It's worth mentioning that most healing spells have been reclassified as Abjurations. So an Abjuration Wizard could take Magic Initiate Cleric/Druid (or multiclass) and get an Int based Healing Word that also recharges their Arcane Ward.
@@BIGGGO4 though note it's "with a spell slot" (presumably to cut off the Alarm ritual/Warlock Invocation Mage Armor cheese), so it'll work for later casts, but not the free 1/day
Also, it was not mentioned, but I think you can also burn a spell slot to gain double the hit points in ward protection back. I think this helps it stay useful and relevant for longer. Closer to A imo.
@lucabancone no, but if I was high level I might burn a couple of lower level slots, and since you now apply resistance before taking away from a ward, even relatively low amounts of ward could help with chip damage, or prevent you from dying if your already low, but your party healer hasn't had a chance to patch you up. I am certainly not saying it's always the best move, but it adds options, which is rarely bad.
illusory reality can't deal damage or give conditions, but wanna know what it can do? be worn. Dealing with a pesky archmage? cast major image to make an illusion of ring-mail armor which tracks their movement as if it was being worn, then make it real as a bonus action! congrats! the archmage can no longer cast spells because they're wearing armor they're not proficient with and they will not be able to take it off in the next minute that this will last!
@@EspressoDepresso839 under the right conditions you could do this to the entire enemy team. Naw, I'm just a hungry half dragon cooking up dinner in my oven.
Exactly my train of thought for AOE spells. Like how Prayer of Healing gives 2d8 to 5 creatures. In a 5 person party that’s 10d8 Healing with 1 2nd level slot. An average of 45 HP.
yeah, thats where they always miss on why Evokers are S tier I've wiped out parties of enemies with Fireball: 22Hp x 5 enemies= 110 dmg. and that can be with friends in the blast without getting hurt.
For 2024, I would switch your choices for Diviner and Evoker. By your definitions, a Diviner is B because it is still decent, but in certain situations it can be S tier (the situations being when the dice gods give you the roll for that day you wanted/needed, and/or you have the time to wait for the rolls to be the numbers you want before you enact your plan). Meanwhile, the Evoker cranks what it can do to 11. An attack cantrip can always do something. Pockets of protection for area effects. Max damage evocation spells. Etc. I mean, the evoker's hold monster is still just as effective as the Diviner who rolled a 10 and an eleven that day, but you also can choose to have your highest damage evocation spell for Max damage as well (you mention fireball, but there are other spells that can do more damage or can target a different save, rather than just upcasting fireball). Just because Monte wouldn't cast evocation spells 80% or more of time doesn't mean the abilities themselves aren't great. After all, maybe the ancients paladin or world tree barbarian already have battlefield control handled... Otherwise, great video. Thanks for making.
The Diviner rides on the no questions aksed you failed you safe feature that Portent often gives you. You roll low the enemy you target will fail their save versus Banishment. You Roll high well your martial Ally will hit when it matters. Basically they get a good chance to get a feature Sorcerers have to burn a lot of points for but better every day. And if they don't get it they can give Allies two guranteed Hits ... Features like that with no defence, no safe against it are very powerfull when you need them. So I understand their reasons. Level 6 I agree they get exited about a feature that in actual play does not work out nearly as well as they theorycraft. Since as they admitted in the beginning it can get hard to find good Diviniation Spells for every Level. On the other han you will always find a usefull option in the Level 10 Features.
@BobHerzog1962 Banishment is a fantastic spell, to the point it really could use nerfing. Monsters tend to have Charisma be their dump stat only slightly more often than players. You can't base an entire playstyle on one spell, though. Well, you *can* (see eldritch blast), but it can get pretty boring. What about between levels 3 and 7, though? No banishment yet. You may find something to do with the 8 and 13 you rolled for the adventuring day, but not necessarily. To derail the topic a bit, the more I thought about Banishment, the more I despise the spell. It turns a player into mostly a one-note trick pony; upcast banish to remove important pieces of the enemy force, then blast the remainder while your concentration is taken. Makes a pure smite paladin seem versatile.
IMO it's been such conventional wisdom in 5E that Wizard's are not damage dealers that it's hard for many people to accept that Evoker's actually are even when its staring them right in the face. IMO Evoker's are at a minimum A Tier since their abilities are ALWAYS useful, and situationally S-Tier - that situation being clumps of monsters - and unlike other situations - grouped monsters comes up ALOT. A 5th Level Evoker hitting 10 monsters with a Fireball for 24 damage each is 240 damage at 5th level. A 14th level Evoker hitting 20 mobs with an over channeled cone of cold (64+5=69*20 ) is 1380 damage. NO OTHER class can do this type of AOE damages since the PCs will almost always be in the way of the blast, only an Evoker can do this because of how sculpt spell and their other Evoker subclass abilities synergize with each other. IOW, if your DM likes tossing a lot of mobs at you at once, Evoker is S-Tier and in almost all campaigns unless low combat/high role play will be A-Tier. IMO you could make an argument that Evokers are unbalanced because they get to do massive damage AND do not give up the versatility of the Wizard class.
Monty is right that damage isn't spellcasters greatest strength, but nothing stops you from grabbing control and utility spells. But when you blast... you BLAST
I'm with Kelly. Evoker is definitely A, because the Evoker FEELS and PLAYS like an Evoker. In comparison, I don't agree that Diviner is an A, but rather a B because of the very reason's stated in the video. I think Monty's bias towards the Diviner got the better of him in this case. A wizard can still act like an arcane Swiss army knife no matter which subclass you choose. However, because combat can often be the most exciting part of a game, Evoker deserves a rank higher than Diviner. Once again, an Evoker feels and plays like an Evoker wizard at all levels, while a diviner lacks the same feeling with it's class features beyond 3rd level. The idea of playing a Diviner just for Portent does not excite me. On the other hand the Evoker has class features I look forward to gaining beyond 3rd level, so excited in fact it makes me think twice about multi-classing.
I totally agree, personally I think on a bad die rolling day on the diviner feels like a trap and is a straightup D. Honestly I think the subclass is straight up bad design.
The thing is even though Evoker is designed for combat doing damage isnt the most impactful thing you can do with magic. CC, AoE, and Buffs and debuffs are gonna do a lot more for your party than just doing damage. So you might as well bring something that isnt just damage like Arcane Ward, illusions, or Portent to diversify your options.
@@okstusdefinitely an imbalanced design, though I hesitate to say bad. The main issue with Diviner is that Portent is so freaking good that nothing else they get can even be memorable
@@benross9174you’re 100% right, but I think the Dudes are trapped by their own ranking system here. Diviner isn’t good enough to be S but Monty is sure that it is better than Evoker. But Evoker is too good to be a B. I feel like they’re confusing high power for A rank. I would personally call Evoker A rank because it will not fail to do its job in nearly every campaign. Is it the perfect choice depending on party composition? Maybe not. But you WILL have fun blasting everything. Optimized and fun are not mutually inclusive
Evoker is A at least. Not sure what the Dudes have been smoking. Overthinking it. You want an Evoker on your team. It's not like an Evoker can't cast Slow or Sleet Storm
@@apjapki If you mean cage in the sense that it has bars so you can see out of it, sure. But you have to be able to see the point you are misty stepping too, so if you're in a room without any discernable way in or out, and now point of view outside it (which can be done by magical means or some sort of trap), then misty step is completely useless. OR if you get blinded.
@@deathtaco4095 Yeah, but to their own admission, there are multiple C tier features for Diviner. While Evoker has all their features being more useful, aside from portent dice. Personally, I'm fine with Diviner being A tier. But it's shocking that Evoker somehow isn't.
Evoker abilities are only useful in combat. My group has only been in one combat encounter in the last 4 sessions. If you play DnD as a TTWG, evoker might be better than diviner. If you play a more balanced DnD game, diviner is most liky better. If combat is a fail state in your game, diviner is SO much better.
Mind Spike is a 2nd level Divination spell. The Diviner can cast it, do some damage, and get back the spell slot used on Mage Armor. He can upcast it for decent damage and get back a spell slot. It's not the best damage ever, but it is psychic.
I came here to say this and saw someone already did. Upcasting Mindspike to regain spell slots can be used all the time, so you have more spell slots than other subclasses. Plus you couple Portent with Lucky feat and Halfling Luck Points, and you're just manipulating dice everywhere, all while throwing out twice the number of spells a day when you include arcane recovery.
The problem with mind spike is that it just doesn't do enough damage for what it is, and the fact that it requires concentration means it has limited applications in combat, since you don't want to break your concentration on a spell that is effecting the battlefield or buffing an ally. MS does 3d8 to a single target, whereas shatter would do the same to every target in an area without using concentration, and scorching ray could do 6d6 to a single target if they all hit (or more if you crit), again with no concentration requirements. Even looking at other 2nd level concentration spells, I would personally much rather concentrate on web, phantasmal force, Maximillian's earthen grasp, cloud of daggers, levitate, enlarge/reduce, etc. Plus, if you're upcasting MS to get back a lower level slot, why didn't you just upcast the spell you were going to use that slot on? Or just cast a divination spell that buffs someone in some way or gives you an out-of-combat utility, like borrowed knowledge, see invisibility, or arcane eye? Basically, I think trying to make that feature a combat feature is like trying to cut a steak with a spoon: you COULD do that, or you could use the knife right next to it and save the spoon for dessert.
Yeah, but the spell isn't that good. The damage isn't enough for the spell slot, the debuff rarely comes up, it's a single target spell that requires concentration, and psychic damage isn't that much better than, say, thunder. Just take a better damage spell (I'd pick Shatter or Scorching Ray).
