I work in medical field, so I know nothing electronic. However, I have enjoyed your show so much and been learning little by little from you. Thank you for your expertise!
Excellent video! You covered the REASONS whether they are worth tweaking or not. :) I don't have the test equipment to measure and produce charts but I'm glad you do! Phase is always a HUGE factor in my selection, so I tilt speakers back and forth, while playing music with wide frequency range and natural harmonics. Doing that usually lets me know if the speaker is good enough to live with. (I'm a Maggies guy, when there's room for them.)
A lot like the C-note kit I bought from Parts Express. $109 for the kit. 5" aluminum cone woofer and 1" neodymium tweeters. Pretty decent crossover as well. Really nice sound for 100 bucks.
@Danny Richie. Could you by any chance do a video on how you do actually do a crossover design, that is to say, how you go about developing a new crossover design for speakers such as these mini monitors? How do you swap out crossover parts when testing the crossover throughout its development? Do you use a breadboard testbed or do you have another method? Do you do on-axis and off-axis tests for every crossover part that you change? I'm super interested in your design and development methodology. Love the videos! I watch your channel as well as Ron and Randy's whenever I get the chance!
Those pioneers can be had for a song if you keep your eyes open. I got mine used for $40 CAD. A common modification is to cut the plastic out of the grille in front of the tweeter. Some folks have also swapped the tweeter for a Vifa but as you say you run out of legs with the woofer. Really interested to see if you can do anything with it.
It's amazing what some of these companies send out the door. Esp some of the well known brands like Polk... the fact it made it out to the floor with those kinds of polarity/phase issues is wild...
I love the sound of my Pioneers which I got for $99.00. I tried some Elac B6 1st gen and recently JBL Stage 130 and they had great detail but really flat midrange. Still kept the Pioneers. If you could get more resolution and detail out of them I would really be interested. Just love the richness of the tone of these little gems!
It would be nice to see before and after crossover schematics (without part values of course), to get a taste of the extent of the changes. Thanks D.C.
For $99 that Neumi actually seems ok. Seemed to have the best off axis response and the smoothest response overall besides the 1kHz bump and port issues.
Would LOVE to order an upgrade for the Neumis. I feel that they're pretty nice cheap and neutral speakers. Quite honestly I love em for the money. Any upgrade to keep those characteristics in tact but to increase detail and soundstage would be awesome! Didn't expect to see all these little speakers sent to you. Thanks for the vid Danny. 👍👍
ProAc - I believe they line them with bituminous sheets from the factory and put the yellow foam over it. At least that's what my 80's ProAc speaker had in it.
Pick up some Sony SC5's. I 'upgraded' oddly enuff from 1000 dollar JBL studio towers to these 150 dollar Hi-Res Sony speakers and while they sound amazing, the mids aren't quite as good, but I'm happy with the switch.
The little 4" woofer in the Pioneer is actually quite impressive. I think it would be worth the effort. I replace the components with Dayton 1% caps and mills resistors and it is a decent little speaker.
FYI: The Polk T15 is designed to be listened to off-axis. Not truly meant to be a 'bookshelf' speaker. Polk knew the T15 would be purchased by more casual listeners. The type of person who would never think to purchase speaker stands, and just place them where it is convenient.
They have bituminous pads under that yellow stuffing too. Makes them heavy. Almost as heavy as ATC, though the ATC is due to the magnet as they don;t use damping pads on the smaller speakers afaik.
I've got some oldish AR58s I bought back in the early 1980s. They sounded great back in the day, but now they are getting a bit tired. They have a lot of sentimental value, and the walnut cabinets still look pretty nice. Had them apart a few years ago (suspension repair on the woofers), and I remember the crossover network looking a little cheap. Wondering if the cabinets would be a good candidate for a complete rebuild (drivers, crossovers, etc.). If anyone could weigh in on that, I would appreciate it. I hate to replace them if I don't have to.
According to the designer the T15 is designed to be listening to it at 15 degrees above or below axis and not on axis. Doesn't mean it's not bad but that's how it was designed.
@@crazydwarfer no need to wait audioholics has detailed measurements of the speaker. I'll be interested to see if he does anything to it and how well he can fix it though.
@@TylerStout yes, I've seen their review a long time ago. I also sent a link to the article to Danny. Interested in seeing what can be done with them (or cannot :))). I'd like to see if the off axis vertical measurements will differ :)
I own a set of T15's and I always thought they sounded very pleasing. I would be interested to see what $100/pr into the Polk T15 upgrade would produce.
I've fiddled with speakers before and found that out of phase tweeter can have a pleasing effect. Maybe it gives a sense of wider sound area due to your ear receiving more off axis sound. Still, that speaker really is a cheapo compared to say the Neumi
I personally did not like the sound my T15's and had the crossovers professionally redone at Solen.ca . The sound improvement blew my mind. I was lucky enough to audition them besides some Dynaudio Special 40's and the new improved Polks stood their ground, albeit they slightly under performed on the bass front. Am looking forward to see Dany tweek the T15's and see the results on a upcoming video.
Are drivers more important than crossover? Is it better to have good drivers matched than high quality crossover or the opposite? What makes sense to a company trying to save money?
@@daijoubu4529 6 1/2 easy. But it's not just about bass. These play flat to above 3k. This unit is a very special piece of kit considering the cost. Very accurate and versatile.
Got my pioneers for $47 a pair delivered. Consider a fun speaker with enhanced boomey base not controlled musical sounding. The highs heightened some recordings for a prolongedperiod tend to make your eardrums bleed. For the price point can’t be beat for $47 a pair on sale. Audiokarma and DIYaudio have some extensive forms dedicated to this monitor. Twitter change out reworked crossover. At $47 for the pair don’t mind spending a little extra for a crossover enhancement for tweeter replacement That would bring me up to the suggested full retail price .
