It's great that fewer people are going to college
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- The time and money spent on college can often be used more productively.
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Fewer people are going to college these days, and that's great news.
For decades, the percentage of recent high school graduates attending college was climbing, until about 2008, when it started leveling off. Twelve years later, it went in the other direction, with the largest one-year drop in over 30 years coming between 2019 and 2020. And then it continued falling into 2021, albeit at a lower rate.
According to some analysts, it's starting to climb back up. Which would be a shame.
The Wall Street Journal reports that in the past 10 years, about 200 colleges have closed down, or four times as many as in the previous decade.
Meanwhile, in Tennessee, where five colleges have closed since 2016, officials have launched a "call to action" to try to reverse the trend.
State officials are promising new programs to bring kids back to campus, on top of the massive federal subsidies for college already on the books.
Back in 2014, President Barack Obama defended federal policies that encourage kids to go to college in an interview with Tumblr founder David Karp, who happens to be a high school dropout.
But Obama didn't explain the reason for that wage premium, which isn't based on actual knowledge accrued by college graduates. As the economist Bryan Caplan argued in his 2018 book, The Case Against Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money, most people don't learn anything on campus that helps with their actual jobs, and only kids who make it all the way to graduation earn more.
That's because a college degree is actually what Caplan calls a "signaling mechanism," or a way of showing that you have the fortitude to make it through. Employers want to hire college graduates not because of what they learned in English class but because they're more likely to arrive on time and do what they're told.
So why are fewer students going to college now? One theory is that employers can't afford to care as much because there's such a big labor shortage. Now, even high school graduates are getting tantalizingly high salaries. For teenagers, that may be outweighing the draw of college, particularly with such eye-popping tuition rates.
Daniel Moody, a 19-year-old who took a job at a Ford Motor Co. plant right out of high school told the Associated Press "if I would have gone to college after school, I would be dead broke…The type of money we're making out here, you're not going to be making that while you're trying to go to college."
Another explanation for the decline in college attendance is that a lot of people my age are dropping out of the workforce altogether. OK, that is a big problem-but sending more people to college isn't going to solve it.
In 2020, about 75 percent of kids who took the ACT did so badly that test administrators deemed them unprepared for college. And yet over 60 percent of high school graduates still go. If we could bring college attendance down even more, maybe fewer people would drop out and be stuck with loans and no degree to show for them.
"There were a lot of us with the pandemic, we kind of had a do-it-yourself kind of attitude of like, 'Oh - I can figure this out,'" a high school graduate in Tennessee named Grayson Hart told the Associated Press.
Like many teens, Hart thinks the time and money spent on college could be used more productively by just starting his career.
"Why do I want to put in all the money to get a piece of paper that really isn't going to help with what I'm doing right now?" said Hart, who's directing a youth theater program.
I hope more high school students ask themselves that question.
Photos: Steve Jurvetson from Menlo Park, USA, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Web Summit, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Envato Elements.
Music: "Strawberry Rush," by Jane & The Boy via Artlist; "Mangrove," by Olmi via Artlist; "Friday Night Drinks," by b Track Shinto via Artlist.
Written by Emma Camp; edited by Regan Taylor; audio production by John Osterhoudt.
College destroyed the apprentice model, which works exceedingly well still! People learn best when they are fully invested in the product of that knowledge - their earnings and self-satisfaction. You can't get that from a classroom or a textbook. You get it from jumping in and hitting your mits on it.
It really depends on the profession. Imagine learning to be a doctor by simply “hitting your mits on it” with no background knowledge.
@@martinlutherkingjr.5582 After completing medical school med students will work at training hospitals and work under residents and specialists. An apprenticeship is built into a doctor's career.
@@pent2 Right but that’s why I said “with no background knowledge”. Imagine people doing residency straight out of high school with no understanding of medicine?
@@martinlutherkingjr.5582 I mean, I guess?
Most professions are the same way. 1st year associates at law firms are just apprentices, usually not allowed to really touch anything at all. It isn't until they become a senior associate that they are truly on their own.
I love the "You can't make it on just a high school diploma" mentality. There's a gigantic asterisk on that statement. If you go into the skilled trades, it's often totally a different ballgame. Our younger son, now 23 years old, will become a Journeyman welder this June after completing a four-year apprenticeship. Zero debt. He's paid off this car loan and purchased his first house at age 22... while still an apprentice. Once he becomes a Journeyman, he'll get another nice hourly raise. He's also already vested in his union's pension plan. I think college can still be of value if you go to study a specific job skill, like engineering or IT, but for so many other kids it seems to be a bad bargain.
Thing is, being an apprentice is more than just a HS diploma for any trade to start with.
So technically the mentality is still true, as going to a trade is still an upgrade from the HS diploma
@@alexipestov7002 On one level, that's true. However, Obama and others, speak of a dichotomy of either you go to college or you don't... with not going to college being viewed as the substandard option. Likewise, if my son is handed a job application in the future, odds are the "Education Level" check boxes would limit him to "High School Diploma."
As someone from a trades family background, I saw how family members struggled and their body was beaten down, I'm going to college so I can get a job I can do until I'm 90 and avoid dying at a young age.
even in IT I don't necessarily think you need college. There are exams open to the public, yeah they're a little expensive to take but not even close to a single semester tuition, and these exam grant certification that is seen as equivalent to work experience.
I am a senior software engineer with a healthy six figure income... and just a high school diploma.
I went to college after 6 years of military. My military experience taught me discipline, hunger and desire to be better. With little GI Bill assistance and part time work, I barely survived but graduated with engineering degree. Now I see too many kids going to college straight out of school without any clear direction or focus. They take the easy way out by taking some BS degree. I've always said that 1) not everybody needs a degree and 2) world needs brick layers. Most people that have taken up a trade have proven to be more successful than a college graduate with a basket weaving diploma. High Schools need to stop pushing everyone towards college and bring back trade programs (wood shop, auto shop, etc...).
I'd like to see the US do like Israel and require every kid to do some public service. I think it would help them to focus, learn about themselves, and hopefully develop some appreciation for their country
As someone who comes from a family that did construction, the only thing laying bricks did for anyone was get them paid like shit and a busted back. I'll stick with going to college and get a job I can keep doing until I die
Pragmatic!
