER collet, hydraulic holder, slim fit, shrink fit, rego fit, etc.
Really great video! I'm always babying my lathe because I thought I was helping the machine, but from this it looks like I'm actually making the surface finish worse! Time to try some new feeds and speeds.
Thanks! And yeah, totally agree... I'm thinking back to prior projects and wondering if things would have gone smoother had I just given it a bit more juice, instead of dialing it back 🤔
Same here! Seeing this I feel like I was fighting fire with gasoline in retrospect. 😬😂
When I was machining I didn't have that problem. I was always pushing the tool/machine to its limit. It's a lot easier to do that when it's someone else's equipment 😁
When machining long shafts it’s often common in industry to increase the roughing feed rate to the point where it almost looks like you’re screw cutting the shaft to reduce chatter 😊. Higher engagement usually stops the job rattling around and makes the work quicker!
Wow, I always cringe when I hear chatter and in my head I'm just imagining that super hardened metal against metal, but actually seeing what it's doing is crazy. Really great analysis, too. Haven't seen this channel before but I'm glad I stumbled across it.
Thanks for this great video. It would be cool to see a slow-mo comparison between conventional milling and climb milling, and to see how the differences in surface finish are formed.
I was thinking the same thing.
At this FPS and with the measuring tools in the editing it would be awesome to see.
WOW. I think you are the first person I have subscribed to after only 1 video. Fantastic footage and crazy from a physics/material perspective.
Thankyou for great video! Can you let me know which high-speed camera was used?
That was fantastic!!!! Thank you! I went into this thinking 'oh cool a slow mo video of an endmill' and ended with a whole new perspective on what the cutting edge requires.
This is beyond educational. I hope you realize the service you have done here. It makes the science behind machining visible. Thank you.
I also wanted to ask, when your spindle bogged down and the VFD eventually shut off, if you had a more powerful spindle (5kw), that cut would of then been possible, no?
Thanks! I think a more powerful spindle might have done the trick, although I suspect there might be a configuration issue with my VFD too. Someone else in the comments ran the numbers and the spindle should have been pulling under the 2.2kW limit... so there might be a threshold on my VFD that isn't configured correctly, or maybe I tripped the thermal cutout. Not sure :)
This is just some crazy video analysis. TH-cam's algorithm sent me your way somehow and I am so glad they did. I've always been looking for someone who knew machining AND All this slow mo videography stuff. The way you can measure certain things like how much the spindle moved is extremely helpful. Subbed.
This is AWESOME! It’s so cool to be able to see what you hear! Thank you for investing in this.
I just getting started in CNC with my 3018 "pro" I got on amazon, it's most definitely a toy. The easy-bake oven of CNC routers 🤣 But its interesting to know this, that shallow cuts are not without their disadvantages.
I ve been running a cnc router tor 11 years and this video made me feel like a virgin, touched for the very first time
Absolutely fantastic work. Your play by play is super useful. Regarding cut depth... insight + (slowmo) sight is a 10 outta 10!
More of this kind of skoolin for desktop amateurs PLEASE!
As a cutting tool maker, this video is fantastic. I love it. You're talking about things that are so fast we'd never see it without a camera like this and therefore remains a "black magic"/"voodoo" area for most machinists.
As a first time viewer, I'm off to see what else your channel has!
All about finding the happy medium and making sure your fixture doesn’t move. And good quality tool.
I used to be a CNC operator. I could tell when a tool was about to go from the sound, any burn marks the tool made, and the quality of the cut.
It is fascinating to see it in slow motion.
This! This is golden content. When you had asked earlier what we wanted to see, this is exactly it. Great content!
Great to hear, thanks! Appreciate the feedback here and in those polls, definitely helps me :)
This stuff is more complex than I would have imagined. I always thought that less is more on a finishing pass, but clearly this is not true and there is a scientific optimal setting. Thank goodness wood is forgiving. But now I have more knowledge when I try can cut aluminum (6061) on my StepCraft CNC router. Thank you for sharing this knowledge! I would love to see the aluminum welding video as this is the exact issue I had last time I tried to mill some aluminum. It was a 4 flute endmill that previously worked well and I figured it was just dull. Now I think it was simple 2 many flutes, the wrong settings, chips not clearing fast enough, and the endmill was probably dull. Thanks
I've seen quite a bit of machine porn but this shit is just gorgeous! And also educational. Very well done! Keep it coming! ...and nice choice of music, too!
