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By far the best channel on TH-cam! No stupid music, no talking heads or talking hands, no stupid ramblings. Just clear and concise explanations of every skillful step that keeps you glued. Brilliant. Absolute joy to watch. Very well done. Subscribed! Thank you!!!
@@PhilVandelayI installed a paddle switch for my jog function so I can do forward and reverse. I have been threading away from the chuck, and since I do mostly metric and need to keep the half nuts engaged, the jog paddle switch makes it easy to position the threading tool in the right spot in the undercut.
Out of all the machining/metal working videos I've watched, I've never seen an air powered hand chamfer tool. Very cool, looks great for non critical parts, and no setup! Also you do a great mix of 3d printing where appropriate.
You will be happy to know that the Wago connectors seem to be taking over the world. I use them quite a bit for house wiring in the UK. If you use the correct junction box they become a connection that is permenent and never needs inspection.
(Another excellent vid!) For people considering a VFD, especially thinking of adding one to a brand new lathe, here’s some advice from my own experience. I ordered my brand new lathe with a 3-phase motor on it so I’d be able to use a VFD to get both higher and lower speeds out of it, as well as the convenience of just turning a dial for moderate speed changes without messing with gears. I’d assumed that I could just put the VFD between the lathe and the AC line, like a phase converter, just with variable frequency, but this isn’t at all how they work. Try it like that, put the power button and the VFD will either do nothing or trip offline instantly. A VFD needs to be connected directly to the motor and control _everything_ the motor does: Starting up, running, slowing down, stopping quickly and reversing. This meant that I had to completely rewire the lathe, so the controls, end stops, etc would all connect to the VFD and simply ask nicely for it to tell the motor to do things :-) Figuring out the VFD and rewiring the lathe was a significant PITA. I’m glad I have it set up that way now, but if I had it to do over again, I’d skip the VFD, use the gearbox and just be satisfied with its normal speed range. If you’re buying a new lathe and can’t afford one that has a built-in VFD, unless you have some use case that absolutely needs the higher/lower/variable speeds, just get one with the single phase motor and be happy 😁 If you *are* installing a VFD though, I highly recommend Invertek. They’re more expensive than cheap no-name Chinese alternatives, but their tech support is absolutely top-notch. They know the products inside and out and it was literally the best tech support experience I’ve had with any company selling technical products.
I was actually able to wire this in a way where the VFD is connected to the motor but the AC power input doesn't come directly from the outlet, but goes through the internal wiring of the lathe first so stuff like the emergency stop button still cuts power to the VFD instead of just sending a stop signal. I'm not sure this is possible with every lathe though, the wiring with VFDs can definitely be a pain as you said, as well as programming them. But it gets a bit easier if you've done it a few times
@@PhilVandelay Oh, interesting! On mine, the e-stop is an input to the VFD, it basically applies maximum braking to stop the spindle ASAP. The quick stop is good, but this obviously won’t protect against a problem with the VFD itself. Thanks for the reply!
Great video as always. I really dig the bracket for the controller. I like how it slides in and out so you can work on it. Make adjustments on it and it’s permanent but not permanent. Look forward to your next video.
In case you want to get even more power out of the motor you could use a VFD that puts out 400V (yes they are available with 230V 1~ input). With that you can effectively increase the motor power by the square root of three, so about 2.6kW for your motor at the same increased speed aswell. These small motors can usually be spun up really fast, VEM rates their frame size 80 motors for 13000 rpm max. I believe someone else already mentioned it that the motor in your configuration must be connected in delta, not star as shown in the video. Otherwise there will be quite a performance loss. With a braking resistor in place you should be able to break in less then a second.
If motor have propper 230V/400V windings you get full power with 3-phase 230V output. Only when motor dont have 230V windings then you need step up voltage to 400V.
@@pkuula True. But with 400V available and a 230V Winding you can get even more power. Since the motor can put out constant torque while the voltage/frequency ratio is kept constant. With a 230V VFD and 230V Motor this will usually be 50Hz. With a 400V VFD and a 230V Motor this will be 87Hz. So the Motor can deliver more power at a higher speed(not more torque!).
Yeah, it seems to be very common that even engineers does not understand that you can put field weakening in higher than 50hz if you have possibility to get more voltage.
Excellent video as always. You're never hesitant to tackle the more complex tasks Phil, and always completed to the highest standard we've come to expect from your channel.
Hello, had the same defect on the board of my SC10 a year ago. Two short -circuited IGBT of one motor phase. The original IGBT are no longer available, have not been made for a long time, but there are good newer replacement types. The real reason for the destruction of the IGBT were the smd drivers of the IGBT. The defect on this channel has controlled both IGBT at the same time, which of course leads to their dead. The drivers are in good quality (much better than the no-name in it) by Infineon for a few cents. As a precaution, I renewed all three drivers with the Infineon. The control has been more than 500 hours of operation since the repair Of course, it is too late for you to experience this, now with the VfD and the new engine. ;-)
Hey thanks for the info! Maybe this will be helpful for others who watch this, and in theory everything I did is reversible so I could put it back in its original state if I ever decide to repair the board again
For the speed sensor EMF sensitivity, you might have luck using Cat7 cabling. Unlike Cat5, e, 6, a, cat7 is Shielded, meaning the foil wrap protecting the wires is grounded. It's weird to hear because cat6a also has foil, but as far as I understand that mainly helps to protect the pairs from each other, while 7 it also protects from the world. In twisted pair, both ends are bridged across a transformers and rather than voltage being sent down one or both, the transformer is excited by another winding and that causes power to shift from one wire to the other, creating a negative voltage on one and a matching positive voltage on the other, Each creates it's polarity of an electric field and because the wires are held close, they couple to one another as they shoot down the wire, this keeps them strong. The twist then ensures that any noise they experience is "Common Mode" noise, the same magnetude and polarity on both wires. When it gets to the far end the symmetric signal passes through the transformer and excites an output on another winding, while the common mode hits the transformer and current doesn't flow across it, so it doesn't excite the other winding. The ungrounded foil wraps keep the electric field coupling inside. It's balanced out between the two wires, so it also balances out in the foil, and doesn't extend beyond. But because the foil isn't grounded, common mode noise passes through it. At very high frequencies like we're using with 2.5gig 10gig, 20gig, etc, cross-talk is a big problem, and it's reasonable to put environmental considerations on the engineer laying out the building In both cat6a and cat7 the pairs are individually wrapped, so you could put power down one pair, power to the sensor up another, and then signal plus the corresponding opposed supply voltage down a third pair. You don't need to terminate it, as long as you ground the 5 shielding wraps on both ends. If this doesn't cure it of EMF, then you probably want to build a sheet metal box around the sensor and behind the display, ideally both boxes containing the unsheathed portion of the wires. The same coupling effect can happen in all wires, that's why you want the signal to be paired with it's opposing voltage, so that the opposite polarity of the signal will couple down that wire, strengthening the signal; and why you want both/all legs of a power-carrying cable to be near each other. AC-live couples to AC-neutral, and importantly uncoupled power emits a lot more EMF. Usually you can't avoid running high power wires together, but if you have them separating much anywhere, you might fix some EMF problems by putting those wires together, or even binding them together with cable lacing or zip ties. Low voltage DC shouldn't matter unless it's carrying high frequency data.