You don't need to spend a lot about 2 dollars get two resistors at 7 w each non-inductive, 2%, 1 at 12 ohms 1 at 8ohms put the 12 ohm in parallel with the tweeter the 8ohms inline, remove the original resistor, connect the parallel resistor on the first side of the inline resistor will give you less output lower baffle step put it on the other side will add a bit bright output. You could try putting the tweeter out off-phase as well
Why are you leaving us hanging? Many of us are here to learn about possible upgrade paths on these popular speakers, specifically the Pioneer FS/BS. Since cabinetry is a major issue for DIY, using a ready-made makes sense. So, what are specific cost-effective upgrades we can do to driver/crossover to improve these? A better tweeter for $25? Better crossover caps? Otherwise, this is just rambling that goes nowhere. Present a plan. If you're having a foggy day, try using a script and some labels.
Can anyone please tell me why speakers are still being shielded in this day in age? I was of the understanding that shielding was more important during the days of the Winchester hard drive and CRT TV/Monitor.
Hi Danny awesome vid as well, question: Dont companies do measurements before finalising a product? It seems that with a very small cost to them they can make a great speaker most of the times but they dont do it. Wtf?
They intentionally do not build flat speakers in some cases. They build fun party speakers for the people who play the type of music that have more room on the bottom end and they like it and those higher sparkly ear piercing highs is intentional for a certain genre of music for age bracket of listeners. They are not target marketing people who listen to Mozart or Thelonious Monk or solo Spanish guitar or solo vocalist. The pioneer speaker is an excellent example of that boomey bottom and over emphasize with sparkling heightened highs
@@coldfinger459sub0 While there are times this happens, I think it's moreso a cost cutting issue or perhaps some changes occurred in the final versions of the drivers and they didn't redesign the crossover. When you're building a speaker this cheap, fewer crossover components is also really important as a cost saver.
@@Cujobob just think if I bought those pioneer speakers for $47 brand new on sale free shipping. And most likely the distributor still made 50% to 100% profit margin. Even $10 would be a high price in component inbox manufacturing. Last 20 years traveling to China for parts requisition of components large manufacturers I can tell you the crossovers barely have $1.25 in parts on them. On those cheap parts if we look them up for resale to the retail public even buying them in lots of 1000 there’s still several hundred percent mark up on each one of those parts no joke
I got my T-15's for an extra bedroom on sale for under $60 shipped. So all I need to do is swap the tweeter connectors to make it sound a little better? OK
@@Audiomainia2310 pfft... They are well worth the $60 I paid - I mean what is expected for 60 bucks? Already swapped the leads and they do do sound about 20 dollars better already. ha
I bought a pair of the Polks a few years ago. Honestly, aside from crap that comes with boom boxes and stuff, the worst sounding speakers I've ever owned. Polk makes some great speakers, it amazes me that they have allowed this garbage to sell all these years with their name on it. I gave them away. I own the Neumis. Surprisingly good, but a bit rolled on on the high end for my tastes.
@@vaughntonkin539 most anything blows these Polks away. It's amazing that a company who builds other speakers that are excellent still sells a turd like the T-15s.
I use T15's (which I've owned for probably 10 years) as desktop speakers being pushed by a late 80's Kenwood KA-127 two channel amp at 125wpc. The Polk's take a beating but keep on tickin' lol. For giggles I swapped the Polks out with the surrounds from my HT system which were Jamo S801's, the difference was night and day. Much clearer highs and bass was more defined and tighter. Needless to say, the T15's will be going to the garage system, once i pull the trigger on something else. We live in a grand era of inexpensive, "good" audio equipment that can be had.
@@cloudyday3700 See the vertical and horizontal off axis responses though. They measure really poor in all directions. The parts quality was horribly bad as well.
@@dannyrichie9743 I have to get this off my chest because fabulous is an understatement. The Proac Tablette is Magical. And you commenting on them negatively WITHOUT listening to them is Ludicrous. No, you can't hear speakers by measurement. The most pleasing sounding speakers and amps don't measure well.
People are sending you $100 speakers? What the heck do people expect you to do with them? Plus, you are probably spending the cost of the speakers just for shipping back and forth. "Perplexing" 🤔
I am in Ukraine physically, I've purchased the Polk one for 22$ on eBay, and sent it in :) I'm waiting for my wife and mother in law to allow me to design my home theater at home from scratch (new dedicated building), but I bet it will not happen in about next couple of years. I have my LCR right now consisting of Polk T15s, Center T30, and Surrounds T15s. And even purchasing those used (Center from eBay USA delivered to Ukraine) was a heck of a fight with my wife :) A new pair of T15S costs about $300 in Ukraine, T30 retails for $280, and thus for new ones you have to invest $880 (2 fronts, 2 Surrounds, and a center). I have what I have for now. For my future theater I want to DIY the full XLS Encore 5.1.4 system with floor standing fronts. However, as of now, I am stuck with what I have for at least a couple of years. And thus, if I can somehow improve what I have for lets say $800 for my T15s and my T30, I'll do that :) Hope you understand my motivation now :)
Exactly. These idiots are spending money on what? Upgrades for $100 speakers? Spending money on this fools snakeoil instead of just buying better speakers. Idiots. Idiots.
@@staLkerhu What "mess" are you talking about? How would uneven impedance affect what you hear if it only changes the amp output CURRENT but any speaker's frequency response is based on the amp's output VOLTAGE? The only case where that could really matter is some tube amp with really high output impedance.
@@johnsweda2999 As long as an amp is capable to provide needed (to play loud) voltage the high impedance just means less current (from the amp) and less distortion (in the amp). The most of the pro speaker drivers are 8 Ohms and 16 Ohms.