Mind spike is terrible. You waste a 2nd level spell slot to do slightly more damage than a cantrip would, it requires concentration, so whatever you were concentrating on is going down the toilet and all for a 1st level slot? Upcasting mind spike is an even worse choice. 3rd level: just cast fireball, fear, hypnotic pattern, etc. instead for a much, much, much bigger impact on the battlefield. 4th level: banishment, black tentacles, psychic lance, polymorph...again, much bigger impact. 5th level and up...I don't even want to begin. Nope, no mind spike for me, thank you. The best use of expert divination is out of combat, when you use your spell slots for scouting with arcane eye, clairvoyance, scrying, etc. or being a skill monkey with borrowed knowledge and still be able to cast leveled spells after all that crap.
It's such bad damage it's not worth doing. If you are fighting an elusive enemy, mind spike might be worth the slot, but otherwise it is just a waste of a spell slot. The damage is barely over cantrips damage.
I think the new Evoker is similar to your Malfeasance subclass. The Evoker gets all its damage spells for free and can pick 2 utility/niche spells every level. It's a swiss army knife without sacrificing combat damage.
I absolutely agree. The abdurer and diviner both offer stuff for a specific kind of wizard, but I'm not sure they make the wizard that much better at that specific niche than the evoker makes a blaster stronger. The fact that other wizards will still throw an evocation spell or damage, the Delta between another wizard's damage and an evoker's damage is a lot bigger than an evokers control or support, and any other wizard's control or support (besides portent)
I will say and 2024 dwarf with the background feat of tough as an abjuration wizard would give a nice bit of comfort compared with most when a mob starts running towards you.
DM dependent isn’t quite the same as campaign dependent. The latter has more to do with situations where the abilities can be impactful occurring (i.e. the ability to breathe water but the campaign takes place in a desert). But a dungeon master can be ineffective or obstinate about the baseline effectiveness of any class feature, not just illusions
I think they’re just trying to temper their enthusiasm. It’s 100% S tier. It’s the most S tier subclass in the new rulebook, and except maybe trickery domain cleric. At least that’s my opinion prior to playing/DMing all this.
I mean, no. It is dependent on the DM running the campaign fairly, meaning that he/she/they are not metagaming the baddies in such a way that the illusions rarely work. If the game is DMd in a fair way, then the illusionist is absolutely A tier. Not all DMs will do the DMing fairly, and not all DMs are good at separating DM knowledge from the monster's knowledge. But that isn't the subclasses fault; functionally, in the event of a game being run the way it should be run, the subclass is S tier.
A DM that only ever uses few enemies with high HP and fire resistance would also make the Evoker almost useless. An antagonistic DM can prevent any build from being effective if they choose so.
@@deamon506 It's S tier if the DM handles Illusions as he's supposed to as opposed as the way he wants to. I'd say that, as part of rating what's on the page, it's understandable you'd consider things as they're _meant_ to be used. :)
Where I see it, low level features can be useful in combat. Like silenty cast illusion spells or minor illusion for distraction But high levels like 14th is for more solving the problems kind. It would never be B because the uses of illusions works so much better in adventure and social encounters
and yet Illusions still remain useful. Not enough monsters have true sight to warrent knocking it down points. Even if enough did, there's still the use for the spell outside of combat. Most encounters will not be with creatures that are using true sight--and most games don't go to high enough levels that this statement even matters anyway.
That is even more evil ... because you can turn illusions into reality. As for the example it will be absolutely certain that the bridge over the lava pit is REAL (because it is AND it knows it would detect illusions) and step on it ... then the wizard drops concentration and REALITY vanishes ... So, it is trickier, but you can expect cunning from an INT20 or 20+ guy. After all, that is a genius level. At least if the wording is still valid I don´t see anything that saves them: "A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range."
Evoker is a high A. Being able to drop a max damage cone of cold on your enemies and your allies while concentrating on slow. And your front line takes no damage. I've done it. It is broken.
Hypnotic pattern isn't the end-all-be-all. It can be powerful, but more often than not, the enemies that fail their saves take some damage and wake up anyway.
@@TommyTheCat83 its an ez example your right no more then just cast fireball will fix everything i was just using it saying CC is often far more useful then damage
I struggle to see how Divination is anything above B tier. As Monty touched on, there are a lot of ways for players to get advantage or bonuses on saves, so the real value with Portent rolls is getting low numbers to use against the NPCs. Let's say 8 and below, which is 40%. Maybe banking a 20 is useful for a crit, making that 45%. Let's keep it easy and say there is about a 50% chance of getting a super useful roll from Portent. This is the major class-defining ability. If you have only one major subclass ability that can work maybe 50% of the time twice a day, then I struggle to see how that makes the subclass A tier.
You can reroll your morning Portent rolls with Heroic Inspiration, and there are more ways to get that Inspiration than before (e.g. be a human to get it every day), so you can more frequently get useful numbers than what you just suggest. Counterspell now forcing a con save which you would likely really want the enemy spellcasters to fail bumps Portents importance up. Crits are more impactful in 2024 D&D because you can reroll damage with Heroic Inspiration, so a Portent die with a 20 is more valuable than before. Not being able to cast Silver Barbs on the same turn (usually) with the new one spell slot per turn rule means that a low portent roll (and even mid ones like 10s if you know approximate modifiers) are more impactful because there is more-or-less one fewer "no you didn't succeed on the save against my spell" option. So uh, I think Divination is A tier in 2024 D&D myself because of all those.
I'm currently playing a Ftr6/Wiz6 (Eldritch Knight / Abjurer), converted i.e. re-built using 2024 rules - it's a great combo, weapons for damage, spells for utility - a dual-weilding, resilient fighter, who can also use a variety of spells etc to help himself and/or the other PC's.
I'm currently playing an Eldritch Knight and was going to go War Wizard, but now I may go Abjurer too as we switch to new rules. Glad to hear that it's working great. Very excited to get those wizard levels.
I played an abjuration wizard for a while and it was tons of fun because I actually used the defensive abilities to allow me to play offensively. Spells like steelwind strike and tensers or Tasha's transformation were super fun
Sculpting fireballs is just so good though. As a DM, my creatures are constantly getting beat up by the Evoker sculpting around teammates. I realize it's only one ability, but I'd much rather face a couple of measily portent rolls per day than an Evoker. Illusions have been so hit and miss over my career in D&D that I feel like it's almost too hard to rank an Illusionist because tables vary so much.
39:48 The ladder is about 33 ft long. If you want the math, it's here. The length of each side of the cube is 20 ft. The diagonal from opposite corners on the same face of said cube is the square root of (20²+20²). 20²=400, so this is the square root of 800. Don't simplify this number. Take it as one leg of a new right triangle. The distance between two opposite corners on the cube is the hypotenuse, and the other leg is still 20, the length of the cube. Squaring the square root of 800 gives us 800. Add 400 (20²) to that, and you get 1200, the square root of which is roughly 34.64. However, this is a ladder, not a string, so you need to shave a little off that number to get a ladder that will entirely fit within the cube. This will depend a little on whether you need to accommodate gnomes, goliaths, or both, and as such the number can't be exact. But as a non-expert who already used enough mental energy doing this and wants to end with a whole number, ten inches or so off each end seems like a reasonable estimate, bringing me to 33 ft. Thank you, Pythagoras, and thank you for reading.
In 5e 2024, as a Human Divination Wizard, you could use your daily Heroic Inspiration to reroll a disappointing Portent roll, couldn't you? You could roll badly again, sure, but it feels like a decent enough use of it. 🤔 That's a nice perk.
I double checked, and you're right. Heroic Inspiration does not specify a d20 test like I thought it might, it just says any die. Thanks for the insight as I soon go into a party that will have a Divination Wizard.
@binolombardi I'd call that a maybe. Most people will probably roll a d100 to determine that, but RAW it's "a 33% chance" rather than something like "roll a d100, on a roll of 33 or less" so strict RAW I don't think it works, but could see many tables allowing it
@@Dice_and_Beans Imagine Eldritch Blast +Evoker+ either Quicken Spell (Metamagic Adept or Sorcerer levels) or the Illusionist's Bracers from Ravnica to be able to cast Eldritch Blast with both Action and Bonus Action
One thing that honestly has put Abjurer into S tier for me is the change to all of the healing spells. They are now abjuration spells. So if you take a cleric dip, or Magic initiate cleric to snag healing word. .. you're now an INCREDIBLE support, as well as being a wizard. Also mind you, concentration checks are not required if your ward tanks all the damage!
21:39 worth mentioning that Magic Missile is an Evocation spell, RAW it has only one roll for every missile, and at 14 deals max damage (once). Comparing 5th level Magic Missile vs Cone of Cold: - Cone of Cold: 8d8 +5 = 69 damage (nice) - Magic Missile: (1d4 +1 +5)*7 = 70 damage Upcasting Magic Missile against single targets is incredibly worth for an Evoker.
Wizards are my favorite class. Being able to collect all the spells is so cool. I've always wished the subclasses were more interesting though. *Illusionist though!! So playing this next!
The new player book says the Savant ability gives a spell from your school every time you gain a new level of spell slots, not every time you level up.
Abjuration doesn't deserve A tier if Evocation doesn't. Both are full of "nice" features, but Abjuration doesn't have any more of a "game breaking" feature than Evocation.
Abjuration is better geared to committing to some of the things wizards are best at though, that would be my guess for the difference in their rankings
In all my years of playing DnD, I have never once found myself really wanting to play a wizard. However, you guys really outlining what the illusionist is capable of as officially changed my mind. My favorite thing about DnD is the creative stuff it allows to blossom and that is just that subclass in a nutshell.
So an abjurer can get two shots at dispelling magic on a single turn. Bonus action cast, if it fails you don't use the spell slot. Which means you can use your action to cast it again. This would also work as a great way to bait an enemy spellcaster's reaction to counter spell the first cast.
Evoker debate: On the one hand, it could encourage a trap play style for a wizard, but for a player who makes a point of using the best concentration spells, the class features enhance the other spells the wizard might cast on subsequent rounds while still concentrating on the “main” spell. In that situation, Kelly’s A may be the right ranking.
