The London Heritage Railways That Were Never Meant To Be: Why Not?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- Heritage Railways to many are synonymous with the countryside, although there have been 2 railway lines in London that were meant to see a conversion to heritage railway operation, but weren't converted in the end. Why not? In this video I'll be covering why they weren't, the history of these two railways, what prompted the suggestion for them to be and whether or not heritage railways in London are at all viable. If you liked this video, please make sure to like, subscribe and share this video as it massively helps me out when you do. Now, on with the video...
As with most of my videos, there are images in here that aren't my own, and all copyright goes to their respective owners.
Massive thank you to Stanley and Laurencepro99 for providing me with footage for this video!
Check out Laurencepro99's channel here:
/ @laurencepro99
Copyright SomeNorthLondoner 2024 - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
I’ll pin this just before people comment about my pronunciation of “Plaistow”
Plaistow near Stratford and Plaistow near Bromley are pronounced differently. Plaistow near Stratford on the H&C and District is pronounced “Plahstow”
The lesser known Plaistow in Bromley is pronounced “Play-stow” as per:
- This www.clinkhostels.com/city-tips/things-even-londoners-struggle-to-pronounce/#:~:text=8.-,Plaistow%20(play%2F%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8Bstor%20-%20plar%2Fstoh),Go%20figure.
- This iBus announcement th-cam.com/video/cYxqq7ABHds/w-d-xo.htmlsi=n6tJklHIuJkuaxC8
Just to clear things up. In my last vid I pronounced it the East London way and was corrected 😅
Doesnt help that Plaistow on the District is not too far in stops from Bromley By Bow
They are both pronounced the same. Both are said as Plahstow. Ibus gets Plaistow Grove correct but then gets Plaistow Green incorrect.
@@jay38a1 Well I'm just going off what was above and from what I've been told.
I have heard both pronunciations are acceptable though, just going off Play-stow as that at least distinguishes between Plaistow in East London versus Plaistow in South East
Nope I live very near Plaistow (bromley) and it is play-stow
@@LordEverythingtrainsGood to know I’ve pronounced it correctly then haha
As an American, our heritage lines are very different. We don’t have passenger service between stations on the lines, except on a few. It is typically a ride from a station to a runaround point and back. I am a huge fan of British heritage railways, though.
There was also an effort in the late 1990s to convert Addiscombe station in south London into a heritage museum. By then, the Croydon Tramlink would've used most of the branch to Woodside, with a short stub of unused railway remaining. There was an island platform, a couple of sidings and a carriage shed at Addiscombe - ripe for preservation! In the end this never went through as the local authority earmarked the station for housing, and the site was demolished in 2001.
Thank you so much for telling me this
This was meant to be the third one I would be reviewing, but I could NOT see anything about it online when I looked for it researching this video (I have had this idea since January or so, so wrote Addiscombe down in January and picked it up again recently)
So I definitely wasn't dreaming then haha
About North Woolwhich. I believe a company called RailSchool was supposed to be involved somewhere, edit looked at the website on webarchive and there is a bit of information about there involvement in North Woolwich. They did have two diesels which included Class 50 033 and 73130. 73130 is now at the EKR. Also before the 313s took over they where run using Bulleid profile 2EPB, of which the Sole Survivor did run on this line (there a picture of 2EPB 6307 at Silvertown)
What would b great would be to have decent connections to Epping-Ongar (let them extend to Epping), and to the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre (Chiltern services to Quainton Road station). At present it's easier for Londoners to visit the Bluebell, East Kent, Mid-Hants, or Rother Valley Railways!
IIRC Epping Ongar cannot extend further into Epping as I believe the stretch to Epping is part of a nature reserve?
I think there will always be a fascination for heritage whether in cities or in the countryside, and while the countryside does add an extra element of enjoyment to a heritage railway experience, but people will still take some interest in an urban heritage railway of some form - I'm looking for example at Mail Rail and the various London Transport Museum 1938 stock special services.
Definitely there is some fascination for urban heritage railways like the 38 stock days are really popular but that’s more down to the experience of using old trains I’d say, which for the most part is for enthusiasts. In the countryside you’ve got steam locomotives and more of an experience as you’re catering to more people and a broader market rather than solely enthusiasts.
I didn’t include the MailRail in this video on purpose but that is about as close (I would say) to an urban heritage railway line as it gets in London at the moment. Ruislip Lido not so much but still a good railway nonetheless!