@@IliyaOsnovikov drivers with uneven impedance have different loudness with the same transformer (PSU) on the same volume. Easy, lower impedance drivers require less voltage than higher impedance drivers for the same output power, so if you drive them with the same voltage, the drivers with lower impedance will be louder :) Of course this is sensitivity dependant too.
I don't know, I have the Polk T15s as computer speakers (I have a sub as well) and was horrified to see the freq response graph you showed. I did a quick (and very dirty) check using a test cd response sweep and the uncalibrated spectrum analyser app on my iPhone and it looked *nothing* like the response you got - indeed pretty flat. Certainly not a great test but leads me to suspect that the sample you got might have some issue (no tone or equalization is in use). For the money they are pretty good little speakers.
A different review suggested that having the speakers a bit higher (or lower) might compensate for the dip they saw (somewhat different than the dip Danny reported) I was a little lower than the speakers when I measured (but I sit lower than them in use - they are above me on a shelf). In any case, they aren't wonderful but in my experience they don't sound bad, especially for the money. Don't expect these little Polks to be as good as the X-Statiks I have on my main system - they are awesome!
Correcting cheap speakers is a choice. Maybe it's an idea to introduce a line of cheaper (but accepteble) crossover parts. You navigate to high quality parts (tI relate very much), but I get the sence that is overkill.
You can buy parts of the same value that are, impossible to tell apart, for about $20. Even high end speaker brands use "cheesy" parts because they already understand that sonically, they're the same.
@@Clobercow1 I have just upgraded my Monitor Audio Gold crossovers. Apart from the woofers, which had iron core inductors, the rest were reasonably decent aircores and polycaps, no electrolytics. I fitted expensive Mundorf components of much higher grade and I can tell you that my wife, who is not an audiophile, can clearly hear a difference. I am delighted with the upgrade and can highly recommend spending the money. However, the source I am using is also of a very high standard, so there is plenty of low level information reaching the speakers in the first place.
@@frankverschoof8083 I should have made myself clearer, the main caps are Mundorf M-Cap Supremes with Hoveland 0.01uF bypass caps on the tweeters. I also fitted Mills wirewound resistors and used Neotech OCC copper link cable. It wasn’t a cheap upgrade! 😆. But it was worth every penny.
Ummm. The ProAc is a different "animal". The cross-over is simple... jokingly so. Because the brains behind the sound is within the customized drivers. Stewart Tyler fully understood clones would cometh. "Why pay so much for a 2-way...I can build it myself for less than triple the cost". Many have ended up-paying double to cost of a pair of new ProAc, because they are designed from the inside-out. 😂. You don't "see" or have access to, the technology that makes them sound like you are listing to a live event taking place in your living room. Just saying.
NHT, now hear this. Everybody reading this go explore that brand. Their model super zero is borderline unbelievable. $125 a piece and easily competes with 500 to 1000$ Speakers. I'm not kidding you have to check these things out. The soundstage they put up will blow your mind.
Make it interesting, blind listening test followed by spectral analysis, then remedies if needed. This kind of video implies that the best way to judge the most appetizing and delicious meal is to analyze the chemical compounds in the food to access how palatable they might be. In short, ludicrous.
"Four mini monitors", .... I look left & right, and, my Klipsch Promedia's SCREAM, " AM I A JOKE TO YOU!!!!!", .. and, .. NO, ... NO!!!, .. they are NOT!!! ......
Oh dear oh dear, doesn't say much for Proac. And they say they use the finest crossover components. Can you actually buy a loudspeaker that is actually well made. Just like in my ATC, very disappointed with the internal wiring, talk about mediocre
@@dannyrichie9743 I’m really curious about what your opinion would be on the Monitor Audio Platinum 100 IIs . I do have a pair but the box weighs 40Kg and I’m on the other side of the pond, in Europe.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for your quick reply. I’m not surprised, if I must say. On my Platinums they use a metal cone crossed at 3KHz to an AMT tweeter, so I guess we’ll have some break up there. It’s just because they promise good caps, tight tolerances and good internal wiring on the Platinums (and they should, for the price). But I’m happier with my much cheaper ATCs SCM11s, so the MAs are just waiting to be sold.
@@thomasmleahy6218 Hey Thomas I'd tend to disagree to a certain extent. Danny (rightfully) puts a lot of importance on "quality of parts". They make a big difference to his final kits and he's confident they make a big difference ***even if they don't measure differently***. Here he's compared multiple models of bookshelf and openly acknowledged that the proac woofer was cast, not stamped, and the tweeter has a significantly bigger motor assembly than the others. The cabinet is also much more heavily damped. Sorry but there is a reason why this speaker is (accounting for inflation) 6-8x the price of the others, and the results of that would be VERY audible, even in their stock state. No doubt danny's improvements will be improvements and it's clear the crossover parts were cheap, but showing the frequency responses of the speakers doesn't mean they all sound the same or are in the same ballpark. It's just a starting point. Those tablette 50's, stock, would smoke the doors off any of the others in a reasonable hifi set-up. (Kudos to Jones' pioneers which are without a question the best value and might even be the most listenable of the bunch).
@@andrewbardwell4832 as it so happens, studio 100s are likely one of their best values ever made and I could probably live with them as my only speaker, forever.
Those $99,- can really only cost about $12,- a piece to make as Danny rightfully observes. At that point you would be better to buy a vintage pair for $99,- and then send that in for an upgrade. At least you will end up with something special like that instead of lipstick on a pig.
Polk RTi4's can often be had for $60-$80 on ebay/craigslist. Should trounce any of those 4. A little on the bright side though. Infinity IL10's (or 40's for that matter @ $175), Mordaunt Short 902's, Episode 700's, the list goes on and on.
