The FAMILY of ANNE BOLEYN? Thomas & George Boleyn? Art history mystery | Unidentified Tudor man
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ย. 2023
- Are you looking at THOMAS AND GEORGE BOLEYN, father and brother of Anne Boleyn? In this week’s video from History Calling we take a look at these pictures created by famed artist, Hans Holbein the Younger, which depict two men from the court of Henry VIII and ask why have they been associated with the family of Anne Boleyn and do these identifications hold water?
We’ll look at the provenance of these Tudor portraits which have passed through the hands of King Henry VIII, King Edward VI, Henry FitzAlan, 12th Earl of Arundel, John, Lord Lumley, then perhaps Henry, Prince of Wales, followed by his brother King Charles I. It then Philip Herbert, 4th Earl of Pembroke, Thomas Howard, 14th Earl of Arundel, King Charles II & finally the rest of the Kings and Queens of England from Charles onwards. They are now part of the Royal Collection of art and are held at Windsor Castle.
The picture supposed to be of George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford, will be examined first. By showing you numerous versions of it held by archives and galleries including the Royal Collection Trust, the British Museum and the Art Institute of Chicago, as well as published versions of it dating back over 200 years, I will prove to you that this unidentified Tudor man is just that; unidentified. I will demonstrate that there is no reputable evidence that this image shows George (in fact there’s no evidence as to who it shows at all - it’s an art history mystery) and that this entire idea is a piece of pseudo-history, seemingly dreamt up in recent years by the internet and latched onto by many people who haven’t done any research on the topic.
The picture supposed to be of Sir Thomas Boleyn, Earl of Wiltshire and Ormond is more complicated as it does have a label on it identifying it as Ormond. However I will explain the history behind this title and the various men who held it during Henry’s reign to uncover the truth about who is shown in this image. This will include a discussion of how English and Irish titles work and which was considered better. I will also show you an undisputed picture of Sir Thomas Boleyn.
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Eric Ives, The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn (Wiley-Blackwell, 2005)
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Which of the Lords Ormond do you think the picture discussed is most likely to be and do you agree that there is nothing to suggest that the younger man is George Boleyn? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon on www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
I think the supposed George Boleyn looks like he might have a familiar relationship to the woman seen in the “A Lady, called Anne Boleyn” sketch, which I believe to be Anne (though, I’m gonna be honest, I have little proof to back it up, it’s more of a hunch, or a supposition to which I hold still lol), but, as we don’t know if it is her, this doesn’t really mean anything
Hmm, I wonder if that's the reason someone initially posted this picture on Wikipedia and said they thought it was George? Maybe they were comparing it to the supposed Anne picture as well? Of course it could be that our supposed Anne and George were indeed blood related, they just aren't the Boleyn siblings.
@@HistoryCalling Yeah, IF it is George, it would’ve been completely by chance. Also, that Anne sketch isn’t even amongst the best known of her, so Idk if wikipedia pseudo-historians would know of it (ok this is probably a stretch lmao)
Absolutely nothing to suggest it's George. Which is why, of course, it'll be Truth on the internet forever. 🤦🏼♀️ Thanks for the beautifully researched info on both sketches.
As always, your careful analysis is very convincing. The man labeled “ Ormond” cannot be Thomas because he’s too young. It doesn’t seem certain that the Ormond designation is even correct. As for the younger man, it apparently could have been any courtier of the time who was around that age.
As there is no portrait of Elizabeth (Howard) Boleyn either, it begins to feel like the entire family was wiped out even in an artistic sense. Except, ironically, for Mary Boleyn, whose portrait in the Royal Collection (and its copy at Hever) has been verified as authentic. I've read that the reason copies of her portrait would have survived is that they were sought after by her descendants.
Mary may have been fortunate that she was persona non grata at court after her secret marriage to Sir William Stafford and so not directly involved with her sister and brother's downfall. Her portraits may have been more or less out of sight--and as you were mentioning, of the three siblings she was the only one who had children who had descendants, and they might have had an interest in preserving them.