IF the concept of London Overground had come along before Silverlink , and there lack of investment in services and reliable trains I think that the North Woolwich Rail service may still have been in existence on a 15min service, and indeed that modified to tunnel to join with the South Eastern Lines at Woolwich area and links to Thamesmead. Track Sharing with the Jubille could have been considered which would give space for the DLR to serve more intermediate halts - the loss of the through link to north east and north london entailing a change at stratford is a pain. ( What would have happened to Crossrail - I think that would have run Whitechapel-Canary Wharf - Beckton(Excel for LCA) Beckton (Gallions)-Barking Riverside - Abbey Wood (or similar) This would have left space for the North Woolwich Heritage using bits of the Silvertown Tramway. ( Note I make a distinction between Hertitage Services and Hertitage Railway Locations / Operating Centres ) Southall could have worked, along with some of the lost lines of the Croydon Area, Should the Watford Local Line have gone to Heritage Status ?
I’m not too sure really regarding the loss of links to North London, a lot has changed since the cutback of the NLL to Stratford such as the ELL being introduced which from West Ham and Canning Town is just the JLE or SSLs to reach it. You also have the JLE which was introduced before the cutting of Silverlink back to Stratford and that gets you to Finchley Road far more frequently and quicker than Silverlink
Much of the Croydon lines were amalgamated into Tramlink. I’m really not too sure on whether or not they would’ve continued to North Woolwich if TFL had taken it on before, the DLR is a clear winner in regards to frequency and takes people where they want to go (City, Stratford). It did feel a bit like a line to nowhere with the line to North Woolwich, not a whole lot at the end of it 😵💫
@@somenorthlondoner Still a pain from getting From Canning Town to Highbury Corner which was the daily travel (and avoided Zone 1).
@@highpath4776 Not really, think of how much more frequent Canning Town to Stratford and Stratford to Highbury is than pre-1999
It was proposed by a now defunct railway preservation group in the 1990s to run excursions on the Brentford branch
Great Western Railway Preservation Group/Southall Railway Centre. They eventually closed a couple of years ago.
I love heritage railways. I live right by the Watercress Line in Hampshire, and it’s one of my favourite spots!
It's a nice railway tbf. Might review it soon!
It would be nice to have a sanctuary steam railway near me. Nice video.
Cheers :) wouldn’t we all love one haha
There's the Postal Railway that is partially a heritage Railway now.
I purposefully left this and Ruislip Lido out because they are operational heritage railways (this video is about railways that were tipped to become heritage railways but didn’t) and neither have operated passenger services before unlike the vast majority in this country
I would like to see both these bits of railway track passed over to London Overground and given a 15 minute service interval.
I also think that any isolated bits of track in South London should be converted from third-rail to overhead electrification, as a matter of course. We have a number of trains in the London area that can work with both forms of electrification and we need to slowly push out more and more overhead electrification, until we get to the stage where the big bits of railway start to be converted over to overhead electrification.
Yes there have been some proposals relating to converting DC into AC, this was proposed I believe with the CrossCountry electrification programme where Basingstoke to Southampton was meant to become AC IIRC
North Woolwich to Custom House is already under TFL as part of the Lizzy Line. Not sure on how much merit there would be in passing GP to Bromley to TFL though
I should think completing the Kent loop, between Ebbsfleet and Ashford, for services from St Pancras would be a good start. Then, the lines within the loop could be converted.
The Alexandra Palace branch line might have made a good heritage line but most of that is now a footpath. The Nunhead-Crystal Palace High Level branch might have been a candidate at one time but has now been substantially built over. Elsewhere, in Leicester, extending the GCR towards city centre and in Cheltenham extending the GWR towards the town may be more likely runners than any heritage route in London.
I imagine if the GCR and GWR were extended into their respective towns/cities that it might be more popular for them to be reopened as passenger railways?
@@somenorthlondoner Yes, true. In London possible heritage rail routes are either very short (e.g. Aldwych branch or the Addiscombe branch) or have been all or partly obliterated (e.g. Mill Hill East to Edgware). Maybe a narrow gauge or miniature railway in one of the parks would do as an alternative?
You mention the Spa valley railway. That is one which needs to be reconnected to the Uckfield Line. It is a a very badly served part of East Sussex and West Kent. And has no place as a tourist branch line. Thanks for rest of the info though 😅
Yes I should imagine if Uckfield to Lewes reopens then I highly doubt the plans would just be for London Bridge to Brighton services via Uckfield. I suspect there would be ambitions to connect the line with the rest of the Southeastern network, and you would be right in saying that unfortunately Tunbridge Wells West to Eridge might lose out. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the SVR is a nice railway nonetheless, although is probably the most likely (in my opinion) for reconversion to passenger service.