Yeah I figured different cables might help a bit, I might try that if I get annoyed enough by it. But there's a lot of other things I don't love about the display so would still prefer to just use something different entirely
Great mod, Phil. I've been planning to replace the wimpy motor on my mini-lathe for a while ('coz its low RPM torque is nonexistent), and your video gives me some good information on VFD tuning and braking. One more project added to the long and growing list.
Nice video! Greate Work! It's great that you went into the important things about the VFD. With some speed displays you have to pay attention to the polarity of the magnet, otherwise nothing will be displayed.
Very nice conversion! I personally would have picked the same motor power but a 1500rpm one, that way you get twice the torque than the one you have there. Torque is more important than speed on these type of machinery. If you need more speed (like finishing passes) you can crank the Hz up on the vfd, you can run these type of motors up to 100hz safely (obviously making sure you don't draw more current than the one is specified on the motor plate).
I guess it's a bit late now since you already changed the panel to get rid of the momentary contact start/stop buttons, but in my experience you can usually configure the inputs of the VFD to change state on the rising or falling edge of the signal which is what you need for a momentary contact. Also Vishay multi turn wirewound potentiometers are very nice for controlling the speed in this kind of application. Great job as always and I really like the channel!
Not with this one, I checked every option in the manual and couldn't see any option for different inputs. But keep in mind this is a cheap chinese VFD with not the greatest documentation so I don't expect much
as an option for a potentiometer with a built in display try ''ebm-papst EC Series Fan Speed Controller for Use with ebm-papst EC Fans, 10 V dc, Infinitely Variable''. I use them on 33 phase fan systems in custom labs at work. It will display output voltage 0-1vdc or a rpm signal from an input. £100 in the UK but a good brand and I,ve never had a failure inn over 50 fitted
Depending on VFD you are using there might be configurable frequency output. Or there can be analog output where u can configure to output voltage referenced to motor RPMs and use some analog or digital volt meter to show RPM or spindle RPMs. And some VFDs digital inputs can be configured to accept push buttons instead of momentary switch.
Yes those chamfer cutters are awesome but the sharp little shards of steel the send flying into ones forearm kinda suck. Nice job on the motor and vfd replacement Phil. You always think things out before you jump in an the finished product shows that.
Hi 👋, I am new to your work shop, I found this very interested, as I have just been given a old metal lathe, though it does work, it has a very old belt and pulley to change the speed, , I am a retired specialist joiner , cabinet maker, and wood turner , I have two wood lathe’s both of which have VFD drivers, but still need a bit more tweaking, Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year, from Phil from the moulin France.
For the speed display, have a look at Kübler. I get them through RS components. The original motor looks like a BLDC type. You may loose some torque at low speeds using the asynchronous motor but you can compensate that by using vector control on the VFD, if it supports it. It may even support closed loop feedback.
3d printing that mount was a good idea. I love using 3d printed parts to enhance my machines. Much quicker to make than overkill aluminium or steel parts.
The most complicated (but also most beneficial) fix for your cheap RPM sensor might be to switch to Clough42's electronic leadscrew kit. I've been running one for a couple of years now and I love it... but it's definitely not plug and play.
What is cheaper and which do you recommend: Buying a lathe that has most of these features an capabilities stock? Buying a cheap lathe and adding all this stuff as you go (or perhaps from the beginning)?
There really isn't a blanket answer for this, it very much depends on what lathes you compare and which features you want. This lathe is perfectly capable right as it comes out of the box, it's just more annoying to use. Most of the stuff I changed or added are comfort features but generally don't really improve the quality of the work (with a few exceptions). This an endless topic though, only advice I can give is get the nicest lathe you can afford.
re: the speed sensor: a as cheap but more time consuming way (though not that much i believe) would be to do it yourself with the provided reed switch and a micro controller type pi pico (4€), and any display you like. i’m sure you find a ready made code example even. once you made one it’ll be portable to all your machines. probably won’t solve electro interferences from the vfd for which you definitely need shielded cables which you gotta connect the shield to ground. good luck!
I use that same RPM Gauge in my Emco lathe. I might be lucky, but I've never had any problems with it, not even a glitch. I don't have a VFD however, which may be a source of interference
Can you set different brake times based on an input (switch)? Might be cool to have one setting be really fast stopping for threading and another for "normal" use that is more conservative.