Proac state in their marketing of their speakers, only the finest components are used in their crossovers. So it appears that they are lying and deceiving potential customers. To me this says avoid.
Some of the X-over parts don’t need to be TOTL, but be adequate enough to get the desired effect. Stewart Tyler was never a “spec guy”, he was all about sound reproduction, and his products receive unanimous accolades. Keep in perspective the OP sells DIY kits globally, this is a business.
@@user-se8xq3xg3m Spec or not, those components cost pennies, there's no reason to cut cost rather than greed on such expensive speakers, they could have used better components and drive the BOM up by $5 and still have a large margin....I mean the bookshelfs that cost half or even 1/4 the price have better looking crossovers lol
So wrong..... Go look at the spin data after Neumi equed them using his measurement. No I don't work for them. I'm just astounded how good they are with the ports stuffed and the amp tweaked!
imo, in a lot of your videos, you Fail to make a very serious Point - the Driver design and manufacturing process, all you talk about are the cross-over circuits...if this is how simple it was, you wouldn't have sound differences between speakers, if all it was, was in fact the cross-over design and parts... for Example, the EPOS ES12 sound amazing!!! and it has no cross-over at all, just a Cap on the tweeter, there is a reason why people love these speakers and why they are highly sought after, I will buy in a hearth beat the EPOS ES14, once I find one next... Cheers! you are not telling people the whole Truth and the analysis printout is kind of meaningless if the speakers sound great, if they didn't, the company would not have been successful, they would have failed and not have so many great reviews in HiFi magazines, etc...
Actually what I am talking about is the real heart of the speaker and what really makes or breaks it. I have had the Epos ES12's in here as well. They were nothing to get excited about. Our little X-LS Encore model eats it for lunch and dinner. We also designed a real crossover for it and improved its overall sound.
@@rompstar If you think those are awesome then you haven't really heard awesome. Every kit we offer are in a higher performance league than those speakers.
I work in medical field, so I know nothing electronic. However, I have enjoyed your show so much and been learning little by little from you. Thank you for your expertise!
Poking the Polk! Great assessment and eye opening! Thanks, Danny!
Excellent video! You covered the REASONS whether they are worth tweaking or not. :) I don't have the test equipment to measure and produce charts but I'm glad you do!
Phase is always a HUGE factor in my selection, so I tilt speakers back and forth, while playing music with wide frequency range and natural harmonics.
Doing that usually lets me know if the speaker is good enough to live with. (I'm a Maggies guy, when there's room for them.)
A lot like the C-note kit I bought from Parts Express. $109 for the kit. 5" aluminum cone woofer and 1" neodymium tweeters. Pretty decent crossover as well.
Really nice sound for 100 bucks.
Interested to see how the Neumi speaker works out - thanks for the video!
@Danny Richie. Could you by any chance do a video on how you do actually do a crossover design, that is to say, how you go about developing a new crossover design for speakers such as these mini monitors? How do you swap out crossover parts when testing the crossover throughout its development? Do you use a breadboard testbed or do you have another method? Do you do on-axis and off-axis tests for every crossover part that you change? I'm super interested in your design and development methodology. Love the videos! I watch your channel as well as Ron and Randy's whenever I get the chance!
Those pioneers can be had for a song if you keep your eyes open. I got mine used for $40 CAD. A common modification is to cut the plastic out of the grille in front of the tweeter. Some folks have also swapped the tweeter for a Vifa but as you say you run out of legs with the woofer. Really interested to see if you can do anything with it.
I have a set of those Neumis for my SS. I like them. Looks like I'll be looking for some foam to plug those ports.
It's amazing what some of these companies send out the door. Esp some of the well known brands like Polk... the fact it made it out to the floor with those kinds of polarity/phase issues is wild...
That's why my T15 sounded like shit
Thanks! Just bought a pair of neumi for my desk
I hope you make a kit for the pioneer. Been waiting. I would put a couple hundred dollars into it
I love the sound of my Pioneers which I got for $99.00. I tried some Elac B6 1st gen and recently JBL Stage 130 and they had great detail but really flat midrange. Still kept the Pioneers. If you could get more resolution and detail out of them I would really be interested. Just love the richness of the tone of these little gems!
They are great
@coastal-tan I have a pair of $73.00 SSCS5s coming today! What was your verdict on the GR Research upgrade?
@@jimwvisi how do you like the stage a130 comparatively?
The follow up will be interesting for these speakers.
I really like my Polk Rt35i speakers. I have them paired with 2 cylinder SVS sub woofers.
I really like my 1995 A450 NHT SuperZero monitors. They are awesome and also very compact.
It would be nice to see before and after crossover schematics (without part values of course), to get a taste of the extent of the changes. Thanks D.C.
Love your honesty...can always count on you to tell us the truth! Respect!
For $99 that Neumi actually seems ok. Seemed to have the best off axis response and the smoothest response overall besides the 1kHz bump and port issues.
Would LOVE to order an upgrade for the Neumis. I feel that they're pretty nice cheap and neutral speakers. Quite honestly I love em for the money. Any upgrade to keep those characteristics in tact but to increase detail and soundstage would be awesome! Didn't expect to see all these little speakers sent to you. Thanks for the vid Danny. 👍👍
ProAc - I believe they line them with bituminous sheets from the factory and put the yellow foam over it. At least that's what my 80's ProAc speaker had in it.
Yes it’s from the factory. Probably designed to allow ProAc to easier tune the speakers.
You don't get MONITORS for 100 dollars or pounds
I don't know who I feel about having that indoor, it is carcinogenic lol
Got my Polk t15s on sale for 49 bucks. I use them in my living room. Honestly I can’t wait to replace them.
