3:45 That pushbutton switch fits perfectly. You don't want that planer to look like it's in the 1800s, you want it to look like it's from the 1800s, but experienced the 1900s. Having that story of how this machine survived the 1900s adds so much. I love to see how machines have been upgraded and improved over time. You can bet the machinists in the 1800s would have loved electric drive, and then loved 10x having VFD electric drive.
I am the VFD programmer at my place of work, so I went with used Allen-Bradley Powerflex VFDs for my home shop. My surface grinder has something like a 60 second rampup time (so I can skip the motor pulses for startup), and the mill/lathe VFDs have breaking resistors on them. The mill comes to a complete stop 0.5s after turning off the switch, and the lathe with the big chuck stops in 2 or 3 seconds. Once you use a tool with a breaking resistor you won't want to go back. I needed to use a 6" hole saw on stainless once which needed 25RPM, but a Bridgeport can only go to 60RPM, so cutting the VFD to 25Hz brought me right there.
Excellent, Keith! You are one of the few that seem to recognize what huge advantages VFDs are for use on machinery, particularly older machines and motors. I've had zero issues with either of 2 VFDs on a 1970's DeValliere lathe and a 1943 Cincinnati No 2MH Universal mill. More of us should learn about VFDs. One key advantage is that the soft start will reduce wear on machinery by reducing the startup shock. You can also simply listen for resonances in the motor and find a more ideal max speed. After older machines have been run at 60 Hz for decades, the bearings can actually develop patterns of wear that increase vibration at 60 Hz. By adjusting the max speed slightly above or below 60 Hz, you can find where the motor and bearing operate more quietly and extend the life of those parts.
"One key advantage is that the soft start will..." Pretty much the reason I didn't go for a VFD ! My lathe, for whatever reason, has an instant reverse switch and so it's a feature I wanted to keep.
And for the price today just the control options make them the way to go. I have a 5HP on the Causing lathe and a 3Hp on the Cinci Toolmaster Mill. Both ChiCom too. 3 years of at least 20 or more hours a week on the Clausing and 10 anyway on the Toolmaster Not so much as a hickup. We have a Rotary Converter and do use it for other machines like the Horizontal Mill and Powermatic Bandsaw, but I connected the Inverters on single phase. We only start the converter when we use one of the machines that do not have a VFD on them. thay There are just too many advantages to mention.(Like getting rid of the hydraulic Reeves drive on the Clausing) and at the price today it makes no seance to use anything else on anything the can benefit from speed control or remote switching. I don't care what the "experts" or keith say. If there is anything out there that works any different then the Chinese stuff that I got it could only work worse. Like I said, 3 years of industrial use without a hickup,,,,,and they cost less then an Allen Bradley Motor Starter would cost you. If you are worried get one for a spair,,,,,You Still will be cheaper then a "name brand" inverter. From where I am standing it looks like the part that is not created equal is the price.
@@mathewmolk2089 There is a lot of excellent electronic controllers available from China. I used to use needle valve based flow controllers that cost $25 on the chain oilers I produce, until I found $5 programmable digital timers with displays and now I control the flow by setting the duty cycle of the solenoid valve. Never had one fail.
@@mathewmolk2089 are you able to share which specific Chinese VFD's you've had luck with? I got a cheap one (Topshak AT1-2200X) for $CAD 100 and so far it seems to be working well. I've only really used it to see if I could run a Hobart mixer and a 3HP motor destined for a wood lathe project. As near as I've been able to tell from the research I did some units have more involved control algorithms with torque/flux vector control that gives better results at lower speeds. The simpler V/f approach seems to be fine as long as you don't need more power at low speeds. At least that's my take. I'm reading through the comments here to get the all important 'real world' experience and results.
Keith, Senior Controls Engineer here, I design control systems for modern machinery. Your explanation is mostly good for non-technical persons and will most certainly work. However, there is more into determining the decision of a rotary phase converter over a VFD and I certainly can't give an adequate explanation of 30 years of knowledge in a few paragraphs. The one thing I would express to you is that for a standard 3 phase motor your minimum speed should be set around 20 hertz, 30 if you under a constant heavy load. Motors meant for use with a VFD can handle lower speeds. If you don't adhere to this you can burn up your motor. Good luck and thank you for the videos I'm a big fan.
Further to Jerry's comment, the reason for limiting the frequency is that the motor-shaft-driven cooling fan doesn't provide enough air flow to cool the motor. A separately-driven motor cooling fan is often used in industrial applications requiring a wider motor speed range.
In books, Jerry, But in real life there is no problem with a motor that was not already on it's way out anyway. You really should put a fan on any VFD powered motor. ,,,, Just FYI I got my degree in 1980 before there were any VFDs in common use (BTWm We are working on a 300HP machine now.= We are industrial electrical./Millwright contractors)
@@mathewmolk2089 A large part of my career was spent putting modern controls on old machinery and of course they didn't want to replace motors that have run just fine for the past 15 years. Lol. And yes if you're going to be running consistently at low speeds a separately controlled fan motor is recommended.
Such a great insight into how stuff was made many years ago. These old machines are so built like tanks, so to speak - so much over - engineering was put into things to make sure they lasted more than a lifetime. And more than a lifetime, as they can be refurbished and put out to pasture. The motor control devices these days are quite advanced, which consider the amount of torque available at low speeds, but overheating is always the limiting factor. Thank you for sharing, Keith. Take care you all, from England.
Keith, as ever, great job explaining things. Sometimes, there is no substitution for many words. It's awesome that while you had a good setup for the planer, you were able to make it even better. I know you've got a lot of irons in the fire right now, with multiple projects needing to get done. Can't wait to see the 10EE come up in the queue. I also can't wait to see you put the tailstock back on the HBM, because I'm going to guess that getting that back true to the headstock is going to be some challenge. I never tire of seeing you bring back something that was headed for cast iron heaven and putting it to use. Stay healthy, be good, and see you for the next one.
Just a note worth writing, this Ironhorse VFD as well as any others: Keith said that it can run a 5HP 3 Phase motor.... or a 2 HP Single phase motor but that info was interpreted wrong, it actually means that the VFD will handle a 5 HP 3 Phase motor with 3 Phase Input....or a 2 HP 3 Phase motor with Single phase input. VFDs are not designed to run single phase motors.
When you get to single phase motors, some will work with a vfd, some will sort of work with a VFD and some won't work with a VFD. I get the impression that VFD won't be very happy with a 1ph motor however, I'm sure you can get VFDs for single phase motors !
I recently restored a South Bend 13" lathe and am powering it with a VFD. The first VFD, which I bought for about $100 on Amazon, created a high-pitched whine in the motor. My wife found it disturbing from 2 floors away. I ended up replacing it with a $380 unit from a local motor specialty shop. This too makes a high-pitched whine, but at a very much lower level. The difference between the two VFDs is the maximum "carrier" or "PWM" frequency. For the cheap unit, it's 10,000 Hz and for the more expensive unit, it's 15,000 Hz. This makes all the difference in the world when running my lathe. I think your comments about the economics of VFDs versus rotary phase converters are spot-on.
Have you checked if you can change the PWM-frequency? You won't get a VFD without PWM control, but sometimes you can set it to a frequency above the hearing range (which usually ends at 20 kHz, or lower for older people). Especially on old motors with loosely wound windings (not potted) some of the wires can get into resonance with the PWM frequency and start swinging. But be aware that the power rating gets reduced a little when using higher switching frequencies.
@@CatNolara Yes, you can adjust the PWM frequency on both units. However, the cheaper unit only goes up to 10,000 Hz and the better unit goes up to 15,000 Hz. Some units go higher which may be better still.
Good explanation! In the early '80s I was a Sales Engineer for a Mill and Industrial Supply house here in Atlanta for five years. Got the opportunity to spend time with many of our suppliers training on their equipment. Airline flights and hotels on the company dime. Can't beat getting paid AND learning at the same time! ;) One was Reliance Electric. To make a long story short I went to their training facility somewhere in Ohio (IIRC, there were many trips all over) and spent a week going through the same training program their field service techs got. Everything from motors and mechanical speed controllers to VFDs and highly programmable speed control devices. Conveyor drives, you name it. Every day at that job was an adventure! I never knew when I walked in in the morning what the day would bring! ;)
I have a small shop and I have used a static phase converter to power an old drill press and a horizontal mill. I only use one or the other so it works out well... They are both 2 HP...