Hi, maybe some body already told you. You connect motor in "Y", and WFD is output 3ph 230VAC witch correspond on motor connection "D". Also motor normal culling calculated for 2730RPM. If you want use motor lot with variable speed/start-stop need control temperature - connect motor thermal pair to the WFD or instal in box (where you instal motor and WFD) fan. it's just recommendation.
Yes multiple people have said this and I told all of them the same thing, the wiring shot in the video wasn't final, I just didn't expect people to look this closely ;) I changed the wiring later but didn't re-shoot the footage
The motor connected wrong. If you use 1 PH, so you need to connect the motor in delta (triangle) connection for 230v and not a star connection 380-400v. Some VFD's has vector mode for higher torque at low speed. Or in V/F mode increase the voltage in lower frequency, but you need to be careful.
I suspected someone would comment this, you're right of course but the wiring in the shot you mean wasn't final, I changed it later but didn't bother to re-film it. This VFD does have vector control and I tried both modes but didn't seem to make a huge difference, but I also have no way to really measure torque output so it's very subjective
@@PhilVandelay To see the difference torque on low speed it's enough just stop the motor by a hand at 5-10RPM (0.5Hz, or less). In VF mode easy to stop it. In vector mode maybe you cant even stop it. Now you have a big reduction ratio, so stopping the spindle will give you a very subjective sense of torque (as you mentioned)
@@PhilVandelay yeah it will work this way 230v on the 400V windings but you lose some torque , the vfd is compensating a lot of this.But its hard on the vfd if you keep it running like this.And its just good practice to connect the motor the right way because if you don't do this on 400V supply voltage the motor is gone ;)
02:04 I could make the same board for 399€ instead. Jokes aside, using a VFD is the most sensible thing than a custom (it looks custom anyways) control board. I wonder why they went that route, to sell more replacement parts?
Thanks for the video Phil. It was very timely for me as I am in the process of changing my VFD for another that has the external braking resister. I have a 1.5KW 3 phase async motor and will order the same VFD as you (1D5) but was wondering size of resister you are using. From my research it looks like I need a 250W 50 ohm resister but wanted to see what you have as our application is quite similar.
I used a 300w 400ohm resistor which I think is what Sako suggests for this model. I was able to find a list once for the recommended resistor specs for their different VFD models but I can't find it again for some reason. On Aliexpress you can also find resistors specifically for their units. Informational resources for these things are unfortunately hard to come by but that's the price you pay for getting a very cheap VFD. The documentation is also somewhat sparse so there might be bit of trial and error involved figuring out what some of the parameters do but overall I still can definitely suggest this VFD considering the cost/performance ratio.
I am almost sure that you could wire up a "TURBO" switch (another one of those covered toggle switches like the on/off uses, maybe make the LED on the end blink for extra style points) using the other inputs of the VFD that would switch the frequency to that 'overclocked' setting. I am not 100% sure on this, but I think you can have it so that it won't spin the motor until you turn the RPM knob back down to "low". That way you won't accidentally overspin a part, since you would have to turn the RPM down to even get the motor to work.
Having a drive isn't as big a step forward as a DRO, but it's close. 😀 If I can offer a small input, long-winded refers (indirectly) to the weather condition and so has the same I sound as gewinde.
I guess this is another case where the wrong pronounciation is fairly common because I've definitely heard the other version a lot (probably why I picked it up). Anyway, I'll keep it in mind for next time!
A cheep hand-held tachometer (RPM meter) costs about $40. Might be worth gutting one and fixing it to the lathe. They're usually for automotive use, and optical (needs a black band with a bright spot to measure), and very quick to respond.
If you end up finding a better solution for rpm readout, will you please make a post about it? I'm in the process of adding that exact display to my mill, and I suspect I will be equally as frustrated with the drawbacks as you are. On a related note: how did you terminate tiny (26 AWG?) wires? They were too small for any ferrules I had, so I wound up folding the end of the wire back to "double it up". I'm hoping it holds up over time. Great video btw.
Yeah don't get me started on those flimsy wires. It's like trying to connect hair to something... I soldered most of them to other cables and then shrinkwrapped but even that gets tricky, and it's really hard not to rip them apart when removing the insulation. Just one of the many annoyances with this product. I'm afraid I don't have a good suggestion how to deal with them, they should have used proper wires in the first place. Come to think of it, maybe those wires actually worsen the interference problem.
@@PhilVandelay - get a set of the crimp on ferrules and the proper 'squishers'. They make life SO much easier when dealing with small wires, and they're really inexpensive.
I've had all the parts to do this to my lathe for a few years now (procrastination due to it still working!!). Mine is about 45 years old, so still runs a single phase motor. All the speed is adjusted via belt and gear changes (super annoying). As for the tach, have you tried shoving all the wires through some copper braid, then grounding ONE end of the braid? If it's picking up spurious EMF that should kill it all off.
Your VFD might be able to do 3 wire control, that uses the momentary start and stop push buttons to control the machine. That makes it easy to use your existing push buttons. With the switches, you will want to make sure if you have a power failure, the lathe cannot restart when power is restored without switching off first and then back on. If the lathe can restart if the switch is still on, that can be dangerous.
Oh nice another desk video coming soon? this is the first time I'm excited about another add of the standing desks. Since I've watched your desk video I've been tinkering about ways to improve my own standing desk by adding a back structure to support display,speakers and other gadgets similar to the one you have created. Unfortunately I don't have access to a workspace and nice tools to build something custom so I was fantasizing on a rig made of extruded t-slot aluminum profiles. Only a couple of days ago I've discovered that Corsair produces a standing desk using the same principles. I now only need to figure what actual profile to order (maybe 4080?) and a clean and sturdy way to fix the assembly to my table. What kind of improvements did you had in mind?
Hi 👋 speed read out, RS components, so quite a few speed controls, not sure how much you want to spend, but this one is €144, and the model number is, XBH1AA0R4 , I think I’ve copied it down right hope this can be some help, I’m looking for a similar device myself Phil from the moulin.
