Hating Hades - Ep. 39 of Intentionally Blank
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มี.ค. 2022
- Dan dislikes Hades, the award-winning game, as much as Brandon loves it. Their conversation turns to other types of games and mechanics and what makes them enjoyable for different types of players. Tangents should be expected.
You can join the discussion and vote for your favorite podcast title at r/sanderson: / sanderson
Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson - บันเทิง
All this talk about games made me want Brandon and Dan do a playthrough of "It takes two" together on youtube.
Someone make this happen please.
Dan really formed a strong hatred for this game after seemingly spending 15 minutes with it. He should be a game journalist.
He should go work for G4
Brandon and Dan actually were games journalists in the 90's
That's not fair. He was just giving his subjective opinion, while games journalists implicitly review games under the guise of objectivism.
@Kim Huliganga I think it was a joke, not an actual dig at Dan. Maybe a dig at game journalists but let's be real there are more bad ones than good ones.
@@CufflinksAndChuckles He was being lighthearted, but I don't think a journalist could get much harsher than saying "there is no story", "all the characters are annoying", "how could anyone like this". (Again, I realize they are being lighthearted so don't read me as super serious or offended. I just think the comparison was apt.)
Hades not having a story may be the hottest gaming take of the decade
It’s such a ridiculous take lol. Like reading a book’s publishing credits and saying it has no story. Hades story begins as soon as somebody presses start; it’s not something one needs to “get to”
I had a friend that said that Dark Souls both didn't have a story and wasn't an RPG.
Still thinking about that one 5 years later
I mean its just a false take. If you talk with NPCs you get a story, if you dont you dont.
Can't wait to see Dan's reaction to Brandon's Kickstarter announcement on here
This man writes 4 books in a year and still has time for video games. He lives life like I wish I could lol
Yea he had 4 minutes to look at it than come out with the shittiest take
Dan's rant about "I don't want the story to emerge because I've engaged with the world," is really interesting knowing he's a prolific DM/GM. In my experience that's how a lot of role-playing moments happen. The players engage with some detail of the DM's world, or ask the DM interesting questions and fun story and plot arise from that collaboration. The video game is just your Dungeon Master, Dan.
well to be fair he said he doesn't want to be forced into it. if the world is interesting enough hell interact with it. i agree with him there, i just also happen to love Hades lol
I find Dan's dislike of boss fights interesting, cause it's the exact opposite of my preference. I mostly dislike when boss fights "play it straight", where they're just an enemy with bigger numbers; I much prefer them each having their own gimmick, spectacle, unique attacks, and patterns. Zelda's always a great example of this, but it's not the only way to do it.
I think there are a variety of lines and methods at play here too: Zelda bosses aren't very punitive: the attacks are slow and you can usually improvise a response, whereas soulslike bosses attacks it seems when the attacks is starting it's already too late.
.In Zelda, the puzzle is more in how to effectively attack and it's usually something that directly follows from mechanics developed throughout the level, usually using items introduced in that dungeon, (except in breath of the wild where there are no dungeon specific items of powers - and maybe in the early NES titles) .
In the case of Dark souls, Since it's an action RPG, the game doesn't prescribe the method of attack, the player's build does, so that's why the puzzle relates more to how to effectively defend, and then the player can attack however they want. While the bosses follow thematically and aesthetically from the level, It didn't seem to me that the attack patterns are something you learned through the mobs leading up to the Boss.
And yes, a number of RPGs can't prescribe an attack method already, but also don't have as much of a focus on specific patterns on enemies, which result on stat based fights rather than more "tactile" puzzles.
y'know I strongly disagree with Dan here, but "Hades does not have a story" is such a scorching take that I have to admire it. it's just factually not true, and I respect it when people commit to the bit
Is it a bit? Did he not play the game at all? “You have to start at act 1 every time you die” No?!??? “I don’t want to read in a video game” ITS VOICE ACTED
yeah idk, dan gives me strong boomer vibes in this one, ngl
@@Evergreen2219 He played and didn't like it. Of course the games has a story... but isn't told in a way that he's interested in it. Saying doesn't have a story is just a troll hyperbole to shake the feathers of weebs...
@@Vimalth I don't know that that's a bad thing; I like a good curmudgeon whose opinions on something harmless are extremely different from my own, tbh. doubly so when that thing is universally popular. respect to him on playing into the heel - it's provocative, it gets the people going
He’s got pretty bad takes from what I’ve seen. I haven’t listened to the pod much so I might be wrong but I remember him saying that the last episode of wheel of time was the best and… well… uh…
Dan be spouting fighting words.
