MCU has been boring since Infinity War. They've just been milking the normies of their money who don't care about plot or story and just want to see superhero.
Yes. This train was running out of steam, and also burnout is occuring. It's like sci-fi movies in the 50s and 60s, consumers getting tired of the same schtick. I was done with it by the 2nd Avengers movie.
@@Boogie_the_cat I never was really a big fan of the first Avengers movie, or most MCU movies, to be honest. I think the only movies I like are the Iron Man or Captain America focused movies. The only way Marvel can salvage the brand is if they get rid of the stupid and cheesy humor in their films. They need to release a dark film, that feels like it has real stakes. A film that doesn't connect to the other movies, or relies on cameos to get audiences to come see it. A film that is a faithful adaptation of the comics. Maybe an Xmen movie that has a more mature and dark tone- similar to The Watchmen movie.
@@RetroFritoyes, which makes him a nerd and should be taunted for such. He probably needs to touch grass lol, probably got upset when they don't follow the comics entirely.
i know you're committed to only discussing the most important topics like.... the MCU. but when can we expect a video or statement regarding yer buddy Jirard?
Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at this point, I was satisfied enough with Endgame's conclusion that I honestly wouldn't mind if *that* was the end of MCU right there So I ain't mourning too hard about this franchise that things are falling apart
@Zanidan please you can't even define woke. Just say it's something you don't like or agree with because frankly in the end it's your opinion. A stupid one but yours.
They have one coming up already, Deadpool. I loved Fox's X-Men Universe so I hope they keep some of it intact and don't reboot/delete everything with Deadpool 3 it's possible though with all the time travel / alternate universe thingies. It's reported that Deadpool will be the new cameo character on all future MCU movies so the future will be very interesting for the mutants I guess...or hope. MCU is now mostly pure boredom besides Loki series. Spiderman is Sony property and is a different beast entirely.
It won't change anything. What they need to do is get the focus back on quality and not just serve folks with slop, thinking we will gobble it up. People are much smarter than that nowadays. The Loki series proves that the MCU doesn't need to provide anything fancy. Just great acting, and a great storyline are all that's necessary.
@@unish25 exactly on point! Quality over quantity any day! They cannot expect people to watch 10 tv-series and all the possible movies to see what happens next chapter in cinema. They thought they could get away with anything that is thrown out there.
Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer, XMen, Spiderman; there are so many amazing stories that are self contained (or cross paths with one or the other) but kneecapping which characters or stories get told based on rights holders is really killing it. How many people faithfully read Captain Marvel comics? It’s hard to capture an audience that never existed
How many people read FF, X-Men & Spider-Man comics? The best selling issues of ASM this century sold about 500,000 units. If Disney was relying on CB readers for their cinema audience, the MCU would have been one film which tanked. You mentioned Captain Marvel - something which a select group of weird men on the internet use as an example of why Disney is ruining the MCU. The first Captain Marvel film’s gross was over $1bn - hundreds of millions more than any X-Men film (incl Deadpool) and roughly the same as ALL the three FF films combined (even allowing for inflation). The MCU is oversaturated and desperately needing a break and a reboot. The issue isn’t the characters upon which they’re basing films (no-one outside of comic book fans gave a shit about Iron Man pre-2008), nor of diversification, nor of a lack of adherence to the original CBs upon which they’re based. The audience is bored.
@@markglendinning3956 stop pretending Captain Marvel is a good character or has a massive audience that can compare to Spidey or Batman. The movie made a billion because it was sandwiched between two massive Avengers movies and we were told she was important. More men went to see Captain Marvel than women even though the character sucks ass. Stop making excuses.
It's kind of the same problem the comic Industry has, there aren't any one shot stories anymore, everything has to lead into a much grander super event that ties like 5 different comic series with their own bullshit going on, I haven't tuned into comics for a few years now so Idk if this problem is as big. It can also be that movies are a different medium than comics. My brother saw guardians of the galaxy, because he likes the guardians, he didn't see the other movies cause he doesn't care about the avengers, or Loki, or Ms. Marvels or moon knight, many movie goers aren't hardcore comics fans, many people just want to see their favorite character. Start doing one shot films, and then maybe lead Into an event later. Don't start trying to make one giant interconnected cinematic universe.
I hate the mentality of people just now turning on them, as if these “movies” haven’t sucked all this time. I don’t know how people paid money to see the same thing over and over for so long.
I've never really cared about superheroes. the only ones I really care about are Spider man and batman. but saying that the marvel movies before endgame were never good is just insane
There is no reviving a cold, dead carcass like the MCU. The problem is obvious to everyone but the business suits making these decisions: too much of anything is bad.
Marvel alongside Disney as a whole is more interested in pushing DEI, an ESG agendas, an agenda that that is pushing the majority of customers away with their brands, and going against the narrative of making good content that respects the franchises that they have, and instead of focusing on a minute group of people that’ll never make them money
I’m clearly not smart enough to keep up with the multiverse. I can only really keep track of man turn big and green when angry and man has cool metal claws and heals quickly.
Hard disagree with recasting, the issue is these actors made the characters. People like Tony Stark not because he's a cool tech genius, they like him because it's Robert Downy Jr being a charismatic smug asshole. There are some roles that are defined by the actor. It's why you can't recast Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow, or Doc Brown. Would you go to see a Back to the Future sequel without Christopher Llyod?
@@ThisisCitrus not really all the time, it happens sure but it depends on how iconic the roll is. Also I don't think the Witcher Recast is going to work.
@@Azuris190 I mean it can work but the character has to be kind of generic. Take Sparticus for example. There they had to replace the main character but it worked because well... its not that interesting of a character.
@@ShadyPlatinum777 I dont think its played out. I really just think they make the movies bad and uninteresting on purpose. Like, if the marvels was more like a dbz episode it would be entertaining.
Nerdrotic said it best about the M-she-U: These studios used to make movies for boys that girls liked, now they make movies for girls that nobody likes"
"They weren't gonna put her into Endgame originally, but it(Cpt Marvel) did so well they put her in"..... HUH? You're telling me they pivotted and executed on that in a single month? Also, a big part of the marketing message for Cpt Marvel was "Oh she is gonna be a big deal in Endgame", Endgame was the carrot on the stick to push ppl to go see Cpt Marvel. What a ridiculous thing you pulled out of your ass there, Pat. Seriously, what the hell, man?