@@PhilVandelay VFD puts out lot of high frequency noise which is bad for electronics close by. Best to shield the noise source rather than protect everything else.
There can still be a residual charge in the capacitors in the VFD so you should wait 5 minutes before you touch anything metal (you could still get a shock even with nothing connected)
Esa electrónica necesita aire fresco, sería mejor ponerla en un armario con ventilador y la resistencia de frenado al aire. Con tanto calor en poco tiempo tendrás averías en tu variador de frecuencia. Saludos.
Hey man, I don't think the Original motor is that special. It looks like a synchronous AC motor with an Encoder for position/speed feedback. These are quite common and using the Encoder is not mandatory. However, It could be a bit finnicky to get the motor to run well with a jellybean vfd... You should definitely keep that original motor though!
Yeah it's not super exotic but definitely not as common as the one I replaced it with. I'll keep this around for sure, if only for the fact that my mill uses the exact same one, so I have a replacement if I need it. But what's a "jellybean VFD"?
It's a shame you switched out all the switches and had to hack the front plate. Your VFD actually supports all the same inputs you had there, you can look up 3 wire on/off control and the speed jog buttons can be done using the other open DI inputs. Otherwise great vid and watching this has made me more confident in repowering my small Mill/lathe combo which should be a million times better than the single speed and multiple pulleys it currently has.
Are you sure you're talking about this same exact VFD? I spent hours reading the crappy manual but I could not for the life of me figure out a way to make it work with the inputs I had. But as I said in the video, I actually prefer the new controls
Great video as always Phil. Hoping that you and all your viewers remember the truth/reason for the season: "..behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born *for you* a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" [Luke 2 v10-11] Have a great CHRISTmas everyone.
Wago Klemmen bitte nicht einfach so mit Kabeln aus feinem Draht verwenden! Die Dinger können einen sicheren Halt und Kontakt nur bei Verlegekabeln (1 dicker Draht) oder gecrimpten Kabelenden garantieren.
Also mir wurde mal genau das Gegenteil gesagt, nämlich dass gecrimpte Kabel in Wagos nichts zu suchen haben. Es steht übrigens sogar auf der Wago-Website dass Feindrähtige Kabel explizit erlaubt sind: www.wago.com/be-de/verbindungstechnik/verbindungsklemmen-221
@@PhilVandelay There are 195 countries in the world. Many of my tools are CHICOM (communist Chinese ), I totally admit that . I believe in being direct .
Enter "import lathe" in a search engine and see what you get as results. The term is ubiquitous, and when used without further qualifying attributes it is almost universally used as meaning "cut-price lathe imported from Asia". But you know that well, don't you, and were just being obnoxious about it, am I right?
@@rseichter There is a significant difference between Japanese , Taiwanese and ChiCom machine tools . I totally admit that many of my tools are Chinese, and I think it’s important to be direct and state it, rather than using a politically correct euphemism such as “import”, which I think is derogatory towards quality imported tooling .
@@AndySomogyi"Imported" obviously does not mean "low quality" and people who equate these terms are fools. I own an imported mini lathe of Chinese providence myself, and it was built to specifications defined by the importing company. If the importer only pays for junk, because the end customer can only afford junk, then junk is what is produced. The manufacturer could of course provide higher quality, if it was paid for. All this is to say that the adjective "imported" is not something I consider derogatory.
Thanks to Flexispot for sponsoring this video!
Check out their Premium Standing Desks here: bit.ly/3ToJXhs (Affiliate Link)
You can use the Promo Code "YTB30" to get a $30 discount on all orders over $500!
No Europe link ?
@@bobdickweed Now that you mention it, there should be one!
By far the best channel on TH-cam!
No stupid music, no talking heads or talking hands, no stupid ramblings.
Just clear and concise explanations of every skillful step that keeps you glued. Brilliant.
Absolute joy to watch. Very well done. Subscribed!
Thank you!!!
If your drive does it, a jog (i.e. momentary on) switch is great for threading.
The VFD Actually has a jog function, this is a great idea!! Might also be useful for indicating and other stuff.I think I'll add this
@@PhilVandelayI installed a paddle switch for my jog function so I can do forward and reverse. I have been threading away from the chuck, and since I do mostly metric and need to keep the half nuts engaged, the jog paddle switch makes it easy to position the threading tool in the right spot in the undercut.
Converted my drill press to a 3ph with VFD, and have provisions for this. Makes tapping really easy.
Out of all the machining/metal working videos I've watched, I've never seen an air powered hand chamfer tool. Very cool, looks great for non critical parts, and no setup! Also you do a great mix of 3d printing where appropriate.
You will be happy to know that the Wago connectors seem to be taking over the world. I use them quite a bit for house wiring in the UK. If you use the correct junction box they become a connection that is permenent and never needs inspection.
(Another excellent vid!)
For people considering a VFD, especially thinking of adding one to a brand new lathe, here’s some advice from my own experience.
I ordered my brand new lathe with a 3-phase motor on it so I’d be able to use a VFD to get both higher and lower speeds out of it, as well as the convenience of just turning a dial for moderate speed changes without messing with gears.
I’d assumed that I could just put the VFD between the lathe and the AC line, like a phase converter, just with variable frequency, but this isn’t at all how they work. Try it like that, put the power button and the VFD will either do nothing or trip offline instantly.
A VFD needs to be connected directly to the motor and control _everything_ the motor does: Starting up, running, slowing down, stopping quickly and reversing.
This meant that I had to completely rewire the lathe, so the controls, end stops, etc would all connect to the VFD and simply ask nicely for it to tell the motor to do things :-)
Figuring out the VFD and rewiring the lathe was a significant PITA. I’m glad I have it set up that way now, but if I had it to do over again, I’d skip the VFD, use the gearbox and just be satisfied with its normal speed range.
