I consider myself a good sightreader since I worked in an Opera Studio and I work as an accompanying pianist as well. I remember when I had to learn 3 operas in a couple weeks: La boheme, Le nozze di figaro, and I dont' remember the third one. But reading Le nozze in barenreiter version, was insane, especially the overture it was a pain in ... and also some other challenging arias from the other acts. I really consider this a very good test for sightreaders. I only knew one pianist, a collegue, who played the overture and the whole score as written in this version.
A large part of my life was spent as an instructor of technical and physical skills in an entirely different field. I found that individuals bring their own degree of ability to the table, and what could be a struggle for some was a walk in the park for others. The common thread appeared to be self-confidence.
@@tomarmstrong1281 on my first day of collaborative piano as a college student we each had to sight read in front of the entire class - my living nightmare. It made me get better and improve myself, but I never reached the level of my peers who seemed to be much more fluent in it. Confidence was definitely a factor, stemming from less experience (late bloomer). On the other hand, I never had trouble with memory and could learn music very quickly, something I realized not everyone could do. I’ve found that many students are one or the other, readers or memorizers, and my theory is that they engage different processes in the brain. Learning to switch between the two willingly rather than just relying on your natural tendencies is a big part in becoming a well-rounded musician.
Absolutely, there are many times when it feels like he’s writing for multiple manuals in the same range, so the hands are constantly crossing over each other. There were many great pianists (Saint-Saens, Liszt, Alkan) who also played the organ well, but Widor was one of the rare organ virtuosos who composed equally fluently for the piano, in a unique voice.
These are some cute novel pieces and definitely very odd to have "male" and "female" categories. I'm also surprised with the simplicity of this music, where the textures are very easy to sightread... though I'd love to browse more of this music! all the music I've had to sight-read for auditions, rehearsals, lessons, etc were significantly more intense than this 😶 and in an exam, it's acceptable to not be brilliant, but in a professional context, people have expectations 😵💫
I think our music education/training has come a long way, but people do regularly make wild demands on pianists as if we are robots. I envy those who have the fluency and confidence to read just about anything on the fly! It’s clear that their standard in these pieces is on fluent modulation and tempo/expression sensitivity rather than difficult textures, and I wonder if the modulations were stranger for pianists of the 1890s than they are to us. Thanks for listening and sharing your thoughts!
The women's piece definitely looks like more of a pig to sight read! The repeated notes in the left hand would definitely throw me. Interesting note re. the little paired hairpin symbols ( < > ) seen e.g. towards the end of the last piece - Seymour Bernstein did a ToneBase Piano video with Ben Laude where he mentions a source (I think one of Fanny Mendelssohn's students), reporting watching Brahms at the piano in rehearsal with an ensemble for one of his own pieces. The source reports that Brahms reliably interpreted the paired hairpin symbols not as dynamics but as rubato instructions, and he'd slow right down for them. Bernstein thinks this was common throughout music in Europe in the Romantic period. He shows examples in Chopin where the hairpins are present in conjunction with written-out dynamics markings like cresc. and dim. (and I've found more in Brahms, Schubert, etc.) in such a way as makes no sense if the hairpins also indicate dynamics. I've been making a point of observing and trying this out and it honestly works very well indeed.
Thanks for the detailed and interesting comment, I didn’t know about that. It certainly sounds plausible to me though perhaps varied from composer to composer. Widor had a habit of writing ritdardando, ad libitum, and especially “a piacere” almost side-by-side in much of his music. They really make you think about context and what exactly he wanted in each case. A piacere seemed to be Widor’s personal way of indicating rubato, so I wonder if Brahms interpreted hairpins as such because that’s how he read them, a style of interpretation/notation as such. Perhaps there is a 19th century method book that makes reference to the meaning of hairpins that is different from our own. Interesting to ponder!
Always wishing I had the attention span to spruce up my sightreading chops. More of an improviser - but I take time to write down good shells of ideas in hopes to refine them and expand them someday...
Why rely on your future self to pick up the material and do something with it? Seems unlikely, if I know anything about people. I think you'd be more likely to finish them if you took time to sit down and deliberately work on them right now, even if only for 20 minutes or so. If you in the now won't be bothered to do it, why will future you?