Ah, but they survived in Elizabeth, surely one of the most painted women of her time and still instantly recognisable to this day. I agree though that it would be lovely to have more images of them.
@@HistoryCalling I think I automatically excluded Elizabeth (amazing) because she herself did not have direct descendants. I edited my comment accordingly. Thanks.
In comparing the portrait of the unknown young man with portraits thought to be of Anne, and finding a certain resemblance, it's useful to remember that Anne had a huge family of cousins who might have looked like her. Her mother had 15 brothers and sisters, and her father had nine.
Yes, she did come from a big family. After all, her cousin ended up marrying her husband, which is just not normal from a modern perspective.
Siblings don't necessarily look alike anyway. My brother and I look nothing alike, and neither of us look like our parents. I look like one of my paternal 2nd great grannies (no photos of her folks so no clue who she looks like) and he looks like our 3rd great grandad (father in-law of 2nd great granny) and my dad looks like a completely different branch (the father of the son-in-aw of second great granny) so there is no guarantee that George would have looked like Anne or thier folks at all.
It doesn't even matter if I feel less interested in a topic anymore, if HC makes it I'm watching it.
Aww, thank you :-)
Your art history/portrait mystery videos are my favorites of yours. I love how you analyze the identifications and build your arguments for who you think the portraits are. I’m not really into art but portraits literally put faces to the names and make people who are long dead seem more real. They really help connect us to the past. Plus, who doesn’t love a good mystery, especially if we can solve it?
Thanks Kathleen. Like yourself I'm not generally a big art buff, but I make an exception for portraits of famous people :-)
I would love for you to go through the portraits of Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard! Love your channel!
Agreed
Another great showcase of your investigative skills, HC. I wonder if Holbein ever felt overwhelmed by his portrait workload. Great job and presentation as always!
THANK YOU STEPHEN for always being so generous. That's an interesting question. I wonder too if Holbein ever felt a bit overworked. He certainly had a lot to do at the English court.
@@HistoryCalling😆Too true! One of my favorite scenes in "Wolf Hall" was the imagined scene between Cromwell and Holbein. "What?! You going to hang me by my wrists until I talk?" 😆 Be well, HC.
So much is lost to history. Thank you for helping sort it all out.
You're very welcome :-)
Holbein‘s drawings are just brilliant. So vivid. Absolutely amazing.
I wish Holbein could know how valuable his sketches are to us history nerds and history in general.
I do feel like I can see some family resemblance in the sketches, especially in the shape of the nose and length of the face, but the power of suggestion is a powerful thing, and as we all know Anne's portraits we have came some time after her death, nevermind the argument that can be made of the popular portrait style at the time which inadvertently created similarities in many people. Holbein's original sketches were amazing, the paintings that were based on them removed the humanity he captured sooo well. It is a spectacular feeling to be able to look history in the eye, regardless of the true identity of the subjects.
Yes, I agree. No matter who the images depict, Holbein's pictures are so good that it's amazing just to look at them.
Yes I noticed a likeness as well round the mouth and shape of the mouth👌
@@HistoryCalling I just had to order a book of his art from Amazon a few years ago, funny enough, there's a sketch of an unidentified man who looks eerily like my husband, we bust it out for guests as a conversation starter. Hans is providing entertainment throughout the centuries haha
The "George" portrait bears an at least passing resemblance to the British Museum (1975,0621.22) picture of Anne .
I love all these videos on mysterious paintings made by ppl like Holbein. Could you possibly do a series about Holbein, like about his life, how he became known for painting, and especially, of his famous royal family portraits? 🙏🏼☺️
Good evening to history calling from Bea
Hi Bea. Hope you're in an arty, Tudors mood :-)
The two history Bea/Bees United again! Happy Friday, friend! ❤
Great that i could watch, instead of work today.
Just as long as you're not off sick though :-)
@@HistoryCalling nope, just expecting a hurricane tonight. Normally, i would be working all day.
Oh dear! I think that's worse than just having a cold. Stay safe please.