What could happen with Spa Valley Railway / Twerps? Perhaps locos and some people transfer to building a Bluebell Southern Extension - or work out a viable route East Grinsted-Tunbridge Wells ? OR Uckfield/Lewis ?
What do you mean re SVR? I cannot see railway alignments that didn't previously exist being built on, but what I was talking about re SVR in one of the final segments was if Brighton ML 2 is constructed that chances are TWW to Eridge would become part of it and the SVR would have to close as a result. Definitely not a set in stone project though
A really interesting topic - I had no idea that such plans wee ever considered. I assumed that London escaped Beechings Axe because the London commuter lines were still mostly highly profitable - even the weak links maintained rider numbers that outstripped bigger lines in the provinces. Furthermore, the cost of land in London was too high for TfL or another government service to just give it away.
That said, I strongly disagree with your conclusion: a branch line run as a heritage railway would be a great tourist attraction if it were close enough for all of the 8 million Londoners to visit without spending a day travelling to and from its remote countryside location. You might lose a little of the "tea and cricket on the village green" aspect of the heritage experience but railways and steam are grand heavy engineering so placing them in an industrialised cityscape would have merit. I would imagine that local councils would be willing to use zoning and planning permissions to enhance the sights and experience and to milk the tourist wallets.
The railway itself might be in a more solid financial position as well since they could provide a legitimate transport service for a small number of locals - at a premium ticket price or with a select number of more reasonably priced season tickets for runs outside the tourist peak.
I might be moved to suggest that the Greenford branch line down to West Ealing would be ideal. It is just a 15 minute run with a low ridership between a Central Line station to the north and an Elizabeth Line stop at the south end so it is easy to get to. The trackway needs to be kept in order for occasional reroutings and parliamentary trains and it runs though a pleasant leafy suburb with some decent views. The three intermediate stations on the line could each be done up in 'heritage drag', perhaps focusing on a different era for each and Castle Bar Park in particular, at the mid-point seems perfect to be reimagined in tourist-friendly victorian kitsch and become an attraction in its own right.
Perhaps this could also work for the Dudding Hill line, that some people have suggested re-opening to passengers from the new Brent Cross West development to the Old Oak Common HS2 etc complex. Since there is plenty of HS2 land around Old Oak Common a suitably ostentatious tourist destination could be constructed as the southern terminus and riders would be rewarded to a good long run past an industrial area featuring WCML, Chilton main line, Grand Union canal and then right through Gladstone Park (a classic Victorian open space) and on to the Midland mainline to the shiny new Brent Cross development. As a standard commuter route there are questions about its utility and profitability but as a destination in its own right I think it could be a money-spinner - and we get a (lower frequency and higher priced but much more fun) transport connection as well! I wonder if they would be allowed to run the occasional steam train down the MML right into Kings Cross during the high tourist season?
I'm not too sure really, I think if London had railways with the potential to be converted to heritage railways then I think it would be best to assess their usefulness as standalone railways first. There are traffic problems within London that are becoming evermore problematic and so I think we should prioritise providing more capacity to the rail network.
Re West Ealing to Greenford, yes that would probably be the best one although I do wonder whether or not passenger numbers might improve if TFL were take it on. The line isn't exactly enticing frequency wise and like I said with the GP-Bromley line, perhaps that's the reason why passengers seek alternatives such as the E1 and E11 to reach the Lizzy for Central London.
Re Dudding Hill, that isn't just a suggestion and is looking quite likely to open. I doubt a heritage railway would be possible on that line once London Overground services operate down there! There are even questions on how the existence of such a service would impact existing freight movements etc.
On a point of detail, I believe the last section of the North Woolwich branch was singled considerably earlier than you suggest - maybe about 1967-8 when the signalboxes at Silvertown and North Woolwich were removed. It operated as two parallel single lines - one for the passenger service, and one to give access to the North Woolwich goods yard (as long as it survived) and to the Silvertown Tramway, which had a number of industrial connections including a T W Ward scrapyard. Although there's a DLR branch that roughly parallels the route of the Silvertown Tramway, I don't think it actually reuses any of the infrastructure, which anyway had several level crossings.
Oh right, I read that it was during the 80s the line was singled, definitely through the Connaught Tunnel, but you could be right on that. Thanks nonetheless for telling me!
Yeah the DLR uses the railway alignment of the Tramway, except it is elevated!
Excellent video. Heritage tram in London would be nice
Thank you so much! A heritage tram would be nice but I'm not sure where?
@@somenorthlondoner Silvertown tunnel. Instead of bike bus
@@liveevil6386The bike bus is more practical, the idea is for it to move bikes across the tunnel whereas a heritage tram would be more leisure orientated
@@somenorthlondoner Gallions to Barking via a swing bridge over the Roding ? / total conversion of the ELT Bus services to street tram ?