That was an education. I personally do not have any machines that run on three phase. At least at the moment. I had to chuckle when you commented on the "one time" purchase of a three phase machine. Thank you for such a thorough explanation of VFDs.
Thanks for that explanation Keith. I always get a qualified sparky in to work on our electrics BUT it is great to understand what it is they are talking about/doing. Understanding this sort of thing helps me have at least a reasonable conversation with specialists.
I use a VFD on my little Logan lathe, but since in my shop area it would be difficult to run run 240 I found a VFD made by WEG that actually runs off of 120v single phase power and steps up the voltage to 240v 3 phase. It works great, will power up to a 1-1/2 hp motor which is the right size for a lot of the smaller hobby machines those of us with small shops have. They're under $250 and made in Brazil, which I guess is a step up from China. Neat little unit, I haven't had any issues with mine in the three years or so I've had it. The model is CFW300A06P0S1NB20. Thought I would share since there are probably some others like me who didn't really know you can use a VFD to run your small 3 phase motor on 120v power. Before I found my VFD I was looking at swapping the motor or trying to run a new 220v circuit , both of which would have been much more expensive and time consuming, plus you get all the traditional VFD benefits for controlling the motor.
@mechanical turk, I appreciate your comment and the direct part number reference. I spent a lot of time looking through the automation direct site, and it seems they also ship to Canada.
I have a older Clausing drill press - 5 speed with step pulley - 3 phase motor - and use a VFD because my home shop has single phase power. Soft start and better RPM control a big plus over my old Delta drill press. Very happy with my drill press upgrade.
I agree, Keith. To many guys will try to go low-ball on the get-go, only to find out what they bought won't cut the mustard later on. Lots of good info. Thanks for the video. See you at the Bar-Z. Jon
Love my "American Rotary Phase Converter" running Monarch Lathe, Doall Band Saw, Brown and Sharp Surface Grinder, and Wells Index Milling Machine all inspired from your chanel. Actually have started doing some jobs for friends. So much fun, thank you for the great info.
The manual comment was right on! My second VFD (chinese) came with a manual that was literally an inch thick. It was actually very readable (not "chinglish"), but it had no index, and it kept reusing diagrams with minor changes. I only needed the info on 4 pages, but it took me about five hours to nail down those pages. If the actual English had been been bad also, it might have taken at least twice as long. My first VFD was also chinese, but it came with a large foldout diagram that was easy to read.
What a great job describing the ins and outs of VFDs and the rationale behind using a VFD for phase conversion vs a "real" rotatory phase converter. Your video style makes learning an enjoyable pastime (I'm retired). Seeing new progress in the stoker engine will be nice too!
I just installed Automation Direct"s DuraPulse VFD. The documentation and videos are awesome! Quick setup and explained well. Very reasonably priced as well.
Keith, I would set your minimum frequency to 20Hz unless you are using an inverter duty motor. The lower in frequency you go, the lower the speed the motor runs and the less it is able to cool itself. If you run it for extended periods of time at low RPM, you can burn up the windings in the motor. Also, I am really surprised to see a VFD if that brand with Safe-Torque. Very surprising as this is usually only found in much higher grade VFD's.
@@CatNolara VFD's vary frequency to adjust speed, not voltage. 3 phase motors are synchronous motors, that means the poles of the motor are "in sync" with the sinusoidal wave form of the 3-phase AC line. As each phase begins to rise in the windings, the pole of the rotor aligns with the rising magnetic field on that winding. The magnetic field rising in the winding aligning with the pole on the rotor is where synchronous speed of the motor comes from. Adjusting the voltage, would not affect the speed, only the overall power of the motor; and it would not affect the power all that well, it would just force current to rise to support the magnetic field to the point where the coil no longer saturates due to the falling voltage; not enough voltage to then support the current flow.
The reactance of the Inductive part of the motor is smaller with lower drive frequencies and the counter-emf is lower with a lower motor speed. The phase currents will be greater and the power in the windings will be greater (without cooling from the integral fan). The 3-phase motor used is an induction motor not a synchronous motor. The speed difference between rotor and stator induces currents in the squirrel cage of the stator to produce the magnetic field for torque. A 3-phase 12-pole motor will run somewhere between 1800 rpm at no load and 1750 rpm at rated torque.
@@steveschulte8696 Induction motors sure are synchronous in that the magnetic fields try and sync with each other. They never will obviously due to the mismatch in phase vs pole count so there always will be rotor slip so never will be completely in sync other than every pole/field multiple.
@@StreuB1 Sorry, but that's not right. Most VFDs do vary the voltage depending on frequency, normally you set a max voltage and a reference frequency (usually 50 or 60 Hz) and the VFD interpolates the voltage for lower frequencies. You should search for the V/f curve, that should explain it. Because of lower emf at lower speed the current would increase up to the point of burning the coils, but if you decrease the voltage simultanously the current should stay roughly the same if configured correctly. So the voltage ramps up linearly with frequency up to the max voltage and stays constant for frequencies above that.
Keith, I am an electrician. I think that you did an admirable job explaining VFD three phase applications for the hobbiest. You readily admit that you are not an electrician by trade. I grant you a measure of tolerance for any slightly errant statements in this explanation. You essentially got it right and we'll stated. VFD'S in my experience are not intended to be mounted outside of an electrical enclosure. Your description of this Iron Horse indicates that this unit does not require the enclosure. Since this uncommon to my experience, this is a big advantage in that you don't have to build a cabinet with adequate ventilation for heat management. Sometimes the heat sink (exchanger) can extend to the outside of the enclosure reducing the enclosure operating temperature. Rotary phase converters can run multiple 3 phase motors, as you stated. Any already running 3 phase motors actually "add" to the rotary phase conversion. Note that they are rated with a range of HP. I believe this rating is the largest motor load the rotary phase converter can start, add the larger number is the max total HP that can be simultaneously connected. If you have a shop with multiple 3 phase loads running on a single rotary phase converter you probably should install a 3 phase load center with adequate breaker space for all connected machines. Then 3phase power can be supplied to each load following NEC guidelines. The cheapest and crudest system (that I currently employ in my shop) is to use portable cord with a cord connect twist lock plug on the load side of the rotary phase converter. I just move my three phase plug/cord to the 3 phase machine that I want to run. Each machine is already wired with internal motor control and protection. I work alone in my shop and I have no requirement to ever run two machines at the same time. My wood lathe uses VFD for three phase generation, motor speed control and adds motor reversing function that was not included in the original machine design. I have 6 metal working machines that currently are served by swapping the cord.