The evoker discussion was wild, because you guys were pointing out that portent doesn't really work well at higher levels due to legendary resistances, and automaxing a level 5 fireball or cone of cold or steel wind strike can take massive bites out of an encounter's total hit points. I think Kelly was 100% correct, it deserves an A. Especially when you consider that an evoker can STILL DO CONTROL. They aren't prohibited from using those spells, they just CAN put out 300 points of damage in a round if they have to.
I imagine they can do those spells about just as good as any other wizard, and in between, they do more damage. Concentration as a mechanic needs to be taken into consideration when rating evokers. Also: big badaboom.
@natejablonski so in theory you could make a Healing Abjuration Wizard? Acolyte background to grab Healing Word powered by Intelligence . Be human to grab Magic initiate Druid to get Cure Wounds powered by Intelligence. Heal, buff your shield, cancel spells. Does that work ??
@@Cyotis You'll need to pay attention to the wording of the features as some trigger off Wizard spells specifically rather than spells in general while other features trigger off any spell. For Arcane Ward, it triggers off "Abjuration spell with a spell slot", so with 5.5 swapping most healing spells to Abjuration rather than Evocation in 5e that'll work to charge the Ward some if you're casting it with a slot, but the free 1/day cast won't impact the Ward
Note if using the Evoker as described here there's no such thing as a 1 level Order Cleric dip as they describe the 5.5 Wizard, and if you're using the 5.5 Wizard you should be using the 5.5 Cleric, which gets its subclass at 3 like everyone else. But assuming the combo you're thinking of is Sculpt Spells+Voice of Authority to Fireball your friend then save them and let them attack that'll work with the old 5e version too yeah, and potentially super early as Sculpt Spells is in the first batch of features at 2nd level in 5e rather than the second set at 6th level in 5.5
I once DM’d an adventurers league game for a Strategicon Event where my entire party of 6 people only ONE character was not a Divination or cross classed in Divination for the Portents. The only character who was not a Divination Wizard was a Paladin…. Let me tell you there was a very large pool of mixed emotions for that 4 hours. So much fun had but my face of happiness hid genuine dread because I just didn’t know how to give the party a challenge. It was one of the Oneshots that finished out the Chapter so it was supposed to be epic and Challenging and no matter what I tried to do they either saved, forced a fail or counterspelled (It was a caster heavy one shot with lair action to auto counter spell) Player: I counter spell the leaders spell Me: one of the totem’s eyes light up and you feel the spell fizzle (you’ve been counterspelled) Another Player: I counter spell the tote Me: *searching for if they can do that* Uh… I don’t see anything that says you can’t so the second totem eyes glow (You are counterspelled) Third Player: I counterspell the second Totem… Me looking at the party: I’m gonna assume if the third totem counter spells one of you are gonna do something about it. Remaining wizards in unison: Yes DM: Alright who is losing a spell slot then…
@17:28 10s & 11s can be useful for Death Saves and some skill checks (though the dudes are right about them being nowhere near as broadly useful as extreme rolls).
I love the idea of an an illusionist who, like an artist; signs their work. In every illusion there is an innocuous flaw a signature of sorts that is present in every illusion. Something very unlikely to be noticed but could still potentially give the illusion away. For example if it were to be initials- the wizards initials on the illusions shoe sole, very small but there.
As a diviner I've used scrying in the middle of an adventuring day when we didn't have time to do it as a ritual and gained a 4th level spell back. But that's the kind of thing that'll come up once or twice in a lifetime. I once used portent and hold person to shut down a boss fight because the rogue, monk, fighter and ranger all got auto crits
I mentioned this before on your previous video, but here's a correction on the Phantasmal Creatures for the Illusionist. You can cast Summon Beast/Fey either as a Conjuration or as an Illusion spell. The FREE cast version of the Summon Beast/Fey spells must be the Illusion variant. This means you can cast the Illusion variant of Summon Beast/Fey with FULL HP if you cast it with a spell slot. The Illusion version of the spells aren't forced to have half HP and do gain the benefit of the Improved Illusions feature.
35:20 L take. 44:45 page 237, Duration, Time Span. “While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.”
An evoker using Sculpt Spell with Wall of Fire is extremely effective. You get control, defense, and damage all in one spell. I've dropped a ring of fire around my party with the hot side facing outward and used Sculpt Spell to allow them to hop back and forth through the wall to attack and get back into safety. Melee attackers take massive damage trying to get to you and ranged attackers/spell casters may not even be able to do anything while you're behind/inside the wall. I've even used this same tactic in BG3, just walling off a corner of a room or kiting enemies back and forth through the fire. Over-Channel can also be a huge game changer. There may be ways of technically doing more damage with a wizard in any given situation, but don't discount the impact a maximized Chain Lightning can have on a big fight. 85 damage to up to 4 targets can severely weaken or drop even larger minions who would otherwise be there to wear down the party.
Slight correction on the illusionist level 6, you can always cast them as spectral illusions (benefitting from the extra range), it is just the free castings that have half hit points.
I've been on the fence between playing an Illusionist Wizard, Great Old One Warlock, or Valor Bard, and I think this video put me over the edge on playing the Illusionist Wizard. The Bard was mostly for the mixed spell list at 10, but the GOOlock was kind of similar to the Illusionist Wizard, but GOOlocks get Verbal AND Somatic components canceled out on both Illusion and Enchantment spells alongside some fun Invocations like the ability to cast Silent Image at will (I'll be very curious to see what you guys give them).
The thing about Abjuration wizards is that you can still learn all the same spells all the other wizards can learn so you can still play really aggressively, I’d say in some cases more aggressively because they have that little extra bit of survivability. I played a 2014 wizard to lvl 12 and survived an arena slog to the last round where everyone else had died and solo’d the final boss with careful uses of polymorph and thunder step among others.
I have a level 11 abjurer/ 3 celestial warlock in vecna. Aid is abjurarion so are all the heals (gasp) 128 hp (Con 16 tough from invocation ) 27 abjurer 20 aid (lvl 5) 25 temp from Armor of agathys (level 5) LOVE it's bonus action Tank mode engaged. Cast level 3 cure wounds/healing word gain 6 for your shield!
Question: as an abjuration wizard if you fail to dispel a magical effect you dont spend the spell slot so does that mean you're now allowed to cast a leveled spell with your action?
The examples you gave for "better things than damage" during the evoker section were all things that none of the other subclasses help with either or if they do, it is barely a difference or only a difference if you're lucky (portent). Haste the barbarian. How are abjurer, diviner, or illusionist making haste better exactly? Hypnotic pattern? Diviner on a good day can make two weak enemies fail at best. Evoker can damage the ones that saved without hitting the ones that didn't which means you can do more to contrubute to the while simultaneously controlling instead of cantrips as filler. I never loved the evoker and thought diviner was the best, but based on your own examples and discussion, I have now changed my mind and think evoker is better. Every wizadd ends up using evocation spells fairly regularly regardless of subclass.
Out of all the illusion spells....only two seem to be verbal components only, so you are actually just stealth casting Blur and Distort Value. Everything else clearly originates after you wave your hand around and hold a focus out. Illusion is very niche in most campaigns and requires a specific understanding between DM and player while all the other subclasses have very rigid mechanics that either party cant really dispute the functions of. In my opinion, Abjurer and Evoker are A and Diviner and Illusionist are high B. Evoker being less useful among all martial classes isnt an argument, if needed they can eliminate all minions with a empowered fireball clearing the path to the boss or use every other spell the other subclasses can use. I usually agree with the rankings but like others, I think this one was way off.
One of the things that used to seperate the wizard subclasses and make them feel unique was that specializing in one school of magic prevented you from even casting spells from another (i think it was 2nd E). So it really changed the way you approached a situation.
About the evoker damage role, if your barbarian takes the World Tree, you can corral enemies onto yourself and then your evoker can nuke tube them while you take no damage. Still don’t want to take away from the Paladin and the Fighter though… but it works with the barbarian at least.
Divination Cascade is nice with Mind Spike. It’s 2nd level Divination spell that deals 3d8 and another 1d8 per upcast on a failed save. You can cast 2nd level Mind Spike then cast 3rd level Mind Spike and replenish 2nd level spell slot. Then again 2nd level Mind Spike from the replenished slot.
I don’t know what is it, but you guys have both added +3 to your charisma modifier since you stated this channel. Nicely done. Also, I’m a DM who doesn’t buy into illusions. I like to run low magic worlds, and illusions are just stupid silly to me. You don’t just get to trick or manipulate entire situations with one spell. I understand the ‘wizards first rule’, but i feel like illusion spells are the equivalent of a quarterback throwing a hail-mary pass. Sure, they might work 5% of the time, but I can’t reward someone constantly throwing hail-mary passes.
I've played a number of games where the DN has a slightly harder time dealing with illusion and battlefield control, in that they're just not as effective. It didn't help that the guy rolled in probably well in front of the table, so that does skew things. But evocation and damage is always useful, and almost always does something, while save or suck spells sometimes do nothing. So I would give evoker extra points for that. As long as you don't choose a single damage type, its abilities are universally applicable when it comes to the core game loop of reducing enemies to zero, hit points to win a fight
Didn't see anyone posting these. 2014 rankings: Divination -> S Abjuration-> A Illusion -> A Evocation-> B 2024 Rankings Illusionist-> S Diviner -> A Abjuration-> A Evokes-> B So, not a lot of changes overall, just a single swap
I DMed Out of the Abyss with some extra Homebrew stuff at the end. A player took an Abjurer from 1-18, and after about level 6 or so I could never hurt them. Characters that would have died from a barrage of hits were able to kill the enemies that would have otherwise taken Them down without Projected Ward. He was definitely the MVP of the party.
My favorite trick with the new minor illusion on an illusionist wizard is to use it to make a brick wall or another obstruction in front of me, blocking sight and therefore making attack rolls at range disadvantage in many spells being completely useless, it's incredibly powerful when you don't need do you use your action on this, and you can still cast a level spell as your action.
