I have a lot of equipment at home in a 16M x 8M shed. There is no way I will ever post a video online of my work as the number of people telling Keith how he should done the job is astounding. I have nowhere the experience Keith has so I would cop even more corrective advice. Hats off to Keith for continuing his projects in the face of all the "expert" comments.
Really good for you. We have to know our limitations. I have never minded asking for help. Weather it comes from a person, Google or the library. Keith is the first to admit we can't know it all eh.
Hi Keith. After an extended holiday, I'm catching up on my youtube playlist(s). My first observation is you appear to have lost weight; a lot of weight. You are looking good mate. I myself went from 100Kg (~220lb) to 80Kg (~176lb) in about 6 months, on advice from my orthopaedic surgeon; I had to get weight off my knees. Losing the weight has certainly made a big difference to my mobility, although I have had to buy new clothes!! Hope your experience has been as positive as mine. Like I said previously, you are looking really, really good. Well done buddy. Best wishes. Harry
Keith, 2 points : 1 - Let's say that you used .030" Turcite. This will raise the flat side of the tailstock .030" ( ignoring the epoxy for now ), and raise the angled ( V groove side ) up .0424". 2 - Don't you need to drill some oil passage holes through the Turcite ? Thanks, I enjoy your work, Al
Hi Keith, I have enjoyed your presentations for the last few years. I am in the process of rebuilding an Australian made 1960's Macson Lathe, and an Australian made Herless ( bridgeport clone) milling Machine. All you show is so relevant to what I need to know. Great to see you trim and fit too.
Keith, a fast and easy way we used to check/adjust tailstock was with mag base indicator mounted on headstock (or chuck) with indicator sweeping the tailstock spindle. Make sure clamp is tight as it changes measurment. Also turcite bad choice for clamping surface; better to shim between castings. Best regards in the new year!
I agree, but i would not use a mag base because of droop. I would put a short indicator holder in the jaws of the chuck and then sweep the inside taper of the tale-stock ram, and make my measurement. The wear of the Turkite is negligible for the use it will get and will not be an issue in our life time. I do love that you are repairing and refitting this older machine. Thanks for the great videos.
I have no particular expertise in this area buy I too thought he was going to shim between the halves. Was surprised to see the shim go on the surface that contacts the ways. Was the turcite an upgrade to the cast/steel wear surface in addition to obtaining the height addition that was required?
Wouldn’t a more proper and accurate way of measuring tailstock height be to use an alignment bar? Concur with the shimming aspect since this tailstock is split. Obviously, Keith isn’t concerned with precision on this machine. Hopefully Keith cleaned the bond line fraying surfaces with some sort of solvent prior to adhesive application. If not, I would have zero confidence in bond line integrity for this job. He must have done it off camera. Hate to be critical of Keith’s work here, but I have 36 years of manned spacecraft high reliability adhesive bonding behind me. I bonded Rulon onto my Hardinge HLVH tailstock after a bedplate regrind to restore alignment. It wasn’t an easy task which is why most, if not all Hardinge rebuilders shim the bedplate. The problem with that is it doesn’t address the tailstock wear. To completely address that, we fabricated an adjustable workholding fixture for the tailstock, machined a calculated amount off the contact surface, bonded the Rulon, machined the Rulon to within about 0.005 of final thickness. This left material for pitch adjustment via scraping. X-axis alignment was achieved by converting the gib to an adjustable type. The result far exceeds the Hardinge factory specs. The machine is no longer a Super Precision HLVH, rather it is an Ultra Precision HLVH. Again, Keith probably isn’t looking for that level of accuracy on this resto, nor does he need it.
I adjusted mine by adding a shim between the top and bottom base castings. That gave me another problem, I couldn't adjust out a taper I was cutting. I later discovered that my quill would lift as much as 0.008 (about the amount I'd added with the shim) when the lock was engaged. It turned out that wear on the quill was allowing it to 'droop,' but it would return to original height when you engaged the quill lock (which is of a different design than the one on this Monarch). For others that may start checking for misalignment (vertically), I suggest that you do so with the tailstock clamped to the bed, quill extended to where you have it for turning between centers, and the quill lock engaged ... basically having everything as they would be while turning a long part.
I was about to suggest shim stock between lower and upper sections, as well. The quill “lifting” due to wear would have happened even if you shimmed with turcite at the ways. Something else for Keith to check as he reassembles his tailstock.
Shimming between the tail stock castings also puts the shim where there is much less regular motion, and much less wear. The ways have motion almost every time the lathe is used.
@@stevenslater2669 I can only guess, but I think the tailstock sat in one spot during the time of it's heaviest use. Lots of center drilling. The wear causes the quill to drop, the lock lifts it back when it is engaged. After taking things apart and cleaning, I did a check (shim removed) with the quill fully extended and locked. It is pretty much the same, along the top, for it's full length of about 9". I'd assumed that the off center condition I'd seen while center drilling was due to wear on the ways to the bed, and shimmed to bring it closer to the center of whatever is chucked in it. That assumption came back to bite me, suddenly I couldn't adjust things to get rid of a taper I was getting. That little bit of lift of the part center axis, on that end, affected depth of cut along the part, enough that a good bearing fit at the tailstock end turned into "too loose" nearer the headstock (the end where I usually check/set my tool height).
@@edbennett8257 I suspect this lathe spend a long time on a production run, with the tailstock locked in one place. A lot of out and in for drilling being part of that. With 9" of available travel, that would have been easier to do over constantly moving the whole tailstock (it is a really heavy one). Part of why I call it "The Old Warrior." The location of wear (the cross slide is really worn also) and all the nicks/dings I found. It looks like someone had a chuck come loose on the spindle at one time, and the part and chuck did a violent dance on the bed ... thankfully, not where the carriage rides. And there are the remains of a scotch key on the spindle, I assume put there to prevent such an incident from happening again. Eight years, and I'm still finding battle scars on this one.
