Jesus simplifies the Father and himself so that even a small child can understand: In this one verse, Jesus proves he can never be God. In John 17:3, he says “and this is life eternal, that they might know *YOU, the one true God.”* Not only that, but Jesus says his name and title _after_ stating his Father is the only true God; only afterwards does he finish with saying “and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent.” This is undeniable proof he cannot be God, nor can anyone else outside of the Father. Yet man continues to defy and call both the Father and the Son liars-and they will remain lost (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
Hi Shawn, Thanks for your message. I appreciate your desire to argue Biblically, so I wanted to leave some questions for you to think about. How do you understand Romans 9:5 where the Christ is explicitly described as "God over all"? Or Titus 2:13, where Jesus is described as "Our Great God and Saviour"? What about the numerous times Jesus refers to himself as "I am", including John 8:58, or the times when Jesus receives worship (compare Matthew 28:17, Revelation 5:12 with Deuteronomy 6:13, Luke 4:8, Revelation 22:9)? Or Jude 4-5, where Jesus is described as "Our only Sovereign and Lord" and then verse 5 describes "the Lord" (clearly Jesus in the context of verse 4) delivering the people out of slavery in Egypt. But, in Exodus, it was Yahweh who did this work. Even, in John 17, which you quote, Jesus claims to be one with the Father, so I'm not sure it's a good proof text. These texts are only the beginning of a whole host of Scriptures that clearly point to Jesus as God. If you have any questions and are genuinely interested in discussing, you'd be welcome to email our Church at contact@christchurchfareham.co.uk. I'd happily continue this discussion. Blessings, Duncan
@@duncansills7453 My desire is not to argue biblically; it is simply express the truth that the Holy Spirit has shown me because too many people _believe_ in a lie. Romans 9:5 does not say that Christ is "God over all." It reads "Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." This context tells us that Christ is above all flesh and has been blessed by God. Any translation that says Jesus is God is false. The reason Jesus is blessed is because he is not only the chosen one of God, but because he has _always_ done the will and commandments of God (John 12:49-50; Revelation 22:13-15). Without God, Jesus can do _NOTHING._ He says this explicitly in John 8:27-28, which is the reference to the "I am" that you recite in John 8:58. John 8:58 is alluding to John 8:27, where he says "I am nothing," not to Exodus 3:14 as many think for some reason. Jesus is indeed our Lord and Savior, but he is not God Himself. GOD loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son. God is the Father; Jesus is the Son---there is no disqualifying this. Jesus himself tells us that God is his Father AND our Father (John 20:17). To think that Jesus IS God...to think that anyone born of flesh IS God Himself goes against everything Jesus says when he tells us God, his Father, is in heaven where He has _always_ resided. Likewise in Titus 2:13, it reads "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of *_the great God_* AND *_our Saviour Jesus Christ."_* This is referring to God and Jesus Christ being separate entities. Just as we are to become one even as they are one (John 17:21-23), we are to become one in the Spirit of God just as Jesus is one with God's spirit. As Romans 8:16-18 reads, "And if children, then heirs; *_heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;_* if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." We can only be glorified together if we are in total agreement with the Father's will, just as Jesus is. Amen.
@@Shawn-q3x Thanks for engaging. Do you read Greek? Have you read commentaries on those verses? Grammatically, especially in the Greek, a lot of your arguments are possible, but unlikely. The consensus on Romans 9:5 and Titus 2:13 is that God is used as a description of Jesus Christ in those verses. You don't find "Before Abraham, I am" convincing, but it certainly seems confusing of Jesus to use Exodus 3:14 language 3 times in one speech. And they wanted to stone him at the end, so he was definitely saying something extremely controversial. I'll give it one more try. Have a look at Psalm 102:25-27. Who is the "you" in those verses? I would answer by saying "my God" in verse 24 and Yahweh according to verse 1 and verse 12. Do you agree? Now, look at Hebrews 1:10-12. Who are those verses written about? They are the same verses quoted from Psalm 102, so the answer must be God/Yahweh. Now, look at Hebrews 1:8. These verses were written about the Son. Hebrews 1 therefore presents the Son as a separate person from God the Father, but also as God Himself. This is Trinitarian theology. God is one being, but three persons. You keep using verses (like John 3:16 and Romans 8:16-18) that distinguish between God and Jesus, as though this proves your point. But, the verses you quote do not pose any problems to Trinitarian theology, which the Church has believed since the very beginning. God the Father and God the Son can interact as separate persons and yet Jesus is truly God.