What HC wrote. Stay safe!
@@HistoryCalling i should be fine, but thanks. These sort of things happen here once in awhile. I guess it's worth living on the coast though. Nice chatting with you.
Great job as always. I recently referred someone to your video on Typhoid Mary as a source for a project they are working on. As someone who isn't working in historical research but did get her higher education in history, I have a huge respect for the effort you put into these videos and your process for vetting sources.
THANK YOU SO MUCH NICOLE for your very kind donation to the channel and generous words and for recommending me to your friend. I only hope the Typhoid Mary video was up to scratch!
I find it so odd that we can see some family resemblances between James' features and the ones in copies of Anne's portraits.
There's a creator Panagiotis Constantinou who does recreations of portraits and the thread of family resemblances is actually apparent with the English royalty.
Oh, I haven't heard of that channel but thank you for the tip :-)
He’s excellent isn’t he? 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
I do want to say thank you for your videos! As someone looking to go into archives, sometimes I feel I've learned more about historical research through you than I have from my historical methods class. Would be neat to see your process someday!
Thanks Megan. Yes, sometimes historical methods classes aren't all that great (and I say that as someone who has taught them, though I had little control over what I had to take the students though). I remember doing weekly source analysis as an undergrad, but by the time I was lecturing that seemed to have gone the way of the dinosaurs which is a pity. I suppose it probably differs from institution to institution though.
Yay! Finally some Dr Ms History! ❤
Highlight of the week 😊
I actually grew up East Ham, near where Boleyn palace was. When West Ham United were in their previous stadium, it was in the grounds and is why they’re known as the Boleyn boys, and feature a castle on their badge.
Little pointless personal trivia there haha
Thanks Jay. I didn't know that about the 'Boleyn Boys' :-)
😆 Not аt all, Jay! I find "pointless personal trivia" endlessly entertaining.
I got barred from the Boleyn in the early 80's. For not being a West Ham fan (although I did live in Spotted Dog Lane for about a year)!!! That is also historical fact. 😄
@@HistoryCalling they’re more commonly known as the ‘Cockney Boys’ which is the nickname that spreads a bit. Boleyn boys is, or rather was, more of a local name for them. I guess in a way they won against Henry, as they’re still part of the community.
@@chrisbanks6659 you'd be safe now! It's owned by a new family. Ironically, a pair of Man Utd fans! 😂
Ooooh I do love a good Art History mystery 🙌🙌
I think you'll like this then. You're getting a 2 for 1 in this video :-)
@@HistoryCallingFr!! It’s a double treat :))
New rule: if there is a person in your artwork you have to name them (full name not just title) and date it, and put your own full name 😅
Yes, it would have made our lives so much easier if Holbein had only followed that rule! :-)
How different our knowledge on portraits could’ve been if people just labelled their artworks 😭
Thomas Boleyn is my 7th cousin 15x removed, George Boleyn is my 1st cousin 15x removed as George's and Anne's mother Elizabeth Howard is my 14th great-grandaunt.
Thank you for yet another brilliant video! I have always admired your work with the sources and analytical approach which most of the videos on other channels lack. I always wait for Fridays because Friday means some quality time with your videos. ❤
Aww, thank you so much Helga. Have a wonderful weekend and I'll see you next week I hope.
I wish we can upload all the drawings/paintings of people in the Tudor era and run them through AI face recognition to sort them out 🙂
So many portraits of different people look aggressively similar, and paintings of the same person can look very different through time. AI only knows what we tell it to know, not sure how helpful it would be over actual historian eyes.
I'm sure at some point someone will try that.
Another utterly fascinating video. TY HC!! Personally, I'd like to think that the "Ormand" portrait is Anne's father because we have so few images with direct ties to her and her family that it would be incredibly disheartening if it wasn't. As you pointed out, there are many valid reasons to believe it is him, so I'm just going to go with it likely being him unless further information comes to light in the future to disprove that sentiment. As for "George"... I want to believe that is him too, but am more skeptical. The man in the portrait does sort of resemble most of the "B" portraits of Anne and a few of Elizabeth I too (long, pointy jaw lines and almond shaped, dark eyes), but that doesn't prove anything and could also be wishful thinking on my part? It's all very frustrating since we'll likely never really know for sure.