If you’re buying a new lathe and can’t afford one that has a built-in VFD, unless you have some use case that absolutely needs the higher/lower/variable speeds, just get one with the single phase motor and be happy 😁
If you *are* installing a VFD though, I highly recommend Invertek. They’re more expensive than cheap no-name Chinese alternatives, but their tech support is absolutely top-notch. They know the products inside and out and it was literally the best tech support experience I’ve had with any company selling technical products.
I was actually able to wire this in a way where the VFD is connected to the motor but the AC power input doesn't come directly from the outlet, but goes through the internal wiring of the lathe first so stuff like the emergency stop button still cuts power to the VFD instead of just sending a stop signal.
I'm not sure this is possible with every lathe though, the wiring with VFDs can definitely be a pain as you said, as well as programming them. But it gets a bit easier if you've done it a few times
@@PhilVandelay Oh, interesting! On mine, the e-stop is an input to the VFD, it basically applies maximum braking to stop the spindle ASAP. The quick stop is good, but this obviously won’t protect against a problem with the VFD itself. Thanks for the reply!
Great video as always. I really dig the bracket for the controller. I like how it slides in and out so you can work on it. Make adjustments on it and it’s permanent but not permanent. Look forward to your next video.
In case you want to get even more power out of the motor you could use a VFD that puts out 400V (yes they are available with 230V 1~ input).
With that you can effectively increase the motor power by the square root of three, so about 2.6kW for your motor at the same increased speed aswell.
These small motors can usually be spun up really fast, VEM rates their frame size 80 motors for 13000 rpm max.
I believe someone else already mentioned it that the motor in your configuration must be connected in delta, not star as shown in the video.
Otherwise there will be quite a performance loss. With a braking resistor in place you should be able to break in less then a second.
If motor have propper 230V/400V windings you get full power with 3-phase 230V output. Only when motor dont have 230V windings then you need step up voltage to 400V.
@@pkuula True. But with 400V available and a 230V Winding you can get even more power. Since the motor can put out constant torque while the voltage/frequency ratio is kept constant. With a 230V VFD and 230V Motor this will usually be 50Hz. With a 400V VFD and a 230V Motor this will be 87Hz. So the Motor can deliver more power at a higher speed(not more torque!).
Yeah, it seems to be very common that even engineers does not understand that you can put field weakening in higher than 50hz if you have possibility to get more voltage.
Excellent video as always. You're never hesitant to tackle the more complex tasks Phil, and always completed to the highest standard we've come to expect from your channel.
Hello, had the same defect on the board of my SC10 a year ago.
Two short -circuited IGBT of one motor phase.
The original IGBT are no longer available, have not been made for a long time, but there are good newer replacement types.
The real reason for the destruction of the IGBT were the smd drivers of the IGBT.
The defect on this channel has controlled both IGBT at the same time, which of course leads to their dead.
The drivers are in good quality (much better than the no-name in it) by Infineon for a few cents.
As a precaution, I renewed all three drivers with the Infineon.
The control has been more than 500 hours of operation since the repair
Of course, it is too late for you to experience this, now with the VfD and the new engine. ;-)
Hey thanks for the info! Maybe this will be helpful for others who watch this, and in theory everything I did is reversible so I could put it back in its original state if I ever decide to repair the board again
For the speed sensor EMF sensitivity, you might have luck using Cat7 cabling. Unlike Cat5, e, 6, a, cat7 is Shielded, meaning the foil wrap protecting the wires is grounded. It's weird to hear because cat6a also has foil, but as far as I understand that mainly helps to protect the pairs from each other, while 7 it also protects from the world. In twisted pair, both ends are bridged across a transformers and rather than voltage being sent down one or both, the transformer is excited by another winding and that causes power to shift from one wire to the other, creating a negative voltage on one and a matching positive voltage on the other, Each creates it's polarity of an electric field and because the wires are held close, they couple to one another as they shoot down the wire, this keeps them strong. The twist then ensures that any noise they experience is "Common Mode" noise, the same magnetude and polarity on both wires. When it gets to the far end the symmetric signal passes through the transformer and excites an output on another winding, while the common mode hits the transformer and current doesn't flow across it, so it doesn't excite the other winding.
The ungrounded foil wraps keep the electric field coupling inside. It's balanced out between the two wires, so it also balances out in the foil, and doesn't extend beyond. But because the foil isn't grounded, common mode noise passes through it. At very high frequencies like we're using with 2.5gig 10gig, 20gig, etc, cross-talk is a big problem, and it's reasonable to put environmental considerations on the engineer laying out the building
In both cat6a and cat7 the pairs are individually wrapped, so you could put power down one pair, power to the sensor up another, and then signal plus the corresponding opposed supply voltage down a third pair. You don't need to terminate it, as long as you ground the 5 shielding wraps on both ends. If this doesn't cure it of EMF, then you probably want to build a sheet metal box around the sensor and behind the display, ideally both boxes containing the unsheathed portion of the wires.
The same coupling effect can happen in all wires, that's why you want the signal to be paired with it's opposing voltage, so that the opposite polarity of the signal will couple down that wire, strengthening the signal; and why you want both/all legs of a power-carrying cable to be near each other. AC-live couples to AC-neutral, and importantly uncoupled power emits a lot more EMF. Usually you can't avoid running high power wires together, but if you have them separating much anywhere, you might fix some EMF problems by putting those wires together, or even binding them together with cable lacing or zip ties. Low voltage DC shouldn't matter unless it's carrying high frequency data.
Yeah I figured different cables might help a bit, I might try that if I get annoyed enough by it. But there's a lot of other things I don't love about the display so would still prefer to just use something different entirely
Great mod, Phil. I've been planning to replace the wimpy motor on my mini-lathe for a while ('coz its low RPM torque is nonexistent), and your video gives me some good information on VFD tuning and braking. One more project added to the long and growing list.