Wow, this is great information! Watching the setup move into a resonant frequency range before blowing apart makes a lot of things suddenly make more sense.
I really appreciate the trouble you have gone to in this video. I operate a small turret mill which has been fitted out with ball screws and stepper motors and I have been using it to cut aluminium with mixed success. Using HSS 4 mm or 6mm 3 and 4 flute cutters I have had problems with chips sticking to the cutters. Whilst using compressed air to move the chips out of the toolpath I have had some end mill failures when aluminium has become welded to one of the flutes. This causes deflection and drag sometimes enough to break the HSS endmill. It would be interesting to see in slow motion how many times an edge picks up material and how many times it is shed before causing breakage. I suspect that it happens more than I can see at normal speed.
Pretty much everyone here is a machinist nerd like me. Awesome video!
Really cool video. I think I need to start taking bigger WOC on my router! Well done.
Thanks! I definitely err on the side of too timid with most of my cuts...then occasionally get adventurous and go too extreme and break a tool... Whoops :)
@@BreakingTaps I don't know if you already know this, but direction of feed makes a huge difference. The cuts you made in this video are what is known as a climb cut because the end mill tries to climb out of the cut. If you reverse the feed direction, you get what is known as a conventional cut. A climb cut can take a very substantial cut without overloading because it takes a large bite and peels it away, ejecting out the rear of the cut. A conventional cut scoops forward into the direction of feed, ejecting the chip out the front. It can be easily over loaded, causing it to pull into the workpiece and stall and break the cutter, but when used for a fine finish pass, it can leave a very nice finish.
Typically, you should make a roughing pass with a climb cut and a finish pass with a conventional cut. This will increase both your accuracy and your surface finish.
Fantastic analysis! A picture is worth a thousand end mills " well maybe not" but at least a couple. I have wanted to see chatter for a long time to heighten my awareness of the circumstances that create it. All kidding aside thanks a million for posting this video and take care!
Great video analysis, It does clearly show that the router is not rigid enough for those cutting parameters, and the climb cutting is making it even worse. It was cool to see how whole setup is moving during the cut. I was amazed to see that end mill didn't snap right away on such machine/setup shifts.
BT, very nice. I've been running machines since the1970's and this is the first time I've ever seen this. Thanks for the video and yes I will show this around.
This is great footage. I’m a professional CNC machinist, and I train the new guys. One of the demonstrations I do is take a 1/2” steel rod and a 1/2” carbide end mill and hit them both with a 2 lb sledge hammer while held vertically in a vise. The steel bends and bends on each hit and the carbide snaps right off, usually on the first hit. It is always shocking to see.
It’s interesting to me that .050” or more step over was too much, that’s where we get good finish passes on our machines.
Fun note, more tool length engaged usually is “free” when considering horsepower and will normally result in a better finish and longer tool life.
I loved seeing the endmill shatter and the chattering in slow motion. Very nice.
Awesome video, seeing chatter explains a lot. Seen it on large machines also not using right tool for the job. Amazing how much the mill, spindle and vice move.
Cool to see whats happening when my co-workers are breaking endmills every week.
Day*
Great footage! Really gives a greater understanding of what is really going on
Really cool footage!
Cutting process vibrations is a really interesting topic. Solving a chatter problem is not easy to solve without good knowledge of the dynamic stiffness and damping (of the tool side and the fixture side).
I clicked on this because Breaking Taps is such a good name for a machinist channel. Stayed for the whole video.
great images. Had a Fadal at my last job that no one knew how to use so I learned how so I am familiar with feed and depth parameters. I also did some high speed vid of a fluids so I know how hard it is to get good footage. What you did is really good and informative to watch. The oscillation of the material took my by surprise.
Speaking from experience after working for a top carbide and tooling manufacturer, I would suggest you revisit how you hold your carbide cutters. ER collets, if that is what you are using are not very good. I suggest a side lock holder or the more expensive shrink fit. For a cheap experimental option I would try the side lock type. Cheers Ian langley ex Seco Tools New Zealand
When you have a deeper or wider cut you are putting more force and vibration energy into the machine's structure. Double the width, double the force, quadruple the energy.
