Mitersaw Set up - Flattening the Miter Table
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2019
- In this video you will see how to accurately flatten your Mitersaw Table. This is the first step in setting up your Mitersaw to get the best performance, no matter what saw you have. I take this Dewalt 718 12" compound Mitersaw which I used for framing and turn it into a precision finish saw, using a step by step method to get perfect results every time. Stay tuned for the next video in the series Adjusting the Miter Fences.
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I was like, "But what if your miter table isn't flat?", and then you bring out the other miter saw. Respect.
I am 71, just retired from a forty five year career as a custom cabinetmaker, trim carpenter, and, builder. I have worked on all sorts of projects from garages, decks, custom furniture, commercial and resedential. Projects that have ranged from several thousands to several million dollars. I have owned about six power miter saws, and, one of the ancient hand ones made by Stanley. I have had three De Walt including two of the sliding 10 and 12 inch saws. I have never had to do anything to them. The tolerances used in this video are for machine tools, doing ultra precision work. Every cut in every piece of base or widow trim has to be adjusted for conditions, You rarely use the detents without tweaking them a bit because corners are not very often perfectly square, same goes for windows. The wood itself can have things going on that make tweaking the saw a necessary thing. It takes lots of experience, but, after awhile you get the feel for this work. No good carpenter goes without his Stanley low angle block plane, and, a coping saw.
coping saw. fuck that
@@joshauamcdevitt7998 Why would you say that. Inside corners of a base with a profile should not be mitered. You always run one end in square, back cut a bit if necessary, then the other piece should be coped, this will result in a superior joint and finish, Miters tend to open up at times, of course for outside corners a miter works fine. A true finish carpenter that does not have a low angle block plane, and, a coping saw in his toolbox is just an amateur. A coping saw can work wonders at times when fitting trim to stone work for example, a powered saw can do most of that work, but, sometimes the gentle touch of a hand saw is needed.
Try using a mitre saw lol. That's what their for. I know I'm a better carpenter you. Sorry
@@joshmcdevitt137Well, Josh, I am 72, and, have been doing the work for most of my life. My grandfather, my uncle, my brother, and, a cousin were all carpenters. I did mainly fine cabinetwork and both commercial and resedential projects, as well as building commissioned furniture. I had my own design/;build company and, have worked on all kinds of projects both new consteuction and remodelling. I do not know how old you are, but, I am guessing I have forgotten more than you have learned. I started out when the only miter saws where hand powered, Stanley and Miller's Falls, we did not have battery powered screw drivers either, just the old fashioned "Yankee" push screw drivers. My tool box has a coping saw, and, it still gets used. I happen to have two 12 inch De Walt sliders, and, one 10inch fixed saws, plus two raidal arm saws, and, a whole cabinet shop full of high end production tools, If you do not know how to hand cope trim when you need to do that, well what can I say? You may be better, but, tell me how many years have you been doing it for a living?
Welllllll I didn't read that because it's insane that after all those years you still can't wrap your head around 'the miter saw'.
Awesome video! Thank you so much for sharing. Looking forward to the rest of the series
Great idea 💡 sanding it strait, so simple yet never crossed my mind. I’ll be watching your fence set up next!
Building Guru , I ended up using a belt sander with 80 grit., worked great too!
I can't believe i'm just now finding your channel. Very well done !
You've earned yourself a new subscriber.
The Dewalt DW717/718 is a fine made machine. If you look at the surfaces of the bed and fence and other parts critical parts of the saw, you can see these have been machined flat compared to the dullness of the casting. Before you take your sander to the machine you should investigate why it is out of flatness or why the fences are out of straightness:
1) Remove the fence. You will notice that underneath the fence and the underside/face of the fence is machined flat and square.
2) The rotating bed is machined flat and the wings are machined flat. Usually the problem lies in the bed been below the wing height on one or both sides. First, remove the yellow plastic kerf guide. Then, unbolt the rotating bed using the single bolt in the middle. Release the detent lock. Lift off the rotating table and head.