I'm not sure you can create a key with illusionary reality that would actually work, but you could minor illusion a hole in the door, and then make that real.
I think Expert Divination really comes in handy in a campaign where spells like Scrying or Arcane Eye are helpful. If you take a short rest in the middle of the day, you have a little more incentive to do something like burn a slot on Scrying that you might otherwise save.
Something you guys brought up with your previous ranking of the Diviner which I think is still relevant is that most Divination spells are more heavily DM-dependent than any other school of magic. The DM has to decide what information to grant you every time you cast one of those mid-level divination spells to glean answers from a god, or scry on an NPC somewhere.
Warlock 2 for misty visions and mask of many faces invocations (disguise self and silent image for free). Bonus action minor illusion to add sounds to silent image. With the right DM, this is S+. PS: warlock 5 for free invisibility as stealth cast.
Wizards didn't need much to the base class, but the subclass besides the illusionist are basically the same. But now i get to better at casting illusions, and my favorite thing to do with illusion spells is creating an illusion of a displacer beast. Even if they see through the illusion they will still be looking for a real displacer beast , because thats how they hunt. It does require dm buy in but its always a good distraction for guards or enemy camp
I totally agree with Monty, Evocation even feel like a trap to me sometimes. An evoquer will want lot of different blast spell and they drop in efficiency after level 5. Illusionnist is always good, bonus action millnor illusion a wall to give you total cover each round is S tier.
Maybe you should do tier rankings of what subclasses make the most challenging/frightening villains. Because say your enemy is a lvl 17 evoker. They scry on you. Cast meteor swarm at max damage with fire elemental adept from a mile away. That’s 240 damage to anyone who fails their save and has no resistance, 180 to those who fail and have bludgeoning resistance, 120 to those who pass with no resistance, 90 to those who pass with bludgeoning resistance and - OK - Probably 0 to the rogues. Then they can do it again and take the damage. After all, they’re a mile away and you don’t know where. There are ways for high level characters to track them down but that is a SCARY villain. Much more frightening, I would argue, than an Illusionist is as a villain who would be more of a trickster than an insta-death to half the party monster.
Can you use Illusary Reality to create costly material components for other spells? Could you then expend those components in scribing scrolls, thus "locking in" the already-paid 'expense' of the components?
Duviner casts Gift if Alacrity, See Invisible, Tongues, Locate Creature and then after tracking down that creature casts Scrying to plan out the best attack plan. Net cost 1 5th level slot.
Note Gift of Alacrity is a setting specific spell that RAW isn't on the Wizard spell list, only a specific subclass so needs DM approval to take at all. However, since it's the 1st level spell in the chain and the regaining feature only kicks in when casting a spell of level 2+ any other first level spell you always cast can work to eat the 1st level slot without needing to be Divination, such as Mage Armor.
Hopefully that will be a future book. I still think the most interesting subclasses for wizard are the non spell school ones like war magic, bladesinger, and scribes. There's too much precedent to completely get rid of the school themed subclasses I guess
I was working on homebrewing some wizard subclasses that were kind of combinations of 2 of the schools of magic. Abjuration and Evocation combined for a war mage who focuses on offense and defense. Enchanter and Illusionist combined for a sort of trickery deception based wizard. Conjurer and Necromancer combined for a summoner based wizard. Diviner and Transmutation combined for a classic fantasy village hermit wizard archetype who turns things into gold and foretells ill omens and the like. I am still working on them but I agree that the specific mage school subclasses are just pretty boring thematically in my eyes.
38:22 personally I consider this the reason for the Illusionst to be S-tier. Imagine it, you teleport yourself out onto the ocean, your friends pull out a small boat when "Oh no, we forgot to bring some oars!" What now? Well the illusionist can make the dream of summoning oars to himself whenever he wants a reality.
"you're not helping"... (as an evoker with 3 martials in your part) what? the evoker deletes everything except the boss. And good god "casting haste does more damage than casting fireball", what?! are you fireballing one creature with fire resistance? Barbarians and fighters are terrible at clearing groups of enemies, and haste is a dramatically overvalued spell and if you lose concentration you've erased the benefit of multiple rounds of having it as a buff. I don't know why you both are twisting yourself in knots to make the evoker worse than it is, group clearance is incredible, an Evoker in a party that has a bard as a controller might be S tier, but it's still fantastic in every party in every conceivable campaign
My argument for the Envoker being A is you can do more with less... For example you normally need Fireball for crowds and something else for not hitting your teammates, with shape spell you no longer have to take another spell for moments when people are close together, leaving room for 1 or 2 control spells... You make blaster spells better and more versatile so you can take more control.
Granted I don’t know every illusion spell by heart, but I think the the absence of a rule in the spell, I would treat an illusion as a skill check for the enemy. Have it make a perception check against the wizard’s spell save, maybe they have good perception and notice something that gives it away, maybe they just get lucky, or maybe they have low wisdom and roll poorly. Give it a bit of risk and reward.
Only thing I disagree with is that I think Evoker might be an S. As a DM my Evoker players have often been the leading damage dealer in our games. If not, they were the second lol. Even when strong melee builds were present. I am just going off of anecdotal experience here. Edit: Everyone has taken this father than I meant it. It's all subjective but for me Evokers are an easy A and possibly S. My biggest point is that I don't think we should downplay taking the breaks off of some of the best spells in the game. It's VERY good. I won't be responding here anymore because I don't want to carry a conversation on in the comments.
@BigPurpleCarrot I understand. I won't press the issue very hard. But I have to say that even though the features are not mind-boggling on paper, they have huge ramifications in gameplay. Taking the breaks off some of the best damage dealing spells in the game is very good. And then just amping them up as well... I have seen it be INCREDIBLY effective. Maybe it depends on the campaign. But I do think it was downplayed a bit.
@@WTH13SERIOUSLY I agree it's great but that's not what S tier means for the dudes rankings. S tier is reserved for subclasses that can drastically alter the way the game is played or shut down encounters in ways other classes couldn't. Getting a massive fireball off is great but if you're not an evoker you can up cast it to get similar results.
It's worth mentioning that most healing spells have been reclassified as Abjurations. So an Abjuration Wizard could take Magic Initiate Cleric/Druid (or multiclass) and get an Int based Healing Word that also recharges their Arcane Ward.
That's really neat. Especially combined with Projected Ward, you've got a great support kit in addition to usual Wizard tools.
@@BIGGGO4 though note it's "with a spell slot" (presumably to cut off the Alarm ritual/Warlock Invocation Mage Armor cheese), so it'll work for later casts, but not the free 1/day
Isn't the spell gained from Magic Initiate cast using the ability score from the class they gained it from?
@@jasco.gaming In 5e yes, in 5.5 you can choose any of the mental stats
@@neoman4426 oh that's amazing then!
Damage to Arcane Ward does not trigger concentration checks right? That is worth something in itself if so.
Also, it was not mentioned, but I think you can also burn a spell slot to gain double the hit points in ward protection back. I think this helps it stay useful and relevant for longer. Closer to A imo.
@@AndICanTalk2 they gave it an a tho wdym
@@AndICanTalk2 but would you really waste a 6 level spell slot for 12 hit point? You can get more from a first level cure wounds.
I was only saying it helps make tge case for an A @fatgumthegoat
@lucabancone no, but if I was high level I might burn a couple of lower level slots, and since you now apply resistance before taking away from a ward, even relatively low amounts of ward could help with chip damage, or prevent you from dying if your already low, but your party healer hasn't had a chance to patch you up. I am certainly not saying it's always the best move, but it adds options, which is rarely bad.
illusory reality can't deal damage or give conditions, but wanna know what it can do? be worn. Dealing with a pesky archmage? cast major image to make an illusion of ring-mail armor which tracks their movement as if it was being worn, then make it real as a bonus action! congrats! the archmage can no longer cast spells because they're wearing armor they're not proficient with and they will not be able to take it off in the next minute that this will last!
Jesus christ this is genius lmao
Oh that is DEVIOUS.
Or just lock them into an adamantine box and use heat metal on it.
@@gaberielpendragon no no, that's for the enemies that can't use magic... but still you're a sicko for this one
@@EspressoDepresso839 under the right conditions you could do this to the entire enemy team. Naw, I'm just a hungry half dragon cooking up dinner in my oven.
26:45 evoker is doing fireball damage to multiple enemies. 30 damage to three enemies is 90 damage
Exactly my train of thought for AOE spells.
Like how Prayer of Healing gives 2d8 to 5 creatures. In a 5 person party that’s 10d8 Healing with 1 2nd level slot. An average of 45 HP.
exactly. And are there no damage spells that qualify for this feature that are single target more damage spells?
yeah, thats where they always miss on why Evokers are S tier I've wiped out parties of enemies with Fireball: 22Hp x 5 enemies= 110 dmg. and that can be with friends in the blast without getting hurt.
For 2024, I would switch your choices for Diviner and Evoker.
By your definitions, a Diviner is B because it is still decent, but in certain situations it can be S tier (the situations being when the dice gods give you the roll for that day you wanted/needed, and/or you have the time to wait for the rolls to be the numbers you want before you enact your plan).
Meanwhile, the Evoker cranks what it can do to 11. An attack cantrip can always do something. Pockets of protection for area effects. Max damage evocation spells. Etc.
I mean, the evoker's hold monster is still just as effective as the Diviner who rolled a 10 and an eleven that day, but you also can choose to have your highest damage evocation spell for Max damage as well (you mention fireball, but there are other spells that can do more damage or can target a different save, rather than just upcasting fireball). Just because Monte wouldn't cast evocation spells 80% or more of time doesn't mean the abilities themselves aren't great. After all, maybe the ancients paladin or world tree barbarian already have battlefield control handled...
Otherwise, great video. Thanks for making.
