Catholicism and Anglicanism at Our Ladye Star of the Sea, Greenwich
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- Put your seat belts on, because this one is quite a ride. Fr Kevin Robinson is a priest who converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism around the time the Church of England decided to ordain women. Unusually, as a consequence, he is a married priest and - he told me off camera - has a dispensation from the Pope to be so.
I think recent and forthcoming changes to the Church of England are profound historical events for both Catholicism and Anglicanism - Fr Kevin thinks so too and explains why. For him it is also a personal event.
History is dead centre to the Hereticatious brief - thus the video - let me know what you think in the comments.
There may be some who consider this video breaks my “no proselytising” rule - but in this case I just don’t think you can tell the story without discussing the nature of personal faith. I think Fr Kevin does this honestly and powerfully. He was also content to allow some of my critical questions to remain in place. Hopefully you’ll agree the result is balanced and interesting - even fascinating.
As a protestant anglican Christian it is very interesting to listen to this eloquent and knowledgable man. Very interesting when he was asked about anglican tenets re. the bread and wine, and said it depended on whether the church was anglo catholic or not. As a ‘low’ church anglican I don’t really get the high church tradition. As the priest said, the 39 articles are very definite about the bread and wine, which makes high church ceremony seem empty and bogus.
I completely respect Catholics for what they believe and how their liturgy, ritual and church furnishings all complement that belief in a truthful and meaningful way.
I do not get high church Anglicanism - it’s like having all the outer vestiges of a belief that is at odds with Anglican doctrine.
That's very interesting. As an atheist, I my first instinct aligned with your's - in that the catholic position seemed more internally consistent - but then my second thought was - where does it leave you..., excluding the ordination of women ; a catastrophic approach to abortion and birth control; bizarre Janus faced attitudes to homosexuality.
High church anglicanism at least allows you to have your cake and eat it too.
That's not true. You have a very poor understanding of High Anglicanism, its history and what it stands for. It will sound very bizarre of me to say that Low Church Anglican beliefs is emptying bogus. In reality, we all can make such arguments against each other and even against Rome and be right in our own thinking. Anglo-Catholicism doesnt hold the 39 Articles to be definite and entirely true. Anglo-Catholics are more consistent with their theology which compliments their liturgy, arts, architectural understanding of buildings and living out the faith. It is a movement that seeks to return the English Church and her sister Churches to its roots and heritage and to reconcile it with the wider Universal Church. These things are public knowledge. There are no Anglicans today who are true to the so-called 39 Articles and this is even true among GAFCON movements. After the split with Rome, the Church remained Catholic; it is always to, at least, begin the conversation from there.
@@liturgicalpodium if Anglo Catholics don’t hold the 39 articles to be definite and true then bye bye! Off you pop and go back to the Roman Catholics. I don’t get why you have a problem with that. If your beliefs are more commensurate with theirs then it makes sense. There are Roman Catholic churches all over the country, and quite right too.
People get hung up about the 39 Articles. They are not the foundational documents of the Church of England. When Henry VIII broke with Rome (for selfish and political and financial reasons) he also severed the English Church and nation from Communion with Rome. But Henry, doctrinally and theologically was no protestant. The Act of Supremacy was in 1534. The first Book of Common Prayer was in 1549. So for the first 15 years of its separate existence, the Church of England used the pre - Reformation Mass (Sarum Missal) in Latin. Priests continued to be (at least in theory) celibate, seven Sacraments continued to be believed in, and priests were ordained according to the pre-reformation usage. Henry had no time for Lutherans and Calvinist types. The original 'Articles of Religion' were 6 in number, and they affirmed pre-reformation doctrine -Transubstantiation, Prayer for the dead, Confession to a priest, etc (minus papal supremacy). Articles of Religion do not have in Anglicanism the status of (e.g) the Westminster Confession in Calvinism. A CofE priest at ordination makes the followining declaration
"I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon."