Dan - "There is no story!"
Someone didn't get very far xD Because it does in fact have one.
But not every game is gonna resonate with all players.
The funniest part about Doll in Bloodborne is that you can become so sane that she stops being alive and turns back into a simple facsimile of paint and wood and you cannot start levelling up again until you go a little crazy.
Bloodborne, not as much but similarly to Hades, is so, soooo thoroughly improved by tying it's gameplay and mechanics directly back into it's story.
It is so wonderful in that way and I truly wish more videogames would take advantage of their very unique medium to do these sorts of things that only they can do!
I agree with Sando, I loved it from the first moment. And play it over most games. It is the reason I have only finished one game this year.
Hades is such a potent action game. Fell in love with it immediately.
Hades is fantastic, stand with Brandon
I think the single most amazing aspect of Hades that I loved was the flow of the game. You go in to the dungeon, you get further than you got last time, you die, you come back, and you are gifted with a bunch of story and the opportunity to spend currencies to get even stronger. It's the one game I have played where "losing" is the most enjoyable part because they reward you so heavily. The disappointment from a loss only lasts a very short period of time because look, you get new cool stuff and can date Dusa and stuff like that! It meant that I never got the downtime I get in other games, especially other roguelites. Like Brandon said, the losses just flow so well into the next attempt, there is no "Darn, I need to start over, let me prep myself mentally" it's "Let's jump back in, get a different hammer, maybe try a different god focus, do better!"
I've played the hell out of Hades these last couple months, and I heavily stand by Brandon here. It's very satisfying to watch my favorite author defend my favorite game.
23:20 Highly reccomend Hollow Knight if you havent played it already! Its a metroidvania with some soulslike qualities in terms of lore + dying. I think one of the best parts is how it very much makes you work to figure out where you have to go (and how to get there) with very little guidance. Of course gorgeous art, great soundtrack and plenty of fun boss fights as well.
Definitely not for Dan though, if he doesn't like boss fights or learning enemy mechanics
Since Brandon liked the "mixing stuff together to find broken combos" aspect, he'd love Transistor.
Definitely. I’ll never forget the time I unlocked the kill ability and I thought it was a glitch at first. Then it became my favorite move when I got lucky enough to use it
Did Dan actually play Hades?!? I swear he’s talking about something different.
This was my reaction to everyone who claims to have liked it. Did we play the same game?
@@danwells9305 You just dont know anything about what a good game should be
Dare to say you played more than 30 minutes b4 giving this interview
Played a phone roguelike xDDDD
Dont ever go out and talk about videogames again, your taste is trash
I mean where he talks about boss fights it just makes it clear that this type of game is not for him, just the wrong genre.
Don't know how many hours or runs I spent before dialogue starting running out. It was amazing how much content there was
Hope next week we’re going to have a “loving elden ring” intentionally blank hahaha
"Two Middle-Aged Guys Talking About Elden Ring"
Can’t wait to see Brandon’s mind get blown by Elden Ring
Brandon, your Kickstarter blew us all away. You and dragonsteel were trending everywhere. As time passes each day you prove why you are this generations Tolkien. You've mastered the art of transparency, and in all honestly I think you've created quite the stir in an industry that's been established for decades.
I enjoy Branderson novels so much more than tolkien it's not even funny. Tolkien is alright to me, Brandon is a transcendant God-King.
@@aidengray3998 Completely agree, I haven't read a single sanderson novel that feels like a *cough cough* slog. Gotta give credit where credit is due though these world's wouldn't exist in this capacity without Tolkien and Jordan who came before him.
Edit: all hail the God king Bran San'derson.
Nope… just… Nope. Nice guy and all, but his works aren’t in the same ball park as Tolkien. You can still enjoy it though.
@@christianbjorck816 Tolkiens works are foundational to modern fantasy, but I don't enjoy reading them nearly so much as I do reading a Cosmere book. Hell, thinking about the cosmere after I read them is more fun than than any other book series has ever been.
@@aidengray3998 To each their own I guess. I have a weird ”relationship” with Sanderson - the guy seems nice and I respect the hell out of him for doing so much for his fans (and competing with traditional publishing) but I absolutely hate his books and writing style haha.