The Diviner rides on the no questions aksed you failed you safe feature that Portent often gives you. You roll low the enemy you target will fail their save versus Banishment. You Roll high well your martial Ally will hit when it matters. Basically they get a good chance to get a feature Sorcerers have to burn a lot of points for but better every day. And if they don't get it they can give Allies two guranteed Hits ...
Features like that with no defence, no safe against it are very powerfull when you need them. So I understand their reasons. Level 6 I agree they get exited about a feature that in actual play does not work out nearly as well as they theorycraft. Since as they admitted in the beginning it can get hard to find good Diviniation Spells for every Level.
On the other han you will always find a usefull option in the Level 10 Features.
I thought the same while listening to the video
I love the shared joy of giving a crit to the rogue, or giving a 19 to the fighter for a free crit 😊
@BobHerzog1962 Banishment is a fantastic spell, to the point it really could use nerfing. Monsters tend to have Charisma be their dump stat only slightly more often than players. You can't base an entire playstyle on one spell, though. Well, you *can* (see eldritch blast), but it can get pretty boring.
What about between levels 3 and 7, though? No banishment yet. You may find something to do with the 8 and 13 you rolled for the adventuring day, but not necessarily.
To derail the topic a bit, the more I thought about Banishment, the more I despise the spell. It turns a player into mostly a one-note trick pony; upcast banish to remove important pieces of the enemy force, then blast the remainder while your concentration is taken. Makes a pure smite paladin seem versatile.
IMO it's been such conventional wisdom in 5E that Wizard's are not damage dealers that it's hard for many people to accept that Evoker's actually are even when its staring them right in the face. IMO Evoker's are at a minimum A Tier since their abilities are ALWAYS useful, and situationally S-Tier - that situation being clumps of monsters - and unlike other situations - grouped monsters comes up ALOT. A 5th Level Evoker hitting 10 monsters with a Fireball for 24 damage each is 240 damage at 5th level. A 14th level Evoker hitting 20 mobs with an over channeled cone of cold (64+5=69*20 ) is 1380 damage. NO OTHER class can do this type of AOE damages since the PCs will almost always be in the way of the blast, only an Evoker can do this because of how sculpt spell and their other Evoker subclass abilities synergize with each other. IOW, if your DM likes tossing a lot of mobs at you at once, Evoker is S-Tier and in almost all campaigns unless low combat/high role play will be A-Tier. IMO you could make an argument that Evokers are unbalanced because they get to do massive damage AND do not give up the versatility of the Wizard class.
Monty is right that damage isn't spellcasters greatest strength, but nothing stops you from grabbing control and utility spells. But when you blast... you BLAST
i have divined that divination wizard will be ranked well
I'm with Kelly. Evoker is definitely A, because the Evoker FEELS and PLAYS like an Evoker. In comparison, I don't agree that Diviner is an A, but rather a B because of the very reason's stated in the video. I think Monty's bias towards the Diviner got the better of him in this case. A wizard can still act like an arcane Swiss army knife no matter which subclass you choose. However, because combat can often be the most exciting part of a game, Evoker deserves a rank higher than Diviner. Once again, an Evoker feels and plays like an Evoker wizard at all levels, while a diviner lacks the same feeling with it's class features beyond 3rd level. The idea of playing a Diviner just for Portent does not excite me. On the other hand the Evoker has class features I look forward to gaining beyond 3rd level, so excited in fact it makes me think twice about multi-classing.
I totally agree, personally I think on a bad die rolling day on the diviner feels like a trap and is a straightup D. Honestly I think the subclass is straight up bad design.
The thing is even though Evoker is designed for combat doing damage isnt the most impactful thing you can do
with magic. CC, AoE, and Buffs and debuffs are gonna do a lot more for your party than just doing damage. So you might as well bring something that isnt just damage like Arcane Ward, illusions, or Portent to diversify your options.
@@okstusdefinitely an imbalanced design, though I hesitate to say bad. The main issue with Diviner is that Portent is so freaking good that nothing else they get can even be memorable
@@benross9174you’re 100% right, but I think the Dudes are trapped by their own ranking system here. Diviner isn’t good enough to be S but Monty is sure that it is better than Evoker. But Evoker is too good to be a B.
I feel like they’re confusing high power for A rank. I would personally call Evoker A rank because it will not fail to do its job in nearly every campaign. Is it the perfect choice depending on party composition? Maybe not. But you WILL have fun blasting everything. Optimized and fun are not mutually inclusive
Evoker is A at least. Not sure what the Dudes have been smoking. Overthinking it. You want an Evoker on your team. It's not like an Evoker can't cast Slow or Sleet Storm
Level 14 Illusion wizard just can't be locked in a cage. Illusion of an unlocked door, make it real, walk out.
No wizard with Misty Step can be locked in a cage though. It's not a big deal.
@@apjapki they can if they fail charisma saves to get out of a force cage.
@@michaelmuirhead910 True
@@apjapki If you mean cage in the sense that it has bars so you can see out of it, sure. But you have to be able to see the point you are misty stepping too, so if you're in a room without any discernable way in or out, and now point of view outside it (which can be done by magical means or some sort of trap), then misty step is completely useless.
OR if you get blinded.
@@shawnwolf5961 Yes, by cage. I meant cage.
My dudes friends, you cannot really hesitate to put evoker at A when you just put the diviner at A for only one feature.
Monty is a blue player biaised against red players.
but portent is really good and you get it at level 3. meanwhile evoker cant even do the magic missel spam you used to be able to
@@deathtaco4095 Yeah, but to their own admission, there are multiple C tier features for Diviner. While Evoker has all their features being more useful, aside from portent dice. Personally, I'm fine with Diviner being A tier. But it's shocking that Evoker somehow isn't.
Yeah it stood as out breaking their own guidelines tbh. Either way good to hear the content :)
Evoker abilities are only useful in combat. My group has only been in one combat encounter in the last 4 sessions. If you play DnD as a TTWG, evoker might be better than diviner. If you play a more balanced DnD game, diviner is most liky better. If combat is a fail state in your game, diviner is SO much better.
I like the level 10 abjurer ability. It really adds a theme of anti magic wizard.
Exorcist almost
Mind Spike is a 2nd level Divination spell. The Diviner can cast it, do some damage, and get back the spell slot used on Mage Armor. He can upcast it for decent damage and get back a spell slot. It's not the best damage ever, but it is psychic.
I came here to say this and saw someone already did. Upcasting Mindspike to regain spell slots can be used all the time, so you have more spell slots than other subclasses. Plus you couple Portent with Lucky feat and Halfling Luck Points, and you're just manipulating dice everywhere, all while throwing out twice the number of spells a day when you include arcane recovery.
The problem with mind spike is that it just doesn't do enough damage for what it is, and the fact that it requires concentration means it has limited applications in combat, since you don't want to break your concentration on a spell that is effecting the battlefield or buffing an ally. MS does 3d8 to a single target, whereas shatter would do the same to every target in an area without using concentration, and scorching ray could do 6d6 to a single target if they all hit (or more if you crit), again with no concentration requirements. Even looking at other 2nd level concentration spells, I would personally much rather concentrate on web, phantasmal force, Maximillian's earthen grasp, cloud of daggers, levitate, enlarge/reduce, etc. Plus, if you're upcasting MS to get back a lower level slot, why didn't you just upcast the spell you were going to use that slot on? Or just cast a divination spell that buffs someone in some way or gives you an out-of-combat utility, like borrowed knowledge, see invisibility, or arcane eye? Basically, I think trying to make that feature a combat feature is like trying to cut a steak with a spoon: you COULD do that, or you could use the knife right next to it and save the spoon for dessert.
Yeah, but the spell isn't that good. The damage isn't enough for the spell slot, the debuff rarely comes up, it's a single target spell that requires concentration, and psychic damage isn't that much better than, say, thunder. Just take a better damage spell (I'd pick Shatter or Scorching Ray).
Mind spike is terrible. You waste a 2nd level spell slot to do slightly more damage than a cantrip would, it requires concentration, so whatever you were concentrating on is going down the toilet and all for a 1st level slot? Upcasting mind spike is an even worse choice. 3rd level: just cast fireball, fear, hypnotic pattern, etc. instead for a much, much, much bigger impact on the battlefield. 4th level: banishment, black tentacles, psychic lance, polymorph...again, much bigger impact. 5th level and up...I don't even want to begin. Nope, no mind spike for me, thank you. The best use of expert divination is out of combat, when you use your spell slots for scouting with arcane eye, clairvoyance, scrying, etc. or being a skill monkey with borrowed knowledge and still be able to cast leveled spells after all that crap.
It's such bad damage it's not worth doing. If you are fighting an elusive enemy, mind spike might be worth the slot, but otherwise it is just a waste of a spell slot. The damage is barely over cantrips damage.
Excellent cut at 41:37
I think the new Evoker is similar to your Malfeasance subclass. The Evoker gets all its damage spells for free and can pick 2 utility/niche spells every level. It's a swiss army knife without sacrificing combat damage.
I absolutely agree. The abdurer and diviner both offer stuff for a specific kind of wizard, but I'm not sure they make the wizard that much better at that specific niche than the evoker makes a blaster stronger.
The fact that other wizards will still throw an evocation spell or damage, the Delta between another wizard's damage and an evoker's damage is a lot bigger than an evokers control or support, and any other wizard's control or support (besides portent)
The abjurer's token is wearing an eye patch, I hope he eventually got better at abjuring.
Maybe they became an abjurer because they lost the eye
@@moonlight2870 Excellent point!
@moonlight2870 "gotta make sure, I don't loose the other one." Famous last words before becoming a Diviner instead.
I will say and 2024 dwarf with the background feat of tough as an abjuration wizard would give a nice bit of comfort compared with most when a mob starts running towards you.
43:00 if it’s S-tier in a DM-dependent campaign, doesn’t that just mean it’s a B-tier?