Lots'a love, cheers, & Mabuhay, from tropical Philippines!
@@ky9616 "The world needs brick layers" isn't meant to be taken 100% literally. Sure, we certainly do need people who can put up brick walls, but the point of the statement is more that the world needs people who are willing to get their hands dirty. After all, it takes an architect to design the building, an engineer to make sure it stays sound... but it'll take woodworkers, welders, pipe fitters, electricians and heavy equipment operators to actually build it and turn that design into an office or apartment building. And once it's built, you'll need janitors and maintenance staff to keep the building in good condition, Security to keep an eye on it, and Fire and Police Services to respond to any major issues that do come up.
So for every architect or engineer, we need dozens of people to make their vision reality, and just as many to keep that vision in one piece.
If the US school system is anything like ours, less students means less funding. I myself have a number of students that don't want to be here learning with me, but would rather be doing something else. I would love to have them drop and move on with their life, and I could work a day less. Unfortunately admin would prefer to have that funding coming in so they will encourage students to stay on and follow a university pathway even if it doesn't lead to a relevant outcome for them. Once they are adults it's not the schools issue, they just want the max funding so they can fund lots of release time. If you're not familiar with that it's basically admin and support work so that teachers can be paid not to teach.
I got a 4 year degree in 1985. I always thought the day would come when the degree would help me get a better job.
That day never came…
Oof, what was it in?
@@citrosoda5370 My degree was math. It also did not help me.
@@kevinstreeter6943 My condolences; that sucks. Perhaps it's salvageable if you ever get a job in tech tho
@@citrosoda5370 It is ok. Those days are over. Just agreeing with the video. I do believe my college education has value to me, just not to an employer.
@@citrosoda5370 underwater basket weaving??
Ok. If you're in a stadium and you stand up, you get a better view. If 20% of the people stand up, they'll get a better view too just not quite as much. If everyone stands up, no one gets a better view.
Okay but if everyone doesn't stand up then the people behind them get screwed?
@@pent2 Uhhhh... what?
That's the kind of thinking that keeps Humanity held back
@@TimGautier sure I think we should teach them to do what they like to do
That way they do it with passion.
Sounds like something Jesus would have told his disciples.
I tried to go to college. Couldn't handle it. I went to the workforce right after high school. When I was 21, I was hired by a contractor for insurance companies.
When I was 25, I was hired by an insurance company and worked there ever since. I now make more than most my college educated peers. Because I spent so much time specializing in my trade.
good job, congrats
Need more people going to trade school. These are the skilled workers who maintain our infrastructure.
I’d agree but sadly those jobs often don’t pay enough, unless you play your cards right or have a lot of years under your belt
And that’s just one of several problems with those professions
🇨🇳 can maintain our infrastructure
@@shortchubbyneckbeard1681 plumbers, diesel mechanics, skilled carpenters, welders don't get paid well? Compared to who?
@@InappropriateShorts China can't even maintain its own without stealing technology from the West.
@@shortchubbyneckbeard1681 many of those jobs can generate six figure incomes.
I remember, years ago, interviewing for a job. They asked about my degree, which I never claimed to have. Despite the position being well within my demonstrated aptitude and not requiring any specialized education, the HR rep snobbishly concluded the interview by telling me to get back in touch after I get a degree.
Did you ask them how that would improve job performance?
Yes, the primary value of a college credential is that check off on the HR spreadsheet.
With a few exceptions it is clearly a gatekeeping exercise but with degrees so prevalent it is one that has no downside for the company to keep in place.
I think there is a resentment that people have after accruing a lot of debt only to find out that people did just as well without. Then they feel compelled to gatekkeep on behalf of the system, since they're already locked into carrying its burdon.
@@benjamindover4337 Of the two most successful people I know one is an accountant who became a partner in his firm and the owner is a plumber who grew his business from one man to the largest in the state.
You can be successful with a degree or without and you can fail with a degree or without.
A lot of people in HR and HS counselors have bought into the idea that college is the only way to success because they conflate college with education rather than recognizing that college is only one path to education.
If you want to go to college, start at a community college and see if college is even right for you. If not, you haven't lost nearly as much money, and if so, you can go on to a 4-year school from there if you want.
I paid for my two year degree out of pocket. Decided college sucks.
No f that. No college and do trade school. We don’t need more idiots that a machine can do better and faster.
Excellent advice!
Plus, you can get a marketable skill in 2 years.
@@prschuster Gender theory is not a marketable skill.
Interestingly, 1923 was a big year for articles about higher education in Scribner’s Magazine. The article excerpted below by the author of ‘The Plastic Age’ (1924) that exposed the college culture of the time (Basically, the ‘Animal House’ of its time) is spot on equating college as a place that (used to) teaches students how to learn faster than the commercial world.
"The idea is, of course, that men are successful because they have gone to college. No idea was ever more absurd. No man is successful because he has managed to pass a certain number of courses and has received a sheepskin which tells the world in Latin, that neither the world nor the graduate can read, that he has successfully completed the work required. If the man is successful, it is because he has the qualities for success in him; the college "education" has merely, speaking in terms' of horticulture, forced those qualities and given him certain intellectual tools with which to work-tools which he could have got without going to college, but not nearly so quickly. So far as anything practical is concerned, a college is simply an intellectual hothouse. For four years the mind of the undergraduate is put "under glass," and a very warm and constant sunshine is poured down upon it. The result is, of course, that his mind blooms earlier than it would in the much cooler intellectual atmosphere of the business world.
"A man learns more about business in the first six months after his graduation than he does in his whole four years of college. But-and here is the "practical" result of his college work-he learns far more in those six months than if he had not gone to college. He has been trained to learn, and that, to all intents and purposes, is all the training he has received. To say that he has been trained to think is to say essentially that he has been trained to learn, but remember that it is impossible to teach a man to think. The power to think must be inherently his. All that the teacher can do is help him learn to order his thoughts-such as they are."