At around 2:00, Keith adjusts the side to side and around 6:00 when the tailstock seperates, you can see the adjusting lugs hanging down off the top half of the tailstock. If the shim was added between the halves, those lugs wouldn't line up with the holes in the bottom. Different tailstock designs may allow the shim to be placed in between though, and I agree that may be a better location as then the shim wouldn't be subject to wear. Andrew
@@andrewdalgarno5322 was wondering the same, would 30 thou difference really be that bad? You could propably widen the holes for the bolts a little to make it fit again.
I wondered the same thing. The flat rises by the thickness of the turcite. The V rises (thickness)/(sin 45) or about 1.4 times the thickness, introducing a tilt that may not matter. I think the reasoning is that since the bottom of the base doesn't fit the flat way properly the oil grooves would be hanging off the side and not lubricate the way properly. The oil grooves in the turcite will keep the oil on the way.
Martel stock on my 612 has a oil reservoir that feeds down to a hole into those grooves. It looked like yours had the hole also. There is a hole down low that you fill the oil in to the little cup reservoir inside
Great video, I was a laborer at Cincinnati Gilbert, here in Cincinnati. I watched some of the men use tercite on different parts, It was cool how they would do it all by hand in 1977-1979 when I was there up to the strike.
I was looking forward to this episode as I was wondering how I would have approached the issue were I making the same modification. First off I would not have used the center method to establish the height difference between the HS and the TS. I would have turned a very accurate test bar in another lathe, one or two feet long, then mounted it between centers in this machine. Using a dial indicator or a height gauge on the top of the test bar I could very accurately establish the height offset. And if I were using a dial indicator I could also correct the side to side offset. But you said up front that this was a preliminary measurement, and for that what you did was fine. The big problem came in when you applied the mystery material to the V ways. If you apply some .030" material to the flat way you will achieve a rise of .030". But applying it to the V way will give you something in the range of an .040" rise. This may or may not work for you. It was me, I would have taken an entirely different approach. First thing, it is my belief that these tailstocks are individually fitted to each machine at the factory. I would have taken all the tailstock halves to the surface plate and I would have established if swapping halves might or might not result in the height you need. Unlikely but little extra work. If, as is likely, shimming is needed, I would have added the appropriate thickness of feeler gauge stock between the two halves, Yes that offset would also affect the adjusting mechanism but it is my guess that offset would get lost in the general low tolerance requirement of that relationship. Now if the height difference were much more, obviously this method would not work.
Hey Keith. I've been watching your videos for a long time. Curious why you didn't shim the tailstock casting instead? That's what I did on my mori seiki when I rebuilt it.
Keith, I'm a loyal viewer. I had a enough of a fright when you crossed the lids with the bases of the expoxy that I thought I would support viewer best practices with a comment. Accidently swaping the lids would cause both cans to set up while you store them. So I have a STRONG habit of making sure the lids and the cans are well associated on the bench. I might put a big red dot on the harderner lid and certainly keep them on the outside of their respective cans. Of course I was relieved that you un crossed the lids right back on to the right cans! 20 years of speacity adhesive and composite material work speaking here. Love your channel.
Use an indicator on the spindle to determine the exact value.Use a flat shim between the two parts of the tailstock. Peel apart shim stock is available at Mcmaster with .001 peel offs.
Some cheap paper plates and bowls from the picnic section of the grocery store for mixing epoxy and other chemicals will be the best 5 bucks you ever spent. I buy old silverware such as butter knives from the local thrift store for about 10 cents each and they make incredibly good mixing spatulas--clean with a wire wheel after or just toss em.
But the cast iron ways would still continue to wear with use of the lathe. The turcite wears longer than cast iron, so this increases the interval between repairs.
As others noted, wouldn't it be easier to shim the upper and lower halves for height. Scrap the way interface for oil retention; no need to plug your oil holes with epoxy and Turcite.
You are experienced, so will have factored into your scraping plans that using the same 30 thou. turcite on the v-way as on the flat-way has rotated the tailstock base. FYI for others : because the turcite strips applied to the 2 v-way surfaces are at an angle to the horizontal (45° assuming a 90° v-way) they have a greater vertical depth - the side with the v-way has gone up by 1.4 times the 30 thou. added (sqrt(2) is approx. 1.4) which will introduce edge-only contact areas along the 3 way surfaces. This will be partly disguised by the epoxy along those edges having been squeezed away by the rotated weight of the tailstock base. About 10 thou. would need to be scraped from the entire surface of both v-way turcite strips to remove the rotation that has been introduced. Alternatively, the edges of all 3 turcite strips where excessive contact has been introduced will need more scraped off to widen the turcite contact areas with the metal way surfaces.
Yes. I was thinking along these lines as well however the plastic will cold flow to maximize contact area on its own but using different thickness turcite would minimize fitting in. However the original machining of the tailstock would had to accommodate the same geometry and this is overthinking the problem
The cast iron ways on the underside of the tail stock are worn. They will continue to wear with continued use of the lathe. Turcite wears less than cast iron, so the tail stock will stay in alignment longer. Swimming the two halves does nothing to slow the wear rate of the ways.
I have heard that using Turcite on a tailstock offers clamping issues. I will be most interested if this is the case once you complete the job and try some high strength applications like drilling large holes etc. You are looking good. happy new year
If this was a major concern, I'm sure Keith wouldn't be using this product. He is a machinist after all. But, if you have concerns, then don't do it, go a different route. Cheers :)
@@Ham68229 I agree with you. Keith said in the video that he had done this before, so I am sure he is confident in the repair. The more important question is why dont all of these "experts" watch and listen to the video befor they comment?? Drives me crazy!!!!!