You never know. Maybe someday George will be disinterred and if there's enough of his skull left, they'll do a facial reconstruction.
I’ve seen this Holbein as George Boleyn and as an unidentified man. Thank you for clarifying this. Have a lovely weekend.
Definitely unidentified, but I do wonder who started the story about it being George.
We are going to need more evidence for this case. thanks for another great video.
You're very welcome :-)
I love art history! The "Thomas" picture probably stands more of a chance of it being related to Anne.
The "George" one is sketchy (excuse for the pun). It probably is some unknown guy.
Oh he's def. related to Anne. It's just a question of whether it's her father or her cousin. :-)
A neat bit of historical detective work.
Thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed it :-)
My first-off guess without even seeing the whole video yet is wow, the younger man looks a little like Anne, especially the one at 16:00! Perhaps that's where the whole rumor started. As a portrait artist myself, I know that artists tended to put their own 'stamp' on portraits and all of them share similar features because they were drawn by the same person. But I do see similar features to Ann such as the strong upper cheeks, narrow mouth, bump on the nose, and dark almond eyes. So the younger portrait remains a mystery.
However, I think you nailed it with the title because folks used their titles so heavily back then, we sometimes never even knew their real names. So many I talk to know of Lord Burghley but never new he was William Cecil (a distant ancestor of mine). So the elder portrait is likely James, I agree.
Happy Friday, History lovers and friends!! 💚📚📖 with Love from Bee of Indiana, USA.
With all the evidence presented, I'm also of the understanding that the portraits are not the Boleyns. Perhaps their kinsmen, James or even Piers. But I agree with you in there not being enough information to definitively conclude these are the father and brother of Queen Anne Boleyn.
As always a highly intriguing and wonderfully educational video. Looking forward to the next one!! ❤
Thanks Bee and greetings over in Indiana. See you next week :-)
Thanks! For another great video ❤
THANK YOU SANDRA for so kindly donating to the channel. I'm glad you enjoyed hearing about the pictures.
Great work as always. I look forward to Fridays to see what you've come up with!
Thank you so much. Glad you liked the video :-)
Your videos always make my Friday! I love learning about whatever it is you post! I have watched your videos multiple times and I think you create amazing content! Thank you so much!
And thank you so much for watching and rewatching. I wish everyone was as good as you :-)
Good eveing look forward everyweek for your videos love HISTORY !!!
Thank you so much Wendy. I hope this one doesn't disappoint :-)
I think it’s because of the “Anne” portrait. The woman supposed to be Anne Bolelyn in another Holbein sketch resembles this man. They have very similar noses, very similar looks. So if one was identified as Anne it’s seems for certain people, logical that this person is her brother.
Yes, I think that's the most likely explanation as to why this has been attached to George as well. It's not impossible it's him either, there's just no real evidence to support the claim.
@@HistoryCalling I agree there is no evidence. These two portraits,at least for me, have really contributed to my fascination with their ( her ) story. Believing that i can see their faces through Holbein’s eyes. I think évidence aside I’ll continue imagining them as such. Btw, I thoroughly enjoy your content !!❤️
Your channel makes me so happy.
Thank you so much :-)
I love your videos! Thank you for posting! ❤
And thank you for watching! :-)
Always wonderful, very interesting videos. I always watch them on Friday nights, a nice history treat.
Thank you so much. Glad to be of service :-)
This is soo cool. Thanks again for your detective work!
My pleasure. Thank you for watching and commenting :-)
Hi HC, thanks again for another of your trademark, thoroughly researched and accurate videos.
I’m going to have to watch this a few more times before I can answer your question, so much detail in there. !!
Thanks. 👍🏻
Thanks James :-)
Nice detective work! Very interesting bits on the titles too. They can be confusing.
Have a great weekend HC!