DM dependent isn’t quite the same as campaign dependent. The latter has more to do with situations where the abilities can be impactful occurring (i.e. the ability to breathe water but the campaign takes place in a desert). But a dungeon master can be ineffective or obstinate about the baseline effectiveness of any class feature, not just illusions
I think they’re just trying to temper their enthusiasm. It’s 100% S tier. It’s the most S tier subclass in the new rulebook, and except maybe trickery domain cleric. At least that’s my opinion prior to playing/DMing all this.
I mean, no. It is dependent on the DM running the campaign fairly, meaning that he/she/they are not metagaming the baddies in such a way that the illusions rarely work. If the game is DMd in a fair way, then the illusionist is absolutely A tier. Not all DMs will do the DMing fairly, and not all DMs are good at separating DM knowledge from the monster's knowledge. But that isn't the subclasses fault; functionally, in the event of a game being run the way it should be run, the subclass is S tier.
A DM that only ever uses few enemies with high HP and fire resistance would also make the Evoker almost useless. An antagonistic DM can prevent any build from being effective if they choose so.
@@deamon506 It's S tier if the DM handles Illusions as he's supposed to as opposed as the way he wants to.
I'd say that, as part of rating what's on the page, it's understandable you'd consider things as they're _meant_ to be used. :)
As to Illusionists, many high level monsters/bosses have truesight, so "S" tier at low/mid levels but prob "B" at high levels of play.
Where I see it, low level features can be useful in combat. Like silenty cast illusion spells or minor illusion for distraction
But high levels like 14th is for more solving the problems kind. It would never be B because the uses of illusions works so much better in adventure and social encounters
and yet Illusions still remain useful. Not enough monsters have true sight to warrent knocking it down points. Even if enough did, there's still the use for the spell outside of combat. Most encounters will not be with creatures that are using true sight--and most games don't go to high enough levels that this statement even matters anyway.
That is even more evil ... because you can turn illusions into reality. As for the example it will be absolutely certain that the bridge over the lava pit is REAL (because it is AND it knows it would detect illusions) and step on it ... then the wizard drops concentration and REALITY vanishes ...
So, it is trickier, but you can expect cunning from an INT20 or 20+ guy. After all, that is a genius level.
At least if the wording is still valid I don´t see anything that saves them:
"A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range."
Evoker is a high A. Being able to drop a max damage cone of cold on your enemies and your allies while concentrating on slow. And your front line takes no damage. I've done it. It is broken.
I would say low A it's fun but you drop a hypnotic pattern and you would change the fight way more
@@druxusthemage9806drop a Hypnotic Pattern without targeting your allies! ;)
That's half the fun lol I played a divination wizard 1 to 20 it's not hard to do that just a alittle more thinking
Hypnotic pattern isn't the end-all-be-all. It can be powerful, but more often than not, the enemies that fail their saves take some damage and wake up anyway.
@@TommyTheCat83 its an ez example your right no more then just cast fireball will fix everything i was just using it saying CC is often far more useful then damage
I struggle to see how Divination is anything above B tier. As Monty touched on, there are a lot of ways for players to get advantage or bonuses on saves, so the real value with Portent rolls is getting low numbers to use against the NPCs. Let's say 8 and below, which is 40%. Maybe banking a 20 is useful for a crit, making that 45%. Let's keep it easy and say there is about a 50% chance of getting a super useful roll from Portent.
This is the major class-defining ability. If you have only one major subclass ability that can work maybe 50% of the time twice a day, then I struggle to see how that makes the subclass A tier.
You can reroll your morning Portent rolls with Heroic Inspiration, and there are more ways to get that Inspiration than before (e.g. be a human to get it every day), so you can more frequently get useful numbers than what you just suggest. Counterspell now forcing a con save which you would likely really want the enemy spellcasters to fail bumps Portents importance up. Crits are more impactful in 2024 D&D because you can reroll damage with Heroic Inspiration, so a Portent die with a 20 is more valuable than before. Not being able to cast Silver Barbs on the same turn (usually) with the new one spell slot per turn rule means that a low portent roll (and even mid ones like 10s if you know approximate modifiers) are more impactful because there is more-or-less one fewer "no you didn't succeed on the save against my spell" option. So uh, I think Divination is A tier in 2024 D&D myself because of all those.
I can tell you've never DM'd a campaign with a diviner.
I'm currently playing a Ftr6/Wiz6 (Eldritch Knight / Abjurer), converted i.e. re-built using 2024 rules - it's a great combo, weapons for damage, spells for utility - a dual-weilding, resilient fighter, who can also use a variety of spells etc to help himself and/or the other PC's.
I'm currently playing an Eldritch Knight and was going to go War Wizard, but now I may go Abjurer too as we switch to new rules. Glad to hear that it's working great. Very excited to get those wizard levels.
I played an abjuration wizard for a while and it was tons of fun because I actually used the defensive abilities to allow me to play offensively. Spells like steelwind strike and tensers or Tasha's transformation were super fun
Sculpting fireballs is just so good though. As a DM, my creatures are constantly getting beat up by the Evoker sculpting around teammates. I realize it's only one ability, but I'd much rather face a couple of measily portent rolls per day than an Evoker. Illusions have been so hit and miss over my career in D&D that I feel like it's almost too hard to rank an Illusionist because tables vary so much.
39:48 The ladder is about 33 ft long. If you want the math, it's here.
The length of each side of the cube is 20 ft. The diagonal from opposite corners on the same face of said cube is the square root of (20²+20²). 20²=400, so this is the square root of 800.
Don't simplify this number. Take it as one leg of a new right triangle. The distance between two opposite corners on the cube is the hypotenuse, and the other leg is still 20, the length of the cube. Squaring the square root of 800 gives us 800. Add 400 (20²) to that, and you get 1200, the square root of which is roughly 34.64.
However, this is a ladder, not a string, so you need to shave a little off that number to get a ladder that will entirely fit within the cube. This will depend a little on whether you need to accommodate gnomes, goliaths, or both, and as such the number can't be exact. But as a non-expert who already used enough mental energy doing this and wants to end with a whole number, ten inches or so off each end seems like a reasonable estimate, bringing me to 33 ft.
Thank you, Pythagoras, and thank you for reading.
This. This is why I'm a barbarian user.
@natejablonski could make it even longer if you allow a more complex hinged or sliding one to count as one "object"
@@neoman4426 would "inanimate" conflict with hinges and stuff?
In 5e 2024, as a Human Divination Wizard, you could use your daily Heroic Inspiration to reroll a disappointing Portent roll, couldn't you?
You could roll badly again, sure, but it feels like a decent enough use of it. 🤔
That's a nice perk.
I double checked, and you're right. Heroic Inspiration does not specify a d20 test like I thought it might, it just says any die.
Thanks for the insight as I soon go into a party that will have a Divination Wizard.
@@natejablonski Can technically even use it on damage or when leveling up (if you roll for HP rather than taking the average)
JC even recommended using it for rerolling HP on level up in the release video.
Heroic Inspiration can be used to reroll losing the wish spell.
@binolombardi I'd call that a maybe. Most people will probably roll a d100 to determine that, but RAW it's "a 33% chance" rather than something like "roll a d100, on a roll of 33 or less" so strict RAW I don't think it works, but could see many tables allowing it
I really wished order of scribe could made it and gave them sculpt spell and create spell from UA playtest
It fits their subclass so well
Evoker cantips works on eldritch blast. So tome-vokers is gonna be fun to play.
@@Dice_and_Beans Imagine Eldritch Blast +Evoker+ either Quicken Spell (Metamagic Adept or Sorcerer levels) or the Illusionist's Bracers from Ravnica to be able to cast Eldritch Blast with both Action and Bonus Action
One thing that honestly has put Abjurer into S tier for me is the change to all of the healing spells. They are now abjuration spells. So if you take a cleric dip, or Magic initiate cleric to snag healing word. .. you're now an INCREDIBLE support, as well as being a wizard.
Also mind you, concentration checks are not required if your ward tanks all the damage!
Kelly's name for this episode should been Kelly "I can do a lot of things in a minute" McLaughlin. NO doubt it's his best line today 😂
21:39 worth mentioning that Magic Missile is an Evocation spell, RAW it has only one roll for every missile, and at 14 deals max damage (once).
Comparing 5th level Magic Missile vs Cone of Cold:
- Cone of Cold: 8d8 +5 = 69 damage (nice)
- Magic Missile: (1d4 +1 +5)*7 = 70 damage
Upcasting Magic Missile against single targets is incredibly worth for an Evoker.
Wizards are my favorite class. Being able to collect all the spells is so cool. I've always wished the subclasses were more interesting though.
*Illusionist though!! So playing this next!
The new player book says the Savant ability gives a spell from your school every time you gain a new level of spell slots, not every time you level up.
Abjuration doesn't deserve A tier if Evocation doesn't. Both are full of "nice" features, but Abjuration doesn't have any more of a "game breaking" feature than Evocation.
Abjuration is better geared to committing to some of the things wizards are best at though, that would be my guess for the difference in their rankings
Shenanigannery is my new favorite word. Thanks, Kelly.
#JusticeToEvoker
In all my years of playing DnD, I have never once found myself really wanting to play a wizard. However, you guys really outlining what the illusionist is capable of as officially changed my mind. My favorite thing about DnD is the creative stuff it allows to blossom and that is just that subclass in a nutshell.
So an abjurer can get two shots at dispelling magic on a single turn. Bonus action cast, if it fails you don't use the spell slot. Which means you can use your action to cast it again. This would also work as a great way to bait an enemy spellcaster's reaction to counter spell the first cast.
Evoker debate: On the one hand, it could encourage a trap play style for a wizard, but for a player who makes a point of using the best concentration spells, the class features enhance the other spells the wizard might cast on subsequent rounds while still concentrating on the “main” spell. In that situation, Kelly’s A may be the right ranking.
Shout out to the sponsor! I had a Scribe Wizard who tattooed their spellbook on their skin. So cool to see a new subclass for it.