@Ham68229 Have to keep in mind he's a hobbyist (with a near unlimited budget), NOT a machinist, which is cool--just dont want people thinking this is how a professional would do it.
@@joshuavanmeerveld7230 Except he is a machinist at the museum he works at. Might want to do some research about the facts, he's stated that numerous times throughout his youtube history.
Should have taken the unit apart and cleaned the surfaces before the measurement, then put a collet in your head stock holding a piece of round bar. blue the end of the round bar and bring your tailstock center up against it. Turn the head stock and it will inscribe a circle on the end of the round bar- your height difference is half the diameter of the circle.
I use a certified test bar and DTI to align tailstock centers, as I often move the tailstock alignment when machining long tapers. Obviously the relative heights would not normally change but simply measuring vertically would achieve perfect alignment on the vertical axis.
I've used several lathes over the years that were out like the one you have. We almost never turned parts between centers. At that time I didn't know about trucite.
This works but why not make the height adjustable with super fine set screws between the halves just like lateral adjustment? Or just shim the upper to lower halves?
Tailstock alignment tool. Ground bar that will fit all the way thru the spindle hole. Make sure its straight. Drill the end to center on the tailstock. Then cut off that section making in about an inch. Face off both cut faces. Now you can chuck the long bar up and indicate it in. Hold the one inch piece and bring the tail stock forward . Now you can see which way the tail stock is misaligned in seconds. Allowing you to easily use shim stock for different lenght jobs in minutes. Heck you should be able to not only measure but feel and see the difference.
Keith, you have done an amazing job of restoration on this machine. It looks like new except for one thing... There are two small tubes, likely for oiling, that look like worms. Please, straighten them out. They have been beaten up it would seem. Such a perfect job everywhere else and then.... those tubes. Nice job in the turkite. Have a healthy, peaceful and prosperous New Year.
silly question but why not add the appropriate spacing between the upper and lower halfs of the tailstock where you could just machine it out of a piece of steel?
The cast iron surfaces will just continue to wear. Adding turcite to the ways will substantially reduce the wear rate, lengthening the time interval to the next time the tail stock would need attention
Hey Keith, I just remembered a high school printing project requiring carving linolieum with a tool which got used to print an image. Well, some the carving is done with a V - shaped tool which I think would make very nice grooves in Turcite! Progress!
I bought a Speedball linoleum cutter set after also doing it in junior-high-school! ['64(?)] Still have the two color print blocks for a hornet I did in class.
Keith, it looked like the oil feed hole on the flat side of the way was in a spot that's going to hang off the bed way. How are you going to get oil in your narrowed pattern? Or should I just wait for the next video?
Morning Keith, great video, the turcite should get you back track for the elevation of the tailstock. You probably have already a small oil groove leg on the flat side that when you finished up had not been put in yet. Wanted to be sure you had all of them prior to assembly. 🙂 Thanks for sharing.
This was very interesting. I knew on an academic level how this was done, but the specifics of how thin the turcite was, how well it would stick to the surface, how you would handle V ways, and the actual practical application have been a little bit of a mystery to me. I have experience here in our shop using Moglice wayliner, but that is a liquid that is poured in place. We've probably used 20 or 30 gallons of it over the last 25 years which is a pretty big number when our application only uses a 250 gram kit at a time. I can see the advantages of both methods.
I had the same thought. If the Turcite is 30 thou thick, then the V way side will be raised up about 42 thou, and the center will be raised up about 36 thou. In the scraping process I'm sure Keith will check the alignment of the centers and if indeed the tail center is higher than he wants he can scrape Turcite on the V way down to suit.
I know turcite can be scraped but in order to achieve a level tailstock where the horizontal adjustment does not have a vertical impact we have root 2 x thickness to contend with. Perhaps he is still a bit low and can add some shim to the flat way.
Hey Keith. Hope Christmas went well for you and yours. In the last video when you said that the centers of the spindle and tailstock looked to be out of alignment by about half an inch and you were talking about using Turcite to shim up the base, I started to think you'd slipped a gear somewhere. After watching this video I realized that the half inch was either misspoken or you were taking into account the lateral mismatch as well. Either way, what we saw here was WAY closer than that. Some have mentioned using precision setup bars to align the two, but you've done enough lathe setups on this channel that I wasn't worried about you coming up with a good, usable, acceptable means of alignment. I know that using the calipers to measure offset was just a WAG to get close. Glad to see the 612 getting some love. Happy New Year and looking forward to what you bring us in 2024.
Nice work Keith. I have heard of Tucite the use and application. Never seen it installed. You make the process look easy. Not saying it is. I can see you certainly have experience with it. Alot of the things you do Keith, you can't see being done anywhere else. I think the tail stock is going to be very nice.👍👍 Thanks for sharing the process. Have a great day. Happy New Year.
If it was my lathe, I would have added the turcite to the separation line between the base and the upper. As long as the keyway was still engaged this could have been a steel .030" shim.
Turcite wears longer than the original cast iron. Leaving the ways alone would mean the tail stock will go out of alignment again sooner, than it will with the turcite added.
I agree with the others who would put steel shims between the cricket and the tailstock instead of the Turcite under the cricket. An advantage to doing this is the shim packing can be set so the quill can be made parallel to the bed. If you want to keep from pulling your hair out it is important that the tailstock quill is parallel to the lathe bed and the headstock spindle center line. This fault is noticeable when you are trying to cut several bearing surfaces on a shaft. You end up with a mysterious taper that even if you can get rid of it adjusting the tailstock side to side reappears when the tailstock is moved on the bed. Before doing any of this, get a ground test bar for you lathe spindle. Up through a 4 Morse taper they aren't very expensive (for the ones made in India). If the head stock spindle center line is not parallel to the lathe bed horizontally and vertically you are urinating into the wind trying to do any further fine adjustments to the lathe.
not just the quill... the CRICKET has to be parallel with the headstock. front to back not so bad, but side to side... offset for tapers and its moving up or down. producing hyperboloids rather than tapers... trumpets and barrels. that key has to be at right angles... THEN the quill housing can be scraped to the cricket so its parallel, and co-axial... real daunting task... i know my POS needs doing... its terrible.