First video game to win a Hugo award - "Hades does not have a story" ;-)
🤣🤣🤣
Bloodborne spoilers end at 28:40 for anyone that cares
Thanks
Oh man Wildermyth is such a unique game. Glad someone else has played it haha.
I think it makes perfect sense for someone who is so enraptured with storytelling in every other medium to be more focused on gameplay in video games. The blending of gameplay and storytelling is the quintessential element of what makes video games a unique medium in my opinion.
I forgot that these are prerecorded! I was hoping to see Dan react to the Kickstarter news!😁
Great as always.
Wildermyth! Hell Yes - I'm so glad to hear people talking about this game!
I'm disappointed that I had to scroll down so far to find a comment about it. Wildermyth is a really good game!
I love that this conversation is being had. I love Hades as much as Brandon, but I felt all the hate Dan mentioned when I first started it. Hades grew on me to the point that it is now one of my favorites. That rehash of the Cerberus fight twist had me smiling. We would never hurt the goodest boy, Dan!
Hades has the BEST story of any Roguelite RPG I've ever player or seen. It also has the best Tutorial. Some people just don't like to be challenged in games.
Got Hades for Xmas from my brother. Then played it for 8-10 hours a day for the next 3 weeks with every non working hour I had. The story, the fabulous voice acting, the character development, it was amazing. The HOURS of recorded dialog and interesting story beats kept me playing well past where I would have been bored of similar rogue like games.
It was the first game that completely engrossed my wife (who watched just for the story) since she watched me play Witcher 3.
I've never heard someone be so wrong before
I love it when they talk video games and movies but man does Dan have some crazy hot takes
I have been waiting to hear somone mention FTL for years. Thank you, Brandon
I'm guessing Dan wants the same thing I do from a game: a "choose your own adventure" movie. And often the puzzle-solving mechanics just get in the way of enjoying that.
Brandon Sanderson is my go to for books, movies, and now video game reviews! I like the same games for the same reasons! What a gem!
I haven't played much roguelikes before, but I loved it once I did a few runs of Hades, and started seeing the possibilities of the builds. Got me through a 14 day hotel quarantine during the pandemic when I had to travel back home!
Yeah, it's a roguelite, so you get progressively more powerful even though you aren't making it to the end, so there's actually a sense of progress. Much more playable.
I think this is the fastest this podcast has ever gotten onto and stuck to a topic.
Also, I think Dan and I would always disagree on different types of media, since I love Hades and Baby Driver, while vehemently doesn't
"That was the one thing that was making me feel like I really need to finish this game so I can kill the dog"
Gotta love Dan
Ok so Elden Ring is my first FromSoftware game, and I'm struggling to latch onto the story since it feels like it's taking such a backseat, although I do understand the machanics behind its story telling -- i do enjoy watching youtubers piecing the story together -- but it is just too dilluted in the game for the available play time I have available for me to be able to piece it together myself. Same thing goes with Binding of Isaac (although for a game of that genre, story does not feel as important).
THAT SAID, Hades, to me, is game storytelling perfection. I LOVE how story, along with it's roguelite elements, fails you forward. And once you beat the game once, you are SO hooked to know the rest of the story that it becomes a drug.
Yeah I'm the same. From Software games are always about environmental storytelling; the lore is given to you in the form of codex entries and by observing your surroundings, rather than engaging in dialogue with NPCs and such. Soulsborne games aren't really my vibe because of that; I prefer the storytelling to be a bit more direct, and I get engrossed through bonding with the characters of the world, not just the world itself. Hades is so great precisely because of its memorable and colourful cast.
Elden Ring is next on my playlist...currently playing the Horizon sequel (topnotch storytelling!). But one thing after having played Bloodborne, the Dark Souls trilogy and Demon's Souls, is I went from HATING these, but something made me persist, and then halfway through, I ended up loving it and couldn't get enough. But that steep curve and terse storytelling, was off-putting. But with all FromSoft: Persistence pays off.
You're wrong Dan. Wrong.
Also I love how much Brandon loves Miyazaki games. They're just the best.
WILDERMYTH!!
Dan has great taste. Absolutely fantastic game.
If Dan likes narrative-focused games, he should try Disco Elysium. Playing that right now and really enjoying it.
Me too! It’s brilliant!
Not if he doest like to read in video games
@@Elfhelm you can save scum every skill roll.
@@tiagghho isn't there a fully voice acted version out already?