Paul - boxed VFDs could be a 'Pond' thing. The VFDs in England all seem to b self-contained units - basically mount to the wall as they are, no need for enclosures or additional cooling fans. Interesting about the '3 ph load center' - I guess it's what we know as a distribution board. I think Keith doesn't have a specific issue for the same reason you don't - a one-man operation so fairly unlikely two machines running at the same time BUT the planer is a machine suited for unattended running for extended periods of time - offering up the potential of leaving that running while using another machine. I can't remember what HP Keith's rotary converter will power but I'd say definitely 2 machines, possibly 3-4 depending on the size of the motors. As long as the power distribution wiring is heavy enough, it shouldn't be a problem even if not quite to 'code'. I was quite undecided how to provide 3ph power to my equipment. I thought I had 3 3ph machines: lathe, mill, welder - so I made a junction box with 3 outlets - one for the mill, one for the lathe and a spare. It turns out the welder is only single phase but can be run on 3ph voltage ! My 3ph static converter went bang last time it was powered up. My dad had got it and I gotta say, I never really liked it. For one, it required 'tuning' to the load - and that was via an 8 position rotary knob. It also turns out that it reduces motor HP to 2/3 actual value, it seems - so I decided not to get it fixed. My lathe has an instant motor reverse lever - which I knew the VFDs wouldn't like - although it might be a VFD would be happy to instantly reverse a motor - but I've not had that confirmed yet. At the time, this ruled those out for me. Also, the fact it's electronics - and I've broken cast iron with electronics - and I could easily break electronics too ! So I was considering the rotary converter route - and seemed to find out there are 2 types and those selling the things weren't clear as to what they were selling. Whether it was the cheap 'rotary converter' that uses and idler motor to create a third phase or whether it was a rotary transformer - a motor and generator in the same casing with suitably peculiar windings for the motor and the generator side. I'd have liked to have found a proper MG set - possibly belt driven rather than direct drive as I could then vary the generator speed - hence varying the 3ph frequency. I couldn't find what I'd be happy with - like that - so in the end, to be sure of decent 3ph, I got a proper generator - attached to a diesel engine ! This now doubles up as emergency power for the house. As such, it's even more quirky as I'll need to distribute the house load across 3 phases! So my distribution box is not only fitted with 3 3ph outlets, it's fitted with 3 1ph outlets, 3 ammeters, a DOL starter (with overload protection to suit the generator) and a 3ph RCD ! (GCFI)
@@millomweb Lots of ways to "skin a cat". I have run my infrequently used machine shop loads via my home built rotary phase converter and only ran my wood lathe with a VFD. I keep adding to the machine shop inventory. I built a new shop (4800 ft2) just for all things metal and mechanical. I am keeping my old shop for exclusive woodworking. One of my wood lathes is 3 phase, and I will keep it serviced by the VFD. I decided to set up the new shop with a factory built rotary phase converter servicing the machine tools with a single cord as stated. I just bought a big American Pacemaker that I suspect will overload my existing set up. I bought a larger rotary phase converter that needs the control wiring repaired. It might be large enough to service the Pacemaker. I underestimated the American Pacemaker machine weight and I don't have provision to rig it off of the truck (9500 #). My lifting capacity at home is 3T. Access to the motor is not currently possible since it is staged against a wall. So I am guessing at the lathe's motor size. If this lathe proves to be what I need and want, I will probably invest in a 3 phase panel and adequately sized rotary phase converter to run existing equipment and provide room for growth. Old iron 3 phase machinery increases my buying opportunity, reduces bidding competition, and assures that I am buying industrial class equipment. All of this is just for my hobby pleasure. I don't know how far I will take my hobby. I am still setting up the new shop. I moved in on Jan 1. No heat in the new shop yet and open heart surgery has limited my shop time. I maintained CNC machinery in my career. I am taking great pleasure building an extensive shop and teaching myself manual machining in my retirement. I lived under an acquisition freeze when I only had the mixed disciplines shop as I ran out of space. The new building is expected to never limit my acquisition passions.
@@paulhunt598 Will you make a YT channel out of your endeavours ? Sounds like it needs one ;) Buying acquisitions - you mean like a bigger crane :) As for the Pacemaker overloading the converter, it depends ;) Obviously the biggest load will be starting the motor. You could ease that with a star-delta starter. Providing the rotary is up to providing full load current there are a number of bodge options.
@@millomweb A bigger crane is an option. I have a home built and unrated gantry frame that I got from work years ago. I am not an engineer, but I think it has adequate steel for 5T capacity, but I built it years ago from shop scrap to service a 1T motorized trolley hoist. I am not certain that I want to upgrade to 5T hoist and trolley and tie up shop floor space for an otherwise unnecessary capacity. My 3T gantry is factory built and rated. It moves easily through the shop and has a smaller footprint. I think that future machines will be within my 3T capacity. I would love a full service bridge crane (I am partial towards Gorbel), but my shop is intended for hobby pleasure. I need some restraint on my spending!
just remember there is more than one method of breaking using this vfd, there is a spot to wire in a shunt resistor/ reactor for high dynamic load breaking or if the load is small you can use the drives speed control. this is application dependent.
English is not my native language and I learned it "late". But the way you convey knowledge, it doesn't need translation help. Very, very well and effectively explained. The advice is also very useful in my opinion. I live in the comfortable situation of having 400 V, 50 HZ, 3 phase AC here in my home, but still run a VFD to regulate the speed of a lathe. Reversing the V-belts is usually too much work, but necessary now and then. Best regards, Raik
Another great thing about VFD'S besides saving money on electrical energy drives with their ability to do a ramp up start definitely prolongs gear boxes. Back in the 1980 we had a 5 HP Reeves combination motor & variable speed Reeves belt. It was inside a machine and always took 8 hours to replace no matter who did it. Reeves drive would never last more then 18 months. Went to a three motor bolted to a gear box feed by a VFD that had a 10 second ramp up time and maybe a 1.5 second ramp down . Motor & new gear box was still running great ten years later. We always had a great very knowledgeable tech for Candles perform all start ups. Only charged maybe $200 and extended free parts & Labor to 3 years. He had a one inch thick book just for programming that book that came with drives might only be 40 pages. In our newest building all motors 40 HP & higher were 18 pulse style of VFD. 250 HP Fire pump had a soft starter. Best practice is to mount drives in a clean not overheated area and blow them out and clean filters twice a year. Surprise d that you do not have three phase service. Have worked in machine shops where they had a 200 to 800 amp 240 volt three phase service and a 100 to 200 amp service for lightning and general 120 volt receptacles. Not a fan of having single drive feeding two machines. Prices have really came down over the years. Did power up four 1 HP conveyors from one drive on a packing line. If a few people did not show up for work that day they would run line slower.
I would wire the pilot light to indicate if the power is on (and thus the Start button is live and will start the motor) rather than if the motor is running (which one can tell visually). I would also program the speed adjustment to some minimum speed so the motor can't be "on" but going so slow you don't see it moving.
Re the pilot light - I totally agree - it should be lit whenever the go button will actually start the machine. Comes in handier if the machine has multiple latching stop buttons - so you know they're all unlatched without having to start it. As for the second point, I'd be interested to see a machine manually ramped up from 0 as it'd be interesting to see how slow it would go (for a short time!). I daresay the current would be higher than the motor was designed. As per your suggestion, I'd guess 10 Hz for a minimum for a start.
You are correct about a minimum speed. Motor cooling can be a problem. Below 20HZ the motor can over heat due it’s internal cooling fan not supplying sufficient cooling air to cool the motor, hot environments compound the problem. A DC motor works better at slower speeds when a motor is limited at 20HZ. Starting torque and motor inrush current is also a consideration, adding a 5hp VSD to an existing 5hp motor will not work without a soft start. On a 5hp existing application we would increase to 7.5hp (1.5X) and use a 10hp VSD. With VSDs you have to do your homework and work with supplier, we learned the hard way during their infancy.
@@staticguy5554 I think I'm glad I went for a diesel generator. Basic, robust and proper 3 phase. It may not have been the best option but is possibly the 'safest'.
A year or so ago we retrofitted our Apex 20” disc sander at work to a VFD to eliminate the old barrel switch that was toast. It’s much safer because the direction can’t be changed until the rotation stops and it now has dynamic braking to stop it in about 60 seconds instead of 15 minutes (without using a block of wood). We always run it at full speed. It was a great upgrade but our supplier recommended changing the motor out because the existing one was an old design that wouldn’t stand up long with a VFD. We have three phase power and the new motor (2hp) was cheaper than the VFD.
I got a VFD to put on my 1.5HP lathe, but then somehow I ended up with a mill and a surface grinder. The mill had a single phase motor, but that was burned out, and the surface grinder was 3 phase. Looking at my options a 3ph replacement for the mill was going to be cheaper so now with 3 machines in the shop I just decided to get a rotary phase converter.
I use Mitsubishi D700 and Allen Bradley PowerFlex VFDs at work. Of the two, Mitsubishi ones seem to hold up better. But we're using them for running conveyors and rotary cam indexers in robot welding cells... very different application. At least the Mitsubishi ones are easy (enough) to program... and most/all of the I/O is configurable.
There great VFD motor controllers they do have advantages and disadvantages but over all just great.Sometimes can cause clogging or erratic motor operation.
Automation Direct has wonderful technical support department based in Cummin Georgia. Their website and TH-cam channel have several quality tutorials. If an application requires finer speed selection, a multi turn potentiometer rather than a single turn is a great solution. Thank you for the continuing stellar content!
Thanks for another excellent vid Keith! got a 5 hp rotary converter on my lathe and mill, I couldnt justify the extra cost of vfd, the old original motors have been snapping on and off full power since the 60s and I dont see that hurting the motors anytime soon. I totally agree with you using one on the planer with the flat belt drive. No doubt its much less likely to throw the belts off with the soft start.