I thought that the standard for tailstock alignment used one or more test bars between centers. This allows you to indicate both lateral and vertical deviation between the headstock and the tailstock. A short test bar gets you close then a long test bar tests alignment when the tail stock is farther away from the headstock. It also allows you to determine the thickness of the Tercite shim. If I'm not mistaken Tercite can be scraped in.
Concur as Keith indicated that he'd be scaping in the tercite for height. My only concern was maintaining tailstock to spindle concentric alignment as the tailstock is moved up and down the ways.
I don't think so. The height gain will be LESS than the shim thickness. Keith was using approx. 0.8mm turcite. Sin 45 = 0.707 so gain equals 0.8 * 0.707 = 0.566mm
@@martinsymmons2343 Hmm...I was thinking in the limit if you had a 90 deg profile then the distance between the sides would always be 0 regardless of height gain, so shim thickness must be less than height gain...
@@robertforbes7666 Well, now you are making me doubt my original premise! I reasoned that if the surface is horizontal the height gain must equal shim thickness and if the surface were vertical there will be no height gain (regardless of shim thickness) so any gain would be somewhere between 0 and shim thickness, depending on the included angle of surfaces. HOWEVER, I neglected to consider the effect of maintaining centre line when shimming both sides. So my apologies you are quite right. In this case thickness / sin 45 is correct. My bad 🥴
Adding an even layer on the flat slide and the V slide yields a tilt and lack of contact between the bed and the tailstock. I wonder why not shimming between the 2 parts, not on the slide surfaces. It'll restore the parallel contact of the ways.
I have a question, instead of putting your turn its on the ways, why not put it between the 2 halves? Or even, putting a 0.030 shim between the halves? In no way is this a critique just a question thanks 73 dan
Hey Keith, love the channel. I may be jumping the gun here but I’ll ask anyway. The bottom section of the tail stock. Were those oil lube holes in the base that got covered up?
Hi Keith. Tell me if I'm thinking correctly here. Looking at the wear on the end of that tail stock traverse gear it looks as if it never engaged the lead screw horizontally when new. You might not need to space it out from the tail stock but just mill a flat to mount the apparatus. As far as those worrying about Turcite durability, they must have missed that it's used on new machines quite frequently now. Also, lookin' good there, El Flaco!
As a wear part/revenue stream, i presume? Modern machines rely on their computers to measure and account for accelerated wear and manufacturing inaccuracies. These old manual machines have no such luxuries.
I have a lot of equipment at home in a 16M x 8M shed. There is no way I will ever post a video online of my work as the number of people telling Keith how he should done the job is astounding. I have nowhere the experience Keith has so I would cop even more corrective advice. Hats off to Keith for continuing his projects in the face of all the "expert" comments.
Really good for you. We have to know our limitations. I have never minded asking for help. Weather it comes from a person, Google or the library. Keith is the first to admit we can't know it all eh.
Thanks a bunch Keith. I sure endjoyed this post. You are making the 80's seem they are like they are today and yesterday.
Hi Keith. After an extended holiday, I'm catching up on my youtube playlist(s).
My first observation is you appear to have lost weight; a lot of weight. You are looking good mate.
I myself went from 100Kg (~220lb) to 80Kg (~176lb) in about 6 months, on advice from my orthopaedic surgeon; I had to get weight off my knees.
Losing the weight has certainly made a big difference to my mobility, although I have had to buy new clothes!! Hope your experience has been as positive as mine.
Like I said previously, you are looking really, really good. Well done buddy.
Best wishes.
Harry
Keith, 2 points : 1 - Let's say that you used .030" Turcite. This will raise the flat side of the tailstock .030" ( ignoring the epoxy for now ), and raise the angled ( V groove side ) up .0424". 2 -
Don't you need to drill some oil passage holes through the Turcite ? Thanks, I enjoy your work, Al
Came down here wanting to say the exact same thing.
Hi Keith, I have enjoyed your presentations for the last few years. I am in the process of rebuilding an Australian made 1960's Macson Lathe, and an Australian made Herless ( bridgeport clone) milling Machine. All you show is so relevant to what I need to know. Great to see you trim and fit too.
Keith, a fast and easy way we used to check/adjust tailstock was with mag base indicator mounted on headstock (or chuck) with indicator sweeping the tailstock spindle. Make sure clamp is tight as it changes measurment. Also turcite bad choice for clamping surface; better to shim between castings. Best regards in the new year!
I agree, but i would not use a mag base because of droop. I would put a short indicator holder in the jaws of the chuck and then sweep the inside taper of the tale-stock ram, and make my measurement. The wear of the Turkite is negligible for the use it will get and will not be an issue in our life time. I do love that you are repairing and refitting this older machine. Thanks for the great videos.
Yes, shimming between castings seemed like a much better idea to me, too.
I have no particular expertise in this area buy I too thought he was going to shim between the halves. Was surprised to see the shim go on the surface that contacts the ways. Was the turcite an upgrade to the cast/steel wear surface in addition to obtaining the height addition that was required?
@@chrisarmstrong8198 What I was going to suggest.