Marks, Percy, "Under Glass", Scribner's Magazine Vol 73, 1923
I'm currently in school studying engineering. I can confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that the field I'm specializing in (consumer gadgets and the like) does not require many of the skills which are taught in schools these days. SO MANY of the people I work with are the "academically-centered" type, focusing on and defining their success in terms of grades in math classes. I am the opposite - spending much of my time simply making things and learning new skills in the process. Although they would kick my ass on a calculus exam, I wholeheartedly kick theirs when it comes time to actually apply our "higher education" and create something. I've literally met people working the night shift at Home Depot who have superior engineering skills to many of my peers, as they know how to learn the skills necessary to accomplish their goals.
What's most astounding to me, however, is the sheer lack of independence among many of my peers. Not only do many of them have virtually zero idea how to learn something without being taught by a professor (we have access to an awful lot of knowledge on the Internet after all), but some have literally shown up to college not knowing how to trim their nails, wash their clothes, unclog a toilet, etc.
I do believe there is a place for such people in this world (likely at a big corporate job where lots of reports are written and performance is heavily tracked), but it's certainly not the place for me and certainly isn't leading to much innovation and creation!
Well don't that beat all?
Part of the drive to college is the failure of public schooling. These schools keep reducing standards to meet government specified goals, instead of providing for their real customers: students. A high school diploma doesn't mean that someone will show up on time anymore, so it's practically worthless.
In the USA now a high school diploma doesn't even guarantee that the holder can read or speak in complete sentences
I got my degree in computer science and when I came out of college I went to work for a company that had many workers who had never had formal training in coding, including my boss. Right on day one I could out code any of the non college educated folks at that company, and could do so by a great margin as they had zero concept of coding logic, how to write tight and solid code, and how to make sure their code was easily readable and reusable. When it comes to the sciences and engineering disciplines, college makes for much better workers than just on the job experience. My younger brother went straight to working at the factory and by the time I was 30, not only had I paid off all my college debt, I was making nearly triple what he was making. Today I make 5x what he makes per year.
Yes, folks need to get a real degree and they need to actually GET the degree, but it is worth it for those who do.
Agree. Studied CS in college as well, got a good education, and I make enough. But most of our generation isn't any better off going and spending five digits they can't afford and four years of their time in something that often doesn't teach real skills or result in higher pay. Only go to college as a means to an end, not because you "have to" or because of the "experience." It's a business decision, just like deciding if you need a car, an apartment or house, if you're going to drive or fly. You weigh the costs and benefits. The problem now is people don't weigh them; they just think there's no choice but to, and they take on serious debt and get a sheet of paper that says they studied English.
STEM, accounting, and finance. Can't think of much else that's worth the money.
@@justingolden21 Because they choose stupid degrees, or because they fail to complete their education. That is on them. My eldest is graduating with a communications degree and with zero debt because I bought educational trusts when my kids were not even in preschool (which I did because I know they are going to be screwed by the national debt and the social security/medicare fiascos). That being said, before he even graduated he has saved enough to put a down payment on a small house (and he could use the retirement accounts I also funded for them when they were born and which are worth over 10k today) and his pay coming out of college is $55k/year, which is not bad for Michigan. So, even lesser college degrees have value if you actually get the degree.
@@DarkHorseSki absolutely. Good planning on your part too ♥️
@@justingolden21 thanks... it sucks a bit to sacrifice on my part, but eventually everybody is going to need to sacrifice to pay off all the debt AND to make social security and Medicare solvent (though I am just for chucking them both.) I know my kids are screwed on that front, but I could at least protect them from some costs as well as try to secure their retirement to compensate for that which my generation and the generations before refused to do to make things right.
I didn't sign up for college last year because the process was too confusing and financial aid didn't cover enough of the cost.
Be grateful. That's where kids go to become vaccinated, woke, gender fluid mental health patients. Rejection is God's protection. You don't even have to believe in God to see how you've been spared are worser fate (financial, mental, emotional). Etc.
And most importantly, it’s the country’s biggest ongoing scam. Forgot to mention that.
Yea if you can’t figure out how to sign up that’s a good sign that you shouldn’t go.
@@InappropriateShorts 💀
Consider yourself lucky not to be saddled with a lifetime of debt and look into trade schools and apprenticeships.
Do literally anything useful like Engineering or Computer Science or medical and force yourself if you have to, it will pay off. The only people who whine about college are those who chose a useless major and didn't try hard enough
True. The point being, don't go unless it's necessary for the job... So STEM for the win, but too many people are studying useless subjects and then get bitter when they can't find something with it. I'd know, I was one of them.
Went to school for a bachelor's of science in nursing, and while you can always have a job in nursing, it wasn't worth the cost of schooling. Nurses get treated like they didn't go to college even though they did. So even in fields where you can get a job and the pay is decent enough it often isn't worth it due to the working conditions in the career field, or due to the money lost in opportunity cost and tuition. BTW I started at a community college before transferring and lived at home to save money, got as many grants etc as I could but still graduated with too much debt as I didn't have any help. People always say you can get scholarships, but many don't regardless of how many you apply for, and most are small compared to tuition too. If I could go back I would have done something different.
The way to add value to a degree is to pass out fewer degrees.
Did you drink the stupid juice? If more people had degrees society would become better. Do you honestly think we would be worse off handing out more M.D.s?
The degree is worthless, it's only what you can do with the degree that is valuable and these days, it's really not much. A degree doesn't add value to your life, YOU add value to your life with the skills you acquire and use.
The best part, chatgpt can do the coding for us now... So really smart investment is becoming a TH-camr, because that's what we need more TH-camrs and less Doctors, engineers and architects. Has anyone seen the movie Idiocracy? I think we are a few years ahead of schedule.
Problem #1 is we no longer value being educated and look to college as a job preparation factory. I have four degrees (BS, MS, MA, MEd) and only the education degree was taken to qualify for a job. Now nearing 60 I see the value of my investment in higher education. It taught me how to learn, how to think critically, how to read, how to communicate verbally and through the written word, and exposed me to amazing people I would not have meet otherwise. So, if you're ONLY think about getting a job, then yes one should think deeply if a college education is for them. If you are seeking to start the journey of becoming an educated citizen then college is a great place to start. By the way I have two business degrees, and the one degree I value the most is my history degree that some would call a "useless" degree.
The problem is are economy is crashing and college is expensive, I and many others can’t afford college
Such silly short term thinking to say that if you go to college, you'll make more money. You know how many people I've run into at walmart or starbucks who have bachelor's degrees?
how many?