Pick up some Sony SC5's. I 'upgraded' oddly enuff from 1000 dollar JBL studio towers to these 150 dollar Hi-Res Sony speakers and while they sound amazing, the mids aren't quite as good, but I'm happy with the switch.
Dan, any plans to make a affordable Open Baffle mini monitor kit?
Had the Polk T15 for my PC, didnt like it. Replaced it with the S15 which is on another level entirely.
The little 4" woofer in the Pioneer is actually quite impressive. I think it would be worth the effort. I replace the components with Dayton 1% caps and mills resistors and it is a decent little speaker.
The bigger enclosure would help it get more extension. I wouldn't say it's limited by extension but rather, SPL compared to the others.
Pioneer is proud to have the bragging rights on Andrew Jones , I hope he is proud
But AJ is with ELAC now?
FYI: The Polk T15 is designed to be listened to off-axis. Not truly meant to be a 'bookshelf' speaker. Polk knew the T15 would be purchased by more casual listeners. The type of person who would never think to purchase speaker stands, and just place them where it is convenient.
The stands would cost more than the speaker 😅
they are designed for tv/surround duty
Proac comes w/factory 'borosilicate' coating painted on. Did they coat all surfaces, or just a few??
Thank you, Danny!
On the 1SC they lined all 4 sides.
I'm pretty sure the stuffing in the Proac is standard. My old Proac Studio 100 had yellow stuffing.
I have a set of Studio 100s... I’ve had them for roughly 25 years - love the sound
They have bituminous pads under that yellow stuffing too. Makes them heavy. Almost as heavy as ATC, though the ATC is due to the magnet as they don;t use damping pads on the smaller speakers afaik.
@@RennieAsh Oh yes, I remember, quite thick damping pads IIRC.
I've got some oldish AR58s I bought back in the early 1980s. They sounded great back in the day, but now they are getting a bit tired. They have a lot of sentimental value, and the walnut cabinets still look pretty nice. Had them apart a few years ago (suspension repair on the woofers), and I remember the crossover network looking a little cheap. Wondering if the cabinets would be a good candidate for a complete rebuild (drivers, crossovers, etc.). If anyone could weigh in on that, I would appreciate it. I hate to replace them if I don't have to.
I wonder what you think of the Polk Reserve bookshelves!
According to the designer the T15 is designed to be listening to it at 15 degrees above or below axis and not on axis. Doesn't mean it's not bad but that's how it was designed.
That's exactly how they are positioned in my room. However, I'll wait for Danny's vertical off-axis measurements to be sure.
@@crazydwarfer no need to wait audioholics has detailed measurements of the speaker. I'll be interested to see if he does anything to it and how well he can fix it though.
@@TylerStout yes, I've seen their review a long time ago. I also sent a link to the article to Danny. Interested in seeing what can be done with them (or cannot :))). I'd like to see if the off axis vertical measurements will differ :)
I have Infinity Beta 20 and interlude 50 that I would love to send in I also have the infinity Preludes but I don’t believe they need any help
I own a set of T15's and I always thought they sounded very pleasing.
I would be interested to see what $100/pr into the Polk T15 upgrade would produce.
I have the T15s also and I'm with you on their sound.
I've fiddled with speakers before and found that out of phase tweeter can have a pleasing effect. Maybe it gives a sense of wider sound area due to your ear receiving more off axis sound. Still, that speaker really is a cheapo compared to say the Neumi
I personally did not like the sound my T15's and had the crossovers professionally redone at Solen.ca . The sound improvement blew my mind. I was lucky enough to audition them besides some Dynaudio Special 40's and the new improved Polks stood their ground, albeit they slightly under performed on the bass front. Am looking forward to see Dany tweek the T15's and see the results on a upcoming video.
any speakers when play right music would sound good
Are drivers more important than crossover? Is it better to have good drivers matched than high quality crossover or the opposite? What makes sense to a company trying to save money?
I found your video interesting. I have the POLK T-15s and never really heard that hole. They actually sound good in my modest system.
Those Neumis are surprisingly decent.
I have a set of the powered ones with Erin's modifications you can find over at ASR.
For 130 bucks they are fantastic!
Thanks
The Neumi's really stole this shootout, didn't they.
Time to get multifocal lenses!
I hope you can come across one of the NHT's
We have had an NHT in as well. th-cam.com/video/34ZLOMndBjM/w-d-xo.html
The pioneer woofers outperform most 5 inch woofers, that includes speakers that cost 4x as much or more.
That's objectively false, but you do you. There are better drivers that're both smaller and cheaper than the Pioneer. They're not special.
Rather, there are bookshelves with 5 inch woofers that have less low-ends than the BS22 would be more accurate.
@@daijoubu4529 6 1/2 easy. But it's not just about bass. These play flat to above 3k. This unit is a very special piece of kit considering the cost. Very accurate and versatile.
Got my pioneers for $47 a pair delivered. Consider a fun speaker with enhanced boomey base not controlled musical sounding.
The highs heightened some recordings for a prolongedperiod tend to make your eardrums bleed.
For the price point can’t be beat for $47 a pair on sale. Audiokarma and DIYaudio have some extensive forms dedicated to this monitor. Twitter change out reworked crossover.
At $47 for the pair don’t mind spending a little extra for a crossover enhancement for tweeter replacement That would bring me up to the suggested full retail price .
You don't need to spend a lot about 2 dollars get two resistors at 7 w each non-inductive, 2%, 1 at 12 ohms 1 at 8ohms put the 12 ohm in parallel with the tweeter the 8ohms inline, remove the original resistor, connect the parallel resistor on the first side of the inline resistor will give you less output lower baffle step put it on the other side will add a bit bright output. You could try putting the tweeter out off-phase as well
I changed the capasitor with a good audio grade , really amazing
FYI... the Pioneer was designed by Andrew Jones who also designed the current Elac line of speakers... thus the possible similarity !!