My Monarch 10EE was converted to run on a 3 Phase 5HP AC motor and a 3Phase VFD. Used a potentiometer connected to the original lathe speed control to adjust the speed so it looks and and is controlled exactly as original. I could have programed the VFD to run the motor at the 4,000 RPM spindle speed the DC motor turned but didn't. I didn't need that. I have heard from people that the slow speed setting on the VFD would significantly reduce the torque but I haven't experienced it. Have never had the lathe stall at very low speeds. Works just fine in my shop.
Most of Canada before the late 1940' used o be on 50 Hz ... While Toronto was on 25 Hz .. A HUGE program in the early 1950's changed appliances and radios etc to 60 Hz standard, and we could share the grid with the USA! ... So smart to do that when labour was cheap! :) it cost Millions even back then. It has been a HUGE advantage for both our countries! :)
Life is so much easier here (Sweden) where three phase is the default to get. Even the previous single room apartment I lived in had three phases. That said, VFDs are awesome - I'm updating a Russian lathe from the 80's and the plan is to use a VFD to get variable rpm and connect it to a microcontroller to get constant cutting speed like on a CNC (I have constructed my own measuring device using an arduino).
Not to promote a particular brand but I frequently use Automation Direct VFD’s. Not the best VFD out there but for the money they are a pretty good deal. One suggestion is to utilize the power dissipation resistor option for better electronic breaking. It comes in handy if you want to implement an E-Stop that stops the machine rapidly.
The vfd reads the voltage change from the potentiometer and depending on what you have programmed the control voltage the changes in the control power coming from the potentiometer it takes that and changes the frequency to slow down and speed up the motor
My Hitachi VFD will run two different motors. I have it on my Bridgport that runs the j head or the shaper head. Just unplug one head plug in the other head and flip the selector switch to the appropriate head and all the settings change accordingly. I’m an electrician with controls background and it took me weeks messing with all the settings to figure it all out and get it dialed in.
They are all much more forgiving then the collage boys would lead you to believe. It really is not rocket science,,,,Even programing from a Chinglish manual is not as hard as some make out; Just be ready to spend some time and have a few soft unbreakable things to throw at the wall.
There are stray voltages and thus currents that float around a system with a VFD. One of the paths the current takes is through the motor shaft and bearings to the motor frame and to ground. The symptom of this is pitted bearing races. Get a shaft grounding ring (Aegis makes them) and attach it to the motor. Lastly if you can always use an inverter duty motor (premium efficiency). They have better insulation and can withstand the heat generated when using the VFD. Your motor will last longer.
Another point is,rotary phase converters are practically bulletproof.I know of two that I built thirty years ago that have been running trouble free.On the other hand, I think I can conservatively say, I have replaced over 200 VFDs in that same time period.
@@michael931 It was a very dusty environment,running on 460 volts,running motors that were undersized and,subject to locking up.nearly all of them had cooling fans.In the summer months,the temperature in the building typically stayed around 120°F.Not a pleasant environment for man or,machine.
What almost everyone overlooks is that a motor driven by a VFD still has *the same power at all speeds* and the lower the speed the higher the torque and vice versa, just like when the speed is changed by mechanical means like a gearbox. Therefore if the motor shaft is indirectly coupled to the machine through a 3-jaw coupler, belts, chains or whatever those may need to be upgraded to stronger ones if the motor is going to run at lower speeds than before having a VFD.
Keith, what a great addition! If the designers of these machines could have gone down to the local electric supply house, they would have done so. Having the soft acc and dec is really a nice benefit, but overall speed control is the cats meow. In our shop we have several brands, saftronics, private labeled by yaskawa, yaskawa, and allen bradley, they have all worked well. In your case to just control the motor speed, i think the option you went with is just fine. I am looking forward to seeing this machine make some chips👍🏽💪🏽🇺🇸
I wondered what happened to that infernal steam stoker engine. I figured you and Adam Booth took it down to the river one night and made it go away. LOL
Another important difference when using a rotary converter you can keep the machine controls intact. Just like a "real" three phase you just wire it up and go. With a VFD you will need to rewire your controls to send the start/stop signals to the VFD.
This is splitting hairs, but the VFD’s that I have used take the acceleration setting as a constant value. When you reduce the speed, you are also reducing the length of time it takes to accelerate to the setpoint speed. If you have the minimum speed set to zero and the maximum speed set to 60 Hz, and the acceleration set to 5 seconds, if you reduce the speed to 30 Hz and restart it will take 2.5 seconds to reach 30 Hz. I like the Lenze/AC Tech VFDs. We had about 8 at the company I worked for. When I retired, I bought one of their single phase input models for myself to put on the 3 phase Bridgeport I was setting up. It works great!
dairy farms have many vfd's to drive motors from 3/4hp to 15hp sometimes its for lowering monthly electric costs sometimes they're needed for fine setting of feed unloading sometimes where a motor cycling on/off 24/7 is sending out stray voltage a vfd fixes that usually set no lower than 11hz or the motor stalls and only issue ive noticed during thunderstorms if power flickers or goes out the smaller vfd's go back to default settings and/or trip out so there has to be a on/off power disconnect close for the vfd or you'll never get it up & running again
Got a lathe and 2 mills, all on individual VFD..I just use the cheap Chinese ones, the 3Hp lathe and the 3Hp mill VFD was about 60$ each and the 5Hp mill was 150$.. The cheapest 5HP rotary converter I could find is close to 600$.. And I like speed control for the lathe..
Oh man, are you selling tickets to see the stoker on this machine? I'd seriously consider flying out for that (and I hate to fly, but not enough to get arrested ).
Steam Stoker in the New Haven? I KNEW IT! YAY!!! and I still think it's interesting that the New Haven needs power to gradually ramp up like someone is opening a gate to a water turbine. I know it's probably due to the design demand of the day. Thankfully a VFD can mimic that.
3:45 That pushbutton switch fits perfectly. You don't want that planer to look like it's in the 1800s, you want it to look like it's from the 1800s, but experienced the 1900s. Having that story of how this machine survived the 1900s adds so much. I love to see how machines have been upgraded and improved over time. You can bet the machinists in the 1800s would have loved electric drive, and then loved 10x having VFD electric drive.
@@justphilipp04 ...What is that nonsense?
I am the VFD programmer at my place of work, so I went with used Allen-Bradley Powerflex VFDs for my home shop. My surface grinder has something like a 60 second rampup time (so I can skip the motor pulses for startup), and the mill/lathe VFDs have breaking resistors on them. The mill comes to a complete stop 0.5s after turning off the switch, and the lathe with the big chuck stops in 2 or 3 seconds. Once you use a tool with a breaking resistor you won't want to go back. I needed to use a 6" hole saw on stainless once which needed 25RPM, but a Bridgeport can only go to 60RPM, so cutting the VFD to 25Hz brought me right there.
Excellent, Keith! You are one of the few that seem to recognize what huge advantages VFDs are for use on machinery, particularly older machines and motors. I've had zero issues with either of 2 VFDs on a 1970's DeValliere lathe and a 1943 Cincinnati No 2MH Universal mill. More of us should learn about VFDs. One key advantage is that the soft start will reduce wear on machinery by reducing the startup shock. You can also simply listen for resonances in the motor and find a more ideal max speed. After older machines have been run at 60 Hz for decades, the bearings can actually develop patterns of wear that increase vibration at 60 Hz. By adjusting the max speed slightly above or below 60 Hz, you can find where the motor and bearing operate more quietly and extend the life of those parts.
"One key advantage is that the soft start will..." Pretty much the reason I didn't go for a VFD ! My lathe, for whatever reason, has an instant reverse switch and so it's a feature I wanted to keep.