The men's piece has thicker textures and more Russian feel. It feels a little like Medtner. The women's piece feels more Frenchy pastoral, with interesting harmonic modulations. It's definitely more horizontal than the men's. I personally think the men's sounds more fun, but I doubt I could make it sound as fun when sightreading!
Tight thirds with lots of accidentals is something that requires a lot of training and practice to pull off. Both pieces are beautiful but the ladies had the more difficult task.
Lovely pieces and playing :) I tried to sight read them through my screen -- I think the women's piece was harder. That being said I wouldn't be able to play perfectly like this on the spot 😅
After listening to both pieces, I think that the composition for men has many ornaments and is much more sentimental, more "feminine" according to the canons of what was always thought to characterize women. On the other hand, the piece for women is more decisive, firmer, without so many ornaments, more "masculine." Obviously the intention would be to listen to a man playing a feminine piece and a woman playing a masculine piece, and evaluate the supposed connection with the "other side" of the applicant's sexuality.
Oy, I remember when the judges would count in my tempo for the sightreading portion of my exams. I wonder if the same was done here. These are tricky little pieces.
just one thing I could notice: 4th measure of the Agitato section near the end of women's piece is D-flat, instead it's played natural D here. Beautiful pieces!
Thank you! I took these scans of the original editions from Widor’s complete piano works published by Crescendo Music Publications. I can try uploading them later if there is interest.
This particular exercise was part of a Paris Conservatoire competition, so it would have been an element that students were judged on each year. Most music schools still require similar tests regardless of instrument, but I’d say what makes this one unique is the fact that it was composed specially for this occasion. Most tests nowadays just use old, obscure pieces that students likely won’t know.
Sight reading most definately still exists even for entry exams. You wouldn't believe how many good pianists suck at it. Because they are used to slowly dessiminate a piece hand by hand first and slowly build up muscle memory before playing at speed. So they never really practice trying to play a piece at speed at first sight.
@@Quotenwagnerianer very true, I was that kind of pianist in school. Started late and never practiced sight reading until I was 17ish. Felt like my peers were light years ahead of me, except for memory, which I was really good at (as you explained) because I always relied on it. I got through it and improved but I don’t think I will ever be able to call it a strength of mine.
@@PianoCurio I'm the opposite. I'm good at sight reading almost anything, but slow practice for muscle memory, so that I actually play each note and rhythm as written, is something I have struggled with for years. Now I'm better at it, but I always have this urge to rush ahead and play pieces instead of practicing them first. Of course that leads to all kind of issues, like having to unlearn wrong fingering later.
Hmm. The only difference I know of female players is oftentimes their hand span is smaller (though its a bell curve) other than envisioning a case where they are giving female players some leeway for that fact I have no idea Heckin Awesome playing tho Edit: i read the descripition and now have a better idea of the social environment
Glad the description helped frame it for you! As others have noted, the women’s piece is arguably slightly more difficult. My hunch is that it was for the sake of variety and a holdover of tradition, but who knows.
Men have more testosterone, better hand eye coordination, more of a tendency to divide experience categorically, etc. There are plenty of reasons for why men have and continue to dominate such fields besides just environmental acculturation. It's not fair to have men and women compete together.
@@grantn.9061What "fields" are you referring to exactly? Because if we're talking about musicians, your claim that men "dominate" is absolute hogwash. What on earth testosterone levels would have to do with musical ability is completely beyond me...
Would you have passed the test? Which piece is the better or more challenging one? (see description for more info)
No.
They are both so easy.
@@bartwatts1921 sure bud
I consider myself a good sightreader since I worked in an Opera Studio and I work as an accompanying pianist as well. I remember when I had to learn 3 operas in a couple weeks: La boheme, Le nozze di figaro, and I dont' remember the third one. But reading Le nozze in barenreiter version, was insane, especially the overture it was a pain in ... and also some other challenging arias from the other acts. I really consider this a very good test for sightreaders. I only knew one pianist, a collegue, who played the overture and the whole score as written in this version.
Superb music and excelently played!what a delight!
A large part of my life was spent as an instructor of technical and physical skills in an entirely different field. I found that individuals bring their own degree of ability to the table, and what could be a struggle for some was a walk in the park for others. The common thread appeared to be self-confidence.