Why are you leaving us hanging? Many of us are here to learn about possible upgrade paths on these popular speakers, specifically the Pioneer FS/BS. Since cabinetry is a major issue for DIY, using a ready-made makes sense. So, what are specific cost-effective upgrades we can do to driver/crossover to improve these? A better tweeter for $25? Better crossover caps? Otherwise, this is just rambling that goes nowhere. Present a plan. If you're having a foggy day, try using a script and some labels.
Can anyone please tell me why speakers are still being shielded in this day in age? I was of the understanding that shielding was more important during the days of the Winchester hard drive and CRT TV/Monitor.
Maybe it's some sort of magnetic concentration as it does redirect the magnetic field.
Hi Danny awesome vid as well, question: Dont companies do measurements before finalising a product? It seems that with a very small cost to them they can make a great speaker most of the times but they dont do it. Wtf?
Litterally they can buy a dats and be on their way yeah. But I like this challenge aspect of working what you if inclined.
They intentionally do not build flat speakers in some cases. They build fun party speakers for the people who play the type of music that have more room on the bottom end and they like it and those higher sparkly ear piercing highs is intentional for a certain genre of music for age bracket of listeners.
They are not target marketing people who listen to Mozart or Thelonious Monk or solo Spanish guitar or solo vocalist.
The pioneer speaker is an excellent example of that boomey bottom and over emphasize with sparkling heightened highs
@@coldfinger459sub0 While there are times this happens, I think it's moreso a cost cutting issue or perhaps some changes occurred in the final versions of the drivers and they didn't redesign the crossover. When you're building a speaker this cheap, fewer crossover components is also really important as a cost saver.
@@Cujobob just think if I bought those pioneer speakers for $47 brand new on sale free shipping. And most likely the distributor still made 50% to 100% profit margin.
Even $10 would be a high price in component inbox manufacturing.
Last 20 years traveling to China for parts requisition of components large manufacturers I can tell you the crossovers barely have $1.25 in parts on them.
On those cheap parts if we look them up for resale to the retail public even buying them in lots of 1000 there’s still several hundred percent mark up on each one of those parts no joke
I got my T-15's for an extra bedroom on sale for under $60 shipped. So all I need to do is swap the tweeter connectors to make it sound a little better? OK
No, you're better off writing that purchase off and getting a better speaker. Even Danny said they're trash.
@@Audiomainia2310 pfft... They are well worth the $60 I paid - I mean what is expected for 60 bucks? Already swapped the leads and they do do sound about 20 dollars better already. ha
@@zardoz2627To each his own.
I bought a pair of the Polks a few years ago. Honestly, aside from crap that comes with boom boxes and stuff, the worst sounding speakers I've ever owned. Polk makes some great speakers, it amazes me that they have allowed this garbage to sell all these years with their name on it. I gave them away. I own the Neumis. Surprisingly good, but a bit rolled on on the high end for my tastes.
The micca MB42 blow away the Polks
@@vaughntonkin539 most anything blows these Polks away. It's amazing that a company who builds other speakers that are excellent still sells a turd like the T-15s.
@@kencooper2059 Polk should market these as TURD-15
I use T15's (which I've owned for probably 10 years) as desktop speakers being pushed by a late 80's Kenwood KA-127 two channel amp at 125wpc. The Polk's take a beating but keep on tickin' lol. For giggles I swapped the Polks out with the surrounds from my HT system which were Jamo S801's, the difference was night and day. Much clearer highs and bass was more defined and tighter. Needless to say, the T15's will be going to the garage system, once i pull the trigger on something else. We live in a grand era of inexpensive, "good" audio equipment that can be had.
The Neumi's would be an huge improvement I reckon
What about steel screws?
when do we get the results ? the Proac tablette 50 is a fabulous speaker
Fabulous speaker? It was not very well designed and used cheesy parts. It was no better than the rest of these cheap speakers.
@@dannyrichie9743 You said at the start of this it measured really well
@@cloudyday3700 See the vertical and horizontal off axis responses though. They measure really poor in all directions. The parts quality was horribly bad as well.
@@dannyrichie9743 I have to get this off my chest because fabulous is an understatement. The Proac Tablette is Magical. And you commenting on them negatively WITHOUT listening to them is Ludicrous. No, you can't hear speakers by measurement. The most pleasing sounding speakers and amps don't measure well.
i thought those were speakers.. not monitors?
What does it mean when you say the drivers are out of phase?
When the bass driver makes forward motion, the High frequency driver makes backward motion. Or vice versa.
Tweeter and woofer in phase are moving back and forth at the same time. Out of phase means one is moving in while the other is moving out.
Therapeutic
how are you measuring frequency response? you using pink noise or what? thanks
MLS
Less than that in China, those polks i heard has a 12.00 a pair in parts and labor.
really disappointed in the pro-ac parts quality for their price point and reputation
That was rather surprising with the Pro-Acs.
They had some reputation? Except having higher price tags? I would never even consider it.
@@peterpixo Then what would you consider ?
It's what they sound like that matters. I walked out with some proacs after testing everything in my price range at the shop
Thank you so much ，sir． 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
People are sending you $100 speakers? What the heck do people expect you to do with them? Plus, you are probably spending the cost of the speakers just for shipping back and forth. "Perplexing" 🤔
Actually I got my Pioneers on sale brand new in the box for the pair for $47. Just a small fun speaker for office rooms seldom used or secondary TVs
I am in Ukraine physically, I've purchased the Polk one for 22$ on eBay, and sent it in :) I'm waiting for my wife and mother in law to allow me to design my home theater at home from scratch (new dedicated building), but I bet it will not happen in about next couple of years. I have my LCR right now consisting of Polk T15s, Center T30, and Surrounds T15s. And even purchasing those used (Center from eBay USA delivered to Ukraine) was a heck of a fight with my wife :)
A new pair of T15S costs about $300 in Ukraine, T30 retails for $280, and thus for new ones you have to invest $880 (2 fronts, 2 Surrounds, and a center).