These machines don't have much that will absorb that energy. It would be very interesting to see a super-slow-motion shot of a machine with tracking dots, which could tell us what part of the machine is doing most of the deflection.
* I didn't catch which mill you are using, but most of them use cast iron for a fair bit of the framework. Cast iron has about 23x the internal friction of steel (iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/147/1/012031/pdf). That said, the mills tend to use thick cast parts which are very rigid. Unless the cast iron is doing the deflection, it can't absorb the energy.
* I suspect that most of the vibrational energy usually gets absorbed by the work piece, where the cutter is peeling away a chip. This is the place where metal is deflecting the most, so has the most potential to absorb energy. I believe this is why shallow cuts can sometimes chatter worse -- the kick coupled into the machine from each cut is relatively larger compared to the energy dumped by peeling away the chip.
It would be interesting to find the resonant frequencies of the mill, and then see if the chips that are cut at different points in the resonance show more and less plastic distortion.
Kudos on making a video that is both visually stunning and laced with technical detail. What's the music at the end?
Instantly subbed. Good shit my dude. I'm showing this to everyone at work tomorrow
Stellar video. The editing and production quality on this is incredible. This is honestly one of my favorite machining channels now.
I do wonder what that high speed setup is, more details in a future video?
Chatter is your depth of cut, machine stability, material being cut, material and profile of the cutter speed lubrication etc... that produces a harmonic frequency that causes chatter and there are multiple orders of harmonic and sub harmonic frequencys that combine and cause mayhem.
What I do is finish the profile with a reverse pass (2 to 5 thou finishing cut) i.e. your not cutting, your spinning the cutter in the oppposite to its cutting direction into the job slowly.. outcome a nice shiny smooth finish and yes i am a trained eng tech
Ps. Never used carbide cutters on the mill always HSS and never broke any as i would get my marbles booted lol if i did. Cutters are a capital outlay when blunt into the tool and cutter machine and re sharpen.
Dude, you should have a LOT more subscribers! I’d subscribe more than once if I could. I’ve been CNCing for a while and this video showed me why I’ve seen some of the issues I have in the past that were a mystery before! Keep up the amazing content! If you build it, they will come. 😆
The fancy editing was awesome
awesome video man!! this was so cool i love high speed footage of machining and i was also curious about chatter ur conclusions really interesting i cant say i woulda guessed it was because of too small of a cut...
New subscriber. My name's Ian.
Great to take a good hard focused look at tool behaviour in duress. It's a nicely curated painstakingly assembled presentation of informative photography. When we break tools, we gain more experiential information and this video serves to catalogue and label some of that otherwise experientially gained information.
Useful! It'll keep me from going through so many end mills...that is if I ever get the bloody thing built.
You've got some interesting titles...
I came across your channel a while ago in TH-cam recommendations and I've been consistently watching your videos. This is an awesome video and I appreciate the novel ideas you are putting forward. I think it is the machine gantry that is deflecting and not the endmill alone. It may something to do with overall machine rigidity. Typically the rigidity is lower in moving gantry machines. You don't have a nice heavy chunk of concrete or epoxy granite holding the spindle housing. Add to that aluminium frames deflect. A lot! Over a distance of about 800mm, a standard aluminium frame would deflect by as much as 1mm. Thats huge. With stiffened frames it comes down to about 0.2mm or so.
Yeah I've been rewatching this and other footage I captured... I think you're right. It's looking like the whole z-axis is acting as lever and twisting/torquing the gantry. I'm trying to figure out a way to capture a wide shot with motion tracking dots or something, to see if we can determine how the machine itself is moving around. I have strong suspicions the table is flexing around some too... the Avid machine uses a type of extrusion milled flat on one side for the table which could also flex. Thanks for watching!
Just an idea of the way how to figure out how much is your gantry flexing: if you attach a point laser to your gantry and project it to the wall, you will be able to see amplified twisting during the milling.
And please keep up with fantastic videos. You deserve more subscribers.