I remember reading an interview with either the writers or a producer saying captain Marvel was always going to be in endgame, I think the issue they had was that they didn’t know what to do with the character considering the powers she has. Hence her being written off for most of endgame going away to help other planets. So yeah inserting captain marvel into the film a month in advance is a bit of a stretch 😅.
@carruthers100 Yeah, I never said he was wrong about how long before they weren't sure how to out her in there, but the majority of the statement I was critiquing was still bogus for the reasons I stated. It's fair that we're some years removed and memory is never perfect for everything though, maybe I should have gone easier on him for this.
@carruthers100that I do agree with. “Other planets don’t have the avengers…”. In hindsight, it’s been a weird character to introduce given the almost infinite power she has. She could have been a good introduction in a multiverse movie being pulled from another universe which is full of super powered people. I dunno. I think she’s done considering the Marvels reception and performance. (I have seen it, didn’t think much of it, wasn’t god awful but wasn’t that good)
Here’s the fix: Use the multiverse idea to give us Jim Lee’s X-Men in true form. Give us a great Fantastic Four. Work with Sony to give us an Andrew Garfield Spiderman vs. Venom. Bring back Tom Holland’s Spiderman for a team up with the X-Men. In short, less is more. You guys are right, we have Marvel fatigue. Let us breathe before you suffocate us with superheroes.
The yover exploited it to start with, then ran out of idea so went edgy, that ran out of gas, so then the diversity card, that ran out too. Now they're desperate and going with the smallest character no ody ever gave a F about. Blue beetle? Moon knight? Lol
Cmon, guys. The real reason is obvious, but no one wants to say it. Every movie is Charlie’s angels now. Uppity, unlikeable female characters, and ineffectual dufus male characters. Every movie since 2019 has been exactly the same.
The Guardians of the Galaxy were C and D listers too before their movie. Disney is trying to recapture that lighting in a bottle with all these other lesser know characters. At this point maybe it's best to the let the Marvel universe rest for a couple years. No new movies', maybe 1 or two shows. Use that time to create a new game plan. Then in 2029, the 10yr anniversary of End Game start something new.
Get rid of the identity politics, celebs posting their garbage opinion on X, and all the Ghey crap they push and im sure super hero movies will be a hit again
Studios are still trying to replicate the MCU model. Remember when they had that Mummy movie in 2017 they wanted to make a “Dark Universe”? That tanked hard.
Universal already did that with some success with the classic monsters movies from 1930s-50s. Those movies had a shared universe but back then they didn't have anything like MCU to compete with.
That’s not when it started but however m. Night was able to make a decent universe so was the conjuring. So it absolutely works you just can’t have back to back to back crap
I recently stopped reading batman which was the last of the d.c comics I read, and I stopped marvel years ago, but I read for decades. I am burned out with the movies, however have enjoyed the animated features over the years. I can see why Manga is talking over
Last one I watched was Thor love and thunder, but I truly should of have stopped watching at Captain America 3 because he's really the only marvel character I cared for.
Marvel shot themselves in the foot by alienating James Gunn. IMHO, the _Guardians of the Galaxy_ movies are the best movies the MCU produced--by a wide margin in most cases. And at one point Gunn was helping on some level with all things MCU. Then that subhuman turd, Mike Cernovich, got mad at Gunn because Gunn was always shitting on the Orange Menace, on Twitter. So knowing Disney was run by a bunch of feckless idiots, Cernovich dug up some old tweets and got Gunn fired. So basically, Disney let an absolute slimeball of a human being act as a pro bono, politically motivated HR guy, and jettisoned their best director. Disney realized their mistake and rehired him. But who's going to stay with a company where any 4Chan-loving chud on Twitter can get you fired? So Gunn finished his Guardians trilogy, then Warner Bros. swooped in and gave Gunn the keys to the castle for the DC comics movies. That's not all that's wrong with the MCU, but I think the way they treated Gunn was a mortal (self-inflicted) wound.
Both commentators and Disney itself come up with every excuse except the most obvious. Marvel has a problem and I don't think its primarily fatigue, too large of investment, streaming issues, or people not caring about C list characters. The main problem is QUALITY. The quality of writing and effects and evident lack of planning for the future have caused distrust in the brand and bad word of mouth so people stopped going. If it had been planned out and written as well as past installments, it wouldn't have lost as much momentum.
I actually feel bad for Ian and Pat, they won't bring up the elephant in the room, that a 1000 other podcasts have....it's almost like they go out of their way to avoid what everyone knows has ruined the MCU. Oh well. I guess bliss works on the stupid.
My issue with the MCU, is the streaming series itself. . Because it technically did have shows before the Marvel Studio shows took place, however they did not impact or affected the original MCU timeline, it was its own thing. . But now, to understand a movie from MCU, you have to see a show from MCU, unlike a great nod of Daredevil from Spider-Man No Where Home. . But as Ian said, the last movie I saw was Dr. Strange, I did watch Moon Knight, but I got tired after that. . .
I think if The Marvels is any indication, it looks like the X-Men in the MCU is going to be pulled from a parallel universe so maybe they'll pull an alternate Iron Man and Cap from a different universe as well. Eventually I think this multiverse saga is going to end with them repairing the multiverse madness by merging them together to create a prime universe.
Yeah. But the problem was focusing on the multiverse. They could have made a single movie about the multiverse. They find out it exists and there's a problem that requires some people from one universe get stuck in this one, closing the bridge between universes. They should have saved the concept for when they really run out of ideas. It would have been an easy way to pull those characters into this universe without building everything around the multiverse. It doesn't need to be a big thing unto itself like comics because comics have a lot more time to flesh out concepts. Plus they have mined more concepts into oblivion since they're longer running.