@@tomarmstrong1281 on my first day of collaborative piano as a college student we each had to sight read in front of the entire class - my living nightmare. It made me get better and improve myself, but I never reached the level of my peers who seemed to be much more fluent in it. Confidence was definitely a factor, stemming from less experience (late bloomer).
On the other hand, I never had trouble with memory and could learn music very quickly, something I realized not everyone could do. I’ve found that many students are one or the other, readers or memorizers, and my theory is that they engage different processes in the brain. Learning to switch between the two willingly rather than just relying on your natural tendencies is a big part in becoming a well-rounded musician.
what a delightful gem!
I recently started to get into widors piano music, tbh he has a nice way with counterpoint. I assume his mastery of organ precedes it.
Absolutely, there are many times when it feels like he’s writing for multiple manuals in the same range, so the hands are constantly crossing over each other. There were many great pianists (Saint-Saens, Liszt, Alkan) who also played the organ well, but Widor was one of the rare organ virtuosos who composed equally fluently for the piano, in a unique voice.
@@PianoCurio indeed
These are some cute novel pieces and definitely very odd to have "male" and "female" categories. I'm also surprised with the simplicity of this music, where the textures are very easy to sightread... though I'd love to browse more of this music! all the music I've had to sight-read for auditions, rehearsals, lessons, etc were significantly more intense than this 😶 and in an exam, it's acceptable to not be brilliant, but in a professional context, people have expectations 😵💫
I think our music education/training has come a long way, but people do regularly make wild demands on pianists as if we are robots. I envy those who have the fluency and confidence to read just about anything on the fly!
It’s clear that their standard in these pieces is on fluent modulation and tempo/expression sensitivity rather than difficult textures, and I wonder if the modulations were stranger for pianists of the 1890s than they are to us. Thanks for listening and sharing your thoughts!
The women's piece definitely looks like more of a pig to sight read! The repeated notes in the left hand would definitely throw me. Interesting note re. the little paired hairpin symbols ( < > ) seen e.g. towards the end of the last piece - Seymour Bernstein did a ToneBase Piano video with Ben Laude where he mentions a source (I think one of Fanny Mendelssohn's students), reporting watching Brahms at the piano in rehearsal with an ensemble for one of his own pieces. The source reports that Brahms reliably interpreted the paired hairpin symbols not as dynamics but as rubato instructions, and he'd slow right down for them. Bernstein thinks this was common throughout music in Europe in the Romantic period. He shows examples in Chopin where the hairpins are present in conjunction with written-out dynamics markings like cresc. and dim. (and I've found more in Brahms, Schubert, etc.) in such a way as makes no sense if the hairpins also indicate dynamics. I've been making a point of observing and trying this out and it honestly works very well indeed.
Thanks for the detailed and interesting comment, I didn’t know about that. It certainly sounds plausible to me though perhaps varied from composer to composer. Widor had a habit of writing ritdardando, ad libitum, and especially “a piacere” almost side-by-side in much of his music. They really make you think about context and what exactly he wanted in each case. A piacere seemed to be Widor’s personal way of indicating rubato, so I wonder if Brahms interpreted hairpins as such because that’s how he read them, a style of interpretation/notation as such. Perhaps there is a 19th century method book that makes reference to the meaning of hairpins that is different from our own. Interesting to ponder!
Always wishing I had the attention span to spruce up my sightreading chops. More of an improviser - but I take time to write down good shells of ideas in hopes to refine them and expand them someday...
Why rely on your future self to pick up the material and do something with it? Seems unlikely, if I know anything about people. I think you'd be more likely to finish them if you took time to sit down and deliberately work on them right now, even if only for 20 minutes or so. If you in the now won't be bothered to do it, why will future you?
The men's piece has thicker textures and more Russian feel. It feels a little like Medtner. The women's piece feels more Frenchy pastoral, with interesting harmonic modulations. It's definitely more horizontal than the men's.
I personally think the men's sounds more fun, but I doubt I could make it sound as fun when sightreading!
Tight thirds with lots of accidentals is something that requires a lot of training and practice to pull off. Both pieces are beautiful but the ladies had the more difficult task.
Good point, it’s an eye test as well as a music test. Those close corners can easily make an inexperienced player panic and go into guessing mode.
