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Will these make EVERY STUDIO sound GREAT? || Dutch&Dutch 8C REVIEW
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2024
- Dutch & Dutch: dutchdutch.com
The Schroeder Frequency: www.soundandvi...
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INDEX:
00:00 - Intro
00:44 - The looks
02:03 - Why?
03:02 - Boundary Coupling
06:58 - Don't cup the speaker!
07:39 - Off Axis response
10:09 - Room EQ Calibration
11:58 - Do you need bass-traps?
12:50 - My opinion
15:00 - Engineer presets
17:29 - Expensive?
18:33 - Disclaimer and thanks
19:06 - Outro
Nice review. Killer speakers. Best I have tested so far. Keep up the good work!
I own these. Best speakers I ever heard. I can't stop listening to music on them. All my mixes translate beautifully on other sources. Worth the investment!! Great review !
They cost more than I earn in 10 years
Can you bypass the DSP and get direct sound?
I just ordered a pair of 8C ! Do you think you need Mixcubes like Auratone with these ones ? Thanks
Hello, how would you compare them against PMC 6-2? Thank you.
Same. I came here to see how speaker cost as house in my country and why and still im not impressed
The fact that you're reviewing these monitors just earned my respect... Most don't even know about these! Cheers man!
Man I've been looking at these for like 2 years now... thanks for making my GAS even more GASSY sir.
In the end it's all about translation to other sound systems. It's perfectly fine to EQ your monitoring system as long as you know the end result will be good on other systems. Sonarworks does a great job for me to eliminate resonant peaks and my mixes really translate well to other systems. But then again, producing oldschool analog colored techno may not be as demanding. I tend to not care too much about the final mix and just have fun producing music.
As a speaker designer (who's speakers you've reviewed) I have to say this is a superb review. Tech details spot on. Love the EQ illustrations and your analogies. Just great work Wytse!
Which speakers did I review?
Oooh, wait! The Little British right? 😱
Thank you for always searching for answers and delivering everything you know, believe in or think. It is always very interesting!
that's a very clever design. a bit on the pricey side, yes. i recently went from NS10s to Frontiers (by Output) and i do have some treatment to cut down on reflections (against a brick wall i have in my studio space)... but here's the thing. when i'm mixing or just listening, i have my db meter app and i never let the level go over -70dB, and that means not a ton of reflections at all, my mixes tend to translate better because my brain isn't being tricked into thinking louder is better. i don't know, it works for me, but yeah just working within limitations and a $3.99 app pretty much helped "fix" any major reflection problems.
Wow, I first thought those are passive radiators on the back, but it's really two woofers. Nice review, very interesting, thanks!
Had these speakers for two years now amazing sound the stereo imaging is like nothing I’ve heard on listening to many different speakers.
Do you think you need mixcubes like Auratone with 8c ?
thanks for this review. I have been seriously considering getting these for a while now.
next try the genelec 8351/61 with the w371 bass stands! (don't forget the essential GLM kit too - you can also attenuate the high frequencies post room eq on these, just like the d&d)
Great review Wytse, I love how you use audio examples to illustrate these complex topics, educational AND entertaining! Unfortunately all I could think about was the dichotomy of how it's supposed to interact with your room so acoustic problems aren't an issue but the people who have acoustic problems aren't the people who have the money to afford a speaker like this. So if you buy this speaker, you are most likely already in a treated room. Hopefully in the future when this technology becomes more commonplace it can also become more accessible to the people who need it the most.
very well explained. i'm from Philippines and i loved your content keep it up
Very cool idea. I'm essentially doing the same thing but manually and with a massive amount of time and learning invested. In fact, the amount of time I have into my system would make the price tag of the 8C make sense and present serious value. My rig doesn't look nearly as sexy though and I'm sure my results are not neck and neck with these.
I think you've misunderstood the design a little bit, its the speakers on the back that create the cardioid pattern, not the grills on the side. We used to run Pa systems like this, or some systems had it build in, like the early Nexo line array subs (Some new D and B subs have it build in).