The issue isn't Marvel movies or superhero fatigue. The Issue is we live in a post covvid world. People got use to staying home and watching the movies on Streaming. The total box office for ALL movies is down 4 billion from before coivd. That shows that people aren't going to see ANY movie. Sure you get a Barbie, or Top Gun but if you look at the box office for the top 10 it pales into comparison to the top 10 pre covvid. Even those movies should have done even better. People are ok with waitng a few months until it comes out on streaming. Honestly if they had postponed the Marvels till 2024 and done a proper run up to it, then it probably would have done pretty good. As for fixing do what they already plan to do. Go back to fewer releases. Next year we only get Deadpool 3 and let's be honest that is going to be a hit. Then 2025 release 1 more movie and slowly build your way up until the box office has normalized.
@@OM19_MO79 you miss the point. Look at the top movies of the year. Compare their box office total to 2019 or 2018. You will see movies across the board regardless of genre are way down. It's all movies even new unique movies.
Nah that's a scapegoat. People will go to the theater to see movies they interest them. If no one see's The Marvels, it's because of a lack of interest.
@@SchmergDergen i think you need to take a look at the box office the past few years. Movies that have done horribley at the box office are doing great on streaming.
lol. There's no fixing it. They keep pumping out the same cgi/green screen/joss whedon style flicks and after 30 of these films there's nowhere to go. Except to start over.
1. Multiverse nonsense is cheapening everything. 2. TV shows are creating the reason I stopped reading comics, the dreaded yellow text block: "See Someguy issue 23 pg 3-30." 3. Kang is bad. Loki season 1 version was a joke. Antman version was an idiot, and the post credit scene was embarrassing to someone who has no comic exposure to him.
A few months ago I started remembering Endgame. And I realized that Hulk disappeared from the battle. And that Drax never talked to Thanos. I rewatched it just to see and that never happened. What a waste.
The MCU is going downhill fast. They're introducing too many new characters that aren't developed enough. Nobody cares about these guys the same way as we did with the OG Avengers. Why are they doing Young Avengers? and why are they all females? They can save Phase 5 and 6 with a really strong Fantastic 4 and X-Men movie. Its a huge task but not impossible.
Here is a thought ….. Disney needs to stop pumping this crap out ….. Maybe put out Tron 3, or explore some other ideals …… NOT STAR WARS EITHER…… Hire some new writers, and HAVE SOME ORIGINALITY…… my God, its like people are afraid to explore new ideals these days. …. Smh
I am 52 and grew up reading Cap America. When he whispered Avengets Assemble I knew this was the end to my childhood heroes. The STRONG WOMEN scene with the girl power team you could see the writing on thewall
I completely agree with Ian, I don’t want a million super heroes in one movie. The dark knight trilogy, iron man 1 and 3, Thor, captain American, The man of steel, the 2000s Spider-Man movies and the blade movies all being examples of the pinnacle of super hero movies. These super heroes should be able to carry a movie on their own
Apparently Marvel can't make a new X-Men film with new actors playing the parts until 2025 because all the original actors signed a contract with Fox before the Disney buy. Hence why Patrick Stewart was in MOM, Hugh Jackman being in Deadpool 3 etc.
I had waited to watch all the more modern Marvel movies until I could binge them. Of course I saw the old Hulk movies, Iron Man 1, Raimi Spider-Man trilogy, but I saved the Infinity saga ro experience with my family. Had a great time watching them all in order, but I agree with Pat about Endgame not really being that great. I was actually surprised that I didn't enjoy it as much as Infinity War, Endgame felt barren and not as satisfying as ppl made it out to be. I really think newfound success can be had if these companies like DC just cherrypicked some of the best Batman TAS episodes/arcs, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited series, and just bring it to live action. There's so many amazing yet simple Batman episodes, and JL could've been the fun romp it's supposed to be, about these different heroes finding each other and figuring out how to work together. Plus, if they followed stuff like the JL shows, everyone would already know and love characters like Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl. I think Marvel should do something similar, just keep it simple, stick to the comics, don't worry about politcally updating every little detail, if things like race/gender swapping truly make more sense, then do it, if not, leave it alone.
I think streaming isn't the problem, it should be the solution. Make it one TV show, season by season arcs, each episode focusing on a different character. Then you can also make some episodes that are self contained stories. My main point for this is that you need to watch all of them to keep up anyways, so why not just have it all in a linear order
The Marvels wasn't that bad it's been getting roasted too hard. People are getting too picky is my opinion. Deadpool 3 is gonna bring everyone back though.
23:38 you know what's hilarious? Instead of doing this they made Spider-Man play second fiddle to iron man. Man these studio execs are just dumb, dumb beyond belief
Its easy you STOP MAKING COMIC BOOK MOVIES!!!!!! I know the "hardcore" can't stand it but general audiences are done with the constant flow of comic book movies that require you saw 5 other movies and watched 3 streaming shows on Disney+ or you miss things....Its been blatantly obvious the comic book movie bubble has burst and its done. Each comic book movie has done worse than the one before it... They should have taken atleast a 5 year break after Endgame and with DC who the hell is going to go see a DC movie knowing that its going to set up some sequel that isn't coming because now they're rebooting everything. All the movies that did well in 2023 almost ZERO of them were comic book movies. The only comic book movies that did well were SONY'S Spiderverse and Guardians 3 because Guardians 3 was ending a trilogy and didn't expect you to watch 24 other things before you saw it.
Every Young Avengers character is getting introduced with the other established characters... you just need to watch everything to see them... almost everyone has been on screen already
They're probably going to use the whole alternate universes colliding gimmick to introduce new versions of existing retired characters, on top of using it to bake the former fox characters into canon. We might finally get that Tom Cruise version of Iron Man.
I disagree with Ian. Marvel needs to be connected. However, Marvel needs to tell better stories with their B, C, and D-List characters (like Guardians of the Galaxy). It almost seems like they are just shoehorning in all of these characters to fit a quota. Also Marvel's overall movie formula is kinda stale -- people watch Marvel movies and TV shows basically for the end credits -- to watch the next character "set up" or reveal in the post credits scene. At times pretty prominent villians or rouges gallery characters are used throwaways to be killed off for the purpose of the movie instead of written openly. It's lame stuff. Loki was brilliant in a sense that it was a wholly self contained series that just had great character development for just about every single character featured. Because of it, MCU oki, a known villian (and sometimes anti-hero) has basically catapulted into super stardom that rivals MCU Ironman / Captain America / Thor. Marvel needs more of this in their shows.