Lovely pieces and playing :)
I tried to sight read them through my screen -- I think the women's piece was harder. That being said I wouldn't be able to play perfectly like this on the spot 😅
After listening to both pieces, I think that the composition for men has many ornaments and is much more sentimental, more "feminine" according to the canons of what was always thought to characterize women. On the other hand, the piece for women is more decisive, firmer, without so many ornaments, more "masculine."
Obviously the intention would be to listen to a man playing a feminine piece and a woman playing a masculine piece, and evaluate the supposed connection with the "other side" of the applicant's sexuality.
Oy, I remember when the judges would count in my tempo for the sightreading portion of my exams. I wonder if the same was done here. These are tricky little pieces.
just one thing I could notice: 4th measure of the Agitato section near the end of women's piece is D-flat, instead it's played natural D here.
Beautiful pieces!
Oops! Good catch 👍
Beautiful playing, congratulations! How can I find the sheet music for both pieces? Just looked in IMSLP but couldn't find it there...
Thank you! I took these scans of the original editions from Widor’s complete piano works published by Crescendo Music Publications. I can try uploading them later if there is interest.
I would passed, I think (even if maybe with a middle good mark).
But was this sight-reading mandatory for piano exams? Does it still exist?
This particular exercise was part of a Paris Conservatoire competition, so it would have been an element that students were judged on each year. Most music schools still require similar tests regardless of instrument, but I’d say what makes this one unique is the fact that it was composed specially for this occasion. Most tests nowadays just use old, obscure pieces that students likely won’t know.
@PianoCurio ok thanks for the answer
Sight reading most definately still exists even for entry exams. You wouldn't believe how many good pianists suck at it. Because they are used to slowly dessiminate a piece hand by hand first and slowly build up muscle memory before playing at speed. So they never really practice trying to play a piece at speed at first sight.
@@Quotenwagnerianer very true, I was that kind of pianist in school. Started late and never practiced sight reading until I was 17ish. Felt like my peers were light years ahead of me, except for memory, which I was really good at (as you explained) because I always relied on it. I got through it and improved but I don’t think I will ever be able to call it a strength of mine.
@@PianoCurio I'm the opposite. I'm good at sight reading almost anything, but slow practice for muscle memory, so that I actually play each note and rhythm as written, is something I have struggled with for years.
Now I'm better at it, but I always have this urge to rush ahead and play pieces instead of practicing them first.
Of course that leads to all kind of issues, like having to unlearn wrong fingering later.
Were you sightreading the pieces? ;)
Nope! I cheated after failing many times 🤫
@@PianoCurio Beautiful playing especially the first piece
Thank you!
I noticed that the men’s piece had more syncopation.
Why are you playing both? Are you both a man and a woman? Pick one!
I was not expecting this comment hahah
LMAOOOOO
Lol!! 🤣
Genderfluid moment
How do you know who played what.....😊. Anyway your question is stupid . It was about level.
Who is the pianist ?
Moi
Haha compared to what we have today this is a piece of cake, both men & women's
Hmm. The only difference I know of female players is oftentimes their hand span is smaller (though its a bell curve) other than envisioning a case where they are giving female players some leeway for that fact I have no idea
Heckin Awesome playing tho
Edit: i read the descripition and now have a better idea of the social environment
Glad the description helped frame it for you! As others have noted, the women’s piece is arguably slightly more difficult. My hunch is that it was for the sake of variety and a holdover of tradition, but who knows.
Men have more testosterone, better hand eye coordination, more of a tendency to divide experience categorically, etc. There are plenty of reasons for why men have and continue to dominate such fields besides just environmental acculturation. It's not fair to have men and women compete together.
@@grantn.9061 you’re saying it’s not fair to have them compete in sight reading the same music?
@@grantn.9061What "fields" are you referring to exactly? Because if we're talking about musicians, your claim that men "dominate" is absolute hogwash.
What on earth testosterone levels would have to do with musical ability is completely beyond me...
I don’t think either is particularly difficult to sight read.
Both are fairly easy but I'd say the woman's is generally harder
It always is
Actually I think the women's is easier
@@ensiehsafary7633 Why do you think so ?
I don’t believe that was really played at the correct tempo. A real allegro and agitato would be more difficult.
They are both not so easy as they may seam.
Both of these woule be a cakewalk for me
At bar 6 it would be b flat...