The decision to go to college is overwhelmingly an individual choice and I find it difficult to make such a broad claim supporting declining admissions numbers. By grandfather was drafted into the military at 20 years old to serve in WWII (US). He didn't have time to go to college, and he created a remarkably successful business. I'm a senior in high school, salutatorian, and looking to pursue a BS in Statistics & Machine Learning and a BS in Human-Computer Interaction at an ultra-competitive, ultra-expensive private university. American colleges and universities have major areas where they need to improve to attract and retain students, but we shouldn't be celebrating these failures.
The decline in enrollment explains the massive inflation in tuition. When you have a monopoly and revenue declines just increase the ability for your customers to finance paying you.
Actually in the US it has been documented that the massive increase in tuition matched exactly with the government taking over the student loan program. The money became much easier to get, and plenty of it. The universities responded by increasing the amount they could collect from the government
I've heard statistics that only half of all those who go to college get a degree and only half of those who graduate get a job where their degree is relevant, let alone required. Therefore only 25% of those who go actually benefit from the time and expense. My number might be a little off but I'm defenitely sure college is oversold.
When you look at what jobs are actually available most of them don't need college. They either need you to have education in a trade (which you can get in a few months) or they just need you to pass a drug test. I remember seeing someone interviewed during the height of unemployment under Obama and he was saying he knew of 10 million openings in manufacturing and construction but more than 90% of applicants failed the drug test.
Most jobs that do require a degree rather than trade school will be replaced by AI soon anyhow.
@@julialerner3322 yeah I'm looking forward to having an AI defend me in court against the government AI on a murder charge...
I got a biology degree that didn't lead to a job right away. Then I went through a 2 year HVAC program that got me work in building maintenance. I finally retook some of my biology courses at a community college which got me a job as a biology tutor there. The trick is to have a plan about what you want to do before going to school.
Sounds like more employers need to do away with their drug tests. I could honestly care less about what the people I work with put in their bodies as long as they're sober enough to do the job correctly.
@@chasemartin4450 Most employers with heavy machinery (cardboard balers and trash compacters count) think it's cheaper to prohibit recreational users from working than to give every employee a sobriety test at the beginning of every shift.
Eliminate student debt by eliminating student loans. Student loans only inflate tuition.
you should have stayed in school.
@@royharper2003 two bachelors’s degrees
@@rustynails68 then you should know that a good eduication is worth the cost
@@royharper2003 It depends. My foreman didn’t go to high school.
@@rustynails68 Yes but he probably worded his way up the ladder.
I once heard a corporate owner state, "A college degree is only good for your first job interview".
I really wish I didn't go, but family pressure kept me going. I finally dropped out. If you really hate going to school, college is the last place you want to be.
I will say all the crazy stuff we see in colleges today, I saw it's beginnings over 30 years ago. I think all of education should be defunded.
and so what do you do now for a living? Thinking that all of education should be defunded is really an ignorant statement and if you were educated youn would understand why.
Maybe if they only give out student loans for degrees that benefit society. Maybe if there were more doctors and engineers and less arts degrees being subsidized by student loans there would be a healthier society where stuff could be better designed for cheaper cost.
Well to a marxist socialist, gender studies and other activist degrees are extremely important as its the pipeline to getting more votes, better to have the marked decide what is most likely to pay off the loans.
@@---...---...---...---... wanted to write exactly that. We'd end with lesbian dance studies majors.
The only actual way is taking student loans away from the government and giving them back to private banks. And telling them straight up that there'll be no buyback as in 2008.
That way student debt will be canceled by bankrupcy, so the banks would have to weight who they give loans to. And whether those people go to college that teach or to tge one that has great parties, pools and a golf fieldn
This is why I want private loans back. When it's YOUR money on the line, you tend to be smarter about who and what you invest in.
Honestly, I think our society's engineering would be better suited if we had less people sitting in classrooms learning mostly useless skills and more people, out in the real world, gaining hands-on experience designing and building things.
At least that's my take as an engineering student...
@@need-money-for-porsche How many people with art degrees end up jobless?
And "design" is a umbrella term. With cars you can design the exterior (art), interior (art + enginering), engine, suspension, transmission, brakes (all engineering)
She cites young people dropping out of the workforce.
I recently turned 65, I work in industrial sales, I’m good at the job (or so I’m told), I’ve been out in God’s own trenches for a long time, and I’ve died on the hill of at will employment a few times in my day.
As a result, I’ll be pushing my boulder until I can’t.
My customer base are industrial and manufacturing accounts, and some construction accounts. I often get an unsolicited earful of “people don’t want to work today” from my customers. But I can say unequivocally that the vast majority of my customers (including my current employer of 10 years tenure, and for that matter, many of my previous employers) straight up act like street hoodlums, and I’m embarrassed to say, I’ve seen bar fights as a younger man that were more civil than the vast majority of my customers (and employers). And I can also say unequivocally that I wouldn’t work for the vast majority of my customers if you held a gun to my head.
That being said, I can see why young people are work avoidant.
She is right, being a college graduate only means that you are good at being a suck up/good employee "prospect". Which means that you MIGHT be at best a government employee or a mid management suck up. If ever we require professors to actually have worked in the real world, that might change. There are actually a very few small private colleges that do that, but it is very difficult to find them. And it might change at any time if a new administrator is hired.
Here at the FERIT university in Osijek, most professors are actually working in the real world. Professor Ivan Aleksi (who teaches Computer Architecture) manages databases for some company (I don't know which), professors Dražen Balen (who teaches Operating Systems) and Alfonso Baumgartner (who teaches Algorithms and Data Structures) work in a bank...
Real world experience should definitely be a requirement in order to teach a subject. Just as it is in a trade school. They wouldn't dream of having aspiring plumbers being taught by someone who hasn't worked at the actual trade
I don't know what college you went to but all of my professors had real world experience. Granted that experience was centered around their field and not a "typical" job; e.g. history professor worked at several museums and wrote a book on the topic he specialized in.