Yes, titles are confusing. Don't even get me started on when you can put Lady in front of your first name and when you can't.
Wow another amazing video. Every time I watch your videos I ALWAYS learn new things. You always give another perspective.❤
Great video loving your work
Thanks Vernon. Much appreciated :-)
Great video as always. Thank you
Thanks Cindy. Glad you found it interesting :-)
A very interesting video, thank you so much . 🌼
Thanks Gina :-)
Hi, good afternoon from Canada. Awesome live history video I enjoyed it. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Have a great day see you next video 😊
Hi Michelle. I'm good thanks, despite the rain we're currently experiencing here in Northern Ireland. Have a wonderful weekend.
Gosh congratulations on 200k! That shot up so quickly, not long ago (seemingly) it was 30k!
Another excellent video by my favourite historian!
Thank you. 💖
You're very welcome. Glad you enjoyed it :-)
Great video. Excellent detective work, as usual.
Thanks Robert. Glad you enjoyed it :-)
Thank you! I love your well researched videos I have seen so many “documentaries “ showing those pictures and making it seem that’s probably them how frustrating 😮 thank you for clearing up all the confusion
I'm right there with you. Seeing these pics presented as the Boleyns is what made me want to make this video actually.
Two pictures of courtiers from out of the past
The names of the sitters unclear
Whether Thomas or George a mystery fast
Will never be solved I do fear
Excellent little poem :-)
Lovely video. Thank you.
Thank you too :-)
thanks for the the new video, history calling- and shanah tovah to those who celebrate!
Thanks Zontiky :-)
Holbein did great portraits. Thanks for another great video. Have a great weekend
Yes, he was amazing. We're so lucky to have his work. Have a lovely weekend too.
Enjoy your weekend history calling from Bea 🇬🇧
Thanks. You too!! :-)
after a life long time reading Tudor history and great interest in the Tudor period iconography, i musy agree about the George Boleyn portrait.. after many years of Lord and Lady Rochford having no portraits available, all of a sudden this drawing became George Boleyn, another labelled Lady Parker became Jane Rochford, a drawing that had clothing like Anne of Cleves wore becamr her sister Amelia of Cleves, at least the Ormand drawing is associated with Thomas Boletn and there are others traditionally identified as Anne Boleyn, Catherine Howard and many others but the likenesses of the Rochfords did come much later. thanks for this video!!
I know. It's crazy. I think part of the problem is that the Tudors are endlessly popular, but they've been so heavily researched that there's really nothing new to say about them and so people make stuff up.
Excellent research and disciplined reasoning, and still, history often remains a best guess. And as with science, we eliminate so many more possibilities than we can ever affirm. As a kid, I used to fantasize about the Heaven Library, in which all our questions could be answered definitively, in infinite detail. I guess that explains why I'm here every weekend.
I love that name - 'Heaven Library'. I have a list of questions I'd love to have answered too.
Drawing of a young man: I wonder what are these geometric figures on his hat?
Just ornaments on the real hat I think.
Great job! Thank you
Thanks Nathan. Have a great weekend :-)
I will, and you also!
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH OKIEJAMMER for the very generous donation to the channel. Have a fantastic weekend :-)
Well, I’ve seen the supposed Thomas picture several times before (it’s very prominently featured in Antonia Fraser’s Six Wives book, for a start) always firmly labelled as Thomas Boleyn. I had no idea it actually wasn’t a positive identification.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen the picture of “George” before though. Or, I have no clear memory of ever having seen it.
This was very interesting to watch. Thank you for posting.
In fairness to Antonia Fraser, her book came out quite a long time ago before further research had demonstrated that this most likely isn't Thomas. I doubt she would present it as him now.
@@HistoryCalling Yes, it was first published in 1992, I think. So there’s probably a couple of things in there that have since been debunked.
⚘ Am curious if you have enough info to do a video on the mother of Mary, Anne and George Boleyn. I've always imagined her surviving the family tragedies and 'see' her as enjoying later life as a loving grandmother to Mary's children. Lord knows they deserved some Joy in their lives. LOVE YOUR WORK!