I feel like they should of pulled a Star Trek reboot film series and have a separate cinematic universe from the already existing one. Have it focus on big hitters like the X Men and then throw in more interesting lesser known ones. Otherwise it just gets to a point where there is too much to consume in your film series and just make stand alone films. Also Robocop's original promo comics were done by Marvel so Robocop in the MCU make it happen Disney.
No way! I don't want to see a Robocop movie made by Disney. They will probably make it a PG film wish a female lead who makes Robocop look like a moron.
Batman, nobody bats an eyelid when a different batman comes along (other than the choice of actor in some cases), similar deal with Spiderman but on a shorter timescale. MCU is great up until the point actors get too old or don't want to do it any more, people associate that actor with the character too much. Has become a victim of its own success.
"we saw this coming" isn't much of an excuse, you two were like "Oh wow, Moon Knight!" But right now there's a HUGE ASS PROBLEM, There's a Hunger Games film and the lack of promotion is hurting it. That's not to say it's impossible, right now it's a tough market, Disney and Pixar have found clever ways to make money. Elemental hot takes come off like it was a bomb, but Pixar found a way to make it into a hit. And again, that's also a tough sell, an allegory for racism with fire and water, it's not a dancing pop hit movie. I wouldn't say it's all doom and gloom, the industry has changed, and I'm excited for Aquaman 2. Also SpiderVerse 2 made a Billion this past summer.
They need to take Fantastic Four(Spider-Man was introduced in the comics with them) reboot the world and go fresh from there into these other characters. This arc was great because it started with Iron Man one of the OGs in the comics, but it ended with End Game. They need to get back to a heavy hitter then pepper in all these additional characters.
The second dotor strange movie was terrible. The actress that the America Chavez was horrible. She was barely believable as a human being. The pacing was all over the place and it was just plain bad. Still a million times better than Love & Thunder. The Marvels problems went beyond actors and writters strikes and actors being able to promote the movie. The general public just doesn't care for any of the main heroes in The Marvels.
I know its too late to suggest this, but I feel that some of the issues that Marvel is experiencing right now could be sidestepped if they decided to make their main movies and shows animated instead of in live-action. Not only would they not need to worry about actors aging as much, but they would be able to experiment with different visual styles more easily. The big issue is that animation is both expensive and time-consuming...
I love animation more than live action, but you're right, it's more expensive and time consuming. it also wouldn't appeal to the mass market. it's unfortunately much harder to justify making an animated movie. there's a reason a lot of companies who specialized in animation are trying to get into live action
Phase 1 - 4 was pretty much perfect. it's ok to let it go. I'm not mad at Marvel at all, and I don't think you can keep something like the MCU going forever.
The MCU was only ever a novelty, having a connected universe was cool. Now that it’s worn out no one cares anymore. It never had interesting characters to develop or good writing to fall back on. So it’s just run its course and is inevitably dying off.
Hope to hear your take on The Completionist controversy on the next episode
MCU has been boring since Infinity War. They've just been milking the normies of their money who don't care about plot or story and just want to see superhero.
Yes. This train was running out of steam, and also burnout is occuring. It's like sci-fi movies in the 50s and 60s, consumers getting tired of the same schtick.
I was done with it by the 2nd Avengers movie.
@@Boogie_the_cat I never was really a big fan of the first Avengers movie, or most MCU movies, to be honest. I think the only movies I like are the Iron Man or Captain America focused movies. The only way Marvel can salvage the brand is if they get rid of the stupid and cheesy humor in their films. They need to release a dark film, that feels like it has real stakes. A film that doesn't connect to the other movies, or relies on cameos to get audiences to come see it. A film that is a faithful adaptation of the comics. Maybe an Xmen movie that has a more mature and dark tone- similar to The Watchmen movie.
Normies. What a deapicable term
Calling people normies is so incredibly arrogant
@@RetroFritoyes, which makes him a nerd and should be taunted for such. He probably needs to touch grass lol, probably got upset when they don't follow the comics entirely.
how's your buddy the completionist doing?
They are writing boring Stories with boring Characters.
i know you're committed to only discussing the most important topics like.... the MCU. but when can we expect a video or statement regarding yer buddy Jirard?
Here’s me, I haven’t seen a single marvel movie since 2012 lol. Just don’t care at all.
Maybe don't make movies about heroes that no one has ever heard of.....
Or asked to hear from.
Disagree. I never heard of guardians of the galaxy, but I loved it.
People in general don't know what they like until they see it
Me personally, I’m good stopping my MCU experience at Endgame. Maybe even with Spider-man No Way Home.
No way home is probably the only recent one that is worth any merit post endgame
Yeah that's pretty much where I'm at this point, I was satisfied enough with Endgame's conclusion that I honestly wouldn't mind if *that* was the end of MCU right there
So I ain't mourning too hard about this franchise that things are falling apart
It's simple to fix, just cut the woke CRAP!
Stopping your MCU experience at Endgame? So basically you're not a comic fan.
@Zanidan please you can't even define woke.
Just say it's something you don't like or agree with because frankly in the end it's your opinion.
A stupid one but yours.
Disney marvel is on life support. Disney should stop making films for at least 5 years. Let the dust settle and start again from scratch.
Fix it by ending it and never talking about it again.
Yes...this. They're all stupid and redundant. Create something new already Hollywood! Stop recycling 50 year old characters.
Yes, the super hero, especially the Marvel super hero fad, has run it's course.
Inserting Identity Politics into every story and imasculating characters like Nick Fury hasn't won over fans either.
Marvel needs to drop a great X-Men movie. I think people would gravitate to that.
They have one coming up already, Deadpool. I loved Fox's X-Men Universe so I hope they keep some of it intact and don't reboot/delete everything with Deadpool 3 it's possible though with all the time travel / alternate universe thingies. It's reported that Deadpool will be the new cameo character on all future MCU movies so the future will be very interesting for the mutants I guess...or hope. MCU is now mostly pure boredom besides Loki series. Spiderman is Sony property and is a different beast entirely.