You mention the Brentford Branch at the end, but that was also somewhat part of a preservation attempt I think.
A group called the Great Western Preservation Group based themselves at Southall and had a collection of locos and rolling stock for use on specials on the Brentford Branch, eventually being based in the old Steam Depot. Over the years stock was sold or moved away and the group folded a few years back, but they were sharing a lease with West Coast Railways and Locomotive Services Ltd, who both still use the site as a base for charter operations out of London.
The Bluebell railways is one of the best
Never ridden it before but that's good! :)
Point of order... The Aldwych branch is now locked out, isolated and scotched closed and no trains can now enter it as some electrical equipment has been removed
Yes. I think I made the point in another comment that Aldwych would have been the more realistic one to convert to a heritage railway in the sense that the Aldwych branch had an exclusive platform at Holborn which if it were to ever be converted into a heritage railway (in the extremely unlikely event) then it would be more possible to operate one than out of Charing X from the Jubilee Platforms due to no available exclusive platforms at Green Park. Although neither are possible.
The Northern Heights would be nice.
Yes it would be but depends on what bit. I think it's safe to rule out any of the Parkland Walk but I imagine if Edgware to MHE were to reopen it would probably be more popular for passenger service rather than a heritage railway!
Slightly left field, but the old disused Post Office Railway through central London has a 'heritage service' albeit a short one.
It does and I’ll be making a video on it at some point! But I didn’t include it in this video, like I explained it in another comment, if that’s what you were asking :)
No mention of the Westerham Valley Railway?
They held leases of the stations and had the offer of a lease of the whole line.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westerham_Valley_branch_line
That mostly falls out of London!
I'd suggest that by FAR , the most difficult to reverse to get a line back into use isn't housing, or even road use....
It's if SUSTRANS has got its ☆@♤¥₩@# hands on it!!
I'd be inclined to disagree with you that they are the worst because I have made use of the NCN and in some cases, it makes sense to convert whatever is remaining of a trackbed into a cycleway because it would be unfeasible to attempt to reopen a railway along the alignment for other reasons ie housing, roads, industrialisation.
I'll give you an example. Back in Februrary I cycled from Hemel Hempstead to Hertford North with some mates along what is mostly old railway alignments. Much of the alignments are still in tact and could IN THEORY be converted into railways once again for quite substantial distances. Where the problems arise is when it comes to connecting to rail hubs themselves which would make them useful to reopen.
For example, when it came to Hemel Hempstead to Harpenden, most of it COULD function as a railway once again but where the problems start to arise is that where the Nickey Line ends is about 1 and a half miles from Hemel Hempstead Station and in order to get there you have to go build through residential areas constructed post closure of the railway in 1965...and the Nickey Line starts on a bridge so it would be difficult tunnelling it through the town centre to reach Hemel Hempstead Station and to keep it at the same level on the bridge it would mean pretty extensive destruction to the residential areas that have been built up along the old alignment.
Lines like Aintree to Hunts Cross via Gateacre and Childwall which are largely still in tact as cycle routes might make sense for a reopening but there are so many frequent disruptions by road on the HH to Harpenden stretch of the Nickey Line by industrial estates/main roads/housing that it would make reopening it very difficult without costly purchasing of land occupied by houses/industrial sites/tunnelling over or under main roads. A BCR would never be high enough to be considered re reopening the line.
Then you have some stretches of the NCN such as Aintree to Southport Lord Street which just go through the countryside and unless house building en masse was to ever be considered which would no doubt be quite controversial and that demand wouldn't ever be high enough to justify building a railway along it.
Don't get me wrong, I see your point and there might be some NCN routes that could be justified to become railways again but I think to suggest Sustrans are the biggest problem I would say is incorrect. But each to their own nonetheless :)
@@somenorthlondoner I'm not against most of what you say.
Where I have sadly seen what i say in practice, is where the local residents, councils and even MP's have wanted to actually reopen a line, sometimes when they are DESPERATE as the local economy is suffering by dreadful road congestion etc, SusToss won't even LISTEN to the arguments.
They almost literally stand there with their fingers in their ears twirling round and saying "la la la , not listening la la la".
It was Sidmouth, or Brixham or somewhere round there.
DESPERATE for rail link back. Easily done, even WITH a cycle path possible next to it.
And because they'd had the line for 30 years ..."la la la".
THAT'S what I'm on about.
Disgusting.
@@dancedecker Yes I think going against residents wishes when it's an easy reopening is a little concerning and I would also be quite upset too. Of course whether or not the BCR would justify the reopening is another story but if the BCR was there then yes I agree.