Wouldn’t a more proper and accurate way of measuring tailstock height be to use an alignment bar? Concur with the shimming aspect since this tailstock is split. Obviously, Keith isn’t concerned with precision on this machine. Hopefully Keith cleaned the bond line fraying surfaces with some sort of solvent prior to adhesive application. If not, I would have zero confidence in bond line integrity for this job. He must have done it off camera. Hate to be critical of Keith’s work here, but I have 36 years of manned spacecraft high reliability adhesive bonding behind me. I bonded Rulon onto my Hardinge HLVH tailstock after a bedplate regrind to restore alignment. It wasn’t an easy task which is why most, if not all Hardinge rebuilders shim the bedplate. The problem with that is it doesn’t address the tailstock wear. To completely address that, we fabricated an adjustable workholding fixture for the tailstock, machined a calculated amount off the contact surface, bonded the Rulon, machined the Rulon to within about 0.005 of final thickness. This left material for pitch adjustment via scraping. X-axis alignment was achieved by converting the gib to an adjustable type. The result far exceeds the Hardinge factory specs. The machine is no longer a Super Precision HLVH, rather it is an Ultra Precision HLVH. Again, Keith probably isn’t looking for that level of accuracy on this resto, nor does he need it.
I adjusted mine by adding a shim between the top and bottom base castings. That gave me another problem, I couldn't adjust out a taper I was cutting. I later discovered that my quill would lift as much as 0.008 (about the amount I'd added with the shim) when the lock was engaged. It turned out that wear on the quill was allowing it to 'droop,' but it would return to original height when you engaged the quill lock (which is of a different design than the one on this Monarch).
For others that may start checking for misalignment (vertically), I suggest that you do so with the tailstock clamped to the bed, quill extended to where you have it for turning between centers, and the quill lock engaged ... basically having everything as they would be while turning a long part.
I was about to suggest shim stock between lower and upper sections, as well.
The quill “lifting” due to wear would have happened even if you shimmed with turcite at the ways.
Something else for Keith to check as he reassembles his tailstock.
Shimming between the tail stock castings also puts the shim where there is much less regular motion, and much less wear. The ways have motion almost every time the lathe is used.
@@stevenslater2669 I can only guess, but I think the tailstock sat in one spot during the time of it's heaviest use. Lots of center drilling. The wear causes the quill to drop, the lock lifts it back when it is engaged. After taking things apart and cleaning, I did a check (shim removed) with the quill fully extended and locked. It is pretty much the same, along the top, for it's full length of about 9". I'd assumed that the off center condition I'd seen while center drilling was due to wear on the ways to the bed, and shimmed to bring it closer to the center of whatever is chucked in it.
That assumption came back to bite me, suddenly I couldn't adjust things to get rid of a taper I was getting. That little bit of lift of the part center axis, on that end, affected depth of cut along the part, enough that a good bearing fit at the tailstock end turned into "too loose" nearer the headstock (the end where I usually check/set my tool height).
@@edbennett8257 I suspect this lathe spend a long time on a production run, with the tailstock locked in one place. A lot of out and in for drilling being part of that. With 9" of available travel, that would have been easier to do over constantly moving the whole tailstock (it is a really heavy one).
Part of why I call it "The Old Warrior." The location of wear (the cross slide is really worn also) and all the nicks/dings I found. It looks like someone had a chuck come loose on the spindle at one time, and the part and chuck did a violent dance on the bed ... thankfully, not where the carriage rides. And there are the remains of a scotch key on the spindle, I assume put there to prevent such an incident from happening again. Eight years, and I'm still finding battle scars on this one.
Hi Keith I know this is probably going to sound stupid but why wouldn't you raise it up by adding the strip between the two halves of the tailstock .
At around 2:00, Keith adjusts the side to side and around 6:00 when the tailstock seperates, you can see the adjusting lugs hanging down off the top half of the tailstock. If the shim was added between the halves, those lugs wouldn't line up with the holes in the bottom.
Different tailstock designs may allow the shim to be placed in between though, and I agree that may be a better location as then the shim wouldn't be subject to wear.
Andrew
Thanks Andrew i didn't see that when i watched it .@@andrewdalgarno5322
@@andrewdalgarno5322 was wondering the same, would 30 thou difference really be that bad? You could propably widen the holes for the bolts a little to make it fit again.
I wondered the same thing. The flat rises by the thickness of the turcite. The V rises (thickness)/(sin 45) or about 1.4 times the thickness, introducing a tilt that may not matter. I think the reasoning is that since the bottom of the base doesn't fit the flat way properly the oil grooves would be hanging off the side and not lubricate the way properly. The oil grooves in the turcite will keep the oil on the way.
Thanks for the explanations, I was wondering what everyone else was. Makes more sense now.
Martel stock on my 612 has a oil reservoir that feeds down to a hole into those grooves. It looked like yours had the hole also. There is a hole down low that you fill the oil in to the little cup reservoir inside
Great video, I was a laborer at Cincinnati Gilbert, here in Cincinnati. I watched some of the men use tercite on different parts, It was cool how they would do it all by hand in 1977-1979 when I was there up to the strike.
Philmont belt... Classic BSA experience!
I gotta say it, that is a beast of a head stock. And the tail stock aint tiny either.
Thanks for sharing Keith
Why not simply put a .030 shim stock between the two tail stock pieces?
I was looking forward to this episode as I was wondering how I would have approached the issue were I making the same modification. First off I would not have used the center method to establish the height difference between the HS and the TS. I would have turned a very accurate test bar in another lathe, one or two feet long, then mounted it between centers in this machine. Using a dial indicator or a height gauge on the top of the test bar I could very accurately establish the height offset. And if I were using a dial indicator I could also correct the side to side offset. But you said up front that this was a preliminary measurement, and for that what you did was fine. The big problem came in when you applied the mystery material to the V ways. If you apply some .030" material to the flat way you will achieve a rise of .030". But applying it to the V way will give you something in the range of an .040" rise. This may or may not work for you. It was me, I would have taken an entirely different approach. First thing, it is my belief that these tailstocks are individually fitted to each machine at the factory. I would have taken all the tailstock halves to the surface plate and I would have established if swapping halves might or might not result in the height you need. Unlikely but little extra work. If, as is likely, shimming is needed, I would have added the appropriate thickness of feeler gauge stock between the two halves, Yes that offset would also affect the adjusting mechanism but it is my guess that offset would get lost in the general low tolerance requirement of that relationship. Now if the height difference were much more, obviously this method would not work.