It won't change anything. What they need to do is get the focus back on quality and not just serve folks with slop, thinking we will gobble it up. People are much smarter than that nowadays. The Loki series proves that the MCU doesn't need to provide anything fancy. Just great acting, and a great storyline are all that's necessary.
@@unish25 exactly on point! Quality over quantity any day! They cannot expect people to watch 10 tv-series and all the possible movies to see what happens next chapter in cinema. They thought they could get away with anything that is thrown out there.
So long as they don't make it woke.
Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer, XMen, Spiderman; there are so many amazing stories that are self contained (or cross paths with one or the other) but kneecapping which characters or stories get told based on rights holders is really killing it. How many people faithfully read Captain Marvel comics? It’s hard to capture an audience that never existed
How many people read FF, X-Men & Spider-Man comics? The best selling issues of ASM this century sold about 500,000 units. If Disney was relying on CB readers for their cinema audience, the MCU would have been one film which tanked.
You mentioned Captain Marvel - something which a select group of weird men on the internet use as an example of why Disney is ruining the MCU. The first Captain Marvel film’s gross was over $1bn - hundreds of millions more than any X-Men film (incl Deadpool) and roughly the same as ALL the three FF films combined (even allowing for inflation).
The MCU is oversaturated and desperately needing a break and a reboot. The issue isn’t the characters upon which they’re basing films (no-one outside of comic book fans gave a shit about Iron Man pre-2008), nor of diversification, nor of a lack of adherence to the original CBs upon which they’re based. The audience is bored.
@@markglendinning3956 stop pretending Captain Marvel is a good character or has a massive audience that can compare to Spidey or Batman. The movie made a billion because it was sandwiched between two massive Avengers movies and we were told she was important. More men went to see Captain Marvel than women even though the character sucks ass. Stop making excuses.
@@markglendinning3956the captain marvel movie only made that much cause it was sandwiched in between infinity war and end game.
I still say they should bring back the original radioactive man, Dirk Richter.
I keep telling you, he's 73 years old and he's dead.
Maybe don't cast women who use their personalities as forms of birth control?
It's kind of the same problem the comic Industry has, there aren't any one shot stories anymore, everything has to lead into a much grander super event that ties like 5 different comic series with their own bullshit going on, I haven't tuned into comics for a few years now so Idk if this problem is as big. It can also be that movies are a different medium than comics.
My brother saw guardians of the galaxy, because he likes the guardians, he didn't see the other movies cause he doesn't care about the avengers, or Loki, or Ms. Marvels or moon knight, many movie goers aren't hardcore comics fans, many people just want to see their favorite character.
Start doing one shot films, and then maybe lead Into an event later. Don't start trying to make one giant interconnected cinematic universe.
Calling Endgame bad after saying nothing about Captain Marvel is interesting.
It's never a fatigue issue when they actually are quality or include characters people want to see.
I hate the mentality of people just now turning on them, as if these “movies” haven’t sucked all this time. I don’t know how people paid money to see the same thing over and over for so long.
Says the guy with a closed minded mentality. Ironman, all 3 Guardians movies, Winter Soldier, Avengers 1 and 3 are all classics.
@@SchmergDergen Age of Ultron had its good moments tho
@@BeyondDaX but then there's the rest of it 😅
I've never really cared about superheroes. the only ones I really care about are Spider man and batman. but saying that the marvel movies before endgame were never good is just insane
The MCU has been struggling with quality for a while now. And it's just getting worse
End it. And end wokeness too. Problem solved.
There is no reviving a cold, dead carcass like the MCU. The problem is obvious to everyone but the business suits making these decisions: too much of anything is bad.
Woke pandering. That's what is happening. It's not fatigue.
Correct. They pander to what 10% of social media wants and not the actual paying fans.
Marvel alongside Disney as a whole is more interested in pushing DEI, an ESG agendas, an agenda that that is pushing the majority of customers away with their brands, and going against the narrative of making good content that respects the franchises that they have, and instead of focusing on a minute group of people that’ll never make them money
Here we go again, blaming "fatigue" for movies doing badly instead of them actually being bad.
I’m clearly not smart enough to keep up with the multiverse.
I can only really keep track of man turn big and green when angry and man has cool metal claws and heals quickly.
Hard disagree with recasting, the issue is these actors made the characters. People like Tony Stark not because he's a cool tech genius, they like him because it's Robert Downy Jr being a charismatic smug asshole.
There are some roles that are defined by the actor. It's why you can't recast Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow, or Doc Brown. Would you go to see a Back to the Future sequel without Christopher Llyod?
And then we have TV were actors are recast all the time, people going to freak when Geralt isn't Henry Cavil.
@@ThisisCitrus not really all the time, it happens sure but it depends on how iconic the roll is.
Also I don't think the Witcher Recast is going to work.
@@stoves5877 Yeah, i also think the Series will go down.
Change of the Main Character AND Problems with the Directions beforehead, this can't work.
@@Azuris190 I mean it can work but the character has to be kind of generic. Take Sparticus for example. There they had to replace the main character but it worked because well... its not that interesting of a character.
Plus RDJ said he is done with Iron Man. I never found that superhero to be interesting until RDJ played him.
I think this is being over thought. The problem is the movies are bad. If the movies were good, people would be into them.
Bingo and on top of that it’s played out.
@@ShadyPlatinum777 I dont think its played out. I really just think they make the movies bad and uninteresting on purpose. Like, if the marvels was more like a dbz episode it would be entertaining.
Nerdrotic said it best about the M-she-U: These studios used to make movies for boys that girls liked, now they make movies for girls that nobody likes"
Oof.
Not really, dude. Bad stories . Bad cgi. Bad streaming shows
"They weren't gonna put her into Endgame originally, but it(Cpt Marvel) did so well they put her in"..... HUH? You're telling me they pivotted and executed on that in a single month? Also, a big part of the marketing message for Cpt Marvel was "Oh she is gonna be a big deal in Endgame", Endgame was the carrot on the stick to push ppl to go see Cpt Marvel.
What a ridiculous thing you pulled out of your ass there, Pat. Seriously, what the hell, man?
I remember reading an interview with either the writers or a producer saying captain Marvel was always going to be in endgame, I think the issue they had was that they didn’t know what to do with the character considering the powers she has. Hence her being written off for most of endgame going away to help other planets. So yeah inserting captain marvel into the film a month in advance is a bit of a stretch 😅.