3) It is likely there will be some sawdust mixed in with the grease on the rotating base and the gliders. Clean this off. This could be the only reason your bed is out of alignment if your saw has had heavy use and is likely the cause for the rotating bed been higher than the wings. So, after doing this reassemble the rotating base and test with a straight edge. My bed was low on one side but OK on the other side, after cleaning the grease and sawdust the bed was low by the thickness of a sheet of paper all the way across I’d suspect that the manufacturing tolerances are designed to produce a slightly lower bed.
4) If still out of flatness, note which sides are too low, then remove the base again. You can unscrew and remove the steel gliders that the rotating base sits on. Use a piece of masking tape or two underneath to shim the gliders (you may need to shim one or all of them depending on how the bed sat). Mine needed shimming under all three gliders by the thickness of a piece of masking tape to lift the rotating bed to the same as the wings.
5) Reassemble the rotating base and recheck for flatness with a straight edge. You should put a little grease on the steel gliders and tighten the base, so it still runs smoothly but doesn’t wobble.
6) Reattach the fence. Note again that, the Dewalt has a recessed machined surface the fence locates against, so it is easy quite to get this aligned straight. But, check with a straight edge. Also, note that it is possible to make small adjustment as you crank the bolts down. If out of squareness to the table (which it shouldn’t be given the machining) you can again use the masking tape trick to shim.
7) Check if the head of the saw rocks excessively from side to side when extended out. If so, there is a small set screw just above the slider bushings. A small turn of this removes the play in the head. Don’t overtighten, but just enough for smooth sliding and rigid head.
8) I also see people making adjustment screws to make the tall fences align square to the table. As you install the fences take a moment to notice how much play there is in them. All you need do it put a square against the table and fence and hold the fence to the square when tightening without modifying your machine.
Only after all this would I either return the saw, or take to re-machining anything.
You should honestly make a vid on this
I second the request for you to make a video. You go into more in your comment than the obvious steps in this video.
Nice methode! Good video.
This is a great video! I need to make an exterior table top for my outdoor furniture. Unfortunately, the table had a glass top and it broke, so I'm going to make a wood top to sit on the existing metal frame. I've never squared up my Dewalt miter saw. I've just been using it as is from the factory. This will definitely help me make a better table top. I can't wait to try this out on my saw. I'll let you know how it goes.
Excellent!!
Wow, I really appreciate the detailed explanations and different approach to this miter saw series! I have spent the last week and a half extremely frustrated trying to figure out why my miter saw isn’t cutting right. I will be purchasing some of those metal spacer gauge things (lol idk what to call them) and try this approach. Thank you!
Feeler gauges
@@carenclemmons5002 When I was done using them to measure my table flatness, I used a few of them to shim my fence into square.
My 10 year old Craftsman sliding miter saw is so out of wack. I'm working on the fence now, sanding it straight. I think quality control had the day off when my saw shipped. The wings are lower than the table and the left wing is quite a bit lower. I'm determined to tune it up best as I can. Thanks for the video.
I made a table and fence for my DWS779.
I lost an inch in cutting depth, but now I have t-tracks to hold down small pieces. (Only having one arm/leg, I don't have ability to hold down,and use saw at same time.)
It's made my miter saw absolutely perfect.
Sadly, Dewalt doesn't make decent tools anymore (they really started to decline around 2018.) I have went through 3 table saws in last 3 days, and every one had ⅛" to ³/¹⁶" dips in the surface.
what sander were you using.great video
Thank you for this tutorial. This is the most accurate and methodical one that I have seen on this topic and certainly very much needed. Thank you!. Please could you post any links or just where I can find your engineers straight edge (red one) and your blades (1/1000, 1/2000 etc.). All the best!
Make your own. Save $50+ for 15 minutes of work. Stick 100 grit sandpaper to a jointer table or THICK piece of glass. Color all along the thin edge of the long side of an aluminum framing square (or any similar sturdy piece of aluminum) with magic marker. Gently run the edge of the square parallel along the sand paper until all of the marker is gone, indicating it has been evenly sanded across its entire length. Hold the aluminum in the center of it's length, not on both ends while sanding, or you risk putting more pressure on one end. Check it against your jointer table (without the sandpaper!) with a feeler gauge. How am I sure it works. I made 2 similar straight edges and when I butt them together I cannot get my thinnest feeler gauge (.0015") anywhere between them. That is MORE than good enough for woodworking.