Jesus simplifies the Father and himself so that even a small child can understand:
In this one verse, Jesus proves he can never be God. In John 17:3, he says “and this is life eternal, that they might know *YOU, the one true God.”* Not only that, but Jesus says his name and title _after_ stating his Father is the only true God; only afterwards does he finish with saying “and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent.” This is undeniable proof he cannot be God, nor can anyone else outside of the Father. Yet man continues to defy and call both the Father and the Son liars-and they will remain lost (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
Hi Shawn,
Thanks for your message. I appreciate your desire to argue Biblically, so I wanted to leave some questions for you to think about.
How do you understand Romans 9:5 where the Christ is explicitly described as "God over all"?
Or Titus 2:13, where Jesus is described as "Our Great God and Saviour"?
What about the numerous times Jesus refers to himself as "I am", including John 8:58, or the times when Jesus receives worship (compare Matthew 28:17, Revelation 5:12 with Deuteronomy 6:13, Luke 4:8, Revelation 22:9)?
Or Jude 4-5, where Jesus is described as "Our only Sovereign and Lord" and then verse 5 describes "the Lord" (clearly Jesus in the context of verse 4) delivering the people out of slavery in Egypt. But, in Exodus, it was Yahweh who did this work.
Even, in John 17, which you quote, Jesus claims to be one with the Father, so I'm not sure it's a good proof text.
These texts are only the beginning of a whole host of Scriptures that clearly point to Jesus as God.
If you have any questions and are genuinely interested in discussing, you'd be welcome to email our Church at contact@christchurchfareham.co.uk. I'd happily continue this discussion.
Blessings,
Duncan
@@duncansills7453 My desire is not to argue biblically; it is simply express the truth that the Holy Spirit has shown me because too many people _believe_ in a lie.
Romans 9:5 does not say that Christ is "God over all." It reads "Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." This context tells us that Christ is above all flesh and has been blessed by God. Any translation that says Jesus is God is false.
The reason Jesus is blessed is because he is not only the chosen one of God, but because he has _always_ done the will and commandments of God (John 12:49-50; Revelation 22:13-15).
Without God, Jesus can do _NOTHING._ He says this explicitly in John 8:27-28, which is the reference to the "I am" that you recite in John 8:58. John 8:58 is alluding to John 8:27, where he says "I am nothing," not to Exodus 3:14 as many think for some reason.
Jesus is indeed our Lord and Savior, but he is not God Himself. GOD loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son. God is the Father; Jesus is the Son---there is no disqualifying this. Jesus himself tells us that God is his Father AND our Father (John 20:17). To think that Jesus IS God...to think that anyone born of flesh IS God Himself goes against everything Jesus says when he tells us God, his Father, is in heaven where He has _always_ resided.
Likewise in Titus 2:13, it reads "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of *_the great God_* AND *_our Saviour Jesus Christ."_* This is referring to God and Jesus Christ being separate entities. Just as we are to become one even as they are one (John 17:21-23), we are to become one in the Spirit of God just as Jesus is one with God's spirit.
As Romans 8:16-18 reads, "And if children, then heirs; *_heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;_* if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." We can only be glorified together if we are in total agreement with the Father's will, just as Jesus is. Amen.
@@Shawn-q3x Thanks for engaging.
Do you read Greek? Have you read commentaries on those verses? Grammatically, especially in the Greek, a lot of your arguments are possible, but unlikely. The consensus on Romans 9:5 and Titus 2:13 is that God is used as a description of Jesus Christ in those verses.
You don't find "Before Abraham, I am" convincing, but it certainly seems confusing of Jesus to use Exodus 3:14 language 3 times in one speech. And they wanted to stone him at the end, so he was definitely saying something extremely controversial.
I'll give it one more try.
Have a look at Psalm 102:25-27. Who is the "you" in those verses?
I would answer by saying "my God" in verse 24 and Yahweh according to verse 1 and verse 12. Do you agree?
Now, look at Hebrews 1:10-12. Who are those verses written about? They are the same verses quoted from Psalm 102, so the answer must be God/Yahweh. Now, look at Hebrews 1:8. These verses were written about the Son.
Hebrews 1 therefore presents the Son as a separate person from God the Father, but also as God Himself. This is Trinitarian theology. God is one being, but three persons. You keep using verses (like John 3:16 and Romans 8:16-18) that distinguish between God and Jesus, as though this proves your point. But, the verses you quote do not pose any problems to Trinitarian theology, which the Church has believed since the very beginning. God the Father and God the Son can interact as separate persons and yet Jesus is truly God.