Shoutout to ReasonTV: i remember that 4.5 years ago, i watched a video that you guys posted, where the video was about what type of college degree one should take. The core of the video came down to chosing based upon your degree leading you into a 'craft'. I don't know exactly what the titel of the video was (in case someone does, please share
In my opinion, College no longer teaches you to think ‘outside of the box’. I didn’t finish community college due to the increasing out-of-pocket costs and this was back in 2007! I soon figured out other paths to follow my career by joining the workforce outright. What I soon learned is that my college educated colleagues were more likely to quit, more likely to be stressed, and more likely to be afraid of thinking on their feet when presented with a problem. Now, I earn a six figure salary with little to no debt. There are no shortcuts to success only alternate paths.
I went straight to work after highschool. Had a few jobs and found one I liked. I am now close to finishing up my degree but constantly feel that school is not even close to what the job is. Definitely don't teach you to think on your feet but a job does. My field is technical and requires a degree to really have all doors open, but definitely feel that you can learn most of it on the job.
*there _are_ no
when did college ever teach you to think outside of the box? I went to college from 1991-1994. They teach you about the subject which you take classes for.
@@royharper2003 Must’ve been a lot more straight-forward back then because when I went in 2007-2009, they made me take extra classes as a pre-requisite to another. I learned to think critically and outside the box. You pretty much had to if you majored in anything like Civil Engineering like I did.
not from US but amongst my friend group im literally the only one not going to college. Its finances but also.. i can just learn programming online.
I have a degree in computer science and most of what I use day to day is stuff I picked up at my student job position as a programmer. Unless you are going to work as an academic or are exceptionally gifted you are not going to work at the level of theory that is tought in most CS degrees.
I'm a 30 year programmer. You can indeed learn coding online but it will greatly help your upward mobility to learn a lot of stuff in school that dovetails with the coding. For example, I took advanced accounting and it made it possible for me to understand and solve complex business problems using coding
@@---...---...---...---... thanks for sharing. Im just an average web dev working freelance, never touching low level and theory stuff. Whilst i am fascinated by how transistors work, how computers handle memory, etc.. I cant imagine sitting in a calculus class that is understandably required for a cs degree without being half awake
@@LynyrdSkynyrd.4Ever Thanks for sharing 🙏
@@MasayaShida We didn't even cover the low level stuff at any depth, it was much more of an exercise in applied mathematics with an emphasis on the math and only sparingly on the application of it. We only had a couple of temporary professors with any real industry experience and unsurprisingly those were the most interesting courses.
There are many reasons to go to college if you are getting a specialized degree in a field like engineering, nursing, etc., but unfortunately a lot of people go to college with no idea what to study. Eventually, they leave with a worthless underwater basket weaving degree, and the only thing to really show for it is significant debt, which they expect the rest of us to subsidize thanks to being conditioned by their professors that they are victims.
Even if they do get a specialized degree like an attorney, they're often unprepared for how to apply their knowledge or the realities of advancing their career.
College is concerned with only moving you to the next degree.
Took the words right out of my mouth
@@TheRisky9 There is definitely a learning curve that comes with almost any college student entering a given profession, unless they've had the opportunity to complete internships or apprenticeships. It's also true that advancing their career depends more on the individual and his and her motivation to do so.
Problem is the specialized stuff can be learned in 2-3 years and less debt but you have to take useless history/government/social science classes to get your degree.
@@edd542 I agree that the need to complete courses outside the bounds of the focus area makes little sense other than to pad the bill
I'm in my 2nd year in college and I feel like it's not teaching me something I need to know in the real world. I'm concerning putting school on pause after i'm done my with fall semester
Most of the decline in enrollment is men, with far fewer opportunities and much less financial assistance compared to women. 62% of college students are female. That trend will continue. Colleges are offering less and less for men.
University is best for those who are academically inclined. For all who are looking to learn stuff to do a given profession, a professional school would be much better, one focused on practice with a touch of academics. Nearly everything they teach you in school is never used in practice.
Really? Nothing taught in college for accounting or engineering or actuarial science or biology and I could go on but your statement is kinf of ridiculous since a professional school is typically college where people learn to do what they want their profession to be.
@@need-money-for-porsche Yes, I had to take other classes that were unrelated to my degree as well. There are specific schools for those careers, as well as others, you mention.
Was is the term.
It’s ridiculous there’s so many jobs require a college degree that don’t need it
The issue is that the higher education industry is the most powerful industry in the country. They've been given the exclusive right to sell entrance into the middle class, and that's the problem.
the editing on this video is really good
There are a lot of courses and degrees taught in college that is a waste of time and money.
The best degrees and courses are STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math) and medical. These jobs pay the most and are in high demand.
Courses that deal with Art, Education, Criminal Justice, Social Work, Food Preparation are low paying jobs. I wouldn't recommend the other fields because you will end up with a low paying job and $100,000 or more in student loans.
If you want these skills then pay $50 to learn them from Skill Share, Watch TH-cam, or Udemy. You can learn a lot from these places.
But before you decide to go into a field you should talk to people in that field or people who went to college and graduated in the field you want to do. I learned by doing this that the Majority of Criminal Justice majors go on to be prison guards. I also found out that unless you graduate in the top 5% of your law studies then the chance of being a practicing lawyer is about zero because law schools graduate about 10 times the amount of new lawyers each year and unless you have family or connections already in a law firm you won't make it or you will end up as a public defender and having to work hundreds of cases a week and you will work from 6am to 10 pm almost every day of the week.
The kind of doctor who "figured it out on his own" is definitely the one I want to go to. Same thing with the engineer who designed the bridge that I'm driving over. Obviously I'm being sarcastic, and I understand that a degree in something like "general communications" is not really worth what you pay for it. Nevertheless, a degree in a STEM or medical field 100% is. They definitely take work to get, but the cost of this type of degree basically amounts to buying a ticket to the upper middle class.
What you don't know is that most doctors figure things out on their own - that is effectively what their job entails. Also, in architecture, the engineer isn't usually the one designing the bridge. That is usually left to draftsmen and the engineer just signs off on it. 99% of draftsmen have an Associate's degree.
I hope this channel gives this qt3.14 more segments
Yeah college is not always going to pay off unless you go into healthcare. What we need to do is help kids with a comprehensive plan that involves colleges, trades, or military. Overall you need to have a plan.