Hi and thanks.... very informative.
Question: In your opinion, could both the Milwaukee Fuel M18 7-1/4 inch & M18 12 inch miter saws be tuned well enough to be a fine finishing units?
Thanks.
Good video, but since you're plugging these setup videos as a series, it would be great if you went back and added links to the other videos in the description of each.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Hey, thank you for your content. Keep up the great work!
I have a 12” DEWALT chop saw with a bow in the fence I’ve tried shimming it and a few other thing to straighten it out with no luck so it’s just a framing saw now.
My Metabo fence was like yours. It's easier to flatten that than the table he's doing. I stuck 2 strips of 80 grit adhesive sandpaper to my jointer table, ran my fence face back and forth for 15 minutes, and it was flat within .002.
I’m going through this on my M18 7-1/4 mitre saw right now and 2hrs of sanding the side bases with 100grit has only got me .005 with .004 to go. And it’s really easy to sand them unevenly on each base to. Crazy how out of calibration that little saw was though so it’ll be great to have it right tuned in.
Nice, saw quality is definitely and issue especially since price keeps going up!!😁👍🏻
@@thebuilditchannel8609 I would love to see you do a tune up series on the 8” M18 table saw. Heck, I’ll PayPal you $50 if you do lol. Between the table not being quite flat, the fence being out and the rack and pinion having slop, it would make a great video series imo!!
Kermit I will be doing a table saw video, hopefully soon and can cover those issues.
If there is a problem with the trunnion or slop in the motor then I would return it as that isn’t easily fixable.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Awesome!! I look forward to that one. Thankfully mine isn’t the trunnion or motor. It’s mostly just the fense not being 90° to the table (and non adjustable), and slop in the rack & pinion not keeping the fence/blade parallel.
Jobsite saws have the same problem of powder coating like the Kapex, so I guess they’d have to be re-powder coated if they get flattened?
I made a sanding beam out of a two foot 2x4 by sanding it perfectly flat on my jointer table (withing .002") Glued on a 1-1/2" strip of 80 grit and sanded across the entire table for my final levelling. Both side bases and table align within .002-.003" which is way more than enough even for fine woodworking. Scribble magic marker over all parts and you will quickly see the high spots when you sand. Keep going until you only have about 20% of the marker showing (80% of the surfaces are in alignment) and call it a day.
Thanks for the great content. A Lavalier microphone would likely cut down on the echos in the bench/waist-up shots and make these videos even better. In contrast, the voice-overs sound good.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Thanks back! You've emboldened me to re-examine my saws, rather than take them at face value. It's KINDA important : )
Don't have a random orbital sander. Is it okay to do it with my dewalt 5" orbital sander?
This test is only if you want to saw with a precision miter saw. (not for rough work).
Tips and Test:
Very important if you would like to saw with precision. (avoid torsion as much as possible)!
Always choose a Miter saw with a handle positioned in a vertical line above the saw blade.
Everything must be aligned, slide rails, handle, and saw blade,it is much better this way the blade will not tilt.
Because there is some torsion in the aluminum housing .
And choose an engine with softstart on it to prevent wear of the gear and worm shaft.
It is very important that everything is aligned.
Here are some examples to show how the handle must be positioned above the blade.
Bosch gcm 800 sj / Bosch gcm 8 sjl / Evolution rage 3 / FESTOOL KS 60 / Bosch GCM 8 SDE / FESTOOL KS 60 E KAPEX / Metabo KGSV 72 Xact / Bosch PCM 8 SD / Hitachi C10FSH.
(This also is the case with the Miter saw without the slide rails).
(If you want). You can test it yourself at home if there is torsion in the aluminum housing.
Step-1. First you make a saw cut from +-5 mm deep in to a flat piece of wood about +- 20 mm thick to this with the normal handle positioned on the right side of the Miter saw (the wood it will remain in place until the test is completed).
Step-2. Then repeat this by pushing the saw blade down with your hand (finger) on the aluminum protective cover were the saw blade is cased in. Just now only do this without the running engine.
Step-3. Now you can see if the saw blade will be positioned in or next to the saw cut. If the saw blade is (+- 0,2 / 0,5 mm) next to the saw cut then there is torsion in the aluminum housing (test is completed).