@@ruben307 it was already out when I played, I never knew that there was a version without the voices hehe
And the voice acting is great, but the game is complex, the lines are complex and metaphorical, I would find myself reading all the time
So Dan hates all Boss fights😂😂
Hades is amazing, perfect on Switch too. Also, is Sanderson wearing a Breath of The Wild shirt!?
Also, Im listening to stormlight archive while grinding Lost Ark. anyone else doing that?
Indeed he is! The Eye of the Sheikah, rather than the Eye of the Almighty!
It's not that Dan's wrong, it's that he's simultaneously so smug about it. Woof, this one was difficult to finish.
Hating Hades sound like a new metalcore band with only one EP
Based on his review, I'm not entirely sure Dan played Hades.
It sounds like he played it for two or three runs and died early in all of them and then gave up. I'd be surprised if he tried it for more than an hour.
Sounds like Dan is a fan of narrative-based tactics RPGs! They don't really have boss fights because they're about groups of characters fighting against groups of enemies and moving them around on a map. I haven't gotten around to Wildermyth yet.
Wildermyth is really good! Besides what he mentioned, the characters age, become scarred and changed in the adventure, have children... And you grow their legacies in multiple campaigns!
It is the best game of 2021, hands down.
I am only about 6 hours into Wildermyth but I am loving it so far. I'm excited to try all the various campaigns they have.
@@scoobydew2232 I can't even pick a favorite.
You heard it here first: Dan considers his opponents in LoL and Overwatch as "mobs".
Dan has some wild opinions on video games I’ve learned.
And I’m only 1/3 into the video.
I fell asleep listening to this the first time, so I’m listening to this again cuz I enjoy these guys that much
Loved this stream! So many great games!
A new game, "Sifu", takes the whole "you level up, not your character" to the extreme..
Wildermyth is brilliant, so surprised to hear Dan played it and glad he liked it. He didn't mention that the music is amazing and there is also a coop option to play multiplayer and finally that the magic system is sooo Sanderson-esc I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Cosmere is one of the inspiration of the game.
Thank you for the recommendation of Wildermyth--I will need to look at it. I've been looking for my next game for a while. I quit Warcraft and all the games I've liked in the past are really old--Master of Magic, the Might and Magic series. (Yes, I have been a Nethack goddess--how's that for rogue-likes?)
Really excited to see the first podcast filmed after Brandons secret books reveal. Love to get Dan's take on it
Just started hades, and it’s amazing!
Conversations like this between them are hilarious because they're the same age and Brandon sounds like hes trying to explain what the kids are into to his dad.
Dan's actually like two years younger so there's an extra layer of irony.
I'd love to hear Sanderson's review of Inscryption
I've never even played Hades and I love it. I watched a playthrough on TH-cam and loved the writing and character development. I have Orpheus and Eurydice's song memorized.
I usually find rougelikes too challenging but Hades doesn’t have quite as steep of a learning curve and it’s amazing seeing how they deliver the story in this format. I like how the story still progresses when you fail and doesn’t completely reset you. I still feel like I’m making progress even when I don’t make it out of the underworld every run.
Hades demands love just based off the fact it is dripping with style.
Very surprised to see Dan's reaction, as for me, Hades was really inspiring writing wise. It made me start a whole new book!
I absolutely love Hades! It's the best roguelike I'd ever played. The idea that there is no story in it is preposterous. The story is wonderful. The soundtrack is amazing. The voice acting (especially Meg!!) is top-notch. Everything about the game is a masterpiece.
I will second the sound track. Not my type of game, but my oldest loves it and played all the time. So I would just listen to the music and it was Excellent!
It's so great hearing these two gentlemen who are old enough to remember "typing classes" talk about the gaming!
So... People can argue about things without hating each other and throwing poop? Fascinating!
I was so concerned when I saw the video title. "Oh no! Brandon hates Hades? But it was so good!"
Love Hades and Wildermyth! Gonna play both right now!
I also highly recommend Wildermyth. For those who don't know you have 2 general ways of playing the game. Through story campaigns made by the developers or through just adventuring through the world and it being entirely procedurally generated.
Depending on how well you do, you can pick one of your characters to "ascend" and use them in other campaigns.
Been playing Hades for a few weeks and it’s one of the most engrossing games ever lmao
Wildermyth.... Was freaking awesome... I loved it
I wonder if Dan has seen or played Control? Based on this episode it sounds like the aesthetic and world could be right up his alley
It could but the combat might not click as well, considering his opinions on bosses
My one complaint about Hades I desperately wish it had more content like more levels bosses and weapons but already by itself it’s a really great fun game
I feel like a game that both could enjoy would be Outer Wilds. Brandon would enjoy min-maxing his effieciency while exploring and piecing together the narrative while Dan would probably simply enjoy the world and the experience of exploring it more and more.