I have what I have for now. For my future theater I want to DIY the full XLS Encore 5.1.4 system with floor standing fronts. However, as of now, I am stuck with what I have for at least a couple of years. And thus, if I can somehow improve what I have for lets say $800 for my T15s and my T30, I'll do that :) Hope you understand my motivation now :)
@@crazydwarfer have fun
Exactly. These idiots are spending money on what? Upgrades for $100 speakers? Spending money on this fools snakeoil instead of just buying better speakers. Idiots. Idiots.
He provided useful info for anyone with thise Neumis that cost the viewer nothing but a little time.
🙋👍❤️
Decent set of drivers for one side cost $100 - impossible
What's an issue with a higher impedance besides less load to an amp?
There is none you want high impedance more so on the woofer
You want every single driver to have the most similar impedance load they can have, otherwise the speaker will be a huge unbalanced mess...
@@staLkerhu What "mess" are you talking about? How would uneven impedance affect what you hear if it only changes the amp output CURRENT but any speaker's frequency response is based on the amp's output VOLTAGE? The only case where that could really matter is some tube amp with really high output impedance.
@@johnsweda2999 As long as an amp is capable to provide needed (to play loud) voltage the high impedance just means less current (from the amp) and less distortion (in the amp). The most of the pro speaker drivers are 8 Ohms and 16 Ohms.
@@IliyaOsnovikov drivers with uneven impedance have different loudness with the same transformer (PSU) on the same volume. Easy, lower impedance drivers require less voltage than higher impedance drivers for the same output power, so if you drive them with the same voltage, the drivers with lower impedance will be louder :)
Of course this is sensitivity dependant too.
I don't know, I have the Polk T15s as computer speakers (I have a sub as well) and was horrified to see the freq response graph you showed. I did a quick (and very dirty) check using a test cd response sweep and the uncalibrated spectrum analyser app on my iPhone and it looked *nothing* like the response you got - indeed pretty flat. Certainly not a great test but leads me to suspect that the sample you got might have some issue (no tone or equalization is in use). For the money they are pretty good little speakers.
The one that was set in did indeed have the drivers out of phase from the factory. Maybe it was a factory screw up.
For the money, they are a terrible value. You can get a pair of sony sscs5's for the same price or lower.
A different review suggested that having the speakers a bit higher (or lower) might compensate for the dip they saw (somewhat different than the dip Danny reported) I was a little lower than the speakers when I measured (but I sit lower than them in use - they are above me on a shelf). In any case, they aren't wonderful but in my experience they don't sound bad, especially for the money. Don't expect these little Polks to be as good as the X-Statiks I have on my main system - they are awesome!
That's a good point.
@@dannyrichie9743 You might be right about that. I certainly can't hear that problem with mine.
Correcting cheap speakers is a choice. Maybe it's an idea to introduce a line of cheaper (but accepteble) crossover parts. You navigate to high quality parts (tI relate very much), but I get the sence that is overkill.
You can buy parts of the same value that are, impossible to tell apart, for about $20. Even high end speaker brands use "cheesy" parts because they already understand that sonically, they're the same.
@@Clobercow1 I have just upgraded my Monitor Audio Gold crossovers. Apart from the woofers, which had iron core inductors, the rest were reasonably decent aircores and polycaps, no electrolytics. I fitted expensive Mundorf components of much higher grade and I can tell you that my wife, who is not an audiophile, can clearly hear a difference. I am delighted with the upgrade and can highly recommend spending the money. However, the source I am using is also of a very high standard, so there is plenty of low level information reaching the speakers in the first place.
@@markcarrington8565 Excellent! 👍 However, i still recommend a capacitor chance, the differences are bigger then inductors. No rush!
@@frankverschoof8083 I should have made myself clearer, the main caps are Mundorf M-Cap Supremes with Hoveland 0.01uF bypass caps on the tweeters. I also fitted Mills wirewound resistors and used Neotech OCC copper link cable. It wasn’t a cheap upgrade! 😆. But it was worth every penny.
@@markcarrington8565 You did your homework, Respect!
Ummm. The ProAc is a different "animal". The cross-over is simple... jokingly so. Because the brains behind the sound is within the customized drivers.
Stewart Tyler fully understood clones would cometh. "Why pay so much for a 2-way...I can build it myself for less than triple the cost".
Many have ended up-paying double to cost of a pair of new ProAc, because they are designed from the inside-out. 😂. You don't "see" or have access to, the technology that makes them sound like you are listing to a live event taking place in your living room. Just saying.
NHT, now hear this.
Everybody reading this go explore that brand. Their model super zero is borderline unbelievable. $125 a piece and easily competes with 500 to 1000$
Speakers. I'm not kidding you have to check these things out. The soundstage they put up will blow your mind.
“Hey, everybody.”
What's sup?.
Polk, Pioneer and Neumi are all inexpensive. ProAc are _very_ expensive.
The ProAc lining is standard fit.
Proac are $2500 not cheap.
I'ts the age.
One minute into the video and I'm laughing ....mmm what is this ....Polk t 50 whatever let's look at this little sucker
I am not surprised that the Polk was as bad as it is. Polk made good speakers in the last century, but they are real laughers now.
Make it interesting, blind listening test followed by spectral analysis, then remedies if needed. This kind of video implies that the best way to judge the most appetizing and delicious meal is to analyze the chemical compounds in the food to access how palatable they might be. In short, ludicrous.