@carruthers100 Yeah, I never said he was wrong about how long before they weren't sure how to out her in there, but the majority of the statement I was critiquing was still bogus for the reasons I stated. It's fair that we're some years removed and memory is never perfect for everything though, maybe I should have gone easier on him for this.
@carruthers100that I do agree with. “Other planets don’t have the avengers…”. In hindsight, it’s been a weird character to introduce given the almost infinite power she has. She could have been a good introduction in a multiverse movie being pulled from another universe which is full of super powered people. I dunno. I think she’s done considering the Marvels reception and performance. (I have seen it, didn’t think much of it, wasn’t god awful but wasn’t that good)
How to fix Marvel and Disney's problems? First you have to fire everyone but the Janitorial staff.
yeah... fire the people that made the MCU the most profitable film series in the history of the world.
@@stoves5877 lMy bad it's obvious that your the smart one :P
@@UsserError i'm not suggesting to get rid of the people who helped make the MCU billions
@@stoves5877 It seems that talent has left Marvel. I see no evidence of it now.
@@UsserError cool story.
The MCU died with Tony Stark.
Here’s the fix: Use the multiverse idea to give us Jim Lee’s X-Men in true form. Give us a great Fantastic Four. Work with Sony to give us an Andrew Garfield Spiderman vs. Venom. Bring back Tom Holland’s Spiderman for a team up with the X-Men. In short, less is more. You guys are right, we have Marvel fatigue. Let us breathe before you suffocate us with superheroes.
The yover exploited it to start with, then ran out of idea so went edgy, that ran out of gas, so then the diversity card, that ran out too. Now they're desperate and going with the smallest character no ody ever gave a F about. Blue beetle? Moon knight? Lol
Cmon, guys. The real reason is obvious, but no one wants to say it. Every movie is Charlie’s angels now. Uppity, unlikeable female characters, and ineffectual dufus male characters. Every movie since 2019 has been exactly the same.
The Guardians of the Galaxy were C and D listers too before their movie. Disney is trying to recapture that lighting in a bottle with all these other lesser know characters. At this point maybe it's best to the let the Marvel universe rest for a couple years. No new movies', maybe 1 or two shows. Use that time to create a new game plan. Then in 2029, the 10yr anniversary of End Game start something new.
Get rid of the identity politics, celebs posting their garbage opinion on X, and all the Ghey crap they push and im sure super hero movies will be a hit again
For some reason there's no marvel exhaustion with guardians of the galaxy 3 lol. Captain marvel is just not a big character. Nobody cares for her lol
We don't fix it, we do everything we can to help it die.
Remember: Duffman can never die; only the actors that play him! OH YEAH!
The Pander Stone must be destroyed!! It's the only way to save the MCU.
why fix it? Haven't superhero movies been the big thing for long enough? Why don't we just let it die?
Does Ian's wifes boyfriend use rexMd?
Definitely
Maybe only having 1 MCU movie (and Deadpool for that matter) in 2024 is just what everyone needs.
Marvel? This is so 2019
Studios are still trying to replicate the MCU model. Remember when they had that Mummy movie in 2017 they wanted to make a “Dark Universe”? That tanked hard.
Universal already did that with some success with the classic monsters movies from 1930s-50s. Those movies had a shared universe but back then they didn't have anything like MCU to compete with.
That’s not when it started but however m. Night was able to make a decent universe so was the conjuring. So it absolutely works you just can’t have back to back to back crap
I recently stopped reading batman which was the last of the d.c comics I read, and I stopped marvel years ago, but I read for decades. I am burned out with the movies, however have enjoyed the animated features over the years. I can see why Manga is talking over
Um... Universal Studios Monsters was the 1st cinematic universe 🤦
We were discussing CURRENT cinematic universes.
The universal monster movies were definitely a cinematic universe
Until they get rid of Kathleen Kennedy every Disney IP will suck . That woman is the downfall of Disney and how she's still employed is beyond me.
13:22 I-ron-man ? Really? I Ron?
Last one I watched was Thor love and thunder, but I truly should of have stopped watching at Captain America 3 because he's really the only marvel character I cared for.
Maybe if they stop with shows on characters that many people don't know outside of comic fans
Marvel shot themselves in the foot by alienating James Gunn.
IMHO, the _Guardians of the Galaxy_ movies are the best movies the MCU produced--by a wide margin in most cases. And at one point Gunn was helping on some level with all things MCU. Then that subhuman turd, Mike Cernovich, got mad at Gunn because Gunn was always shitting on the Orange Menace, on Twitter. So knowing Disney was run by a bunch of feckless idiots, Cernovich dug up some old tweets and got Gunn fired. So basically, Disney let an absolute slimeball of a human being act as a pro bono, politically motivated HR guy, and jettisoned their best director.
Disney realized their mistake and rehired him. But who's going to stay with a company where any 4Chan-loving chud on Twitter can get you fired? So Gunn finished his Guardians trilogy, then Warner Bros. swooped in and gave Gunn the keys to the castle for the DC comics movies.
That's not all that's wrong with the MCU, but I think the way they treated Gunn was a mortal (self-inflicted) wound.
Both commentators and Disney itself come up with every excuse except the most obvious. Marvel has a problem and I don't think its primarily fatigue, too large of investment, streaming issues, or people not caring about C list characters. The main problem is QUALITY. The quality of writing and effects and evident lack of planning for the future have caused distrust in the brand and bad word of mouth so people stopped going. If it had been planned out and written as well as past installments, it wouldn't have lost as much momentum.
I actually feel bad for Ian and Pat, they won't bring up the elephant in the room, that a 1000 other podcasts have....it's almost like they go out of their way to avoid what everyone knows has ruined the MCU. Oh well. I guess bliss works on the stupid.
@@Morgil27 haha, exactly my point, thank you
My issue with the MCU, is the streaming series itself.
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Because it technically did have shows before the Marvel Studio shows took place, however they did not impact or affected the original MCU timeline, it was its own thing.
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But now, to understand a movie from MCU, you have to see a show from MCU, unlike a great nod of Daredevil from Spider-Man No Where Home.