But you do need to keep the sides free from reflections for it to work correctly, just like you said. Those speakers look awesome, i'd love a pair
I just put my subwoofer in the middle and actualy facing (almost touching) the wall. there is no DIP in the response at all
@@Jaburu Thats because sub waves are so long, that the phase will only be slightly out, at 60hz its a 5 meter long wave. Try 2.5 meters from the wall, you'll hear that
@@lindonpeasley2469 yea, the delay added by a few cm is neglectable. the wall basicly turns into the woofer. I have no clue why this concept is done so rarely. just turn the sub around. it is so easy
No, the speakers on the back are subwoofers and are, indeed, omnidirectional. The vents on the side act are where the cancellation comes from.
@@ErinsAudioCorner So you don't use the subs at the back to create the cardiod pattern? Therefore you use other drivers to create the cancellation, as simply putting vents alone won't work. Can you explain further, i'd like to understand, as the video isn't clear and your comment doesn't help either. www.prosoundweb.com/images/uploads/ABCEndFireFigure10b.jpg
In regards to your preferred lessening of the high frequencies, I always thought your mixes had an 'airy' quality to them, which sounded very 'you' if that makes sense. Maybe due to the less high frequencies in your mix room?
About the so called flat response there's something misunderstood by most engineers. It's that if humans ears listen to each frequency with the exact same amount of volume it won't be percieved as flat because our ears are design to amplify certain frequencies and are less sensible to others. The range around 2khz til 4khz will have a very high volume percieved. The more you go to the bass frequencies and the more the level percieved will be low. That's why I'm always using bassy headphones cause they do compensate our ears sensibility and bring a closer flat response. Especially if there's a dip around 3khz. Very cool speakers by the way and good channel as well. Take care
If the music is mixed to sound "good" on flat speakers or headphones the mix engineer "compensates" for the human hearing by taste. If you then use bass heavy headphones i.e. (not flat) the music will have more bass then the mix engineer intended because he mixed on speakers with a flat response.
@@ScottCervelo it really depends wich music engineer. Most will obviously do like they've been told and few like me will do different. I make my own mix since 15 years, I have mastered few albums from different bands and no one ever complain about too much bass in my mix or even too less. When you do mix on bassy speakers or headphones the trouble you could have is to be a bit weak on the bass side. On speakers or headphones lacking bass it's the exact opposite, you tend to add too much bass. So it's a matter of taste and training. As I said above the real flat response might be bass heavy and it's for me the only way to hear and feel exactly what's going on in the sub range frequencies. I feel it's easier to tweak something you really hear. The so called flat speakers are an illusion. I've seen so many frequency response curves from high end studio monitoring and none of them ever show a flat response. There are always dips and bumps whatever the brand. Some do come close but not perfectly flat. Anyhow I think a flat response would be irritating to work with. The only trick that works it's to know exactly how a good production sound on your speakers and from there you can have good results. That's how I roll
MIXING/MASTERING RULE N° 1:
the difference between the engineer that does great mixes and the one that sits in his car listening to his shitty mix crying - one bought good speakers and the other one bought a car.
And a great room is also important.. And setting your SPL levels correctly
5 million dollar speakers are worth nothing in a shitbox room
This channel is so helpful. Thank you.
Genelec can work in any room with their GLM kit that make speaker correction :) so i think they are also easy to implement in bad acoustic room and they are a lot of cheaper ^^ i think i really prefer to choose genelec 8351b or 8361a for the price of the 8C ^^
Good luck with the Genelec being more accurate than 8c 😄
If you like a more rounded sound up top you should try out the Neumann KH monitors. I used the calibration and loved them in my fully treated room. Translation was great but I always felt I wanted a little extra air up top. Might be perfect for your ears!!
Better buy PSI instead and skip Neumann
Imho the most important message of this video is the fact Wytse mentions what he calls his personal calibration or baseline. Over time every engineer develops a personal reference based on his/her own experience and environment ( speakers /acoustics ). That's why the debate on best monitors will never end. Instant flat response only makes life easier.
Yep...happy with my HEDD 20's
vs kii three? vs ATC?
10k IMO is not much for an active studio monitor. I am an old fart (55) and I bought my Studio Monitor about 25 years ago (a JBL 4425). That thing is a passive speaker and if I remember correctly it was over 4500 DM back then. So if the speaker works the pricepoint is not cheap but fair.