Maybe. I've never looked in her to be honest, so I'm not sure.
Elizabeth Howard died in 1538, two years after Anne, aged 57. She didn’t really survive her family tragedy
There are no images of Elizabeth Howard, and if I remember correctly, there isn't a lot of information about her. It might be hard to construct a good video about her.
@@edithengel2284 yeah pretty much the only info on her is when she was born, when she married, and a rumour that Elizabeth, who was considered quite beautiful, had been Henry’s mistress and that Anne may be Henry’s daughter, which historians discount because a) it only really began cropping up after the fall of the boleyns and may be people confusing Elizabeth Howard and Elizabeth Blount, and b) Henry would have been at most 16 and at youngest 10 when Anne was born, and there’s no evidence that Elizabeth was involved with Henry. Aside from that one paragraph that introduces and then dispels the rumour, there’s really nothing to talk about, aside from the fact that she appears to have not liked her daughter Mary much. It would barely pass the five minute mark as a video
@@emilybarclay8831 In the process of trying to shed Katherine, Henry admitted sleeping with Mary, but denied having slept with her mother. Yes: likely post-Boleyn fall gossip.
I don't think there's any reason to think it would be George but I can see why someone might have guessed that, the sitter would have to be someone notable enough to have his portrait done by Holbein, but also someone who had either fallen out of favour/died/moved away so that Cheke had never met him, but I wonder whether someone just *wanted* there to be a portrait of George Boleyn and went through the unidentified pics and choose the one which was possible timewise and beared some resemblance to descriptions of him/the family
Yes, I'd love to know too who started this whole story by uploading this picture to George's Wikipedia page. It's certainly taken off as a piece of pseudo-history.
Hello to my favorite narrator and most knowledgeable historian.
And hello to you :-)
Thomas Boleyn is known to have an good relationship with the king, so the first portrait is liked to be him. I'm curious to know more about George, however I've heard that there is no surviving portraits identified as George nor any physical description on of him.When he was taken to a lawcourt, George put on such a good defense that the judgement was given in favor of the accused but George threw it away with the defiant manner.The Duke of Norfolk handed him one paper and advised him to read silently but against this advice he read it aloud. It was accusations that Anne Anne had told George's wide Jane. So the verdict came down guilty.Great work as always.Thank you.
GEORGE BOLEYN!!! 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩 Legend! Probably my favourite person at Henry VIII's court!
...Ok, I'll comment properly about the actual video later when I have time, but I had to say "yay, thankyou for a video about George!" immediately! 😊
Thanks Beth. It's tragic what happened to him. Just related to the wrong person unfortunately. Some people still thought he'd be found not guilty though, as he put up such a good defence (which I think indicates he shared Anne's natural intelligence as it was no mean feat to defend yourself in a Tudor court, with no legal team and no advance warning of the charges or evidence).
It’s funny to see John Cheke mention here as he’s my direct ancestor that I’m only just now researching 😅
Great Video.
I seem to recall coming across a castle/tower house in Ireland belonging to the Boleyn’s where it’s claimed that George is buried ?!?
Hello, HC! I love your channel, and watched your videos all summer!
Holbein’s confirmed drawings and portraits *astound* me with how realistic and detailed they all look. It’s so rare to find an artist from that time period that doesn’t have a heavy level of stylization that you’d expect from older eras. Holbein’s works look almost as realistic as modern-day photographs.
(Funnily enough, my cousin’s girlfriend bears a striking resemblance to Holbein’s portrait of Jane Seymour, which she found amusingly delightful!)
Did Holbein ever create any portraits and/or sketches of Catherine of Aragon? I know there are several portraits debated to be her, but was a Holbein piece ever one of them?
I don't think so. Katherine was already on the outs with Henry during Holbein's first sojourn in England, and was in disgrace and died during his second period there. It seems unlikely that anyone would have commissioned a portrait of Katherine during either of those periods; and during the second period in which Holbein was present, access to the "Dowager Princess of Wales" was increasingly limited.