I just discovered your channel, but I must say I'm highly impressed by your work.
The production value is just so great
Dude that's so awesome all the slo-mo footage was gold 😭
Great work Sir, very high quality production. I really enjoy your content. You're so advanced compared to my machining that I don't know what to recommend next. Maybe content like this with speeds and feeds using high speed footage, and showing other machining failures would be helpful. Maybe slotting in aluminum and gumming up the cutter, that would be interesting for noobs like myself.
Oooh I like that aluminum welding idea, would be really fun to see that happen in slow motion! Cheers!
I've only experienced chatter on a regular column drill and I've gotten the feel for how much force to put on the handle over time. Too little load = chatter, too much torque = spindle stops or stuff goes flying, or cutter gets busted. I haven't operated a CNC mill or lathe but I think that manual experience is quite important for gauging how much load to put on a tool.
Perhaps the high end mills use audio, much like a automotive engine tuner uses the knock sensor to pull timing out.
I could certainly see “knock sensor-like” feedback being embedded or attached to the work piece holder, to optimize the cutting parameters.
Love the music to accompany the great content!
I LOVE this channel! You're gonna go places and thank you!
This was so inCREDIBLY cool to watch... Subscribed!
This is fascinating stuff, thank you for your efforts.
More rigid spindle and workholding will def help. Also higher spindle speed causes FPT variance esp in smaller dia tools due to tooling tolerances ie. solidholder vs er16 vs shrink fit.
Wow!! Did not expect such a good video!! Great job man!! Loved it
Depends on weather you are climb milling or conventional milling also it depends on path direction. Tool length. Holders collets. And also speeds and feeds
Kind of makes sense, endmill engagement slows down spindle, when you hit 0 or low number spindle can speed up and bounce when endmill goes back into material.
Hi, very interesting video. Well disclaimer first: I don't run routers. But I find the idea that the WOC is the problem misleading, I was recently reading the cutting condition for the YG-1 V7PlusA end mills and it stated that for finishing passes you should use 2% diameter WOC and your WOC is 5%, this is more related to the high RPM, 24000 would be for running a small tool for cutting aluminum. On an milling machine in order to run that high even standard BT or CAT tool holder don't work, run-out increases, you have to switch to HSK.
It could be interesting to see how the endmill moves when only one of the flutes is engaged at a time, ie. cutting deep with a single flute endmill with a relieved back side of the cutting edge, compared to ie. a 4+ flute one in the same situation. I've been taught that single flutes are really good only for very shallow depth and large radial engagement. I'd wager the deflection would be smaller on these high-speed spindles compared to a low-RPM mill, but it could be still fun.
Ooh, I like that idea. I have a number of single flutes on hand. Would be neat to see how it compares to to 2/3/4 flute in a few different cutting scenarios. I bet their chip evacuation is pretty awesome to see too, since the gullet is so large.
@@BreakingTaps Oh, one more thing - not sure how usable it is for this use case, but video motion magnification (see ie. people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/ for the academic side, software included) could be interesting too and potentially reveal any smaller amplitude harmonics in the vibrations. Its commercial use is more in monitoring tiny concrete / pipe vibrations for early failure, but it's worth a shot if you get it working. :)
Woaaah, that's a cool technique! Will dig into this, it looks super useful.
Were have this channel been🤯 this is gold😳😳😳😃
Cool! have you tried to use a MPU6050 or piezo (used like a contact mic) to get better feedback on the vibration. I've often wondered if anyone has tried to close the loop with feed overrides and vibration feedback on a hobby machine.
After the audio chatter analysis video, I picked up four LIS3DH 3-axis accelerometers, a handful of electret mics and MAX4466 amps, and like a dozen disc piezo buzzers, all with the intention of instrumenting the heck out of the machine to see what's going on. Afraid I got distracted and never dug into that project... but I have all the gear and should probably spend some time working on it! I bet it'd be very interesting.
@@BreakingTaps This video is incredible. I've wondered about detecting and attempting to dampen chatter but what would a control algo do if it sense excess vibration? Servo control loop is 10,000+ hz, End mill is ~1/30 of rev further around, mid chip, or EM is broken, force of the cut is starting to travel up your machine at speed of sound in steel [5meters/ msec.... I think?] Likely reason for the 'outside of parameter' chatter vibration is a chip that went back through or a dull cutter nose bouncing off or possibly a resonance? Would be very interested to see an accelerometer synched with the video!