What I really wanted to talk about is your opinion about the high frequency response. You are talking about flat frequencys and that it kills you in the higher frequencys. There is a huge change (like almost 100% chance) that you are absolutely right. This whole ideal of a flat frequency response is to a very high degree total BS. Your ear is way less sensitive to the frequency bumps than it is to distortion. Mesure the frequency response of an amp almost every amp has a completely flat frequency response but compare a tube amp to a transistor and you will right away notice the nice harmonic distortion of a tube (if this is a good thing or not is for another time, the point is that you can spot it right away). Now compare the amount of distortion even of the worst tube amp to a speaker and you will find that a speaker is at least a 10x magnitude worse than the worst amp imaginable.
Now let's imagine for a moment that your speaker has a terrible resonance at 15kHz or above (because 100% of all non horn tweeters have such a resonance) then you don't want to hear it. It will make your ears bleed if you have to listen to it all day long. So what you do is you lower the frequency in that area. Now you feel guilty coz your frequency is no longer flat, but is a resonance from a membrane really a sound information that belongs to the music? No it is not! So what benefit do you get from a flat frequency response in this case? None!
If you have the time then have a look at the frequency response of these old BBC monitors of the 70s like a Spendor BC1 or the Tannoy monitors, their frequency response were bumpy like hell but you would not nesseseraly say that the recordings of the time were bad would you? Sure they were done without all the digital gimmicks like auto tune, compression and these kind of stuff, but they still sound great, at least in my opinion.
Take care m8 - excellent video - and btw I never thought about room resonance and room reflection either but D&D is absolutely right, these are different animals ;-)
Many of the features applied to these can be found in Dr Floyd Toole's book. I agree flat is transparent which is better. I want to hear to hear the track as completed not some old dude or audio brands sound signiture which is usually subjective BS or an excuse for poor acoustic engineering.
That front woofer looks like a dayton audio rs225-4
Would also love to see a review of a more affordable pair like the APS Klasik 2020
I love them. The kii three are the better choice for me mixing at low levels with neighbours.
They create a cardioid subs by adding the low frequencies back, delayed, and 180 out of phase. its how we focus subs for live sound as well. 1/4 wave cancelation.
That’s a different approach, I believe these speakers are based on passive cardioid in their midrange; the subs are of the closed box type; meant to acoustically couple to the back wall.
I have these speakers. I’ve used barefoot MM26’s, ATC SCM25a’s, Proac Studio 100’s, Amphion’s. When it comes to quality of sound replication and resolution, these speakers beat them all. Between these and ATC’s, I’ve never heard better speakers for mixing
Kii Three compared to these and ATC's?
Which amphions did you used?
I would really like to check out you’re REW File... especially the waterfall Diagram.
I think I have that one somewhere…
Me who sees the title: because he's dutch?
All business up front and a party in the back. Just like the Mullet
I liked the the intro.
How do these compare to kii studio monitors?
Thank you very much for the amazing and smart way of reviewing the speakers. Btw I have the same problem with the high frequency and I was thinking that there is something wrong with me haha. You are great and thank you for the content.
I would really do a Dirac Live test for your studio, I have this feeling that you'll love the software and probably keep it, provided you have a measuring mic... The difference it makes in phase and eq are really amazing, a lot more than Sonarworks...
i was waiting for this one
This one vs kii three?
Miccing speakers works but u need a reaally good stereo pair and a really well treated space...fully anechoic and it will work to some extent...u will be listening trouggh something that wont be able fo reproduce the sound exactly if its worse...if u have full range system u should be able to ear the different colorations
I dont thing that fixing the speaker for your preference is a good idear. When you own a headphone or any other piece of audio gear, you really get used to it. After a week or so you really acept it as your standart. As soon as you get a new one it will sound wrong for weeks. I mean shure you can do it, and it certenly is a way to have less stress on you ears, but you are always doing a lot of guesswork in you brain, kind of imagening how it really sounds. You can do it with practice but it is inacurate. And in mastering, where even a 0,5db can be important, thats just a bad idear, and you are making it way to hard for yourself. Just listen to the flat one for some months and i bet you will not change a thing.
Great job! $14K? I'm going to need 250,000 streams on Spotify for awhile... wow.