And for the price today just the control options make them the way to go. I have a 5HP on the Causing lathe and a 3Hp on the Cinci Toolmaster Mill. Both ChiCom too. 3 years of at least 20 or more hours a week on the Clausing and 10 anyway on the Toolmaster Not so much as a hickup. We have a Rotary Converter and do use it for other machines like the Horizontal Mill and Powermatic Bandsaw, but I connected the Inverters on single phase. We only start the converter when we use one of the machines that do not have a VFD on them.
thay
There are just too many advantages to mention.(Like getting rid of the hydraulic Reeves drive on the Clausing) and at the price today it makes no seance to use anything else on anything the can benefit from speed control or remote switching. I don't care what the "experts" or keith say. If there is anything out there that works any different then the Chinese stuff that I got it could only work worse. Like I said, 3 years of industrial use without a hickup,,,,,and they cost less then an Allen Bradley Motor Starter would cost you. If you are worried get one for a spair,,,,,You Still will be cheaper then a "name brand" inverter. From where I am standing it looks like the part that is not created equal is the price.
@@mathewmolk2089 There is a lot of excellent electronic controllers available from China.
I used to use needle valve based flow controllers that cost $25 on the chain oilers I produce, until I found $5 programmable digital timers with displays and now I control the flow by setting the duty cycle of the solenoid valve. Never had one fail.
@@mathewmolk2089 are you able to share which specific Chinese VFD's you've had luck with? I got a cheap one (Topshak AT1-2200X) for $CAD 100 and so far it seems to be working well. I've only really used it to see if I could run a Hobart mixer and a 3HP motor destined for a wood lathe project. As near as I've been able to tell from the research I did some units have more involved control algorithms with torque/flux vector control that gives better results at lower speeds. The simpler V/f approach seems to be fine as long as you don't need more power at low speeds. At least that's my take. I'm reading through the comments here to get the all important 'real world' experience and results.
Keith, Senior Controls Engineer here, I design control systems for modern machinery. Your explanation is mostly good for non-technical persons and will most certainly work. However, there is more into determining the decision of a rotary phase converter over a VFD and I certainly can't give an adequate explanation of 30 years of knowledge in a few paragraphs. The one thing I would express to you is that for a standard 3 phase motor your minimum speed should be set around 20 hertz, 30 if you under a constant heavy load. Motors meant for use with a VFD can handle lower speeds. If you don't adhere to this you can burn up your motor.
Good luck and thank you for the videos I'm a big fan.
A twist to the overheating motor scenario in the case of the planer is that the planer's only a 45% duty cycle !
Further to Jerry's comment, the reason for limiting the frequency is that the motor-shaft-driven cooling fan doesn't provide enough air flow to cool the motor. A separately-driven motor cooling fan is often used in industrial applications requiring a wider motor speed range.
In books, Jerry, But in real life there is no problem with a motor that was not already on it's way out anyway. You really should put a fan on any VFD powered motor. ,,,,
Just FYI I got my degree in 1980 before there were any VFDs in common use (BTWm We are working on a 300HP machine now.= We are industrial electrical./Millwright contractors)
@@mathewmolk2089 A large part of my career was spent putting modern controls on old machinery and of course they didn't want to replace motors that have run just fine for the past 15 years. Lol. And yes if you're going to be running consistently at low speeds a separately controlled fan motor is recommended.
Such a great insight into how stuff was made many years ago. These old machines are so built like tanks, so to speak - so much over - engineering was put into things to make sure they lasted more than a lifetime. And more than a lifetime, as they can be refurbished and put out to pasture. The motor control devices these days are quite advanced, which consider the amount of torque available at low speeds, but overheating is always the limiting factor. Thank you for sharing, Keith. Take care you all, from England.
I bought an American Rotary phase converter on your recommendation. I am pleased.
Keith, as ever, great job explaining things. Sometimes, there is no substitution for many words. It's awesome that while you had a good setup for the planer, you were able to make it even better. I know you've got a lot of irons in the fire right now, with multiple projects needing to get done. Can't wait to see the 10EE come up in the queue. I also can't wait to see you put the tailstock back on the HBM, because I'm going to guess that getting that back true to the headstock is going to be some challenge. I never tire of seeing you bring back something that was headed for cast iron heaven and putting it to use. Stay healthy, be good, and see you for the next one.
Just a note worth writing, this Ironhorse VFD as well as any others: Keith said that it can run a 5HP 3 Phase motor.... or a 2 HP Single phase motor but that info was interpreted wrong, it actually means that the VFD will handle a 5 HP 3 Phase motor with 3 Phase Input....or a 2 HP 3 Phase motor with Single phase input.
VFDs are not designed to run single phase motors.
yes, syntax matters, that is correct.
@@nilzlima3027
Yep, it does! :-)
I just didn't want others to get the idea that they can control single phase motors on a VFD as Keith suggested.
CORRECT
@@AerialPhotogGuy I must say, I interoperated it as, single phase supply, to 3 phase motor 👍
When you get to single phase motors, some will work with a vfd, some will sort of work with a VFD and some won't work with a VFD.
I get the impression that VFD won't be very happy with a 1ph motor however, I'm sure you can get VFDs for single phase motors !
I recently restored a South Bend 13" lathe and am powering it with a VFD. The first VFD, which I bought for about $100 on Amazon, created a high-pitched whine in the motor. My wife found it disturbing from 2 floors away. I ended up replacing it with a $380 unit from a local motor specialty shop. This too makes a high-pitched whine, but at a very much lower level. The difference between the two VFDs is the maximum "carrier" or "PWM" frequency. For the cheap unit, it's 10,000 Hz and for the more expensive unit, it's 15,000 Hz. This makes all the difference in the world when running my lathe. I think your comments about the economics of VFDs versus rotary phase converters are spot-on.
Have you checked if you can change the PWM-frequency? You won't get a VFD without PWM control, but sometimes you can set it to a frequency above the hearing range (which usually ends at 20 kHz, or lower for older people). Especially on old motors with loosely wound windings (not potted) some of the wires can get into resonance with the PWM frequency and start swinging. But be aware that the power rating gets reduced a little when using higher switching frequencies.
@@CatNolara Yes, you can adjust the PWM frequency on both units. However, the cheaper unit only goes up to 10,000 Hz and the better unit goes up to 15,000 Hz. Some units go higher which may be better still.
Good explanation! In the early '80s I was a Sales Engineer for a Mill and Industrial Supply house here in Atlanta for five years. Got the opportunity to spend time with many of our suppliers training on their equipment. Airline flights and hotels on the company dime. Can't beat getting paid AND learning at the same time! ;) One was Reliance Electric. To make a long story short I went to their training facility somewhere in Ohio (IIRC, there were many trips all over) and spent a week going through the same training program their field service techs got. Everything from motors and mechanical speed controllers to VFDs and highly programmable speed control devices. Conveyor drives, you name it. Every day at that job was an adventure! I never knew when I walked in in the morning what the day would bring! ;)
I have a small shop and I have used a static phase converter to power an old drill press and a horizontal mill. I only use one or the other so it works out well... They are both 2 HP...
Really excited to hear about the Stoker Engine after all this time has passed, and that the shaper table will have a role to play. Thank you Keith!
You⁶⁶no
GOOD ADVICE Keith on which to choose. looking forward to the Stoker Engine.
That was an education. I personally do not have any machines that run on three phase. At least at the moment. I had to chuckle when you commented on the "one time" purchase of a three phase machine. Thank you for such a thorough explanation of VFDs.
Thanks for that explanation Keith. I always get a qualified sparky in to work on our electrics BUT it is great to understand what it is they are talking about/doing. Understanding this sort of thing helps me have at least a reasonable conversation with specialists.
I always get an electrician for anything more complicated than wiring a single pole two throw switch.
that is why he had me do the stuff, not a bad idea.
I use a VFD on my little Logan lathe, but since in my shop area it would be difficult to run run 240 I found a VFD made by WEG that actually runs off of 120v single phase power and steps up the voltage to 240v 3 phase. It works great, will power up to a 1-1/2 hp motor which is the right size for a lot of the smaller hobby machines those of us with small shops have. They're under $250 and made in Brazil, which I guess is a step up from China. Neat little unit, I haven't had any issues with mine in the three years or so I've had it. The model is CFW300A06P0S1NB20.
Thought I would share since there are probably some others like me who didn't really know you can use a VFD to run your small 3 phase motor on 120v power. Before I found my VFD I was looking at swapping the motor or trying to run a new 220v circuit , both of which would have been much more expensive and time consuming, plus you get all the traditional VFD benefits for controlling the motor.