@@edithengel2284 Thank you very much! This answered my question perfectly!
I can't put it any better than Edith already did :-)
@@HistoryCalling "Praise from Caesar is praise indeed."
Thank you.
Hi Anna. You're very welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting :-)
Thank you once again for this well thought out video. Has anyone tried to determine if there is any meaning to the geometric images on the "George Boleyn" hat or is it just a design? Holbein often left visual allusions or puns in his work.
History calling can you please do a video on how Catherine of Aragon died
I did :-) I have one that looks at her death and burial and what happened to her grave. It's in my Six Wives of Henry VIII playlist if you want to take a look.
Cheers
Thanks Shane :-)
As always HC your skills are as formidable as always, as you have deduced from the many hours of research we have no way of knowing who the portraits are if you cant find any evidence in your though research, I concur with your theory thank you as always HC. 😊👍
Thanks Simon. Much appreciated. Have a lovely weekend. I hope it isn't raining where you are, as it is here in Northern Ireland!
@@HistoryCalling Thank you HC, I hope you have a good weekend and rain free, rain here in the west country though its dry now as we speak. ☔😊
I was thinking about the picture may have been thought to be George and Thomas Boleyn because they look alike. There is a resemblence to the sketches of Anne Boleyn. Those two men look remarkably similar. The sketch of Anne matches the most happy medal and the Nidhall portrait. It would be interesting to see if the AI thinks these are family members. The AI says the Nidgall portrait matches the most happy medal.
Imo that could still be Thomas Boleyn. Because of Thomas being father of Anne Boleyn and the story about why she almost married James. At the time of Anne marriage, he was known as Ormond.
I would suggest that it is possible that Cheke could have made a list of the sketches in a certain order and sometime between when his initial list was created and when it was recorded on the images that some sketches could have been lost, and others placed into a different order which results in the confusion and mislabelling of the sketches in the 18th century. It is not uncommon for books or collections of papers to be rebound by new owners over time and the known provenance of the sketches indicates to me that this is a possible explanation for why this could have happened. I have not done any research on this hypothesis but there is potential that if any inventories of the libraries of the people that owned the sketches exist there may be some indication there if the book descriptions are different and include or don’t include other items with the list for that book. This is something that is known to have happened with other library inventories although my knowledge of that is directly related to the transmission of medieval magic texts and not collections of sketches.
Yes, that's certainly possible. It's a pity Cheke (and indeed Holbein) didn't jot his labels onto the pictures himself.
Thanks
THANK YOU SO MUCH MARY for your very generous donation to the channel. Hope you enjoyed hearing about the Holbein pics :-)
Oooo. Are we getting the Happy Families Cards out today? Goody gum drops 😃
Haha, that's a good way to think about these portraits (if only they actually were close relatives).
I think the sketch labelled Ormond is of James Butler. Looking at portraits of his son, "Black" Tom Butler, there's a passing resemblance. I need to dig through my notes about a known visit that Piers made to the Court (I think for his ennoblement as Earl of Ossory) to see what dates he was there. I can tell you a good bit about his gift exchanges, though, as gift exchange as a political tool of the Tudor conquest of Ireland is what my dissertation is about!
Another fascinating video! You spoke of the clothing that was worn in the first picture (of James) as being representative of what was worn during that period, but nothing was said about the second picture? You indicated that in the drawing it was quite faint and then in the other prints you showed, there was a lot more clothing depicted. Was this added?
Sorry. Yes, the second picture with the big hat worn on the side of the head and the plumbs on it it is very 1530s too, as is the big fur collar (again, compare to Henry VIII and even Edward VI in the 1540s to see some other examples). Yes, people who took the drawings and coloured them made some tweaks to the lower part of the body to fill it out a bit more I suppose. I struggle to see the buttons and button holes in the original drawing for instance, but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough?
TY! @@HistoryCalling
I think we can wll agree the lady at the time 11:20 would be today described as "a face for radio"..js
Great video as always
Ah now, looks aren't everything. She certainly captured George I's heart ❤ (also she may have been prettier in her younger days).