Step-4. therefor it is much better to choose a Miter saw with the handle positioned vertical in line above the saw blade.
Conclusion: how further away the handle is from the saw blade how more chance of torsion in the aluminum housing.(don't go for that).
Also with a cheap slide miter saw it is still better the handgriff in line a above the saw blade than on the right side. Maybe they will make it someday then we have a winner...
Great video. Could the rotating mitre table be shimmed up on the bearing rather than sanding the outer wings?
@@thebuilditchannel8609 ok that’s fair enough. I’ve just bought a 10” flexvolt and am going to have to flatten it so the thought just came to mind whilst watching your vid.
You could put links to where you could buy the components, such as feeler gauges, straight edge, square etc...
Umm...amazon, home depot, your local speciality tool store.
Can this be done with a cast iron table saw top? Great demonstration!
@@thebuilditchannel8609 very good videos , you definitely know your stuff!
👍
Great vid. Thank you. Could improve sound by wearing a mike but that’s a minor issue. Thanks again.
Exelente video. E comprado dos sierras DeWalt 780 y las dos las e tenido que regresar motivo descalivrada imposible tratar de arreglar el defecto. Quiero necesito una DeWalt 780 pero en perfecta calibración la requiero para Cortes muy precisos. Puede ud ayudarme ?. Saludos desde México
Thanks!! I unfortunately don’t speak Spanish.
The upper fences on my KS120 are leaning towards the back of the saw. Do you happen to know if I can adjust for this or what to sand down to get them straight?
Thanks for watching! I would make a Sub-fence and square that to the table. This will give you better control of your work piece and allow for any adjustments.
Can you provide information on the metal shims you’re using? Thanks
Building Guru Many thanks.
If you use this saw for framing ? Which one do you use for ypur finishing saw?
I like the Kapex or the cordless Makita 10”
Thanks for the very informative video. My bosch pcm 8s miter table is reasonably flat, but the support wings are beyond terrible. On the far sides of the wings its almost 0.022 inch (0,55mm) higher than the middle of the table. Any suggestions on how to remove that much material?
Thanks!
What a coincident that is EXACTLY how high my wings were on my Metabo from the center of the table. I started with a VERY AGGRESSIVE CHEAP vibrating palm sander with 60 grit, marking and checking as I worked. Finished the last .008" with 80 grit on my good orbital sander. Final sanded across entire table with 1-1/2" strip of 80 grit on a two foot 2x4 jointed flat within .002". Polished with 120 grit. Flat everywhere within .002-.003. That is MORE than good enough for woodwork. Took about 3 hrs.
@@FisherCatProductions Thats alot of work, respect. For me it turned out that my whole base was being bent by the screws i used, so i just untightend them a bit and that flattened it out more. Not as flat as yours now is ofcourse. It was a really cheap saw and has since then died and been replaced
@@philippe888 In hindsight, as I prepare to add an 8' workbench on either side of my saw, I'm acutely aware there is no way I'm going to keep it flat within my hard-fought parameters! Won the battle and lost the war LOL
@@FisherCatProductions haha that sucks. Still pretty flat propably though
How far you live? This can be a service! Beginner woodworker thinking my mitre is off and I’m afraid to make it worst!
Kidding about the how far but mine is deft off...and it’s brand new I guess you get what you pay for...
Building Guru it’s the typical my fear the manufacturer will void my warranty for something they should perfect themselves but I guess first step is go find myself a true square guide..any suggestion for a calibrated straight edge and square?
Man I’m so glad this tutorial exists but these manufactures should be humiliated to see this. Every machine making these things is capable of near utter perfection, and they’re just not calibrating or maintaining them.
They should be offering 50% money back for 3-4-5thou misalignment. These should be rejected units.
LOL
@M Ski And how do you know what tolerances miter saws are designed for? .001 in. is pretty easy to achieve on a flat plate. And where on God's Green Earth did you get that 10X figure? However, the tolerances of the miter saw are being inflated far out of realistic amounts. Don't worry about the saw, measure your cuts and if they are acceptable then don't worry about the saw. The whole video is a lot of words about nothing. If a miter saw table is off .005 in. across its width, say 8 in. then a cutoff of a two by four will be out of square by .005/8 or .0006 in.