Not that Sidmouth would likely justify one but in more residential/urban areas if a railway was to be slightly too infrequent to create some sort of modal shift then maybe a busway would be more preferable especially if cycling is popular along side alignment? Think Dunstable, Cambridge (despite its woeful construction etc). They'll be schemes I'll be covering in future videos but they have intrigued me
@@somenorthlondoner I would agree.
It may not have been Sidmouth, but it was a fairly large conurbation in Devon, Somerset or Cornwall, from memory. But I could be wrong.
All I'm saying is that, certainly in my experience, once SusBollocks have got a line, they absolutely do NOT let it go, no matter how valid the arguments are.
My logic is simple.
You can put a bike on a train...you can't so easily put a train on a bike!!
I rest my case. Lol.
Agreed. There have been various proposals for light rail schemes using the old Midland route from Bristol to Bath via Bitton. But it was Sustran's first conversion project, back when the organisation was called CycleBag. (Perhaps they should rename it again, if the trans association becomes a problem.) I can't see Sustrans ever letting it being converted back to rail, even if the formation could be widened to accommodate cyclists, walkers and a single track, per Avon Valley Railway. It's the Sustrans crown jewel. Similarly, if Okehampton to Tavistock were to be reinstated (Bere Alston to Tavistock is making steady progress, thanks largely to Andrea Davis and Jamie Hulland at Devon County Council and the gentle, persistent actions of TavyRAIL), then an Avon Valley arrangement would be needed to incorporate the Granite Way between Meldon Viaduct and Lydford. And would let's-get-away-from-it-all Granite Way uses want to be cycling or walking alongside a railway line on the northwestern fringes of Dartmoor for miles on end? On the Isle of Wight, reinstatement of Shanklin to Ventnor is beset with issues, of which shared or rail-only usage is the least of them. There are other proposed reconversion schemes facing similar hindrances, I'm sure. Smallbrook Junction to Newport via IoW Steam Railway is an example of a different but related type of issue, to be discussed elsewhere another day.
0:14 'epping ongar railway from epping to ongar'
nahhh it goes from north weald to inverness
If only haha!
Not the HS2 We wanted, nor the one we deserved. 😂
Driven that headline unit 465162
:)) great to hear!
Until they got their new Class 707s, the Northern City Line was a heritage railway from the 1980s pretending to be a commuter line into London. Reopen Mill Hill East to Edgware as that's out in the sticks anyway.
Not too sure on whether it’s out in the sticks…I think there would be merit reopening it although it would be extremely difficult and the vast majority of it particularly through MHB would need to be tunnelled. Maybe you could reopen MHE to Copthall or something as a heritage railway but it would be quite boring and short and the line side property purchases to build the railway on wouldn’t be worth it
Aldwych branch would make a cool heritage railway. Not at all feasible though.
It would…I think that would be quite fun personally
There is that loop of track from Charing Cross which runs out under the Thames, used for turning round the Jubilee Line trains before the JLE bypassed CX. You'd just need to reopen the JL platforms and run any old stock down from Neasden depot each morning and then just forward and reverse around the loop all day between the two platforms.
A bit dull, though - just dark tunnels . . . unless they could make the under-river tunnel out of glass (and raise it about 30m) Probably better to do something else with the tunnel. Turn it into a velodrome, perhaps. Going round and round buried in a dank, squalid hole seems like an apt metaphor for city cycling. You could even skip the tunnel maintenance too; If the tunnel is actually falling apart and liable to kill you at any moment it would add verisimilitude.
@@benwilliams5457 I highly doubt Charing Cross would be used as a heritage railway. Aldwych isn't used as a turnback facility whereas CHX is during times of disruption. There's also the question of where do you build a platform for that heritage railway at Green Park. At least with Aldwych there is already a platform available for a heritage service to operate to and from at Holborn
:)
Thanks 😃
Crossrail, never Elizabeth Line. Better name than those used for the rebranded Overground though...
Both are fine to use 🤷♀️
THINKING about it, there is one London line I figure could work as a Heritage Rly, this one stretch called The Dudding Hill Line en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudding_Hill_line
Yeah definitely not Dudding Hill, especially as that's meant to form part of the West London Orbital project. That line is also used by freight. If you want a heritage railway it's most likely going to have to be a branch of some sort
@@somenorthlondoner well has there been any progression on said project?..coz I can't seem to find much on the subject
@@NewController01 I actually have a video on my channel about the project if you want to watch that but I think it's safe to say out of all TFL infrastructure projects it'll probably be the most likely to go ahead!