@mechanical turk, I appreciate your comment and the direct part number reference. I spent a lot of time looking through the automation direct site, and it seems they also ship to Canada.
I have a older Clausing drill press - 5 speed with step pulley - 3 phase motor - and use a VFD because my home shop has single phase power. Soft start and better RPM control a big plus over my old Delta drill press. Very happy with my drill press upgrade.
Very stoked that the “Stoker Engine” is queued-up for a future video….Thanks Keith!
I love that planer, nice job Keith.
I agree, Keith. To many guys will try to go low-ball on the get-go, only to find out what they bought won't cut the mustard later on. Lots of good info. Thanks for the video. See you at the Bar-Z. Jon
nice intro to phase converters and VFDs. Congrats on getting this rebuild completed and ready to work!!
Good on you to revive the old iron
Love my "American Rotary Phase Converter" running Monarch Lathe, Doall Band Saw, Brown and Sharp Surface Grinder, and Wells Index Milling Machine all
inspired from your chanel. Actually have started doing some jobs for friends. So much fun, thank you for the great info.
You just forgot to video your work ;)
The manual comment was right on! My second VFD (chinese) came with a manual that was literally an inch thick. It was actually very readable (not "chinglish"), but it had no index, and it kept reusing diagrams with minor changes. I only needed the info on 4 pages, but it took me about five hours to nail down those pages. If the actual English had been been bad also, it might have taken at least twice as long. My first VFD was also chinese, but it came with a large foldout diagram that was easy to read.
My favorite EE professor had a grant to develop a VFD for use in semiconductor production machinery. This was in the mid 60s.
This video is yet more proof that the claim of "1 size fits all" is NONSENSE. Thumbs up!
Thanks Keith this video answered all my questions about phase converters & VFDs. I never miss any of your videos.
Great explanation on VFD and rotary phase converter. Thanks.
VFD's brilliant bit of kit got one my lathe and one on the mill.
What a great job describing the ins and outs of VFDs and the rationale behind using a VFD for phase conversion vs a "real" rotatory phase converter. Your video style makes learning an enjoyable pastime (I'm retired). Seeing new progress in the stoker engine will be nice too!
I love this project. It's a nice mix of old tech mixed with new tech.
Thanks Keith for the very detailed explanation of the VFD didn't really know the the real differences between them and rotary converters
I just installed Automation Direct"s DuraPulse VFD. The documentation and videos are awesome! Quick setup and explained well.
Very reasonably priced as well.
Keith, I would set your minimum frequency to 20Hz unless you are using an inverter duty motor. The lower in frequency you go, the lower the speed the motor runs and the less it is able to cool itself. If you run it for extended periods of time at low RPM, you can burn up the windings in the motor.
Also, I am really surprised to see a VFD if that brand with Safe-Torque. Very surprising as this is usually only found in much higher grade VFD's.
Normally a VFD will try to reduce voltage with lower speeds though. On some you can even set the voltage for zero speed.
@@CatNolara VFD's vary frequency to adjust speed, not voltage. 3 phase motors are synchronous motors, that means the poles of the motor are "in sync" with the sinusoidal wave form of the 3-phase AC line. As each phase begins to rise in the windings, the pole of the rotor aligns with the rising magnetic field on that winding. The magnetic field rising in the winding aligning with the pole on the rotor is where synchronous speed of the motor comes from. Adjusting the voltage, would not affect the speed, only the overall power of the motor; and it would not affect the power all that well, it would just force current to rise to support the magnetic field to the point where the coil no longer saturates due to the falling voltage; not enough voltage to then support the current flow.
The reactance of the Inductive part of the motor is smaller with lower drive frequencies and the counter-emf is lower with a lower motor speed. The phase currents will be greater and the power in the windings will be greater (without cooling from the integral fan). The 3-phase motor used is an induction motor not a synchronous motor. The speed difference between rotor and stator induces currents in the squirrel cage of the stator to produce the magnetic field for torque. A 3-phase 12-pole motor will run somewhere between 1800 rpm at no load and 1750 rpm at rated torque.
@@steveschulte8696 Induction motors sure are synchronous in that the magnetic fields try and sync with each other. They never will obviously due to the mismatch in phase vs pole count so there always will be rotor slip so never will be completely in sync other than every pole/field multiple.
@@StreuB1 Sorry, but that's not right. Most VFDs do vary the voltage depending on frequency, normally you set a max voltage and a reference frequency (usually 50 or 60 Hz) and the VFD interpolates the voltage for lower frequencies. You should search for the V/f curve, that should explain it. Because of lower emf at lower speed the current would increase up to the point of burning the coils, but if you decrease the voltage simultanously the current should stay roughly the same if configured correctly. So the voltage ramps up linearly with frequency up to the max voltage and stays constant for frequencies above that.
THANK YOU!!! I was always confused by the difference between VFD and Phase Converters and you explained it so clearly. Much appreciated Keith.
Very well put Keith. You explained it better than everyone. I purchased 2 single phase input VFD's, Hitachi brand and love them. Thanks.
Keith,
I am an electrician. I think that you did an admirable job explaining VFD three phase applications for the hobbiest. You readily admit that you are not an electrician by trade. I grant you a measure of tolerance for any slightly errant statements in this explanation. You essentially got it right and we'll stated. VFD'S in my experience are not intended to be mounted outside of an electrical enclosure. Your description of this Iron Horse indicates that this unit does not require the enclosure. Since this uncommon to my experience, this is a big advantage in that you don't have to build a cabinet with adequate ventilation for heat management. Sometimes the heat sink (exchanger) can extend to the outside of the enclosure reducing the enclosure operating temperature.
Rotary phase converters can run multiple 3 phase motors, as you stated. Any already running 3 phase motors actually "add" to the rotary phase conversion. Note that they are rated with a range of HP. I believe this rating is the largest motor load the rotary phase converter can start, add the larger number is the max total HP that can be simultaneously connected. If you have a shop with multiple 3 phase loads running on a single rotary phase converter you probably should install a 3 phase load center with adequate breaker space for all connected machines. Then 3phase power can be supplied to each load following NEC guidelines. The cheapest and crudest system (that I currently employ in my shop) is to use portable cord with a cord connect twist lock plug on the load side of the rotary phase converter. I just move my three phase plug/cord to the 3 phase machine that I want to run. Each machine is already wired with internal motor control and protection. I work alone in my shop and I have no requirement to ever run two machines at the same time. My wood lathe uses VFD for three phase generation, motor speed control and adds motor reversing function that was not included in the original machine design. I have 6 metal working machines that currently are served by swapping the cord.
Paul - boxed VFDs could be a 'Pond' thing. The VFDs in England all seem to b self-contained units - basically mount to the wall as they are, no need for enclosures or additional cooling fans.
Interesting about the '3 ph load center' - I guess it's what we know as a distribution board. I think Keith doesn't have a specific issue for the same reason you don't - a one-man operation so fairly unlikely two machines running at the same time BUT the planer is a machine suited for unattended running for extended periods of time - offering up the potential of leaving that running while using another machine. I can't remember what HP Keith's rotary converter will power but I'd say definitely 2 machines, possibly 3-4 depending on the size of the motors. As long as the power distribution wiring is heavy enough, it shouldn't be a problem even if not quite to 'code'.
I was quite undecided how to provide 3ph power to my equipment. I thought I had 3 3ph machines: lathe, mill, welder - so I made a junction box with 3 outlets - one for the mill, one for the lathe and a spare. It turns out the welder is only single phase but can be run on 3ph voltage !