Kermit, these saws are manufactured in communist China. There is no incentive for excellence in a socialist/communist society, so medocrity reigns.
@@yrralyou if you’re cutting 2x4’s, or your work is painted after it’s cut or installed, then the requirement for accuracy in what you do is so low, no saw ever made is out of alignment far enough that you should care.
@@pawpawstew Some of the old Dewalt 780’s made in Mexico and China. My old one was a Mexico batch and was actually worse then the Chinese ones. I just like how carpenters jump in these comments to pretend they’re schooling everyone about being losers thinking they need better accuracy or that it’s just their lack of skill. When every cut they make for a month could be 1/4” out and 99% of it would still pass inspection. A lot of trim carpenters aren’t much better either. Anyone that has painters coming in behind them.
Could you provide a link to feeler guage set please 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
@@thebuilditchannel8609 thanks a bunch! 🍻
My table is slightly lower than the wings? Any adjustment
Yes, sand down the wings the table is the reference point and the most important surface.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Thank you
What if the gap is significant enough sanding seems somewhat impractical?
A way to attach a zero clearance table or something across entire saw
If that’s the case, return the saw it’s defective! You can make a table/fence but it will limit the saws cutting capacity and would be easier to get another saw that that isn’t that far out of tolerance.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 thanks for the reply and feedback. I think that's my most feasible solution.
My Metabo base was .022" higher than the table! I took it off with 60 and 80 grit and flattened the base and table within .002-.003". Took about 3 hours and a lot of checking as I went.
@@FisherCatProductions thanks. I didn't return the saw. I'll probably get to sanding eventually.
@@badtolz2122 I had to fix mine. I do cabinetry, picture frames, and other fine woodworking. Having .022" at the table, and .011" along my fence was too much. Don't go nuts trying to get .001" like the video (INSANE!). Getting .003"-.005" is not noticeable in a fine cut. You can probably get away with .008". If you are just hacking off 2x4's for house framing, probably even more? Happy woodworking!
Who is the maker of that RO sander?
That’s Eka-Sand from Uneeda
Thank you!
My Makita XSL08 miter saw is up to .003 inches out of plane on about 20% of the table/base. I would have to sand down about 80% of the table by ~0.003in in order to zero out the table. Would you consider .003in out of plane for 20% of the table to be acceptable? Short video on my saw and following your calibration directions if you're interested: th-cam.com/video/9UGBgHNnvQI/w-d-xo.html . Thanks again!
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Thank you so much! You're awesome!!!
.005-.008" is fine for woodworking. You are not machining steam engines.
I've purchased Milwaukee 10" M18 miter saw 3 month ago and had very poor quality cuts, witch led me to this video.. My turn table is 3mm (!!!) lower than the side wings, and side wings are also not flat. I can't imagine sanding off 3mm of still. Contacted Milwaukee tech support, and they sent me a picture of the same model with the same issue, telling me that it's normal in miter saws. Purchased it 3.5 month ago from Home depot, so returning might be an issue now, so if you are looking for miter saws, my recommendation is stay away form Milwaukee, get a quality Dewalt instead.
You are talking 0.118"-- no way this is common! My Metabo was low .022" (fixed), which is a lot because I could feel my stock drop when cutting through it. 3mm is insane.
@@FisherCatProductions I got it replaced by MW and a new one came much better, but not perfect. I sanded off quite a bit to make it flat..
@@MrAndreybond Good on ya'. It took me about 3 hours to knock mine down. I made an 1-1/2" wide two foot long sanding beam and finish sanded across the table and side bases within .002-003" which is more that you need even for fine woodwork.
You should have tried changing your wear plate first it's about 20 bucks .
I’m guessing your talking about the throat plate, that has nothing to do with this test or video.
Anyone thinking about using a sander on their miter saw might want to think that over a bit. Your saw is very likely going to be in worse shape after the sanding than before. This is a misguided procedure.
Why is it misguided? I'll keep an open mind on the reply.