Thanks Phil for a great video. It is a very worthwhile upgrade to your lathe. Excellent machining and commentary.
Phil, I marvel at the diversity of your knowledge in your videos. Fantastic work again!
my exact thoughts
Yet another fantastic video, thank you. Your enthusiastic attention to detail is staggering.😊
HAH you're one of the few creators who can make the sponsor's advert roll interesting. Now repurpose the desk as a bike lift :)
Such an interesting video. Your solution and attention to detail is to be commended. 👏👏👍😀
Very nice mod. More off the shelf parts and greater flexibility sounds like a win to me.
Nice video! Greate Work! It's great that you went into the important things about the VFD. With some speed displays you have to pay attention to the polarity of the magnet, otherwise nothing will be displayed.
Very nice conversion! I personally would have picked the same motor power but a 1500rpm one, that way you get twice the torque than the one you have there. Torque is more important than speed on these type of machinery. If you need more speed (like finishing passes) you can crank the Hz up on the vfd, you can run these type of motors up to 100hz safely (obviously making sure you don't draw more current than the one is specified on the motor plate).
Looks very clean! This is the first time I've seen your channel, and if most things are like this experience, I'll stick around. Subscribed.
Oh man that was awesome. Enjoy your lathe, looks good
I guess it's a bit late now since you already changed the panel to get rid of the momentary contact start/stop buttons, but in my experience you can usually configure the inputs of the VFD to change state on the rising or falling edge of the signal which is what you need for a momentary contact. Also Vishay multi turn wirewound potentiometers are very nice for controlling the speed in this kind of application. Great job as always and I really like the channel!
Not with this one, I checked every option in the manual and couldn't see any option for different inputs. But keep in mind this is a cheap chinese VFD with not the greatest documentation so I don't expect much
as an option for a potentiometer with a built in display try ''ebm-papst EC Series Fan Speed Controller for Use with ebm-papst EC Fans, 10 V dc, Infinitely Variable''. I use them on 33 phase fan systems in custom labs at work. It will display output voltage 0-1vdc or a rpm signal from an input. £100 in the UK but a good brand and I,ve never had a failure inn over 50 fitted
Sorry typo. 3 phase and 0-10vdc
Depending on VFD you are using there might be configurable frequency output. Or there can be analog output where u can configure to output voltage referenced to motor RPMs and use some analog or digital volt meter to show RPM or spindle RPMs. And some VFDs digital inputs can be configured to accept push buttons instead of momentary switch.
Yes those chamfer cutters are awesome but the sharp little shards of steel the send flying into ones forearm kinda suck. Nice job on the motor and vfd replacement Phil. You always think things out before you jump in an the finished product shows that.
Hi 👋, I am new to your work shop, I found this very interested, as I have just been given a old metal lathe, though it does work, it has a very old belt and pulley to change the speed, , I am a retired specialist joiner , cabinet maker, and wood turner , I have two wood lathe’s both of which have VFD drivers, but still need a bit more tweaking, Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year, from Phil from the moulin France.
I put a Hitachi vfd on my clausing lathe and Bridgeport mill 25 yrs ago - worked good
For the speed display, have a look at Kübler. I get them through RS components. The original motor looks like a BLDC type. You may loose some torque at low speeds using the asynchronous motor but you can compensate that by using vector control on the VFD, if it supports it. It may even support closed loop feedback.
3d printing that mount was a good idea. I love using 3d printed parts to enhance my machines. Much quicker to make than overkill aluminium or steel parts.
The most complicated (but also most beneficial) fix for your cheap RPM sensor might be to switch to Clough42's electronic leadscrew kit. I've been running one for a couple of years now and I love it... but it's definitely not plug and play.
What is cheaper and which do you recommend:
Buying a lathe that has most of these features an capabilities stock?
Buying a cheap lathe and adding all this stuff as you go (or perhaps from the beginning)?
There really isn't a blanket answer for this, it very much depends on what lathes you compare and which features you want. This lathe is perfectly capable right as it comes out of the box, it's just more annoying to use. Most of the stuff I changed or added are comfort features but generally don't really improve the quality of the work (with a few exceptions). This an endless topic though, only advice I can give is get the nicest lathe you can afford.
re: the speed sensor: a as cheap but more time consuming way (though not that much i believe) would be to do it yourself with the provided reed switch and a micro controller type pi pico (4€), and any display you like. i’m sure you find a ready made code example even. once you made one it’ll be portable to all your machines. probably won’t solve electro interferences from the vfd for which you definitely need shielded cables which you gotta connect the shield to ground. good luck!
Nice job Phil
This is my favourite christmas movie
Hello, good job 👍
Where did you find the small pneumatic grinder? Would it be possible to have the reference?
Thanks in advance
I use that same RPM Gauge in my Emco lathe. I might be lucky, but I've never had any problems with it, not even a glitch. I don't have a VFD however, which may be a source of interference
I have a bandsaw remarkably similar to that one.
Just got done doing some minor repairs to it.
Yeah they are very common. Great machines for the money, I've done a lot of mods to mine
I do enjoy watching overkill...
Can you set different brake times based on an input (switch)? Might be cool to have one setting be really fast stopping for threading and another for "normal" use that is more conservative.
Yeah I think that's possible, I remember seeing something about different brake times in the manual
Hi, maybe some body already told you. You connect motor in "Y", and WFD is output 3ph 230VAC witch correspond on motor connection "D".
Also motor normal culling calculated for 2730RPM. If you want use motor lot with variable speed/start-stop need control temperature - connect motor thermal pair to the WFD or instal in box (where you instal motor and WFD) fan.
it's just recommendation.
Yes multiple people have said this and I told all of them the same thing, the wiring shot in the video wasn't final, I just didn't expect people to look this closely ;)
I changed the wiring later but didn't re-shoot the footage
@@PhilVandelay but in real life you can create new one video with measuring of power with different connection, its bee really good video.