I agree that we should definitely do more to allow students/young people to have a more realistic view of the options available to them following high school in order to decrease drop out rates and needless student debt. However, almost every degree will pay itself off over the course of an average persons career no matter the major as long as it's from an accredited institution. It's worth noting, that figure is if they paid for college without any financial aid, and 42% of students graduate with no debt from college.
STEM degree
@@deaddevil7 I wanna say yes but here is the problem for the stem field the job demands you constantly update your skills. And getting laid off is more prevalent because younger workers are cheaper.
@@Supreme-gu1jz if layoffs are about cutting costs, it makes sense to cut those that have higher compensation, which usually isn't the case for newcomers.
From what we have seen from the pandemic even healthcare doesn't pay enough lol
College education does not guarantee you a job. A specialized skill does.
Graduated with a film degree. First job out of college was as an editor at a news station for which it was not needed. My second job was as a fundraiser for which it was not needed. Most recently I got offered to work under a mayor/city commissioner for which I turned down for personal reasons, but still didn't need a degree for. Above all - it's character and what you know.
Yeah but you got a /film/ degree. Who goes into a film degree saying "I want high job security because there's sooooo many films being produced?"
@@donaldbowler4514 the point is that for my jobs that weren’t film related a degree wasn’t even necessary
I feel like one of the biggest problems among undergrads is that they see their program as a series of checklist required in order to complete, rather than classes leading to opportunities for students to expand their understanding of a subject and present new pathways they can take within their field. I also think undergrads tend to see the value in a class based on the content, rather than the skills it teaches them and how those skills can be applied to their field. I know many will argue that you can learn these skills elsewhere in the real world, but for a majority of people the presence of an extremely qualified expert with decades of experience to guide them and their understanding will allow a student gain a much greater understanding of a topic, field, or skill in a shorter time.
This is so true, even in the "needs a degree" fields like engineering and law. The school I attend requires computer science students to spend thousands of dollars in tuition studying topics such as the manufacturing of CPUs, which are completely irrelevant to their programming skills.
I’m about to graduate college and I have a job lined up based on what I learned in school, as opposed to just showing that I can make it to the finish line. I think that it really depends on what a person is majoring in. No one needs to hire a person who majored in Poetry or anything ending in “studies”.
Also I think the drop in enrollment is because people don’t like to do online school. I think it will probably go back up.
I would agree that there are some jobs that absolutely need college degrees for. For example, the medical field, or the engineering field. There's a lot to both that you can't really grasp with just a HSD, and you need specialized training to succeed in. But you shouldn't need a CD to push a broom, or turn a wrench.
@@Tank50us absolutely
I went to school for nuclear engineering and am a reactor engineer. I honestly think I could have done my job with just a high school diploma because of the 2 year training process I have to go through before I am considered qualified. And most of the stuff I learned about my job was barely mentioned in college. If they would have taken me on for 30k a year to see if I can get past training, then jump my salary to what it is today once I'm qualified and make me sign on for 3 years post qualification, I wouldn't be in debt, they would have an easier time hiring people, and I would make more money sooner in my life.
Excellent essay! Thank you!
The idea that college is a good investment is just an opinion.
The thing is that industry compains about not enough engineers going to school, yet working as an engineer since 2013 and everytime there was a hickup we were out the door with layoffs. Now they are finally willing to pay market rate. I always ask market rate plus 15% or more because these companies have been screwing over people with legit degrees for years. Part of the issue was people who should have retired stuck around because of the 2008 housing crisis
It also doesn't talk about type of degrees. I need my degree to be doctor. You don't need a degree to go gender/race studies, and it doesn't prepare you to do anything productive.
Don't all businesses require some sort of college, or else they won't even look at your resume?
I was told that you need a college degree in order to get your foot in the door of your career. Is this still true?
What percentage of people on the staff of Reason magazine *don't* have college degrees?
Hey, I'm a curious foreigner, does anyone know the answer to this: How difficult it would be, for a person that has double citizenship in Europe, or Canada/Australia, to validate their diploma in the USA??
Let's just say they were born in the USA, but their parents were from Europe, and that kid can go to university for free in any country from Europe, how hard is it to practice, let's say engineering, architecture or biomedicine, in USA. Is it worth it??? or it's virtually impossible???
College is a waste of your time, unless you were a straight A student or you really like STEM.
A friend told me he knew a guy that went to college for Egyptology and couldn't get a job. That guy ended up pay more money to get a masters to then try applying to teach the same thing that couldn't land him a job. Sounds more like a pyramid scheme.
Or, what if you just like it and you can leverage the sexual opportunities into a quality union. It isn’t what it used to be. We used to learn to value the bigger universe and be discontent with an incomplete understanding.
@@rustynails68 maybe if you're a chick, but goodluck selling that to modern women.
This is a fascinating mishmash of points with some anecdotes of successful people. What is the purpose of the video if it's so maligned by survivorship bias?
"Debt is bad. Don't get educated."
There are two primary elements to wealth: luck and game choice. College isn't just signalling, it's game choice. For many, it's the only thing which spurs them on to be able to self-actualize and conceptualize the world in economic terms. Without that it is a deeply frought, emotional experience.
Yea I'm struggling to find the real point of this video. Unless your career does not require education, postsecondary is a great idea. The declining attendance is likely cause not many people have a lot of savings after covid. The real way to bring attendance up is to force grants to reduce tuition instead of using them to pay for amenities and to remove curved grading while we're at it if we're expecting attendance to go up.
Education doesn't come from college, let alone schooling. Education is what you seek, which can come from anywhere. Public schools need to be abolished and Colleges need to fail in order to finally provide the services they're supposed to provide.
@David Black That's a very confident internal view of the world. It seems to imply that people are aware of this 'seeking' you envision. Education is awareness of the self in society, an ability to rise above the notions sold to us arbitrarily on being raised.
Denmark had an issue with public schools, too. So they made their schooling system optional AND free. We're barely equipped to question the role of government as we get steamrolled in our ignorance by powerful, unchecked corporations and sold out politicians.
@@nicolaspowers6668 Wrong. Education is not wisdom- making it nothing more than knowing things. That's a trait anyone with sufficient motivation can achieve without school.
Society is a collection of individuals and nothing more. We are not our traditions, our (cult)ures, or etc. We are more than that.