"Four mini monitors", .... I look left & right, and, my Klipsch Promedia's SCREAM, " AM I A JOKE TO YOU!!!!!", .. and, .. NO, ... NO!!!, .. they are NOT!!! ......
I suspect Neumi should be pronounced noymi.
Oh dear oh dear, doesn't say much for Proac. And they say they use the finest crossover components. Can you actually buy a loudspeaker that is actually well made. Just like in my ATC, very disappointed with the internal wiring, talk about mediocre
I just shot a video on the ATC model 19. It will be out in the middle of this week.
@@dannyrichie9743 excellent, i was going to ask again. Can't wait to see it
@@dannyrichie9743 I’m really curious about what your opinion would be on the Monitor Audio Platinum 100 IIs . I do have a pair but the box weighs 40Kg and I’m on the other side of the pond, in Europe.
@@LuisCardoso-bo8yx I just measured and tested the Monitor Audio Studio 6. It did not real too well.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for your quick reply. I’m not surprised, if I must say. On my Platinums they use a metal cone crossed at 3KHz to an AMT tweeter, so I guess we’ll have some break up there. It’s just because they promise good caps, tight tolerances and good internal wiring on the Platinums (and they should, for the price). But I’m happier with my much cheaper ATCs SCM11s, so the MAs are just waiting to be sold.
"Proac"....."budget".....ummmmm....
The Glick- Yes! Big budget. Price suggests better speaker until Doctor Richie pulls the curtain aside.
@@thomasmleahy6218 Hey Thomas I'd tend to disagree to a certain extent. Danny (rightfully) puts a lot of importance on "quality of parts". They make a big difference to his final kits and he's confident they make a big difference ***even if they don't measure differently***. Here he's compared multiple models of bookshelf and openly acknowledged that the proac woofer was cast, not stamped, and the tweeter has a significantly bigger motor assembly than the others. The cabinet is also much more heavily damped. Sorry but there is a reason why this speaker is (accounting for inflation) 6-8x the price of the others, and the results of that would be VERY audible, even in their stock state. No doubt danny's improvements will be improvements and it's clear the crossover parts were cheap, but showing the frequency responses of the speakers doesn't mean they all sound the same or are in the same ballpark. It's just a starting point. Those tablette 50's, stock, would smoke the doors off any of the others in a reasonable hifi set-up. (Kudos to Jones' pioneers which are without a question the best value and might even be the most listenable of the bunch).
@@yuckysamson I have a set of ProAc Studio 100s, have had them for 25 years. I drive them with a Rega Brio amp and absolutely love the sound.
@@andrewbardwell4832 as it so happens, studio 100s are likely one of their best values ever made and I could probably live with them as my only speaker, forever.
👋 Hey Everybody
Those $99,- can really only cost about $12,- a piece to make as Danny rightfully observes. At that point you would be better to buy a vintage pair for $99,- and then send that in for an upgrade. At least you will end up with something special like that instead of lipstick on a pig.
Hell, I got a pair of JBL LX500 ( 3 way floor standers ) for $150.
Polk RTi4's can often be had for $60-$80 on ebay/craigslist. Should trounce any of those 4. A little on the bright side though. Infinity IL10's (or 40's for that matter @ $175), Mordaunt Short 902's, Episode 700's, the list goes on and on.
Proac state in their marketing of their speakers, only the finest components are used in their crossovers. So it appears that they are lying and deceiving potential customers. To me this says avoid.
Some of the X-over parts don’t need to be TOTL, but be adequate enough to get the desired effect. Stewart Tyler was never a “spec guy”, he was all about sound reproduction, and his products receive unanimous accolades. Keep in perspective the OP sells DIY kits globally, this is a business.
@@user-se8xq3xg3m Spec or not, those components cost pennies, there's no reason to cut cost rather than greed on such expensive speakers, they could have used better components and drive the BOM up by $5 and still have a large margin....I mean the bookshelfs that cost half or even 1/4 the price have better looking crossovers lol
Pioneer = Junk. Neumi = Junk. Polk = Junk. Proac = Decent.
So wrong..... Go look at the spin data after Neumi equed them using his measurement. No I don't work for them. I'm just astounded how good they are with the ports stuffed and the amp tweaked!
Neumi - port in the front = still junk
ProAc fu..up crossover = 50% junk
@@Hikebike365 You shouldn't have to do that to make them work. Proac are better.
I'm a vintage Polk man, these newer entry models are a joke
imo, in a lot of your videos, you Fail to make a very serious Point - the Driver design and manufacturing process, all you talk about are the cross-over circuits...if this is how simple it was, you wouldn't have sound differences between speakers, if all it was, was in fact the cross-over design and parts... for Example, the EPOS ES12 sound amazing!!! and it has no cross-over at all, just a Cap on the tweeter, there is a reason why people love these speakers and why they are highly sought after, I will buy in a hearth beat the EPOS ES14, once I find one next... Cheers! you are not telling people the whole Truth and the analysis printout is kind of meaningless if the speakers sound great, if they didn't, the company would not have been successful, they would have failed and not have so many great reviews in HiFi magazines, etc...
Actually what I am talking about is the real heart of the speaker and what really makes or breaks it. I have had the Epos ES12's in here as well. They were nothing to get excited about. Our little X-LS Encore model eats it for lunch and dinner. We also designed a real crossover for it and improved its overall sound.
@@dannyrichie9743 I disagree, the EPOS ES12 are awesome speakers!!
@@rompstar If you think those are awesome then you haven't really heard awesome. Every kit we offer are in a higher performance league than those speakers.
@@dannyrichie9743 who knows, maybe, I have many speakers ;) I collect them