I used a taper lock pulley, they are much more secure on the shaft.
Brilliant 3D printed VFD mount.
love vfd out one on a 3 phase mill
The motor connected wrong. If you use 1 PH, so you need to connect the motor in delta (triangle) connection for 230v and not a star connection 380-400v.
Some VFD's has vector mode for higher torque at low speed. Or in V/F mode increase the voltage in lower frequency, but you need to be careful.
I suspected someone would comment this, you're right of course but the wiring in the shot you mean wasn't final, I changed it later but didn't bother to re-film it. This VFD does have vector control and I tried both modes but didn't seem to make a huge difference, but I also have no way to really measure torque output so it's very subjective
@@PhilVandelay To see the difference torque on low speed it's enough just stop the motor by a hand at 5-10RPM (0.5Hz, or less). In VF mode easy to stop it. In vector mode maybe you cant even stop it.
Now you have a big reduction ratio, so stopping the spindle will give you a very subjective sense of torque (as you mentioned)
@@PhilVandelay yeah it will work this way 230v on the 400V windings but you lose some torque , the vfd is compensating a lot of this.But its hard on the vfd if you keep it running like this.And its just good practice to connect the motor the right way because if you don't do this on 400V supply voltage the motor is gone ;)
@@kevinvrijsen5169 As I said in my comment, I did rewire it weeks ago, I just didn't film it
02:04 I could make the same board for 399€ instead. Jokes aside, using a VFD is the most sensible thing than a custom (it looks custom anyways) control board. I wonder why they went that route, to sell more replacement parts?
Thanks for the video Phil. It was very timely for me as I am in the process of changing my VFD for another that has the external braking resister. I have a 1.5KW 3 phase async motor and will order the same VFD as you (1D5) but was wondering size of resister you are using. From my research it looks like I need a 250W 50 ohm resister but wanted to see what you have as our application is quite similar.
I used a 300w 400ohm resistor which I think is what Sako suggests for this model. I was able to find a list once for the recommended resistor specs for their different VFD models but I can't find it again for some reason. On Aliexpress you can also find resistors specifically for their units. Informational resources for these things are unfortunately hard to come by but that's the price you pay for getting a very cheap VFD. The documentation is also somewhat sparse so there might be bit of trial and error involved figuring out what some of the parameters do but overall I still can definitely suggest this VFD considering the cost/performance ratio.
I am almost sure that you could wire up a "TURBO" switch (another one of those covered toggle switches like the on/off uses, maybe make the LED on the end blink for extra style points) using the other inputs of the VFD that would switch the frequency to that 'overclocked' setting. I am not 100% sure on this, but I think you can have it so that it won't spin the motor until you turn the RPM knob back down to "low". That way you won't accidentally overspin a part, since you would have to turn the RPM down to even get the motor to work.
that 3D printed bracket is a nice solution
Having a drive isn't as big a step forward as a DRO, but it's close. 😀 If I can offer a small input, long-winded refers (indirectly) to the weather condition and so has the same I sound as gewinde.
I guess this is another case where the wrong pronounciation is fairly common because I've definitely heard the other version a lot (probably why I picked it up). Anyway, I'll keep it in mind for next time!
"I know you like watching overkill"
As they used to say in my favorite TV program: Anything worth doing, is worth overdoing!
Look for optical rpm meters. Emko sells some that accept basically any source of a 1-10000hz signal.
nice lathe and upgrade!
Servus, welche Frequenzumrichter wurde verbaut ? Danke Gruß Florian
A cheep hand-held tachometer (RPM meter) costs about $40. Might be worth gutting one and fixing it to the lathe. They're usually for automotive use, and optical (needs a black band with a bright spot to measure), and very quick to respond.
Nice Build, das einzige, was noch fehlen würde, sind Aderendhülsen.
Where did u get the motor and vfd. I have a 1100watt lathe and I'm looking at a motor replacement.
If you end up finding a better solution for rpm readout, will you please make a post about it? I'm in the process of adding that exact display to my mill, and I suspect I will be equally as frustrated with the drawbacks as you are.
On a related note: how did you terminate tiny (26 AWG?) wires? They were too small for any ferrules I had, so I wound up folding the end of the wire back to "double it up". I'm hoping it holds up over time.
Great video btw.
Yeah don't get me started on those flimsy wires. It's like trying to connect hair to something... I soldered most of them to other cables and then shrinkwrapped but even that gets tricky, and it's really hard not to rip them apart when removing the insulation. Just one of the many annoyances with this product. I'm afraid I don't have a good suggestion how to deal with them, they should have used proper wires in the first place. Come to think of it, maybe those wires actually worsen the interference problem.
@@PhilVandelay - get a set of the crimp on ferrules and the proper 'squishers'. They make life SO much easier when dealing with small wires, and they're really inexpensive.
Put a little round input ac volt meter in the free hole.
I've had all the parts to do this to my lathe for a few years now (procrastination due to it still working!!). Mine is about 45 years old, so still runs a single phase motor. All the speed is adjusted via belt and gear changes (super annoying).
As for the tach, have you tried shoving all the wires through some copper braid, then grounding ONE end of the braid? If it's picking up spurious EMF that should kill it all off.
Your VFD might be able to do 3 wire control, that uses the momentary start and stop push buttons to control the machine. That makes it easy to use your existing push buttons. With the switches, you will want to make sure if you have a power failure, the lathe cannot restart when power is restored without switching off first and then back on. If the lathe can restart if the switch is still on, that can be dangerous.
I haven't found any options in the manual to control it any other way than this unfortunately, it wants a constant signal
Oh nice another desk video coming soon? this is the first time I'm excited about another add of the standing desks.
Since I've watched your desk video I've been tinkering about ways to improve my own standing desk by adding a back structure to support display,speakers and other gadgets similar to the one you have created.