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But as Ian said, the last movie I saw was Dr. Strange, I did watch Moon Knight, but I got tired after that.
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I don't think the MCU has a clear direction or what their target audience is anymore
I think super hero films in general are overplayed and boring. How many Spider Mans or Batmans do we need?
I agree. Wish we had more original takes on the genre, like Defendor (2009) and Super (2010).
It's simple to fix, just cut all woke nonsense!
they lack the b0llZ or brehnZ to talk about all the ESG / DEI b0llcr4p.
I think if The Marvels is any indication, it looks like the X-Men in the MCU is going to be pulled from a parallel universe so maybe they'll pull an alternate Iron Man and Cap from a different universe as well. Eventually I think this multiverse saga is going to end with them repairing the multiverse madness by merging them together to create a prime universe.
Nerd
Yeah. But the problem was focusing on the multiverse. They could have made a single movie about the multiverse. They find out it exists and there's a problem that requires some people from one universe get stuck in this one, closing the bridge between universes. They should have saved the concept for when they really run out of ideas.
It would have been an easy way to pull those characters into this universe without building everything around the multiverse. It doesn't need to be a big thing unto itself like comics because comics have a lot more time to flesh out concepts. Plus they have mined more concepts into oblivion since they're longer running.
The issue isn't Marvel movies or superhero fatigue. The Issue is we live in a post covvid world. People got use to staying home and watching the movies on Streaming. The total box office for ALL movies is down 4 billion from before coivd. That shows that people aren't going to see ANY movie.
Sure you get a Barbie, or Top Gun but if you look at the box office for the top 10 it pales into comparison to the top 10 pre covvid. Even those movies should have done even better.
People are ok with waitng a few months until it comes out on streaming.
Honestly if they had postponed the Marvels till 2024 and done a proper run up to it, then it probably would have done pretty good.
As for fixing do what they already plan to do. Go back to fewer releases. Next year we only get Deadpool 3 and let's be honest that is going to be a hit. Then 2025 release 1 more movie and slowly build your way up until the box office has normalized.
Only the west are used to staying home. Not so much with Europe and Asia though. Its more a cultural thing when you think about it.
@@BeyondDaX nope it's internationally as well. Box office Internationally is also way down.
@@OM19_MO79 you miss the point. Look at the top movies of the year. Compare their box office total to 2019 or 2018. You will see movies across the board regardless of genre are way down.
It's all movies even new unique movies.
Nah that's a scapegoat. People will go to the theater to see movies they interest them. If no one see's The Marvels, it's because of a lack of interest.
@@SchmergDergen i think you need to take a look at the box office the past few years. Movies that have done horribley at the box office are doing great on streaming.
lol. There's no fixing it. They keep pumping out the same cgi/green screen/joss whedon style flicks and after 30 of these films there's nowhere to go. Except to start over.
1. Multiverse nonsense is cheapening everything.
2. TV shows are creating the reason I stopped reading comics, the dreaded yellow text block: "See Someguy issue 23 pg 3-30."
3. Kang is bad. Loki season 1 version was a joke. Antman version was an idiot, and the post credit scene was embarrassing to someone who has no comic exposure to him.
At this point? THe best thing to do is probably stop and let people get over their super hero burnout.
A few months ago I started remembering Endgame. And I realized that Hulk disappeared from the battle. And that Drax never talked to Thanos. I rewatched it just to see and that never happened. What a waste.
The MCU is going downhill fast. They're introducing too many new characters that aren't developed enough. Nobody cares about these guys the same way as we did with the OG Avengers. Why are they doing Young Avengers? and why are they all females? They can save Phase 5 and 6 with a really strong Fantastic 4 and X-Men movie. Its a huge task but not impossible.
Here is a thought ….. Disney needs to stop pumping this crap out …..
Maybe put out Tron 3, or explore some other ideals …… NOT STAR WARS EITHER……
Hire some new writers, and HAVE SOME ORIGINALITY…… my God, its like people are afraid to explore new ideals these days. …. Smh
You know you’re old when you’re friendly neighborhood podcasters start slinging generic viagra ❤
I am 52 and grew up reading Cap America. When he whispered Avengets Assemble I knew this was the end to my childhood heroes. The STRONG WOMEN scene with the girl power team you could see the writing on thewall
I completely agree with Ian, I don’t want a million super heroes in one movie. The dark knight trilogy, iron man 1 and 3, Thor, captain American, The man of steel, the 2000s Spider-Man movies and the blade movies all being examples of the pinnacle of super hero movies. These super heroes should be able to carry a movie on their own
Apparently Marvel can't make a new X-Men film with new actors playing the parts until 2025 because all the original actors signed a contract with Fox before the Disney buy. Hence why Patrick Stewart was in MOM, Hugh Jackman being in Deadpool 3 etc.
I had waited to watch all the more modern Marvel movies until I could binge them. Of course I saw the old Hulk movies, Iron Man 1, Raimi Spider-Man trilogy, but I saved the Infinity saga ro experience with my family.
Had a great time watching them all in order, but I agree with Pat about Endgame not really being that great. I was actually surprised that I didn't enjoy it as much as Infinity War, Endgame felt barren and not as satisfying as ppl made it out to be.
I really think newfound success can be had if these companies like DC just cherrypicked some of the best Batman TAS episodes/arcs, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited series, and just bring it to live action. There's so many amazing yet simple Batman episodes, and JL could've been the fun romp it's supposed to be, about these different heroes finding each other and figuring out how to work together. Plus, if they followed stuff like the JL shows, everyone would already know and love characters like Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl.
I think Marvel should do something similar, just keep it simple, stick to the comics, don't worry about politcally updating every little detail, if things like race/gender swapping truly make more sense, then do it, if not, leave it alone.
The MCU overstayed it's welcome. Changing around characters in the name of inclusion didn't do it any favors
Fix it by ending the multiverse, and stop trying to connect everything. This way a bad movie won't affect future marvel movies
I think streaming isn't the problem, it should be the solution.
Make it one TV show, season by season arcs, each episode focusing on a different character. Then you can also make some episodes that are self contained stories.