My 3ph static converter went bang last time it was powered up. My dad had got it and I gotta say, I never really liked it. For one, it required 'tuning' to the load - and that was via an 8 position rotary knob. It also turns out that it reduces motor HP to 2/3 actual value, it seems - so I decided not to get it fixed. My lathe has an instant motor reverse lever - which I knew the VFDs wouldn't like - although it might be a VFD would be happy to instantly reverse a motor - but I've not had that confirmed yet. At the time, this ruled those out for me. Also, the fact it's electronics - and I've broken cast iron with electronics - and I could easily break electronics too ! So I was considering the rotary converter route - and seemed to find out there are 2 types and those selling the things weren't clear as to what they were selling. Whether it was the cheap 'rotary converter' that uses and idler motor to create a third phase or whether it was a rotary transformer - a motor and generator in the same casing with suitably peculiar windings for the motor and the generator side. I'd have liked to have found a proper MG set - possibly belt driven rather than direct drive as I could then vary the generator speed - hence varying the 3ph frequency. I couldn't find what I'd be happy with - like that - so in the end, to be sure of decent 3ph, I got a proper generator - attached to a diesel engine ! This now doubles up as emergency power for the house. As such, it's even more quirky as I'll need to distribute the house load across 3 phases! So my distribution box is not only fitted with 3 3ph outlets, it's fitted with 3 1ph outlets, 3 ammeters, a DOL starter (with overload protection to suit the generator) and a 3ph RCD ! (GCFI)
@@millomweb Lots of ways to "skin a cat".
I have run my infrequently used machine shop loads via my home built rotary phase converter and only ran my wood lathe with a VFD. I keep adding to the machine shop inventory. I built a new shop (4800 ft2) just for all things metal and mechanical. I am keeping my old shop for exclusive woodworking. One of my wood lathes is 3 phase, and I will keep it serviced by the VFD. I decided to set up the new shop with a factory built rotary phase converter servicing the machine tools with a single cord as stated. I just bought a big American Pacemaker that I suspect will overload my existing set up. I bought a larger rotary phase converter that needs the control wiring repaired. It might be large enough to service the Pacemaker. I underestimated the American Pacemaker machine weight and I don't have provision to rig it off of the truck (9500 #). My lifting capacity at home is 3T. Access to the motor is not currently possible since it is staged against a wall. So I am guessing at the lathe's motor size. If this lathe proves to be what I need and want, I will probably invest in a 3 phase panel and adequately sized rotary phase converter to run existing equipment and provide room for growth. Old iron 3 phase machinery increases my buying opportunity, reduces bidding competition, and assures that I am buying industrial class equipment.
All of this is just for my hobby pleasure. I don't know how far I will take my hobby. I am still setting up the new shop. I moved in on Jan 1. No heat in the new shop yet and open heart surgery has limited my shop time. I maintained CNC machinery in my career. I am taking great pleasure building an extensive shop and teaching myself manual machining in my retirement. I lived under an acquisition freeze when I only had the mixed disciplines shop as I ran out of space. The new building is expected to never limit my acquisition passions.
@@paulhunt598 Will you make a YT channel out of your endeavours ? Sounds like it needs one ;)
Buying acquisitions - you mean like a bigger crane :)
As for the Pacemaker overloading the converter, it depends ;) Obviously the biggest load will be starting the motor. You could ease that with a star-delta starter. Providing the rotary is up to providing full load current there are a number of bodge options.
That VFD he bought is rated NEMA 4X. That is why the box. Standard VFD's are typically N1. (It is a S100 from LS Electric BTW).
@@millomweb A bigger crane is an option. I have a home built and unrated gantry frame that I got from work years ago. I am not an engineer, but I think it has adequate steel for 5T capacity, but I built it years ago from shop scrap to service a 1T motorized trolley hoist. I am not certain that I want to upgrade to 5T hoist and trolley and tie up shop floor space for an otherwise unnecessary capacity. My 3T gantry is factory built and rated. It moves easily through the shop and has a smaller footprint. I think that future machines will be within my 3T capacity. I would love a full service bridge crane (I am partial towards Gorbel), but my shop is intended for hobby pleasure. I need some restraint on my spending!
I’m excited to see that stocker finished it’s been one heck of a project
I really like the soft start and braking features of the VFD, more than the speed control. Love that planer Keith!
just remember there is more than one method of breaking using this vfd, there is a spot to wire in a shunt resistor/ reactor for high dynamic load breaking or if the load is small you can use the drives speed control. this is application dependent.
Great video Keith. That planer is a thing of beauty.
Thanks so much for unpacking a very complex subject, 3 phase vs VFD
Stoked to hear about upcoming projects on the planer.
We used alot VFD's on 600v motor where I worked and worked on them like your video
Thank You Keith for the videos. I really enjoy watching the different processes.
English is not my native language and I learned it "late". But the way you convey knowledge, it doesn't need translation help.
Very, very well and effectively explained. The advice is also very useful in my opinion.
I live in the comfortable situation of having 400 V, 50 HZ, 3 phase AC here in my home, but still run a VFD to regulate the speed of a lathe. Reversing the V-belts is usually too much work, but necessary now and then.
Best regards, Raik
Another great thing about VFD'S besides saving money on electrical energy drives with their ability to do a ramp up start definitely prolongs gear boxes. Back in the 1980 we had a 5 HP Reeves combination motor & variable speed Reeves belt. It was inside a machine and always took 8 hours to replace no matter who did it. Reeves drive would never last more then 18 months. Went to a three motor bolted to a gear box feed by a VFD that had a 10 second ramp up time and maybe a 1.5 second ramp down . Motor & new gear box was still running great ten years later. We always had a great very knowledgeable tech for Candles perform all start ups. Only charged maybe $200 and extended free parts & Labor to 3 years. He had a one inch thick book just for programming that book that came with drives might only be 40 pages. In our newest building all motors 40 HP & higher were 18 pulse style of VFD. 250 HP Fire pump had a soft starter. Best practice is to mount drives in a clean not overheated area and blow them out and clean filters twice a year. Surprise d that you do not have three phase service. Have worked in machine shops where they had a 200 to 800 amp 240 volt three phase service and a 100 to 200 amp service for lightning and general 120 volt receptacles. Not a fan of having single drive feeding two machines. Prices have really came down over the years. Did power up four 1 HP conveyors from one drive on a packing line. If a few people did not show up for work that day they would run line slower.
I would wire the pilot light to indicate if the power is on (and thus the Start button is live and will start the motor) rather than if the motor is running (which one can tell visually). I would also program the speed adjustment to some minimum speed so the motor can't be "on" but going so slow you don't see it moving.
Re the pilot light - I totally agree - it should be lit whenever the go button will actually start the machine. Comes in handier if the machine has multiple latching stop buttons - so you know they're all unlatched without having to start it.
As for the second point, I'd be interested to see a machine manually ramped up from 0 as it'd be interesting to see how slow it would go (for a short time!). I daresay the current would be higher than the motor was designed. As per your suggestion, I'd guess 10 Hz for a minimum for a start.
You are correct about a minimum speed. Motor cooling can be a problem. Below 20HZ the motor can over heat due it’s internal cooling fan not supplying sufficient cooling air to cool the motor, hot environments compound the problem. A DC motor works better at slower speeds when a motor is limited at 20HZ. Starting torque and motor inrush current is also a consideration, adding a 5hp VSD to an existing 5hp motor will not work without a soft start. On a 5hp existing application we would increase to 7.5hp (1.5X) and use a 10hp VSD. With VSDs you have to do your homework and work with supplier, we learned the hard way during their infancy.
@@staticguy5554 I think I'm glad I went for a diesel generator. Basic, robust and proper 3 phase. It may not have been the best option but is possibly the 'safest'.
Really nice part of history.
A year or so ago we retrofitted our Apex 20” disc sander at work to a VFD to eliminate the old barrel switch that was toast. It’s much safer because the direction can’t be changed until the rotation stops and it now has dynamic braking to stop it in about 60 seconds instead of 15 minutes (without using a block of wood). We always run it at full speed. It was a great upgrade but our supplier recommended changing the motor out because the existing one was an old design that wouldn’t stand up long with a VFD. We have three phase power and the new motor (2hp) was cheaper than the VFD.
Thanks very much Keith, great explanation regarding RFC or VFD.
Thanks Keith, the VFD is a mystery and this video really explains everything clearly. Appreciate your help.
lets add to your confusion with some diy fun from marius hornburger: th-cam.com/video/BcERn4mJONc/w-d-xo.html
I got a VFD to put on my 1.5HP lathe, but then somehow I ended up with a mill and a surface grinder. The mill had a single phase motor, but that was burned out, and the surface grinder was 3 phase. Looking at my options a 3ph replacement for the mill was going to be cheaper so now with 3 machines in the shop I just decided to get a rotary phase converter.
Nice progress Keith, it runs nice and quietly.
Nice choice on the switch panel, good fit for the machine!