@HistoryCalling dang..check and mate at my "suppose" to be funny comment 🤣
Thanks for keeping me honest 🤣👍
Compelling and hard to disagree with you..but DARN! I want you to be wrong! Only because I want so dearly to peer upon the faces of our favorite subject matter! Thank you for video! Loved/ learned as always. ✌️ ❤️. Jenn
I know how you feel. I wish we could see George too. I'm less concerned about Thomas because we have the brass plate on his tomb which has a decent likeness.
My favorite history.
Thanks Ashlyn :-)
I feel like the portrait associated with George does look like he resembles some of the Anne Boleyn portraits.Similar eyes, nose, and mouth.
I see what you mean, especially compared to the portrait medal and Hever portrait of Anne. I even wonder if that's why selected it to put on Wikipedia as George. Sadly there's just no proper evidence to support the identification (though it's not impossible that it's him).
I just like to listen to your accent. Listen to how you pronounce words from what I'm used to. So I am binge watching your videos.
Thank you 😃 For some reason the way I say things like 'tower' seems to particularly tickle people, although I quite often change my pronunciation of words with 'ow' in them to sound a bit more American so I don't get snotty comments asking why I'm saying 'tar' etc.
Is there anything on the meaning of the decorations of the caps? The Not Thomas drawing is usuual. The decorations are not detailed, only outlines, but they look more interesting that th usual swags of pearls.
Good question, but I'm not sure. People would wear their best clothes to be drawn/painted so I would guess that they were just expensive ornaments.
At the very end of your video, the two portraits you present side by side depicts a mature man with dark brown eyes.
Anne Boleyn was described as having very dark eyes.
I know that guy on the left! That's my ancestor Dave, the gong scourer!
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12:12 & 12:40 No wagering on history! I don't want to see this fine channel get raided by the vice squad.
Haha, me neither :-)
Just started the video, but if they ARE the boleyns, this family has a strong facial hair game
Haha, well I won't spoil the ending, but yes, those are some good beards.
@@HistoryCalling nice to see the goatee is timeless!
What about the page number? Probably when he went to a home to paint he went for one and drew the next? Was it after the one of Ann perhaps? Or just the next Pic labeled Ormond?
I'm afraid Holbein himself didn't bind them into a book. That was done much later. The order in which they appear therefore doesn't necessarily have any meaning.
A few more kilograms, a few more days unshaven and a snazzier set of clothes, and the 'Ormond' picture is me! Most peculiar! I'd rather his cash, rather than that big Butler nose, had passed down the generations 😂. Cheers for the vid from over in Tyrone. Will share to the Butler Society site.
Haha, well he's not a bad looking guy. You could certainly do worse. Are you actually descended from him, or is the surname just a coincidence? Greetings in Tyrone as well. :-)
@@HistoryCalling we are. But descended from a grandson of James's who was born from the wrong side of the bedsheets.
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He has a certain resemblance to a well known portrait said to be of Anne Boleyn. I would guess it could be George.
Welcome and oh.hey y'all 😮
Hey Lori :-) Thanks for watching and commenting.
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Excellent emoji choice. Thank you 😄
The FAMILY of ANNE BOLEYN all have that strong John Lennon nose. Thanks for another good one
Haha, I'd never thought of it like that. Well perhaps he was descended from Mary Boleyn. Who knows? 😂
Many local people still speak of the Bullen’s , and Nan Bullen. They possibly gave themselves French airs to be more exotic and acceptable at court. The fact the parents of the young “Boleyn “ girls were sent to be educated at the French court gives credence to this notion?
Is it possible that when Cheeke wrote his list of who was who the pictures were in a different order than they were when the inscriptions were made?? They were described as being in a book and yet they are no longer in said book so it could be that they were mixed up by the time inscribed?
It's absolutely possible. We don't have that original list, so there's a relatively serious problem with the provenance of the identifications (though many of them have proven to be correct, so it's not a critical problem).