I was initially confused about the comment about connecting REW with the 8C's, because it didn't seem like I could do that, but it looks like they removed that featured in the 2.0 version of the app. Hopefully they can implement it again, it would save quite a bit of time in setup!
The feature has been brought back a while ago I believe. Make sure you've updated your 8c firmware and REW to the last versions and you should be good to go
@@max8591 I just installed REW a couple of weeks ago when I got the 8C's, so I have the most current version. The FAQ page on the Dutch website currently states "REW integration is not yet implemented in firmware release 2.0. If you wish to use REW integration, you should roll back to firmware version 1.4.65 with the Release Management System, run RoomMatching with REW, then update to 2.0. Your RoomMatching settings will be automatically migrated to 2.0."
@@rocketman374 This info on the website has been outdated since april, which is when firmware 2.1 came out. This brought back REW integration. Check that your speakers are on 2.1. If they are not this is the root of your problem =) Up to date 8c's with up to date REW will definitely work. I've been using it in the last couple of days myself. Let me know if I can help.
@@max8591 man, I wish they'd update their website. The video tutorials are from V1! I currently am running version 2.1.1, so I'll have to go see why REW isn't talking to the 8C's!
@@rocketman374 What exactly is the problem you have with it?
I still like the Bare Foot Mini Stack personally, I still cannot afford them but I agree that monitors and dsp belong together.
I would like a review like that of the genelec 8341 with genelecs sam technology. Since they are more in my price range.
Thanks for the nice review
please review Kii3 then.
I thought i only have to sell my car to get a pair of those but ... I might need to sell my house too.
Great Review!
Its final, a speaker is no longer just a speaker xD
Cool video. is there a chance you will do Geithain RL 901K in future?
hmmm, am i blind or is there no brand/name/model anywhere in the description ?
pls be so kind and send a link to a site where i find more info about these monitors. ty.
Great video! How would they compare to "The Sphere" by Mischa Jacobi that you reviewed? Provided both rooms are decently treated! Thanks!!
You diddn't mention what you think about the sound except the freq adjustment you made, what did you think about it?
Could these speakers be used for normal home hi fi audiophiles listening enjoyment ? Or are they only for Recording Studios ?
Sounds all so nice, but you want to place the speaker from the wall to gain soundstage (if you you understand) so in that philosophy the woofer must be a second kabinet apart from high mid tones. Dampening should not be behind the speaker in that matter. Second thing is, what kind of dac's are used ? what is the quality ? also a big question for the amp. Not to speak of the quality of the drivers ? All things you want to know in my opinion. A cat in the bag bargain ! Better buy a mini dsp room eq with good reviewed 2 way drivers i would think
This new "generation"(?) of speakers is very interesting.
I went with the the Kii Three. Love them. They don't work wonders of course, you need treatment... but damn they sound great.
Indeed, fantastic speakers. Dutch & Dutch also very good!
Nani!?!
Errr... My question is, doesn't our brains automatically correct for moving around the room... So then if you have these, wouldn't it sound weird?
Kii Audio Three - look them up, they are the pioneers (and dutch/german)
Im mixing amd mastering on these sime 2 years. 2 friends already took the plunge after hearing them, especially in pro home studios with low level listening.
Interesting technologies emerging. I’m sure they sound good...And what about your prototypes? They going to eventually be production models?
Yes
Sounds like a great idea. This will not make every studio sound great though, as most audio engineers don't have this kind of money laying around ;)
Thank you for the review. What is also needed in a review is to remove all the parts and actually see what components are being used. There are a lot of very expensive speakers ( including $2000.00 and up ) now on the market and when you look at the enclosure and components being used it's a bunch of junk parts and crappy construction. The devil is always in the details
I’m getting Bose 901 flashbacks right now..
How so? The 901 does the opposite of what these speakers. Unless, that's what you meant. :D
If you don't want to spend the money for bass traps, just buy these absurdly expensive speakers!
whatever you install in your room, you can't fix problems in 100-400hz.
@@tugbars4690 bass traps do not have the same effect a cardioid speaker does. Cardioid changes the entire dispersion pattern. Bass traps can't touch the effect the design these speakers have.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I know, I don't think I said something opposed to what you said. what I wanted to say is that, the solutions that seem to fix room reflection & directivity problems aren't actually working good enough to fix these problems completely. Cardioid is the way.