39:00 The original Prince of Persia (by Jordan Mechner, published by Borderbound circa 1989) is also one of my favorite games from that era of PC gaming. It was ground breaking given its use of rotoscoping to achieve extremely fluid animations (Jordan filmed his brother performing various actions at 12 frames per second and then painstakingly traced the footage pixel by pixel for each frame of animation"). You should check out his development journals from the 80's for the game, should be able to find that on his site.
SInce Dan likes games with good stories - I wonder what he thought of "To The Moon" (and its sequels if he's played them). It has, for me, one of the best stories told in games. It's not challenging (sorry Brandon) but it tells a story that I felt couldn't be told in a different medium and I loved it. Great podcast!
I'm really bad at Hades, and all games like it, but it's still one of my all time favorites!
Hades has over 21,000 lines of dialogue, each part of various character stories or the overall story.
No story?
Only if you played like 5 runs. It takes a LONG time to get even a quarter of that.
Dan just isn't big on rogue-likes. And that's ok.
Watched more of this now.
If you don't like bosses with patterns, that is a pretty big chuck of games. Add onto that environmental/indirect storytelling and Dan has like 3.234545% of games left to play.
And that is still ok. :)
Does anybody know if Brandon has ever played hyper light drifter its my favorite game and was curious about his opinion.
@dan I never played it so I’ll arbitrarily have your back
You and me against the world
*Ron Swanson voice* Bring it on…
Wildermyth is one of the best games I've ever played. It's even better coop with friends if possible. Play it like a mini-dnd campaign and I love it. It is wonderful.
19:50 I think Brandon just got an idea for the next surprise xD
Re: Boss fights. I can relate... I find boss fights kind of tedious most of the time, Zelda games aside.
I’m rounding out the first “Mistborn” trilogy, and it reminds me of a little game called “Ender Lilies”. The game is post apocalyptic with characters you pick up as you play and beat them and they can be really dark.
When I read the description of the Inquisitors in “Mistborn” certain characters from Ender Lilies come right to mind. Tall, dark menacing figures with axes that will move slow at first then disappear and reappear behind you with a quick killer attack.
I think the two of you need to try Disco Elysium. It’s really good.
Dan’s preference in games is the exact opposite of mine, which is fine but it’s crazy to see. I love games where you just throw yourself at a boss over and over again until you win, and when you finally do it feels like you’re in an intricate dance with the boss.
I would love to see a full discussion about Elden Ring
Indie games are like indie films: produced and published independently of the largest publishers. There is a general acceptance that there is a budgetary difference, though that is not, technically, a defining factor.
Dan's taste is incomprehensible but that's how I feel about riddles I guess
Supergiant is such a good developer. Would be super interested to see how Dan would feel about Pyre. Very story heavy with interesting gameplay.
Brandon flexing on his build with the bow.
I really enjoy Hades. I am really really bad at it. I'm 80+ runs in and still haven't escaped once. I also don't want to go god mode until I do it at least once.
Great to see you haven't given up yet! Brandon gave some really good advice here: focusing on only one or two abilities and maxing them out. Knowing what you want to prioritize will help out a lot, but that comes with time and experience.
I want a video of the two of them discussing board games
It’s really hard to take any opinion that comes after “Hades has no story” seriously 😅. Just an incredibly weird thing to say.
@15:13 "DIGDOGGER HATES CERTAIN KIND OF SOUND."
I relate to what Dan said about playing games to explore and not so much for a challenge. I usually just call this being a casual gamer. I don't consider games fun when I have to focus super hard, constantly be ready to react quickly and perfectly, plan nuanced strategies, and seriously build competitive skill. That ain't a pastime to me! That's stress!
I have never been more conflicted on my life. The shitting on Hades had me nearly go mad. Then Dan mentions the gem that is wildermyth
Hades didn't do it for me either, but I'm not a fan of most rogue-likes so I get it. The only exception is risk of rain 1 and 2, which for some reason are absolute bangers to me.
I play games for story, to relax, to explore all nooks and crannies to find loot, never for bosses or challenge.
Listening to this episode while in the distortion world in pokemon platinum. So I am literally playing the one weird level right now.