The evoker discussion was wild, because you guys were pointing out that portent doesn't really work well at higher levels due to legendary resistances, and automaxing a level 5 fireball or cone of cold or steel wind strike can take massive bites out of an encounter's total hit points. I think Kelly was 100% correct, it deserves an A. Especially when you consider that an evoker can STILL DO CONTROL. They aren't prohibited from using those spells, they just CAN put out 300 points of damage in a round if they have to.
I imagine they can do those spells about just as good as any other wizard, and in between, they do more damage. Concentration as a mechanic needs to be taken into consideration when rating evokers. Also: big badaboom.
The spells from Magic Initiate, can you up cast those with spell slots since it says you can cast those with slots.
Yes, you can.
@natejablonski so in theory you could make a Healing Abjuration Wizard? Acolyte background to grab Healing Word powered by Intelligence . Be human to grab Magic initiate Druid to get Cure Wounds powered by Intelligence. Heal, buff your shield, cancel spells. Does that work ??
@@Cyotis You'll need to pay attention to the wording of the features as some trigger off Wizard spells specifically rather than spells in general while other features trigger off any spell. For Arcane Ward, it triggers off "Abjuration spell with a spell slot", so with 5.5 swapping most healing spells to Abjuration rather than Evocation in 5e that'll work to charge the Ward some if you're casting it with a slot, but the free 1/day cast won't impact the Ward
@@neoman4426 Deal! Sounds pretty kewl to me.
So hyped to try the new illusionist. Small human to hide in full cover minor illusions, Eldritch Adept feat for Misty Visions at will Silent Image.
Love how they cut away after Kelly said “I can do a LOT of things in a minute” 😂
Evoker with a 1 level Order Cleric dip is hysterical.
Note if using the Evoker as described here there's no such thing as a 1 level Order Cleric dip as they describe the 5.5 Wizard, and if you're using the 5.5 Wizard you should be using the 5.5 Cleric, which gets its subclass at 3 like everyone else. But assuming the combo you're thinking of is Sculpt Spells+Voice of Authority to Fireball your friend then save them and let them attack that'll work with the old 5e version too yeah, and potentially super early as Sculpt Spells is in the first batch of features at 2nd level in 5e rather than the second set at 6th level in 5.5
I once DM’d an adventurers league game for a Strategicon Event where my entire party of 6 people only ONE character was not a Divination or cross classed in Divination for the Portents. The only character who was not a Divination Wizard was a Paladin…. Let me tell you there was a very large pool of mixed emotions for that 4 hours. So much fun had but my face of happiness hid genuine dread because I just didn’t know how to give the party a challenge. It was one of the Oneshots that finished out the Chapter so it was supposed to be epic and Challenging and no matter what I tried to do they either saved, forced a fail or counterspelled (It was a caster heavy one shot with lair action to auto counter spell)
Player: I counter spell the leaders spell
Me: one of the totem’s eyes light up and you feel the spell fizzle (you’ve been counterspelled)
Another Player: I counter spell the tote
Me: *searching for if they can do that* Uh… I don’t see anything that says you can’t so the second totem eyes glow (You are counterspelled)
Third Player: I counterspell the second Totem…
Me looking at the party: I’m gonna assume if the third totem counter spells one of you are gonna do something about it.
Remaining wizards in unison: Yes
DM: Alright who is losing a spell slot then…
"I can do a lot of things in a minute"... hard cut away 😂
8:54 I mean hey, the new Green Dragon is getting spells built in. And they don’t use spell slots so Counterspell really hurts them
@@EpicRandomness555 good point!!!!
lookin good boys! been waitin for this one! tyvm!
Twice I have either changed the course of or completely shut down a combat encounter using minor illusion and they are two of my proudest moments
I love the word Kelly uses for the illusionist; shenanigamary!
@17:28 10s & 11s can be useful for Death Saves and some skill checks (though the dudes are right about them being nowhere near as broadly useful as extreme rolls).
I love the idea of an an illusionist who, like an artist; signs their work. In every illusion there is an innocuous flaw a signature of sorts that is present in every illusion. Something very unlikely to be noticed but could still potentially give the illusion away. For example if it were to be initials- the wizards initials on the illusions shoe sole, very small but there.
41:37
"I can do a lot of things in a minute" - Kelly "Minuteman" McLaughlin
As a diviner I've used scrying in the middle of an adventuring day when we didn't have time to do it as a ritual and gained a 4th level spell back. But that's the kind of thing that'll come up once or twice in a lifetime. I once used portent and hold person to shut down a boss fight because the rogue, monk, fighter and ranger all got auto crits
Just figured out a way for evoker wizard to do an almost guaranteed 648 damage with a 2 spell combo. it is not a B.
...do tell 😊
"rolling fireball dice without killing your firends is extra fun"...hard disagree there...
I mentioned this before on your previous video, but here's a correction on the Phantasmal Creatures for the Illusionist.
You can cast Summon Beast/Fey either as a Conjuration or as an Illusion spell.
The FREE cast version of the Summon Beast/Fey spells must be the Illusion variant.
This means you can cast the Illusion variant of Summon Beast/Fey with FULL HP if you cast it with a spell slot.
The Illusion version of the spells aren't forced to have half HP and do gain the benefit of the Improved Illusions feature.
35:20
L take.
44:45
page 237, Duration, Time Span.
“While a time-span spell that you cast is ongoing, you can dismiss it (no action required) if you don’t have the Incapacitated condition.”
Glad these are back! Looking forward to warlock!
An evoker using Sculpt Spell with Wall of Fire is extremely effective. You get control, defense, and damage all in one spell. I've dropped a ring of fire around my party with the hot side facing outward and used Sculpt Spell to allow them to hop back and forth through the wall to attack and get back into safety. Melee attackers take massive damage trying to get to you and ranged attackers/spell casters may not even be able to do anything while you're behind/inside the wall. I've even used this same tactic in BG3, just walling off a corner of a room or kiting enemies back and forth through the fire.
Over-Channel can also be a huge game changer. There may be ways of technically doing more damage with a wizard in any given situation, but don't discount the impact a maximized Chain Lightning can have on a big fight. 85 damage to up to 4 targets can severely weaken or drop even larger minions who would otherwise be there to wear down the party.
Diviner should be B, everything you did to describe it sounds like a B to me.
ahhahahahahahhah
Slight correction on the illusionist level 6, you can always cast them as spectral illusions (benefitting from the extra range), it is just the free castings that have half hit points.
Let's go. I have been looking forward to this tier ranking
I've been on the fence between playing an Illusionist Wizard, Great Old One Warlock, or Valor Bard, and I think this video put me over the edge on playing the Illusionist Wizard. The Bard was mostly for the mixed spell list at 10, but the GOOlock was kind of similar to the Illusionist Wizard, but GOOlocks get Verbal AND Somatic components canceled out on both Illusion and Enchantment spells alongside some fun Invocations like the ability to cast Silent Image at will (I'll be very curious to see what you guys give them).
The thing about Abjuration wizards is that you can still learn all the same spells all the other wizards can learn so you can still play really aggressively, I’d say in some cases more aggressively because they have that little extra bit of survivability.
I played a 2014 wizard to lvl 12 and survived an arena slog to the last round where everyone else had died and solo’d the final boss with careful uses of polymorph and thunder step among others.
I have a level 11 abjurer/ 3 celestial warlock in vecna.
Aid is abjurarion so are all the heals (gasp)
128 hp (Con 16 tough from invocation )
27 abjurer
20 aid (lvl 5)
25 temp from Armor of agathys (level 5) LOVE it's bonus action
Tank mode engaged. Cast level 3 cure wounds/healing word gain 6 for your shield!
Assasin + Illusion Wizard. Oh my
Arcane Trickster: What am I to you?
I think we are goong to see a lot of bards and arcane tricksters taking a three level dip into illusionist for all those fun abilities
Question: as an abjuration wizard if you fail to dispel a magical effect you dont spend the spell slot so does that mean you're now allowed to cast a leveled spell with your action?
I'm inclined to say the action you used is still spent, but you can expend a new spell slot if you have a bonus action spell to use it on.
You still spend the Action. Nowhere does it say otherwise.
If you have a bonus Action Spell then sure, you can cast it that turn
@@James-kv3ll at 10th level you can cast dispel magic as a Bonus action
@@EldritchNight Then you spend the bonus Action. Just flip what I just said backwards my guy
@@James-kv3ll He specified "as an abjuration wizard" and then pointed out the abjuration wizard's ability, my dude. So the answer is simply "yes".
The examples you gave for "better things than damage" during the evoker section were all things that none of the other subclasses help with either or if they do, it is barely a difference or only a difference if you're lucky (portent).
Haste the barbarian. How are abjurer, diviner, or illusionist making haste better exactly?
Hypnotic pattern? Diviner on a good day can make two weak enemies fail at best. Evoker can damage the ones that saved without hitting the ones that didn't which means you can do more to contrubute to the while simultaneously controlling instead of cantrips as filler.
I never loved the evoker and thought diviner was the best, but based on your own examples and discussion, I have now changed my mind and think evoker is better.
Every wizadd ends up using evocation spells fairly regularly regardless of subclass.
House rule for portent, can use it *after* the roll is made when using it on your own or an ally's test.
44:00 All 4 Illusionist features are great. I think I'd take each of them over all other same level subclass features except Portent.
Out of all the illusion spells....only two seem to be verbal components only, so you are actually just stealth casting Blur and Distort Value. Everything else clearly originates after you wave your hand around and hold a focus out. Illusion is very niche in most campaigns and requires a specific understanding between DM and player while all the other subclasses have very rigid mechanics that either party cant really dispute the functions of. In my opinion, Abjurer and Evoker are A and Diviner and Illusionist are high B. Evoker being less useful among all martial classes isnt an argument, if needed they can eliminate all minions with a empowered fireball clearing the path to the boss or use every other spell the other subclasses can use. I usually agree with the rankings but like others, I think this one was way off.