I couldn't decide whether I should save money and get D&D's or Geithain RL901K though.
Hello! How would you compare them against PMC 6-2? Thank you.
I had the pmc 6-2 for 10 days in my room and hopefully will receive the 8Cs in a week or so. I honestly can't wait
the problem with this is that they can't do nothing to RT60, but anyway, it help a lot
Now I have a very important question since you are from Netherlands! You have to answer this.
Why/How there are sooo many legend "Dutch" DJs/producers born!?
Even more specific, most of them are from the same town… it must be something in the water 🤔
@@Whiteseastudio I'm coming! I need that Holy water.
The room correction is dsp based? If yes, does it add latency? Cause most speakers with this feature add latency and it's really annoying to play keys listening through them.
There is a low latency setting
You came to Rdam and didn't drop by for a coffee??? :P
They came to me 😅
@@Whiteseastudio hahaha, ok fair enough!
Do drop by though if your ever around here!
Good RoboCop reference.
Please check out and review Amphion. Super curious about a comparison between the two.
I wish all phase problems were so easy to hear lol.
Want
I'm the same as you with the highs
Nice!
Most soffit speakers at any price I have ever listened to in any studio are poor in terms of anything approaching critical listening, audiophile or otherwise quality listening. From. $8K to over $400K, I have still never heard a quality listening experience from any soffit mount transducer system. Does anyone know a soffit mount system that actually provides a top quality listening experience?
It’s probably your ears or your brain
As a cofounder of a studio engineering groups in the UK we have studio design and redesign work since the 1980’s. Soffit mounts are part of many of the installs and have gotten better over the years. Pro’s and cons like anything. Generally, more power and impact, reduces early and related reflection issues, and too often poorly done. Recessing midfield and mains is a recipe for mid-fi sound, and unfortunately, the majority of installs are just that. I can’t bad mouth any of the brands we sell and install, but we do explain that soffit mounting is not going to help other room deficiencies and will often make them worse compared to well positioned free standing speakers.
@@isc4915 - i assume that either you’re just trying to be funny, or you don’t know any better. Just in case, here is a reasonable set of considerations of why/why not to go soffit, which I’ve pasted in for your edification.
This is a bit of a large topic, and you will hear varying opinions on the subject. In a nutshell, there are a few advantages and many disadvantages to soffit mounting monitors, as with most issues in this business...
On the Plus Side:
1. You get some additional bass reinforcement below roughly 500Hz from the extension of the speaker baffle (approaching an infinite baffle) when you properly in-wall mount your monitors. This is 6effectively 'free' low end response gain, but in a poorly treated room, or a room under roughly 7 x 10 meters, it can create many new issues, and often does.
2. You eliminate the speaker boundary interference issue with the front wall, as there is no more boundary. The speaker baffle (front wall) is the boundary. Note, that there is still boundary interference from the floor, side walls and ceiling potentially depending on how effective your trapping is on some of these surfaces.
3. When implemented properly you can create good stereo imaging and you can control the focus point.
4. The 'main monitors' will ALWAYS be in the same position!! This consistency is a big plus as you and your clients will become accustomed to the sound of your monitors in your room and it should be a 'constant'... (of course this assumes that your monitors are maintained, and drivers are not blown, and the your cross-overs and amps are NOT accessible to curious and fiddling little fingers... YES, that is the voice of experience recommending that you mount your cross-over and amps where nobody can touch them!).
5. When properly implemented you can have an awesome, large sounding and accurate monitor system with lots of low end and fair to at least good imaging. Note that soffit mounting, like many things, is about trade-offs. No free lunch. Power and possible accuracy, but often reduced imaging and mid range articulation.
6. Clients are very impressed (assuming they sound good).
7. Some monitors are actually designed for this type of installation and won't sound right unless they are (properly) wall mounted. Most soffit mount systems are poorly matched, tuned and implemented at even many top studios, and as such are not their go-to’s for fidelity, but often are for power and impact.
On the Minus Side: (See all of the above)
1. You may not like the extra low frequency from your otherwise well-balanced monitors, and it will bring out MANY room flaws.