Put your slide rule away bud. He's gonna scrape it.
Thank you and Happy holidays Kieth!
Hey Keith. I've been watching your videos for a long time.
Curious why you didn't shim the tailstock casting instead? That's what I did on my mori seiki when I rebuilt it.
Keith, I'm a loyal viewer. I had a enough of a fright when you crossed the lids with the bases of the expoxy that I thought I would support viewer best practices with a comment. Accidently swaping the lids would cause both cans to set up while you store them. So I have a STRONG habit of making sure the lids and the cans are well associated on the bench. I might put a big red dot on the harderner lid and certainly keep them on the outside of their respective cans. Of course I was relieved that you un crossed the lids right back on to the right cans! 20 years of speacity adhesive and composite material work speaking here. Love your channel.
I put metal shims between the top and bottom of the tailstock on my 9" model A Hercus lathe (Southbend 9" clone). Works fine now.
Use an indicator on the spindle to determine the exact value.Use a flat shim between the two parts of the tailstock. Peel apart shim stock is available at Mcmaster with .001 peel offs.
Some cheap paper plates and bowls from the picnic section of the grocery store for mixing epoxy and other chemicals will be the best 5 bucks you ever spent. I buy old silverware such as butter knives from the local thrift store for about 10 cents each and they make incredibly good mixing spatulas--clean with a wire wheel after or just toss em.
I might be wrong but couldn't you shim the tailstock up at the join between the top and bottom so the turcite doesn't wear on the ways.
But the cast iron ways would still continue to wear with use of the lathe. The turcite wears longer than cast iron, so this increases the interval between repairs.
As others noted, wouldn't it be easier to shim the upper and lower halves for height. Scrap the way interface for oil retention; no need to plug your oil holes with epoxy and Turcite.
Happy New Year
why not add a shim between the to half on the tail stock?
Curious as to why you did not put the turcite between the top and bottom halves, leaving the ways alone.
You are experienced, so will have factored into your scraping plans that using the same 30 thou. turcite on the v-way as on the flat-way has rotated the tailstock base. FYI for others : because the turcite strips applied to the 2 v-way surfaces are at an angle to the horizontal (45° assuming a 90° v-way) they have a greater vertical depth - the side with the v-way has gone up by 1.4 times the 30 thou. added (sqrt(2) is approx. 1.4) which will introduce edge-only contact areas along the 3 way surfaces. This will be partly disguised by the epoxy along those edges having been squeezed away by the rotated weight of the tailstock base. About 10 thou. would need to be scraped from the entire surface of both v-way turcite strips to remove the rotation that has been introduced. Alternatively, the edges of all 3 turcite strips where excessive contact has been introduced will need more scraped off to widen the turcite contact areas with the metal way surfaces.
Yes. I was thinking along these lines as well however the plastic will cold flow to maximize contact area on its own but using different thickness turcite would minimize fitting in. However the original machining of the tailstock would had to accommodate the same geometry and this is overthinking the problem
I wish you and your family a Happy New Year.
Always a pleasure to see another of your videos.. Thanks
My question is why don't you put the shins on the top half of it that doesn't slide???
Why can’t brass shims be installed between halves of tail stock ? Love watching your channel
The cast iron ways on the underside of the tail stock are worn. They will continue to wear with continued use of the lathe. Turcite wears less than cast iron, so the tail stock will stay in alignment longer. Swimming the two halves does nothing to slow the wear rate of the ways.
I have heard that using Turcite on a tailstock offers clamping issues. I will be most interested if this is the case once you complete the job and try some high strength applications like drilling large holes etc. You are looking good. happy new year
I was going to use Turcite and was advised against it for this reason and that it will squeeze out when clamped
If this was a major concern, I'm sure Keith wouldn't be using this product. He is a machinist after all. But, if you have concerns, then don't do it, go a different route. Cheers :)
@@Ham68229 I agree with you. Keith said in the video that he had done this before, so I am sure he is confident in the repair. The more important question is why dont all of these "experts" watch and listen to the video befor they comment?? Drives me crazy!!!!!
@Ham68229 Have to keep in mind he's a hobbyist (with a near unlimited budget), NOT a machinist, which is cool--just dont want people thinking this is how a professional would do it.
@@joshuavanmeerveld7230 Except he is a machinist at the museum he works at. Might want to do some research about the facts, he's stated that numerous times throughout his youtube history.
Should have taken the unit apart and cleaned the surfaces before the measurement, then put a collet in your head stock holding a piece of round bar. blue the end of the round bar and bring your tailstock center up against it. Turn the head stock and it will inscribe a circle on the end of the round bar- your height difference is half the diameter of the circle.
You seem to always know everything. Why aren't you down there doing it for him. I am sure he would appreciate an "expert" in his shop!!!
@@paulcopeland9035 No- I just know how to adjust the center height on a lathe- I'm sure if you knew how, you would have posted too.
Thanks for the Christmas Card. Loving the progress on this lathe, although also excited to see the 10EE
I have no doubts about Keith making this adaptation work just fine.
Lean and mean machine shop instructor. Looking Great Keith!
just wondering why the spacer adjustment was not made between the top and bottom half. that would have left the way contact as is,,,
Awesome as Always... Cant wait to see the Chips fly on this..
Good morning Keith. Have a great weekend!
How important is it to open up the oiling holes in the casting and allow oil down into the oil grooves you cut?