@@pablos.cargoe7101 First if the saw table is out of alignment it might be twisted, instead of one side lower than the other. Second, virtually no one can hand sand anything to within .001". But mainly if the table is out of alignment the reason should be found and fixed. Those tables are either stamped or molded and should all be the same. If there is a gap under the straight edge at one point is there a high point on that part of the table or is the other side high. Just seeing what is perceived as a low spot and sanding is like taking the pressure of all four tires on a car and finding each has a different pressure. Should you just let the air out of three? Air three up, or 2 up and 1 down. Or maybe 1 up and 2 down. Or finding a chair that doesn't sit right on the floor. Cur off three legs? Or fix the floor.
Even if one knew to sand that is a procedure that is not likely to succeed.
@@thebuilditchannel8609 Even if his methods and results are not correct? This was not high-quality reasoning. And you are assuming I just talk. You have no idea of my experience. So far as sanding to within .001 in I can assure you sanding is not the proper procedure. Scraping might work. Sanding likely would take .001 in off, but equally likely make a depression elsewhere at least that deep. I'm quite sure the man sanded out that high spot, but what about the rest of the table? To be crude "sanding ain't gonna cut it". Was the spot low because the table was twisted on the whole side was low or just a small high spot. How is sanding going to determine that? Scraping would show this. Maybe the table is not twisted but has several low or high spots.
@@yrralyou So..... instead of talking so much... be more useful to us all and take the time and energy to make a serious, professional video to showcase your methods.
Stop talking and show me else don't be so arrogant.
@@Mike-wh9dq Well I guess you are one of those folks who never learned to read and understand, but has to have a picture. One of those who has to be shown a picture. I'm not writing from arrogance, but from experience. A hand sander cannot be used to flatten a surface.
Why not just do what machinist do. Put on layout fluid or marker everywhere. Find level sanding beam. Sand marking tool all marks are gone. Level! You can do the whole saw at once without doing all the steps. It's like doing an engine block and heads. Way faster.
Exactly what I did to final-flatten mine after roughing it in with a palm sander. Scribbled magic marker on the table and base. Made a sanding beam from a 1-1/2 strip of sandpaper glued to 2 foot long 2x4. I flattened the side to less than .002" by sanding it on my jointer table. Sanded parallel to the table and at cross angles until 80% of the marker was gone. Flat within .002-.003". MORE than good enough for fine cabinet woodwork.
Your concerns about a flat table are appropriate. Your methods not so much. There is no way on God's Green Earth that you can use a sander to flatten anything to the degree you advocate While sanding down one area it is not possible to keep from digging a depression in another. It's just not possible to get something flat withing less than your indicated .005" with a hand sander. Proper scrapping with a steady hand and a perfectly flat piece of metal is the only way to do so. And I'll argue with the need to do so. If a 6" tall board is cut and the bed of the saw is out by .005 the error cannot be seen with a high-quality square. The main reason is that with a board longer than the bed the error is averaged over the length of the board. So the board will set on the high spots. And then the bevel angle can be set to absolute 0 error, regardless of the flatness. So on a board longer than about 1 foot any error in flatness can be adjusted out by adjusting the saw to cut square vertically. Even if the rotating part is not in the same plane as the non-moving parts any board that spans the rotating part will be cut absolutely square if the saw is squared with the non-moving parts as it should be. Your issue is misguided.
Tell me more about scraping a metal surface flat, is there a resource you could offer?
@@tylerarchuletta5021 Just google scraping a metal surface or something similar. Be aware that some of the techniques they describe are for VERY skilled workers. However, an amateur can get a very flat surface if a scraper longer than the surface to be scraped is used.
@@tylerarchuletta5021 The video just showed you his method works, but yyalyou insists it won't! You can lead a horse to water... Rough it in with a hand sander and finish it with adhesive sandpaper on a 3/4" thick piece of MDF or other flat plate if you want it closer. You can get within .001 if you have the patience. You only need .005-.008" for woodwork and can achieve that with your eyes shut. I've milled aluminum engine heads to spec with sandpaper stuck onto thick plate glass.
Its not a machinist tool
This is just ott, sad to dupe people into believing they need to do this fir wood just for views.
It's wood forvgodsakes,
My Metabo was low in the center by .022" and I could feel the wood drop when I cut through. It didn't take long to correct it. I don't like more than .008 for fine woodworking.