Well you can just cast them, from far away, or with Improved Invisibility, or hidden.
One of the things that used to seperate the wizard subclasses and make them feel unique was that specializing in one school of magic prevented you from even casting spells from another (i think it was 2nd E). So it really changed the way you approached a situation.
It was AD&D 2E. Back then, you also got bonus slots for higher INT. That caused insane numbers of spell slots in god-tier play like BG2+ToA.
About the evoker damage role, if your barbarian takes the World Tree, you can corral enemies onto yourself and then your evoker can nuke tube them while you take no damage. Still don’t want to take away from the Paladin and the Fighter though… but it works with the barbarian at least.
Divination Cascade is nice with Mind Spike. It’s 2nd level Divination spell that deals 3d8 and another 1d8 per upcast on a failed save.
You can cast 2nd level Mind Spike then cast 3rd level Mind Spike and replenish 2nd level spell slot. Then again 2nd level Mind Spike from the replenished slot.
I don’t know what is it, but you guys have both added +3 to your charisma modifier since you stated this channel. Nicely done.
Also, I’m a DM who doesn’t buy into illusions. I like to run low magic worlds, and illusions are just stupid silly to me. You don’t just get to trick or manipulate entire situations with one spell. I understand the ‘wizards first rule’, but i feel like illusion spells are the equivalent of a quarterback throwing a hail-mary pass. Sure, they might work 5% of the time, but I can’t reward someone constantly throwing hail-mary passes.
the emperor weeps when damage becomes a false idol
I've played a number of games where the DN has a slightly harder time dealing with illusion and battlefield control, in that they're just not as effective. It didn't help that the guy rolled in probably well in front of the table, so that does skew things.
But evocation and damage is always useful, and almost always does something, while save or suck spells sometimes do nothing. So I would give evoker extra points for that. As long as you don't choose a single damage type, its abilities are universally applicable when it comes to the core game loop of reducing enemies to zero, hit points to win a fight
I haven't been interested in playing an Illusionist in a LONG time. It is now in the lead for next character I play!
Didn't see anyone posting these.
2014 rankings:
Divination -> S
Abjuration-> A
Illusion -> A
Evocation-> B
2024 Rankings
Illusionist-> S
Diviner -> A
Abjuration-> A
Evokes-> B
So, not a lot of changes overall, just a single swap
I DMed Out of the Abyss with some extra Homebrew stuff at the end. A player took an Abjurer from 1-18, and after about level 6 or so I could never hurt them. Characters that would have died from a barrage of hits were able to kill the enemies that would have otherwise taken Them down without Projected Ward. He was definitely the MVP of the party.
My favorite trick with the new minor illusion on an illusionist wizard is to use it to make a brick wall or another obstruction in front of me, blocking sight and therefore making attack rolls at range disadvantage in many spells being completely useless, it's incredibly powerful when you don't need do you use your action on this, and you can still cast a level spell as your action.
I'm not sure you can create a key with illusionary reality that would actually work, but you could minor illusion a hole in the door, and then make that real.
I think Expert Divination really comes in handy in a campaign where spells like Scrying or Arcane Eye are helpful. If you take a short rest in the middle of the day, you have a little more incentive to do something like burn a slot on Scrying that you might otherwise save.
Something you guys brought up with your previous ranking of the Diviner which I think is still relevant is that most Divination spells are more heavily DM-dependent than any other school of magic. The DM has to decide what information to grant you every time you cast one of those mid-level divination spells to glean answers from a god, or scry on an NPC somewhere.
Warlock 2 for misty visions and mask of many faces invocations (disguise self and silent image for free). Bonus action minor illusion to add sounds to silent image. With the right DM, this is S+.
PS: warlock 5 for free invisibility as stealth cast.
Wizards didn't need much to the base class, but the subclass besides the illusionist are basically the same. But now i get to better at casting illusions, and my favorite thing to do with illusion spells is creating an illusion of a displacer beast. Even if they see through the illusion they will still be looking for a real displacer beast , because thats how they hunt. It does require dm buy in but its always a good distraction for guards or enemy camp
I totally agree with Monty, Evocation even feel like a trap to me sometimes. An evoquer will want lot of different blast spell and they drop in efficiency after level 5.
Illusionnist is always good, bonus action millnor illusion a wall to give you total cover each round is S tier.
Maybe you should do tier rankings of what subclasses make the most challenging/frightening villains.
Because say your enemy is a lvl 17 evoker. They scry on you. Cast meteor swarm at max damage with fire elemental adept from a mile away. That’s 240 damage to anyone who fails their save and has no resistance, 180 to those who fail and have bludgeoning resistance, 120 to those who pass with no resistance, 90 to those who pass with bludgeoning resistance and - OK - Probably 0 to the rogues.
Then they can do it again and take the damage. After all, they’re a mile away and you don’t know where.
There are ways for high level characters to track them down but that is a SCARY villain. Much more frightening, I would argue, than an Illusionist is as a villain who would be more of a trickster than an insta-death to half the party monster.
What sweater is Monty wearing!?!?!? I am in love ~
Can you use Illusary Reality to create costly material components for other spells? Could you then expend those components in scribing scrolls, thus "locking in" the already-paid 'expense' of the components?
The best battlefield control is by removing enemies...through death by fire
Duviner casts Gift if Alacrity, See Invisible, Tongues, Locate Creature and then after tracking down that creature casts Scrying to plan out the best attack plan. Net cost 1 5th level slot.
Note Gift of Alacrity is a setting specific spell that RAW isn't on the Wizard spell list, only a specific subclass so needs DM approval to take at all. However, since it's the 1st level spell in the chain and the regaining feature only kicks in when casting a spell of level 2+ any other first level spell you always cast can work to eat the 1st level slot without needing to be Divination, such as Mage Armor.
To be fair, they should have done away with the schools of magic being the wizard's subclasses, and gone for something a bit more interesting.
Hopefully that will be a future book. I still think the most interesting subclasses for wizard are the non spell school ones like war magic, bladesinger, and scribes.
There's too much precedent to completely get rid of the school themed subclasses I guess
Agree
I was working on homebrewing some wizard subclasses that were kind of combinations of 2 of the schools of magic.
Abjuration and Evocation combined for a war mage who focuses on offense and defense.
Enchanter and Illusionist combined for a sort of trickery deception based wizard.
Conjurer and Necromancer combined for a summoner based wizard.
Diviner and Transmutation combined for a classic fantasy village hermit wizard archetype who turns things into gold and foretells ill omens and the like.
I am still working on them but I agree that the specific mage school subclasses are just pretty boring thematically in my eyes.
At least the Savant feature doesn't actively discourage you taking spells of you school on level up anymore. Or, at least not as much as 2014.
Yes! Learn from the Bladesinger love
38:22 personally I consider this the reason for the Illusionst to be S-tier. Imagine it, you teleport yourself out onto the ocean, your friends pull out a small boat when "Oh no, we forgot to bring some oars!" What now? Well the illusionist can make the dream of summoning oars to himself whenever he wants a reality.
Talking about the power of the Illusuonist. "It is an unreal spell."
"you're not helping"... (as an evoker with 3 martials in your part) what? the evoker deletes everything except the boss. And good god "casting haste does more damage than casting fireball", what?! are you fireballing one creature with fire resistance? Barbarians and fighters are terrible at clearing groups of enemies, and haste is a dramatically overvalued spell and if you lose concentration you've erased the benefit of multiple rounds of having it as a buff. I don't know why you both are twisting yourself in knots to make the evoker worse than it is, group clearance is incredible, an Evoker in a party that has a bard as a controller might be S tier, but it's still fantastic in every party in every conceivable campaign
The worst thing is: Haste or Fireball isn't even a choice. It's Haste,THEN Fireball.
Thing is: nothing they're doing you couldn't do as a Diviner or Illusionist. The subclass itself gives you very little
@@UltimosGabriel yeah they do, it’s called drop upcasted, maxed out fireball without killing your squad.
My argument for the Envoker being A is you can do more with less... For example you normally need Fireball for crowds and something else for not hitting your teammates, with shape spell you no longer have to take another spell for moments when people are close together, leaving room for 1 or 2 control spells... You make blaster spells better and more versatile so you can take more control.
Granted I don’t know every illusion spell by heart, but I think the the absence of a rule in the spell, I would treat an illusion as a skill check for the enemy. Have it make a perception check against the wizard’s spell save, maybe they have good perception and notice something that gives it away, maybe they just get lucky, or maybe they have low wisdom and roll poorly. Give it a bit of risk and reward.
Only thing I disagree with is that I think Evoker might be an S. As a DM my Evoker players have often been the leading damage dealer in our games. If not, they were the second lol. Even when strong melee builds were present. I am just going off of anecdotal experience here.
Edit:
Everyone has taken this father than I meant it. It's all subjective but for me Evokers are an easy A and possibly S. My biggest point is that I don't think we should downplay taking the breaks off of some of the best spells in the game. It's VERY good. I won't be responding here anymore because I don't want to carry a conversation on in the comments.
There's no specific features that are S class. Nothing here is what a wizard couldn't do already it just makes it easier and more cost effective.
@BigPurpleCarrot I understand. I won't press the issue very hard. But I have to say that even though the features are not mind-boggling on paper, they have huge ramifications in gameplay. Taking the breaks off some of the best damage dealing spells in the game is very good. And then just amping them up as well... I have seen it be INCREDIBLY effective. Maybe it depends on the campaign. But I do think it was downplayed a bit.
@@WTH13SERIOUSLY I agree it's great but that's not what S tier means for the dudes rankings. S tier is reserved for subclasses that can drastically alter the way the game is played or shut down encounters in ways other classes couldn't. Getting a massive fireball off is great but if you're not an evoker you can up cast it to get similar results.
I agree. Sculpt spell was underrated. You never want to surround or corner the evoker-and just try grappling their friends.
Then it’s a A or B. S would mean it’s the best all the time