I use a certified test bar and DTI to align tailstock centers, as I often move the tailstock alignment when machining long tapers. Obviously the relative heights would not normally change but simply measuring vertically would achieve perfect alignment on the vertical axis.
Always something fascinating to read in the comments on stuff like this- I'm looking forward to the next video to see how this thing mates up!
So what's important, for matching tailstock to center of lathe chuck? Thanks Keith for getting that understanding started
I saw the dent in your left hand ring fingernail….must have been some serious cussin there!
Great video Mr Rucker!
I've used several lathes over the years that were out like the one you have. We almost never turned parts between centers. At that time I didn't know about trucite.
Interesting project...thanks for sharing!
For vertical lift, why not just shim between the 2 piece's of the tail stock?
Thanks for sharing.
Thank you, Keith
Why would you not put the Turkite between the top and bottom pieces instead of on the bottom of the bottom piece?
Hi Keith. Nice clean editing on this one, very well done :)
Happy holidays.
This works but why not make the height adjustable with super fine set screws between the halves just like lateral adjustment? Or just shim the upper to lower halves?
Well done as usual
This machine is going to be great !
Why not shim between the 2 halfs?
That is going to be a GREAT addition to the lathe when done.
Because the side to side adjustment screws would not line up with the threaded ears...
I know that will work for some, but it may not work for all.
The chisel/cutters made for linoleum block printing would be perfect for cutting those oil grooves. Available at any arts and craft store.
Impressive as always,great video.very nice job.👍👍👍😎😎😎
Thanks Keith.
When you mix two components epoxy... Don't use the same stick for the hardener that you used for the resin. The hardener will be contaminated.
True, I've even ruined epoxy by setting the hardener cap close by the open can of resin. It just needs a sniff of the hardener to go off.
He used opposite ends of the stick, for the resin and catalyst.
Won't the epoxy affect the thickness of the turcite
Tailstock alignment tool. Ground bar that will fit all the way thru the spindle hole. Make sure its straight. Drill the end to center on the tailstock. Then cut off that section making in about an inch. Face off both cut faces. Now you can chuck the long bar up and indicate it in. Hold the one inch piece and bring the tail stock forward . Now you can see which way the tail stock is misaligned in seconds. Allowing you to easily use shim stock for different lenght jobs in minutes. Heck you should be able to not only measure but feel and see the difference.
Awesome belt btw!
Keith, you have done an amazing job of restoration on this machine. It looks like new except for one thing... There are two small tubes, likely for oiling, that look like worms. Please, straighten them out. They have been beaten up it would seem. Such a perfect job everywhere else and then.... those tubes. Nice job in the turkite. Have a healthy, peaceful and prosperous New Year.
Awesome project :)
silly question but why not add the appropriate spacing between the upper and lower halfs of the tailstock where you could just machine it out of a piece of steel?
The cast iron surfaces will just continue to wear. Adding turcite to the ways will substantially reduce the wear rate, lengthening the time interval to the next time the tail stock would need attention
i understand that, but 1/4"-1/2" of turcite seems awfully extreme and would reduce a lot of rigidity in the tailstock @@vandalsgarage
Nice simple way to take up the wear happy Xmas to Keith and family
Hey Keith, I just remembered a high school printing project requiring carving linolieum with a tool which got used to print an image. Well, some the carving is done with a V - shaped tool which I think would make very nice grooves in Turcite! Progress!
I bought a Speedball linoleum cutter set after also doing it in junior-high-school! ['64(?)]
Still have the two color print blocks for a hornet I did in class.
Good job
Why not just shim between the top and bottom section?
Happy New Year Keith. Hope you and your family have a Blessed New Year!
Keith, it looked like the oil feed hole on the flat side of the way was in a spot that's going to hang off the bed way. How are you going to get oil in your narrowed pattern? Or should I just wait for the next video?
Morning Keith, great video, the turcite should get you back track for the elevation of the tailstock. You probably have already a small oil groove leg on the flat side that when you finished up had not been put in yet. Wanted to be sure you had all of them prior to assembly. 🙂
Thanks for sharing.
cool dose scrapping work the same way on that material?
This was very interesting. I knew on an academic level how this was done, but the specifics of how thin the turcite was, how well it would stick to the surface, how you would handle V ways, and the actual practical application have been a little bit of a mystery to me. I have experience here in our shop using Moglice wayliner, but that is a liquid that is poured in place. We've probably used 20 or 30 gallons of it over the last 25 years which is a pretty big number when our application only uses a 250 gram kit at a time. I can see the advantages of both methods.
Noticed your philmont belt , i made three treks.
Will putting the same thickness if turcite on the flat and the V way not amount to different heights?
I had the same thought. If the Turcite is 30 thou thick, then the V way side will be raised up about 42 thou, and the center will be raised up about 36 thou. In the scraping process I'm sure Keith will check the alignment of the centers and if indeed the tail center is higher than he wants he can scrape Turcite on the V way down to suit.
I know turcite can be scraped but in order to achieve a level tailstock where the horizontal adjustment does not have a vertical impact we have root 2 x thickness to contend with. Perhaps he is still a bit low and can add some shim to the flat way.
Keith, you're looking very well.
The weight loss makes you look younger.
Enjoyed the video.
Happy New Year. 🎉
Good
Hey Keith. Hope Christmas went well for you and yours. In the last video when you said that the centers of the spindle and tailstock looked to be out of alignment by about half an inch and you were talking about using Turcite to shim up the base, I started to think you'd slipped a gear somewhere. After watching this video I realized that the half inch was either misspoken or you were taking into account the lateral mismatch as well. Either way, what we saw here was WAY closer than that. Some have mentioned using precision setup bars to align the two, but you've done enough lathe setups on this channel that I wasn't worried about you coming up with a good, usable, acceptable means of alignment. I know that using the calipers to measure offset was just a WAG to get close. Glad to see the 612 getting some love. Happy New Year and looking forward to what you bring us in 2024.