Depends on what is being sought after college. In STEM fields, a degree and advanced degree are pretty much required to do anything serious. For straight software engineering, you could learn on the job or online and likely get hired somewhere. Trades are usually learned and then an apprenticeship ensues. It's the acting, dance, history majors that basically bring zero to the table, but then again, this cohort are usually from wealthy families where money and job prospects mean very little.
You left out the all important gender studies degree
@@LynyrdSkynyrd.4Ever Gender studies, like where women get a degree that doesn't lead to a job and where they learn why women make less money than men because they major in gender studies?
And those history majors that go into education start off with making $70K a year at the community college level in my state. And once they obtain their Masters, and PhD it all just increases from there.
It's great lmao.... When a company loses money Because of lack clients what do they do? Hike costs.
Honestly I get it, while I did go to college, and I do currently have a good paying job. I'm not using anything I learned in the college at all, it was a waste of time and money. I do think the college system could be a good deal but not in it's current state. the fact that you don't even need to pick a major until half way though your degree to me speaks of how much waste is in the course planner. Also in the faster moving fields where once you get beyond the core fundamentals what you really need to know changes often, and also is quite tied to what part of that field you want. Which is another thing most colleges seem to fail to grasp that there isn't a one size fits all for everyone who's in that field and so the set of skills you need to have are quite different though they could all be classified as doing the same thing.. computer science, is way to broad of a thing heck even Software Engineering is rather broad. you got people working on AI, to automation, to Video games, to websites, databases administration, to IoT. while there are common threads, and there is some overlap between them all, the programing languages and many of the methodology's that one needs to know to really excel at each are quite different. but they are all often clumped together in "Computer Science" which in some schools don't even get into any of that but how Computers aid in the Physical, Chemical, or Biological Sciences.
that's the problem with colleges they teach you a lot of stuff but it's not stuff you'll actually us.
I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if my child came back from college talking woke bs.
I imagine you'd feel like that one dad who had a loving relationship with his daughter. Then, after she went to college, she started claiming that he's systematically racist, hurting the planet, something about being a dirty capitalist, the whole nine yards.
Your college-educated child would not be able to afford to get their own place, so they'd move back into your bedroom/garage/basement, but with a lot more debt.
Ah yes, the "college brainwashes your children into being woke!" conspiracy theory.
The Case Against Education is a brilliant book. Must read for sure.
Hopefully by reducing the demand the costs will go down as well.
I went to college to avoid the draft in 1969 I hated it so much I joined the army!
Geez, you must have really hated college.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have gone to trade school, not college. Many tradesmen do eventually make six figure incomes. And besides, these are the people who keep the nation running smoothly. If not for tradesmen, society would collapse.
Because for some reason students are taught to arbitrage the system for what it's worth instead of perfecting their work and finding suitable clients.
Some tradesman do, yes. And most tradesman sacrifice their health in the process. I went to college because I grew up in a family of tradesmen. Nearly all my male relatives had serious health issues by their 40s-50s due to their occupation.
But I bet a lot of people don't like manual labor, especially as they get older. Without a degree, i worked manual labor very physically demanding jobs which at one point landed me in the hopsital. With a degree, i sit behind a computer and earn a werll over 6 figure living.
For STEM degrees, for the most part, it is safe to disregard the video's message.
I skipped college and went straight to being in permanent 'year off to f- around and live on my couch self-educating and seeking adventure at the collapse of civilization for me and mine'
I went to trucking school for 3k 13 years ago. I made 105k last year and what's more spent 10k. I have saved and invested and am a millionaire now
Part of the reason for the rise in tuition is the increase in people going to college. More students require more classes, more instructors, more infrastructure. We need more good paying blue collar jobs to return from China to employ High School graduates in a job that pays a living wage.
College is good investment for the State.
Sleeping in the garage doesn't make u a car.
An illiterate person going to college,
just helps boost this metric.
Gotta get these numbers up folks !
The cost of college keeps going up because they are bloated with administrators.
I learned so much more from Maven Analytics than I did from ODU.
This is what happens with college administration greed.
Going to university is financially irresponsible.
The debt will probably get wiped out. What’s important is whether you’re wasting your time there.
@@martinlutherkingjr.5582 No, the debt will just be converted into government debt, you will still have to pay it as a taxpayer...
@@---...---...---...---... Inflation will be so high it will be worthless. Buy Bitcoin.
your brain is irresponsible
Got a job out of high school, now work is paying for my college to learn data analytics as that's the skill they want. Win Win
They forget small business owners can make more money and be happier.
A College Degree is something you have for the rest of your life and opens doors of opportunity years and years later.
Other comments have pointed out that the college degree ceases to be relevant after a few years. It's just your entry into the job market, that's all.
@@Tzizenorec Hi Tzizenorec, I'm not a College Grad & I'm retired, so I've got a lifetime of experience & first hand knowledge.
I don't care what "Others" may say, I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. From the late 20th Century forward living without a College Degree is to opportunities what a prison record is to a career change - A HUGE STOP SIGN!
Can you become a Trillionaire without a College Degree, Of Course, America is FULL of Self Made Men & Women. But don't think about changing careers when you're 40.
Decided you want to become an Attorney, a CPA, a Teacher, even a member of the Clergy at 40? Not without a College Degree.
I know I'm smart enough to pass any Masters Program you can throw at me, but colleges won't allow me to take those courses until I get a College Degree by going to night school for 8 years. Only then will I have the opportunity to go to night school for another 2 to 4 years to pass the Masters I need for that career change.
So instead of starting my new career at 42, I'll be 50 to 52, having lost 8 to 10 years of income and opportunity from that new career.
Get your College Degree when you're young, so you can benefit from the fruits of your efforts for years to come!
@@Tzizenorec Yes! My experience as well.
I guess it's more important what people enrole for, rather then how many.
Not everyone should go to university. We need people only going for useful skills. I had to go to university because I became an engineer and it worked really well for me, but I wish we had more trades people
Why stay in college?
Why go to night school?
Gonna be different this time.
~Life During Wartime, written by an art school dropout. Very interesting song.
Dang it.....