Note the order: Faith REVEALED in Scripture, SET FORTH in the catholic creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) to which the historic formularies of the Church of England (Articles) BEAR WITNESS. So it is a generalised assent. So basically the Scripture, and the Catholic (universal faith of the undivided Church) have more weight than the 39 articles. Now of course some ppl claim Anglo Catholicism makes no sense ( hence many come to this conclusion and go over to Rome), but it is very difficult to argue with the fact that contemporary Anglo-Catholicism is closer to the church of the late 1530s up to 1549, than any of the 'reformed' stuff. And even the 1549 Book of Common Prayer speaks of "The Lords Supper, Holy Communion, commonly called The Masse"
@@liturgicalpodium. The Church Remained “Catholic “ until the Edwardine Ordinal
You have introduced us to some fascinating individuals in this series. Generally I have a fairly low opinion of the CofE, however the priests who we have met are a sheer delight, and now this chap, CofE gone to Rome, is a mix of eccentricity and passion and a man who is clearly driven by his faith. Brilliant documentaries of London's churches and the people who lead them. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words - they genuinely help me keep going. This project has also raised my opinion of the clergy too (although it wasn't exactly "low" before - it was more, umm, compromised).
They have been Interesting, knowledgeable, authentic to a person.
Yes! Fantastic! What an amazing interview 👏 🙂
Thankyou Lloyd!
More to come next week!
Bazzelgette I just subscribed to your channel of which looks equally interesting...xXx
Noice Baz
Wonderful video! The priest is very knowledgeable and inspiring. I live a couple of miles from this church and have long been curious about it - I definitely want to attend mass there now. The church is beautifully situated too - on a hill, overlooking Greenwich Park.
And good pubs nearby too!
@@hereticatious Yes there are many good pubs in Greenwich!
I love these historical & faithful videos. Also that Church is stunningly beautiful! Can't wait to embark on a pilgrimage there. 🙂
Phew, very deep. Loved the information about the window.
It was a fun chat. He is definitely one of those people with whom its fun to "agree to disagree" with.
so accurate and precise.
Thoroughly enjoyable. Like you, I'm an atheist, but I also went to school in an era when an "act of worship" happened every day. I liked the hymn tunes best. And some of the words. The rest just passed me by. But now I'm much older I'm trying to understand my "Christian heritage" better.
Yes - sounds like we had a similar education. You don't have to believe it to recognise the impact on our literary, musical and built culture. Learning about this stuff holds a mirror up to the present day (albeit a somewhat compact mirror). Thanks for watching.
@@hereticatious My own background was strictly non-conformist - parents married in a Methodist church, sent to a Congregational Sunday School to get me out of the house. But as I go back through my mother's family I soon find involvement with the Swedenborgian church. My American cousin was the first woman to be ordained in her (liberal) branch of the church, and she married two women on a Florida beach one morning. Fr. Kevin is right, though. As soon as you get Protestantism, you get splintering. Even the Swedeborgians have done that - and the episcopal, conservative branch has always been more successful in the USA. It's as if people want to be told what to do and what to believe, not left to be able to think for themselves. And if that's what you want, Fr. Kevin's argument for going for the "authentic" version is hard to resist.
Hmm... there are other claims for authenticity with similar historical depth. From where I sit - its all pick and choose.
@@hereticatious I'm sure you're right. And I'm equally sure we don't need any of it.
Plain speaking, yet the timelong truth.
Kevin or me?
I'm the fan in FACTastic
Because Allun ya stuff is
absbl🌺🌺minglutely terrific
or be it horrific.
Either way I love it..xXx
Thanks! This one felt a bit different - so I'm glad its still landing
Well that ended all of a sudden?
Indulgences were done away with ?
We Orthodox reject the stance of the C of E and of the RC. We say that Christ is the Head of the Church in a real sense. We have bishops, but they are not heads of anything. They simply represent the church in a particularly area and an archbishop is simply a title of honour. For instance, the Archbishop of Constantinople is not some sort of Orthodox pope. He is simply a bishop, but one holding a place of honour with regard to other bishops of a certain region.
Clearly I need to visit an Orthodox Church - suggestions welcome!
@@hereticatious I wish that I could help you out with a suggestion, but I am not from the London area. I know that there are some churches in London, but I cannot recommend any to you as I do not know them. The only one that I know of is in Walsingham.
Submit to Rome so you aren't damned for schism.
@@hamie7624 Submit in Arabic is islam.
@@stephanottawa7890 correct, and completely beside the point. There is no union with Christ without union with Rome. Repent and submit to Rome.
Henry VIII made Catholicism illegal in England, not Great Britain, The Tudors never ruled over Britain.
Henry VIII kept the Mass and always considered himself a Catholic. It is his son Edward and later Elizabeth who made Catholicism illegal
Our Lord is not kept in the tabernacle perpetually... He is reposed after the Maundy Thursday Mass.