Nice work Keith.
I have heard of Tucite the use and application.
Never seen it installed.
You make the process look easy.
Not saying it is.
I can see you certainly have experience with it.
Alot of the things you do Keith, you can't see being done anywhere else.
I think the tail stock is going to be very nice.👍👍
Thanks for sharing the process.
Have a great day.
Happy New Year.
If it was my lathe, I would have added the turcite to the separation line between the base and the upper. As long as the keyway was still engaged this could have been a steel .030" shim.
Turcite wears longer than the original cast iron. Leaving the ways alone would mean the tail stock will go out of alignment again sooner, than it will with the turcite added.
I agree with the others who would put steel shims between the cricket and the tailstock instead of the Turcite under the cricket. An advantage to doing this is the shim packing can be set so the quill can be made parallel to the bed.
If you want to keep from pulling your hair out it is important that the tailstock quill is parallel to the lathe bed and the headstock spindle center line. This fault is noticeable when you are trying to cut several bearing surfaces on a shaft. You end up with a mysterious taper that even if you can get rid of it adjusting the tailstock side to side reappears when the tailstock is moved on the bed.
Before doing any of this, get a ground test bar for you lathe spindle. Up through a 4 Morse taper they aren't very expensive (for the ones made in India). If the head stock spindle center line is not parallel to the lathe bed horizontally and vertically you are urinating into the wind trying to do any further fine adjustments to the lathe.
not just the quill... the CRICKET has to be parallel with the headstock.
front to back not so bad, but side to side... offset for tapers and its moving up or down. producing hyperboloids rather than tapers... trumpets and barrels.
that key has to be at right angles...
THEN the quill housing can be scraped to the cricket so its parallel, and co-axial...
real daunting task... i know my POS needs doing... its terrible.
I wish you and your family a Happy New Year. Greetings from Germany.
Keith - what is the boss in the lower casting? Front LH corner. Round boss.
Using the same thickness shim on both the flat surface vs the 45 degree surface results in the flat side be raised less than 45 degree side.
I thought that the standard for tailstock alignment used one or more test bars between centers. This allows you to indicate both lateral and vertical deviation between the headstock and the tailstock. A short test bar gets you close then a long test bar tests alignment when the tail stock is farther away from the headstock. It also allows you to determine the thickness of the Tercite shim. If I'm not mistaken Tercite can be scraped in.
That seems appropriate for horizontal alignment. But to Keith’s point, it matters a lot less with vertical.
Concur as Keith indicated that he'd be scaping in the tercite for height. My only concern was maintaining tailstock to spindle concentric alignment as the tailstock is moved up and down the ways.
The hight gain on a flat surface is different then on a 45 dgrs surface. Now it leans over.
Absolutely right! If the vee way is 45 deg's each side then the height gain will be sin 45 * shim thickness.
@@martinsymmons2343 I think thickness / sin 45
I don't think so. The height gain will be LESS than the shim thickness. Keith was using approx. 0.8mm turcite. Sin 45 = 0.707 so gain equals 0.8 * 0.707 = 0.566mm
@@martinsymmons2343 Hmm...I was thinking in the limit if you had a 90 deg profile then the distance between the sides would always be 0 regardless of height gain, so shim thickness must be less than height gain...
@@robertforbes7666 Well, now you are making me doubt my original premise! I reasoned that if the surface is horizontal the height gain must equal shim thickness and if the surface were vertical there will be no height gain (regardless of shim thickness) so any gain would be somewhere between 0 and shim thickness, depending on the included angle of surfaces. HOWEVER, I neglected to consider the effect of maintaining centre line when shimming both sides.
So my apologies you are quite right. In this case thickness / sin 45 is correct. My bad 🥴
Why not shim between the base and top? Seems to be easier
Adding an even layer on the flat slide and the V slide yields a tilt and lack of contact between the bed and the tailstock. I wonder why not shimming between the 2 parts, not on the slide surfaces. It'll restore the parallel contact of the ways.
I have a question, instead of putting your turn its on the ways, why not put it between the 2 halves? Or even, putting a 0.030 shim between the halves? In no way is this a critique just a question thanks 73 dan
Hey Keith, love the channel. I may be jumping the gun here but I’ll ask anyway. The bottom section of the tail stock. Were those oil lube holes in the base that got covered up?
Yes, one of the holes on each side is the oil supply to the groove. Maybe he will drill them later,I hope 🙄
Hi. Teacher, for what reason is gray resin epoxy applied? I would like to know the reason for applying gray resin.
Beautiful job looks nice good job looking good lost some weight keep up the nice work
Keith, you have a Philmont belt on. Have you been there in conjunction with Scouting? It’s a fabulous ranch!
How about using a dial indicator.
BTW any word on the Stoker Engine ?
Interesting
Not one of the maybe 20 manual lathes I've been around had the livecenter point close to the center of the spindle.
Thanks for sharing and Happy New Year to you and your family 😅
Hi Keith.
Tell me if I'm thinking correctly here.
Looking at the wear on the end of that tail stock traverse gear it looks as if it never engaged the lead screw horizontally when new. You might not need to space it out from the tail stock but just mill a flat to mount the apparatus.
As far as those worrying about Turcite durability, they must have missed that it's used on new machines quite frequently now.
Also, lookin' good there, El Flaco!
As a wear part/revenue stream, i presume? Modern machines rely on their computers to measure and account for accelerated wear and manufacturing inaccuracies. These old manual machines have no such luxuries.
Except Keith will be scraping it in.@@derschwartzadder
Or apparently not as I see tonight it lines up fairly well.