The root issue comes down to how education is treated in the US. The US sees education as a means to a vocation, but education shouldn't be understood as such. Education should be about broadening your horizon. It should be about discussing ideas about fundamental questions. It ahould be about reading great books, discussing questions about what is justice, learning about our own culture, etc. It is the fact that US education starting from early childhood on is focused on vocation that ultimately is the real issue. So many vocations could be basically apprenticeships. I think that the "useless" things learned in college are ultimately valuable, but bot for vocation-sake. Those "useless" things are valuable for making us better people and arguably for its own sake. Elementary through hogh school should be more liberal arts focused than it currently is. College should also be liberal arts focused. It is only when we as a society agree that education is not vocation training that this problem will be alleviated
I'm definitely college at all bec I be dead broke for sure n not making alot for going so, so I just focus what I wanna do, like play guitar/Rock N Roll😎🎸🤙🤘🤟🎤
Trade schools are an exceptional investment in yourself and society
Why is the chatbot 12 years old?
The only actual reason to go to college is to acquire a tangible skill that can not be obtained through on the job apprenticeship. Many study pursuits are a waste of time and money. That Liberal Arts degree will only benefit a select few. Many Junior Colleges offer real skills that can go strait to work or be done while working. EMT's Nursing, Nursing Assistant, C&C, Fire Technology, Law Enforcement, Advanced Auto/Diesel technology, ect... are skill sets that JC's offer and are in very high demand. So unless you are going for a high end profession, Doctor, STEM... you're really just throwing money you don't have into a hole.
i went out of my way to avoid college and i still make 6 figures. I dont owe a cent on college loans.
Will there be a sequel explaining why it's horrible that fewer people are going to college? The reality is that this is a double-edged sword. On one end, this video. On the other end, this trend is a symptom of a larger problem: the fall of our colleges and universities. Anyone else remember why people went to college/universities in the first place? Simply put, it was to further their education. University of: Oxford, Paris, Bologna, Coimbra, Perugia, and much more. Now what we have are glorified daycare institutions for adults that come with the kind of bloat you see in Big Tech. Not to mention there's the lack of manufacturing jobs, which is important because those are the kind of jobs that would be perfect for high school graduates. Heck, even a high school dropout could become financially stable from one of those jobs in a bygone era.
Additionally, the "just get a STEM career" and "just learn to code" mentalities are creating an overspecialization. Of particular note is the fact that coding jobs are set to be replaced by AI.
But doesn't it matter why this trend is occurring? Also, even if college is signaling, and I agree it mostly is, that means workers will suffer in the marketplace from not having that signal, right?
Huh, I've never done an interview, But i have done a little homework, And when I walked on to My new job, The message of which came with Me, (Of course I'm attired appropriately,(homework)), And that message flowed out like this ! My understanding that i start today, A (name) was to show me the obligatory duties, that I will be preforming, and I will go above and beyond in this position, And at anytime please let me know if I need to make adjustments or am overlooking something, I guarantee, you're decision will not disappoint, And any time a thought of Me is not going to work out here, run me off, no hard feelings, run me off now is fine too, any time, not an issue, Your needing a position filled, I'm suited up, Mr.Paul's here and can show me the ropes, And i started that day, and kept to my word, Within a year i had takin on three separate duties including the original one! Moral of the story? I don't do interviews, I do what i went there to do, work !
and how much money do you make and what do you do?
They should lower the working age to 14 so that kids can get more work experience and understand money better going into college and adulthood
College makes sense for broad deep education which you do to be a scholar not a pro working in industry, or for heavy specializations where you really need years of hands on training. Dentist can't practice on TH-cam videos. Architect could maybe get a job as a draft-person with a short course but he won't get to design 20 different buildings (graded by professionals) without 5 year college course. But so many courses are time and money wasted. This includes MBA and some legacy prestige courses which are knowledge based. That knowledge is no longer gated, you can learn it at your own computer. Or you can be an assistant to a high level pro in your target field and apprentice - creating value as you learn instead of consuming it to fund the university.
I agree
Depends on the degree. Say you want to become a doctor or a chemist. Doubt you could do it with a high school diploma.
I was of the last generation that could get a coding gig without a college degree. I'm not sure if that's still possible. Either way, got my first home fully paid at age 34. Even in the early 00's the cost of college raised many red flags, so I decided to rise through the workforce.
Does it matter if it is? Coding's set to be handled by AI.
Government school wasted 12 years of my life. Why would I want to pay them to waste more of it when I don't even know what I want to do?
Didn't you learn to read and write in school? That should come in handy
Been telling friends and family this for many years. Degrees and credentials are simply the result of opportunity (available time and money). The many years spent in school serve more to close one's mind rather than to broaden their horizons. COULD do better, but they're not trying.
IMHO, the narrator is correct, unless the target vocation requires specialized schooling & training. Some of these generalized degrees are a complete waste of time & money. Discussions surrounding this topic are often bereft of personal details, personal habits, mental acuity, organizational skills, sense of urgency, time managment habits, etc. Personally, I think many citizens would personally profit doing a term in military service.
*_TRUST !!_*
Experience and/or education helps. Education is important &a good high school education should be enough for someone to be an independent productive adult.
a god high school education will help someone become a productive adult in fast food.
There is a difference between making and earning money. The salary is whatever, but the few hundred thousand to millions or billions are from elsewhere. Nobody wants to be a wagecuck after college. There are those that work and those that exploit.
Don't start if you can't finish
I think that college will only benefit those that study STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics). I do agree that many college degrees are completely worthless. I am currently working on my Bachelor's Degree majoring in Cybersecurity with a minor in Computer Science. Many of the classes I had to take for my General Education requirements were just a waste of time and my GI Bill. I do think college does benefit those that want to be physicists, engineers, mathematicians, tech innovators, teachers, etc., but the system does need to be reworked and certain majors need to disappear. My older brother has no college degree and he works for a company that fixes farm equipment, he's doing very well for himself. Another older brother of mine has a degree in Engineering and he's also doing very well. I think it really does depend on what kind of degree you go for and what kind of career you want to pursue. Telling high schoolers that college is the only way to make a living is a lie, and telling them that college is a huge waste of money is also a lie. We should really be telling them to consider all their options (both pros and cons). The world will always need doctors and bricklayers.