My main point for this is that you need to watch all of them to keep up anyways, so why not just have it all in a linear order
because that would cost more money than funding public education in most countries
There was a universe of movies before MCU and it was called ViewAskew Universe. Not as big of course not but it still counts.
The Universal Monsters was a cinematic universe from the 20's, 30's and 40's and beyond.
MCU is NOT the only successful cinematic universe.
The Marvels wasn't that bad it's been getting roasted too hard. People are getting too picky is my opinion. Deadpool 3 is gonna bring everyone back though.
23:38 you know what's hilarious? Instead of doing this they made Spider-Man play second fiddle to iron man. Man these studio execs are just dumb, dumb beyond belief
Its easy you STOP MAKING COMIC BOOK MOVIES!!!!!! I know the "hardcore" can't stand it but general audiences are done with the constant flow of comic book movies that require you saw 5 other movies and watched 3 streaming shows on Disney+ or you miss things....Its been blatantly obvious the comic book movie bubble has burst and its done. Each comic book movie has done worse than the one before it...
They should have taken atleast a 5 year break after Endgame and with DC who the hell is going to go see a DC movie knowing that its going to set up some sequel that isn't coming because now they're rebooting everything. All the movies that did well in 2023 almost ZERO of them were comic book movies. The only comic book movies that did well were SONY'S Spiderverse and Guardians 3 because Guardians 3 was ending a trilogy and didn't expect you to watch 24 other things before you saw it.
Every Young Avengers character is getting introduced with the other established characters... you just need to watch everything to see them... almost everyone has been on screen already
Marvel has reached the point of diminishing returns.
They're probably going to use the whole alternate universes colliding gimmick to introduce new versions of existing retired characters, on top of using it to bake the former fox characters into canon. We might finally get that Tom Cruise version of Iron Man.
I disagree with Ian. Marvel needs to be connected. However, Marvel needs to tell better stories with their B, C, and D-List characters (like Guardians of the Galaxy). It almost seems like they are just shoehorning in all of these characters to fit a quota. Also Marvel's overall movie formula is kinda stale -- people watch Marvel movies and TV shows basically for the end credits -- to watch the next character "set up" or reveal in the post credits scene. At times pretty prominent villians or rouges gallery characters are used throwaways to be killed off for the purpose of the movie instead of written openly. It's lame stuff.
Loki was brilliant in a sense that it was a wholly self contained series that just had great character development for just about every single character featured. Because of it, MCU oki, a known villian (and sometimes anti-hero) has basically catapulted into super stardom that rivals MCU Ironman / Captain America / Thor. Marvel needs more of this in their shows.
I feel like they should of pulled a Star Trek reboot film series and have a separate cinematic universe from the already existing one. Have it focus on big hitters like the X Men and then throw in more interesting lesser known ones.
Otherwise it just gets to a point where there is too much to consume in your film series and just make stand alone films. Also Robocop's original promo comics were done by Marvel so Robocop in the MCU make it happen Disney.
No way! I don't want to see a Robocop movie made by Disney. They will probably make it a PG film wish a female lead who makes Robocop look like a moron.
Batman, nobody bats an eyelid when a different batman comes along (other than the choice of actor in some cases), similar deal with Spiderman but on a shorter timescale. MCU is great up until the point actors get too old or don't want to do it any more, people associate that actor with the character too much. Has become a victim of its own success.
"we saw this coming" isn't much of an excuse, you two were like "Oh wow, Moon Knight!" But right now there's a HUGE ASS PROBLEM, There's a Hunger Games film and the lack of promotion is hurting it. That's not to say it's impossible, right now it's a tough market, Disney and Pixar have found clever ways to make money. Elemental hot takes come off like it was a bomb, but Pixar found a way to make it into a hit. And again, that's also a tough sell, an allegory for racism with fire and water, it's not a dancing pop hit movie.
I wouldn't say it's all doom and gloom, the industry has changed, and I'm excited for Aquaman 2. Also SpiderVerse 2 made a Billion this past summer.
Dump the liberals , dump the political and queer messages and get back to the basics. Quite simple really. Hopefully it all crumbles
They need to take Fantastic Four(Spider-Man was introduced in the comics with them) reboot the world and go fresh from there into these other characters. This arc was great because it started with Iron Man one of the OGs in the comics, but it ended with End Game. They need to get back to a heavy hitter then pepper in all these additional characters.
"How Do We Fix It?" You say "we" like any of us have any influence on it.
Take three to five years off is the solution
Fire everyone, put marvel in vault for 10 years...start over new, never hire writers like they currently have ever again.
you mean the writers that made marvel into a multi billion dollar success?
The second dotor strange movie was terrible. The actress that the America Chavez was horrible. She was barely believable as a human being. The pacing was all over the place and it was just plain bad. Still a million times better than Love & Thunder. The Marvels problems went beyond actors and writters strikes and actors being able to promote the movie. The general public just doesn't care for any of the main heroes in The Marvels.
Who the hell says Iron like that?
I know its too late to suggest this, but I feel that some of the issues that Marvel is experiencing right now could be sidestepped if they decided to make their main movies and shows animated instead of in live-action. Not only would they not need to worry about actors aging as much, but they would be able to experiment with different visual styles more easily. The big issue is that animation is both expensive and time-consuming...
and theyve had animation forever. seems only spiderman got a lot of popularity.
I love animation more than live action, but you're right, it's more expensive and time consuming. it also wouldn't appeal to the mass market. it's unfortunately much harder to justify making an animated movie. there's a reason a lot of companies who specialized in animation are trying to get into live action
Still can't be more expensive than a live action MCU movie. "What If" didn't even have some of the original actors do voices for their characters.
Phase 1 - 4 was pretty much perfect. it's ok to let it go. I'm not mad at Marvel at all, and I don't think you can keep something like the MCU going forever.
Shang-Chi now ties into Iron Man 3 with some character points.
It's not in trouble. It's just straight dead.
The MCU was only ever a novelty, having a connected universe was cool. Now that it’s worn out no one cares anymore. It never had interesting characters to develop or good writing to fall back on. So it’s just run its course and is inevitably dying off.
I haven't watched any marvel movies since forever cause superhero movies are all extreme special FX muscle flexes. Probably not seen one since 2006ish