I use Mitsubishi D700 and Allen Bradley PowerFlex VFDs at work. Of the two, Mitsubishi ones seem to hold up better. But we're using them for running conveyors and rotary cam indexers in robot welding cells... very different application. At least the Mitsubishi ones are easy (enough) to program... and most/all of the I/O is configurable.
There great VFD motor controllers they do have advantages and disadvantages but over all just great.Sometimes can cause clogging or erratic motor operation.
Great info Keith, keep'um coming..
Automation Direct has wonderful technical support department based in Cummin Georgia. Their website and TH-cam channel have several quality tutorials.
If an application requires finer speed selection, a multi turn potentiometer rather than a single turn is a great solution.
Thank you for the continuing stellar content!
Brilliant use of that controller! Your shop is truly a wonder.
Thanks for another excellent vid Keith! got a 5 hp rotary converter on my lathe and mill, I couldnt justify the extra cost of vfd, the old original motors have been snapping on and off full power since the 60s and I dont see that hurting the motors anytime soon. I totally agree with you using one on the planer with the flat belt drive. No doubt its much less likely to throw the belts off with the soft start.
My Monarch 10EE was converted to run on a 3 Phase 5HP AC motor and a 3Phase VFD. Used a potentiometer connected to the original lathe speed control to adjust the speed so it looks and and is controlled exactly as original. I could have programed the VFD to run the motor at the 4,000 RPM spindle speed the DC motor turned but didn't. I didn't need that. I have heard from people that the slow speed setting on the VFD would significantly reduce the torque but I haven't experienced it. Have never had the lathe stall at very low speeds. Works just fine in my shop.
Verry good explanation of the factors involved with VFD or 3 phase power. Always enjoy your channel.
Whew! Thank you, Sir. There is so much to consider.
Great explanation.
Most of Canada before the late 1940' used o be on 50 Hz ... While Toronto was on 25 Hz ..
A HUGE program in the early 1950's changed appliances and radios etc to 60 Hz standard, and we could share the grid with the USA! ... So smart to do that when labour was cheap! :) it cost Millions even back then. It has been a HUGE advantage for both our countries! :)
Life is so much easier here (Sweden) where three phase is the default to get. Even the previous single room apartment I lived in had three phases.
That said, VFDs are awesome - I'm updating a Russian lathe from the 80's and the plan is to use a VFD to get variable rpm and connect it to a microcontroller to get constant cutting speed like on a CNC (I have constructed my own measuring device using an arduino).
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Good advice
Gawd! What some folks won't do to avoid a little math and casting new pulleys. Nice fix!
GREAT episode!! very interesting!!!
Not to promote a particular brand but I frequently use Automation Direct VFD’s. Not the best VFD out there but for the money they are a pretty good deal. One suggestion is to utilize the power dissipation resistor option for better electronic breaking. It comes in handy if you want to implement an E-Stop that stops the machine rapidly.
Good information. Also Clough42 has a great series on wiring up a VFD for a lathe, with all the programming steps … also informative
Very nice explination!
The vfd reads the voltage change from the potentiometer and depending on what you have programmed the control voltage the changes in the control power coming from the potentiometer it takes that and changes the frequency to slow down and speed up the motor
Nice!! "Let's make the most of the beautiful day..."
Great info about a common topic people have questions about!
My Hitachi VFD will run two different motors. I have it on my Bridgport that runs the j head or the shaper head. Just unplug one head plug in the other head and flip the selector switch to the appropriate head and all the settings change accordingly. I’m an electrician with controls background and it took me weeks messing with all the settings to figure it all out and get it dialed in.
They are all much more forgiving then the collage boys would lead you to believe. It really is not rocket science,,,,Even programing from a Chinglish manual is not as hard as some make out; Just be ready to spend some time and have a few soft unbreakable things to throw at the wall.
There are stray voltages and thus currents that float around a system with a VFD. One of the paths the current takes is through the motor shaft and bearings to the motor frame and to ground. The symptom of this is pitted bearing races. Get a shaft grounding ring (Aegis makes them) and attach it to the motor. Lastly if you can always use an inverter duty motor (premium efficiency). They have better insulation and can withstand the heat generated when using the VFD. Your motor will last longer.
Another point is,rotary phase converters are practically bulletproof.I know of two that I built thirty years ago that have been running trouble free.On the other hand, I think I can conservatively say, I have replaced over 200 VFDs in that same time period.
Wow. I've never heard of a VFD going bad except when they were miswired or repeatedly forced to drive a seized motor.
@@michael931 It was a very dusty environment,running on 460 volts,running motors that were undersized and,subject to locking up.nearly all of them had cooling fans.In the summer months,the temperature in the building typically stayed around 120°F.Not a pleasant environment for man or,machine.
What almost everyone overlooks is that a motor driven by a VFD still has *the same power at all speeds* and the lower the speed the higher the torque and vice versa, just like when the speed is changed by mechanical means like a gearbox.
Therefore if the motor shaft is indirectly coupled to the machine through a 3-jaw coupler, belts, chains or whatever those may need to be upgraded to stronger ones if the motor is going to run at lower speeds than before having a VFD.
Keith, what a great addition! If the designers of these machines could have gone down to the local electric supply house, they would have done so. Having the soft acc and dec is really a nice benefit, but overall speed control is the cats meow. In our shop we have several brands, saftronics, private labeled by yaskawa, yaskawa, and allen bradley, they have all worked well. In your case to just control the motor speed, i think the option you went with is just fine. I am looking forward to seeing this machine make some chips👍🏽💪🏽🇺🇸
Excellent explanation like always. !!!!!!!!!!!
Great work! Great explanation!
I wondered what happened to that infernal steam stoker engine. I figured you and Adam Booth took it down to the river one night and made it go away. LOL
very enjoyable viewing, as usual.
Nice video, and good answers
Another important difference when using a rotary converter you can keep the machine controls intact. Just like a "real" three phase you just wire it up and go. With a VFD you will need to rewire your controls to send the start/stop signals to the VFD.
Great video! We’ll explained!
I learned a lot thank you
Really good info. Thanks!
Looks more useable with the slower speed.
We use vfds on our tornado sirens up to 14hp AC and they fo pretty good...
This is splitting hairs, but the VFD’s that I have used take the acceleration setting as a constant value. When you reduce the speed, you are also reducing the length of time it takes to accelerate to the setpoint speed.
If you have the minimum speed set to zero and the maximum speed set to 60 Hz, and the acceleration set to 5 seconds, if you reduce the speed to 30 Hz and restart it will take 2.5 seconds to reach 30 Hz.
I like the Lenze/AC Tech VFDs. We had about 8 at the company I worked for. When I retired, I bought one of their single phase input models for myself to put on the 3 phase Bridgeport I was setting up. It works great!
that depends on the drive some have you set a an accel rate so the rate is always the same regardless of the speed input, again RTFM.
Thanks good info
dairy farms have many vfd's to drive motors from 3/4hp to 15hp sometimes its for lowering monthly electric costs sometimes they're needed for fine setting of feed unloading sometimes where a motor cycling on/off 24/7 is sending out stray voltage a vfd fixes that usually set no lower than 11hz or the motor stalls and only issue ive noticed during thunderstorms if power flickers or goes out the smaller vfd's go back to default settings and/or trip out so there has to be a on/off power disconnect close for the vfd or you'll never get it up & running again
part of the reason all these machines have a cord and plug to pull when not in use. good point.
Got a lathe and 2 mills, all on individual VFD..I just use the cheap Chinese ones, the 3Hp lathe and the 3Hp mill VFD was about 60$ each and the 5Hp mill was 150$..
The cheapest 5HP rotary converter I could find is close to 600$..
And I like speed control for the lathe..
With a strategically placed switch or two, you could have the VFD speed up on the return stroke.
Great video. Thanks for all that information 👍🏻
Oh man, are you selling tickets to see the stoker on this machine? I'd seriously consider flying out for that (and I hate to fly, but not enough to get arrested ).
Steam Stoker in the New Haven? I KNEW IT! YAY!!! and I still think it's interesting that the New Haven needs power to gradually ramp up like someone is opening a gate to a water turbine. I know it's probably due to the design demand of the day. Thankfully a VFD can mimic that.