Unfortunately I don't have access to a workspace and nice tools to build something custom so I was fantasizing on a rig made of extruded t-slot aluminum profiles.
Only a couple of days ago I've discovered that Corsair produces a standing desk using the same principles. I now only need to figure what actual profile to order (maybe 4080?) and a clean and sturdy way to fix the assembly to my table.
What kind of improvements did you had in mind?
Hi 👋 speed read out, RS components, so quite a few speed controls, not sure how much you want to spend, but this one is €144, and the model number is, XBH1AA0R4 , I think I’ve copied it down right hope this can be some help, I’m looking for a similar device myself
Phil from the moulin.
Hmm that’s one nice welding table you have there.
The fact that your lathe for its size has the feeding bar separate from the lead screw is a big plus. Where did you buy it ?
Sieg SX-10, the thing is that it's not as small as it seems to come across in the videos, it's a decent size machine in terms of work capacity
Hallo, eine Liste der verbauten Teile wäre super.
re. load spike, sounds like your vfd needs shielded cables to motor and some ferrites.
I was thinking the display needs shielded cables instead
@@PhilVandelay VFD puts out lot of high frequency noise which is bad for electronics close by. Best to shield the noise source rather than protect everything else.
Where can I get parts for a lathe?
There are tons of cheap VFDs with the ability to read rotary encoder output. It's often not stated in the description.
But that is not the spindle speed
why does it say "danger 5mins"? on the VFD?
There can still be a residual charge in the capacitors in the VFD so you should wait 5 minutes before you touch anything metal (you could still get a shock even with nothing connected)
Don't you need to put a resistor between a digital input and GND?
Why would I? Nothing about that in the manual and it works fine.
You mean a pulldown resistor. Good devices should have them built in.
I'm just about to do the same conversion, how many kw is your motor ?
1.5
@@PhilVandelay Thank you.
No such thing as overkill, just a guaranteed way to get it right the first. 🤣🤣
Esa electrónica necesita aire fresco, sería mejor ponerla en un armario con ventilador y la resistencia de frenado al aire. Con tanto calor en poco tiempo tendrás averías en tu variador de frecuencia.
Saludos.
Could run the old motor with a VESC.
Hey man, I don't think the Original motor is that special.
It looks like a synchronous AC motor with an Encoder for position/speed feedback.
These are quite common and using the Encoder is not mandatory.
However, It could be a bit finnicky to get the motor to run well with a jellybean vfd...
You should definitely keep that original motor though!
Yeah it's not super exotic but definitely not as common as the one I replaced it with. I'll keep this around for sure, if only for the fact that my mill uses the exact same one, so I have a replacement if I need it. But what's a "jellybean VFD"?
@@PhilVandelay "jellybean" means something like "gibts wie sand am meer". Meaning very common and cheap and nothing special/sophisticated.
36 times "vfd" not to bad 🍻🍻🍻
Why not build your own speed controller with something like an ESP32 and an LCD screen.
High RPM on a lathe always scare me when i am in front of it.
It's a shame you switched out all the switches and had to hack the front plate. Your VFD actually supports all the same inputs you had there, you can look up 3 wire on/off control and the speed jog buttons can be done using the other open DI inputs. Otherwise great vid and watching this has made me more confident in repowering my small Mill/lathe combo which should be a million times better than the single speed and multiple pulleys it currently has.
Are you sure you're talking about this same exact VFD? I spent hours reading the crappy manual but I could not for the life of me figure out a way to make it work with the inputs I had. But as I said in the video, I actually prefer the new controls
I love how you melted those electrolytic capacitors when changing those mosfets.
I did what now?
Great video as always Phil. Hoping that you and all your viewers remember the truth/reason for the season: "..behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born *for you* a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" [Luke 2 v10-11] Have a great CHRISTmas everyone.
😀👍👍👍
Wago Klemmen bitte nicht einfach so mit Kabeln aus feinem Draht verwenden! Die Dinger können einen sicheren Halt und Kontakt nur bei Verlegekabeln (1 dicker Draht) oder gecrimpten Kabelenden garantieren.
Also mir wurde mal genau das Gegenteil gesagt, nämlich dass gecrimpte Kabel in Wagos nichts zu suchen haben.
Es steht übrigens sogar auf der Wago-Website dass Feindrähtige Kabel explizit erlaubt sind:
www.wago.com/be-de/verbindungstechnik/verbindungsklemmen-221
Wagos erlauben beides. Ich bevorzuge aber auch gecrimpte Kabel in Wagos.
I bent my wookie.
This sounds like a buisness oprtunity for Marco Reps.
By “Import” lathe , do you mean Swiss , German, British, Polish, Czech, Romanian ???
Lots of countries count as “import “
In most cases, especially with machine tools, when people say this they mean China, I figured it was obvious
@@PhilVandelay There are 195 countries in the world. Many of my tools are CHICOM (communist Chinese ), I totally admit that .
I believe in being direct .
Enter "import lathe" in a search engine and see what you get as results. The term is ubiquitous, and when used without further qualifying attributes it is almost universally used as meaning "cut-price lathe imported from Asia". But you know that well, don't you, and were just being obnoxious about it, am I right?
@@rseichter There is a significant difference between Japanese , Taiwanese and ChiCom machine tools .
I totally admit that many of my tools are Chinese, and I think it’s important to be direct and state it, rather than using a politically correct euphemism such as “import”, which I think is derogatory towards quality imported tooling .
@@AndySomogyi"Imported" obviously does not mean "low quality" and people who equate these terms are fools. I own an imported mini lathe of Chinese providence myself, and it was built to specifications defined by the importing company. If the importer only pays for junk, because the end customer can only afford junk, then junk is what is produced. The manufacturer could of course provide higher quality, if it was paid for. All this is to say that the adjective "imported" is not something I consider derogatory.
Nice upgrade Phil. I have the strange feeling I might have to do the same on mine one of these days 🫣