2. You are now STUCK with the position of your monitors, for better and for worse.
3. Monitor tuning is very limited, and access to in-monitor tuning controls must be moved to consoles if they exist.
4. The monitors will always be in wrong position!!
5. When done wrong, your reasonably high quality monitors will sound mid-fi or worse!
6. Clients will be impressed, until they leave your studio and say how God awful the main monitors sounded!!
7. Many monitors just sound better in the free-field, and even many designed for soffit mounting are designed based on assumptions that don’t translate to most real world studios, because studio designs vary so widely and soffit mounting is inherently not about flexible tuning.
Actually, for many installations we do very careful and detailed in-wall monitor installations. We try to design allowing for the inevitable nearfield monitors that will be stuck up on the console in the way of the mains.
In most installations, we recommend the client go with free-standing or free-field monitors. The advantages are:
1. The ability to change or positionally or otherwise adjust monitors at will!! (this is a huge practical limitation)
2. The ability to move the monitors around while you 'learn' your room and find the best monitor and listening positions.. (this is my biggest plus point). I can't tell how many times I get paid good money to go to somebody's new studio and move around the monitors until it sounds good!! This is the single biggest thing you can do to improve your monitoring situation in a small/mid sized control room with free-field monitors...
The Northward Acoustics rooms
@@sandramuncelli7976 im not reading all that. I’m happy for you, or sorry it happened
is the dsp frequency correction linear?
Can be linear or zero latency
FWIW, I prefer silk dome tweeters for the exact reason that Whytse like to attenuate the highs-- you still get the highs but its not a titanium piston hammering them through your eardrums. Way less fatiguing.
How much do they sell for?
How much will these things cost???
Not many WSS viewers are gonna be buying these, Mate. Back to the KRK Rokits . . .weep!
its ok ,...nice ,very good.but why not a song ?to see if is productiv to?
Don't have money for these amazing speakers : )
This video was an actual snake oil, not that the speaker don't do what they claim, but there is again this hype about flattness and noone saying anything about transient response which is imho more important and tipically weak in most modern speakers.
Litterally any speaker can be eq-ed, and there is a lot of cheaper dsp speakers with diferent "room cheating systems". Also the off axis thing doesn't quite work as you explained it...
Nothing here says why these speakers are really better than others and why they cost more than others.
I kinda agree, but you missed one major point. It's all about the off axis response. Yes with a DSP you can fix almost everything, but you can only adjust the total output. There is no way to only adjust the off axis response or on axis response, without adjusting the other.
This is why I use calibrated headphones.
Most people are using small size rooms to monitor, monitors need room to breathe or they act like giant badly tuned headphones.
Except...frequency response and impulse response are the same thing. That means a perfectly flat response is a perfect impulse response.
@@m00hk00h So phase is irrelevant?
You can EQ any speaker, sure. But what you fix in one axis is done to all axes. And if the off-axis response doesn't mimic the on-axis response then it's a bad design and no amount of DSP can fix it.
Fuck.. I wanna try those speakers..
To all common knowledge that you cannot pass speaker sound via mic and recording I can say this: If you know your speakers sound and you listen to such recording. You can estimate in your brain the difference os speakers sound. So yes, I would like to hear them as I will be able to approximate that sound signature they give even through my own speakers. I hope this all makes sense. Please, next time, record sound and give us a listen. T. Hanks.
these might be the most expensive near fields I've ever seen
Take a look at the KII THREE....
I own the Kii Three
Strauss electroacustics + amp.
Barefoot atc get up there as well
I do appreciate how painfully 90's this montage felt 😆
Maybe they just sound better! 🤷♂️
you sound dutch yourself, lol
are you?
lekker man
You could use headphones...😉
so its just like the GLM system on Genelec ONE series?
"If you don't want to spend money on basstraps 8C's can really do that" ok, then I spend $14.000 for a pair of these instead 😂
switch in the back ....
Frequency response is one thing, transient response another....
Yeap! I totally agree!
This sounds "like" a speaker equivalent of one of those headphone "room" emulator plugins ....no?
Nope. That would be a plugin that claims it can make your speaker sound like any other speaker. If you translate this to headphone you would get a tiny mic to plug in your ear to adjust the levels of your headphone