Yeah it's an interesting problem. There's actually a fair amount of literature (and companies) on "smart spindles" and active vibration/chatter control. The less sophisticated ones identify when chatter is happening (usually with audio, less often with contact sensors and accelerometer) and adjust spindle speed or feed rate. I think these tend to be better in demos than real life, since complex toolpaths don't lend themselves to this sort of realtime tweaking very well. The more advanced ones I've seen couple the sensor readings to the actual toolpath and "learn" where chatter is, allowing the system to dial in good settings over the course of several runs. The idea being that you might need to go through a dozen parts to tune the system, but the next 10,000 parts are perfect, and can be done faster than manual trial/error from a human.
@@BreakingTaps Cool! Thanks for the reply!
I'm also curious to see the set up of a mic to look at chatter to get the inside scoop on vibration.
Great video, you mentioned the Radial Depth of cut was the cause of chatter in this case, it would be interested to see if accounting for chip thinning and maintaining the proper chip thickness resolved the situation. even if you had to slow the spindle speed to get the appropriate FPT it should help i would think.
Thanks! I agree, I think that would be very interesting to look at. I kinda bludgeoned it with settings to make the chatter bad, would be interesting to see how correct settings look, and how far you have to go outside the correct settings to start getting bad behavior.
This video circles around the point. Great job.
great video. Collet chucks are for drills, not endmills. That being said, I used collet chucks to hold endmills for many years. Invariably, the endmill would break. Usually right at the face of the collet, then the $8 collet is ruined..but most shops will use them again, and again, and again. For the utmost security, an endmill with a weldon flat held in a side lock (set screw) holder can't be beat. Yes it will have more runout than a shrink fit, milling chuck, or hydraulic holder, but it will not pull out, or rotate. I guarantee that if you put that endmill in a side lock holder, you will see different results. Use a Rego Fix or Big Kaiser holder with precision collets that cost in the neighborhood of $70 per collet, you will also see different results. You make the videos, and I'll provide the tooling>
Woah, this is so cool! I love TH-cam! Thanks for posting!
Great footage!!!
Also, we usually say machine "rigidity" instead of "stiffness".
That is spectacular! Great and very informative vid mate
Wrap a spring around the spindle head , cheap way to sort out the resonance problem and finish the workpiece.
Great footage!
You could try some video amplification techniques to see some of the oscillations even clearer
Greate video thank you sharing this information.
You would prevent braking the tool if the alarm relay of the vfd was connected to estop of the machine...
Chatter has always been kind of a mystery to me. Great video!
Always wanted to know what that looked like in slow-mo. That's fantastic to see the "chips" get cut and flung off to wherever.
Wow, very eye-opening video! Nice to see what's really going on with chatter.
This was great! I am very grateful to YT's algorithm today. If you're in the LA area I'd love to see what my 4x9' AvidCNC and Tormach look like at high speed. Great video!
Really interesting. Thanks for posting.
This is extremely relevant information, thanks for doing the research!
Hey, awesome footage, really interesting to see. Thanks for sharing. :)
Interesting that the collet allows for so much movement. It would like to know if tightening the collet holder more impacts the outcome.
I remember one time milling slots into a hollow section of steel and it screamed like a banshee. I wonder if that was a case of the more flexible shs moving in and out like with chatter or the entire work piece becoming kind of amplifier. It would be cool to see something like that investigated with a HS camera
What about videoing different operations in slo-mo? Instead of peripheral roughing maybe something more aggressive like ramping, ideally some drilling? What kind of light source do you use? Is the slo-mo camera an Edgertronic? Love the video!
Hi there, I'm wondering if you'd be interested in testing/showing the "squeal" of an endmill when it's just starting to ramp into a part. Presumably that's something we might see with a setup like you have? Certainly possible that the oscillation is not large enough amplitude to show up well, but it might be interesting to see it vibrate just as the tool touches down, and has a shallow engagement, but go away once the tool has engaged the work a little more. Thoughts?